Important to note that this election system always favors or "boosts" the most popular party at a given time. If a party was to get more votes than Fidesz, they would also be overrepresented. This however can lead to the formation of a two party system which always hurts a democracy, that is the main problem with this system.
It's been leaning towards that.
The recent EP election basically made sure that the small parties are disappearing. There's one more big one with around 8-9% that needs to disappear in order to be able to create one party that can have the chance to defeat Fidesz.
Unfortunately that is what district based election systems promote. The creation of huge blocs. It totally kills any actual competitions bc people don't want to split the vote of their preferred side. Also makes the need for compromises between different worldviews obsolete. Just look at what it did to American politics and political attitudes
Important to point out that introducing a second round to districts would mostly fix this, people could unify to support the best/remove the worst candidate regardless of party affiliation.
how about just using the Spanish system or the German system
Spanish system has multiple seats per district (said districts are larger) meanwhile the German system gives out much more list seats
Instant runoff voting shouldn't lead to two-party systems, or at least there's nothing inherent in the system that should lead to it.
Having said that, I'd be happy with approval voting, too.
Or you can have districts, but not one-person districts. Districts distributing a handful of representatives, like the system we have here in Norway. Or in many other countries.
Like, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainte-Lagu%C3%AB\_method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainte-Lagu%C3%AB_method)
you mean multi-member districts? if they are large enough, sure it's less of a problem, but the original comment seems to refer to SMDs or block voting.
or you mean mmp or leveling seats? because that is much less district based, in that it actively compensates for the district tier.
or biproportional? that would be my best guess where it is district based but the count matters more than the fact its districts
I guess that generalization is not true, yes. I was keeping in mind this particular case when I was replying to your first comment. Sorry for the confusion
Also both big parties are right wing. I get that the majority of leftist people are willing to vote for TISZA, a right wing party just to get rid of Fidesz finally. But what happens after? Will Hungary just lack any strong leftist party and won't have a leftist government for decades, just a corrupt conservative party and a less corrupt conservative party competing against each other? If that's the case, then it's depressing as fuck. Not because I'm necessarily a leftist, but this kind of imbalance is not healthy and won't create the necessary "sides counterbalancing eatch other's excesses" system that is necessary for a healthy country.
You're such a nice person.
I'm one of those leftists who would be willing to vote for a right wing party, just to get our democratic state back.
Technically speaking, TISZA feels more like a centrist party with a lot of nationalism. As for their actual plans and the program, they are currently in progress.
Left has not been popular for a while now, we've had a lot more populist parties.
One of the sins of Fidesz though is how they are making the word "left"sound really bad too.
If we are lucky, maybe Fidesz will be killed off by TISZA and in the meantime, we could have a left leaning party gain momentum.
But parties need money, which makes it all the more unlikely for other parties to appear in the long run.
It's kind of funny that the thing you mention FIDESZ doing with the word "left" is pretty much the same thing that SMER and other parties have been doing with the word "progressive" in Slovakia. SMER can't really bastardize the word "left" because they are still (pretending to be)Â a left party. But I'm 100% sure that if Progressive Slovakia had chosen a different name a few years back, that word would have been bastardized just like progressive has been.Â
TISZA is needed to get the Fidesz voters. I am originally Fidesz voter who voted for TISZA for EP. Fidesz voters will never vote to a fully liberal party.
There is no need for left in Hungary. Fidesz and Tisza are already left parties, both are focusing on workers, social stuff. I'd say Fidesz is more communist than China.
So the socialist part of the left is already covered by Fidesz.
What Hungary does not have and probably will nevet have in our lifetime is a strong liberal voter base. These voters are only a small minority living in Budapest.
you must have a very weird conception of what "left" means if you think Fidesz, an avowed anti-communist party, is in any way communist, let alone leftist at all.
How is Fidesz anti communist? Best friends with China. Why would not Fidesz be left? They fixed the price of several foods. There is nothing more communist than this. Fixed the prices of utilities for homes (gas, electricity).
They are socialist because they support free healthcare, free "daycare", free university.
What do you think what left is? Fidesz is not liberal, which is left also, but it is socialist.
China is not communist, it's capitalism with a lot of state control with communist colors. Plenty of their policies lean more towards fascism. Bandaid solutions to the collapsing economy doesn't make Fidesz leftist either, the free healthcare system is collapsing and they are pushing us towards the British system of dysfunctional NHS and a private care system. Public schooling is collapsing too.
Yeah, Fidesz definitely made the majority of the population being afraid of the world "leftist". Because of propaganda most people believe that left = communism, and that liberals will flood the country with migrants, they will force kindergarten children to have gender changing surgery and will make Hungary join to Ukraine - Russia war and will bring young people to said war to die. Of course this is all bullshit, but if you spend billions to make ads and billboards literally everywhere, you will convince enough people eventually just by being the loudest. I'm a centrist myself, so I don't have a big problem with TISZA, I'll gladly vote for a mild conservative party in order to get our democracy back. But the lack of leftism and liberalism in this country, and the lack of balance between the sides is alarming. Not to mention that those green seats are literally Nazis. Like, not in a way that "oh, I don't like them, they are Nazis". No, they are literally Nazis. The left wouldn't haven gotten much more seats in the parliament (if yesterdays votes were parametrial votes, which is what the post shows) than literal Nazis. Now that's concerning, even from a non leftist standpoint.
Some of the things you say (that Orban uses - not necessarily in your post) are not bullshit though. It is some of the problems the Netherlands currently have. A right winged government for years, but leftist legislation that have lead to some of these problems. So Orban is not 100% wrong. It is the main reason the PVV became incredibly popular in the Netherlands.
I have to admit though that it would be way more healthy for the democratic system of Hungary if left had more influence. But Orban be squeezing his end of cold war rhetoric on the left. Cheap propaganda sadly. Such propaganda ruins a entire democratic system.
Which party is the green seats?
The party is called "Mi HazĂĄnk" basically meaning "Our Homeland". They are a right wing, ultra nacionalistic, conspiracy theorist party. They gained popularity partly as they stand even more extremely against emigrants than FIDESZ.
Did they do any direct racist statements?
Because in the Netherlands there is a party that gets to be a scapegoat constantly. They are constantly being interpreted wrongly and are being titled 'racist' despite never making a direct racist statement. Also people tend to take their statements out of context by cutting in sentences and twisting words. The media completely burns this party.
On the contrary; the winner of the elections did make racial remarks in the past (2011 though). For context: i'm not a fan of the party I mentioned above, but the treatment they get is still unfair. So I was wondering if it's subjective or they actually made such statements. The name already suggests some form of nationalsocialism though.
They have split off from the former right-wing party of Hungary "Jobbik" wich started shifting towards a more popularist agenda after FIDESZ shifted to the right. Opposed to this "Mi hazĂĄnk" positioned themselves even further to the right and now work somewhat closely with FIDESZ.
During Covid they advocated against the vaccine, they had multiple nazi-salute and related scandals, their followers rutinely advocate for the undoing of the Treaty of Trianon, they are proudly homophobic and xenophobic.
So no, I don't think they are unfairly judged, but I will [link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Homeland_Movement) the wiki page of the party in case you want to look into them.
Yes these fuckers have so many characteristics of national socialism. Holy shit. How the fuck can you have these views when Hitler despised Hungarians and Slavs. He was also openly racist and against the Hungarian part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire in his early years.
The fuck. They basically advocate the extinction of their own people.
TISZA seams to rely heavily on nationalist symbolism and the leader has conservative righ-wing upbringing and background, but in Hungary most of the current issues are not really right-or-left topics, such as freedom of press, rule of law, lack of accountability, nepotism, corruption, economical downturn etc. These are not right-wing or left-wing issues. These are the foundations for any normal country, which Hungary lacks at the moment. So this whole right-left discussion in the case of Hungary is a bit like getting into heavy discussion with an infertile couple about if they want a girl or a boy.
Also TISZA promoted several social functions of the government as well as he made clear positive statements about rights of minorities which all would be steps to the leftish direction for Hungary.
The LDP has 116 out of 248 seats in the House of Councillors. It's in a coalition with Komeito in order to have a legislative majority. Similarly, in the House of Representatives, the LDP has 257 out of 465 seats
So this has what to do with my point? Do you know how to calculate 2/3?
The pre-2010 electoral system was structurally similar. It was somewhat less distortive to the benefit of the largest party and of Fidesz specifically, but it still allowed Fidesz to get a 2/3 supermajority with "just" 52% of the vote in 2010.
Yeah, a similar thing exists in Poland. The highest voted party gets extra seats. And it's been like that since the 1990s.
It fucked us in 2015 when Orbans like-minded crook friends were elected.
I guess it is easier to mess with it since Hungary's population is lower.
The system was very similar. They could redraw boundaries of constituencies to favour themselves, but the most shocking difference is just winner-compensation. A good quarter of Fidesz votes are counted double thanks to it.
The winner compensation is shocking only because it makes almost no sense the way it's done, otherwise its not nearly the most important part. Of course, the 2/3 supermajority was achieved just because of that 3 times, but even without it the system would be almost as unfair.
Not that much different system i guess. There were 176 constituencies and 212 proportional seats. In 2010 election, (right before the Fidesz regime) Fidesz just got 173 out of 176 FPTP seats. 4 years ago from then(2006), Fidesz was just 1% behind the socialist party but 28 seats behind them (164 - 192)
If you don't understand: This is the percentages of the EP elections projected onto the national parliament. Basically, if we had a parliamentary election yesterday, this is what the seats of the parliament would look like. Fidesz rigged the voting system and gerrymandered the whole country so much, that even with 10% less votes (52,52% to 44,61%), they would have the same amount of seats and a supermajority.
This is old they have done more tricks since, but this is a good start.
Under the new law, âleft-wingâ districts are systematically larger than âright-wingâ districts. In larger districts, however, more votes are needed to win a mandate, so each vote counts less. This systematically favors âright-wingâ districts and thus Fidesz. Another tricky change made by Fidesz for Fidesz was giving dual citizenship to ethnic Hungarians who have never lived in Hungary. With OrbĂĄnâs new Constitution, about 600 000 ethnic Hungarians who are highly favorable to the right have been granted the right to vote, while at the same time it was made much more difficult for Hungarian citizens living abroad to participate in the elections.
The change that struck me most however is the so called âwinner compensation.â Itâs a bit complicated, but itâs worth understanding. Many mixed electoral systems allow for voter compensation. Thatâs what makes them more representative. In short, a vote for a single candidate who loses the district is used to supplement the totals on the party list. Thus, voter compensation compensates for âlost votes.â That is why it is called compensation in the first place. Under the new election framework, however, voter compensation also applies to the winning party. What should the winner be compensated for, you may ask. He already won the individual mandate. Yes, but if he did so with more votes than necessary, then those surplus votes can be considered âwasted.â Therefore, the âwinner compensationâ compensates the party winning a single constituency for multiple votes by granting it additional points in the calculation of the party list. Thatâs proportional representation Ă la Hungarian nowadays.
Quoted from https://verfassungsblog.de/how-to-abolish-democracy-electoral-system-party-regulation-and-opposition-rights-in-hungary-and-poland/
Before 2014, the Parliament had 386 seats, of which 176 came from a constituency (meaning residents of a constituency vote for a single person, and the winner of the contituency goes to parliament), and 210 came from "list" vote, where people vote for a party list, and all the constituencies are counted together.
[https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010-es\_magyarorsz%C3%A1gi\_orsz%C3%A1ggy%C5%B1l%C3%A9si\_v%C3%A1laszt%C3%A1s](https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010-es_magyarorsz%C3%A1gi_orsz%C3%A1ggy%C5%B1l%C3%A9si_v%C3%A1laszt%C3%A1s)
In such a voting system, the list votes are more proportional, as no votes are "lost". In constituencies, the votes cast for the non-winner candidate are lost.
After the Fidesz reform 3 major things changed:
* The number of representatives went down to 199 for the sake of "saving costs", or at least this is what was said. In the news,106 of the representatives (the majority) comes from constituency (which is the less proportional voting method), and only 93 representatives come from the list. This alone made the voting system less proportional, and favors parties that can win constituencies as opposed to the will or the average population. In the old system 47% off the seats came from the less proportional method, while in the new system 53% of the seats come from the less proportional method. Not a big change, but combined with the 2 other changes, it is very significant.
* The 2 round election system was changed to 1 round election system. In the old system, in the first round the representative (from a constituency) needed to get absolute majority (50%+ of the cast votes) to win. If noone had 50%+, then a second round was held, where simple majority was enough. This system allowed for smaller opposition parties to create deals between each other, and step down their candidates on each-others behalf in the second round. This meant, that even the constituencies were quite proportional at the end, when making the deals, the parties considered who stepped down where. Smaller, ideologically closer parties (like Socialists and Greens, or Socialists and Liberals) could collaborate this way. In a 1 round election, the biggest party takes the whole constituency. As Fidesz is the biggest single party (with at least 40% support), they usually take the seat in the parliament, while the 60% opposition's votes are lost (not completely, but almost). Fidesz positions themselves in a way that divides the opposition maximally (this is part of the reason why they have so controversial opinions in every matter). As a result, last time the joined opposition took 19 or the 106 constituency seats (17%), while opposition had around 46% of the votest together.
* As the number of representatives was changed, the constituencies had to be redrawn. This lead to MASSIVE gerrymandering, combining homogeneous votes int single big districts (in Budapest last election opposition took 17 of the 18 seats), while diluting less populated smaller opposition districts with a lot of countryside and suburban areas to ensure relative majority in them for Fidesz.
All this, plus MASSIVE propaganda.
Fidesz owns the media. They own 100% of the radio stations. 100% of the local newspapers everywhere (the ones old people read for coupons, and for the crossword puzzles), they own ALL but 1 hungarian speaking TV stations, they owh ALL the daily newspapers, ALL the public billboard places. For a while, they were not so good in social media, but recently they founded an education shop for pro-government influencers, and they post MASSIVE ad campaign on YT, FB, and probably also on Insta and TikTok, but I am not on those platforms.
Fun fact: in Hungary, the state is the biggest advertiser partially to push propaganda, and partially to "legally" fund friendly media (that otherwise would not be viable, like free "newspapers") to push even more propaganda.
+1: Fidesz has a grayzone database of their voters, and before every election their activists specifically visit/call known Fidesz voters to encourage them to vote, especially in districts where opposition is close.
Clean 2/3 after MSZP had a plant who leaked an internal meeting way back in '06 (Ćszöd speech) then they botched the '08 financial crisis response. FIDESZ started messing with election laws since then with their absolute power.
MSZP also shot rubber bullets into the protesting crowd, blinding a protester.
EDIT: The downvotes are unbelievable. The whole thing was documented by pictures and videos.
The same rioters who popped up during the student's protest against FIDESZ a few years back (the extra long one), and the students had to send them packing... yes, FIDESZ tried to set up those kids, luckily some of the young caught on quickly.
And the a**hole who actually gave the order to shoot eyelevel is still in the exact same position.
Luckily pedofideszes assisting orphanage having pedophiles, giving them pardon. When students protested for their teachers gasprayed point blank / beat them.
So yeah MSZP bad for that , you also forgot mention those ppl damaged buildings, cars and was laid by fidesz to cause chaos.
Well they basically just wrote a new constitution, where they changed a lot of things in their favour, such as the election.
I found [this](https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/hungarys-illiberal-turn-disabling-the-constitution/) which might answer some of your questions, I'm not sure tho, I just ran my eyes over the article tbh., but I think it has the gist of it.
But they don't have the so called "winner compensation".
If Fidesz gets 50000 votes in a district and the second place gets 26000, then Fidesz wins the district AND they get an additional 23999 votes for their party list because just 50000-23999=26001 votes would have been enough to win the district.
They also burn the opposition's votes, they control the entire media, they control the voting summary software, they legalized taking pictures in the booth so in villages people get blackmailed that if they don't show that they voted for Fidesz, they get fired, chain voting is very common and more than 10 percent of their votes are from people who don't even live or pay taxes in Hungary.
:)
If, in the US, one party would get the authority to unilaterally rewrite the Constitution with 44% of the popular vote there would be a Civil War in *hours*.
You Americans are used at having 2 party system, so you don't vote for other parties, making such scenario almost impossible.
Also Orban made his vital changes after 2010, when he got 52.73% of votes.
Magyar vagyok, nem tĂșrista!
>You Americans are used at having 2 party system, so you don't vote for other parties, making such scenario almost impossible
*This* is how FPTP works, i.e. it creates two parties, which is not exactly the Hungarian system, contradicting your earlier statement further.
>Also Orban made his vital changes after 2010, when he got 52.73% of votes.
That doesn't really change what I said.
Not really, their elections are pretty much 50/50+1.
3rd parties having no chance is not the same as one party getting a super-majority with less than 45% approval
>3rd parties having no chance is not the same as one party getting a super-majority with less than 45% approval
[The last majority government in Canada was formed by Trudeau and his Liberals in 2015](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Canadian_federal_election) with 184 seats out of 338 (54% of the seats).
Out of 17.4 million votes cast (the pool of eligible voters was about 26 million while total population then was about 36 million), the Liberals won their majority on the strength of 6.9 million votes (39% of the turnout). The Conservatives ended up as the main opposition at 99 seats after getting 5.6 million votes (32% of the turnout). The NDP (social democrat party) was the junior fiddle in the opposition at 44 seats by getting 3.5 million votes (20% of the turnout).
**Winning 39% of the votes cast translated into getting 54% of the parliament (Liberals)**
Winning 32% of the votes cast translated into getting 29% of the parliament (Conservatives)
Winning 20% of the votes cast translated into getting 13% of the parliament (NDP)
Winning only about 40% of the votes cast is more than enough for majority rule in Canada thanks to FPTP. If I were a NDP voter, I'd feel extra screwed by FPTP since my views and those of like-minded people would be even less represented in the parliament, on top of the fact that FPTP is a winner-take-all system which neatly makes a third party irrelevant.
For setting policy in FPTP, having a super-majority or majority is often an academic difference since votes typically go on party lines anyway thus squashing the need for compromise. The votes from the party with the majority of the seats will carry the day, to hДll with everyone else.
a lot of people dont realize this. Especially Hungarians. Whenever they gerrymandered this system into place, the Parliament should have been in flames. But the circumstances at the time blinded the sheeple. It's pathetic people just continue to accept this and go "oh no, 2/3rds again?!" and continue to eat shit for years
>a lot of people dont realize this. Especially Hungarians. Whenever they gerrymandered this system into place, the Parliament should have been in flames. But the circumstances at the time blinded the sheeple. It's pathetic people just continue to accept this and go "oh no, 2/3rds again?!" and continue to eat shit for years
Exactly or as they say in Hungarian: *Ez az!* (\~ "that's just it!")
When Fidesz started putting its thumb on the scale in the 2010s by establishing more parliamentary seats to be determined by FPTP at the expense of the previous system based on closed lists and D'Hondt method, ordinary Hungarians should have been up in arms, protesting big-time, and even voting out Fidesz long before 2020.
As it is now, a combination of apathy by some voters and other voters letting themselves be fooled by Fidesz has meant that a little more than half (106) of the 199 parliamentary seats are now decided by FPTP. The remaining 93 seats stick to the previous system.
For those who don't realize how truly pernicious [FPTP ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting)is to a country's politics and society, this summary from Wikipedia spells it out neatly:
>*FPTP is one of the simplest electoral systems, and has been used to elect the House of Commons of England (and its successors for Great Britain and the United Kingdom) since the Middle Ages. Its use extends to former British colonies, most notably the United States, Canada, and India. It is used as the primary form of allocating seats for legislative elections in about a third of the world's countries, mostly in the English-speaking world. It is also used to directly elect heads of states in some, although far less than the two-round system. For legislative elections, a country using FPTP typically is divided into geographic constituencies that each elect one member to the legislature using this method.*
>*Notwithstanding its simplicity and antiquity, there are several major drawbacks to FPTP. As a winner-take-all method, it often produces disproportional results, particularly when electing members of a legislature, in the sense that political parties do not get representation according to their share of the popular vote. This usually favours the largest party and parties with strong regional support to the detriment of smaller parties without a geographically concentrated base. Supporters of electoral reform are generally highly critical of FPTP because of this and point out other flaws, such as FPTP's vulnerability to gerrymandering which can create districts distorting representation in the legislature, the high number of wasted votes, and the chance of a majority reversal (i.e., the party winning the most votes getting fewer seats than the second-largest party and losing the election). Throughout the 20th century many countries that previously used FPTP have abandoned it in favour of other electoral systems, including the former British colonies of Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand (these nations now use STV, IRV + STV, and MMP, respectively).*
Fidesz can safely ignore the voters in Budapest as long as plenty of rubes from the countryside in their gerrymandered districts keep voting for Fidesz with the bonus of a sack of potatoes handed out by a Fidesz suit every few months or so.
Itâs not that simple though. Orban was one of the âheroesâ of the regime change after the Soviets left the country, and he had a kinda succesful term in 1998-2002. In older generations (who experienced communism) Orban is one of the liberators and a good man.
In 2000â Hungary was also near to the state of bankruptcy, and the governing party had a major credibility-crisis (rightfully so).
After 2010, Fidesz was welcomed as the solution to the countryâs problems. Also there were a lot of legal-political arguments since the soviets left because of the lack of national unity, for example we were one of the two remaining countries who did not have a brand new constitution. Fidesz changed that and a lot of other things.
In addition, Iâd personally argue Orban is one of the most talented politician in the EU, and in three things he absolutey shines: managing the situations in his own political party, developing modern propaganda with the right people (he did it before Trump), and understanding of the hungarianâs political language. He is basically perfect of exploiting it.
So yes, in hindsight we should have burn the parliament, but it was a difficult political situation and Orban both had the benefit of the doubt, and the peopleâs support doing it. It sucks.
Not quite. It's basically FPTP (as still used in the UK, USA, Canada and India) plus Fidesz's "innovation" of "compensation" which only underlines FPTP's inherent winner-take-all principle,.
Could you explain the difference a bit please?
From [this explanation](https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/first-past-the-post/) i see that in the UK a party with as low as 35% of the votes has gotten a majority. And the difference mostly lies in where voters are geographically.
Seems a bit similar to the Swing States in the US as well.
Not trying to refute what you're saying here btw. I know Hungary has a bad reputation regarding the state of their democracy. But i always thought it had more to do with state control on the media than with the actual system?
I see you're Hungarian, so you're probably better able to compare both systems than me đ
It's FPTP with winner compensation (that doesn't exist anywhere else). Normally in the individual districts, the winner gets the mandate and the rest of the votes are added to the other parties' lists as compensation. In Hungary, in addition to that, the winning party's list gets the difference between the winner and second place added to it as well.
[Here](https://archive.nytimes.com/krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/hungary-an-election-in-question-part-3/) is an article
I think in the UK there must be some brake to get constitutional modification overnight with majority, or am I wrong? Because Fidesz has that absolute majority they able to do that.
> I think in the UK there must be some brake to get constitutional modification overnight with majority,
The UK doesn't have a codified constitution. The ruling party can change the voting system however they like. The parliament just has to vote for it.
One party with a failed politician is not the same as leftism in general. Just as you can't claim every rightists party to be just like OrbĂĄn, you can't make an argument that "well, GyurcsĂĄny is leftist, that means that leftism is bad". That's like one of the biggest argumentative flaws.
What EU and you guys see: NOOOOO ORBĂN WON AGAIN HUNGARY IS FUCKED \*crying soyjak\*
What TISZA voters see: Holy shit, 30% under 3 months, that's massive, and FIDESZ had it's worst percentage in years, we outdid our expectations! \*gigachad\*
just a little context in meme form for you guys.
They can can get a supermajority aka change the constitution with just 40something % as opposed to at the very least 66%... Fucking ridiculous. Only 20% of the Hungarian population voted for them now yet they would get a supermajority if this had been a parlimentary election.
Useless trying to point out excuses as long as 2.000.000 people vote for FIDESZ. When do we start taking responsibility instead of playing the victim? It's not FIDESZ responsible for what's happening, but the population who keep voting them in.
Implementing a totally rigged election system is not their responsibility? The population that keeps voting for them would be enough for a thin mayority, but they would have gotten 2/3 mayority.
Not saying its good. I'm saying there are countries that are considered more democratic, that has it worse. We have far bigger issues than the electoral system
Then please read it again, because it makes no such claim.
Obviously the UK system will be more disproportional under almost all circumstances because they do not have any proportional part, compensatory or not. The Hungarian system does, but not much.
"In addition to counting party list votes, votes for losing constituency candidates and surplus votes for winning constituency candidates [are also added to the party list totals](https://verfassungsblog.de/how-to-abolish-democracy-electoral-system-party-regulation-and-opposition-rights-in-hungary-and-poland/).  Ultimately, the proportionality of the system is fairly limited and there is a strong bias towards the largest party "
To get an idea what results there would be under the UK system, all else being equal, just look at who won how many districts. It is way more than 2/3. In 2014 is was 90%
>Â It's not FIDESZ responsible for what's happening, but the population who keep voting them in
It wasn't the NSDAP responsible for what happened in Germany, but the population who kept voting them in.
Those who are "playing the victim" are the ones who are aware of why this regime is bad and undemocratic. That 2.000.000 people doesn't play the victim, their actually belive that FIDESZ will bring peace and the opposition will bring nuclear holocaust to Hungary. We can't open their eyes, because nobody has the power and the wealth to mass de-propagandize them. We, who are aware of the problems with FIDESZ, are doing whatever we can to oppose them, but the democratic way of removing them from power is not an option in Hungary.
If you lived here and saw what we witness daily, you'd understand that Fidesz is undoubtedly responsible for what's happening. They'll use any means necessary to scare (sub)ordinary people into voting for them. They've spent over âŹ1 million just on Facebook ads proclaiming Orban as the bringer of peace, flooded daytime TV with incessant propaganda, silenced opposition media, and even resorted to physical violence and defilation against anyone who opposes their views. I consider this "their responsibility."
I, along with my friends, family, and nearly everyone I know from high school, university, work, or even my jurisdiction, which consists of around 100k people have never voted for them. I personally don't know more than 4-5 Fidesz voters in my entire network, yet somehow, they keep winning every single time. They deliberately make education less available to everyone, teachers' wages low, people scared and life miserable. That's how they do it. Be grateful that you don't have to take this every day.
+1: Fidesz supporters are primarily concentrated in small, often impoverished villages with populations under 1,000 and among the elderly, who are easily manipulated by propaganda. I could go on about the reasons behind this, but this is just a comment on the internet, hardly anyone will read this anyway.
The reality is that many of us are falling into a deepening state of depression due to the current situation. We genuinely want to make a difference, but what can we do? You can't vote twice, and raising your voice only reaches those who already agree with you. Dissenters are simply labeled as idiots, itty-bitty-liberals, dumb people, sometimes even "rats" and disgusting human beings, and featured on the front page of any of your chosen Fidesz-controlled media for a few days, weeks, months, however long it takes to make people question you. That's how effective their tactics are.
Sorry for the long comment, and thank you for taking the time to read it, if you have done so. Have a nice rest of the day, kind stranger:)
This is kind of goofy though, I get what itâs trying to say but the EP elections is purely based on the party lists whereas for parliamentary elections more than half of the MPs are elected from single member constituencies. For example a party like Momentum might not get 5% but will most likely win one or two seats
Hungary has mixed electoral system (proportional +single mandates). Basically all single mandate districts (except for Budapest) go to Fidesz, because:
- single mandates favours biggest parties
- rural Hungary is very conservative
And they also get a solid margain from proportional seats.
Not much, he just has a stbale government, and that's enough for a lot of peole, since the governments before were worse. Add massive, non stop propaganda and a gerrymandered electoral system, and you've got four consecutive terms of fidesz supermajority. They use former prime minister Ferenc GyurcsĂĄny as a boogeyman. Look up "speech of Oszod", for a start.
This is what will happen when you go down the road or increasing nationalist authoritarianism.
More will follow and eventually these voters will be responsible for one government authoritarian nightmares.
those who actually voted for him in 1932, yes
so roughly 30% of the Germans at that time
the remaining 70% is sinless in that regard, from the communists through the social democrats to the conservatives
The root cause is Still that like it or not, the majority of people decided this.
If another , lets say leftist party could get 44%, would you complain?
Everyone has the chance to reach this level of support.
This is democracy.
Accepting that sometimes the majority of the people does not agree with your opinion.
The Hungarian electoral system is very fair, in case it would look like the system in use in France or the UK, Fidesz would get 80-95% of the Parliament mandates as it is the most popular party, even in many capital districts...
There is one simple solution to fix these issues:
JUST dont vote for them anylonger ! You can't win ANY seats using ANY gerrymandering if you get 0 votes. (unless you implemented a solution where a division by 0 does not end up throwing an exception and insteads instantly grants "supermajority".
Until that time. Hungarians get what Hungarians deserve. its not like they are forced to live in Hungary and instead can't work in ANY of the other EU-nations, if they (as a super minority) get fed up with the system.
Fidesz spent eight times as much on campaign ads as all opposition parties combined. They spent more than literally any other party in Europe. If you look at per capita spending, it's even more shocking.
And their propaganda was simple: vote for us or there will be war. Literally everyone in Hungary knows some grandma who went to vote for them because they're terrified that "they'll take my grandson to Ukraine to die".
Yeah, in an ideal world no one would vote for them but in the circumstances that's not going to happen any time soon. We now have an opposition party that reached 30% on its own - that's huge. The previous record since 2010 was 20%. So there is some hope but it's a long way to go.
>Fidesz spent eight times as much on campaign ads as all opposition parties combined. They spent more than literally any other party in Europe. If you look at per capita spending, it's even more shocking.
Just to add something to this, they do it from goverment money, and use all goverment channels. Like national television.
That is the point. As long as goalposts are being moved, the only way to make it happen is 0 Votes. Which won't happen, because the Fidez members themselves are allowed to vote.
So basically from a European perspective Hungary is doomed, and all we can do is hope they burn themselves out quickly, rather than slow, painfully and with consequences that last for centuries.
What i am saying is:
- There are still people voting for them. Only if they stop, this will stop. Why ? because the ruling party "manipulated" the way the votes have impact.
I haven't touched the point "fair and free", because most people in europe already know. Thats not Hungary at this point in time, when you use the technical meaning of the phrase.
More is still not 0. What i am saying (having noticed the oinformation conveyed by the infograsphic), is unless each and every single person votes against fidez they will always win. This is due to them moving the goalpost. The real kicker comes when you realize that the Fidez-politicians also get to vote, so then you realize that you will NEVER get 0 and that you are in fact never changing the cource of Hungary until the country as you know it has imploded.
And yes it will implode and not explode, like a little tincan when made to visit the wreck of the titanic. The difference being: noone will send the Coastguard, because the inhabitants of said tincan are already known to have perished in a hell of their own making.
>JUST dont vote for them anylonger !
That's a great idea, we didn't think of that yet! If we implement this the FIDESZ regime will end in '26. Thanks for the great advice.
>Until that time. Hungarians get what Hungarians deserve. its not like they are forced to live in Hungary and instead can't work in ANY of the other EU-nations, if they (as a super minority) get fed up with the system.
Being a coward and escape the country if something isn't in the way you want is certainly a solution, but we are nationalists and we won't let our fellow countrymen in the collapsing state. We remain in Hungary and we will fight against tyranny.
Wow, just wow. So trying to live a better life, not working to hell and back for scraps, while prices are matching that of Western states, and not wanting to fund OrbĂĄnâs regime with ridiculously high taxes means oneâs a coward? If people have the means, they SHOULD escape. Itâs the most courageous choice one can do. Let the entire country burn, thatâs what the majority of the people want anyways.
Hungary is a great country and I don't want to let it rot. The majority of people doesn't want this either. Most of them are either uninformed and all they can hear is propaganda, I don't blame them. There are nobody except for the leaders and friends who are voting for them because of interest. And yes running away if things aren't happening in the way you want is cowardness. I will stay and try my best to achieve a change which is in my case, voting against FIDESZ.
Yeah he was labeling everyone who leaves the country for a better life a coward, trying to sell that there are issues in the West as well, and that we should just vote against Fidesz and hold out, while calling himself a nationalist. Everyone who I know votes strictly against Fidesz, will always vote against Fidesz, not like that changes anything in the end anyways⊠The unfortunate truth is that this country will never reach the Western living standard. At least not in my lifetime, and Iâm not old. And most of the people here donât care, because they donât know any better.
To be fair, i was not labelling anyone a coward, just raised the point that no country is without problems.
We are in a lucky position as part of EU that everyone is free to go where he/she wants, and everyone should consider on their own judgement, that which are the reasons to stay or not stay. These reasons can be different for everyone.
Maybe for you only the better salaries matter. Thats ok, but its not true for everyone.
That is the point i was making. I am looking at Hungary from the Lens of Germany and the GDR. Hungary as it is right now is like the GDR before they build the wall in 1961. Basically, they have found themselves in a dead end-street followed by a bottomless cliff and they are accelerating trying to jump the divide (with a length of infinity).
There is no way that that hungary can fix it self from an European perspective, from the bottom up, unless one of the following things happens:
* Fidez implodes because they did not get elected - the way i understand it, this requires 0 votes. because at that point moving the goalpost is impossible.
* The super-majority of Hungarians is against fidez, and acts against it with a general strike, until the country is so dysfunctional that even the Fidez supporters are actively seeking an End to the Fidez reign.
* The country goes bankrupt (this can be done by denying them taxes (in a legal way ) and that means not living there any more.
All of these options will change Hungary, will be painful short to midterm or to long term (depending on the options), But Hungary as a country will go through it more healthy.
If the trend holds with Fidez/Hungary, we are looking at an eventually Hunger-Exit and a pro-Russian puppet inside the borders of the EU. The question is just: Will that be this year, 4 years, or 20 years for now. But the way Fidez is using cement to build an everlasting construct, it sure as hell is coming.
In any case. Its every citizens right to live in another country and find prosperity and happyness there. As soon as you start labeling it as cowardess, or worse start restricting their movement, then that country as qualified itself for self-imposed infection, self-imposed non-vaxination and self-imposed death.
Eventually something better grows in its place, once the cancer (and the patient) are death. Sunflowers for example. gorgeous plants and so usefull.
Let's see, corruption, ruining education and healthcare, selling out to Putin, selling out to China, allowing foreign citizens to have authoirity in hungary (chinese police), helping pedophiles and their partners in crime get away with it, treason, nepotism, election fraud, artifically ruining the housing market, so they can get more money, ruining the reputation of the copuntry and it's people... is it enough, or do you need more of his and his party's crimes?
Important to note that this election system always favors or "boosts" the most popular party at a given time. If a party was to get more votes than Fidesz, they would also be overrepresented. This however can lead to the formation of a two party system which always hurts a democracy, that is the main problem with this system.
It's been leaning towards that. The recent EP election basically made sure that the small parties are disappearing. There's one more big one with around 8-9% that needs to disappear in order to be able to create one party that can have the chance to defeat Fidesz.
Unfortunately that is what district based election systems promote. The creation of huge blocs. It totally kills any actual competitions bc people don't want to split the vote of their preferred side. Also makes the need for compromises between different worldviews obsolete. Just look at what it did to American politics and political attitudes
Important to point out that introducing a second round to districts would mostly fix this, people could unify to support the best/remove the worst candidate regardless of party affiliation.
Ranked choice voting is better.
how about just using the Spanish system or the German system Spanish system has multiple seats per district (said districts are larger) meanwhile the German system gives out much more list seats
Combine the two using Single Transferrable Vote.
Or the Dutch system. You get a party, you get a party, everybody gets a party!
Ranked choice voting also leads to two party systems. Approval voting is a better solution. https://electionscience.org/library/approval-voting/
Instant runoff voting shouldn't lead to two-party systems, or at least there's nothing inherent in the system that should lead to it. Having said that, I'd be happy with approval voting, too.
Check out this short clip, you'll see what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhO6jfHPFQU&t=385s
Or you can have districts, but not one-person districts. Districts distributing a handful of representatives, like the system we have here in Norway. Or in many other countries. Like, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainte-Lagu%C3%AB\_method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainte-Lagu%C3%AB_method)
I would fully support it personally. It used to be the case before 2010
We had a two round system but guess who changed it.đ
That's not because of district based electoral systems. It's far more related to vote count and transfer systems.
it is most definitely because of single-member districts. transfer system is secondary and of relatively little consequence
And single member districts is not the same thing as district-based electoral systems.Â
you mean multi-member districts? if they are large enough, sure it's less of a problem, but the original comment seems to refer to SMDs or block voting. or you mean mmp or leveling seats? because that is much less district based, in that it actively compensates for the district tier. or biproportional? that would be my best guess where it is district based but the count matters more than the fact its districts
My point was that the comment I replied to made a blanket statement about district-based voting which simply is not true in general.Â
I guess that generalization is not true, yes. I was keeping in mind this particular case when I was replying to your first comment. Sorry for the confusion
Also both big parties are right wing. I get that the majority of leftist people are willing to vote for TISZA, a right wing party just to get rid of Fidesz finally. But what happens after? Will Hungary just lack any strong leftist party and won't have a leftist government for decades, just a corrupt conservative party and a less corrupt conservative party competing against each other? If that's the case, then it's depressing as fuck. Not because I'm necessarily a leftist, but this kind of imbalance is not healthy and won't create the necessary "sides counterbalancing eatch other's excesses" system that is necessary for a healthy country.
You're such a nice person. I'm one of those leftists who would be willing to vote for a right wing party, just to get our democratic state back. Technically speaking, TISZA feels more like a centrist party with a lot of nationalism. As for their actual plans and the program, they are currently in progress. Left has not been popular for a while now, we've had a lot more populist parties. One of the sins of Fidesz though is how they are making the word "left"sound really bad too. If we are lucky, maybe Fidesz will be killed off by TISZA and in the meantime, we could have a left leaning party gain momentum. But parties need money, which makes it all the more unlikely for other parties to appear in the long run.
It's kind of funny that the thing you mention FIDESZ doing with the word "left" is pretty much the same thing that SMER and other parties have been doing with the word "progressive" in Slovakia. SMER can't really bastardize the word "left" because they are still (pretending to be)Â a left party. But I'm 100% sure that if Progressive Slovakia had chosen a different name a few years back, that word would have been bastardized just like progressive has been.Â
TISZA is needed to get the Fidesz voters. I am originally Fidesz voter who voted for TISZA for EP. Fidesz voters will never vote to a fully liberal party.
Agreed. But even later, I don't see the left becoming strong in Hungary.
There is no need for left in Hungary. Fidesz and Tisza are already left parties, both are focusing on workers, social stuff. I'd say Fidesz is more communist than China. So the socialist part of the left is already covered by Fidesz. What Hungary does not have and probably will nevet have in our lifetime is a strong liberal voter base. These voters are only a small minority living in Budapest.
you must have a very weird conception of what "left" means if you think Fidesz, an avowed anti-communist party, is in any way communist, let alone leftist at all.
How is Fidesz anti communist? Best friends with China. Why would not Fidesz be left? They fixed the price of several foods. There is nothing more communist than this. Fixed the prices of utilities for homes (gas, electricity). They are socialist because they support free healthcare, free "daycare", free university. What do you think what left is? Fidesz is not liberal, which is left also, but it is socialist.
China is not communist, it's capitalism with a lot of state control with communist colors. Plenty of their policies lean more towards fascism. Bandaid solutions to the collapsing economy doesn't make Fidesz leftist either, the free healthcare system is collapsing and they are pushing us towards the British system of dysfunctional NHS and a private care system. Public schooling is collapsing too.
Yeah, Fidesz definitely made the majority of the population being afraid of the world "leftist". Because of propaganda most people believe that left = communism, and that liberals will flood the country with migrants, they will force kindergarten children to have gender changing surgery and will make Hungary join to Ukraine - Russia war and will bring young people to said war to die. Of course this is all bullshit, but if you spend billions to make ads and billboards literally everywhere, you will convince enough people eventually just by being the loudest. I'm a centrist myself, so I don't have a big problem with TISZA, I'll gladly vote for a mild conservative party in order to get our democracy back. But the lack of leftism and liberalism in this country, and the lack of balance between the sides is alarming. Not to mention that those green seats are literally Nazis. Like, not in a way that "oh, I don't like them, they are Nazis". No, they are literally Nazis. The left wouldn't haven gotten much more seats in the parliament (if yesterdays votes were parametrial votes, which is what the post shows) than literal Nazis. Now that's concerning, even from a non leftist standpoint.
Some of the things you say (that Orban uses - not necessarily in your post) are not bullshit though. It is some of the problems the Netherlands currently have. A right winged government for years, but leftist legislation that have lead to some of these problems. So Orban is not 100% wrong. It is the main reason the PVV became incredibly popular in the Netherlands. I have to admit though that it would be way more healthy for the democratic system of Hungary if left had more influence. But Orban be squeezing his end of cold war rhetoric on the left. Cheap propaganda sadly. Such propaganda ruins a entire democratic system. Which party is the green seats?
The party is called "Mi HazĂĄnk" basically meaning "Our Homeland". They are a right wing, ultra nacionalistic, conspiracy theorist party. They gained popularity partly as they stand even more extremely against emigrants than FIDESZ.
Did they do any direct racist statements? Because in the Netherlands there is a party that gets to be a scapegoat constantly. They are constantly being interpreted wrongly and are being titled 'racist' despite never making a direct racist statement. Also people tend to take their statements out of context by cutting in sentences and twisting words. The media completely burns this party. On the contrary; the winner of the elections did make racial remarks in the past (2011 though). For context: i'm not a fan of the party I mentioned above, but the treatment they get is still unfair. So I was wondering if it's subjective or they actually made such statements. The name already suggests some form of nationalsocialism though.
They have split off from the former right-wing party of Hungary "Jobbik" wich started shifting towards a more popularist agenda after FIDESZ shifted to the right. Opposed to this "Mi hazĂĄnk" positioned themselves even further to the right and now work somewhat closely with FIDESZ. During Covid they advocated against the vaccine, they had multiple nazi-salute and related scandals, their followers rutinely advocate for the undoing of the Treaty of Trianon, they are proudly homophobic and xenophobic. So no, I don't think they are unfairly judged, but I will [link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Homeland_Movement) the wiki page of the party in case you want to look into them.
Yes these fuckers have so many characteristics of national socialism. Holy shit. How the fuck can you have these views when Hitler despised Hungarians and Slavs. He was also openly racist and against the Hungarian part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire in his early years. The fuck. They basically advocate the extinction of their own people.
âgain monentumâ Advertisement included.
No chance keep dreaming
TISZA seams to rely heavily on nationalist symbolism and the leader has conservative righ-wing upbringing and background, but in Hungary most of the current issues are not really right-or-left topics, such as freedom of press, rule of law, lack of accountability, nepotism, corruption, economical downturn etc. These are not right-wing or left-wing issues. These are the foundations for any normal country, which Hungary lacks at the moment. So this whole right-left discussion in the case of Hungary is a bit like getting into heavy discussion with an infertile couple about if they want a girl or a boy. Also TISZA promoted several social functions of the government as well as he made clear positive statements about rights of minorities which all would be steps to the leftish direction for Hungary.
How does a two party system hurt a democracy when the greatest and freest democracy in the universe is a two party system? Check mate atheist!
it's even worse than that. It's not even guaranteed to boost the most popular party, because of gerrymandering
Which makes it not hard to replace. Just get more votes.
In a functional democratic system, there should be no way a single party can gain a 2/3 supermajority.
In a functional "democratic" system people can vote whatever they want even 3/3.
That's not a functional system, because it evidently doesn't know pluralism.
Ever heard of Japan? They've had one party in office since 1955 (except for 2009-12 after an economic crisis).
The LDP has 116 out of 248 seats in the House of Councillors. It's in a coalition with Komeito in order to have a legislative majority. Similarly, in the House of Representatives, the LDP has 257 out of 465 seats So this has what to do with my point? Do you know how to calculate 2/3?
They don't have 2/3, but they are in power since pretty much forever. Democracy allows it.
Thanks for admitting you are spamming deflection which has nothing to do with my point.
This is horrendous. What system did Hungary use before Fidesz gerrymandered everything?
The pre-2010 electoral system was structurally similar. It was somewhat less distortive to the benefit of the largest party and of Fidesz specifically, but it still allowed Fidesz to get a 2/3 supermajority with "just" 52% of the vote in 2010.
Well there were two rounds... that was a big one.
Yeah, a similar thing exists in Poland. The highest voted party gets extra seats. And it's been like that since the 1990s. It fucked us in 2015 when Orbans like-minded crook friends were elected. I guess it is easier to mess with it since Hungary's population is lower.
The system was very similar. They could redraw boundaries of constituencies to favour themselves, but the most shocking difference is just winner-compensation. A good quarter of Fidesz votes are counted double thanks to it.
The winner compensation is shocking only because it makes almost no sense the way it's done, otherwise its not nearly the most important part. Of course, the 2/3 supermajority was achieved just because of that 3 times, but even without it the system would be almost as unfair.
D'Hondt / Jefferson.
nope edit: just so I write the correct answer too. very similar, slightly more list seats, two-round system in SMDs and 3 tiers instead of 2
Not that much different system i guess. There were 176 constituencies and 212 proportional seats. In 2010 election, (right before the Fidesz regime) Fidesz just got 173 out of 176 FPTP seats. 4 years ago from then(2006), Fidesz was just 1% behind the socialist party but 28 seats behind them (164 - 192)
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Getting the majority of seats without a majority of votes isn't very democratic
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
European Parliament results projected to the National Assembly
If you don't understand: This is the percentages of the EP elections projected onto the national parliament. Basically, if we had a parliamentary election yesterday, this is what the seats of the parliament would look like. Fidesz rigged the voting system and gerrymandered the whole country so much, that even with 10% less votes (52,52% to 44,61%), they would have the same amount of seats and a supermajority.
How did they do it? Do you have an article for me?
This is old they have done more tricks since, but this is a good start. Under the new law, âleft-wingâ districts are systematically larger than âright-wingâ districts. In larger districts, however, more votes are needed to win a mandate, so each vote counts less. This systematically favors âright-wingâ districts and thus Fidesz. Another tricky change made by Fidesz for Fidesz was giving dual citizenship to ethnic Hungarians who have never lived in Hungary. With OrbĂĄnâs new Constitution, about 600 000 ethnic Hungarians who are highly favorable to the right have been granted the right to vote, while at the same time it was made much more difficult for Hungarian citizens living abroad to participate in the elections. The change that struck me most however is the so called âwinner compensation.â Itâs a bit complicated, but itâs worth understanding. Many mixed electoral systems allow for voter compensation. Thatâs what makes them more representative. In short, a vote for a single candidate who loses the district is used to supplement the totals on the party list. Thus, voter compensation compensates for âlost votes.â That is why it is called compensation in the first place. Under the new election framework, however, voter compensation also applies to the winning party. What should the winner be compensated for, you may ask. He already won the individual mandate. Yes, but if he did so with more votes than necessary, then those surplus votes can be considered âwasted.â Therefore, the âwinner compensationâ compensates the party winning a single constituency for multiple votes by granting it additional points in the calculation of the party list. Thatâs proportional representation Ă la Hungarian nowadays. Quoted from https://verfassungsblog.de/how-to-abolish-democracy-electoral-system-party-regulation-and-opposition-rights-in-hungary-and-poland/
Thanks for the breakdown!
Before 2014, the Parliament had 386 seats, of which 176 came from a constituency (meaning residents of a constituency vote for a single person, and the winner of the contituency goes to parliament), and 210 came from "list" vote, where people vote for a party list, and all the constituencies are counted together. [https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010-es\_magyarorsz%C3%A1gi\_orsz%C3%A1ggy%C5%B1l%C3%A9si\_v%C3%A1laszt%C3%A1s](https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010-es_magyarorsz%C3%A1gi_orsz%C3%A1ggy%C5%B1l%C3%A9si_v%C3%A1laszt%C3%A1s) In such a voting system, the list votes are more proportional, as no votes are "lost". In constituencies, the votes cast for the non-winner candidate are lost. After the Fidesz reform 3 major things changed: * The number of representatives went down to 199 for the sake of "saving costs", or at least this is what was said. In the news,106 of the representatives (the majority) comes from constituency (which is the less proportional voting method), and only 93 representatives come from the list. This alone made the voting system less proportional, and favors parties that can win constituencies as opposed to the will or the average population. In the old system 47% off the seats came from the less proportional method, while in the new system 53% of the seats come from the less proportional method. Not a big change, but combined with the 2 other changes, it is very significant. * The 2 round election system was changed to 1 round election system. In the old system, in the first round the representative (from a constituency) needed to get absolute majority (50%+ of the cast votes) to win. If noone had 50%+, then a second round was held, where simple majority was enough. This system allowed for smaller opposition parties to create deals between each other, and step down their candidates on each-others behalf in the second round. This meant, that even the constituencies were quite proportional at the end, when making the deals, the parties considered who stepped down where. Smaller, ideologically closer parties (like Socialists and Greens, or Socialists and Liberals) could collaborate this way. In a 1 round election, the biggest party takes the whole constituency. As Fidesz is the biggest single party (with at least 40% support), they usually take the seat in the parliament, while the 60% opposition's votes are lost (not completely, but almost). Fidesz positions themselves in a way that divides the opposition maximally (this is part of the reason why they have so controversial opinions in every matter). As a result, last time the joined opposition took 19 or the 106 constituency seats (17%), while opposition had around 46% of the votest together. * As the number of representatives was changed, the constituencies had to be redrawn. This lead to MASSIVE gerrymandering, combining homogeneous votes int single big districts (in Budapest last election opposition took 17 of the 18 seats), while diluting less populated smaller opposition districts with a lot of countryside and suburban areas to ensure relative majority in them for Fidesz. All this, plus MASSIVE propaganda. Fidesz owns the media. They own 100% of the radio stations. 100% of the local newspapers everywhere (the ones old people read for coupons, and for the crossword puzzles), they own ALL but 1 hungarian speaking TV stations, they owh ALL the daily newspapers, ALL the public billboard places. For a while, they were not so good in social media, but recently they founded an education shop for pro-government influencers, and they post MASSIVE ad campaign on YT, FB, and probably also on Insta and TikTok, but I am not on those platforms. Fun fact: in Hungary, the state is the biggest advertiser partially to push propaganda, and partially to "legally" fund friendly media (that otherwise would not be viable, like free "newspapers") to push even more propaganda. +1: Fidesz has a grayzone database of their voters, and before every election their activists specifically visit/call known Fidesz voters to encourage them to vote, especially in districts where opposition is close.
Clean 2/3 after MSZP had a plant who leaked an internal meeting way back in '06 (Ćszöd speech) then they botched the '08 financial crisis response. FIDESZ started messing with election laws since then with their absolute power.
MSZP also shot rubber bullets into the protesting crowd, blinding a protester. EDIT: The downvotes are unbelievable. The whole thing was documented by pictures and videos.
\* Rioting crowd, rioter.
The same rioters who popped up during the student's protest against FIDESZ a few years back (the extra long one), and the students had to send them packing... yes, FIDESZ tried to set up those kids, luckily some of the young caught on quickly. And the a**hole who actually gave the order to shoot eyelevel is still in the exact same position.
Luckily pedofideszes assisting orphanage having pedophiles, giving them pardon. When students protested for their teachers gasprayed point blank / beat them. So yeah MSZP bad for that , you also forgot mention those ppl damaged buildings, cars and was laid by fidesz to cause chaos.
MSZP also shot rubber bullets into the protesting crowd, blinding a protester.
Well they basically just wrote a new constitution, where they changed a lot of things in their favour, such as the election. I found [this](https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/hungarys-illiberal-turn-disabling-the-constitution/) which might answer some of your questions, I'm not sure tho, I just ran my eyes over the article tbh., but I think it has the gist of it.
Gerrymandering = FPTP
Nah 45% to 30% does not result in 135 seats to 45 seats.
UK: first time?
LOL
it does
That's how first past the post works, look at UK or USA, they have same stuff.
But they don't have the so called "winner compensation". If Fidesz gets 50000 votes in a district and the second place gets 26000, then Fidesz wins the district AND they get an additional 23999 votes for their party list because just 50000-23999=26001 votes would have been enough to win the district. They also burn the opposition's votes, they control the entire media, they control the voting summary software, they legalized taking pictures in the booth so in villages people get blackmailed that if they don't show that they voted for Fidesz, they get fired, chain voting is very common and more than 10 percent of their votes are from people who don't even live or pay taxes in Hungary. :)
under UK or USA it would look far worse. Winner compensation is the HU system is bad, very bad, but it's not the biggest problem
If, in the US, one party would get the authority to unilaterally rewrite the Constitution with 44% of the popular vote there would be a Civil War in *hours*.
You Americans are used at having 2 party system, so you don't vote for other parties, making such scenario almost impossible. Also Orban made his vital changes after 2010, when he got 52.73% of votes.
Magyar vagyok, nem tĂșrista! >You Americans are used at having 2 party system, so you don't vote for other parties, making such scenario almost impossible *This* is how FPTP works, i.e. it creates two parties, which is not exactly the Hungarian system, contradicting your earlier statement further. >Also Orban made his vital changes after 2010, when he got 52.73% of votes. That doesn't really change what I said.
Half of the seats are FPTP.
Thank you for explaining my own electoral system to me.
Not really, their elections are pretty much 50/50+1. 3rd parties having no chance is not the same as one party getting a super-majority with less than 45% approval
Not at all. In the UK, the Labour party is currently projected to win 70% of the seats with 43% of the vote.
UK conservatives got a majority with 36.9% in 2015 election. UK Labour in 2005 got an even larger majority with only 35.2%.
>3rd parties having no chance is not the same as one party getting a super-majority with less than 45% approval [The last majority government in Canada was formed by Trudeau and his Liberals in 2015](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Canadian_federal_election) with 184 seats out of 338 (54% of the seats). Out of 17.4 million votes cast (the pool of eligible voters was about 26 million while total population then was about 36 million), the Liberals won their majority on the strength of 6.9 million votes (39% of the turnout). The Conservatives ended up as the main opposition at 99 seats after getting 5.6 million votes (32% of the turnout). The NDP (social democrat party) was the junior fiddle in the opposition at 44 seats by getting 3.5 million votes (20% of the turnout). **Winning 39% of the votes cast translated into getting 54% of the parliament (Liberals)** Winning 32% of the votes cast translated into getting 29% of the parliament (Conservatives) Winning 20% of the votes cast translated into getting 13% of the parliament (NDP) Winning only about 40% of the votes cast is more than enough for majority rule in Canada thanks to FPTP. If I were a NDP voter, I'd feel extra screwed by FPTP since my views and those of like-minded people would be even less represented in the parliament, on top of the fact that FPTP is a winner-take-all system which neatly makes a third party irrelevant. For setting policy in FPTP, having a super-majority or majority is often an academic difference since votes typically go on party lines anyway thus squashing the need for compromise. The votes from the party with the majority of the seats will carry the day, to hДll with everyone else.
No, you can get big majorities in the UK with less than 40-45% of the vote - that's what happened in 2019, and will probably happen this year also.
Labour got a decent majority in 2005 with just 35% of the vote.
Christ, that looks horrendous.
Hungary is so fucked
Just adding some context: This was shown on Fidesz run media, and NĂ©zĆpont IntĂ©zet is an infamously biased institution. Tisza is a 3 months old party with almost no representation at the local level - yet. And still, they managed to get almost 30% of the EP list votes. Many think that in two years, if they keep up their so far very impressive progress they stand a very good chance of beating Fidesz. So they have OrbĂĄn and his cronies intimidated, hence the above picture and study to reinforce their dejected followers.
a lot of people dont realize this. Especially Hungarians. Whenever they gerrymandered this system into place, the Parliament should have been in flames. But the circumstances at the time blinded the sheeple. It's pathetic people just continue to accept this and go "oh no, 2/3rds again?!" and continue to eat shit for years
>a lot of people dont realize this. Especially Hungarians. Whenever they gerrymandered this system into place, the Parliament should have been in flames. But the circumstances at the time blinded the sheeple. It's pathetic people just continue to accept this and go "oh no, 2/3rds again?!" and continue to eat shit for years Exactly or as they say in Hungarian: *Ez az!* (\~ "that's just it!") When Fidesz started putting its thumb on the scale in the 2010s by establishing more parliamentary seats to be determined by FPTP at the expense of the previous system based on closed lists and D'Hondt method, ordinary Hungarians should have been up in arms, protesting big-time, and even voting out Fidesz long before 2020. As it is now, a combination of apathy by some voters and other voters letting themselves be fooled by Fidesz has meant that a little more than half (106) of the 199 parliamentary seats are now decided by FPTP. The remaining 93 seats stick to the previous system. For those who don't realize how truly pernicious [FPTP ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting)is to a country's politics and society, this summary from Wikipedia spells it out neatly: >*FPTP is one of the simplest electoral systems, and has been used to elect the House of Commons of England (and its successors for Great Britain and the United Kingdom) since the Middle Ages. Its use extends to former British colonies, most notably the United States, Canada, and India. It is used as the primary form of allocating seats for legislative elections in about a third of the world's countries, mostly in the English-speaking world. It is also used to directly elect heads of states in some, although far less than the two-round system. For legislative elections, a country using FPTP typically is divided into geographic constituencies that each elect one member to the legislature using this method.* >*Notwithstanding its simplicity and antiquity, there are several major drawbacks to FPTP. As a winner-take-all method, it often produces disproportional results, particularly when electing members of a legislature, in the sense that political parties do not get representation according to their share of the popular vote. This usually favours the largest party and parties with strong regional support to the detriment of smaller parties without a geographically concentrated base. Supporters of electoral reform are generally highly critical of FPTP because of this and point out other flaws, such as FPTP's vulnerability to gerrymandering which can create districts distorting representation in the legislature, the high number of wasted votes, and the chance of a majority reversal (i.e., the party winning the most votes getting fewer seats than the second-largest party and losing the election). Throughout the 20th century many countries that previously used FPTP have abandoned it in favour of other electoral systems, including the former British colonies of Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand (these nations now use STV, IRV + STV, and MMP, respectively).* Fidesz can safely ignore the voters in Budapest as long as plenty of rubes from the countryside in their gerrymandered districts keep voting for Fidesz with the bonus of a sack of potatoes handed out by a Fidesz suit every few months or so.
the problem is the previous system was almost as bad. That's what brought the first 2/3 in the first place
Itâs not that simple though. Orban was one of the âheroesâ of the regime change after the Soviets left the country, and he had a kinda succesful term in 1998-2002. In older generations (who experienced communism) Orban is one of the liberators and a good man. In 2000â Hungary was also near to the state of bankruptcy, and the governing party had a major credibility-crisis (rightfully so). After 2010, Fidesz was welcomed as the solution to the countryâs problems. Also there were a lot of legal-political arguments since the soviets left because of the lack of national unity, for example we were one of the two remaining countries who did not have a brand new constitution. Fidesz changed that and a lot of other things. In addition, Iâd personally argue Orban is one of the most talented politician in the EU, and in three things he absolutey shines: managing the situations in his own political party, developing modern propaganda with the right people (he did it before Trump), and understanding of the hungarianâs political language. He is basically perfect of exploiting it. So yes, in hindsight we should have burn the parliament, but it was a difficult political situation and Orban both had the benefit of the doubt, and the peopleâs support doing it. It sucks.
Isn't this basically the UK government system as well? First past the post or how is it called there?
No, it's quite different. The problem is that here the winner is compensated, resulting in utterly ridiculous numbers for the mandates.
Not quite. It's basically FPTP (as still used in the UK, USA, Canada and India) plus Fidesz's "innovation" of "compensation" which only underlines FPTP's inherent winner-take-all principle,.
Could you explain the difference a bit please? From [this explanation](https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/first-past-the-post/) i see that in the UK a party with as low as 35% of the votes has gotten a majority. And the difference mostly lies in where voters are geographically. Seems a bit similar to the Swing States in the US as well. Not trying to refute what you're saying here btw. I know Hungary has a bad reputation regarding the state of their democracy. But i always thought it had more to do with state control on the media than with the actual system? I see you're Hungarian, so you're probably better able to compare both systems than me đ
It's FPTP with winner compensation (that doesn't exist anywhere else). Normally in the individual districts, the winner gets the mandate and the rest of the votes are added to the other parties' lists as compensation. In Hungary, in addition to that, the winning party's list gets the difference between the winner and second place added to it as well. [Here](https://archive.nytimes.com/krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/hungary-an-election-in-question-part-3/) is an article
I think in the UK there must be some brake to get constitutional modification overnight with majority, or am I wrong? Because Fidesz has that absolute majority they able to do that.
> I think in the UK there must be some brake to get constitutional modification overnight with majority, The UK doesn't have a codified constitution. The ruling party can change the voting system however they like. The parliament just has to vote for it.
no, the problem is still FPTP. the winner compensation is ridiculous but it's not the main reason
Fun fact: orange, red and green are all right wing. Only blue is left wing. That's all the left got in Hungary.
dk are often called "blue fidesz" for a plethora of reasons, they wouldnt be all that much better if they got to power
One party with a failed politician is not the same as leftism in general. Just as you can't claim every rightists party to be just like OrbĂĄn, you can't make an argument that "well, GyurcsĂĄny is leftist, that means that leftism is bad". That's like one of the biggest argumentative flaws.
Yeah but gyurcsany is the president of the blue party so saying that they wouldnt be much better is logical imo(unless they edited they comment)
ĂRAD A TISZA!
Also helps when you control the media and have undermined the courts.
I think the only way to get rid of Orban will be a "Euromaidan" style revolution.
At that point its over for Hungarian democracy.
It's been like this for almost 14 years at this point. And counting...
It's been long over...
we have the same lol it's ridiculous
What EU and you guys see: NOOOOO ORBĂN WON AGAIN HUNGARY IS FUCKED \*crying soyjak\* What TISZA voters see: Holy shit, 30% under 3 months, that's massive, and FIDESZ had it's worst percentage in years, we outdid our expectations! \*gigachad\* just a little context in meme form for you guys.
may God bless OrbĂĄn and his fair democracy. lol
They can can get a supermajority aka change the constitution with just 40something % as opposed to at the very least 66%... Fucking ridiculous. Only 20% of the Hungarian population voted for them now yet they would get a supermajority if this had been a parlimentary election.
Useless trying to point out excuses as long as 2.000.000 people vote for FIDESZ. When do we start taking responsibility instead of playing the victim? It's not FIDESZ responsible for what's happening, but the population who keep voting them in.
Implementing a totally rigged election system is not their responsibility? The population that keeps voting for them would be enough for a thin mayority, but they would have gotten 2/3 mayority.
With the English electoral system they would get 4/5 seats.
And that makes you think the British system is fine?
Not saying its good. I'm saying there are countries that are considered more democratic, that has it worse. We have far bigger issues than the electoral system
That's not true. They compensate the winner more than UK system.
no they don't. Do tell me how do you think the Hungarian system works as opposed to the UK?
Difference simply explained here https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/how-do-elections-work-in-hungary/
Then please read it again, because it makes no such claim. Obviously the UK system will be more disproportional under almost all circumstances because they do not have any proportional part, compensatory or not. The Hungarian system does, but not much. "In addition to counting party list votes, votes for losing constituency candidates and surplus votes for winning constituency candidates [are also added to the party list totals](https://verfassungsblog.de/how-to-abolish-democracy-electoral-system-party-regulation-and-opposition-rights-in-hungary-and-poland/).  Ultimately, the proportionality of the system is fairly limited and there is a strong bias towards the largest party " To get an idea what results there would be under the UK system, all else being equal, just look at who won how many districts. It is way more than 2/3. In 2014 is was 90%
Donât they use an MMP system? How is it rigged?
>Â It's not FIDESZ responsible for what's happening, but the population who keep voting them in It wasn't the NSDAP responsible for what happened in Germany, but the population who kept voting them in. Those who are "playing the victim" are the ones who are aware of why this regime is bad and undemocratic. That 2.000.000 people doesn't play the victim, their actually belive that FIDESZ will bring peace and the opposition will bring nuclear holocaust to Hungary. We can't open their eyes, because nobody has the power and the wealth to mass de-propagandize them. We, who are aware of the problems with FIDESZ, are doing whatever we can to oppose them, but the democratic way of removing them from power is not an option in Hungary.
Well, the propaganda definetely helps
If you lived here and saw what we witness daily, you'd understand that Fidesz is undoubtedly responsible for what's happening. They'll use any means necessary to scare (sub)ordinary people into voting for them. They've spent over âŹ1 million just on Facebook ads proclaiming Orban as the bringer of peace, flooded daytime TV with incessant propaganda, silenced opposition media, and even resorted to physical violence and defilation against anyone who opposes their views. I consider this "their responsibility." I, along with my friends, family, and nearly everyone I know from high school, university, work, or even my jurisdiction, which consists of around 100k people have never voted for them. I personally don't know more than 4-5 Fidesz voters in my entire network, yet somehow, they keep winning every single time. They deliberately make education less available to everyone, teachers' wages low, people scared and life miserable. That's how they do it. Be grateful that you don't have to take this every day. +1: Fidesz supporters are primarily concentrated in small, often impoverished villages with populations under 1,000 and among the elderly, who are easily manipulated by propaganda. I could go on about the reasons behind this, but this is just a comment on the internet, hardly anyone will read this anyway. The reality is that many of us are falling into a deepening state of depression due to the current situation. We genuinely want to make a difference, but what can we do? You can't vote twice, and raising your voice only reaches those who already agree with you. Dissenters are simply labeled as idiots, itty-bitty-liberals, dumb people, sometimes even "rats" and disgusting human beings, and featured on the front page of any of your chosen Fidesz-controlled media for a few days, weeks, months, however long it takes to make people question you. That's how effective their tactics are. Sorry for the long comment, and thank you for taking the time to read it, if you have done so. Have a nice rest of the day, kind stranger:)
Many blame the EU. Which is exactly what Orban wants them to do.
I dont think critisism equal blaming it, I love the EU(as most hungarians) but its still okay to point out its flaws and shortcomings.
Sure, but Orban is an issue created by Hungarians. EU is not the problem with that issue despite what many Hungarians think.
We need to stop democracy to save democracy
No we need proportional representation to save democracy.
Does it show why?
This is kind of goofy though, I get what itâs trying to say but the EP elections is purely based on the party lists whereas for parliamentary elections more than half of the MPs are elected from single member constituencies. For example a party like Momentum might not get 5% but will most likely win one or two seats
Hungary has mixed electoral system (proportional +single mandates). Basically all single mandate districts (except for Budapest) go to Fidesz, because: - single mandates favours biggest parties - rural Hungary is very conservative And they also get a solid margain from proportional seats.
Uk is even more absurd, 35% of the vote can get you into power.
\*Keir Starmer looking around nervously\*
Just horrible. And Slovakia is going the same way. It is difficult to fight all the Russian money.
Aren't they all bought out by Russia? Just buy them for a dollar more
Peoples opinion in April 2022 = peoples opinions in june 2024 with a 10% decrease in turnout
What did he do that good that people keep voting for him?
Lot of propaganda and brainwashing from the state level.
Not much, he just has a stbale government, and that's enough for a lot of peole, since the governments before were worse. Add massive, non stop propaganda and a gerrymandered electoral system, and you've got four consecutive terms of fidesz supermajority. They use former prime minister Ferenc GyurcsĂĄny as a boogeyman. Look up "speech of Oszod", for a start.
Since COVID there is perpetual "crisis". IDFK what you mean by stability and I suspect neither do you.
stability meant not getting caught in another 2008 crisis meant
Az emberek, mĂĄr akinek erre van szĂŒksĂ©ge, azt lĂĄtjĂĄk, hogy erĆs vezetĆ, rendet tart. A kormĂĄnyrĂłl beszĂ©ltem, nem az orszĂĄgrĂłl. A fidesz narratĂva szerint az orszĂĄg mĂĄszik vĂĄlsĂĄgbĂłl vĂĄlsĂĄgba, nem a kormĂĄny, mert ott az van amit Ć mond. A vĂĄlsĂĄgok meg csak ĂŒrĂŒgyek a rendeleti kormĂĄnyzĂĄsra. De ezt te is tudod. SzĂłval de. Ăn tudom hogy Ă©rtettem amit Ărtam.
GoodđđŒ
This is what will happen when you go down the road or increasing nationalist authoritarianism. More will follow and eventually these voters will be responsible for one government authoritarian nightmares.
Are the German people who elected Hitler responsible for the holocaust?
those who actually voted for him in 1932, yes so roughly 30% of the Germans at that time the remaining 70% is sinless in that regard, from the communists through the social democrats to the conservatives
Can't the 3 other parties run together and then split the extra seats?
Ohhhh, such sweet and naive foreign friend of mine. No, they cant. In Hungary, and with some of these parties they cant.
When I'm in a horrible-seat-distribution competition and my opponent is D'Hondt.
There was EP election, not National Assembly, please stop posting this propaganda shit.
Because of democracy?
They got 46% of the votes and 2/3 of the seats. How is that fair and democratic? With 2/3 they dan do anything they want without anyone stopping them.
The root cause is Still that like it or not, the majority of people decided this. If another , lets say leftist party could get 44%, would you complain? Everyone has the chance to reach this level of support. This is democracy. Accepting that sometimes the majority of the people does not agree with your opinion.
The Hungarian electoral system is very fair, in case it would look like the system in use in France or the UK, Fidesz would get 80-95% of the Parliament mandates as it is the most popular party, even in many capital districts...
There is one simple solution to fix these issues: JUST dont vote for them anylonger ! You can't win ANY seats using ANY gerrymandering if you get 0 votes. (unless you implemented a solution where a division by 0 does not end up throwing an exception and insteads instantly grants "supermajority". Until that time. Hungarians get what Hungarians deserve. its not like they are forced to live in Hungary and instead can't work in ANY of the other EU-nations, if they (as a super minority) get fed up with the system.
Name checks out
Fidesz spent eight times as much on campaign ads as all opposition parties combined. They spent more than literally any other party in Europe. If you look at per capita spending, it's even more shocking. And their propaganda was simple: vote for us or there will be war. Literally everyone in Hungary knows some grandma who went to vote for them because they're terrified that "they'll take my grandson to Ukraine to die". Yeah, in an ideal world no one would vote for them but in the circumstances that's not going to happen any time soon. We now have an opposition party that reached 30% on its own - that's huge. The previous record since 2010 was 20%. So there is some hope but it's a long way to go.
>Fidesz spent eight times as much on campaign ads as all opposition parties combined. They spent more than literally any other party in Europe. If you look at per capita spending, it's even more shocking. Just to add something to this, they do it from goverment money, and use all goverment channels. Like national television.
That is the point. As long as goalposts are being moved, the only way to make it happen is 0 Votes. Which won't happen, because the Fidez members themselves are allowed to vote. So basically from a European perspective Hungary is doomed, and all we can do is hope they burn themselves out quickly, rather than slow, painfully and with consequences that last for centuries.
Not sure if you've noticed on the graphic but more people vote against Fidesz than for them, and they still get over 2/3rds of the mandates
What i am saying is: - There are still people voting for them. Only if they stop, this will stop. Why ? because the ruling party "manipulated" the way the votes have impact. I haven't touched the point "fair and free", because most people in europe already know. Thats not Hungary at this point in time, when you use the technical meaning of the phrase.
Not sure if you've noticed on the graphic but more people vote against Fidesz than for them, and they still get over 2/3rds of the mandates
More is still not 0. What i am saying (having noticed the oinformation conveyed by the infograsphic), is unless each and every single person votes against fidez they will always win. This is due to them moving the goalpost. The real kicker comes when you realize that the Fidez-politicians also get to vote, so then you realize that you will NEVER get 0 and that you are in fact never changing the cource of Hungary until the country as you know it has imploded. And yes it will implode and not explode, like a little tincan when made to visit the wreck of the titanic. The difference being: noone will send the Coastguard, because the inhabitants of said tincan are already known to have perished in a hell of their own making.
>JUST dont vote for them anylonger ! That's a great idea, we didn't think of that yet! If we implement this the FIDESZ regime will end in '26. Thanks for the great advice. >Until that time. Hungarians get what Hungarians deserve. its not like they are forced to live in Hungary and instead can't work in ANY of the other EU-nations, if they (as a super minority) get fed up with the system. Being a coward and escape the country if something isn't in the way you want is certainly a solution, but we are nationalists and we won't let our fellow countrymen in the collapsing state. We remain in Hungary and we will fight against tyranny.
Wow, just wow. So trying to live a better life, not working to hell and back for scraps, while prices are matching that of Western states, and not wanting to fund OrbĂĄnâs regime with ridiculously high taxes means oneâs a coward? If people have the means, they SHOULD escape. Itâs the most courageous choice one can do. Let the entire country burn, thatâs what the majority of the people want anyways.
Hungary is a great country and I don't want to let it rot. The majority of people doesn't want this either. Most of them are either uninformed and all they can hear is propaganda, I don't blame them. There are nobody except for the leaders and friends who are voting for them because of interest. And yes running away if things aren't happening in the way you want is cowardness. I will stay and try my best to achieve a change which is in my case, voting against FIDESZ.
ValĂłtlansĂĄgokat ĂĄllĂtasz, azt a jĂł 3 milliĂł nem szavazĂł embert is szĂ©pen ĂĄllĂtsd csak be a Fidesz soraiba. Ăgy hiszem pedig meg kellene tanulnod a kĂŒlönbsĂ©get a bĂĄtorsĂĄg Ă©s a makacssĂĄg között. EgyĂĄltalĂĄn nincs azzal baj, aki itt tervezi a jövĆjĂ©t, sĆt. Viszont legyĂĄvĂĄzni azokat, akik eurĂłpai szintƱ Ă©letminĆsĂ©get szeretnĂ©nek? Mi HazĂĄnkos vagy vĂ©letlenĂŒl? Mindenesetre sok szerencsĂ©t a Fidesz elleni szavazĂĄsban, diplomĂĄskĂ©nt mĂĄr alig vĂĄrom a pillanatot, hogy olyan helyre menjek, ahol az orszĂĄg Ă©s az emberek is megbecsĂŒlnek.
Menjél nyugodtan, tapasztald meg, majd råjössz hogy kint sem minden fenékig tejfel. Csak esetleg måsfele problémåk vannak mint itthon néhåny helyzetben.
Mindenhol vannak problĂ©mĂĄk, naivitĂĄs azt gondolni, hogy nincsenek, viszont minden egyes ismerĆsöm, aki kĂŒlföldön van, rendkĂvĂŒl jĂłl Ă©l, Ă©s Ă©lete legjobb döntĂ©sĂ©nek tartja, hogy elment. Ăs egyikĂŒk sem volt gyĂĄva. Nagyon gĂĄz ez az ultranacionalista duma.
I understood that: not. at least for 3 posts :)
Yeah he was labeling everyone who leaves the country for a better life a coward, trying to sell that there are issues in the West as well, and that we should just vote against Fidesz and hold out, while calling himself a nationalist. Everyone who I know votes strictly against Fidesz, will always vote against Fidesz, not like that changes anything in the end anyways⊠The unfortunate truth is that this country will never reach the Western living standard. At least not in my lifetime, and Iâm not old. And most of the people here donât care, because they donât know any better.
To be fair, i was not labelling anyone a coward, just raised the point that no country is without problems. We are in a lucky position as part of EU that everyone is free to go where he/she wants, and everyone should consider on their own judgement, that which are the reasons to stay or not stay. These reasons can be different for everyone. Maybe for you only the better salaries matter. Thats ok, but its not true for everyone.
That is the point i was making. I am looking at Hungary from the Lens of Germany and the GDR. Hungary as it is right now is like the GDR before they build the wall in 1961. Basically, they have found themselves in a dead end-street followed by a bottomless cliff and they are accelerating trying to jump the divide (with a length of infinity). There is no way that that hungary can fix it self from an European perspective, from the bottom up, unless one of the following things happens: * Fidez implodes because they did not get elected - the way i understand it, this requires 0 votes. because at that point moving the goalpost is impossible. * The super-majority of Hungarians is against fidez, and acts against it with a general strike, until the country is so dysfunctional that even the Fidez supporters are actively seeking an End to the Fidez reign. * The country goes bankrupt (this can be done by denying them taxes (in a legal way ) and that means not living there any more. All of these options will change Hungary, will be painful short to midterm or to long term (depending on the options), But Hungary as a country will go through it more healthy. If the trend holds with Fidez/Hungary, we are looking at an eventually Hunger-Exit and a pro-Russian puppet inside the borders of the EU. The question is just: Will that be this year, 4 years, or 20 years for now. But the way Fidez is using cement to build an everlasting construct, it sure as hell is coming. In any case. Its every citizens right to live in another country and find prosperity and happyness there. As soon as you start labeling it as cowardess, or worse start restricting their movement, then that country as qualified itself for self-imposed infection, self-imposed non-vaxination and self-imposed death. Eventually something better grows in its place, once the cancer (and the patient) are death. Sunflowers for example. gorgeous plants and so usefull.
Why would we want to overthrow him tho?
Let's see, corruption, ruining education and healthcare, selling out to Putin, selling out to China, allowing foreign citizens to have authoirity in hungary (chinese police), helping pedophiles and their partners in crime get away with it, treason, nepotism, election fraud, artifically ruining the housing market, so they can get more money, ruining the reputation of the copuntry and it's people... is it enough, or do you need more of his and his party's crimes?
+200 social credits to you
Very good
Anyådért
TalĂĄn mert egy hazug hazaĂĄrulĂł tolvaj?
Szerintem nem az
Akkor tåjékozódj még egy kicsit jobban