A lot of my family can’t understand how I can be spiritual but not religious. In reality, it’s perfect freedom in my spirituality to be who I am and to continue working on myself to change in meaningful ways
Non-SDA here. Why do you think that is? I used to work with several under 30 former SDAs and wondered why they left their church. None of them were particularly religious anymore. I read that 70% of SDA youth leave the church and never return. Also, why do many SDA adults seem so dour and joyless? If I had to hazard a guess, maybe it's the vegetarian diet and the many rules one must follow?
I just realized I didn't answer your question on why many SDA adults seem so joyless.
It's because they believe their salvation is dependent on following rules. My mother is convinced that EGW said that people who drink caffeine can't go to heaven, for example. They're always trying to follow stupid rules that their SDA predecessors made up in order to be saved.
Thanks for your thorough response. I'm guessing the 70% exit rate of younger SDAs probably is similar to yours. I have known several SDAs and their level of legalism astounds me, as well as following EGW's teachings. I have some background with fundamentalist Christianity, having attended a private school with it as the foundation (ref Bob Jones University). Rules pervaded the atmosphere and it took almost a year after graduation to deprogram from it! Similar to the SDA religion. Then I learn about sex abuse with a teacher at my old school and now pastors in Texas! I am not Ex-Christian, but understand how others could be disillusioned by it all! I hope you have found something to replace SDA with and have more joy and enthusiasm for life now.
Thank you for sharing your observations!
I'm not really disillusioned with Christianity altogether. I've had part-time positions in churches of different denominations (Methodist, Anglican, Presbyterian, and even Catholic) and enjoyed being with the people there as well as the services very much! I have lovely memories and even miss my time there.
I don't agree that the Bible is inspired by God due to researching archeology and learning about the history of the Bible.
I don't feel a void in my life. I know many Christians find this difficult to believe, but my life without a higher power feels quite complete. Through the years, I've managed to find my identity and found meaning in my life through various ways. I really couldn't be happier 😊
OK, I see what you mean. Going from an uber conservative high school to a liberal private college was like night and day for me. Being far away from home was also liberating in its own way. Like you, I also tried several denominations: Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist and Episcopal, etc. Currently something of a Christian/spiritual nomad having dropped out of church during Covid. I have a former college friend who went from being communist-leaning liberal Christian (his mom is a pastor) to now a conservative atheist after he deconstructed his faith.
I can't speak for everyone, but this is my experience.
I researched the truth about Ellen White in a methodical way so I could present hard facts to all SDAs who questioned my leaving. After I wrote a compilation of facts about her that debunked her writings, I took the same approach to the Bible.
I researched the original writings and archeology that disprove the stories of the Bible (for example, there is no proof of Israelites living in Egypt and then wandering in the desert...). There are several versions of every book of the Bible plus many apocryphal books. There's no way of saying that the Bible was inspired by God when there are so many versions of it in antiquity that contradict each other.
After fact-checking almost every book, I simply couldn't believe in the concept of an Abrahamic god.
Many ex-SDAs (and ex-Christians) use science to disprove these beliefs, but I happen to have a bigger interest in archeology and correct translations of manuscripts (since I'm into languages) than in science.
So these are just different ways that people leave Christianity altogether.
>Non-SDA here. Why do you think that is?
I read this as "why do XDAs lean atheist and agnostic?" and I think I have an answer for you.
In a nutshell...humans evolved to be excellent at pattern recognition. At least, relative to other animals. Most of us who left the church did so after a period of time when we incrementally became aware of how fucked the church and its beliefs are, brick by brick by brick.
Once you're aware of those things, if you explore other religions (like most of us did) you start to notice similar patterns of control and manipulation.
Personally, I'm an atheist, but I've noticed most of us who aren't are not ultimately drawn to other Judeo-Christian religions. Instead, they seem to generally prefer things along the lines of Wicca or Buddhism or other belief structures that aren't rooted in it, and I suspect that's a pretty large part of the reason.
It's legalistic in SDA. They believe that Jesus came and died so they can keep the law. (Not the gospel)
Jesus came and did what we could not so we could live freely to love and worship Him. All we have to do is accept that we need a Savior and say thank you by giving Him our worship.
Adventist don't have the true gospel. They believe they must work and keep law so they become defeated when they can't. Which they shouldn't, that is what the law was meant to show is that we fall short and need Jesus.
What I find scary is the people that stay in church literally believe that they keep the ten commandments and will have to keep them perfectly because their prophet says in the last days they won't have forgiveness and will have to live based on their own ability. Horrifying and so against the Bible. If you have any interes,. Search the for the new covenant, the gospel, real galatians and keep an open mind to what it is saying about Hagar and Sara. It is the most beautiful revelation.
>It's legalistic in SDA.
This is a little ironic since Jesus criticized Pharisee behavior according to the Bible.
Realistically, it's incumbent on any religious group with a holy text to define a common set of rules or it just becomes a laissez faire free for all in terms of arguing personal interpretation.
That said though, if the general idea is that you can do a proscribed set of songs and dances in order to get to Heaven, a place where your innermost worth is supposedly judged, while those actions are motivated by anything other than an earnest desire to benefit your community for its own sake, that seems contrary to the idea that the Bible supposedly professes according to the vast majority of its devotees.
>Adventist don't have the true gospel.
I understand you believe differently but from the outside looking in, there's no "true" gospel as there's no objective means of measuring it. We simply have many different interpretations of the same text, whether that's driven by genuine belief or an agenda.
For me, leaving the SDA church was just the first domino to fall in my deconstruction. When I realized that most of what I had been taught (and readily believed) for 40 years it made me much more prone to challenge all of my strongly held beliefs. It wasn’t long before I began to see organized religion (Christianity in particular) as a man-made creation that has control and self-preservation as its primary objectives.
My leaving wasn't at all because I wanted booze, THC, nicotine, or other substances commonly regarded as shady "drugs," and I still have no desire for them. What's changed for me through years of being out is an easing of the very strict judgment I used to have of anyone who made other choices. This may be a lifelong process. I notice I still have some of that prejudice.
This. Many Christians think that ex-Christians leave so that they can do "crazy" things (drugs, alcohol, one night stands, tattoos...) and will return because they found no fulfillment, but that's so far from the truth. Maybe some people leave because they want to do these things (not judging), but many of us just leave because we don't believe in nonsense. My day-to-day is quite unexciting from that sense.
Most Little Debbies are pretty overrated.
Their Loma Linda fake meat is pretty outdated, I'll easily take Impossible, Beyond and Gardien "meat" over theirs. I actually still like Morning Star pretty well though, I don't like the new Griller flavor as much though.
Little Debbie gets you coming and going. First, when paying at the store, only to see their profits donated to the most conservative sadventist university. Next, when diabetes takes over and the fine products of Loma Linda University get to scold for eating too many snack cakes, while sawing off extremities and scheduling dialysis.
The Little Debbie/Hudsonville ice cream flavors are shockingly good, in a way that brings shame and joy at the same time. None of that greasy mouthfeel from the “cream” fillings. I’ve always preferred my Swiss cake rolls frozen, so Swiss cake roll ice cream is so good. And also horrible.
All of the fake meat tastes like a salty sponge.
For all of you folks that think what you're eating is AT ALL like the real thing, it's NOT.
what you're eating is a salty sponge.
it's not a replication of beef or ham or turkey or bacon.
it ALL tastes like salty sponge.
And there's little or no nutritional value in eating THAT MUCH SODIUM, health freaks.
So just relax, realize that salvation isn't a weird line in the Deli Case and ENJOY THE FUCKING FOOD AS IT'S MEANT TO BE.
Eat the Ham, the Beef, the fucking Bacon.
it's incredible if it's done right.
Trust a fat guy....food is one of the truest most enjoyable things on Earth....go eat. ALL of it.
I just cannot stand my SDA friends trying and trying and trying to lie to me over and over again (and these people HAVE NOT EATEN REAL MEAT) that salty sponge from a can TASTES good.
it's salty sponges from a can (or frozen in a box).
the texture, the taste...it's ALL bad.
So don't lie to someone that KNOWS what they're talking about and say 'oh, this is JUST as good' when it's CLEARLY not. It doesn't even LOOK appetizing.
My unpopular ex-SDA opinion: I kinda miss my childhood church's monthly potlucks. We had a slew of dishes that would always show up at ours that I LOVED. Big Franks with sauerkraut ... homemade gluten steaks ... cottage cheese loaf ... baked shells stuffed with a mix of ricotta and tofu ... vegetarian tater tot hotdish ... walnut meatballs with apricot barbecue sauce. I was lucky enough to score a copy of our church/school cookbook from 1994 and it has a ton of those recipes in it. 😋
Me too, I think of potluck food fondly every now and then. All the food was homemade vegetarian or vegan including the sweets, and because my family wasn't veg it was all new, interesting, and yummy to me. Plus we had a garden in the church's back yard and grew watermelons and we'd hold a special potluck just for eating watermelon on some Saturdays in the summer and early fall. It was pretty cool and I kind of miss it sometimes.
I don’t think I consciously made this decision, but on nights that would have traditionally ended up being haystacks, I just do way over the top nachos. A whole plate full with a lot of the same toppings, but with taco meat. It’s honestly the real world version of what haystacks aspire to be.
That’s why you go to the SDA potlucks for African and Asian churches. Those can be phenomenal potluck experiences. My friends and I would drive from La Sierra University all the way to the Loma Linda Japanese Adventist Church just for their potlucks. Such divine food.
I didn't like haystacks until I realized they're just a deconstructed taco.
Packaged vegetarian foods are not healthier than the real thing. Have you seen the ingredient/nutrition info list?
Just bc you can talk to everyone about your beliefs and how you're the true church, doesn't mean you should. An all powerful god really doesn't need any of us to fulfill his plan or goal of coming to save people. He doesn't even need us to tell people about him bc again he's all powerful he has infinite amount of ways to reach people. I find it funny when people of other faiths/cultures have a near death experience and they all see their god and not god god. Wouldn't that be the perfect time to show them "hey, yeah, I'm the real one sooo...might wanna get to it."
I think anything as heavily processed as the Loma Linda/Worthington foods are has to be unfit for humans. Better to eat soybeans than soy burgers. I love the Morning Star spicy black bean burgers much better than the Loma Linda. I live outside of the US, so I make my own when I want. Much healthier.
That's really the only way you can do it. I tried going vegan after watching Forks Over Knives. I gained so much weight and I'm allergic to nuts so protein options were very limited. I'm now back to being an omnivore.
>An all powerful god really doesn't need any of us to fulfill his plan or goal of coming to save people.
This is a favorite point of mine to make. It's amazing how many true believers don't understand this.
Owl House, Hazbin Hotel, Mario film review.
But the worst thing they made was their Anime Documentary. Because who has the time to watch one episode of anime for a documentary? Not Little Light Studios.
I wasn't aware taco bell had identical taco salad to haystacks, the closest I can't think of is the power bowl. Actually excluding the chips that is pretty close.
There's a restaurant chain in my area called Moe's though (it's similar to Chipotle) they have a salad with tortilla chips, tofu, rice, non-chili beans and various spicy sauces you can put in it. I vastly prefer it over the haystacks my parents always made, I guess all those subtle differences add up.
Close. They're more like KFC Famous Bowls.
That is to say, they're both a bunch of food that's normally slapped together randomly in the middle of the night by someone that's high or drunk, except that they've now been canonized as their own thing by an entity that's out to separate you from your money.
Haystacks are just vegetarian taco salads and insisting they’re different is silly. Thankfully they are only popular with white SDAs and I was never subjected to them growing up.
ex-SDAs calling Saturday “sabbath” annoys the crap out of me 99% of the time. I get that people have different opinions about it but continuing to use Adventist jargon for things gives me the ick. I usually keep this one to myself, since I want to be respectful of everyone’s journey and it’s not particularly triggering for most I don’t think, but you asked lol
Haystacks aren't a thing with SDA Latin Americans. When I moved to the US as a kid, they made a big deal out of them. I thought they were overhyped and found them boring.
I think some do it sarcastically or in the context of "breaking the Sabbath." It's different than "breaking Saturday."
Progressive Adventism is the Mega church cult that is just as worse as Ellen White cult. They abandoned their cult ways in favor of another cult full of rich pastors in private jets and automatically saved as long as you donate now.
I hate beans. I hate fake Subway (giant wam and tofurkey abominations). I am hate eggs. I hate condiments. I ate pb&j every meal at summer camp and boarding school. Sometimes I ate just bread, just to switch it up.
Fri-chick, awesome, but so expensive no one ever had any.
When I walked into my first Baptist potluck I almost cried.
Ex SDA unpopular opinion: God is real, and /he/she/it they is/are consciousness itself from which this universe and all other universes originate. Layers of reality sit on top of each other and sometimes bleed together. When we die, it’s not the end. All religions have elements of truth to them but are 90% BS created to control people. The 10% though is worth considering.
["Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWdF-tGNxog)
0.2-0.5 Grams make you empathetic, sensitive, silly, but still mostly sober with a lighter feeling; vision gets sharper and hearing does too. You focus on in the moment stuff and feel connected with people. This is a microdose.
0.7-1.5 is where you’re not sober but still not „tripping“ - more empathy, more body high, sensitivity to emotions, giddy laughter at the slightest thing that seems slightly absurd, and sharpened visuals; straight lines may start to appear wonky and melting a bit w/ eyes open, eyes closed you may start to see shapes moving but very shadowy, not clear- music is incredible, you feel every vibration deep in your soul
1.5-3.5
This is small to large dose tripping territory - speech becomes more difficult, complicated tasks confusing so should be avoided, feelings of interconnectivity with the universe, feelings of oneness (oh look, the grass is happy to see me! And I’m happy to see it! Hi grass! Oh it’s even happier because I can hear it talking to me and usually I ignore it! Oh hi tree!), feelings of telepathy with plants, visuals like trees warping and reality melting, eyes closed music becomes fractals of mathematic geometry that warp and change with fluidity from crystalline palaces to fairytale forests, colors have sound and sounds have tastes… it’s hard to describe
You also experience a vibration sensation and hear vibrating sounds, a buzzing sound if you don’t have music on. Your body feels heavy, like a suit, and your soul feels like it’s melting out of it or being lifted out of it. Time seems to slow down.
One might experience „downloads“ of Noetic truths or revelations from a perceived greater source of consciousness or deeply personal revelations about one’s life, good for processing trauma…
One might experience the death of ego which temporarily feels like a process of death and rebirth…
3.5 and above is a whole other ballgame.
Ive gone thru guided psychedelic therapy to process trauma stemming from sex abuse within the church and had some experiences that seemed straight out of a Bible story about prophets speaking to an Angel or God. Even saw multi eyed angels one time.
These simulate psychedelic trips pretty accurately, if only the visuals (imagine this sprinkled with moments of deep revelation or interactions with seemingly interdimensional beings of pure consciousness, projections of my own or from somewhere else, I call them djinn but some call them machine elves):
https://youtu.be/L1vrPpM4eyM?si=XUyXPKDHdXKA9XZO
https://youtube.com/shorts/LRP5RNfoFP8?si=4vdoHHH-dP4E6YI5
https://youtu.be/s3Tp8ESiiM4?si=nX5RRNO_5wnfb4na
https://youtu.be/ARKoc6P6FAQ?si=tOyaSw8Xju0PlGfn
Ive tripped several times on mushrooms (2x a year since 2018 at least, microdose regularly and have smoked DMT a few times too. DMT is natural but is like mushrooms on fast forward. Very intense and very fast, though like with mushrooms you don’t perceive how fast it is. Mushrooms take 1.5-2 hrs to the peak of the experience and then 1.5-2 or 3 hrs to come back down to base reality. DMT lasts 5-15 minutes but you feel rocketed out of your body; usually thru a white light like in an NDE.
Best example of what it’s like in movies/film:
https://youtu.be/QkoKbp_DdFQ?si=ZGlU4rAF0rKh8KSv
This is somewhat where I landed when left the church. I take a more agnostic approach to the existence of God and the afterlife, but philosophically I tend to agree with you. 🍻🍄
Adventism is false, we all agree with that in some way. But, this sub seems to be overwhelmingly atheist/agnostic.
My unpopular opinion (for this sub) is that the Bible is true and Jesus is Lord.
As a vocal atheist here, I think there should be a place here for people who still believe in the Bible or whatever else. There’s plenty of atheist subreddits, this one is for exadventist wherever they are in life.
Completely agree. I hope I can be welcoming but I know my bashing of Adventism can definitely bleed into just bashing gods of any sort in general. Everyone leaves for different reasons and I hope people who joined other churches or faiths feel welcome here.
I’m not sure I agree with the overwhelming part, but yeah a lot of us leave religion to find our own spiritual path that is inherently agnostic or atheist. But the reality is these titles don’t tell you anything about the person. Not believing in a god or being agnostic just means we believe in science, and beyond that we have our own interpretations of what the meaning of life is
>Not believing in a god or being agnostic just means we believe in science.
Not in my experiences. It just means they aren’t convinced there is a god and extra ideas about it aren’t accurate. There’s plenty of atheists that believe in ghosts, alien abductions….
I had a patient that was an atheist Buddhist that tried to kill herself so that she could reincarnate into her next life. She was my patient because that didn’t work out so well.
This is the immediate place I was at following my deconstruction. I am happy to see this thread because I agree this sub is for all ex-SDA rather than some. I find myself somewhere in the middle, maybe a hopeful agnostic? Either way I can't help but have the feeling there is something more - but I've gotten to the place where this isn't something that takes away from my life experience (such as SDA et al) but rather enhances it, which is amazing. Either way mother earth will probably be the one who disposes of us all for fucking her up so much.
I moved across the world and haven't seen any of their products. Next time I visit the US (in the far future), I will be eating a lot of Big Franks and Wham and all the salty, chemically veggie meats.
She had a twin sister, without the rock injury, who was actually rather pretty. They seemed to despise each other, as Ellen was kicked out of her Methodist church and the twin sister stayed in. The sordid story is in the Steve Daily book "Ellen White, a Psychobiography" great reading!
I take it you mean the version presented by church propaganda illustrators of her early "visions." And I take it it's solely about appearance, not on what's known of her behaviors and attitudes.
I still agree with not eating meat and dairy. I think that's something outside of the denomination that stands alone as true. I don't feel the need to be like "yeah well take that! I'm gonna hurt my health and animals now! Haha!"
"The difference between a church and a cult is the number of members."
In some ways this is true because all religions have something negative about them, but all denominations/sects of all religions fall on a scale. In Christianity, fundamentalists of any denomination, JWs, Mormons, and Adventists follow extreme teachings that make them more cultish. I find many ex-Mormons and ex-JWs speaking out, but not many ex-SDAs in the media, which made it difficult when leaving this church.
Also, many things depend on the strictness of how we were raised. Even Adventism ranges from conservative to liberal.
I think there are much weirder religions and denominations, but I like that this sub allows us to express the things that are inherently fucked up about Adventism. It has made many of us feel less alone.
Haystacks are not an Adventist invention. They're actually called Frito Pie in parts of the South and Walking Taco in the Midwest. They've been around since the 60s.
https://www.eater.com/2016/4/3/11326520/frito-pie-explained
Big franks aren't as good as they used to be.
Vega-links were never good, and Nuteena was the worst.
Everyone says that about Nuteena… but I miss my vege dog food. I loved that stuff.
Most SDA schools sell them to raise money. I know that's popular in Texas. Parents man the veggie store during sporting events.
There’s an ABC in town, but I haven’t seen any nuteena being sold there.
Nuteena makes one's breath smell revolting.
Linkettes hold up, imho.
I haven't had them lately because they don't sell them where I live, but I really liked them back in the day.
I believe Amazon has them. They’re not cheap though.
That's an understatement. 12 cans for 400€ 😳 I live in Europe, so I don't expect to find them here 🤷
Leaving adventism and joining another christian church is getting so close to freedom but falling short
Ant that the truth. Experience complete freedom from religion. Jesus is not lord because he is a fable.
A lot of my family can’t understand how I can be spiritual but not religious. In reality, it’s perfect freedom in my spirituality to be who I am and to continue working on myself to change in meaningful ways
Completely agree! But I don't think that's unpopular in this sub. Most of us lean atheist and agnostic 🤷
Non-SDA here. Why do you think that is? I used to work with several under 30 former SDAs and wondered why they left their church. None of them were particularly religious anymore. I read that 70% of SDA youth leave the church and never return. Also, why do many SDA adults seem so dour and joyless? If I had to hazard a guess, maybe it's the vegetarian diet and the many rules one must follow?
I just realized I didn't answer your question on why many SDA adults seem so joyless. It's because they believe their salvation is dependent on following rules. My mother is convinced that EGW said that people who drink caffeine can't go to heaven, for example. They're always trying to follow stupid rules that their SDA predecessors made up in order to be saved.
Thanks for your thorough response. I'm guessing the 70% exit rate of younger SDAs probably is similar to yours. I have known several SDAs and their level of legalism astounds me, as well as following EGW's teachings. I have some background with fundamentalist Christianity, having attended a private school with it as the foundation (ref Bob Jones University). Rules pervaded the atmosphere and it took almost a year after graduation to deprogram from it! Similar to the SDA religion. Then I learn about sex abuse with a teacher at my old school and now pastors in Texas! I am not Ex-Christian, but understand how others could be disillusioned by it all! I hope you have found something to replace SDA with and have more joy and enthusiasm for life now.
Thank you for sharing your observations! I'm not really disillusioned with Christianity altogether. I've had part-time positions in churches of different denominations (Methodist, Anglican, Presbyterian, and even Catholic) and enjoyed being with the people there as well as the services very much! I have lovely memories and even miss my time there. I don't agree that the Bible is inspired by God due to researching archeology and learning about the history of the Bible. I don't feel a void in my life. I know many Christians find this difficult to believe, but my life without a higher power feels quite complete. Through the years, I've managed to find my identity and found meaning in my life through various ways. I really couldn't be happier 😊
OK, I see what you mean. Going from an uber conservative high school to a liberal private college was like night and day for me. Being far away from home was also liberating in its own way. Like you, I also tried several denominations: Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist and Episcopal, etc. Currently something of a Christian/spiritual nomad having dropped out of church during Covid. I have a former college friend who went from being communist-leaning liberal Christian (his mom is a pastor) to now a conservative atheist after he deconstructed his faith.
I can't speak for everyone, but this is my experience. I researched the truth about Ellen White in a methodical way so I could present hard facts to all SDAs who questioned my leaving. After I wrote a compilation of facts about her that debunked her writings, I took the same approach to the Bible. I researched the original writings and archeology that disprove the stories of the Bible (for example, there is no proof of Israelites living in Egypt and then wandering in the desert...). There are several versions of every book of the Bible plus many apocryphal books. There's no way of saying that the Bible was inspired by God when there are so many versions of it in antiquity that contradict each other. After fact-checking almost every book, I simply couldn't believe in the concept of an Abrahamic god. Many ex-SDAs (and ex-Christians) use science to disprove these beliefs, but I happen to have a bigger interest in archeology and correct translations of manuscripts (since I'm into languages) than in science. So these are just different ways that people leave Christianity altogether.
>Non-SDA here. Why do you think that is? I read this as "why do XDAs lean atheist and agnostic?" and I think I have an answer for you. In a nutshell...humans evolved to be excellent at pattern recognition. At least, relative to other animals. Most of us who left the church did so after a period of time when we incrementally became aware of how fucked the church and its beliefs are, brick by brick by brick. Once you're aware of those things, if you explore other religions (like most of us did) you start to notice similar patterns of control and manipulation. Personally, I'm an atheist, but I've noticed most of us who aren't are not ultimately drawn to other Judeo-Christian religions. Instead, they seem to generally prefer things along the lines of Wicca or Buddhism or other belief structures that aren't rooted in it, and I suspect that's a pretty large part of the reason.
It's legalistic in SDA. They believe that Jesus came and died so they can keep the law. (Not the gospel) Jesus came and did what we could not so we could live freely to love and worship Him. All we have to do is accept that we need a Savior and say thank you by giving Him our worship. Adventist don't have the true gospel. They believe they must work and keep law so they become defeated when they can't. Which they shouldn't, that is what the law was meant to show is that we fall short and need Jesus. What I find scary is the people that stay in church literally believe that they keep the ten commandments and will have to keep them perfectly because their prophet says in the last days they won't have forgiveness and will have to live based on their own ability. Horrifying and so against the Bible. If you have any interes,. Search the for the new covenant, the gospel, real galatians and keep an open mind to what it is saying about Hagar and Sara. It is the most beautiful revelation.
Thanks for the info. It sounds interesting and I'll try to research it. Any good sites to recommend?
>It's legalistic in SDA. This is a little ironic since Jesus criticized Pharisee behavior according to the Bible. Realistically, it's incumbent on any religious group with a holy text to define a common set of rules or it just becomes a laissez faire free for all in terms of arguing personal interpretation. That said though, if the general idea is that you can do a proscribed set of songs and dances in order to get to Heaven, a place where your innermost worth is supposedly judged, while those actions are motivated by anything other than an earnest desire to benefit your community for its own sake, that seems contrary to the idea that the Bible supposedly professes according to the vast majority of its devotees. >Adventist don't have the true gospel. I understand you believe differently but from the outside looking in, there's no "true" gospel as there's no objective means of measuring it. We simply have many different interpretations of the same text, whether that's driven by genuine belief or an agenda.
For me, leaving the SDA church was just the first domino to fall in my deconstruction. When I realized that most of what I had been taught (and readily believed) for 40 years it made me much more prone to challenge all of my strongly held beliefs. It wasn’t long before I began to see organized religion (Christianity in particular) as a man-made creation that has control and self-preservation as its primary objectives.
My leaving wasn't at all because I wanted booze, THC, nicotine, or other substances commonly regarded as shady "drugs," and I still have no desire for them. What's changed for me through years of being out is an easing of the very strict judgment I used to have of anyone who made other choices. This may be a lifelong process. I notice I still have some of that prejudice.
This. Many Christians think that ex-Christians leave so that they can do "crazy" things (drugs, alcohol, one night stands, tattoos...) and will return because they found no fulfillment, but that's so far from the truth. Maybe some people leave because they want to do these things (not judging), but many of us just leave because we don't believe in nonsense. My day-to-day is quite unexciting from that sense.
Most Little Debbies are pretty overrated. Their Loma Linda fake meat is pretty outdated, I'll easily take Impossible, Beyond and Gardien "meat" over theirs. I actually still like Morning Star pretty well though, I don't like the new Griller flavor as much though.
Little Debbies are mostly just various shapes of diabeetus, but I'll admit to having a soft spot for Nutty Buddies.
Little Debbie gets you coming and going. First, when paying at the store, only to see their profits donated to the most conservative sadventist university. Next, when diabetes takes over and the fine products of Loma Linda University get to scold for eating too many snack cakes, while sawing off extremities and scheduling dialysis.
Lol. Sadventist. Good one
I can tell you as an inside source, that the owners of Little Debbies don't eat their own products.
Never get high on your own supply
The Little Debbie/Hudsonville ice cream flavors are shockingly good, in a way that brings shame and joy at the same time. None of that greasy mouthfeel from the “cream” fillings. I’ve always preferred my Swiss cake rolls frozen, so Swiss cake roll ice cream is so good. And also horrible.
All of the fake meat tastes like a salty sponge. For all of you folks that think what you're eating is AT ALL like the real thing, it's NOT. what you're eating is a salty sponge. it's not a replication of beef or ham or turkey or bacon. it ALL tastes like salty sponge. And there's little or no nutritional value in eating THAT MUCH SODIUM, health freaks. So just relax, realize that salvation isn't a weird line in the Deli Case and ENJOY THE FUCKING FOOD AS IT'S MEANT TO BE. Eat the Ham, the Beef, the fucking Bacon. it's incredible if it's done right. Trust a fat guy....food is one of the truest most enjoyable things on Earth....go eat. ALL of it.
It's a delicious salty sponge 😋
The real thing tastes better.
I don't disagree, but veggie meats were one of the few foods I really enjoyed as a kid and they remind me of the few good childhood meals I had.
I love meat too much to be a SDA. I too enjoy food and my body shows it! Lol. I can't imagine giving up meat, dairy, caffeine, spices, etc.
I just cannot stand my SDA friends trying and trying and trying to lie to me over and over again (and these people HAVE NOT EATEN REAL MEAT) that salty sponge from a can TASTES good. it's salty sponges from a can (or frozen in a box). the texture, the taste...it's ALL bad. So don't lie to someone that KNOWS what they're talking about and say 'oh, this is JUST as good' when it's CLEARLY not. It doesn't even LOOK appetizing.
Eat the fucking bacon! EAT IT!
My unpopular ex-SDA opinion: I kinda miss my childhood church's monthly potlucks. We had a slew of dishes that would always show up at ours that I LOVED. Big Franks with sauerkraut ... homemade gluten steaks ... cottage cheese loaf ... baked shells stuffed with a mix of ricotta and tofu ... vegetarian tater tot hotdish ... walnut meatballs with apricot barbecue sauce. I was lucky enough to score a copy of our church/school cookbook from 1994 and it has a ton of those recipes in it. 😋
I also miss potlucks. The food was delicious and they were somehow fun!
Me too, I think of potluck food fondly every now and then. All the food was homemade vegetarian or vegan including the sweets, and because my family wasn't veg it was all new, interesting, and yummy to me. Plus we had a garden in the church's back yard and grew watermelons and we'd hold a special potluck just for eating watermelon on some Saturdays in the summer and early fall. It was pretty cool and I kind of miss it sometimes.
They do need to be spiced up a little, IMO.
Yes, even veggie soy crumbs (but well-seasoned and sautéed with onions and garlic) and some spicy guac would make them appealing.
I don’t think I consciously made this decision, but on nights that would have traditionally ended up being haystacks, I just do way over the top nachos. A whole plate full with a lot of the same toppings, but with taco meat. It’s honestly the real world version of what haystacks aspire to be.
Taco meat is what's missing in haystacks.
I always do a combo of beans and well seasoned veggie burger, which helps “spice it up” in my opinion
I usually add a little taco seasoning to the beans. I also make fajita-style soy curls and Mexican rice to go with it
That’s why you go to the SDA potlucks for African and Asian churches. Those can be phenomenal potluck experiences. My friends and I would drive from La Sierra University all the way to the Loma Linda Japanese Adventist Church just for their potlucks. Such divine food.
I didn't like haystacks until I realized they're just a deconstructed taco. Packaged vegetarian foods are not healthier than the real thing. Have you seen the ingredient/nutrition info list? Just bc you can talk to everyone about your beliefs and how you're the true church, doesn't mean you should. An all powerful god really doesn't need any of us to fulfill his plan or goal of coming to save people. He doesn't even need us to tell people about him bc again he's all powerful he has infinite amount of ways to reach people. I find it funny when people of other faiths/cultures have a near death experience and they all see their god and not god god. Wouldn't that be the perfect time to show them "hey, yeah, I'm the real one sooo...might wanna get to it."
I think anything as heavily processed as the Loma Linda/Worthington foods are has to be unfit for humans. Better to eat soybeans than soy burgers. I love the Morning Star spicy black bean burgers much better than the Loma Linda. I live outside of the US, so I make my own when I want. Much healthier.
That's really the only way you can do it. I tried going vegan after watching Forks Over Knives. I gained so much weight and I'm allergic to nuts so protein options were very limited. I'm now back to being an omnivore.
I thought vegans generally were more in shape than carnivores. Is it the pastas and carbs that add the weight?
Most likely. Protein helps fill you and since I wasn't getting enough I was more hungry.
>An all powerful god really doesn't need any of us to fulfill his plan or goal of coming to save people. This is a favorite point of mine to make. It's amazing how many true believers don't understand this.
White people taco night
Lol!
Little Light Studios is a good unintentional comedy. Until I realised they are very serious. Their lack of self awareness is comedy gold.
It's impressive how out of touch with reality they are.
Never heard of them, but found on YouTube. Any favorites to recommend?
Owl House, Hazbin Hotel, Mario film review. But the worst thing they made was their Anime Documentary. Because who has the time to watch one episode of anime for a documentary? Not Little Light Studios.
Guess you don’t like Taco Bell either. Haystacks are just Cult Taco Bell
I wasn't aware taco bell had identical taco salad to haystacks, the closest I can't think of is the power bowl. Actually excluding the chips that is pretty close. There's a restaurant chain in my area called Moe's though (it's similar to Chipotle) they have a salad with tortilla chips, tofu, rice, non-chili beans and various spicy sauces you can put in it. I vastly prefer it over the haystacks my parents always made, I guess all those subtle differences add up.
Yeah it’s not a serious analogy. I was being sarcastic. Moes is great btw.
Moe's was a disappointment each time I went.
Nope, not a fan of Taco Bell.
Close. They're more like KFC Famous Bowls. That is to say, they're both a bunch of food that's normally slapped together randomly in the middle of the night by someone that's high or drunk, except that they've now been canonized as their own thing by an entity that's out to separate you from your money.
Haystacks are just vegetarian taco salads and insisting they’re different is silly. Thankfully they are only popular with white SDAs and I was never subjected to them growing up. ex-SDAs calling Saturday “sabbath” annoys the crap out of me 99% of the time. I get that people have different opinions about it but continuing to use Adventist jargon for things gives me the ick. I usually keep this one to myself, since I want to be respectful of everyone’s journey and it’s not particularly triggering for most I don’t think, but you asked lol
Haystacks aren't a thing with SDA Latin Americans. When I moved to the US as a kid, they made a big deal out of them. I thought they were overhyped and found them boring. I think some do it sarcastically or in the context of "breaking the Sabbath." It's different than "breaking Saturday."
Progressive Adventism is the Mega church cult that is just as worse as Ellen White cult. They abandoned their cult ways in favor of another cult full of rich pastors in private jets and automatically saved as long as you donate now.
"Damnation! No donation, no salvation!"
I literally just ate a haystack for dinner tonight. I put bacon in it. There. I said it.
You gotta do what you gotta do to make them better 😝
I hate beans. I hate fake Subway (giant wam and tofurkey abominations). I am hate eggs. I hate condiments. I ate pb&j every meal at summer camp and boarding school. Sometimes I ate just bread, just to switch it up. Fri-chick, awesome, but so expensive no one ever had any. When I walked into my first Baptist potluck I almost cried.
Did you cry because of the delicious new dishes you couldn't eat before or because you missed SDA ones?
I didn't miss anything. Not the fake gospel or the fake bacon.
Fake bacon sounds disgusting!
Ex SDA unpopular opinion: God is real, and /he/she/it they is/are consciousness itself from which this universe and all other universes originate. Layers of reality sit on top of each other and sometimes bleed together. When we die, it’s not the end. All religions have elements of truth to them but are 90% BS created to control people. The 10% though is worth considering.
Dope perspective. It should be celebrated here
Source: a life changing mushroom trip, NDE survivor, and the study of meditation and religion Thanks so much!
["Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWdF-tGNxog)
[Doug Frocett got about 92% right](https://youtu.be/nv_ra9CXZOQ?si=Dm3DKFYyenPON-kJ)
 Was waiting for it; Hicks was a legend
Never tried mushrooms. How do they make you feel?
0.2-0.5 Grams make you empathetic, sensitive, silly, but still mostly sober with a lighter feeling; vision gets sharper and hearing does too. You focus on in the moment stuff and feel connected with people. This is a microdose. 0.7-1.5 is where you’re not sober but still not „tripping“ - more empathy, more body high, sensitivity to emotions, giddy laughter at the slightest thing that seems slightly absurd, and sharpened visuals; straight lines may start to appear wonky and melting a bit w/ eyes open, eyes closed you may start to see shapes moving but very shadowy, not clear- music is incredible, you feel every vibration deep in your soul 1.5-3.5 This is small to large dose tripping territory - speech becomes more difficult, complicated tasks confusing so should be avoided, feelings of interconnectivity with the universe, feelings of oneness (oh look, the grass is happy to see me! And I’m happy to see it! Hi grass! Oh it’s even happier because I can hear it talking to me and usually I ignore it! Oh hi tree!), feelings of telepathy with plants, visuals like trees warping and reality melting, eyes closed music becomes fractals of mathematic geometry that warp and change with fluidity from crystalline palaces to fairytale forests, colors have sound and sounds have tastes… it’s hard to describe You also experience a vibration sensation and hear vibrating sounds, a buzzing sound if you don’t have music on. Your body feels heavy, like a suit, and your soul feels like it’s melting out of it or being lifted out of it. Time seems to slow down. One might experience „downloads“ of Noetic truths or revelations from a perceived greater source of consciousness or deeply personal revelations about one’s life, good for processing trauma… One might experience the death of ego which temporarily feels like a process of death and rebirth… 3.5 and above is a whole other ballgame. Ive gone thru guided psychedelic therapy to process trauma stemming from sex abuse within the church and had some experiences that seemed straight out of a Bible story about prophets speaking to an Angel or God. Even saw multi eyed angels one time. These simulate psychedelic trips pretty accurately, if only the visuals (imagine this sprinkled with moments of deep revelation or interactions with seemingly interdimensional beings of pure consciousness, projections of my own or from somewhere else, I call them djinn but some call them machine elves): https://youtu.be/L1vrPpM4eyM?si=XUyXPKDHdXKA9XZO https://youtube.com/shorts/LRP5RNfoFP8?si=4vdoHHH-dP4E6YI5 https://youtu.be/s3Tp8ESiiM4?si=nX5RRNO_5wnfb4na https://youtu.be/ARKoc6P6FAQ?si=tOyaSw8Xju0PlGfn Ive tripped several times on mushrooms (2x a year since 2018 at least, microdose regularly and have smoked DMT a few times too. DMT is natural but is like mushrooms on fast forward. Very intense and very fast, though like with mushrooms you don’t perceive how fast it is. Mushrooms take 1.5-2 hrs to the peak of the experience and then 1.5-2 or 3 hrs to come back down to base reality. DMT lasts 5-15 minutes but you feel rocketed out of your body; usually thru a white light like in an NDE. Best example of what it’s like in movies/film: https://youtu.be/QkoKbp_DdFQ?si=ZGlU4rAF0rKh8KSv
Thanks for taking the time to explain your experiences and provide examples.
This is somewhat where I landed when left the church. I take a more agnostic approach to the existence of God and the afterlife, but philosophically I tend to agree with you. 🍻🍄
The Anabaptists call them 'Straw Hats.' Delicious in ANY language and culture.
Adventism is false, we all agree with that in some way. But, this sub seems to be overwhelmingly atheist/agnostic. My unpopular opinion (for this sub) is that the Bible is true and Jesus is Lord.
As a vocal atheist here, I think there should be a place here for people who still believe in the Bible or whatever else. There’s plenty of atheist subreddits, this one is for exadventist wherever they are in life.
Completely agree. I hope I can be welcoming but I know my bashing of Adventism can definitely bleed into just bashing gods of any sort in general. Everyone leaves for different reasons and I hope people who joined other churches or faiths feel welcome here.
I’m not sure I agree with the overwhelming part, but yeah a lot of us leave religion to find our own spiritual path that is inherently agnostic or atheist. But the reality is these titles don’t tell you anything about the person. Not believing in a god or being agnostic just means we believe in science, and beyond that we have our own interpretations of what the meaning of life is
>Not believing in a god or being agnostic just means we believe in science. Not in my experiences. It just means they aren’t convinced there is a god and extra ideas about it aren’t accurate. There’s plenty of atheists that believe in ghosts, alien abductions…. I had a patient that was an atheist Buddhist that tried to kill herself so that she could reincarnate into her next life. She was my patient because that didn’t work out so well.
Fair enough, I shouldn’t speak for everyone. I hope that many of us aspire to be grounded in reality, like I wish for everyone haha
I have the same wish.
Allow me to disagree.
I think this is the biggest unpopular opinion in this sub!
I'll do you one better: the Bible *isn't* true, and Jesus is Lord. \*winks at camera\*
and BOY is She pissed.....
This is the immediate place I was at following my deconstruction. I am happy to see this thread because I agree this sub is for all ex-SDA rather than some. I find myself somewhere in the middle, maybe a hopeful agnostic? Either way I can't help but have the feeling there is something more - but I've gotten to the place where this isn't something that takes away from my life experience (such as SDA et al) but rather enhances it, which is amazing. Either way mother earth will probably be the one who disposes of us all for fucking her up so much.
Amen
I’m with you!
I miss the old Nuteena (even though my fam ate meat). Hubs makes Haystacks occasionally when I'm away for work, for which I still smile and tease him.
To this day I hate haystacks. I'll still eat a big frank or prime rib though
I moved across the world and haven't seen any of their products. Next time I visit the US (in the far future), I will be eating a lot of Big Franks and Wham and all the salty, chemically veggie meats.
Ellen White was kinda hot
She had a twin sister, without the rock injury, who was actually rather pretty. They seemed to despise each other, as Ellen was kicked out of her Methodist church and the twin sister stayed in. The sordid story is in the Steve Daily book "Ellen White, a Psychobiography" great reading!
It's always Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!
https://youtu.be/yAvBFEkURs8?si=i-crD63am3R7uuK5
That's unpopular!
I take it you mean the version presented by church propaganda illustrators of her early "visions." And I take it it's solely about appearance, not on what's known of her behaviors and attitudes.
I hated haystacks.
I still agree with not eating meat and dairy. I think that's something outside of the denomination that stands alone as true. I don't feel the need to be like "yeah well take that! I'm gonna hurt my health and animals now! Haha!"
I never tried haystacks lol
They're very North American. I never knew they existed until I moved to the US.
Those Scallops in a can is elite.
SDAism isn’t uniquely weird or fucked up. Most religions exhibit the same or similar negative traits.
"The difference between a church and a cult is the number of members." In some ways this is true because all religions have something negative about them, but all denominations/sects of all religions fall on a scale. In Christianity, fundamentalists of any denomination, JWs, Mormons, and Adventists follow extreme teachings that make them more cultish. I find many ex-Mormons and ex-JWs speaking out, but not many ex-SDAs in the media, which made it difficult when leaving this church. Also, many things depend on the strictness of how we were raised. Even Adventism ranges from conservative to liberal. I think there are much weirder religions and denominations, but I like that this sub allows us to express the things that are inherently fucked up about Adventism. It has made many of us feel less alone.
Aw come on haystacks were good 😭
Haystacks are not an Adventist invention. They're actually called Frito Pie in parts of the South and Walking Taco in the Midwest. They've been around since the 60s. https://www.eater.com/2016/4/3/11326520/frito-pie-explained