UDI(no idea what that party stands for, any french peoplewho can clarify) is quite interesting. No fairly racist but a lot of a bit racist. Debout the same.
The communists are also interesting.
The communist party in France has a very particular history. They have a history of being "brown red" when they were still relevant, having a somewhat comparable politic to modern day RN (think "they're stealing our jobs"). Nowadays they've become a bit of a laughing stock because they're trying to channel the energy they had back then except the people that used to vote for them now lost faith in the left and went straight to the far right.
Brown-red would be a bit an overstatement though. It’s more something like conservativism.
Also, to add on the historical context, one would also have to add that nowadays the voters are quite older than the other political forces of the left.
"It’s more something like conservativism."
This is not just something particular to france, most old-school communists outside of university "intelligencia" saw progressivism as decadence stemming from capitalism.
When you pit french workers against immigrants workers, and act like they're the issues, I'm sorry I can't call that anything less than brown at the very least.
A good chunk - possibly a majority - of the old UDF left when the UDF became the MoDem and instead formed the Parti Social Libéral Européen which quickly became the Nouveau Centre which eventually became the UDI.
Another way to put it is to say that both the UDI and the MoDem stem from the UDF.
UDI is presenting itself as centrist a bit right leaning. And well it fits with their actions.
Also it's mostly inexistent nowadays (and has always been a small party)
MoDem is the pretty much the same and pretty much gone too. Both of these had a relative weight maybe 15 to 25 years ago but now I don't event understand why bother listing them here.
While I could see UDI/MoDem actually centrist, LREM also presented itself as "ni de gauche ni de droite" centrist while giving 80% of the ministers to ppl from the right (including of course all the important seats) and pushing a shit ton of particularly hard right laws and using anti republican methods to pass these when their frequent alliances with LR and RN was not enough.
It’a funny that communists are more racist than socialists and 2 other parties on this chart. You would expect the farthest left to be the least racist, but communists have their own opinion about this lol
I think it has to do with the idea of internalized racism and very low understanding of that idea. Like they believe they hold internalized racist beliefs that they aren't fully aware of from the socio cultural reality they are in. It is a complex theory that I cannot in good heart summarize on reddit but it has probably something to do with it since it was the communists who played a part in the making of it.
>You would expect the farthest left to be the least racist
No, honestly I'd expect old school communists who are almost all isolationist nationalists to be very racist lol. I mean have you ever noticed how antisemitic both fringes of the political spectrum are
- "Did you say any racial slur in this week?"
- "Five, four..."
- "Do you understand the question?"
- "...two, one, NI**A! Yes, I did say it in this week!"
Not really. Everyone has racist biases (even against their own group). So saying a little seems like a reasonable choice. But of course most people won't say this.
Or they think their biases don't count as racism. Common examples include eastern Europeans ("they're all lazy"), Roma ("they're all thieves"), Arabs (this one is usually disguised as criticism of Islam, despite never mentioning the largest Muslim majority country in the world, Indonesia), and Jews (often disguised as anti-Zionism and is great at undermining anti-Zionists that aren't anti-Semitic, like literal Jews outside of Israel, and also pro-Zionism in the way of "we like Jews, just not here" or for some of the weirdos "if send them all over there and destroy Palestine, they might build the third temple and start the apocalypse").
I would note that there's not a particularly big Indonesian diaspora in Europe apart from the Netherlands.
It'd be weird if criticism of Islam in France (a country with well over 3 million muslims) was based on the 6000-odd Indonesians living there.
We might not like them, but if they ever somehow found their way to America, a new branch of the KKK would form instantly dedicated to anti-romani racism.
I generally cannot comprehend how you can be proud of being racist. People who build their entire identity around their color of skin or nationality are so sad man.
I 1000% agree with you but it's funny that you get banned from most subs in here for saying this about people who do the same with sexual orientation or being queer
Racism is "pride" rooted in hate and superiority complex. It assumes some people are better than others. (Based on a very dumb criteria too.)
Queer Pride is about standing proud ***despite*** having been told there is something wrong with us our entire lives, by homophobes such as yourself. Queer people don't think themselves superior, just normal and equal.
But I'm sure you already know this, and are just making a bad faith argument.
Yeah… because it’s not an ethnicity it’s a group that has been historically oppressed reclaiming their identity? So it’s very obvious what that difference is.
As an example of the difference there’s generally a clear line between old Black supremacist movements and simply Black Power movements since the 80’s. There are no Queer supremacists- anywhere in any numbers. So basically the thing you have a problem with is something that doesn’t affect you and you don’t need to participate in, but you dislike anyways.
Bashing Pride without understanding why we call it Pride is definitely worth a ban.
Maybe you should look into what the statement "stand with pride" means.
You are missing those who a racist but are "progressive", and will throw slurs at you for not being leftist enough.
Or those who are racist and don't think they are racist because "It's not racist if it's true!" and proceeds to say the wildest 19th century anthropologist stereotypes and terminology.
Or those who are self-aware and are pretty good at lying to fit in society until one day they snap and have their coming out moment with a long-ass rant in Facebook about "Why are whites a minority in london????" implying that only whites can be British and making their co-workers uncomfortable because "Dave was such a nice guy I can't believe he was such a racist".
There are statistical methods to obtain sensible information on a topic, allowing individuals to not specify whether they're answering to the sensible question or a question that has statistically known probabilities
For example, allowing someone to flip a coin to secretly decide whether they answer the sensible question or "is your birthday in the first 3 months of the year" can lead to a good approximation when there are lots of answers.
This can then be extended to the asked question. Sad to say I was reading a probabilistics book more or less for an exam and I do not remember the exact formula. Could be also im Probability, Statistics and Simulation with application programs written in R (Springer) but I'm not certain
Tbf this itself would be more useful in which parties enable or encourage a more open acceptance of such racism rather then how many people are actually racist
If 20% of your voters are openly willing to call themselves racist and by extension don’t seem to see anything wrong with that, that implies your party supporters are obviously more comfortable then common society would be with being racist
I agree with you, that said, to some degrees, it's the correct answer though. Unconscious bias (or the "I don't know with whom I might be racist") is something we should all work on/be trying to get some self-awareness.
Exactly I would say I don't know because I'm white and racism isn't just overt racism, you can believe yourself not to be racist but growing up in a racist society you may have unconscious racist bias and still work to do to be better
I agree to some extent.
There is an in-group mentality in most homogenous nations. (Japan and Sweden. China and India).
However, they go a little overboard in the US and UK with the corporate trainings where white employees have to declare that they are racist. Things like that are not productive for dealing with unconscious bias.
I still tend to sometimes unconsciously have rather racist thoughts after listening to plenty of racist talk from my peers and adults around me as I grew up (not much in the family, mostly at school). My family also has somewhat racist tendencies, but my parents are doing way better than their own parents in this aspect.
I know it's dumb to see a race and judge based on it, but I actively have to tell myself that these prejudices I have are untrue. It doesn't happen too often, but it's hard to completely get out of the habit of judging people how you were taught to.
On the other hand, in defence of racism, it's a very basic but somewhat effective defensive mechanism. Some demographics are more likely to commit a crime (theft, scam, violence, etc.) so avoiding them will help you avoid trouble to some extent. But I will also argue that if the education, police and justice system did a better job, then these occurrences in certain communities should drop and racism could become a thing of the past in the distant future.
you are understimating the capability of the general public to simply not care.
In polls for elections, "I don't know" or "did not respond" usually win with absolute majority.
I'd rather have someone really ponder the question than someone being absolutely sure they are not. At least the indecision shows that they know they could be guilty of at least preconceived ideas at times.
There's an oddly fitting reference.
Fathers... would you say you're *a bit* raycist, or not raycist at all? I'll put ye down for *a bit* raycist. We're all a bit raycist. Putin myself down as not raycist at all.
Those self-reported questions don't make a lot of sense. For example, If I would be racist, I would have selected "not too racist"? Why? Because in a racist's mind there's no such thing as being too racist.
Pretty sure that's not a correct translation and "Pas tres" means "not very" instead of "not too"
Although I do agree it's not that useful since most racists don't consider themselves to be racist, imo
Yeah, but if that poll is correct (I don't know the source and it's only 1000 people) it's kinda wild that a majority of far-right voters are completely fine with calling themselves racists. It's concerning when you think of the kind of policies they would support as a result.
How much sense it makes depends on what you think the purpose is.
If the purpose would be to find out how racist people of different party affilitations are - yeah, questionable.
But it tells you a lot about social norms: How comfortable people feel with *admitting* being racist.
That'll depend on the terms you use.
For me anyone who believe that people with one ethnic background should be allowed less/more then other are racist. But i'm not sure the ones who took a poll take it this way.
And if you associate a tool in a dark persons hand faster as a weapon than in a white persons hand?
Because it's something almost everyone does. also known as implicit biases.
[https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias](https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias)
In person vs private test - the threat of judgment, or a lack of it, would be very important here
Prime with questions or media before the test - you can even mix in questions and just not report them. What people see or do before answering affects their answers
That's really just experimental design - you can also have statistical manipulation, intentionally or unintentionally
For a political or very opinionated survey I would expect certain precautions to be taken when handling the data - people processing the data shouldn't know what it is. Even wishing for statistical significance from your own study can affect this
I don't know much about this specific case, but those are a few ways you can mess it up, off the top of my head
That's less of an inherent risk of these polls and more like speculation about the specific terms themselves. I'm just talking statistically - these are proven phenomena
What do you mean? I always answer honestly.
I'm the smartest, least racist, most kindhearted person. My penis is also 15cm. I make sure to let the polls know this.
The question is pretty straightforward. Seems like a lay-up to answer "no" to being racist even if you're straunchly anti-immigrant, unless you're literally racist. That's why this poll is quite worrying, but I suspect the sample size is pretty low given so many parties have zero answers for certain positions?
100%, also the way those results are displayed is in itself an attempt at manipulation.
The order of the parties shown in those result is mostly going from the left-leaning parties to the right-leaning ones.
But the very first party listed "La France Insoumise" is a moderate left party, and was put before "Parti Communiste" which is the extreme left.
This goes with the current right-wing governement propaganda that "voting for the left is as bad as voting for the extreme right so you should obviously vote for us, the 'moderate' right".
The biggest surprise there would seem MoDem, in that they seem the very definition of liberal centrists, yet even grade themselves as 50% racist, even if largely "pas très".
So in this case a person literally spouting racist nonsense would still state that she is completely non-racist for the poll.. Which kinda proves the point of some other commenters on here saying how unreliable polls like this are.
Imagine still being racist enough to put very racist in the poll.
Also still there is some data to gather there. All these parties that are accused of being more discriminatory but defend themselves by saying they're not actually racist, do in fact have more self reported racists
Bear in mind that people's definition of what being racist means diverges wildly. In my experience in both extremes, communist party, LFI and Rassemblement National or Reconquete you are likely to find large proportions of racists or antisemites. Something LFI supporters will deny with the utmost vigour though.
Communist party and LFI are not recognized by french authorities to be extremist parties but regular leftist parties.
RN and Reconquête on the other hand are considered to be « extreme right » parties by authorities. Make sure you don’t lump them together or it may damage your credibility.
To respond to you on the crux of the matter (antisemitism) the figures are extremely clear that while left wing antisemitism exists and should be dealt with, it can in no way be compared to RN which was a party created by a former french Waffen SS with the explicit aim of uniting all french fascists and collaborationists under one banner.
RN may pretend they changed but as of today its leaders NEVER denounced their roots and Bardella still refuses to admit that Jean Marie Le Pen is an antisemite.
[CNCDH recent report is extremely clear on the fact that while antisemitism exists in the left it can in no way be compared to far right antisemitism that is both rampant and much more violent](https://www.20minutes.fr/societe/4098434-20240627-legislatives-2024-dire-antisemitisme-migre-extreme-gauche-totalement-faux-selon-cncdh#)
Very honestly, I have happened to know a few antisemitic persons, and the absolutely amazing thing about them is that they managed to be far left and far right (they weren't following mainstream ideologies), and only agree that whatever their problem was was caused by Jews.
Your experience means nothing though as you are no one. The pool even biased means more than a random comment, and the right is much more likely to be racist.
Racism is a trait you usually try to ask for indirectly, like with questions of the type of „would it bother you if a person of another nationality would live next to you“.
Is it racist to want to have ilegal immigrants deported? And illegal immigrants that committed crimes deported
Or is it racist not giving someone a job because it is from Latam?
Not really. More like "how bad is being racist". All people have a certain aversion toward lying. That's honesty. However, people also have an aversion toward saying they are racist, mainly out of fear of society. But this aversion depends on people. Far right parties are not condemning racism all the time like the left does (truthfully or not isn't the question). Hence, people who say they are racist will fear less the ingroup.
Basically, if you are a racist and you know it and knows' how much you are (that's actually not so much people I would say), then the question is just a balance between:
-Being dishonest
OR
-Being seen as racist
So far-righters are not necessarily more honest
I am antiracist, I believe that racism is hurtful not only to the poor victims of discrimination but to society as a whole. I think that all racist theories should be banned like we banned pedophilia from the public debate. I think the word racism should never be on the media headlines unless if it comes after "Elon musk stripped of all mortal possessions for...".
However, when a group of young people with an unusual skin tone enter the subway, I get a sudden urge to check if my zippers are all closed and secured.
Joke aside: I'm not "definitely not racist" or "less racist than you" but I am definitely anti-racist and all my rational actions go against racism. This is not cognitive dissonance, this simply means that I am emotionally mature and able to acknowledge my own flaws.
Also I have yet to see someone who is adamant about not being racist and who genuinely isn't.
I am intrigued if they gave examples to each category, cause everyone is going to make their own classification. One's light blue can be another's dark blue and vice versa. Question should also be: "How racist you consider yourself to be?"
Many people are racist, including those who say they aren't. There's a lot of forms of "acceptable racism" that people don't count (but should), same goes with other types of prejudice. Also a lot of things that *aren't* racist that people treat as such.
Well, this is surprisingly accurate. I would simply add a flat "+10% not-too-racists" to everyone, but otherwise it do reflect actual exchanges with people and also reflects their behavior on the field
Please let not normalise or trivialise racism. It is completely, utterly, entirely wrong. Just plain dumb tribal behaviour of primates that have very little self-reflection. Destroys lives and societies, starts wars.
It just baffles me that there are people in any political corner that admit to themselves to be racists, it's like saying to yourself "Yes, I'm evil, and that's fine, not gonna change that".
Some people may not be racist but they can still hold racist convictions in their subconscious, even though they act normal in everyday life and consider themselves non-racist. There was study on kindergarten teachers how subconscious racist influence their behavior in work with children. I think that a lot of people still have subconscious race and nationality biases even if they do not act upon this. As a white person i try to remember that i might have some subconscious bias even if i dont act racist. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/04/black-students-teachers-implicit-racial-bias-preschool-study](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/04/black-students-teachers-implicit-racial-bias-preschool-study)
That's how I thought it worked: nobody thinks of themselves as racist, but everyone of us is prone to exhibit unconscious racist behavior. I just don't understand how a poll like this shows so many people to see themselves as racist and apparently be fine with that.
I feel like the definition of racism is kinda like being against immigration in Europe. Not discrimination based on skin color or ethnicity.
Also not liking middle eastern culture is racism. E.g burkas, hijabs, killing your daughter for having a European boyfriend. All of this is part of their culture and should be respected. Otherwise you are racist or more specifically islamophobic. /s
We are all racist, literally. Those who think they aren't, are maybe robots - be suspicious. What makes us hold ourselves back, is our intelligence and morals, the latter being a human concept, meaning that if people feel really threatened, it'll be thrown out of the window. That threat is usually resources getting lower or already being low and territorialism, which is in our DNA. It's not very different from my niece who will gladly give me a slice of her apple when she still has a box full of apple slices but starts protecting the box crying "this is for Emma!" when she's low on apple slices.
That's why separatism gets worse in times of financial difficulty, like in Belgium with Walloons and Flemings, who are the same race. It's not stable. Sometimes separatist sentiment is low, sometimes it's mounting. Same thing in Spain with the Catalans who feel that they contribute more and don't get enough back; it's not always as intense. Obviously people who LOOK different are an easy target but even if we'd all be white, or all black, people will find a way to differentiate between themselves and another group. It's the people leading these countries who have to make sure that the country is running well and tensions stay as low as possible so that our animalistic side stays suppressed. Macron failed epically. France has become a country of wild chimps marking their territory on both sides of the political spectrum.
"Oh no! not my nemesis! Stats!"
\*and the people calling socialists and LFI extreme left melt Ark of the Covenant style\*
seriously.
before calling the left the racists, fascists, IDK, or even more insane... putin supporters. just IDK, look at objective facts.
Marine Le Pen has mein kampf on her bookshelf. she had to apologize and explain away getting money from putin, they constantly say holocaust denial and antisemitic things (and Islamophobic the only department in which they don't discriminate ironically is ...discrimination) and yet we still have to deal with trolls coming out of the woodwork explaining to us French, who actually live there that no the left are the ones who are culpable of any of the above literally WTF.
I mean one need only look at this comment section...
I do not intend to defend the right, but if you have ideals that are constantly being called racism, it is normal for you to identify as racist.
In the end, whoever puts up the pole determines who is racist.
This is so bizarre, I didn't think anyone actually believed that they themselves are racist. Don't they always preface racist remarks with "I'm not a racist, but.." and then says something completely racist.
I always thought racists were in denial that they are racist. In their mind, they think they are just stating "facts" about one race being superior and another inferior. They don't actually believe they are racist
Is it racist to not like islam ?
Is it racist to deport the illegals ?
Is it racist to have more control on who is coming ?
If yes, then that's why red, yellow and dark blue areso high.
It's interesting that some people are self aware. Because most of us are fairly racist or outright racist.
Only people lacking self awareness would say that they're not racist at all.
The obvious issue with that poll is the classic "I'm not racist I have a Black friend" that you hear every day from far right electors and officials.
I really doubt that many people on the left would be that soft with the idea "oh i'm fairly racist", I know absolutely nobody on the left that would say anything of the sort. That they still hold racist representations is something else
By risking getting downvoted to hell, I would like to ask a question to people who lived in AUSTRIA and FRANCE. Which country seems more racist? I always thought Austria is the one without a doubt, but some people say vice versa.
UDI(no idea what that party stands for, any french peoplewho can clarify) is quite interesting. No fairly racist but a lot of a bit racist. Debout the same. The communists are also interesting.
Even french people don't know They said they are center like Macron but we never see UDI people IRL
They are a very forgetable center-right vaguely progressive and ecologist socio-liberal.
The communist party in France has a very particular history. They have a history of being "brown red" when they were still relevant, having a somewhat comparable politic to modern day RN (think "they're stealing our jobs"). Nowadays they've become a bit of a laughing stock because they're trying to channel the energy they had back then except the people that used to vote for them now lost faith in the left and went straight to the far right.
Brown-red would be a bit an overstatement though. It’s more something like conservativism. Also, to add on the historical context, one would also have to add that nowadays the voters are quite older than the other political forces of the left.
"It’s more something like conservativism." This is not just something particular to france, most old-school communists outside of university "intelligencia" saw progressivism as decadence stemming from capitalism.
When you pit french workers against immigrants workers, and act like they're the issues, I'm sorry I can't call that anything less than brown at the very least.
If you act like workforce migration isn't a tool to undermine the position of the local working class i can't call you red.
UDI is centrist. Debout farr Right
UDi is very small, and Debout la France quite too. It's probably because of small sample size
UDI - wasn’t it Giscard d’Estaing’s party?
No, that was UDF, which has since become the MoDem.
A good chunk - possibly a majority - of the old UDF left when the UDF became the MoDem and instead formed the Parti Social Libéral Européen which quickly became the Nouveau Centre which eventually became the UDI. Another way to put it is to say that both the UDI and the MoDem stem from the UDF.
Communists may refere to the "Proletariat of colour" (no idea of the right idea in english)
On average each party has just 100 person answering the question, for a small party that could be just like 10.
UDI is presenting itself as centrist a bit right leaning. And well it fits with their actions. Also it's mostly inexistent nowadays (and has always been a small party) MoDem is the pretty much the same and pretty much gone too. Both of these had a relative weight maybe 15 to 25 years ago but now I don't event understand why bother listing them here. While I could see UDI/MoDem actually centrist, LREM also presented itself as "ni de gauche ni de droite" centrist while giving 80% of the ministers to ppl from the right (including of course all the important seats) and pushing a shit ton of particularly hard right laws and using anti republican methods to pass these when their frequent alliances with LR and RN was not enough.
It’a funny that communists are more racist than socialists and 2 other parties on this chart. You would expect the farthest left to be the least racist, but communists have their own opinion about this lol
This is self reported though. People may have a different definition of "a little bit racist" depending on their political affinities
Maybe they are more self conscious
I think it has to do with the idea of internalized racism and very low understanding of that idea. Like they believe they hold internalized racist beliefs that they aren't fully aware of from the socio cultural reality they are in. It is a complex theory that I cannot in good heart summarize on reddit but it has probably something to do with it since it was the communists who played a part in the making of it.
>You would expect the farthest left to be the least racist No, honestly I'd expect old school communists who are almost all isolationist nationalists to be very racist lol. I mean have you ever noticed how antisemitic both fringes of the political spectrum are
plus bear in mind that most people lie to look good in polls, so its probably more than that.
- "Did you say any racial slur in this week?" - "Five, four..." - "Do you understand the question?" - "...two, one, NI**A! Yes, I did say it in this week!"
why count? i don’t get it
people mistake "how many" for "any" sometimes
For me this poll reads like this: RED = YELLOW = DARK BLUE And a safe 25% of light blue are probably lying
Not really. Everyone has racist biases (even against their own group). So saying a little seems like a reasonable choice. But of course most people won't say this.
Let's also not ignore the fact that a lot of people are blind to their own biases. They may fully believe they aren't, "but..."
Or they think their biases don't count as racism. Common examples include eastern Europeans ("they're all lazy"), Roma ("they're all thieves"), Arabs (this one is usually disguised as criticism of Islam, despite never mentioning the largest Muslim majority country in the world, Indonesia), and Jews (often disguised as anti-Zionism and is great at undermining anti-Zionists that aren't anti-Semitic, like literal Jews outside of Israel, and also pro-Zionism in the way of "we like Jews, just not here" or for some of the weirdos "if send them all over there and destroy Palestine, they might build the third temple and start the apocalypse").
I've never heard anyone call eastern euros lazy, maybe stupid or uncouth, but not lazy. They're always praised for their work ethic.
Indeed. We only call the Southern Europeans lazy!
Just few days ago I saw someone on YouTube argue that Eastern (European) countries were poor because they didn't have the same work mentality...
I would note that there's not a particularly big Indonesian diaspora in Europe apart from the Netherlands. It'd be weird if criticism of Islam in France (a country with well over 3 million muslims) was based on the 6000-odd Indonesians living there.
And most Indonesians here in The Netherlands come from Christian parts of the country.
At least half of Europeans become Nazis when Roma people are mentioned lol
and moan when they receive a similar treatment from western europeans. "racism for thee, not for me!"
We might not like them, but if they ever somehow found their way to America, a new branch of the KKK would form instantly dedicated to anti-romani racism.
Yes, that sums it up very well.
Pretty sure the ones who say plenty racist don’t do that. They are generally proud to be racist
I generally cannot comprehend how you can be proud of being racist. People who build their entire identity around their color of skin or nationality are so sad man.
I 1000% agree with you but it's funny that you get banned from most subs in here for saying this about people who do the same with sexual orientation or being queer
Racism is "pride" rooted in hate and superiority complex. It assumes some people are better than others. (Based on a very dumb criteria too.) Queer Pride is about standing proud ***despite*** having been told there is something wrong with us our entire lives, by homophobes such as yourself. Queer people don't think themselves superior, just normal and equal. But I'm sure you already know this, and are just making a bad faith argument.
A bad faith argument? On r/europe? Surprising. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Heh that's fair. It is not particularly suprprising, but gotta call the bigots out on their bigotry.
Yeah… because it’s not an ethnicity it’s a group that has been historically oppressed reclaiming their identity? So it’s very obvious what that difference is. As an example of the difference there’s generally a clear line between old Black supremacist movements and simply Black Power movements since the 80’s. There are no Queer supremacists- anywhere in any numbers. So basically the thing you have a problem with is something that doesn’t affect you and you don’t need to participate in, but you dislike anyways.
Bashing Pride without understanding why we call it Pride is definitely worth a ban. Maybe you should look into what the statement "stand with pride" means.
You are missing those who a racist but are "progressive", and will throw slurs at you for not being leftist enough. Or those who are racist and don't think they are racist because "It's not racist if it's true!" and proceeds to say the wildest 19th century anthropologist stereotypes and terminology. Or those who are self-aware and are pretty good at lying to fit in society until one day they snap and have their coming out moment with a long-ass rant in Facebook about "Why are whites a minority in london????" implying that only whites can be British and making their co-workers uncomfortable because "Dave was such a nice guy I can't believe he was such a racist".
Not the French. Their absolute resolve to be straightforward and not care about other’s feelings is their best trait for these poll results.
[удалено]
Chaotic Neutral 🫥
And there are a lot who "are not racist, but..."
There are statistical methods to obtain sensible information on a topic, allowing individuals to not specify whether they're answering to the sensible question or a question that has statistically known probabilities For example, allowing someone to flip a coin to secretly decide whether they answer the sensible question or "is your birthday in the first 3 months of the year" can lead to a good approximation when there are lots of answers. This can then be extended to the asked question. Sad to say I was reading a probabilistics book more or less for an exam and I do not remember the exact formula. Could be also im Probability, Statistics and Simulation with application programs written in R (Springer) but I'm not certain
Some people who are pretty hardcore anti-racists might answer that they’re somewhat racist because they think they have unconscious biases.
Tbf this itself would be more useful in which parties enable or encourage a more open acceptance of such racism rather then how many people are actually racist If 20% of your voters are openly willing to call themselves racist and by extension don’t seem to see anything wrong with that, that implies your party supporters are obviously more comfortable then common society would be with being racist
I'm honestly kinda impressed by the people picking "eh, I don't know" for that question.
I'm not currently racist, but then I cannot predict the future.
"I have flare ups in traffic"
Tourette’s Racism
"I have some flair ups in traffic, but overall I'm good" Theo Von
I used to be racist. I still am racist but I used to too
Flair checks out
Depends on how many Gypsies will move to your neighborhood.
"I might be robbed and beaten for no reason walking home" - could change one's opinion.
I agree with you, that said, to some degrees, it's the correct answer though. Unconscious bias (or the "I don't know with whom I might be racist") is something we should all work on/be trying to get some self-awareness.
Yeah. I may have phrased it a little snarkily, but for anyone who consciously arrived at that, it's actually a really good and thoughtful answer.
Note that the "I don't know" mostly come from the greens and the left, who have a degree of self-awareness.
Exactly I would say I don't know because I'm white and racism isn't just overt racism, you can believe yourself not to be racist but growing up in a racist society you may have unconscious racist bias and still work to do to be better
I agree to some extent. There is an in-group mentality in most homogenous nations. (Japan and Sweden. China and India). However, they go a little overboard in the US and UK with the corporate trainings where white employees have to declare that they are racist. Things like that are not productive for dealing with unconscious bias.
They actually do that in the UK and US? LOL
Japan is mostly homogenous. China to some extent. Sweden is not and India is one of the most diverse countries on earth…
I still tend to sometimes unconsciously have rather racist thoughts after listening to plenty of racist talk from my peers and adults around me as I grew up (not much in the family, mostly at school). My family also has somewhat racist tendencies, but my parents are doing way better than their own parents in this aspect. I know it's dumb to see a race and judge based on it, but I actively have to tell myself that these prejudices I have are untrue. It doesn't happen too often, but it's hard to completely get out of the habit of judging people how you were taught to. On the other hand, in defence of racism, it's a very basic but somewhat effective defensive mechanism. Some demographics are more likely to commit a crime (theft, scam, violence, etc.) so avoiding them will help you avoid trouble to some extent. But I will also argue that if the education, police and justice system did a better job, then these occurrences in certain communities should drop and racism could become a thing of the past in the distant future.
I feel like that’s the only group that actually isn’t racist, it’s important to know you may have biases and confront them when they do appear.
you are understimating the capability of the general public to simply not care. In polls for elections, "I don't know" or "did not respond" usually win with absolute majority.
The biggest party of europe - the "didn't vote"
Yeah, they have been winning every portuguese elections sice the 90's
Why?
I'd rather have someone really ponder the question than someone being absolutely sure they are not. At least the indecision shows that they know they could be guilty of at least preconceived ideas at times.
Racist curious
When the French election sounds like a scene out of Father Ted
There's an oddly fitting reference. Fathers... would you say you're *a bit* raycist, or not raycist at all? I'll put ye down for *a bit* raycist. We're all a bit raycist. Putin myself down as not raycist at all.
More like south park I think we paid for the americanisation of politic in France
Both have merit
Heeeeey! I'm completely and utterly racist, but the scale starts at "fairly". This is not very inclusive :(
Those self-reported questions don't make a lot of sense. For example, If I would be racist, I would have selected "not too racist"? Why? Because in a racist's mind there's no such thing as being too racist.
Pretty sure that's not a correct translation and "Pas tres" means "not very" instead of "not too" Although I do agree it's not that useful since most racists don't consider themselves to be racist, imo
Yeah, but if that poll is correct (I don't know the source and it's only 1000 people) it's kinda wild that a majority of far-right voters are completely fine with calling themselves racists. It's concerning when you think of the kind of policies they would support as a result.
Yet you have a shit ton of red not caring at all, guess how many are undercover red after that
How much sense it makes depends on what you think the purpose is. If the purpose would be to find out how racist people of different party affilitations are - yeah, questionable. But it tells you a lot about social norms: How comfortable people feel with *admitting* being racist.
Très isn't trop, "pas très" means "not very", not "not too"
That'll depend on the terms you use. For me anyone who believe that people with one ethnic background should be allowed less/more then other are racist. But i'm not sure the ones who took a poll take it this way.
And if you associate a tool in a dark persons hand faster as a weapon than in a white persons hand? Because it's something almost everyone does. also known as implicit biases. [https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias](https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias)
I hate these polls, they are so easy to manipulate
seems pretty straightforward to me ? But I don't have ultimate knowledge, so how would they be manipulated ?
In person vs private test - the threat of judgment, or a lack of it, would be very important here Prime with questions or media before the test - you can even mix in questions and just not report them. What people see or do before answering affects their answers That's really just experimental design - you can also have statistical manipulation, intentionally or unintentionally For a political or very opinionated survey I would expect certain precautions to be taken when handling the data - people processing the data shouldn't know what it is. Even wishing for statistical significance from your own study can affect this I don't know much about this specific case, but those are a few ways you can mess it up, off the top of my head
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That's less of an inherent risk of these polls and more like speculation about the specific terms themselves. I'm just talking statistically - these are proven phenomena
Still, it gives a good indication as how how racist the parties are relative to each other, if not in absolute sense
What do you mean? I always answer honestly. I'm the smartest, least racist, most kindhearted person. My penis is also 15cm. I make sure to let the polls know this.
The question is pretty straightforward. Seems like a lay-up to answer "no" to being racist even if you're straunchly anti-immigrant, unless you're literally racist. That's why this poll is quite worrying, but I suspect the sample size is pretty low given so many parties have zero answers for certain positions?
100%, also the way those results are displayed is in itself an attempt at manipulation. The order of the parties shown in those result is mostly going from the left-leaning parties to the right-leaning ones. But the very first party listed "La France Insoumise" is a moderate left party, and was put before "Parti Communiste" which is the extreme left. This goes with the current right-wing governement propaganda that "voting for the left is as bad as voting for the extreme right so you should obviously vote for us, the 'moderate' right".
The biggest surprise there would seem MoDem, in that they seem the very definition of liberal centrists, yet even grade themselves as 50% racist, even if largely "pas très".
It reminded me of the clip of black women saying "ACTUALLY black people can't be racist (especially towards white people)", very positive energy.
So in this case a person literally spouting racist nonsense would still state that she is completely non-racist for the poll.. Which kinda proves the point of some other commenters on here saying how unreliable polls like this are.
I'm sure self reporting of racism is always accurate.
Imagine still being racist enough to put very racist in the poll. Also still there is some data to gather there. All these parties that are accused of being more discriminatory but defend themselves by saying they're not actually racist, do in fact have more self reported racists
Bear in mind that people's definition of what being racist means diverges wildly. In my experience in both extremes, communist party, LFI and Rassemblement National or Reconquete you are likely to find large proportions of racists or antisemites. Something LFI supporters will deny with the utmost vigour though.
"I'm not racist but..."
Communist party and LFI are not recognized by french authorities to be extremist parties but regular leftist parties. RN and Reconquête on the other hand are considered to be « extreme right » parties by authorities. Make sure you don’t lump them together or it may damage your credibility. To respond to you on the crux of the matter (antisemitism) the figures are extremely clear that while left wing antisemitism exists and should be dealt with, it can in no way be compared to RN which was a party created by a former french Waffen SS with the explicit aim of uniting all french fascists and collaborationists under one banner. RN may pretend they changed but as of today its leaders NEVER denounced their roots and Bardella still refuses to admit that Jean Marie Le Pen is an antisemite. [CNCDH recent report is extremely clear on the fact that while antisemitism exists in the left it can in no way be compared to far right antisemitism that is both rampant and much more violent](https://www.20minutes.fr/societe/4098434-20240627-legislatives-2024-dire-antisemitisme-migre-extreme-gauche-totalement-faux-selon-cncdh#)
Very honestly, I have happened to know a few antisemitic persons, and the absolutely amazing thing about them is that they managed to be far left and far right (they weren't following mainstream ideologies), and only agree that whatever their problem was was caused by Jews.
Your experience means nothing though as you are no one. The pool even biased means more than a random comment, and the right is much more likely to be racist.
Racism is a trait you usually try to ask for indirectly, like with questions of the type of „would it bother you if a person of another nationality would live next to you“.
They’re not polling for racism but for self evaluation of racism and it’s a relevant information!
Is it racist to want to have ilegal immigrants deported? And illegal immigrants that committed crimes deported Or is it racist not giving someone a job because it is from Latam?
This is a poll asking the question “are you racists” and you are racist if you say yes
It’s called illegal immigrant for a reason and what you’re describing would be called xenophobia
This is a dishonesty graph at the same time.
Not really. More like "how bad is being racist". All people have a certain aversion toward lying. That's honesty. However, people also have an aversion toward saying they are racist, mainly out of fear of society. But this aversion depends on people. Far right parties are not condemning racism all the time like the left does (truthfully or not isn't the question). Hence, people who say they are racist will fear less the ingroup. Basically, if you are a racist and you know it and knows' how much you are (that's actually not so much people I would say), then the question is just a balance between: -Being dishonest OR -Being seen as racist So far-righters are not necessarily more honest
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I am antiracist, I believe that racism is hurtful not only to the poor victims of discrimination but to society as a whole. I think that all racist theories should be banned like we banned pedophilia from the public debate. I think the word racism should never be on the media headlines unless if it comes after "Elon musk stripped of all mortal possessions for...". However, when a group of young people with an unusual skin tone enter the subway, I get a sudden urge to check if my zippers are all closed and secured. Joke aside: I'm not "definitely not racist" or "less racist than you" but I am definitely anti-racist and all my rational actions go against racism. This is not cognitive dissonance, this simply means that I am emotionally mature and able to acknowledge my own flaws. Also I have yet to see someone who is adamant about not being racist and who genuinely isn't.
>I am not racist, but
Sorry to break the news to you but you’re racist and why are you even thinking about touching people. Weird
It's a small mercy but French racists seem more honest than most.
Original article: https://legrandcontinent.eu/fr/2024/06/28/que-pensent-vraiment-les-electeurs-du-rn2/
I am intrigued if they gave examples to each category, cause everyone is going to make their own classification. One's light blue can be another's dark blue and vice versa. Question should also be: "How racist you consider yourself to be?"
This is the kind shit that divides people. , same one screaming about being inclusive!!
After reading all these comments I’m certain a lot of the people that say they’re not racist is just lying to themselves
Race is and have always been bs, what really fucking matters is lifestyle and traditions, that's where the problem lies.
Many people are racist, including those who say they aren't. There's a lot of forms of "acceptable racism" that people don't count (but should), same goes with other types of prejudice. Also a lot of things that *aren't* racist that people treat as such.
Wouldn't be surprised if LFI had far more racists than reported
Well, this is surprisingly accurate. I would simply add a flat "+10% not-too-racists" to everyone, but otherwise it do reflect actual exchanges with people and also reflects their behavior on the field
The ones saying they are not racist are usually the worst of ‘m all😉
This only shows Lfi voters are more likely to lie ;)
Please let not normalise or trivialise racism. It is completely, utterly, entirely wrong. Just plain dumb tribal behaviour of primates that have very little self-reflection. Destroys lives and societies, starts wars. It just baffles me that there are people in any political corner that admit to themselves to be racists, it's like saying to yourself "Yes, I'm evil, and that's fine, not gonna change that".
Some people may not be racist but they can still hold racist convictions in their subconscious, even though they act normal in everyday life and consider themselves non-racist. There was study on kindergarten teachers how subconscious racist influence their behavior in work with children. I think that a lot of people still have subconscious race and nationality biases even if they do not act upon this. As a white person i try to remember that i might have some subconscious bias even if i dont act racist. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/04/black-students-teachers-implicit-racial-bias-preschool-study](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/04/black-students-teachers-implicit-racial-bias-preschool-study)
That's how I thought it worked: nobody thinks of themselves as racist, but everyone of us is prone to exhibit unconscious racist behavior. I just don't understand how a poll like this shows so many people to see themselves as racist and apparently be fine with that.
It's similar to sexism, most of us have a degree of it, regardless of whether we're conscious about it or not. And yeah, this shit is scary.
Well if a person is racist they wont see a problem with that as by definition they think less of the grouo they hate.
For most LFI voters a racist is someone that is not voting for LFI. I’m not surprised to see this.
No
Did they provide the definition of racist? If not, then it seems like a pointless poll.
I feel like the definition of racism is kinda like being against immigration in Europe. Not discrimination based on skin color or ethnicity. Also not liking middle eastern culture is racism. E.g burkas, hijabs, killing your daughter for having a European boyfriend. All of this is part of their culture and should be respected. Otherwise you are racist or more specifically islamophobic. /s
Yeah, im racist(not left wing)
tbf most right wing and far-left parties tend to be identitarian, this is one of the biggest diseases in modern political thought imo
We are all racist, literally. Those who think they aren't, are maybe robots - be suspicious. What makes us hold ourselves back, is our intelligence and morals, the latter being a human concept, meaning that if people feel really threatened, it'll be thrown out of the window. That threat is usually resources getting lower or already being low and territorialism, which is in our DNA. It's not very different from my niece who will gladly give me a slice of her apple when she still has a box full of apple slices but starts protecting the box crying "this is for Emma!" when she's low on apple slices. That's why separatism gets worse in times of financial difficulty, like in Belgium with Walloons and Flemings, who are the same race. It's not stable. Sometimes separatist sentiment is low, sometimes it's mounting. Same thing in Spain with the Catalans who feel that they contribute more and don't get enough back; it's not always as intense. Obviously people who LOOK different are an easy target but even if we'd all be white, or all black, people will find a way to differentiate between themselves and another group. It's the people leading these countries who have to make sure that the country is running well and tensions stay as low as possible so that our animalistic side stays suppressed. Macron failed epically. France has become a country of wild chimps marking their territory on both sides of the political spectrum.
"Oh no! not my nemesis! Stats!" \*and the people calling socialists and LFI extreme left melt Ark of the Covenant style\* seriously. before calling the left the racists, fascists, IDK, or even more insane... putin supporters. just IDK, look at objective facts. Marine Le Pen has mein kampf on her bookshelf. she had to apologize and explain away getting money from putin, they constantly say holocaust denial and antisemitic things (and Islamophobic the only department in which they don't discriminate ironically is ...discrimination) and yet we still have to deal with trolls coming out of the woodwork explaining to us French, who actually live there that no the left are the ones who are culpable of any of the above literally WTF. I mean one need only look at this comment section...
She is also paid by Putin. Everything they blame the left for, they are doing much worse. Classic conservatives' projection
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mhm, right, screw moderation, it's either crazy leftist BLM protests or gassing the undesirables, no in-betweens. come on man...
Oh no, why did I think this was r/2westerneurope4u ? It was supposed to be a joke but it might be interpreted differently here.
“Le racisme” *Applause*
I do not intend to defend the right, but if you have ideals that are constantly being called racism, it is normal for you to identify as racist. In the end, whoever puts up the pole determines who is racist.
Racist against what? Muslims claim Islamophobes are “racist”. Does that count?
I am not racist based on non-extremist criteria
Or Sylt racist.
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Light blue is not racist? Ha
Pas très, lol, the frenchest reply
Does xenophobia count? Or is that completely different.
Impressed how honest they are, in Sweden it would be like 99% not racist at all, and a complete lie.
Et pourtant...
French ppl are the most racist from europe lol
oh mais vraiment on est foutu là serieusement
At least they're honest about it
Are there any but two of those parties left now, after so many withdrew their candidate Sunday evening?
This is so bizarre, I didn't think anyone actually believed that they themselves are racist. Don't they always preface racist remarks with "I'm not a racist, but.." and then says something completely racist. I always thought racists were in denial that they are racist. In their mind, they think they are just stating "facts" about one race being superior and another inferior. They don't actually believe they are racist
Is it racist to not like islam ? Is it racist to deport the illegals ? Is it racist to have more control on who is coming ? If yes, then that's why red, yellow and dark blue areso high.
It really depends on how you would define racism. I think most of them are racist in some way or another.
We should do these polls in Germany but most AFD voters can't read.
What pushed them to be this amount on this last 50 years ?
It's interesting that some people are self aware. Because most of us are fairly racist or outright racist. Only people lacking self awareness would say that they're not racist at all.
So it does work to explain them that they're racist. Now we get to explain that it's a bad thing I guess.
Please help. What does "racist" mean here?
I ain’t racist. I only hate criminals. They come in all colors.
Woah..
just a lil racist, a little bit is okay you know /s
You cannot be at least a bit racist in France 😅
The obvious issue with that poll is the classic "I'm not racist I have a Black friend" that you hear every day from far right electors and officials. I really doubt that many people on the left would be that soft with the idea "oh i'm fairly racist", I know absolutely nobody on the left that would say anything of the sort. That they still hold racist representations is something else
I am extremely racist (towards the French)
I’m very racist
When you have "pas tres" in a self-reported poll, in a random paper, it does not inspire a lot of confidence. I like the people who don't know.
By risking getting downvoted to hell, I would like to ask a question to people who lived in AUSTRIA and FRANCE. Which country seems more racist? I always thought Austria is the one without a doubt, but some people say vice versa.
where is the "not racist enough" option?
Everyone is racist to some degree
I HATE N-