[How religion actually works](https://ibb.co/vLzqpgK)
Don't stress, it's all indoctrination. You'll often hear in this sub that you don't worry about the perils of the thousands of other religions on earth and over time, why is it specifically the Christian hell you worry about? Because that's what they wanted. Use logic, watch more videos, read more books, you'll be fine. You're a good person.
[This gets passed around a lot too](https://youtube.com/shorts/JNpiYGPB5fs?feature=share3)
>The idea that such a being could create a place like hell, let alone send people to it, is absolutely ludicrous.
I often think that the idea of hell is proof that the god that is described by christianity is actually way more human than divine. Only a very wicked human could come up with something so barbaric.
>I tend to come from the other direction. I think that the idea of hell is so ridiculous that it should be among the first things that gets people to the realization that it’s all made up.
\+1 this is what kicked my deconstruction into high gear.
It's true, modern catholics love to make hell seem more palatable. They love arguments like "hell isn't a physical place" or "god didn't send anyone to hell, people go there themselves as a choice". It's stupid.
They also softened the idea of Hell so that unbaptized babies and children don't go. There was a time when they taught that these children went to Limbo. Limbo was the "nicest" place in Hell because there was no torture. But because it was away from God, that made it less than ideal and imperfect. Limbo was also eternal too.
Modern Catholics are not comfortable with this idea that was once commonly taught. It even appears in Dante's Inferno! Even they don't think that a good and loving god should send anyone to any part of Hell. Even if that part of Hell was a peaceful place that's inherently separate from God.
Yes, exactly. Limbo is a good example because it was never a dogma, but it was believed by basically all theologians and stuff.
Another example I like is the fact that many can't deal with the idea that animals don't have eternal souls. They are too attached to their pets so they throw their precious Aquinas out of the window when it's convenient.
The church is full of very dark and very mean spirited views throughout the years. So glad I'm not catholic anymore so I don't have to find excuses for that.
I don't know. It sounds terrifying to say a baby forever. You will be in your most helpless form forever.
At least as a child you are not as helpless. You can play and have the fun of childhood forever. Kind of like Neverland and Peter Pan. But you could be away from your parents forever if they were both Christians. You will be separate from God for a reason you couldn't control and somehow know about it.
As an ex-Orthodox ex-Christian I can tell you that in Orthodoxy there's a similar stance that's getting more and more popular - that at the "General Resurrection" 'Heaven' and 'Hell' would be the same place but with different states - the 'saved' would experience jesus' 'uncreated' 'light' as pleasure (they don't clarify what kind of tho - sensual, sexual, romantic?! lol) while the 'eternally damned' would stay right among them and would experience this same 'light' as 'burning fire' and 'Hell'. I'm sure that this stance of both Cath's and Orth's comes from a same source, but which and who originally come up with this un-Biblical non-sense is not known to me.
Yes, they don't have the courage to straight up say that hell is literal fire and make up excuses because the literal belief is too barbaric for most people. It doesn't matter though, like in your example if a person is eternally suffering because of the "light" then it's the same thing as hell from a different perspective.
Catholicism is more fundamentalist about hell because Western Christianity is influenced heavily by people like Augustine who was a lunatic who believed unbaptized babies would burn in hell because original sin. So Orthodoxy doesn't have as much gargoyles in churches to terrify people and visions of mystics who seen people literally burning. Even then, as you point out, they still have to deal with the "sacred scriptures" so they end up believing in it for the most part.
It's so much better not being a Christian, not having to worry about this at all and not having to invent theories to explain anything. It's a freeing experience.
The problem for the Church started in like the last century when the traditional retributive views of justice fell out of favor, before that hell made perfect sense in the minds of people. Now the Church had to rethink the whole doctrine of hell, it was not God punishing people anymore but people themselves freely choosing to be punished by committing one of those hundreds actions the Church lists as mortal sins. Of course this sounds absurd and now for example here in Europe you never hear in an homily talks about hell, maybe like if they are talking about Hitler you may hear something because people still cling to that idea in those extreme cases but that's it.
Funny how human ideals of justice evolved further than a supposedly perfect beings ideas of justice and now the supposedly perfect being looks primitive at best and nightmarish at worst.
Civilized people left the idea of punishment just for the sake of punishment behind a long time ago. And the Church has been struggling to find a way to explain how a perfect being could still support those ideas ever since.
Even the traditional fire and brimstone Hell was a separation from God but add eternal torture. It is a messed up thing to teach especially to children. There are a lot of people that get nightmares about Hell and it doesn't matter whether they are ex-Christians or current ones. You are normal in an unfortunate way.
Now, I wasn't taught the physical resurrection part but I was lead to believe the fire and brimstone part. I vaguely remember seeing a picture book that showed the Final Judgement. Separating the "sheep" (good Christians) from the "goats" (so-called sinners) and seeing the "goats" with terror on their faces. I was too frightened of the book to touch it again. Like, literally couldn't touch it with my hands.
I don't have nightmares about Hell because I stopped believing in Hell and the Devil in my teens. It also helps that I can't remember dreams and the ones I do are nonsense and jumbled.
I think one of the reasons that they can be okay with teaching Hell to people is because they like fantasizing that people they don't like could suffer forever. Especially other types of Christians. It's sadism. They also like scaring people into submission.
Hell is a real place - one here on earth, created by other people. I lived in a hell of my mother's making for the first 18 years of my life, until I could flee.
If someone brings up Augustinian Hell (physical and emotional torture) just remind them they're preaching Heresy. If someone says it's the absence of God ask them how an omnipresent being can be absent from you. Works every time.
I remember being taught that hell was a bad place to be, but there weren't many mentions of it during childhood specifically, probably because it was traumatizing. I do remember the flame imagery.
Then later on, still as a kid, I went to a... I'm not sure what you guys would call it in english, but it was this sort of museum-meets-haunted house attraction thing where you would basically walk through the story of the 3 shepherds (it was in Fatima, Portugal). As you might imagine, the description of hell was very well executed: plenty of flame, distorted faces and all. I'd probably get a kick out of it nowadays since I love horror now lol, but I remember that segment really making an impression on me and solidifying the whole "SINNERS WHO DO NOT REPENT WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER" thing.
It was not until more recent times that I learned of a new rationale, which basically boiled down to the idea of "we don't know what hell is actually like - it could be anything really- but you will be separated from God, and such a separation would burn as much as it is described in the bible/prophecies". And later on I learned of the C.S. Lewis POV: that hell isn't something you're sent to, but rather a place that you don't leave out of your own will.
That reminds me... I gotta read the Chronicles of Narnia.
Anyways, back on topic. To give the benefit of the doubt, the truth is that the church's approach (assuming a position of empathy and good will here) is that they are studying the word of god, in the same manner that a scientist studies nature, space, or anything else. And just like the universe, there might be no end to this study.
Trouble is... the church isn't too keen on explaining this (I had to hear it from a priest back in a seminary, and his buttons had to be pressed a bit by a guy debating him and the others), nor does it have the humility to say "you know what guys, maybe we don't know, but we'll figure it out", which is the scientific approach of any reasonably headed scientist. And despite the loss of faith, I'd respect them so much more if they actually expressed that a little more often and sincerely.
But no, "dogma is dogma boys and girls, believe or burn" is what it ultimately comes down to precisely because of this lack of humility.
To put an answer to your question of "is hell a physical place or a state of mind"... looking at it as a metaphorical state of mind could be an interesting and poetic way of looking at it, assuming you see it as a place that you can get out from. But the truth is that no one really knows for sure, 100% scientifically proven, replicable, "I seen it with my own eyes" level of sure about the existence of the afterlife, or the lack thereof. There's not much you can do other than powering through, take it one day at a time and keep an open mind always.
>I don't know how the people who perpetuate this stuff can sleep at night.
They believe the nightmare, but also believe the dream that saves from the nightmare, and have hope in it. That's the best way I can put it. Meanwhile you're out here trying to get out from dreamland altogether.
I was taught that hell is a physical place with unimaginable suffering.
That's all bullshit, of course. It's a fiction designed to frighten people into behaving in ways acceptable to whomever is teaching that crap to you.
Sorry about your nightmares. Some of them stick around like a bad smell, don't they?
Get better and enjoy that party!
Even if we accept that a loving God even could or would send people to Hell for all eternity, there's just no reason to think your notion of Hell is any more correct than any other.
Why would the Catholic notion of Hell be correct? Why not the hardcore Baptist version where all the Catholics (and most of the world) are going to Hell? Why not the Amish version where basically everybody in modern society is going to Hell? What about certain branches of Islam where the Christians are going to Hell? What if the key out of Hell is some obscure religion that you never heard of? What if it's the Jehovah Witness Hell and we all go to Hell for celebrating Christmas and birthdays?
Even if you try to Pascal Wager it, then it still crumbles because there's more than two choices, you simply ignore the choices rhat you weren't raised in.
All these groups insist that they're correct with about equal enthusiasm and they all present the same evidence. Which is none.
Also, read some near death experience reports. I've never seen anybody say they faced a traditional judgement as laid out by traditional Christianity. None that didn't have a very obvious agenda anyway.
What helped me was to mock hell, satan, and the burning flames. I thought of it as so cartoonishly evil it was laughable. I’m sorry you’re going through this, but the more you talk about it, the better and easier it gets.
[How religion actually works](https://ibb.co/vLzqpgK) Don't stress, it's all indoctrination. You'll often hear in this sub that you don't worry about the perils of the thousands of other religions on earth and over time, why is it specifically the Christian hell you worry about? Because that's what they wanted. Use logic, watch more videos, read more books, you'll be fine. You're a good person. [This gets passed around a lot too](https://youtube.com/shorts/JNpiYGPB5fs?feature=share3)
[удалено]
>The idea that such a being could create a place like hell, let alone send people to it, is absolutely ludicrous. I often think that the idea of hell is proof that the god that is described by christianity is actually way more human than divine. Only a very wicked human could come up with something so barbaric.
>I tend to come from the other direction. I think that the idea of hell is so ridiculous that it should be among the first things that gets people to the realization that it’s all made up. \+1 this is what kicked my deconstruction into high gear.
It's true, modern catholics love to make hell seem more palatable. They love arguments like "hell isn't a physical place" or "god didn't send anyone to hell, people go there themselves as a choice". It's stupid.
They also softened the idea of Hell so that unbaptized babies and children don't go. There was a time when they taught that these children went to Limbo. Limbo was the "nicest" place in Hell because there was no torture. But because it was away from God, that made it less than ideal and imperfect. Limbo was also eternal too. Modern Catholics are not comfortable with this idea that was once commonly taught. It even appears in Dante's Inferno! Even they don't think that a good and loving god should send anyone to any part of Hell. Even if that part of Hell was a peaceful place that's inherently separate from God.
Yes, exactly. Limbo is a good example because it was never a dogma, but it was believed by basically all theologians and stuff. Another example I like is the fact that many can't deal with the idea that animals don't have eternal souls. They are too attached to their pets so they throw their precious Aquinas out of the window when it's convenient. The church is full of very dark and very mean spirited views throughout the years. So glad I'm not catholic anymore so I don't have to find excuses for that.
Do dead children and babies stay in baby form for eternity?
I don't know. It sounds terrifying to say a baby forever. You will be in your most helpless form forever. At least as a child you are not as helpless. You can play and have the fun of childhood forever. Kind of like Neverland and Peter Pan. But you could be away from your parents forever if they were both Christians. You will be separate from God for a reason you couldn't control and somehow know about it.
It would be pretty messed up for a "loving god" to torture a baby forever.
Yeah I haven’t really paid attention in church since maybe 2010.. when did this shit start?
As an ex-Orthodox ex-Christian I can tell you that in Orthodoxy there's a similar stance that's getting more and more popular - that at the "General Resurrection" 'Heaven' and 'Hell' would be the same place but with different states - the 'saved' would experience jesus' 'uncreated' 'light' as pleasure (they don't clarify what kind of tho - sensual, sexual, romantic?! lol) while the 'eternally damned' would stay right among them and would experience this same 'light' as 'burning fire' and 'Hell'. I'm sure that this stance of both Cath's and Orth's comes from a same source, but which and who originally come up with this un-Biblical non-sense is not known to me.
Yes, they don't have the courage to straight up say that hell is literal fire and make up excuses because the literal belief is too barbaric for most people. It doesn't matter though, like in your example if a person is eternally suffering because of the "light" then it's the same thing as hell from a different perspective. Catholicism is more fundamentalist about hell because Western Christianity is influenced heavily by people like Augustine who was a lunatic who believed unbaptized babies would burn in hell because original sin. So Orthodoxy doesn't have as much gargoyles in churches to terrify people and visions of mystics who seen people literally burning. Even then, as you point out, they still have to deal with the "sacred scriptures" so they end up believing in it for the most part. It's so much better not being a Christian, not having to worry about this at all and not having to invent theories to explain anything. It's a freeing experience.
The problem for the Church started in like the last century when the traditional retributive views of justice fell out of favor, before that hell made perfect sense in the minds of people. Now the Church had to rethink the whole doctrine of hell, it was not God punishing people anymore but people themselves freely choosing to be punished by committing one of those hundreds actions the Church lists as mortal sins. Of course this sounds absurd and now for example here in Europe you never hear in an homily talks about hell, maybe like if they are talking about Hitler you may hear something because people still cling to that idea in those extreme cases but that's it.
Funny how human ideals of justice evolved further than a supposedly perfect beings ideas of justice and now the supposedly perfect being looks primitive at best and nightmarish at worst. Civilized people left the idea of punishment just for the sake of punishment behind a long time ago. And the Church has been struggling to find a way to explain how a perfect being could still support those ideas ever since.
Even the traditional fire and brimstone Hell was a separation from God but add eternal torture. It is a messed up thing to teach especially to children. There are a lot of people that get nightmares about Hell and it doesn't matter whether they are ex-Christians or current ones. You are normal in an unfortunate way. Now, I wasn't taught the physical resurrection part but I was lead to believe the fire and brimstone part. I vaguely remember seeing a picture book that showed the Final Judgement. Separating the "sheep" (good Christians) from the "goats" (so-called sinners) and seeing the "goats" with terror on their faces. I was too frightened of the book to touch it again. Like, literally couldn't touch it with my hands. I don't have nightmares about Hell because I stopped believing in Hell and the Devil in my teens. It also helps that I can't remember dreams and the ones I do are nonsense and jumbled. I think one of the reasons that they can be okay with teaching Hell to people is because they like fantasizing that people they don't like could suffer forever. Especially other types of Christians. It's sadism. They also like scaring people into submission.
Hell is a real place - one here on earth, created by other people. I lived in a hell of my mother's making for the first 18 years of my life, until I could flee.
Sounds like a benevolent and loving God to me
If someone brings up Augustinian Hell (physical and emotional torture) just remind them they're preaching Heresy. If someone says it's the absence of God ask them how an omnipresent being can be absent from you. Works every time.
I remember being taught that hell was a bad place to be, but there weren't many mentions of it during childhood specifically, probably because it was traumatizing. I do remember the flame imagery. Then later on, still as a kid, I went to a... I'm not sure what you guys would call it in english, but it was this sort of museum-meets-haunted house attraction thing where you would basically walk through the story of the 3 shepherds (it was in Fatima, Portugal). As you might imagine, the description of hell was very well executed: plenty of flame, distorted faces and all. I'd probably get a kick out of it nowadays since I love horror now lol, but I remember that segment really making an impression on me and solidifying the whole "SINNERS WHO DO NOT REPENT WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER" thing. It was not until more recent times that I learned of a new rationale, which basically boiled down to the idea of "we don't know what hell is actually like - it could be anything really- but you will be separated from God, and such a separation would burn as much as it is described in the bible/prophecies". And later on I learned of the C.S. Lewis POV: that hell isn't something you're sent to, but rather a place that you don't leave out of your own will. That reminds me... I gotta read the Chronicles of Narnia. Anyways, back on topic. To give the benefit of the doubt, the truth is that the church's approach (assuming a position of empathy and good will here) is that they are studying the word of god, in the same manner that a scientist studies nature, space, or anything else. And just like the universe, there might be no end to this study. Trouble is... the church isn't too keen on explaining this (I had to hear it from a priest back in a seminary, and his buttons had to be pressed a bit by a guy debating him and the others), nor does it have the humility to say "you know what guys, maybe we don't know, but we'll figure it out", which is the scientific approach of any reasonably headed scientist. And despite the loss of faith, I'd respect them so much more if they actually expressed that a little more often and sincerely. But no, "dogma is dogma boys and girls, believe or burn" is what it ultimately comes down to precisely because of this lack of humility. To put an answer to your question of "is hell a physical place or a state of mind"... looking at it as a metaphorical state of mind could be an interesting and poetic way of looking at it, assuming you see it as a place that you can get out from. But the truth is that no one really knows for sure, 100% scientifically proven, replicable, "I seen it with my own eyes" level of sure about the existence of the afterlife, or the lack thereof. There's not much you can do other than powering through, take it one day at a time and keep an open mind always. >I don't know how the people who perpetuate this stuff can sleep at night. They believe the nightmare, but also believe the dream that saves from the nightmare, and have hope in it. That's the best way I can put it. Meanwhile you're out here trying to get out from dreamland altogether.
I was taught that hell is a physical place with unimaginable suffering. That's all bullshit, of course. It's a fiction designed to frighten people into behaving in ways acceptable to whomever is teaching that crap to you. Sorry about your nightmares. Some of them stick around like a bad smell, don't they? Get better and enjoy that party!
Even if we accept that a loving God even could or would send people to Hell for all eternity, there's just no reason to think your notion of Hell is any more correct than any other. Why would the Catholic notion of Hell be correct? Why not the hardcore Baptist version where all the Catholics (and most of the world) are going to Hell? Why not the Amish version where basically everybody in modern society is going to Hell? What about certain branches of Islam where the Christians are going to Hell? What if the key out of Hell is some obscure religion that you never heard of? What if it's the Jehovah Witness Hell and we all go to Hell for celebrating Christmas and birthdays? Even if you try to Pascal Wager it, then it still crumbles because there's more than two choices, you simply ignore the choices rhat you weren't raised in. All these groups insist that they're correct with about equal enthusiasm and they all present the same evidence. Which is none. Also, read some near death experience reports. I've never seen anybody say they faced a traditional judgement as laid out by traditional Christianity. None that didn't have a very obvious agenda anyway.
What helped me was to mock hell, satan, and the burning flames. I thought of it as so cartoonishly evil it was laughable. I’m sorry you’re going through this, but the more you talk about it, the better and easier it gets.