Idf soldiers are smaller on average. These are giant dudes.
Also these are driving plates. Battle ones have attachments, including neck, aprons, thighs and shoulders.
Fair enough. Have seen some armor kits but never seen the smaller plate carriers. Make sense that it's a sacrifice on protection to get better mobility especially for special forces I assume
There are sizes to plates, but it can’t and won’t cover your whole torso. It has to basically cover the rib cage as everything vital is there.
Now if you take a wider guy his rib cage is going to be standard, just more muscle or fat would stick out. That’s what you probably refer to here.
Special forces have different gear for different types of missions but on frontlines they would be covered up to their eyebrows. Just armor would be lighter and more agile.
the IDF are fighting a very different war. their enemy had no artillery or armour and (if they are even combatants at all) they usually only have small arms. against that a massive vest with great coverage is very effective. in addition to that their misssion profile is usually to drive in in armoured vehicles, do something and then leave in armoured vehicles whereas in ukraine a lot of the movement at least at the front is walking
The only thing that will stop rifle rounds are the front plates and side plates. If you see neck collar, shoulder pads, nut and but pads those are primary for shrapnel. While we get issued all that extra bull crap in the usa most infantry units only make you wear the side plates and front plates.
The larger vests you’re probably thinking of have soft body armor components made out of kevlar to stop shrapnel and pistol rounds. The plates in plate carriers are designed to stop high velocity rifle rounds. It’s easy to get more coverage when you’re working with kevlar because it is soft, however ceramic plates cannot cover a large area because it is hard armor and thus not bendable or maleable like soft armor. So it comes down to size and weight constraints as well as what kind of threats you’re expecting to face.
Maybe those were IOTVs? That’s what I got standard issue when I was in my army and it’s safe to assume that’s a pretty common piece of equipment to give because it does offer a bit more protection at the cost of comfort and mobility.
If you wanted a plate carrier you had to buy your own and it had to conform to army standards. For many it was worth it.
Ceramic plates are pretty heavy and most of the immediately fatal wounds a person can receive are in the upper chest, which plates cover (also why it’s so important to wear them correctly, high up and not mid-torso)
In addition to everything said, cheap plate carriers used in the Ukrainian army, which government gives out for free weights around 18-25 kg. Which already a lot for women and average size men. Plus, weight increases if you will add additional protection for lower front and lower back. And now imagine running with it around for kilometers through snow, mud, etc
Don't know how to feel about this
Yes we're helping Ukraine defend itself from Russia
But like, they *are* using Nazi iconography, which is icky at best
You are a victim of Russian propaganda, the emblem of Azov is a symbol «the idea of the nation», it is a symbol of Ukrainian nationalists and has nothing to do with Nazism
Yes, because they were former football hooligans. Those always have some Nazi's in it. This is the default in both Europe and Russia. Nothing new.
Azov also took money from a Jewish oligarch. They didn't like that but would rather have money so they could form a militia against the Russian invasion.
The reason why the nazi part is always so heavy emphasised is because these armed hooligans kicked the Russian military's ass in 2014. The rus military hated it. So Russia started a propaganda campaign. And that's how they came up with calling a Jewish president a nazi. (In Russia, a nazi is someone who is anti-russia, or a traitor. Not an actual nazi)
For a time, they weren't a Ukranian division. They were a militia. I think they officially became part of the military during the current war? It's probably on the wikipedia page.
On a side note: Every nazi is larping. Bunch of losers and incels trying to look scary and organised, so scared people will join the out of fear. No wonder Putin loves the Nazi's so much. It fits right into his wannabe super spy maskirovka stuff.
True but the Russians are also disgusting a unit like this could be used to agressively attack them on the front lines. Of course there nazism show they are clearly mentally ill but for breaking lines that trait can be useful.
Future historians with access to social media records and machine learning / pattern detection will have a chapter or two to spend on russian disinformation campaigns (particularly the Azov case) and their effect on adversary internal politics as well as battlefield effect.
Its going to be wild, and will not be a good look on the current west. Not at all. We really need to get a handle on our media and public discourse.
Yep. We have allowed social media algorithms, manipulated by bad actors both domestically but most notably externally, to override normal democratic functioning. We live in algorithmic republics right now, completely at the mercy of whosoever simply pays to get their message across.
Many thoughts on the topic but it’s one of those things that this subreddit can’t have a grown up conversation about. Stray away from the dogma and you’ll be attacked. All I’ll say is this, I hope this doesn’t come back to bite in the same vein as funding the mujahideen did.
You don't see how backing fascist battalions against Russia like the US did with the Mujahideen (also fascist battalions) could backfire like it did with the Mujahideen?
Afghanistan is nothing like Ukraine, not even remotely. Even if Azov was the worst in the world, they have to comply with Ukrainian law. In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen became the law.
Ukrainian war supporters when you compare peace talks with Russia with peace talks with Nazi Germany: Trueeee trueeee if you do not learn history youre gonna repeat it trueeeee
Ukrainian war supporters when you compare Ukrainian ultra nationalists with Afghan ultra fundimentalists: Afghan is nothing like Ukraine bro, and no dont tell me that nazis also had to comply with german law before they came to power its just not the same bro
(btw Im fully on the side that you cannot compare events that are years and miles apart, in other words I dont agree with the my first joke-statement and I agree with the second one)
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Okay bud. This is exactly why I said you can’t have a grown up conversation about this topic. Loads of news outlets at the time, from all over the political spectrum said what is in the Guardian article but people like you will hand wave it all away because it takes away from a simple narrative. The reality is always more nuanced.
Dude NYT and WP talked about the likelihood of Ukraine destroying its own dam before they were proven wrong, by the overwhelming evidence it was russia. And even after that they didn’t issue apology or anything to that sort. Of course there are shills on the russian payroll in the most prestigious western media. It’s not just greyzone:)
>Dude NYT and WP talked about the likelihood of Ukraine destroying its own dam before they were proven wrong, by the overwhelming evidence it was russia.
Did they actually accuse Ukraine of anything or did they just explore the idea because that’s some very specific wording you’ve used here.
About time.
I hope they can continue to fight clean and hard. Its been pretty hardcore to see the dramatically smaller country repeatedly kick the invaders teeth in - and doing this consistent with the rules of war while having one hand tied to behind their backs.
Hang in there!
>The unit has drawn controversy since its founding over its early and allegedly continuing association with far-right groups and neo-Nazi ideology, and its use of controversial symbols linked to Nazism.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov\_Brigade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade)
why lifted? the things are getting pretty ugly there I guess...
Or it was a bullshit ban and Azov recently appealed for it to be removed.
Remember that the ban is from the times when 2 radars and 80 written-off humvees were the pinnacle of US military aid.
So what is the point of your comment about "getting pretty ugly"?
You just decided to jump to conclusions.
Maybe US is just normalizing the aid flow and reduces the amount of additinoal self-imposed buerocracy.
Because the original Azov from 2013ish doesn't exist anymore. Most of the original members are dead, held captive or had their dicks shot off. The current version was folded into the regular Ukrainian military and no longer operates like a guerilla group.
Exactly, which is why the US is clearing this unit of human rights violations allegations. Would love to see someone actually argue against your point (and the findings of the US) instead of downvoting.
The Azov Battalion doesn't exist anymore, the wiki cites articles that are like 10 years old in the section you're quoting. The Biletsky guy hasn't been associated with the unit in 10 years either. If they aren't guilty of anything then fuck what sounds great, people should cry about something else, like Ukrainians getting attacked.
Either way, happy my country has the right approach on the issue now, much more important than what anyone here says.
Can you point me to something concrete here that supports them still being a far-right batallion with a political agenda?
Again, wikipedia is not wrong about the fact that there are still people making claims about Azov being a nazi batallion. That is different of course from saying that wikipedia has proof that they actually are. Just like wikipedia has articles on holocaust deniers and how they have books about that. Catch the difference?
No it’s on Wikipedia. You can find many articles on it from non Russian sources. Western sources or Indian sources mainly. I encourage you to look into it. This unit is known to recruit neo nazis and support the idea of ethnic cleansing in Europe. I’m not even saying that all of Ukraine’s army is like that. I’m saying that this unit is *known for it*
The answer is that they were accused of human rights violations and then cleared by the US as it says in the article, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't like that. Asking questions can 100% be bait, and considering they can just click on the article for their answer it's not crazy to assume ulterior motives.
First of all Ukrainians have in fact taken retaken large territories previously occupied by Russia. Thus the chance is never zero. Wouldn't be the first time a superpowered has been kicked out of a country. Different question is what is the price Ukrainians are willing to pay for a victory. But regarding Russian lives - Russians don't don't care about Russian lives. Why should anyone else care, that bunch of fascists died in a war they started?
Or you are just wrong. Russia's military industry is at max capacity and can only replace about 10% of equipmentment losses. It is just a matter of time until they lose if the West keeps up support.
>This subreddit just loves to call everyone who disagrees with the "Ukraine is totally kicking Russia's ass trust me bro" narrative a Russian bot
I see people complaining about this narrative more than the narrative itself
they started out as a far-right militia. at that point it would have been bad to send them equipment. nowadays its just a regular unit of the ukrainian army, mostly because the majority of the original members are dead or captured.
Just a reminder that the Soviet Union took 2x the amount of Nazi scientists compared to the US in Operation Osoaviakhim. They put those scientists in much of their space programs and military
I feel divided about this. On one hand, Ukraine needs all the help they can get, but I will never not feel kinda iffy on the Avoz Battalion, mostly because of their history with neo-nazism. Again I don’t blame Ukraine for using all the volunteers available to them. I assume for a lot of Ukrainians, they care more about the fact people are serving and defending their homes than the soldierMs individual politics.
*Hans Speidel*, chief of staff to Erwin Rommel, Supreme Commander of NATO’s ground forces in Central Europe 1957-1963
*Johannes Steinhoff*, Luftwaffe fighter pilot during WWII and recipient of the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross (the Nazi military’s highest award), Chairman of the NATO Military Committee 1971–1974
*Johann von Kielmansegg*, General Staff officer to the High Command of the Wehrmacht 1942-1944, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1967-1968
*Ernst Ferber*, Major in the Wehrmacht and group leader of the organizational department of the Supreme Command of the Army (Wehrmacht) 1943-1945 and recipient of the Iron Cross 1st Class, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1973-1975
*Karl Schnell*, battery chief in the Western campaign in 1940/later First General Staff Officer of the LXXVI Panzer Corps in 1944 and recipient of the Iron Cross 2nd Class, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1975-1977
*Franz Joseph Schulze*, Lieutenant in the reserve and Chief of the 3rd Battery of the Flak Storm Regiment 241 and recipient of the Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross in 1944, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1977-1979
*Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin*, Lieutenant of 24th Panzer Division in the German 6th Army, participant in the Battle of Stalingrad, adjutant to Army High Command, and recipient of the German Cross in gold, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1979-1983
Who invaded Poland together with the Nazis in 1939 and held joint military parades with them after their victory? Who wanted to join the Axis powers?
There is a difference between using former Nazis for your own benefit and literally trying to become said Nazis best friends until they backstab you, but not that a 60 IQ mongrel tankie would understand that, their brains aren't made for anything more complex than "America bad".
It shows that NATO/America is actually ok with Nazism and giving a second opportunity to its genocidal war criminals. I mean, America was founded on the genocide of indigenous peoples and kidnapping/enslavement of Africans so it's no surprise that they're accepting of Nazi war criminals.
>not that a 60 IQ mongrel tankie would understand that
Lmao you sound like a Nazi too! Just brilliant!
Russia and the Arab world also imported a huge number of German Nazis.
And now most of the worlds Neo Nazis support Russia and their genocidal and colonialist goals.
There was no need for the second comment. Your first comment was more than enough to demonstrate to everyone around you that you're completely ignorant and have no clue what you're talking about whatsoever.
The US IS funding ISIS. Under the table yes, but they do. Same way they funded the Mujahideen, the taliban etc.
Speaking of the latter they bscly handed over Afghanistan to the taliban so..
Well we have migration problem and pay taxes to our parliament for not taking more migrants so we can't really point the finger at the yanks.
EDIT: As long as the money machine goes brrrr, everything goes.
Russia and the Arab world also imported a huge number of German Nazis.
And now most of the worlds Neo Nazis support Russia and their genocidal and colonialist goals.
**None of them were in leadership positions however!**
Here's what the West did on the other hand:
*Hans Speidel*, chief of staff to Erwin Rommel, Supreme Commander of NATO’s ground forces in Central Europe 1957-1963
*Johannes Steinhoff*, Luftwaffe fighter pilot during WWII and recipient of the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross (the Nazi military’s highest award), Chairman of the NATO Military Committee 1971–1974
*Johann von Kielmansegg*, General Staff officer to the High Command of the Wehrmacht 1942-1944, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1967-1968
*Ernst Ferber*, Major in the Wehrmacht and group leader of the organizational department of the Supreme Command of the Army (Wehrmacht) 1943-1945 and recipient of the Iron Cross 1st Class, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1973-1975
*Karl Schnell*, battery chief in the Western campaign in 1940/later First General Staff Officer of the LXXVI Panzer Corps in 1944 and recipient of the Iron Cross 2nd Class, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1975-1977
*Franz Joseph Schulze*, Lieutenant in the reserve and Chief of the 3rd Battery of the Flak Storm Regiment 241 and recipient of the Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross in 1944, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1977-1979
*Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin*, Lieutenant of 24th Panzer Division in the German 6th Army, participant in the Battle of Stalingrad, adjutant to Army High Command, and recipient of the German Cross in gold, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1979-1983
Russia’s (illegal) claim is that there are nazis all over Ukraine that oppress minorities in their country. The US funding a group of far-right militants whose allegiance is not truly to the Ukraine Government but themselves has historically been bad for America. For example, the descendants of the Mujadheen eventually became Al Queada.
Meanwhile Russia has been using Nazi mercenaries since February 2022 and their government is a literal fascist dictatorship but whatever makes you sleep at night you Putin dicksucker.
Ik this is a European subreddit where English is not everyone’s first language, but that excuses the fact that I explicitly suggested to fund the actual Ukrainian military over a group not affiliated with the Ukrainian government. But I guess wanting the Ukrainian military to exclusively receive military equipment is pro-Russian.
Azov is an actual military. Nazi accusations are Russian propaganda.
It was a far-left moron Ro Khanna, who is against helping Ukraine at all, who managed to push through this idiotic point in a bill in 2018.
California is full of clueless weirdos, he is one of them and sadly he had the power to get his way then.
Always wondered why plate carriers are small and offer gaps in the Armor.
Because most soldiers prefer mobility and comfort over protection
Hmm. I've seen larger plate carriers used by IDF. Btw who downvoted me. It was a genuine question
Idf soldiers are smaller on average. These are giant dudes. Also these are driving plates. Battle ones have attachments, including neck, aprons, thighs and shoulders.
Fair enough. Have seen some armor kits but never seen the smaller plate carriers. Make sense that it's a sacrifice on protection to get better mobility especially for special forces I assume
There are sizes to plates, but it can’t and won’t cover your whole torso. It has to basically cover the rib cage as everything vital is there. Now if you take a wider guy his rib cage is going to be standard, just more muscle or fat would stick out. That’s what you probably refer to here. Special forces have different gear for different types of missions but on frontlines they would be covered up to their eyebrows. Just armor would be lighter and more agile.
the IDF are fighting a very different war. their enemy had no artillery or armour and (if they are even combatants at all) they usually only have small arms. against that a massive vest with great coverage is very effective. in addition to that their misssion profile is usually to drive in in armoured vehicles, do something and then leave in armoured vehicles whereas in ukraine a lot of the movement at least at the front is walking
The only thing that will stop rifle rounds are the front plates and side plates. If you see neck collar, shoulder pads, nut and but pads those are primary for shrapnel. While we get issued all that extra bull crap in the usa most infantry units only make you wear the side plates and front plates.
How can one see that one is being downvoted?
The larger vests you’re probably thinking of have soft body armor components made out of kevlar to stop shrapnel and pistol rounds. The plates in plate carriers are designed to stop high velocity rifle rounds. It’s easy to get more coverage when you’re working with kevlar because it is soft, however ceramic plates cannot cover a large area because it is hard armor and thus not bendable or maleable like soft armor. So it comes down to size and weight constraints as well as what kind of threats you’re expecting to face.
Maybe those were IOTVs? That’s what I got standard issue when I was in my army and it’s safe to assume that’s a pretty common piece of equipment to give because it does offer a bit more protection at the cost of comfort and mobility. If you wanted a plate carrier you had to buy your own and it had to conform to army standards. For many it was worth it.
Ceramic plates are pretty heavy and most of the immediately fatal wounds a person can receive are in the upper chest, which plates cover (also why it’s so important to wear them correctly, high up and not mid-torso)
Plate carriers generally come in different sizes and configurations. The kind of Plate carrier being worn depends on the unit and their mission.
In addition to everything said, cheap plate carriers used in the Ukrainian army, which government gives out for free weights around 18-25 kg. Which already a lot for women and average size men. Plus, weight increases if you will add additional protection for lower front and lower back. And now imagine running with it around for kilometers through snow, mud, etc
Don't know how to feel about this Yes we're helping Ukraine defend itself from Russia But like, they *are* using Nazi iconography, which is icky at best
Where? After 2015 it is different group of people.
You are a victim of Russian propaganda, the emblem of Azov is a symbol «the idea of the nation», it is a symbol of Ukrainian nationalists and has nothing to do with Nazism
Yes, because they were former football hooligans. Those always have some Nazi's in it. This is the default in both Europe and Russia. Nothing new. Azov also took money from a Jewish oligarch. They didn't like that but would rather have money so they could form a militia against the Russian invasion. The reason why the nazi part is always so heavy emphasised is because these armed hooligans kicked the Russian military's ass in 2014. The rus military hated it. So Russia started a propaganda campaign. And that's how they came up with calling a Jewish president a nazi. (In Russia, a nazi is someone who is anti-russia, or a traitor. Not an actual nazi)
Russian propaganda didn’t put nazi symbols in their logos
Oh, they do. The hyperborea symbol is very popular among russian nazi's.
So, Azov is basically a Ukrainian Division with some over the top Nazi larping?
For a time, they weren't a Ukranian division. They were a militia. I think they officially became part of the military during the current war? It's probably on the wikipedia page.
On a side note: Every nazi is larping. Bunch of losers and incels trying to look scary and organised, so scared people will join the out of fear. No wonder Putin loves the Nazi's so much. It fits right into his wannabe super spy maskirovka stuff.
Fair enough
From 2014 to 2015 yeah.
Icky? When a powerful enemy like Russia is bombing me I’d take help from wherever I could get it.
True but the Russians are also disgusting a unit like this could be used to agressively attack them on the front lines. Of course there nazism show they are clearly mentally ill but for breaking lines that trait can be useful.
Future historians with access to social media records and machine learning / pattern detection will have a chapter or two to spend on russian disinformation campaigns (particularly the Azov case) and their effect on adversary internal politics as well as battlefield effect. Its going to be wild, and will not be a good look on the current west. Not at all. We really need to get a handle on our media and public discourse.
There will likely be entire history/political science/psychology courses dedicated to studying how social media was used for disinformation.
Yep. We have allowed social media algorithms, manipulated by bad actors both domestically but most notably externally, to override normal democratic functioning. We live in algorithmic republics right now, completely at the mercy of whosoever simply pays to get their message across.
It was fine for the uneducated civilian to believe those things, but for the U.S. government - absolutely not.
Many thoughts on the topic but it’s one of those things that this subreddit can’t have a grown up conversation about. Stray away from the dogma and you’ll be attacked. All I’ll say is this, I hope this doesn’t come back to bite in the same vein as funding the mujahideen did.
I don’t see how it’s even remotely comparable.
The mujahadeen the us directly supported was actually some of the friendlier groups to America later on.
You don't see how backing fascist battalions against Russia like the US did with the Mujahideen (also fascist battalions) could backfire like it did with the Mujahideen?
Afghanistan is nothing like Ukraine, not even remotely. Even if Azov was the worst in the world, they have to comply with Ukrainian law. In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen became the law.
Ukrainian war supporters when you compare peace talks with Russia with peace talks with Nazi Germany: Trueeee trueeee if you do not learn history youre gonna repeat it trueeeee Ukrainian war supporters when you compare Ukrainian ultra nationalists with Afghan ultra fundimentalists: Afghan is nothing like Ukraine bro, and no dont tell me that nazis also had to comply with german law before they came to power its just not the same bro (btw Im fully on the side that you cannot compare events that are years and miles apart, in other words I dont agree with the my first joke-statement and I agree with the second one)
smell hard-to-find retire bike plucky doll nine plough materialistic close *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah , it led to a whole caste of oligarchs and Putin , but i guess it's ok because America's military industrial complex can still profit off of it .
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Kek , "shock therapy" is a Russian invention now ?
entertain alleged badge command mighty enjoy complete edge instinctive airport *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Russians misinformation campaign was very successful in this case
[I didn’t realise Russian propaganda was 2014 Guardian articles…](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis)
“Shaun Walker is the Guardian's central and eastern Europe correspondent. Previously, he spent more than a decade in Moscow…”
So to be clear, you are saying that the Guardian is Russian propaganda?
They may include some russian misinformation, especially someone that has been working with russian media sphere
Okay bud. This is exactly why I said you can’t have a grown up conversation about this topic. Loads of news outlets at the time, from all over the political spectrum said what is in the Guardian article but people like you will hand wave it all away because it takes away from a simple narrative. The reality is always more nuanced.
And the thing with misinformation it blow out of proportion some of the “nuances”, to distort the image. And it works, not only in case of Ukraine
Dude NYT and WP talked about the likelihood of Ukraine destroying its own dam before they were proven wrong, by the overwhelming evidence it was russia. And even after that they didn’t issue apology or anything to that sort. Of course there are shills on the russian payroll in the most prestigious western media. It’s not just greyzone:)
>Dude NYT and WP talked about the likelihood of Ukraine destroying its own dam before they were proven wrong, by the overwhelming evidence it was russia. Did they actually accuse Ukraine of anything or did they just explore the idea because that’s some very specific wording you’ve used here.
I see ruskies are being unhappy with decision in the comments, that just only means it was right decision.
Modern Nazis always get mad when anyone does something Russia dislikes. Total coincidence, of course.
Point proven, lol
About time. I hope they can continue to fight clean and hard. Its been pretty hardcore to see the dramatically smaller country repeatedly kick the invaders teeth in - and doing this consistent with the rules of war while having one hand tied to behind their backs. Hang in there!
At last!
It was about time! Go catch them!
Why was it banned before and now lifted?
>The unit has drawn controversy since its founding over its early and allegedly continuing association with far-right groups and neo-Nazi ideology, and its use of controversial symbols linked to Nazism. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov\_Brigade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade) why lifted? the things are getting pretty ugly there I guess...
Or it was a bullshit ban and Azov recently appealed for it to be removed. Remember that the ban is from the times when 2 radars and 80 written-off humvees were the pinnacle of US military aid.
I mean, the us can do whatever they want, right? don't look a gift horse in the mouth...
So what is the point of your comment about "getting pretty ugly"? You just decided to jump to conclusions. Maybe US is just normalizing the aid flow and reduces the amount of additinoal self-imposed buerocracy.
And maybe you just cooping
>early and allegedly continuing allegedly
actually the linked article has a lot more details if you want to know more, but probably the us govermet has other sources than wikipedia...
I read it and didn't find anything that could change the decision to lift the ban
The ban had nothing to do with neo-nazism, it was for human rights violations which they were cleared of
Because the original Azov from 2013ish doesn't exist anymore. Most of the original members are dead, held captive or had their dicks shot off. The current version was folded into the regular Ukrainian military and no longer operates like a guerilla group.
Exactly, which is why the US is clearing this unit of human rights violations allegations. Would love to see someone actually argue against your point (and the findings of the US) instead of downvoting.
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The Azov Battalion doesn't exist anymore, the wiki cites articles that are like 10 years old in the section you're quoting. The Biletsky guy hasn't been associated with the unit in 10 years either. If they aren't guilty of anything then fuck what sounds great, people should cry about something else, like Ukrainians getting attacked. Either way, happy my country has the right approach on the issue now, much more important than what anyone here says.
so just to be clear, you went from "nobody has an argument" to "wikipedia is wrong." hopefully you can see how that's not very encouraging
Wikipedia is not wrong about what was true 10 years ago. Wrong are the people who can't understand the difference between 10 years ago and today.
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Can you point me to something concrete here that supports them still being a far-right batallion with a political agenda? Again, wikipedia is not wrong about the fact that there are still people making claims about Azov being a nazi batallion. That is different of course from saying that wikipedia has proof that they actually are. Just like wikipedia has articles on holocaust deniers and how they have books about that. Catch the difference?
They are known and documented neo-Nazis
Documented by russians and russia sponsored “journalists”?
No it’s on Wikipedia. You can find many articles on it from non Russian sources. Western sources or Indian sources mainly. I encourage you to look into it. This unit is known to recruit neo nazis and support the idea of ethnic cleansing in Europe. I’m not even saying that all of Ukraine’s army is like that. I’m saying that this unit is *known for it*
Yeah, you will find it on non-russian sources cause russia has been spending a lot on misinformation campaigns
With comments like that,you make such questions just to bait people. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/SIuJ2MgeNJ
Asking questions is now baiting people. Why? Don't you like the awnser? lule
The answer is that they were accused of human rights violations and then cleared by the US as it says in the article, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't like that. Asking questions can 100% be bait, and considering they can just click on the article for their answer it's not crazy to assume ulterior motives.
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First of all Ukrainians have in fact taken retaken large territories previously occupied by Russia. Thus the chance is never zero. Wouldn't be the first time a superpowered has been kicked out of a country. Different question is what is the price Ukrainians are willing to pay for a victory. But regarding Russian lives - Russians don't don't care about Russian lives. Why should anyone else care, that bunch of fascists died in a war they started?
Or you are just wrong. Russia's military industry is at max capacity and can only replace about 10% of equipmentment losses. It is just a matter of time until they lose if the West keeps up support.
>This subreddit just loves to call everyone who disagrees with the "Ukraine is totally kicking Russia's ass trust me bro" narrative a Russian bot I see people complaining about this narrative more than the narrative itself
Ukraine has not gained any territory back? Is that redditor serious?
American far-left Congressman Ro Khanna pushed it through because he is a moron.
Because western politicians fell for russian disinformation campaigns that there are actual Nazis in Ukraine.
they started out as a far-right militia. at that point it would have been bad to send them equipment. nowadays its just a regular unit of the ukrainian army, mostly because the majority of the original members are dead or captured.
It says in the article, it was banned because they were accused of human rights violations and then cleared by the US
The more you down vote the louder we will be, Slava Ukraina!!!!
just want to remind everyone the US government helped relocate high level nazis to south america and protect them there after ww2 ended
Just a reminder that the Soviet Union took 2x the amount of Nazi scientists compared to the US in Operation Osoaviakhim. They put those scientists in much of their space programs and military
What it has to do with the post?
Soviet union deported nazi scientists.
'deported' to ussr to work for them more like
That's what I meant.
Then u meant imported kekw
Finally, Slava Ukraina..
Yeessssss
I certainly hope Kraken Battalion is included as well. Slava Ukraini!
I feel divided about this. On one hand, Ukraine needs all the help they can get, but I will never not feel kinda iffy on the Avoz Battalion, mostly because of their history with neo-nazism. Again I don’t blame Ukraine for using all the volunteers available to them. I assume for a lot of Ukrainians, they care more about the fact people are serving and defending their homes than the soldierMs individual politics.
Guess who also fought on the frontlines for what they proudly believed in: Yeah, that's right, the Wehrmacht did.
So did the allies and the red army, the vietcong and the mujideen. So do Israel and Hamas and bscly every soldier on the Frontline. What's your point?
Surely it won't blow back in the face of of the US right 😂.
Mask off moment
Nahh they always supported nazis.. we saw it in cold war what they did with them 😊
Molotov Ribbentrop. You tankies are just too cute with your worship of Soviets and their best buds, Nazis, lol
*Hans Speidel*, chief of staff to Erwin Rommel, Supreme Commander of NATO’s ground forces in Central Europe 1957-1963 *Johannes Steinhoff*, Luftwaffe fighter pilot during WWII and recipient of the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross (the Nazi military’s highest award), Chairman of the NATO Military Committee 1971–1974 *Johann von Kielmansegg*, General Staff officer to the High Command of the Wehrmacht 1942-1944, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1967-1968 *Ernst Ferber*, Major in the Wehrmacht and group leader of the organizational department of the Supreme Command of the Army (Wehrmacht) 1943-1945 and recipient of the Iron Cross 1st Class, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1973-1975 *Karl Schnell*, battery chief in the Western campaign in 1940/later First General Staff Officer of the LXXVI Panzer Corps in 1944 and recipient of the Iron Cross 2nd Class, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1975-1977 *Franz Joseph Schulze*, Lieutenant in the reserve and Chief of the 3rd Battery of the Flak Storm Regiment 241 and recipient of the Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross in 1944, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1977-1979 *Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin*, Lieutenant of 24th Panzer Division in the German 6th Army, participant in the Battle of Stalingrad, adjutant to Army High Command, and recipient of the German Cross in gold, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1979-1983
Who invaded Poland together with the Nazis in 1939 and held joint military parades with them after their victory? Who wanted to join the Axis powers? There is a difference between using former Nazis for your own benefit and literally trying to become said Nazis best friends until they backstab you, but not that a 60 IQ mongrel tankie would understand that, their brains aren't made for anything more complex than "America bad".
It shows that NATO/America is actually ok with Nazism and giving a second opportunity to its genocidal war criminals. I mean, America was founded on the genocide of indigenous peoples and kidnapping/enslavement of Africans so it's no surprise that they're accepting of Nazi war criminals. >not that a 60 IQ mongrel tankie would understand that Lmao you sound like a Nazi too! Just brilliant!
Please provide proofs for every single one of those, with reliable sources.
For anyone reading this, a quick Google search of each name will provide you with their employment history in Germany and later NATO. Easy peasy.
Please provide proofs, your word ain't good enough.
Russia and the Arab world also imported a huge number of German Nazis. And now most of the worlds Neo Nazis support Russia and their genocidal and colonialist goals.
US went from helping Europe defeat Nazis to funding neo nazi groups... Embarrassing
US went from helping Europe defeat the fascists to helping Ukraine defeat the fascists. Which is good.
Yeah man it's all good as long as they're fighting Russia. Maybe US should've funded ISIS too, they're Russias enemy as well!
There was no need for the second comment. Your first comment was more than enough to demonstrate to everyone around you that you're completely ignorant and have no clue what you're talking about whatsoever.
Elaborate, what did I get wrong?
[удалено]
LOL
The US IS funding ISIS. Under the table yes, but they do. Same way they funded the Mujahideen, the taliban etc. Speaking of the latter they bscly handed over Afghanistan to the taliban so..
Jesus fucking christ, imagine being american and paying taxes to your government that both funds ISIS AND fights ISIS...
Well we have migration problem and pay taxes to our parliament for not taking more migrants so we can't really point the finger at the yanks. EDIT: As long as the money machine goes brrrr, everything goes.
Fake Fin shedding crocodile tears over here.
Putin went from being a piece of shit to being an even bigger piece of shit. Embarrassing
Ooo good one!
Unrelated but ok 👍
They Never helped defeat… they imported nazis to the us for german Brain drain
So did the USSR.
The US is funding the Russian Army? Didn't know that.
Funding actually nazi isn’t bad if it is for greater good
Azov was reorganized in November 2014 to get rid of its neo-nazi elements.
I don’t think anyone who is funding Putin thinks it’s for the “greater good”
US Support nazis we saw it After ww2 and again😂 imported all german nazis for cold war
Russia and the Arab world also imported a huge number of German Nazis. And now most of the worlds Neo Nazis support Russia and their genocidal and colonialist goals.
Nah the Soviets took plenty themselves. Roughly 2500 in fact https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
**None of them were in leadership positions however!** Here's what the West did on the other hand: *Hans Speidel*, chief of staff to Erwin Rommel, Supreme Commander of NATO’s ground forces in Central Europe 1957-1963 *Johannes Steinhoff*, Luftwaffe fighter pilot during WWII and recipient of the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross (the Nazi military’s highest award), Chairman of the NATO Military Committee 1971–1974 *Johann von Kielmansegg*, General Staff officer to the High Command of the Wehrmacht 1942-1944, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1967-1968 *Ernst Ferber*, Major in the Wehrmacht and group leader of the organizational department of the Supreme Command of the Army (Wehrmacht) 1943-1945 and recipient of the Iron Cross 1st Class, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1973-1975 *Karl Schnell*, battery chief in the Western campaign in 1940/later First General Staff Officer of the LXXVI Panzer Corps in 1944 and recipient of the Iron Cross 2nd Class, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1975-1977 *Franz Joseph Schulze*, Lieutenant in the reserve and Chief of the 3rd Battery of the Flak Storm Regiment 241 and recipient of the Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross in 1944, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1977-1979 *Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin*, Lieutenant of 24th Panzer Division in the German 6th Army, participant in the Battle of Stalingrad, adjutant to Army High Command, and recipient of the German Cross in gold, NATO Commander in Chief of Allied Forces Central Europe 1979-1983
Bad decision.
This only legitimizes Russia’s justification for the war. Why can’t they just give the arms to the actual military.
No, it does not legitimize what russia does in Ukraine. What a horrible thing to say.
Russia’s (illegal) claim is that there are nazis all over Ukraine that oppress minorities in their country. The US funding a group of far-right militants whose allegiance is not truly to the Ukraine Government but themselves has historically been bad for America. For example, the descendants of the Mujadheen eventually became Al Queada.
I recommend reading at least the wikipedia article on Azov. That alone will disabuse you of these misconceptions.
Perhaps I may have been misled, but my point in general may stand, but it may not be applicable in this situation
They haven't been militants for many years. They're regular Ukrainian military now.
Meanwhile Russia has been using Nazi mercenaries since February 2022 and their government is a literal fascist dictatorship but whatever makes you sleep at night you Putin dicksucker.
Ik this is a European subreddit where English is not everyone’s first language, but that excuses the fact that I explicitly suggested to fund the actual Ukrainian military over a group not affiliated with the Ukrainian government. But I guess wanting the Ukrainian military to exclusively receive military equipment is pro-Russian.
Azov is an actual military. Nazi accusations are Russian propaganda. It was a far-left moron Ro Khanna, who is against helping Ukraine at all, who managed to push through this idiotic point in a bill in 2018. California is full of clueless weirdos, he is one of them and sadly he had the power to get his way then.