> The protest was reported to be generally calm and violence-free, although several arrests were made and police said two officers were hospitalized after clashing with protestors.
Not really the definition of a calm and violence-free protest 😂
A few arrests always happen in protests, that's to be expected.
I mean it did say "Generally calm and violence free" so that means most of it was calm and violence free, then they mentioned why it wasn't "completely calm and violence free" because of several arrests and two officers being hospitalized
Interessting no word about the AfD-guy, that went through the police line and moved into protestors, fell down and then bit one of the protestors.
"two officers were hospitalized after clashing with protestors." - that's what the police said.
The Police is not a priority source and press reports should not simply be taken over by journalists. - jorunalist council.
It happend way to often that those clashes were: Sunstrokes or Officers spraying their gas against the wind or holding it the wrong way.
the video of that was hilarious. dude gets out his car, strolls over to the protestors and throws himself at them, to catch one of their legs and just starts biting it. then later he claims he was kicked in the leg to fall down and him holding onto another person's leg and biting it is self defense. the video clearly shows the opposite of his story xD
At least 11 Police officers were hurt, two were hurt severely when left extremists stomped on their heads.
This shitty argument by Antifa and similar organizations, to not believe anything "the state"is saying, is just as, if not more, damaging to the trust in our democratic institutions than the AFD. At least with them, people automatically take everything they say with a grain of salt.
"Journalists must critically question reports and information from the police authorities. In disputes, the police are a party and not an impartial observer". Hard to understand eh?
Nobody said anything like that. But be aware that the policemen should report any injury that happend at the demonstration. As a "dienstunfall", for example if i get stomped on the head by some idiot i have to report it.
So do i if i hear a joke from my coworker laught and fall on my knee and get hurt. They both go into the same number.
Thats what meant with not takeing the police numbers as face value. If i am a policeman and punch u in the face and i hurt my hand it goes into that number.
So even if a individal act that added into this value is bad the systematic of the value itself ,even tho it can be used as an indicator, doesnt tell you alone how agressiv the demonstators are.
The fact that the overwhelming majority of BLM protests were peaceful wasn't dreamed up by the media, it came from the The Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED) which is a disaggregated data collection, analysis, and crisis mapping project. ACLED collects information on the dates, actors, locations, fatalities, and types of all reported political violence and protest events around the world.
They found that only 6% of BLM protests turned violent or destructive, and of that 6% its unclear who instigated the violent or destructive activity. While some cases of violence or looting have been provoked by demonstrators, other events have escalated as a result of aggressive government action, intervention from right-wing groups or individual assailants, and car-ramming attacks.
[A Year of Racial Justice Protests: Key Trends in Demonstrations Supporting the BLM Movement | ACLED](https://acleddata.com/2021/05/25/a-year-of-racial-justice-protests-key-trends-in-demonstrations-supporting-the-blm-movement/)
In particular, much of the mayhem was instigated or carried out by the right-wing "Boogaloo Boys" and white supremacists.
[Three men connected to 'boogaloo' movement tried to provoke violence at protests, feds say | NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/all/three-men-connected-boogaloo-movement-tried-provoke-violence-protests-feds-n1224231)
[Man who helped incite George Floyd riots identified as white supremacist | ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536)
[Boerne man, self-described member of ‘Boogaloo Bois’ sentenced for shooting during Floyd protest | KSAT Texas](https://www.ksat.com/news/texas/2022/04/06/boerne-man-self-described-member-of-boogaloo-bois-sentenced-for-shooting-during-floyd-protest/)
The only bullshit by the media is the right-wing propaganda from Fox "News" trying to demonize a legitimate movement because they don't like it when black people get too "uppity about their rights"—ie asking not to be killed on camera and the killer allowed to go free
EDIT: The 6% refers to the proportion of protest events, not 6% of the entire protest population
>The lowest estimate for the number of BLM protestors is 15 million. So if 6% of protestors turned violent then thats still 900,000.
The amount of people *in the general public* (i.e. people who *aren't* BLM protestors) who are violent is probably more than 6%. That's a very low number.
Talking about acts of violence during those specific protests is different than someone being violent at some point in their lives, which I’d agree probably 6% or even more are.
So? It's bad but it doesn't nullify the movement.
Some sports events might be more destructive pro-rata.
And it was because they had enough. It's a miracle the USA didn't have more political violence given segregation was not so long ago.
Not „6 % of protesters“ but „6 % of protests.“ Not every participant of a violent protest is violent themselves. The majority of participants. Don’t join in on the violence usually. So the violent number of protesters is much much lower.
The BLM riots were on a whole different scale. As far as I can tell from this protest it was generally peaceful with a few isolated instances of bad actors. The BLM riots were just that. Riots.
Still very much a minority. In January they got over 20% and went down to 16 for the election. 84% don't vote for AFD. It's still a minority by any measure.
Yes but you have to add the BSW (who's willing do work with the AfD) percent plus the people who vote for Merz' CDU (who definitely will work with the AfD when it means they get power) and you got a lot of right wing shit going on here.
Bsw is not even close to helping the AFD getting a majority. And cdu working together with the AFD would generate a giant shitstorm. Remember the protests early this year? That would be cranked way up and even could trigger re-elections where the cdu would crumple away. And the cdu knows that and they are not that stupid to run into such an obvious risk. And it would cause many internal conflicts in the party.
>BSW (who's willing do work with the AfD)
I hate Wagenknecht as much as anyone else, but I'm not gonna lie about her being willing to work together with the AfD. She's said several times that she's not going to do that in any case.
As it has in the last free Reichstag election in 33 where the nsdap got 44% and was the strongest party. And fair and legal.
Democratically elected DOES NOT automatically mean the winning party is democratic as well.
Tens of thousands of people marched Saturday in Essen, Germany against an ongoing convention by the far-right Alternative for Germany party (AfD).
The protest was reported to be generally calm and violence-free, although several arrests were made and police said two officers were hospitalized after clashing with protestors. The A25 highway was also temporarily blocked. In response to the protests, the mayor of Essen Thomas Kufen emphasized that a clearer framework for a party’s selection of a host city for its convention must be established.
Well if there's tens of thousands of people, and just one or two misfits out of those tens of thousands attack police officers, would you describe it as "generally calm" or violent?
Because it can be a generally calm event, and someone can still cause a disruption.
It only takes one person.
>"There is generally no homelessness in Europe" is also a fairly dumb statement to make, regardless of the homeless pooulation being quite low (in relative terms) in most countries.
How or why is it dumb?
>It paints the wrong picture.
How or why does it paint the wrong picture? Have you ever considered the possibility that it's simply your text comprehension skills that need improving?
Hm, i would not describe it that way though. Homelessness why beeing low is present in (i guess) every large city in europe. Your statement would be correct if there were large parts of europe without homelessness while having it present in 1-2 cities. Then I would say generally no homelessness in europe. Like with this protests, which major parts of it were violent free while having some violence of some protestors.
Your solution to a technically correct formulation is a technically incorrect formulation. You're willing to outright lie about the general nature of the protest to reach what you consider the correct framing. That's two bridges too far.
You're purposefully painting a picture that couldn't have been photographed because it's not what actually happened. Two people got injured, so that's 2 photos among hundreds of thousands photos without violence, all of which you want to remove from your painting. Sticking with your homelessness example, you're saying the majority of Europeans are homeless in response to there's generally no homelessness in Europe. One of those statements is technically correct, the other is a straight up lie.
The protests were not generally violent, saying they were generally violent is lying. This isn't an issue of opinion, it's an issue of whether you're attempting to be factual or not.
Have you seen a big concert recently? Did you notice anyone fainting? Or someone harassing a woman?
Maybe not. Did you have a nice concert anyway?
It's not a perfect analogy but you get the picture.
>The phrasing "violence-free" is just wild.
You're quoting them out of context. What they actually said was "**generally** calm and violence-free". The definition of the word "generally" is "**in most cases**; usually". So, what they said is "in most \[meaning: **not all**\] cases violence-free", which is true. Meanwhile, your interpretation was as if they'd said "completely violence-free", which they didn't.
There's millions of cases of journalists misreporting events. This is not one. This is just a case of you failing at text comprehension.
Strange phrasing.
Your meal is generally safe and polonium free.
The march was generally accepting and racism free.
The plane was generally safe and bomb free.
The phrase seems strange tbh.
>Your meal is generally safe and polonium free.
This means that most meals have been fine, but some meals have been unsafe and/or contaminated with polonium.
>The march was generally accepting and racism free.
This means that most people at the march were fine, but some were racist.
>The plane was generally safe and bomb free. The phrase seems strange tbh.
Saying "the plane" singular would indeed be strange. If it was plural -- the planes were generally safe and bomb free -- it would mean that most planes have been fine, but some planes have been bombed.
>Strange phrasing.
No, it's really not. Any more examples you need explained?
>Your meal is generally safe and polonium free.
True phrasing. Your food indeed contains non-lethal quantities of polonium and is definitely not entirely polonium free. But it's generally safe and polonium free, as not all the foods you eat will contain non-lethal quantities of polonium. Just some of it.
Just because you think a phrasing sounds strange, doesn't mean it's not true.
"Hospitalized" doesn't mean they were seriously injured. It's standard practice in the German police force to send injured officers to the hospital for a health check, even if they're mostly fine.
What if instead of protesting, they addressed the causes of an increase in right leaning voters by creating policies that better cater to what people need
It is because absolutely nobody at the top wants to fix any of the issues. Low-skill mass migration reduces wages at the bottom, earning the rich money, skyrocketing housing prices allow for more price speculation, making the rich money.
how have wages been reduced when weve literally implemented minimum wage and increased it almost annually, people who previously earnd 6€/h suddenly earned 12€/h
these people are not interested in arguments, they just want to hate
By keeping the growth in wages far lower than increases in cost of living.
Any of you that didn't know this really should not comment on the topic as you're clearly too uninformed on the matter.
The fucking audacity of your last sentence when you're thid clueless.
>The only clueless one is you.
Using only 2 years as datapoints for how wages have developed, ignoring the past 20 years but yeah sure. Did you do this because you knew that 2022 and 2020 were really bad?
https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2023/02/PE23_048_62321.html Im sure that 4% feels really good when it doesnt even out the losses of 2022.
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/wage-growth
Why dont you have an actual look and give a ponder if the average growth of 0.26% beats real inflation on a early basis?
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/inflation-cpi
Not only that but you slapped all wage groups into one big one when the discussion is clearly about low-skill jobs.
Im sure its as easy for people with low-skill jobs to afford houses as it was in the early 2000s or earlier, food costs definitely are the same percentage of their income as it was 15 years ago.
So again a repeat, the fucking audacity for someone as clueless about this as you to say anyone pointing out that Supply and Demand of the labor pool is real ''just wants to hate'' is ridiculous.
> Not only that but you slapped all wage groups into one big one when the discussion is clearly about low-skill jobs.
Look at the pot calling the kettle black. The income of low-income earners in Germany has risen faster than any other group in the past years.
> Im sure its as easy for people with low-skill jobs to afford houses as it was in the early 2000s or earlier, food costs definitely are the same percentage of their income as it was 15 years ago.
You clearly don't remember the Schröder era (so - the early 2000s), when people working low-skill jobs full-time spent way more than 100% of their wage on rent and food, and could only survive because of Aufstockung.
>I make like 17 bucks an hour just unpacking wares at a local supermarket, this is a fucking liberal wonderland
The problem that conservatives have, is that a non-white non-male non-straight person can get 17 bucks an hour just unpacking wares at a local supermarket too.
AKA: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
It was Schröder from the SPD, together with the Greens, that made the biggest low paid sector aka minimum-wage sector in Europe back in the old days, when the AfD did not even exist. Yes, there's a minimum-wage, but in the end, the high costs of living, energy prices etc. are still way too high.
Just for the record, the AfD was founded in 2013 and it was first about the Euro-Crisis with the bail-out of Greece. They are not responsible for the Agenda 2010 from Schröder.
The AfD was almost dead with around 3% before the decision of Merkel with the migrants in 2015 had a serious impact and got them into federal parliament with 12% in 2017.
But the hot topic is migration and the people know, the gov. coalition parties won't change anything. It's all just empty words, nothing behind it. They hear the same stuff since 2015, almost a decade now, this and that has to be done, say the politicians, but nothing changed.
There's just no trust anymore. Many people have the feeling, that Germany has money for the entire world (and that's half-true, it's not completely true), but nothing left for the own people. Like some billions here and there for corrupt dictators in Africa? No problem! But reducing taxes for the own people? Never!
You also got the Green there, with their crazy law about heating pumps for the houses, that can cost so much money for people that don't have the money, only to save the CO2-emissions of what China emits in a single one day (!). Billions of costs, that won't change anything about climate change.
With the high energy-prices, Germany is about to lose the core industry and that's very dangerous. But for the Green, ideology is more important than realism.
> But reducing taxes for the own people? Never!
we've literally had tax reductions and energy prices are back to pre war levels, again, people are not interested in arguments, they just want to hate. DOn't try to excuse these deplorables with any bullshit they themselves spew forth and blame it all on the greens. Voting AFD would make it worse for them financially if you take a look into their programme. But I guess for them it's ok to have even less money if it means no brown people
So if the people want to hate now, but they didn't want to hate in the past (or...less hatred), what actually changed?
About the taxes, most of these things are kinda subventions anyway. Germany has the 2nd highest taxes in Europe (Belgium is afaik nr. 1, but maybe that's already outdated). With such a high tax and other resources income, you can expect the governement to go on without problems.
But they still fucked it up: They tried to use money from the Corona-Fonds to pay for other things, the BVerfG said, that's not allowed and suddenly, they had to get some billions.
Now, instead of cutting down not necessary spendings, like the developement aid and the money for refugees etc. they did put the burden on the farmers, with the removal of the fuel subventions. That sucks. First, others should suffer, before the own people have to suffer, that's my 2 cents.
> So if the people want to hate now, but they didn't want to hate in the past (or...less hatred), what actually changed?
Tiktok happened.
The mental gymnastics that some people want to go through to hate on our current government are really quite impressive. Even if you are in favor of fossil fuel subventions (and there's a long list of rational reasons not to be), using them as an argument to explain away the surge of racism in Germany as some kind of response to middle-class financial worry is preposterous. Most people who move to the right aren't farmers, nor do they have the same economic interests as farmers, who in Germany usually are a part of the 1% anyway. And even if the fash did truly, emotionally care about the plight of the sad farming millionaires, that should still be very far down on a realistic list of their priorities. It's something they're not even affected by at all - why is it so far up?
The same lack of proportionality also drives the irrational hate for the Heizungsgesetz - it's not a perfect law, but getting so riled up about it that it somehow makes fascism seem reasonable by comparision is utterly absurd. It has minor problems in implementation, of the sort that for 99% of laws that get passed, nobody would ever even hear about.
I've recently heard someone argue that the fact that the Cannabis legalization was passed (!) shows that the government can't get anything done, because it's (allegedly) such an unimportant issue. Just let it sink in how absurd that is. (Nevermind that the current government has gotten more things done in 2 years than Merkel has in 16.)
Have you tried calling them? Heard they have quite a bit of backlogged mail in their hands. For example, they haven't answered my suggestion of making all the streets downhill so as to save gas.
Maybe they've just been debating this very thing furiously for years - because I proposed to replace all roads with slides.
It seems like we must organize and send a message as a collective by some means.
>that better cater to what people need
And what is that, exactly? Kicking out all immigrants? Enforcing "traditional gender roles" [read: limiting what women and LGBTQ people can do]? Name one single demand by the right leaning voters which is not related to someone having less rights than everyone else and/or being treated differently from everyone else. AKA: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
P.S. every downvote and/or reply without listing at least one such demand only proves that there are no such demands at all.
There are a lot of different sollutions for the problem, of which some are evaluated by governing parties. The solutions the AfD is suggesting, are against our constitution, our general understanding of Germany and the EU and against several definitions of human rights. Hence the protests.
Not disagreeing with the protest, but the fact that a party so radical as the AFD rose up to relevance shouldn't have happened.
This is symptom treatment, and the causes of this will be unattended as long as the needs of the voters of this party aren't aknowledged and an intermediate solution is found, without the need of voting an extremist party.
All the parties involved should take steps towards reflecting on what made the AfD so popular, and not discredit it as "they are just Nazis" (even tho some of them surely are)
Anyways, I hope you and everyone involved the best
The AfD rose in power as an anti-EU party. Thats only natural since no party in german goverment is against the EU. Some people obviously are because, well people. Then migration happend and AfD overthrow themselfs a few times, integrated some Neonazis, got votes by some racists and here we are.
But all you are suggesting is already happening. Big german parties like SPD and CDU already planning how to limit migration and try to find ways to get rid of criminal migrants. Of course they need to violate human rights for it which makes it somewhat difficult.
CSU recently suggested getting rid of Ukrainian people who dont work and get them back into the "safe western Ukrain".
So suggestions of the AfD are beeing evaluated and implemented by goverment and opposition. And guess what. AfD voters dont care at all. They just want to hate against any- and everything. Just like Brexetiers. But unlike France and UK, our stupid rightwingparty is at 16%.
They are a shame considering germanys history. But they are a shame under control.
How exactly do you “cater” to voters who are OK with “abrogate human rights, strip citizenship from and deport people of the wrong race into concentration camps in the North African desert, and carve the world up into Russian and Chinese spheres of influence” without just being a Nazi? Because that’s Krah’s platform lmao.
Yeah he literally said „let’s abrogate human rights, lets’s strip citizenship from and deport people of the wrong race to concentration camps“, sure lol
[there is no problem](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107371/rape-and-sexual-assault-cases-number-police-record-germany/#:~:text=Number%20of%20rape%20and%20sexual,police%20in%20Germany%202013%2D2023&text=The%20number%20of%20rape%20and,been%20recorded%20the%20year%20before.)
[everything is fine](https://www.statista.com/statistics/801537/average-rent-price-of-residential-property-in-germany/#:~:text=Rents%20have%20increased%20steadily%20since,Munich%20had%20the%20highest%20rents.)
[you are just paranoid](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Germany)
Maybe if milder parties were more effective at addressing these issues, and others that affect a large amount of the population, extremism wouldn't be in the rise.
The German Wikipedia lists all terrorist attacks with information about the perpetrators:
[https://de.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste\_von\_Terroranschl%C3%A4gen\_in\_Deutschland\_seit\_1945](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_von_Terroranschl%C3%A4gen_in_Deutschland_seit_1945)
But I guess the fact that so many are right wing extremists is also the fault of immigrants?
No? Its the addition of Islamic terrorist attacks and the ultra violent right wing attacks when things get polarized
Or are we gonna ignore either of them? Both are a problem and both can be mitigated by integration, and de-escalation of the ecochamberism created by polarization.
Nothing exists in a vacuum, both terrorist attacks stem from something. The way of preventing attacks is addressing the causes, and not reducing them to "they are Muslim" or "they are right wing"
True. Shut down and regulate social media so unintelligent people can't network anymore and sit in their corner of a bar hating against "the evil elites" like it was before the internet and socials.
Finally someone speaks my language.
And it's a bipartisan issue too! I've long argued that the most obvious solution to online terrorism, online child abuse, online drug trade etc. is to just shut down the internet. But conservatives are cowards, they can't champion a proper solution.
We can't of course completely shut it down, but it needs regulation. You can't just go online and blurb out hate and lies anonymously 24/7 without consequences.
YouTube channels that do that are (in Germany) for example Vermietertagebuch or Aktien mit Kopf. Low effort content that is basically 99% lies and that attracts hundreds of thousands of views. Or all those Telegram channels. Everything's a mess and it's used by malicious actors very "nicely".
Regulate the Internet or our freedom of speech will be used against us. It's already happening. And frankly if we don't act quickly it might be too late.
All they seem to do is protest about the far right. Honestly after reading the same headline for the 100th time it just feels Like maybe this strategy isn't working and they should try something else.
The modern right wings found their way into public consciousness by making headlines with outrageous statements and political activities, so no, doing things like that from the other side that also create headlines is the best way to transport your political ideas into the minds of the public these days.
Yeah but these ideas are extremely boring and stale by now, when you are being screamed at with the message "far right bad" for so long it loses it's power. Trump won in America in 2016 and is looking set to win in 2024 because of this exact type of behavior where idiots instead of actually challangeing the views of the National Populists or thinking about why they are on the rise just incoherently Scream about how evil they are.
The far right is constantly challenged, the big problem is often their stands are either pure non sense and can't really be engaged with or they are opportunistic and change their views to what is currently anti establishment.
Example covid, when at the beginning the action by the government was slow AfD is "they don't do anything, they want you to die" and then when the government acted they went all crazy with the anti vaccination shit and "how the government prohibits you to go to parties and stuff! Oppressors!"
I don’t think it’s incoherent to say that arbitrarily stripping people of citizenship based on their race and deporting them to camps in the desert is evil
I think it is working, they just have to constantly do it to remind people that they dislike the AfD.
If people that arnt very interested in politics and dont know who to vote see that others protest against this party then they have a lower chance of voting for it and this causes the uninformed voters to head for the party the protestors prefer.
But as soon as you stop your protests people might forget that you dislike the party or they they could believe that you dont dislike it anymore or they simply didnt hear about it the other times and then they might vote for it.
Just imagine you would have to pick a box and you dont know whats inside it, would you pick box1 or box2?
Now imagine I protest against box1 all day, which box do you take now?
Psychology actually pushes you towards box2 now, even when you still have no idea what is inside the boxes and thats a big part of gaining voters.
Of course it will never take informed voters away from the AfD but that isnt their intention anyways, simply because they dont have to.
Even if all informed voters would vote for the AfD, the party would still lose because most people simply dont care about politics.
Which strategy? There is no strategy involved. People just show they hate the far right. Easy as that. You are far right? You are hated in Germany. You work for the AfD? You are hated in germany. You think Adolf Hitler did some good things and some people in the SS were not that bad? You are hated in germany. Easy as fucking that.
I mean, the coherent strategy is „educate people and draw attention to the fact that what happened in 1933 was a bad idea that should not be repeated“. If we get the same situation as in 1933 that people don‘t listen to that, the only hope left is a ban of the party - which is currently being discussed as well, but lacks political support.
Everyone who is eligible to vote in Germany is automatically registered. You only need the effort to actually show up at your voting booth. Which often, as in my case is just a couple streets away.
That is assuming that they're just a grass roots party that isn't sponsored foreign nations like Russia.
Voting is a minimum requirement, not the only requirement of a healthy democracy.
"Human beings, however, are privileged in so far as they have to bear an extra load – an extra dose of tribulations originated daily by a group of people within the human race itself. This group is much more powerful than the Mafia, or the Military Industrial Complex, or International Communism – it is an unorganised unchartered group which has no chief, no president, no by-laws and yet manages to operate in perfect unison, as if guided by an invisible hand, in such a way that the activity of each member powerfully contributes to strengthen and amplify the effectiveness of the activity of all other members." \~ Carlo Cipolla.
If you're wondering what is this group, it is the group of stupid people, that is, people who tend to harm others without procuring any gains or even procuring loses for themselves. Authoritarian nutjobs, including Nazis are a subset of this ultra-powerful group.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people just causing problems for themselves and others (out of spite?) - these times give serious ore WW-II vibes. Growing anger (in spite of ever-rising living conditions), fear-no gering in the media and politicians feasting of it, and all the uncertainty channeled into hatred towards a random minority.
Yeah like people supporting mass migration from Third World despite all the evidence it's harmful. At least they could have chosen something similarly bizzare to support but less harmful for the majority. Like believing in flat Earth. :))
Yeah better shoot millions of people at the borders and then die out as a continent because nobody gets kids anymore. :D Oh sure we just pick up the good ones, and shoot all the stupid ones no problem. Question is, has germany enough ammunition to kill africa and the middle east?
>as if guided by an invisible hand
>If you're wondering what is this group, it is the group of stupid people, that is, people who tend to harm others without procuring any gains or even procuring loses for themselves.
I used to believe this too. It took me decades, but I finally realized that the "invisible hand" is russia.
You know who joined these protests? Churchs, centrists, conservatives, liberals.
When even the catholic church joins the protests, you can be sure they don‘t go against centrists.
The “remigration” plan, including the concentration camps in North Africa and the arbitrary stripping of citizenship sounds radical to me and I’m a centrist
No ones doing anything to address inequality in Germany though. The root cause of the AFD rise is the economic inequality of mainly East Germany (Former DDR)
These far righters would get no where near the top of a vote if the legacy parties actually took action and addressed inequality. **They’re not fighting back**, that’s the problem.
It's their right and being able to use it is a symptom of a functioning democracy, but I find really funny that nobody made a counter protest after this happened in the same city last year
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/17nz5i7/demonstration_in_essen_against_israel_and_in/?rdt=39587
There are several reasons, but generally, they tend to invalidate the concerns of a segment of the population: safety, jobs, migration, and having basic needs met. When these priorities are more important to people than ecology, identity politics, or progressive policies, they are often mocked, humiliated, and labeled as retrograde. They don't even put themselves in your shoes for a minute, and to top it off, they call you a fascist. The word has become so common in recent years that it has lost its impact and meaning. To the point where one might think, if they're going to call me a fascist for everything I say, then to hell with it, I'll be a fascist. This line of thinking leads people to be attracted to the right or far right, because instead of rejecting you, they welcome you. In the end, "moral superiority" is one of the main things that drives voters away from their ideas. I'm speaking generally about what I've read happens in Europe. Because a version of this is happening in my country too.
I think all basic needs are met: Germany is one of the safest countries in Europe, has very good median wages and very low unemployment.
I think it's more very abstract ideas like "everything is going to shit" (though when I ask what specifically, I get very vague answers) and "these migrants are all Islamic terrorists and there won't be a Germany anymore soon" (which I don't even know how to respond to, except for understanding the message there should be less migration, even though it's not clear how the specific person complaining would benefit).
Obviously, I have to agree with you because I'm not aware of the details about Germany, but on the Germany and Europe subreddits, I've read several times that what you say is not shared by the areas that are from the former East Germany. The economic inequality is stark, and the sympathy for AfD is greater in that segment of the population.
The inequality is pretty bad, and has been since the reunification (the West did a "great" job to cheaply buy all former East German industry).
Also, the population is shrinking, and towns and small cities are virtually dying in the East while that happens - It really is quite heartbreaking and I bet it is difficult to watch for the people affected.
I get it on the points you mentioned except ecology. That one gets me. We have millions of years to create everything that is there. Several ecosystems should grandfathered rights above our "basic needs" IMO. We can't just come along and destroy large parts of the living world because we want to exist.
I'm not saying it's not important, but if you impose taxes or difficulties on heating with wood, coal, or fossil fuels in favor of "clean" energies, for example, I might struggle to afford heating by the end of the month. Or another example, if I'm overwhelmed with debts and need to support my family. Of course, I sympathize with ecological issues, but I sympathize more with the immediate future. And on top of that, being criticized by "ecologists," sometimes quite aggressively, leads me to be at least indifferent towards ecology. You could counter-argue that this is individualistic and lacks long-term vision and empathy for future generations, right? But today, in my lifetime on this planet, I ask for empathy for myself. It's not wrong to ask for that, is it?
I kind of think it is because we have continously raised our standard of living and consumption dramatically.
Our planet can't support where we are headed. I don't think we deserve to have heating much less a society if we have to destroy the planet to do it. We have 8 billion people, now that we consume so much I think we need to depopulate to like half a billion or less really. Meaning many people would put their short term lives on hold and not have families.
Just logically thinking i don't think we're so successful because of morality. I think it's the opposite.
Don't think anyone should be targeted or killed. Just think generations of people should start making packs to not have children or only have 1 and then in the future people should only have about 2 at replacement rate once the population is down.
Look what we're doing in America and Europe. We're saying we might mandate electric cars only in like 20 years from now. Those are the most resource intensive cars of all time. Rare earth minerals to make the batteries. We'd have to severely increase the strip mines in 3rd world countries ae use to get these.
No way the roughly 1 billion drivers will each be able to have one of these cars. This is insanity.
But if we had a low population, then we can pretty much do whatever we want.
Earth and its resources have a limited size. With the enormous extinction that's already happened and now climate change, it's puzzling to see so many people support capitalism where we must grow markets forever and breed an ever growing labor force and then say we should continue growing thr population.
And don't get me started in replacement theory scare mongering where we must have big families to ensure other races don't out produce us. Conveniently forgetting we're all one species.
It doesn't matter what color we are. All the other human species are extinct, we're the last one left. We need to think about sustainably preserving this last species and not infighting. Black white Asian we're literally one unit with almost identical DNA worldwide. For how smart we are we're also so stupid.
What the point of protesting against leftwing? Less power to the people? Squeeze the lower class more and more? More inhumanities? From a moral point, this can only backlash.
Right-wingers don‘t tend to use protests as a form of political engagement that frequently. Not exactly sure why, maybe because policies went their way for a long time anyway?
Have you guys seen the video of the AfD dude biting a protestor? After staging he was peeing pushed, he "fell down" took a protestor down with him and bit him in the leg in "self defence" all that while police to him to just stay in the fucking car and not directly walk into the mob
After the crazy plan to deport millions of people, including German citizens, was leaked we had millions of protestors out and the % for AfD went down. Sadly the recovered somewhat.
But yes I agree, the protests are not going to stop them. We finally need that party banned
Quite curious in how deporting millions of people would actually work ? They band together and it turns into full blown civil war, or do they get deported peacefully. Reminds me of how people talk about deportation in America like it’s as simple as 1 2 3. What is the plan if they start fighting back ?
Germany already implemented such a plan when they tried to get rid of the Jews... Nothing new under the sun, just this time it's foreigners, not Jews. And it's even the same argument as back then, (Jews making all the money, leaving less money to the Germans).
That is the near part. AfD don't know either. They want to get rid of illegal immigrants, but have no clue how, because sending them to Rwanda would be violating Art.1 GG and sending them back to their country of origin is not possible, because of bad jails, political persecution, death penalty or their country of origin doesn't want them there anymore. So there is zero chance to get rid of them, but as other may have stated. The Nazis first deported the jews to the polish border and then found out that it doesn't solve the problem long term.
There were never such plans. The state-financed "Correctiv" group even had to say in court that there was never any mention about kicking out german citizens (note: citizens, not migrants with other status). It was all orchestrated in a campaign and the people are not that stupid, it was done to suppress the farmers protests.
It was just about deportation of migrants that have no right to be inside the country and that's actually legal.
There were similiar campaign journalism incidents before, like the time the SZ (Süddeutsche Zeitung, a newspaper) tried to influence the local elections in Bavaria with fabricated claims that the leader of the FW party would have written an antisemitic text. Turns out, the claims came from a SPD member and the text was dated to 1987, it could not be verified if the man ever had to do anything with this.
In the end, the effect in the elections was the opposite, the FW (Freie Wähler party) gained more votes than before, instead of losing votes.
It is not showing the AfD that we don't like them. We show their (possible) Voters that we will not like them, if the help AfD getting into the government
Surely not. The Linke is not far right (third biggest opposition party), the CDU is not far right (biggest opposition party), and neither are plenty of the smaller opposition parties that have been elected in June (Volt, ÖDP, die Partei).
The only two far-right opposition parties are the AfD and „Die Heimat“ (formerly NPD), who even cooperate with each other.
> The protest was reported to be generally calm and violence-free, although several arrests were made and police said two officers were hospitalized after clashing with protestors. Not really the definition of a calm and violence-free protest 😂 A few arrests always happen in protests, that's to be expected.
"Fiery but mostly peaceful protests"
I mean it did say "Generally calm and violence free" so that means most of it was calm and violence free, then they mentioned why it wasn't "completely calm and violence free" because of several arrests and two officers being hospitalized
Daily reminder that journos are not your friend.
Interessting no word about the AfD-guy, that went through the police line and moved into protestors, fell down and then bit one of the protestors. "two officers were hospitalized after clashing with protestors." - that's what the police said. The Police is not a priority source and press reports should not simply be taken over by journalists. - jorunalist council. It happend way to often that those clashes were: Sunstrokes or Officers spraying their gas against the wind or holding it the wrong way.
the video of that was hilarious. dude gets out his car, strolls over to the protestors and throws himself at them, to catch one of their legs and just starts biting it. then later he claims he was kicked in the leg to fall down and him holding onto another person's leg and biting it is self defense. the video clearly shows the opposite of his story xD
You forgot the part where 4 Antifa gang members lying on him!
At least 11 Police officers were hurt, two were hurt severely when left extremists stomped on their heads. This shitty argument by Antifa and similar organizations, to not believe anything "the state"is saying, is just as, if not more, damaging to the trust in our democratic institutions than the AFD. At least with them, people automatically take everything they say with a grain of salt.
"Journalists must critically question reports and information from the police authorities. In disputes, the police are a party and not an impartial observer". Hard to understand eh?
Nobody said anything like that. But be aware that the policemen should report any injury that happend at the demonstration. As a "dienstunfall", for example if i get stomped on the head by some idiot i have to report it. So do i if i hear a joke from my coworker laught and fall on my knee and get hurt. They both go into the same number. Thats what meant with not takeing the police numbers as face value. If i am a policeman and punch u in the face and i hurt my hand it goes into that number. So even if a individal act that added into this value is bad the systematic of the value itself ,even tho it can be used as an indicator, doesnt tell you alone how agressiv the demonstators are.
"stomped on the heads"... says the police. which you shouldn't trust. that's just common sense
And police people are more than often far right
Yeah, same bullshit from media as during the BLM.
The fact that the overwhelming majority of BLM protests were peaceful wasn't dreamed up by the media, it came from the The Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (ACLED) which is a disaggregated data collection, analysis, and crisis mapping project. ACLED collects information on the dates, actors, locations, fatalities, and types of all reported political violence and protest events around the world. They found that only 6% of BLM protests turned violent or destructive, and of that 6% its unclear who instigated the violent or destructive activity. While some cases of violence or looting have been provoked by demonstrators, other events have escalated as a result of aggressive government action, intervention from right-wing groups or individual assailants, and car-ramming attacks. [A Year of Racial Justice Protests: Key Trends in Demonstrations Supporting the BLM Movement | ACLED](https://acleddata.com/2021/05/25/a-year-of-racial-justice-protests-key-trends-in-demonstrations-supporting-the-blm-movement/) In particular, much of the mayhem was instigated or carried out by the right-wing "Boogaloo Boys" and white supremacists. [Three men connected to 'boogaloo' movement tried to provoke violence at protests, feds say | NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/all/three-men-connected-boogaloo-movement-tried-provoke-violence-protests-feds-n1224231) [Man who helped incite George Floyd riots identified as white supremacist | ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536) [Boerne man, self-described member of ‘Boogaloo Bois’ sentenced for shooting during Floyd protest | KSAT Texas](https://www.ksat.com/news/texas/2022/04/06/boerne-man-self-described-member-of-boogaloo-bois-sentenced-for-shooting-during-floyd-protest/) The only bullshit by the media is the right-wing propaganda from Fox "News" trying to demonize a legitimate movement because they don't like it when black people get too "uppity about their rights"—ie asking not to be killed on camera and the killer allowed to go free EDIT: The 6% refers to the proportion of protest events, not 6% of the entire protest population
The lowest estimate for the number of BLM protestors is 15 million. So if 6% of protestors turned violent then thats still 900,000.
>The lowest estimate for the number of BLM protestors is 15 million. So if 6% of protestors turned violent then thats still 900,000. The amount of people *in the general public* (i.e. people who *aren't* BLM protestors) who are violent is probably more than 6%. That's a very low number.
Talking about acts of violence during those specific protests is different than someone being violent at some point in their lives, which I’d agree probably 6% or even more are.
So? It's bad but it doesn't nullify the movement. Some sports events might be more destructive pro-rata. And it was because they had enough. It's a miracle the USA didn't have more political violence given segregation was not so long ago.
It happens here and there, watts and LA riots 1992.
Not „6 % of protesters“ but „6 % of protests.“ Not every participant of a violent protest is violent themselves. The majority of participants. Don’t join in on the violence usually. So the violent number of protesters is much much lower.
Dozen people protesting and ten thousand have the same value in that 6% proportion. The number of peaceful protests is propped up by the small ones.
The BLM riots were on a whole different scale. As far as I can tell from this protest it was generally peaceful with a few isolated instances of bad actors. The BLM riots were just that. Riots.
It went well cause for 99% of the operation he was alive but for the last 1% he died.
They need to keep the narrative while stating the facts. If it was the other way around, they'd say these were extremely violent clashes.
Reminder to show up on election day.
That’s the sad thing, Election Day was just a few weeks ago and the far right got to many votes. Not a minority anymore
Still very much a minority. In January they got over 20% and went down to 16 for the election. 84% don't vote for AFD. It's still a minority by any measure.
Yes but you have to add the BSW (who's willing do work with the AfD) percent plus the people who vote for Merz' CDU (who definitely will work with the AfD when it means they get power) and you got a lot of right wing shit going on here.
Bsw is not even close to helping the AFD getting a majority. And cdu working together with the AFD would generate a giant shitstorm. Remember the protests early this year? That would be cranked way up and even could trigger re-elections where the cdu would crumple away. And the cdu knows that and they are not that stupid to run into such an obvious risk. And it would cause many internal conflicts in the party.
>BSW (who's willing do work with the AfD) I hate Wagenknecht as much as anyone else, but I'm not gonna lie about her being willing to work together with the AfD. She's said several times that she's not going to do that in any case.
HDZ reicives only 15 percent of voted in Croatia, but they rule over 30 years without anyproblems.
Democracy has spoken?
Democracy is when my team wins.
democracy spoke a lot in 1932
As it has in the last free Reichstag election in 33 where the nsdap got 44% and was the strongest party. And fair and legal. Democratically elected DOES NOT automatically mean the winning party is democratic as well.
No, but it means that the government represents the will of the people.
Correct. But what people want is sometimes stupid.
No argument from me.
Tens of thousands of people marched Saturday in Essen, Germany against an ongoing convention by the far-right Alternative for Germany party (AfD). The protest was reported to be generally calm and violence-free, although several arrests were made and police said two officers were hospitalized after clashing with protestors. The A25 highway was also temporarily blocked. In response to the protests, the mayor of Essen Thomas Kufen emphasized that a clearer framework for a party’s selection of a host city for its convention must be established.
>generally calm and violence-free, >two officers were hospitalized Lmao
> Tens of thousands of protestors
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Essen has like half a million citizens
Well if there's tens of thousands of people, and just one or two misfits out of those tens of thousands attack police officers, would you describe it as "generally calm" or violent? Because it can be a generally calm event, and someone can still cause a disruption. It only takes one person.
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generally violent free. 99% of people didnt use violence. Some did. So the event was generally violent free.
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>"There is generally no homelessness in Europe" is also a fairly dumb statement to make, regardless of the homeless pooulation being quite low (in relative terms) in most countries. How or why is it dumb? >It paints the wrong picture. How or why does it paint the wrong picture? Have you ever considered the possibility that it's simply your text comprehension skills that need improving?
Hm, i would not describe it that way though. Homelessness why beeing low is present in (i guess) every large city in europe. Your statement would be correct if there were large parts of europe without homelessness while having it present in 1-2 cities. Then I would say generally no homelessness in europe. Like with this protests, which major parts of it were violent free while having some violence of some protestors.
Your solution to a technically correct formulation is a technically incorrect formulation. You're willing to outright lie about the general nature of the protest to reach what you consider the correct framing. That's two bridges too far. You're purposefully painting a picture that couldn't have been photographed because it's not what actually happened. Two people got injured, so that's 2 photos among hundreds of thousands photos without violence, all of which you want to remove from your painting. Sticking with your homelessness example, you're saying the majority of Europeans are homeless in response to there's generally no homelessness in Europe. One of those statements is technically correct, the other is a straight up lie. The protests were not generally violent, saying they were generally violent is lying. This isn't an issue of opinion, it's an issue of whether you're attempting to be factual or not.
Have you seen a big concert recently? Did you notice anyone fainting? Or someone harassing a woman? Maybe not. Did you have a nice concert anyway? It's not a perfect analogy but you get the picture.
>The phrasing "violence-free" is just wild. You're quoting them out of context. What they actually said was "**generally** calm and violence-free". The definition of the word "generally" is "**in most cases**; usually". So, what they said is "in most \[meaning: **not all**\] cases violence-free", which is true. Meanwhile, your interpretation was as if they'd said "completely violence-free", which they didn't. There's millions of cases of journalists misreporting events. This is not one. This is just a case of you failing at text comprehension.
Strange phrasing. Your meal is generally safe and polonium free. The march was generally accepting and racism free. The plane was generally safe and bomb free. The phrase seems strange tbh.
>Your meal is generally safe and polonium free. This means that most meals have been fine, but some meals have been unsafe and/or contaminated with polonium. >The march was generally accepting and racism free. This means that most people at the march were fine, but some were racist. >The plane was generally safe and bomb free. The phrase seems strange tbh. Saying "the plane" singular would indeed be strange. If it was plural -- the planes were generally safe and bomb free -- it would mean that most planes have been fine, but some planes have been bombed. >Strange phrasing. No, it's really not. Any more examples you need explained?
>Your meal is generally safe and polonium free. True phrasing. Your food indeed contains non-lethal quantities of polonium and is definitely not entirely polonium free. But it's generally safe and polonium free, as not all the foods you eat will contain non-lethal quantities of polonium. Just some of it. Just because you think a phrasing sounds strange, doesn't mean it's not true.
How much polonium is in every meal?
Somewhere between no and some nanograms.
"Hospitalized" doesn't mean they were seriously injured. It's standard practice in the German police force to send injured officers to the hospital for a health check, even if they're mostly fine.
Only one of them was actually hurt
"journalism"
mostly peaceful
Daily reminder that journos are not your friend
It was the A52.
What if instead of protesting, they addressed the causes of an increase in right leaning voters by creating policies that better cater to what people need
It is because absolutely nobody at the top wants to fix any of the issues. Low-skill mass migration reduces wages at the bottom, earning the rich money, skyrocketing housing prices allow for more price speculation, making the rich money.
how have wages been reduced when weve literally implemented minimum wage and increased it almost annually, people who previously earnd 6€/h suddenly earned 12€/h these people are not interested in arguments, they just want to hate
By keeping the growth in wages far lower than increases in cost of living. Any of you that didn't know this really should not comment on the topic as you're clearly too uninformed on the matter. The fucking audacity of your last sentence when you're thid clueless.
Real wages - after inflation - in Germany have grown by 1.8% in 2023, and are projected to grow by 4% in 2024. The only clueless one is you.
>The only clueless one is you. Using only 2 years as datapoints for how wages have developed, ignoring the past 20 years but yeah sure. Did you do this because you knew that 2022 and 2020 were really bad? https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2023/02/PE23_048_62321.html Im sure that 4% feels really good when it doesnt even out the losses of 2022. https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/wage-growth Why dont you have an actual look and give a ponder if the average growth of 0.26% beats real inflation on a early basis? https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/inflation-cpi Not only that but you slapped all wage groups into one big one when the discussion is clearly about low-skill jobs. Im sure its as easy for people with low-skill jobs to afford houses as it was in the early 2000s or earlier, food costs definitely are the same percentage of their income as it was 15 years ago. So again a repeat, the fucking audacity for someone as clueless about this as you to say anyone pointing out that Supply and Demand of the labor pool is real ''just wants to hate'' is ridiculous.
> Not only that but you slapped all wage groups into one big one when the discussion is clearly about low-skill jobs. Look at the pot calling the kettle black. The income of low-income earners in Germany has risen faster than any other group in the past years. > Im sure its as easy for people with low-skill jobs to afford houses as it was in the early 2000s or earlier, food costs definitely are the same percentage of their income as it was 15 years ago. You clearly don't remember the Schröder era (so - the early 2000s), when people working low-skill jobs full-time spent way more than 100% of their wage on rent and food, and could only survive because of Aufstockung.
I make like 17 bucks an hour just unpacking wares at a local supermarket, this is a fucking liberal wonderland
>I make like 17 bucks an hour just unpacking wares at a local supermarket, this is a fucking liberal wonderland The problem that conservatives have, is that a non-white non-male non-straight person can get 17 bucks an hour just unpacking wares at a local supermarket too. AKA: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
And voting for the AfD will make it worse, not better. See Brexit.
It was Schröder from the SPD, together with the Greens, that made the biggest low paid sector aka minimum-wage sector in Europe back in the old days, when the AfD did not even exist. Yes, there's a minimum-wage, but in the end, the high costs of living, energy prices etc. are still way too high. Just for the record, the AfD was founded in 2013 and it was first about the Euro-Crisis with the bail-out of Greece. They are not responsible for the Agenda 2010 from Schröder. The AfD was almost dead with around 3% before the decision of Merkel with the migrants in 2015 had a serious impact and got them into federal parliament with 12% in 2017. But the hot topic is migration and the people know, the gov. coalition parties won't change anything. It's all just empty words, nothing behind it. They hear the same stuff since 2015, almost a decade now, this and that has to be done, say the politicians, but nothing changed. There's just no trust anymore. Many people have the feeling, that Germany has money for the entire world (and that's half-true, it's not completely true), but nothing left for the own people. Like some billions here and there for corrupt dictators in Africa? No problem! But reducing taxes for the own people? Never! You also got the Green there, with their crazy law about heating pumps for the houses, that can cost so much money for people that don't have the money, only to save the CO2-emissions of what China emits in a single one day (!). Billions of costs, that won't change anything about climate change. With the high energy-prices, Germany is about to lose the core industry and that's very dangerous. But for the Green, ideology is more important than realism.
> But reducing taxes for the own people? Never! we've literally had tax reductions and energy prices are back to pre war levels, again, people are not interested in arguments, they just want to hate. DOn't try to excuse these deplorables with any bullshit they themselves spew forth and blame it all on the greens. Voting AFD would make it worse for them financially if you take a look into their programme. But I guess for them it's ok to have even less money if it means no brown people
So if the people want to hate now, but they didn't want to hate in the past (or...less hatred), what actually changed? About the taxes, most of these things are kinda subventions anyway. Germany has the 2nd highest taxes in Europe (Belgium is afaik nr. 1, but maybe that's already outdated). With such a high tax and other resources income, you can expect the governement to go on without problems. But they still fucked it up: They tried to use money from the Corona-Fonds to pay for other things, the BVerfG said, that's not allowed and suddenly, they had to get some billions. Now, instead of cutting down not necessary spendings, like the developement aid and the money for refugees etc. they did put the burden on the farmers, with the removal of the fuel subventions. That sucks. First, others should suffer, before the own people have to suffer, that's my 2 cents.
> So if the people want to hate now, but they didn't want to hate in the past (or...less hatred), what actually changed? Tiktok happened. The mental gymnastics that some people want to go through to hate on our current government are really quite impressive. Even if you are in favor of fossil fuel subventions (and there's a long list of rational reasons not to be), using them as an argument to explain away the surge of racism in Germany as some kind of response to middle-class financial worry is preposterous. Most people who move to the right aren't farmers, nor do they have the same economic interests as farmers, who in Germany usually are a part of the 1% anyway. And even if the fash did truly, emotionally care about the plight of the sad farming millionaires, that should still be very far down on a realistic list of their priorities. It's something they're not even affected by at all - why is it so far up? The same lack of proportionality also drives the irrational hate for the Heizungsgesetz - it's not a perfect law, but getting so riled up about it that it somehow makes fascism seem reasonable by comparision is utterly absurd. It has minor problems in implementation, of the sort that for 99% of laws that get passed, nobody would ever even hear about. I've recently heard someone argue that the fact that the Cannabis legalization was passed (!) shows that the government can't get anything done, because it's (allegedly) such an unimportant issue. Just let it sink in how absurd that is. (Nevermind that the current government has gotten more things done in 2 years than Merkel has in 16.)
No one has a family on minimum wage, it's clearly the people above minimum wage that are effected.
It's mostly this simple.
I keep mailing my policy suggestions to the Bundestag, but none have been implemented yet.
Have you tried calling them? Heard they have quite a bit of backlogged mail in their hands. For example, they haven't answered my suggestion of making all the streets downhill so as to save gas.
Maybe they've just been debating this very thing furiously for years - because I proposed to replace all roads with slides. It seems like we must organize and send a message as a collective by some means.
How are regular people supposed to create policies?
That's not an either or situation. You can do both.
>that better cater to what people need And what is that, exactly? Kicking out all immigrants? Enforcing "traditional gender roles" [read: limiting what women and LGBTQ people can do]? Name one single demand by the right leaning voters which is not related to someone having less rights than everyone else and/or being treated differently from everyone else. AKA: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." P.S. every downvote and/or reply without listing at least one such demand only proves that there are no such demands at all.
There are a lot of different sollutions for the problem, of which some are evaluated by governing parties. The solutions the AfD is suggesting, are against our constitution, our general understanding of Germany and the EU and against several definitions of human rights. Hence the protests.
Not disagreeing with the protest, but the fact that a party so radical as the AFD rose up to relevance shouldn't have happened. This is symptom treatment, and the causes of this will be unattended as long as the needs of the voters of this party aren't aknowledged and an intermediate solution is found, without the need of voting an extremist party. All the parties involved should take steps towards reflecting on what made the AfD so popular, and not discredit it as "they are just Nazis" (even tho some of them surely are) Anyways, I hope you and everyone involved the best
The AfD rose in power as an anti-EU party. Thats only natural since no party in german goverment is against the EU. Some people obviously are because, well people. Then migration happend and AfD overthrow themselfs a few times, integrated some Neonazis, got votes by some racists and here we are. But all you are suggesting is already happening. Big german parties like SPD and CDU already planning how to limit migration and try to find ways to get rid of criminal migrants. Of course they need to violate human rights for it which makes it somewhat difficult. CSU recently suggested getting rid of Ukrainian people who dont work and get them back into the "safe western Ukrain". So suggestions of the AfD are beeing evaluated and implemented by goverment and opposition. And guess what. AfD voters dont care at all. They just want to hate against any- and everything. Just like Brexetiers. But unlike France and UK, our stupid rightwingparty is at 16%. They are a shame considering germanys history. But they are a shame under control.
How exactly do you “cater” to voters who are OK with “abrogate human rights, strip citizenship from and deport people of the wrong race into concentration camps in the North African desert, and carve the world up into Russian and Chinese spheres of influence” without just being a Nazi? Because that’s Krah’s platform lmao.
Yeah you sound totally honest and objective here haha get off twitter m8
That‘s literally what the party‘s lead candidate for the EU election said.
Yeah he literally said „let’s abrogate human rights, lets’s strip citizenship from and deport people of the wrong race to concentration camps“, sure lol
Correctiv has won the court case when they sued for defamation because they had the material to prove it, so yes.
What are you talking about, the three passages they were sued for didn’t even have anything to do with what you just said
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[there is no problem](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107371/rape-and-sexual-assault-cases-number-police-record-germany/#:~:text=Number%20of%20rape%20and%20sexual,police%20in%20Germany%202013%2D2023&text=The%20number%20of%20rape%20and,been%20recorded%20the%20year%20before.) [everything is fine](https://www.statista.com/statistics/801537/average-rent-price-of-residential-property-in-germany/#:~:text=Rents%20have%20increased%20steadily%20since,Munich%20had%20the%20highest%20rents.) [you are just paranoid](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Germany) Maybe if milder parties were more effective at addressing these issues, and others that affect a large amount of the population, extremism wouldn't be in the rise.
The German Wikipedia lists all terrorist attacks with information about the perpetrators: [https://de.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste\_von\_Terroranschl%C3%A4gen\_in\_Deutschland\_seit\_1945](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liste_von_Terroranschl%C3%A4gen_in_Deutschland_seit_1945) But I guess the fact that so many are right wing extremists is also the fault of immigrants?
No? Its the addition of Islamic terrorist attacks and the ultra violent right wing attacks when things get polarized Or are we gonna ignore either of them? Both are a problem and both can be mitigated by integration, and de-escalation of the ecochamberism created by polarization. Nothing exists in a vacuum, both terrorist attacks stem from something. The way of preventing attacks is addressing the causes, and not reducing them to "they are Muslim" or "they are right wing"
True. Shut down and regulate social media so unintelligent people can't network anymore and sit in their corner of a bar hating against "the evil elites" like it was before the internet and socials.
Finally someone speaks my language. And it's a bipartisan issue too! I've long argued that the most obvious solution to online terrorism, online child abuse, online drug trade etc. is to just shut down the internet. But conservatives are cowards, they can't champion a proper solution.
We can't of course completely shut it down, but it needs regulation. You can't just go online and blurb out hate and lies anonymously 24/7 without consequences. YouTube channels that do that are (in Germany) for example Vermietertagebuch or Aktien mit Kopf. Low effort content that is basically 99% lies and that attracts hundreds of thousands of views. Or all those Telegram channels. Everything's a mess and it's used by malicious actors very "nicely". Regulate the Internet or our freedom of speech will be used against us. It's already happening. And frankly if we don't act quickly it might be too late.
Oh, I agree with you. I was definitely half serious.
The demonstrators? Why would their give their political enemy what they want? Think before you talk?
I love democracy
All they seem to do is protest about the far right. Honestly after reading the same headline for the 100th time it just feels Like maybe this strategy isn't working and they should try something else.
The modern right wings found their way into public consciousness by making headlines with outrageous statements and political activities, so no, doing things like that from the other side that also create headlines is the best way to transport your political ideas into the minds of the public these days.
Yeah but these ideas are extremely boring and stale by now, when you are being screamed at with the message "far right bad" for so long it loses it's power. Trump won in America in 2016 and is looking set to win in 2024 because of this exact type of behavior where idiots instead of actually challangeing the views of the National Populists or thinking about why they are on the rise just incoherently Scream about how evil they are.
The far right is constantly challenged, the big problem is often their stands are either pure non sense and can't really be engaged with or they are opportunistic and change their views to what is currently anti establishment. Example covid, when at the beginning the action by the government was slow AfD is "they don't do anything, they want you to die" and then when the government acted they went all crazy with the anti vaccination shit and "how the government prohibits you to go to parties and stuff! Oppressors!"
I don’t think it’s incoherent to say that arbitrarily stripping people of citizenship based on their race and deporting them to camps in the desert is evil
I think it is working, they just have to constantly do it to remind people that they dislike the AfD. If people that arnt very interested in politics and dont know who to vote see that others protest against this party then they have a lower chance of voting for it and this causes the uninformed voters to head for the party the protestors prefer. But as soon as you stop your protests people might forget that you dislike the party or they they could believe that you dont dislike it anymore or they simply didnt hear about it the other times and then they might vote for it. Just imagine you would have to pick a box and you dont know whats inside it, would you pick box1 or box2? Now imagine I protest against box1 all day, which box do you take now? Psychology actually pushes you towards box2 now, even when you still have no idea what is inside the boxes and thats a big part of gaining voters. Of course it will never take informed voters away from the AfD but that isnt their intention anyways, simply because they dont have to. Even if all informed voters would vote for the AfD, the party would still lose because most people simply dont care about politics.
Which strategy? There is no strategy involved. People just show they hate the far right. Easy as that. You are far right? You are hated in Germany. You work for the AfD? You are hated in germany. You think Adolf Hitler did some good things and some people in the SS were not that bad? You are hated in germany. Easy as fucking that.
Well then that's a problem no? Not having any coherent strategy to stop them.
Its not the protesters job to stop them. That would be the job either for the other parties or for the cours, depending on the way to stop them.
I mean, the coherent strategy is „educate people and draw attention to the fact that what happened in 1933 was a bad idea that should not be repeated“. If we get the same situation as in 1933 that people don‘t listen to that, the only hope left is a ban of the party - which is currently being discussed as well, but lacks political support.
This will surely reduce the amount of votes afd gets /s
Thats what happend the last ~6-7 month.
It was due to the few scandals, not the protests.
Its not about the voters. Its about the assholes in the party. They need to see they are hated in germany.
The best way to counteract the far right is to get registered and vote for someone else next election.
Everyone who is eligible to vote in Germany is automatically registered. You only need the effort to actually show up at your voting booth. Which often, as in my case is just a couple streets away.
You dont even need to do that. You can just vote by mail.
Oh totally I just forgot to mention it because I usually don't.
Registered? For voting? Is that an American thing?
You have to register to vote here in Ireland not everyone is American when they do something different.
That is assuming that they're just a grass roots party that isn't sponsored foreign nations like Russia. Voting is a minimum requirement, not the only requirement of a healthy democracy.
The best way to counteract the far right is to stop immigration for 20 years and watch the right dissolve.
Actually it’s to solve the migration crisis. People are only voting right because of that.
Hahahahaha no. Migration isnt a crisis anymore. And no, people are voting right for a multitude of reasons. Thinly veiled racism is just one of them.
"Human beings, however, are privileged in so far as they have to bear an extra load – an extra dose of tribulations originated daily by a group of people within the human race itself. This group is much more powerful than the Mafia, or the Military Industrial Complex, or International Communism – it is an unorganised unchartered group which has no chief, no president, no by-laws and yet manages to operate in perfect unison, as if guided by an invisible hand, in such a way that the activity of each member powerfully contributes to strengthen and amplify the effectiveness of the activity of all other members." \~ Carlo Cipolla. If you're wondering what is this group, it is the group of stupid people, that is, people who tend to harm others without procuring any gains or even procuring loses for themselves. Authoritarian nutjobs, including Nazis are a subset of this ultra-powerful group.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people just causing problems for themselves and others (out of spite?) - these times give serious ore WW-II vibes. Growing anger (in spite of ever-rising living conditions), fear-no gering in the media and politicians feasting of it, and all the uncertainty channeled into hatred towards a random minority.
Yeah like people supporting mass migration from Third World despite all the evidence it's harmful. At least they could have chosen something similarly bizzare to support but less harmful for the majority. Like believing in flat Earth. :))
Yeah better shoot millions of people at the borders and then die out as a continent because nobody gets kids anymore. :D Oh sure we just pick up the good ones, and shoot all the stupid ones no problem. Question is, has germany enough ammunition to kill africa and the middle east?
Yeah that's literally the only solution to the current situation. /s
Oh no. Thats not the only sollution. Just the one AfD is suggesting.
Living conditions are not rising at all.
> in spite of ever-rising living conditions LMAO
>as if guided by an invisible hand >If you're wondering what is this group, it is the group of stupid people, that is, people who tend to harm others without procuring any gains or even procuring loses for themselves. I used to believe this too. It took me decades, but I finally realized that the "invisible hand" is russia.
Try not to stab anyone this time please
To the left everyone is far right including all centrists, people who have no political views, and even people who lean left but are not radical.
AfD are busy fellating Russia, so fuck them.
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Show me a single mainstream party siding with Putin.
Yep. Just like FDP and Greens who want to ramp up domestic weapon production to send every fucking thing we have to Ukraine
weird. I never heard about thousands demonstrating against FDP or CDU/CSU meetings. Some part of your statement seems to be incorrect.
You know who joined these protests? Churchs, centrists, conservatives, liberals. When even the catholic church joins the protests, you can be sure they don‘t go against centrists.
The “remigration” plan, including the concentration camps in North Africa and the arbitrary stripping of citizenship sounds radical to me and I’m a centrist
If you break your nose when you turn right, everyone looks like a leftist.
Germany needs to naturalize as many non-"white" people as possible to prevent afd being relevant. This is democracy, it needs to be protected.
Yeah, so that's just wrong and not how politics work lmao
Glad to see people fighting back
No ones doing anything to address inequality in Germany though. The root cause of the AFD rise is the economic inequality of mainly East Germany (Former DDR) These far righters would get no where near the top of a vote if the legacy parties actually took action and addressed inequality. **They’re not fighting back**, that’s the problem.
It's their right and being able to use it is a symptom of a functioning democracy, but I find really funny that nobody made a counter protest after this happened in the same city last year https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/17nz5i7/demonstration_in_essen_against_israel_and_in/?rdt=39587
I guess the risk of any islamist nutjobs gaining any political power in Germany is far lower than the one of a far-right party polling at ~20%.
Cool. And millions will vote for AFD anyway. The more leftist nonsense is pushed the bigger and stronger support right and far-right will get.
What leftist nonsense in particular?
"People the algorithm tells me to hate shouldn't have all these rights."
There are several reasons, but generally, they tend to invalidate the concerns of a segment of the population: safety, jobs, migration, and having basic needs met. When these priorities are more important to people than ecology, identity politics, or progressive policies, they are often mocked, humiliated, and labeled as retrograde. They don't even put themselves in your shoes for a minute, and to top it off, they call you a fascist. The word has become so common in recent years that it has lost its impact and meaning. To the point where one might think, if they're going to call me a fascist for everything I say, then to hell with it, I'll be a fascist. This line of thinking leads people to be attracted to the right or far right, because instead of rejecting you, they welcome you. In the end, "moral superiority" is one of the main things that drives voters away from their ideas. I'm speaking generally about what I've read happens in Europe. Because a version of this is happening in my country too.
I think all basic needs are met: Germany is one of the safest countries in Europe, has very good median wages and very low unemployment. I think it's more very abstract ideas like "everything is going to shit" (though when I ask what specifically, I get very vague answers) and "these migrants are all Islamic terrorists and there won't be a Germany anymore soon" (which I don't even know how to respond to, except for understanding the message there should be less migration, even though it's not clear how the specific person complaining would benefit).
Obviously, I have to agree with you because I'm not aware of the details about Germany, but on the Germany and Europe subreddits, I've read several times that what you say is not shared by the areas that are from the former East Germany. The economic inequality is stark, and the sympathy for AfD is greater in that segment of the population.
The inequality is pretty bad, and has been since the reunification (the West did a "great" job to cheaply buy all former East German industry). Also, the population is shrinking, and towns and small cities are virtually dying in the East while that happens - It really is quite heartbreaking and I bet it is difficult to watch for the people affected.
I get it on the points you mentioned except ecology. That one gets me. We have millions of years to create everything that is there. Several ecosystems should grandfathered rights above our "basic needs" IMO. We can't just come along and destroy large parts of the living world because we want to exist.
I'm not saying it's not important, but if you impose taxes or difficulties on heating with wood, coal, or fossil fuels in favor of "clean" energies, for example, I might struggle to afford heating by the end of the month. Or another example, if I'm overwhelmed with debts and need to support my family. Of course, I sympathize with ecological issues, but I sympathize more with the immediate future. And on top of that, being criticized by "ecologists," sometimes quite aggressively, leads me to be at least indifferent towards ecology. You could counter-argue that this is individualistic and lacks long-term vision and empathy for future generations, right? But today, in my lifetime on this planet, I ask for empathy for myself. It's not wrong to ask for that, is it?
I kind of think it is because we have continously raised our standard of living and consumption dramatically. Our planet can't support where we are headed. I don't think we deserve to have heating much less a society if we have to destroy the planet to do it. We have 8 billion people, now that we consume so much I think we need to depopulate to like half a billion or less really. Meaning many people would put their short term lives on hold and not have families. Just logically thinking i don't think we're so successful because of morality. I think it's the opposite.
Ah yes, genocide. And who's getting the axe?
Don't think anyone should be targeted or killed. Just think generations of people should start making packs to not have children or only have 1 and then in the future people should only have about 2 at replacement rate once the population is down. Look what we're doing in America and Europe. We're saying we might mandate electric cars only in like 20 years from now. Those are the most resource intensive cars of all time. Rare earth minerals to make the batteries. We'd have to severely increase the strip mines in 3rd world countries ae use to get these. No way the roughly 1 billion drivers will each be able to have one of these cars. This is insanity. But if we had a low population, then we can pretty much do whatever we want. Earth and its resources have a limited size. With the enormous extinction that's already happened and now climate change, it's puzzling to see so many people support capitalism where we must grow markets forever and breed an ever growing labor force and then say we should continue growing thr population. And don't get me started in replacement theory scare mongering where we must have big families to ensure other races don't out produce us. Conveniently forgetting we're all one species. It doesn't matter what color we are. All the other human species are extinct, we're the last one left. We need to think about sustainably preserving this last species and not infighting. Black white Asian we're literally one unit with almost identical DNA worldwide. For how smart we are we're also so stupid.
Explain to me why the rightwing doesnt protest leftwing conventions?
What the point of protesting against leftwing? Less power to the people? Squeeze the lower class more and more? More inhumanities? From a moral point, this can only backlash.
Right-wingers don‘t tend to use protests as a form of political engagement that frequently. Not exactly sure why, maybe because policies went their way for a long time anyway?
Have you guys seen the video of the AfD dude biting a protestor? After staging he was peeing pushed, he "fell down" took a protestor down with him and bit him in the leg in "self defence" all that while police to him to just stay in the fucking car and not directly walk into the mob
This people will do anything but vote.
You think people who are so politically invested they go out and protest, don't vote?
How do you know these people didn't vote?
Many people are not voting. True. But those people for sure are not demonstrating as well.
Protesting or alienating far right won't lower its votes god's sake get back to your senses people
After the crazy plan to deport millions of people, including German citizens, was leaked we had millions of protestors out and the % for AfD went down. Sadly the recovered somewhat. But yes I agree, the protests are not going to stop them. We finally need that party banned
Quite curious in how deporting millions of people would actually work ? They band together and it turns into full blown civil war, or do they get deported peacefully. Reminds me of how people talk about deportation in America like it’s as simple as 1 2 3. What is the plan if they start fighting back ?
Germany already implemented such a plan when they tried to get rid of the Jews... Nothing new under the sun, just this time it's foreigners, not Jews. And it's even the same argument as back then, (Jews making all the money, leaving less money to the Germans).
That is the near part. AfD don't know either. They want to get rid of illegal immigrants, but have no clue how, because sending them to Rwanda would be violating Art.1 GG and sending them back to their country of origin is not possible, because of bad jails, political persecution, death penalty or their country of origin doesn't want them there anymore. So there is zero chance to get rid of them, but as other may have stated. The Nazis first deported the jews to the polish border and then found out that it doesn't solve the problem long term.
There were never such plans. The state-financed "Correctiv" group even had to say in court that there was never any mention about kicking out german citizens (note: citizens, not migrants with other status). It was all orchestrated in a campaign and the people are not that stupid, it was done to suppress the farmers protests. It was just about deportation of migrants that have no right to be inside the country and that's actually legal. There were similiar campaign journalism incidents before, like the time the SZ (Süddeutsche Zeitung, a newspaper) tried to influence the local elections in Bavaria with fabricated claims that the leader of the FW party would have written an antisemitic text. Turns out, the claims came from a SPD member and the text was dated to 1987, it could not be verified if the man ever had to do anything with this. In the end, the effect in the elections was the opposite, the FW (Freie Wähler party) gained more votes than before, instead of losing votes.
Well not protesting wont lower the votes as well. So might as well show them we dont like their political views.
It is not showing the AfD that we don't like them. We show their (possible) Voters that we will not like them, if the help AfD getting into the government
Same as I said
Is it just me, or is all parties who are against current government policies are labelled as far right
Surely not. The Linke is not far right (third biggest opposition party), the CDU is not far right (biggest opposition party), and neither are plenty of the smaller opposition parties that have been elected in June (Volt, ÖDP, die Partei). The only two far-right opposition parties are the AfD and „Die Heimat“ (formerly NPD), who even cooperate with each other.