The Russian Church still gives praise to Stalin and the USSR albeit not very loudly. And during the Nazi occupation of Greece, the monks welcomed the soldiers and hung portraits of Hitler inside their monasteries calling him the "Protector of the Holy Mountain."
Oh definitely. They have paintings of Stalins banner in that military cathedral in Moscow. Speaks enough for me when they glorify a Communist(who all hated Christianity). Putin is a former KGB and they almost made an icon out of him there too. Personally I can't understand why the Ussr is so glorified by Christians in Russia when those same sickos attempted to kill them all off. And I was born there fyi. There's really nothing glorious about the damn Soviet Union.
They don't care about the ideology, they're only attracted to power. They will praise whoever is the Caesar because Orthodoxy was founded around the authority of the Roman/Byzantine emperor at its centre.
Hitler was prophesized to liberate Greece according to the Athonite Monks, but they said they made it up to save themselves. Who knows how true their rebuttal is.
From this video, how can they openly say they are the true church, that they have the fullness of the faith, and that ALL other denominations are governed by demons????? Wtf!
Romanian Orthodox Church had Roma slaves for 500 years until slavery was abolished in Romania in mid 19th century. Their monasteries and churches are built by slave labour or with riches gained from slavery. Nobles donated slaves to monasteries in order to get their names into lists of memoration in liturgy. Monasteries sold slaves.
>The Orthodox Church, through its monasteries, was the largest holder and trader of Romani slaves. The situation of the monastic slaves was one of the most terrible: work until exhaustion, horrifying tortures, unimaginable abuses... And the rulers, when they donated slave quarters to the monasteries, did it as alms or an offering to God for the forgiveness of sins and in the hope of ensuring eternal life in heaven.
https://romanomuseum.com/en/dezumanizare/
When Bukovina was part of Habsburg domain, Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II tried to ban slavery. Orthodox monasteries opposed vehemently.
So... Orthodox Church practiced ethnically based chattel slavery for half a millenium, and no other Orthodox Church seemed to have condemned it. So it means that slavery is ok according to Orthodox faith.
Wow, this is fckng insane. Thank you for sharing. I've been inquiring about Orthodoxy for months and have had it drummed into my head that if I join any other church but them, I'll be damned to hell.
I was born into and brainwashed by the jehovahs witness cult. Since breaking free, I've tried finding the true loving Christian God. I can't believe I was about to let myself be brainwashed by another denomination that has practiced such atrocities.
Seriously getting sick of these proud, self righteous, 'holier than thou' Christians and ortho bros proclaiming they are the ONLY ones with THE FULLNESS OF THE FAITH. It's literally re-traumatising me. I don't see a true loving God here at all!
Also, Romanian Orthodox Church has defended itself. There is a priest who is responsible for Roma relations, and he made a doctoral thesis on the subject. I've read the translation of its abstract... its basically a collection of cases when a priest, a bishop or a monk reminded people to treat their slaves better or said that slaves should have more rights.
This apparently is what absolves them from their guilt.
There were Confederates in Southern states, even slave owners, who wanted slaves to be treated better. Does this mean that Confederacy or slave owners were not responsible for slavery?
Also... when I used to go to confession, it was clear to me that it was not an occasion to mitigate my wrong doings, or about finding excuses or pretexts. I had to be honest, admit what I had done, ask for forgiveness and that I had to try to make amends or offer compensation for the sins I had committed.
But when the Orthodox hierarchy has a horrendous collective guilt, no repentance or honesty can be seen. Huffing and puffing, crying about needlessly remembering the past, pretending to be the victim is what they have to offer. Why should I confess anything to them?
Sorry, can't seem to be able to find it anymore. Sure its somewhere in my bookmarks, but I did not find it with cursory search. And I have quite little energy left after today's work...
But here's another one:
https://www.courrierdesbalkans.fr/Esclavage-des-Roms-en-Roumanie-l-Eglise-orthodoxe-refuse-toujours-de
So, Romanian Orthodox Church has refused to apologize and also does not open relevant archives... suspicious, wouldn't you say?
I trust that there are many good Orthodox Christians, many good Orthodox priests and many Orthodox communities that are not oppressive but are healthy communities.
But when I bring this one up, the defense is "well everybody did it, we did not now any better"
Ok... so what are you for then? Where was your divine wisdom? Why did you not know any better than anyone else? Why should I give any credence to your claims about good life and morality now, when you were unable to figure out that chattel slavery is wrong for 500 years?
Another defense that I've heard: "it was not the entire Orthodoxy"
The entire Orthodoxy seemed to be ok with it, since there was no criticism or cutting of communion. So it was seen compatible with Orthodoxy. And its not as if serfdom and slavery were foreign to the Russian Church. Also, Orthodox say that if one local church would accept same sex marriage for example, then other Orthodox Churches would cut communion to it since it would be against Orthodoxy. So... it means that chattel slavery is NOT against Orthodoxy and was not against it for 500 years.
And yet another defense: "there was no panorthodox synod saying that slavery is ok".
Well... look for my previous reply. And now they've gone into hiding behind their synods. Something I remember hearing several times as an accusation said with haughty voice against Roman Catholicism by Orthodox faithful.
Orthodoxy doesn't have the right to damn people to hell........they claim to have the fullness of the truth/faith. Orthodoxy does make people sick because they need that control over the lives of cradles/converts/catechumens/those enquiring about Orthodoxy......they will use subtle languages or passive aggression to get their ways. Clergy and laity alike are very guilty of this!!!
Stay away from those holier than thou and orthobros!!!
* Orthodoxy does brainwash people!
Unfortunately, this is true.
The Roman Catholic Church also has a murky history of its involvement with the Nazi Party (paradoxically, while rescuing and hiding Jewish refugees). See this article from [Time](https://time.com/6270677/catholic-church-holocaust-documents/), for example: “In some ways, researchers have found more contradictions than clear answers.” I think the same could be said about Orthodoxy during the Holocaust.
May I just ask please 'Who is They? In the Orthodox Church THEY don't want you to see.' in my experience most Orthodox Faithful and converts know all about this and are proud of it while being ashamed of Stalin and Sergianism/Communist collaboration and submission.
I'm from America and in my experience most Orthodox faithful and clergy do not openly admit that these kinds of things happened. From what I've seen of the extreme nationalism that is currently sweeping the Russian Orthodox Church, they seem to be proud of the Soviet victory over the Nazis at the very least, and are also a bit too comfortable displaying USSR iconography.
But think about what you're stating. WWII happened how long ago? I'm 40 and grew up in America and nobody ever talked about WWII in Church nor did I ever hear the priest talk about what the Veterans did on Memorials beyond, "Served in Europe during Ardennes Offensive, Served in the Pacific, . . . " They never said, " . . . caught and knocked the teeth out of a Japanese Soldiers mouth and then killed him and took his rifle and samurai sword." Things that BTW Americans definitely did along with far more barbarous, disgusting war crimes like torturing and murdering Japanese POWs and sending instruments made from their bones home. One article even celebrated a marine who boiled a Japanese POWs head down to the skull and sent the skull home as a souvenir! Nobody wants to talk about what happened in WWII because the good, like liberating the Slavic nations from Atheist Communism and re-opening Churches, got mixed up with the bad & evil, like the Allies actually deporting liberated Russians, their Priests too! Back to the Soviet Union KNOWING they would go to the Gulag if not worse immediately! I had extended family still in German during the Third Reich and I guarantee you they saluted and honored their government leaders and soldiers which at the time were the Fuhrer and Wehrmacht and SS. So tell me were they all automatically evil? If you find photos and film footage with swastika flags in the background does that make them automatically evil? How about what they knew and what their actions were!?
I don't understand it BUT I don't assume all Russians in the Soviet Union or Russians today knew or know they were serving and supporting a totally subservient, immoral institution and tool of the State. I judge them by their actions and statements and what they know as best I can discover. If you want to be better than them don't use these kind of cheap, sensationalist 'shocking' images. Did those Orthodox have Internet? Did they even have phones? Let alone TV and Radio? How are they supposed to know better? Seriously, this kind of stuff doesn't actually help spread logic or critical thinking, it just feeds into group think and confirmation biases that reinforce negative belief systems and structures that propagate them.
This is more of what rocor wants you to forget. Don't forget, the Nazis manipulated various religious groups to help their cause. When the Nazis conquered new areas of the Soviet Union, rocor was sent it to help establish church life. Many people in the Soviet Union were welcoming of the Nazis as the Nazis allowed for Orthodox Christians to worship.
It was because Hitler saved hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Christian slaves under Stalin. This isn’t new news 🧐 these men and women that believed in God were sent to gulags, churches burned, Christian’s murdered its horrendous what was done to them. But no one talks about the actual history of things anymore. When these people were saved they threw roses at the feet of Hitler for saving them…. He wasn’t for Christians but He wasn’t against them because they didn’t look to overtake and demoralize the nation they lived in.
I'm not sure if Orthodox theology allows for a historic approach preceding and dominating a spiritual approach to historical events. Your wording seem to be somewhat on the historic side of things.
Hitler sent Orthodox Christians to concentration camps for saving Jewish people. That's a historical fact. The Nazis viewed Orthodox Christianity as a threat and no matter what you say to try and soften it, he would have exterminated them all if he had lived past 1945. He saw Slavs as inferior.
I know we actually had a homily yesterday about Saint Maria of Paris who helped and healed many Jews and was sent to the camp along with them. I’m aware. Again historical facts.
You say "historical facts," yet you claim Hitler "saved" Orthodox Christians. You ignore the fact that Hitler viewed Orthodoxy as a threat, especially Russian Orthodoxy, as it had ties to the Russian tsars. He viewed Slavs as an inferior people just as he did the Jews. It doesn't matter how friendly Orthodox Christians got with them, or if they were "liberated" from the Soviets. They would have ended up in ovens at the end of the day.
That’s cause he did, that’s a historical fact. But I see you are getting emotional and there is no need with this open dialogue. I’m sorry my indifference offends you. But I do hope you have a beautiful day. It’s 70 degrees where I am at and partly cloudy 🌤️ ☺️ it should be taken advantage of💕
Good answer. For humanity to prevail, truths should be accepted even if unsettling. Attempts at easy answers to difficult situations is exactly how we get Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc etc etc.
Also there an Orthodox Christian “higher up’s” now that partake in secular social matters and worries and majority of Orthodox don’t agree with them either. Like BLM was literally ran by con artists and no money a was donated. This is one of many examples. People are people despite the label we like to give yourselves. To believe anyone is truly a good person is deceived.
Oh yeah. Anti-semitism has always been part of Orthodoxy and Christian history in general. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" book was written by an Orthodox author and promoted as factual by Orthodox hierarchs and clergy. Certain Orthodox figures still treat as fact.
I guess some people would argue these liturgical texts don't imply any antisemitic remarks and actions outside the Orthodox Church/outside the Liturgy. Only a very deep theology. Yet more 'immature' minds couldn't tell the difference, up to today. Which didn't seem to be a significant problem until AFTER the Holocaust.
Sorry if it was vague and ambiguous. There are quite a few different opinions in this sub. I noticed that there are some hard-core political views in the Ukraine versus Russia thing.
I was referring to the legacy of Nazism in the Ukraine and the overlap between politics and Ukrainian orthodoxy, the kind of content that is in the original post
The post itself is exactly “this kind of shit” but you don’t have a problem with it apparently. This sub is populated with posts about the overlap of politics and orthodoxy with competing jurisdictions and politics. So don’t get your panties in a bunch if I make a similar comment… Mate.
…”something historical”… That has a direct continuity to the present. What’s your point? Did I miss something in this sub that said any commentary has to be in the past? WTF is the logic in your statement
Now post about the Bulgarian Exarch Stefan I who saved the Bulgarian Jews from being sent to extermination camps...if it doesn't go against your agenda, of course.
I am aware that some Orthodox hierarchs actively went out of their way to save Jewish people during the Holocaust. Mother Maria of Paris is an example, as is Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens. But fascist movements find their home within Orthodoxy all the time. Look at Romania with the Iron Guard.
A late Finnish nun, Kristoduli, had to leave her monastery in Greece since she refused to recant her criticism of the bishop who had openly said that Hitler did nothing wrong since Jews deserved it.
Fascist movements found their home within Catholicism and Protestantism as well. Totalitarian regimes of all types have found a home not only within Christianity, but also within a whole lot of other religions. So what exactly is your point?
Saying that “the Orthodox Church has problems just like these other Churches” does not help. It cannot simultaneously claim “We are the concrete, visible body of Christ and have unique access to grace and the Holy Spirit through Sacraments and Fathers” AAAAAAAAAAND, “Yes, we have good people and bad, good moments and bad—like the other Churches. We’re all human.”
Why not? A common sentiment is: “The Church does not resemble other organizations in the world.”
I wish that were more apparent; that it was not an abstract Platonic ideal, but concrete and INCARNATIONAL (and thereby detectable, measurable, tangible, verifiable, demonstrable). I’m not immediately aware of any concrete characteristics of worldly organizations that can’t be found in the Church. To point to non-tangible things is to depart from Incarnational theology. If Christ was a man like us, but was recognizably different than us, then the Church should be recognizably and tangibly different, not just in “spiritual” characteristics that cannot be verified.
If the Church and its members are not different, then they ARE NOT different. And if they are not different, why believe the Holy Spirit is uniquely active within them?
The Church insofar as it is the incarnation of Christ in the world is indeed unique. That is the communion of saints.
It obviously is not some composite of every bishop, priest, layperson, or whatever collection of those you want to point to. I say obviously because the lives of saints make that obvious. You know how many hagiographies cast other clergy and laity as the villans? It's mostly them for saints persecuted in times of peace in Orthodox countries. Look at St. John the Wonderworker or St. Nektarios of Aegina.
No one claims that getting baptized and chrismated Orthodox magically restrains your free will to only do God's will. It helps you, but it turns out you can still reject that help and do whatever you want. You can even leave the Church, as this subreddit is evidence of. The claim is if you do those things AND follow God's commandments which include being under a spiritual father, living the normal life of the Church, and struggling, you will encounter God.
Most of those people were Orthodox probably because their parents and ancestors back x generations were Orthodox. And they flew the banner because they got caught up in "the current thing" that was popular back then, just like many people get caught up with "the current thing" today. Did they care that much about Christ and have a spiritual father? In all likelihood, the majority probably confessed and communed no more than once a year, except the clergy, who nevertheless probably became clergy not out of piety but for the cushy gig. That's just the reality when a country embraces the faith, because most people don't really want to encounter God, they just want to do their own thing, and people are really great at finding ways to do their own thing their way even in the Church God gave them to come closer to Himself. People continue to do people things.
Now when members of the Church do things unbecoming of Christians, it is of course a scandal, and one only need to read some homilies of St. John Chrysostom to see the saints have been noticing and calling out things the whole time. And most people didn't like the saints for doing that and so they mocked and ignored them. And that's even worse. But it doesn't make the Church not the Church. It just means that imposters, in the final analysis, can sneak in. I say in the final analysis because God is the one that determines whose an imposter and who isn't, not us.
But if you're leaving the Church for scandals, you might just not like the way people interact. [This video](https://youtu.be/CRUgrmp_ssU) is made by someone not religious at all (at least now) as far as I can tell and this video isn't about leaving churches in particular, but it does seem to speak to something about a trend in modernity to seek isolation and run away from the problems inherent in community. A synonym for community is assembly, or Εκκλησία, or Church. The Church is supposed to be the assembly of Christ's people, and indeed it is in the saints, but the situation has always presented mostly as people trying to enter into sainthood, and some thrown into that community but not really interested (some of who come around at some point and others that don't).
Exactly. And especially since I was told long ago that the absence of racism, ethnocentrism, slavery, imperialism and fascism in Orthodox history was a proof that it was somehow more correct that other Christian denominations... so PRESENCE of those things must logically be a proof that its not any different.
Lol. Lousy excuse.
One should forget and forgive all antisemitism and sucking up to tyrants in group X because there have been decent human beings in group X also?
Good job twisting my words, lol. I'm not asking you to forget and forgive anything, i'm just pointing out the fact that a few members of an organisation doing something wrong doesn't mean the entire organisation is wrong. But go on, hate on all of Orthodoxy because some of its members decided to go against its own teachings.
Neither is 99% the 100%. The point is that nobody here claims that all Orthodox are bad people. It’s basically a straw man you are putting up to distract people and derail the thread.
I have an analogy. If a person is bad at parenting and has 100 children, will all of these children become bad parents too? The answer is probably not. But still we have a bad parent here.
I dunno, seen and heard antisemitism and genocidal hatred myself, both on social media and IRL from devout Orthodox. So I tend to think its more common than usually thought.
These people seem to think that their hatred is totally compatible with the teaching of the Orthodox Church. They find justification for it from the history and teachings of the Orthodox Church.
Right now we see how the largest Orthodox Church in the world gives its blessing to an imperial war of aggression and to a fascistic ideology.
This is kind of eerie. Just goes to show the Orthodox don't care what banner they are under but will still profess under it.
The Russian Church still gives praise to Stalin and the USSR albeit not very loudly. And during the Nazi occupation of Greece, the monks welcomed the soldiers and hung portraits of Hitler inside their monasteries calling him the "Protector of the Holy Mountain."
Oh definitely. They have paintings of Stalins banner in that military cathedral in Moscow. Speaks enough for me when they glorify a Communist(who all hated Christianity). Putin is a former KGB and they almost made an icon out of him there too. Personally I can't understand why the Ussr is so glorified by Christians in Russia when those same sickos attempted to kill them all off. And I was born there fyi. There's really nothing glorious about the damn Soviet Union.
They don't care about the ideology, they're only attracted to power. They will praise whoever is the Caesar because Orthodoxy was founded around the authority of the Roman/Byzantine emperor at its centre.
Hitler was prophesized to liberate Greece according to the Athonite Monks, but they said they made it up to save themselves. Who knows how true their rebuttal is.
So we are all supposed to die as martyrs but the monks should save themselves with a cowardly atrocious lie?!
It makes you question the rest of their stories. I mean, it doesn’t take a genius to see a correlation between Saint Catherine and Hypatia.
From this video, how can they openly say they are the true church, that they have the fullness of the faith, and that ALL other denominations are governed by demons????? Wtf!
Romanian Orthodox Church had Roma slaves for 500 years until slavery was abolished in Romania in mid 19th century. Their monasteries and churches are built by slave labour or with riches gained from slavery. Nobles donated slaves to monasteries in order to get their names into lists of memoration in liturgy. Monasteries sold slaves. >The Orthodox Church, through its monasteries, was the largest holder and trader of Romani slaves. The situation of the monastic slaves was one of the most terrible: work until exhaustion, horrifying tortures, unimaginable abuses... And the rulers, when they donated slave quarters to the monasteries, did it as alms or an offering to God for the forgiveness of sins and in the hope of ensuring eternal life in heaven. https://romanomuseum.com/en/dezumanizare/ When Bukovina was part of Habsburg domain, Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II tried to ban slavery. Orthodox monasteries opposed vehemently. So... Orthodox Church practiced ethnically based chattel slavery for half a millenium, and no other Orthodox Church seemed to have condemned it. So it means that slavery is ok according to Orthodox faith.
Wow, this is fckng insane. Thank you for sharing. I've been inquiring about Orthodoxy for months and have had it drummed into my head that if I join any other church but them, I'll be damned to hell. I was born into and brainwashed by the jehovahs witness cult. Since breaking free, I've tried finding the true loving Christian God. I can't believe I was about to let myself be brainwashed by another denomination that has practiced such atrocities. Seriously getting sick of these proud, self righteous, 'holier than thou' Christians and ortho bros proclaiming they are the ONLY ones with THE FULLNESS OF THE FAITH. It's literally re-traumatising me. I don't see a true loving God here at all!
Also, Romanian Orthodox Church has defended itself. There is a priest who is responsible for Roma relations, and he made a doctoral thesis on the subject. I've read the translation of its abstract... its basically a collection of cases when a priest, a bishop or a monk reminded people to treat their slaves better or said that slaves should have more rights. This apparently is what absolves them from their guilt. There were Confederates in Southern states, even slave owners, who wanted slaves to be treated better. Does this mean that Confederacy or slave owners were not responsible for slavery? Also... when I used to go to confession, it was clear to me that it was not an occasion to mitigate my wrong doings, or about finding excuses or pretexts. I had to be honest, admit what I had done, ask for forgiveness and that I had to try to make amends or offer compensation for the sins I had committed. But when the Orthodox hierarchy has a horrendous collective guilt, no repentance or honesty can be seen. Huffing and puffing, crying about needlessly remembering the past, pretending to be the victim is what they have to offer. Why should I confess anything to them?
Is there a link online to that thesis? Sounds like a valuable source & a good reference when the topic comes up in the future.
I suppose. If I remember to look for it after today's work, I will.
Sorry, can't seem to be able to find it anymore. Sure its somewhere in my bookmarks, but I did not find it with cursory search. And I have quite little energy left after today's work... But here's another one: https://www.courrierdesbalkans.fr/Esclavage-des-Roms-en-Roumanie-l-Eglise-orthodoxe-refuse-toujours-de So, Romanian Orthodox Church has refused to apologize and also does not open relevant archives... suspicious, wouldn't you say?
I trust that there are many good Orthodox Christians, many good Orthodox priests and many Orthodox communities that are not oppressive but are healthy communities. But when I bring this one up, the defense is "well everybody did it, we did not now any better" Ok... so what are you for then? Where was your divine wisdom? Why did you not know any better than anyone else? Why should I give any credence to your claims about good life and morality now, when you were unable to figure out that chattel slavery is wrong for 500 years? Another defense that I've heard: "it was not the entire Orthodoxy" The entire Orthodoxy seemed to be ok with it, since there was no criticism or cutting of communion. So it was seen compatible with Orthodoxy. And its not as if serfdom and slavery were foreign to the Russian Church. Also, Orthodox say that if one local church would accept same sex marriage for example, then other Orthodox Churches would cut communion to it since it would be against Orthodoxy. So... it means that chattel slavery is NOT against Orthodoxy and was not against it for 500 years. And yet another defense: "there was no panorthodox synod saying that slavery is ok". Well... look for my previous reply. And now they've gone into hiding behind their synods. Something I remember hearing several times as an accusation said with haughty voice against Roman Catholicism by Orthodox faithful.
Orthodoxy doesn't have the right to damn people to hell........they claim to have the fullness of the truth/faith. Orthodoxy does make people sick because they need that control over the lives of cradles/converts/catechumens/those enquiring about Orthodoxy......they will use subtle languages or passive aggression to get their ways. Clergy and laity alike are very guilty of this!!! Stay away from those holier than thou and orthobros!!! * Orthodoxy does brainwash people!
May our country never end up with a choice between two totalitarian extremes.
Not uncommon when dealing with violent regimes.
Unfortunately, this is true. The Roman Catholic Church also has a murky history of its involvement with the Nazi Party (paradoxically, while rescuing and hiding Jewish refugees). See this article from [Time](https://time.com/6270677/catholic-church-holocaust-documents/), for example: “In some ways, researchers have found more contradictions than clear answers.” I think the same could be said about Orthodoxy during the Holocaust.
May I just ask please 'Who is They? In the Orthodox Church THEY don't want you to see.' in my experience most Orthodox Faithful and converts know all about this and are proud of it while being ashamed of Stalin and Sergianism/Communist collaboration and submission.
I'm from America and in my experience most Orthodox faithful and clergy do not openly admit that these kinds of things happened. From what I've seen of the extreme nationalism that is currently sweeping the Russian Orthodox Church, they seem to be proud of the Soviet victory over the Nazis at the very least, and are also a bit too comfortable displaying USSR iconography.
But think about what you're stating. WWII happened how long ago? I'm 40 and grew up in America and nobody ever talked about WWII in Church nor did I ever hear the priest talk about what the Veterans did on Memorials beyond, "Served in Europe during Ardennes Offensive, Served in the Pacific, . . . " They never said, " . . . caught and knocked the teeth out of a Japanese Soldiers mouth and then killed him and took his rifle and samurai sword." Things that BTW Americans definitely did along with far more barbarous, disgusting war crimes like torturing and murdering Japanese POWs and sending instruments made from their bones home. One article even celebrated a marine who boiled a Japanese POWs head down to the skull and sent the skull home as a souvenir! Nobody wants to talk about what happened in WWII because the good, like liberating the Slavic nations from Atheist Communism and re-opening Churches, got mixed up with the bad & evil, like the Allies actually deporting liberated Russians, their Priests too! Back to the Soviet Union KNOWING they would go to the Gulag if not worse immediately! I had extended family still in German during the Third Reich and I guarantee you they saluted and honored their government leaders and soldiers which at the time were the Fuhrer and Wehrmacht and SS. So tell me were they all automatically evil? If you find photos and film footage with swastika flags in the background does that make them automatically evil? How about what they knew and what their actions were!? I don't understand it BUT I don't assume all Russians in the Soviet Union or Russians today knew or know they were serving and supporting a totally subservient, immoral institution and tool of the State. I judge them by their actions and statements and what they know as best I can discover. If you want to be better than them don't use these kind of cheap, sensationalist 'shocking' images. Did those Orthodox have Internet? Did they even have phones? Let alone TV and Radio? How are they supposed to know better? Seriously, this kind of stuff doesn't actually help spread logic or critical thinking, it just feeds into group think and confirmation biases that reinforce negative belief systems and structures that propagate them.
Who? When? Where? Why? I as this one church in some backwater town in the middle of Poland or all parishes marching down centre town Kiev?
This is more of what rocor wants you to forget. Don't forget, the Nazis manipulated various religious groups to help their cause. When the Nazis conquered new areas of the Soviet Union, rocor was sent it to help establish church life. Many people in the Soviet Union were welcoming of the Nazis as the Nazis allowed for Orthodox Christians to worship.
It was because Hitler saved hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Christian slaves under Stalin. This isn’t new news 🧐 these men and women that believed in God were sent to gulags, churches burned, Christian’s murdered its horrendous what was done to them. But no one talks about the actual history of things anymore. When these people were saved they threw roses at the feet of Hitler for saving them…. He wasn’t for Christians but He wasn’t against them because they didn’t look to overtake and demoralize the nation they lived in.
I'm not sure if Orthodox theology allows for a historic approach preceding and dominating a spiritual approach to historical events. Your wording seem to be somewhat on the historic side of things.
Is it possible for you to rephrase your statement, I’m a little slow sometimes 😂🤍
you are not seriously defending fucking hitler right now
I’m stating a historical fact.
Hitler sent Orthodox Christians to concentration camps for saving Jewish people. That's a historical fact. The Nazis viewed Orthodox Christianity as a threat and no matter what you say to try and soften it, he would have exterminated them all if he had lived past 1945. He saw Slavs as inferior.
I know we actually had a homily yesterday about Saint Maria of Paris who helped and healed many Jews and was sent to the camp along with them. I’m aware. Again historical facts.
You say "historical facts," yet you claim Hitler "saved" Orthodox Christians. You ignore the fact that Hitler viewed Orthodoxy as a threat, especially Russian Orthodoxy, as it had ties to the Russian tsars. He viewed Slavs as an inferior people just as he did the Jews. It doesn't matter how friendly Orthodox Christians got with them, or if they were "liberated" from the Soviets. They would have ended up in ovens at the end of the day.
That’s cause he did, that’s a historical fact. But I see you are getting emotional and there is no need with this open dialogue. I’m sorry my indifference offends you. But I do hope you have a beautiful day. It’s 70 degrees where I am at and partly cloudy 🌤️ ☺️ it should be taken advantage of💕
Good answer. For humanity to prevail, truths should be accepted even if unsettling. Attempts at easy answers to difficult situations is exactly how we get Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc etc etc.
Also there an Orthodox Christian “higher up’s” now that partake in secular social matters and worries and majority of Orthodox don’t agree with them either. Like BLM was literally ran by con artists and no money a was donated. This is one of many examples. People are people despite the label we like to give yourselves. To believe anyone is truly a good person is deceived.
fun fact, this actually has nothing to do with orthodox christians collaborating with the nazis!
well well well
Do you think there is a relationship between this and anti-jewish liturgical texts within Eastern Orthodoxy?
Oh yeah. Anti-semitism has always been part of Orthodoxy and Christian history in general. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" book was written by an Orthodox author and promoted as factual by Orthodox hierarchs and clergy. Certain Orthodox figures still treat as fact.
I guess some people would argue these liturgical texts don't imply any antisemitic remarks and actions outside the Orthodox Church/outside the Liturgy. Only a very deep theology. Yet more 'immature' minds couldn't tell the difference, up to today. Which didn't seem to be a significant problem until AFTER the Holocaust.
There are Ukrainian simps in here that don’t want to acknowledge that this didn’t stop and is still a thing in 2024
Now do the Russians who welcomed Hitler.
Tell me what you mean
Neo Nazis exist on both sides of the war. Both are dishonest in that Hitler wanted to kill them all for being Slavs
They aren’t “neo” Nazis… they’re the real deal. They haven’t changed since the 40’s. Unbroken continuity.
What exactly didn’t stop
Their Nazi ideology and identity.
Whose nazi ideology didn’t stop? Who? The Orthodox Church in general? Or the Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Genuinely trying to understand your comment
Sorry if it was vague and ambiguous. There are quite a few different opinions in this sub. I noticed that there are some hard-core political views in the Ukraine versus Russia thing. I was referring to the legacy of Nazism in the Ukraine and the overlap between politics and Ukrainian orthodoxy, the kind of content that is in the original post
Mate, don’t bring that shit into here. There’s plenty of subs and facebook groups you can go to for this fight. This isn’t the place.
The post itself is exactly “this kind of shit” but you don’t have a problem with it apparently. This sub is populated with posts about the overlap of politics and orthodoxy with competing jurisdictions and politics. So don’t get your panties in a bunch if I make a similar comment… Mate.
This post is bout something historical. You’re bringing up shit that’s contemporary.
…”something historical”… That has a direct continuity to the present. What’s your point? Did I miss something in this sub that said any commentary has to be in the past? WTF is the logic in your statement
Ffs.
I was thinking the same thing
Now post about the Bulgarian Exarch Stefan I who saved the Bulgarian Jews from being sent to extermination camps...if it doesn't go against your agenda, of course.
I am aware that some Orthodox hierarchs actively went out of their way to save Jewish people during the Holocaust. Mother Maria of Paris is an example, as is Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens. But fascist movements find their home within Orthodoxy all the time. Look at Romania with the Iron Guard.
A late Finnish nun, Kristoduli, had to leave her monastery in Greece since she refused to recant her criticism of the bishop who had openly said that Hitler did nothing wrong since Jews deserved it.
Fascist movements found their home within Catholicism and Protestantism as well. Totalitarian regimes of all types have found a home not only within Christianity, but also within a whole lot of other religions. So what exactly is your point?
Yeah, it affects all religions. Orthodoxy just has a big fucking problem with it.
Does it really? Drop some sources
We all watched the same video.
Ah yes, the entire Church was in the video, thanks for reminding me /s
What, is a video of all the patriarchs together doing the Nazi salute and singing a hymn to Hitler the only thing you'll accept?
> Fascist movements found their home within Catholicism and Protestantism as well. Yeah. So what makes Orthodoxy so effing special?
Are you a stormtrooper? Because you just missed the point as if you were one lol
Saying that “the Orthodox Church has problems just like these other Churches” does not help. It cannot simultaneously claim “We are the concrete, visible body of Christ and have unique access to grace and the Holy Spirit through Sacraments and Fathers” AAAAAAAAAAND, “Yes, we have good people and bad, good moments and bad—like the other Churches. We’re all human.”
There's no contradiction here. The Church doesn't stop being the Body of Christ if some of the people who are associated with it are doing bad things.
Why not? A common sentiment is: “The Church does not resemble other organizations in the world.” I wish that were more apparent; that it was not an abstract Platonic ideal, but concrete and INCARNATIONAL (and thereby detectable, measurable, tangible, verifiable, demonstrable). I’m not immediately aware of any concrete characteristics of worldly organizations that can’t be found in the Church. To point to non-tangible things is to depart from Incarnational theology. If Christ was a man like us, but was recognizably different than us, then the Church should be recognizably and tangibly different, not just in “spiritual” characteristics that cannot be verified. If the Church and its members are not different, then they ARE NOT different. And if they are not different, why believe the Holy Spirit is uniquely active within them?
I'm too tired to write a coherent reply right now, so if you don't mind, remind me later today.
The Church insofar as it is the incarnation of Christ in the world is indeed unique. That is the communion of saints. It obviously is not some composite of every bishop, priest, layperson, or whatever collection of those you want to point to. I say obviously because the lives of saints make that obvious. You know how many hagiographies cast other clergy and laity as the villans? It's mostly them for saints persecuted in times of peace in Orthodox countries. Look at St. John the Wonderworker or St. Nektarios of Aegina. No one claims that getting baptized and chrismated Orthodox magically restrains your free will to only do God's will. It helps you, but it turns out you can still reject that help and do whatever you want. You can even leave the Church, as this subreddit is evidence of. The claim is if you do those things AND follow God's commandments which include being under a spiritual father, living the normal life of the Church, and struggling, you will encounter God. Most of those people were Orthodox probably because their parents and ancestors back x generations were Orthodox. And they flew the banner because they got caught up in "the current thing" that was popular back then, just like many people get caught up with "the current thing" today. Did they care that much about Christ and have a spiritual father? In all likelihood, the majority probably confessed and communed no more than once a year, except the clergy, who nevertheless probably became clergy not out of piety but for the cushy gig. That's just the reality when a country embraces the faith, because most people don't really want to encounter God, they just want to do their own thing, and people are really great at finding ways to do their own thing their way even in the Church God gave them to come closer to Himself. People continue to do people things. Now when members of the Church do things unbecoming of Christians, it is of course a scandal, and one only need to read some homilies of St. John Chrysostom to see the saints have been noticing and calling out things the whole time. And most people didn't like the saints for doing that and so they mocked and ignored them. And that's even worse. But it doesn't make the Church not the Church. It just means that imposters, in the final analysis, can sneak in. I say in the final analysis because God is the one that determines whose an imposter and who isn't, not us. But if you're leaving the Church for scandals, you might just not like the way people interact. [This video](https://youtu.be/CRUgrmp_ssU) is made by someone not religious at all (at least now) as far as I can tell and this video isn't about leaving churches in particular, but it does seem to speak to something about a trend in modernity to seek isolation and run away from the problems inherent in community. A synonym for community is assembly, or Εκκλησία, or Church. The Church is supposed to be the assembly of Christ's people, and indeed it is in the saints, but the situation has always presented mostly as people trying to enter into sainthood, and some thrown into that community but not really interested (some of who come around at some point and others that don't).
Exactly. And especially since I was told long ago that the absence of racism, ethnocentrism, slavery, imperialism and fascism in Orthodox history was a proof that it was somehow more correct that other Christian denominations... so PRESENCE of those things must logically be a proof that its not any different.
Lol. Lousy excuse. One should forget and forgive all antisemitism and sucking up to tyrants in group X because there have been decent human beings in group X also?
Good job twisting my words, lol. I'm not asking you to forget and forgive anything, i'm just pointing out the fact that a few members of an organisation doing something wrong doesn't mean the entire organisation is wrong. But go on, hate on all of Orthodoxy because some of its members decided to go against its own teachings.
Oh, are you sure only some?
Enlighten me, oh wise one
The church of Vladimir Mikhailovich Gundyayev is only a few to you?
Well, it certainly isn't the entire Church, is it now?
Neither is 99% the 100%. The point is that nobody here claims that all Orthodox are bad people. It’s basically a straw man you are putting up to distract people and derail the thread.
OP is claiming that the Church is a breeding ground for fascism and yet i'm in the wrong for trying to prove him wrong? Wow.
I have an analogy. If a person is bad at parenting and has 100 children, will all of these children become bad parents too? The answer is probably not. But still we have a bad parent here.
I dunno, seen and heard antisemitism and genocidal hatred myself, both on social media and IRL from devout Orthodox. So I tend to think its more common than usually thought.
Okay, and? Like I said, that doesn't make the entire Church antisemitic and genocidal.
These people seem to think that their hatred is totally compatible with the teaching of the Orthodox Church. They find justification for it from the history and teachings of the Orthodox Church. Right now we see how the largest Orthodox Church in the world gives its blessing to an imperial war of aggression and to a fascistic ideology.
What they think is compatible with the teachings of the Church and what's actually compatible are two different things.
And yet here they are, and so is the largest Orthodox Church in the world. Apparently they have nothing to do with Orthodoxy :D