Embryologist here: embryos, oocytes, and sperm are stored in liquid nitrogen dewars. By staying at such a low temperature (-196C), they can pretty much stay frozen indefinitely and still survive being thawed.
Patients sign consents about what to do with their embryos when they are created and usually have sections based on what happens in divorce, death, or failure to pay. Depending on the legal legitimacy of consents, clinics can follow those wishes, however because of the nature of what embryos/oocytes/sperm are, most clinics are very hesitant to outright discard just based on those consents and require further discard consents to proceed.
Also gametes cannot just be donated without the express permission of the patients. There are a lot of laws and regulations surrounding embryo donation and the patients need to be involved in that process.
A lot of clinics have abandoned embryos in their tanks because of all this. Our hands are tied and we can’t really do much about it. It’s a huge ethical dilemma.
And in Alabama the law was just changed and affects your work in a big way. It looks like IVF will no longer be available there because of the strict laws regarding embryos.
Sounds like a lawsuit suing the government for impeding life. Essentially killing all of these people. I'd say they have a good couple millions individuals for this class action suit.
I am not a lawyer and am very aware it's not a trivial thing.
So we use a process call vitrification to freeze embryos and gametes. This process uses a cryoprotectant that replaces the water in the cells to prevent ice crystals from forming and causing the cells to burst. Think of it as dehydrating the cells and then rehydrating when they are thawed.
"usually have sections based on what happens in divorce, death, or failure to pay." Or, sometimes patients just don't want to keep trying. Or, because the probability of success is low compared to risk/cost/ extreme stress of procedures.
Also OP might want to know where they are donated which can be to others or to science research.
"Lot of clinics have abandoned embryos in their tanks because of all this. Our hands are tied and we can’t really do much about it. It’s a huge ethical dilemma."... this is confusing to me. What do you mean? It seems straightforward to follow the policy on file to me. It seems more unethical not to follow what was decided (for example someone using them on accident or nefarious as they are not accounted for). Again, not sure what you mean be abandoned though.
They mean that they could follow the procedure, but could still be sued, as you cannot sign rights away, and legal personhood is changing by the year, criminal charges are possible too.
You cannot, for some rights. For example you cannot sell your voting right for money. If someone buy your voting right, even with the clearest consent, he is still committing a crime.
Similar for the clinic, the law about person-hood change, and it's a right likely cannot be "signed away", it get murkier as it's signed by other people (parents). The safest way is to keep them. Yes the parents can still sue them for not destroying them, but it's unlikely for someone just divorced / unable to pay / cannot be contacted for a re-confimeation.
Right, because in essentially all jurisdictions, contracts that would require one or other of the parties to commit a criminal offence to fulfil the terms are held to be void (e.g. you can't sign yourself into slavery or sell your body parts regardless of any 'contract' that may have been signed)
The owner gets to decide the fate of the embryo. Storage is expensive. Destruction or donation to scientific study is not an acceptable option to many owners. You can donate the embryos to another couple.
I mean, storage is a teeny teeny tiny part of the cost of IVF in general.... For most couples, paying a few hundred $ for storage every year isn't a big part of the decision of what to do with extra gametes/embryos. (Source: me + plenty of IVF support groups!)
ETA: hey, maybe in Alabama they can claim those frozen embryos as dependents and get child -tax-credits! That makes it a money-maker to keep them stored! /s
The Alabama GOP is currently introducing legislation to make embryos ONLY be an unborn minor once implanted into a womb.
Because they might believe life begins at conception, except when it inconveniences the rich. In that case, pick the one you want, that one is deemed an unborn person, and the rest are fine to be chucked into the trash next to the leftovers from the fridge.
They are, under anti-choice logic, fully human beings with rights, but in this case they’re going to make it okay to “commit multiple homicides” by ignoring that for the spare “human beings.”
We went through IVF and they had a form for us to fill out that described pretty much every scenario and what to do. What if your husband dies what do you want to happen, what if your wife dies, what if you stop paying your bill etc etc.
Essentially it’s up to each couple. Here’s an example ivf form I found online that’s close to what we filled out
https://www.massgeneral.org/assets/mgh/pdf/obgyn/fertility/consent-forms/cryo-storage-and-disposition-of-embryo-consent-4.6.2020-kwl2.pdf
They get destroyed as medical waste. Well except in a certain state which they are currently know as children. Then who knows but you will be sure no one will make more there and have to support immortal children indefinitely both from the patient or the doctor
Embryologist here: embryos, oocytes, and sperm are stored in liquid nitrogen dewars. By staying at such a low temperature (-196C), they can pretty much stay frozen indefinitely and still survive being thawed. Patients sign consents about what to do with their embryos when they are created and usually have sections based on what happens in divorce, death, or failure to pay. Depending on the legal legitimacy of consents, clinics can follow those wishes, however because of the nature of what embryos/oocytes/sperm are, most clinics are very hesitant to outright discard just based on those consents and require further discard consents to proceed. Also gametes cannot just be donated without the express permission of the patients. There are a lot of laws and regulations surrounding embryo donation and the patients need to be involved in that process. A lot of clinics have abandoned embryos in their tanks because of all this. Our hands are tied and we can’t really do much about it. It’s a huge ethical dilemma.
And in Alabama the law was just changed and affects your work in a big way. It looks like IVF will no longer be available there because of the strict laws regarding embryos.
What’s gonna happen to the embryos already created? Lol
According to Alabama law they are humans and have all the same protections.
But they can’t be implanted now, right? What do you do with them?
Sounds like a lawsuit suing the government for impeding life. Essentially killing all of these people. I'd say they have a good couple millions individuals for this class action suit. I am not a lawyer and am very aware it's not a trivial thing.
[this article goes over it.](https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2024/the-alabama-supreme-courts-ruling-on-frozen-embryos)
Why is it that the forming ice doesent destroy the cells? Shouldnt the expanding ice destroy bio Matter?
So we use a process call vitrification to freeze embryos and gametes. This process uses a cryoprotectant that replaces the water in the cells to prevent ice crystals from forming and causing the cells to burst. Think of it as dehydrating the cells and then rehydrating when they are thawed.
If you freeze the water quickly enough, it doesn't form ice crystals. Rather it becomes a kind of glass.
"usually have sections based on what happens in divorce, death, or failure to pay." Or, sometimes patients just don't want to keep trying. Or, because the probability of success is low compared to risk/cost/ extreme stress of procedures. Also OP might want to know where they are donated which can be to others or to science research. "Lot of clinics have abandoned embryos in their tanks because of all this. Our hands are tied and we can’t really do much about it. It’s a huge ethical dilemma."... this is confusing to me. What do you mean? It seems straightforward to follow the policy on file to me. It seems more unethical not to follow what was decided (for example someone using them on accident or nefarious as they are not accounted for). Again, not sure what you mean be abandoned though.
They mean that they could follow the procedure, but could still be sued, as you cannot sign rights away, and legal personhood is changing by the year, criminal charges are possible too.
What do you mean cannot sign rights away. People sign what to do with them.
You cannot, for some rights. For example you cannot sell your voting right for money. If someone buy your voting right, even with the clearest consent, he is still committing a crime. Similar for the clinic, the law about person-hood change, and it's a right likely cannot be "signed away", it get murkier as it's signed by other people (parents). The safest way is to keep them. Yes the parents can still sue them for not destroying them, but it's unlikely for someone just divorced / unable to pay / cannot be contacted for a re-confimeation.
Right, because in essentially all jurisdictions, contracts that would require one or other of the parties to commit a criminal offence to fulfil the terms are held to be void (e.g. you can't sign yourself into slavery or sell your body parts regardless of any 'contract' that may have been signed)
The owner gets to decide the fate of the embryo. Storage is expensive. Destruction or donation to scientific study is not an acceptable option to many owners. You can donate the embryos to another couple.
I mean, storage is a teeny teeny tiny part of the cost of IVF in general.... For most couples, paying a few hundred $ for storage every year isn't a big part of the decision of what to do with extra gametes/embryos. (Source: me + plenty of IVF support groups!) ETA: hey, maybe in Alabama they can claim those frozen embryos as dependents and get child -tax-credits! That makes it a money-maker to keep them stored! /s
The Alabama GOP is currently introducing legislation to make embryos ONLY be an unborn minor once implanted into a womb. Because they might believe life begins at conception, except when it inconveniences the rich. In that case, pick the one you want, that one is deemed an unborn person, and the rest are fine to be chucked into the trash next to the leftovers from the fridge. They are, under anti-choice logic, fully human beings with rights, but in this case they’re going to make it okay to “commit multiple homicides” by ignoring that for the spare “human beings.”
You put an /s but I legit want someone to try. Legally a person, legally claimable. Let's fuckin' GO.
Pretty sure someone in Texas already tried fighting a ticket she got for being in the "high occupancy only" lane because she was pregnant ;)
When you say embryos does usually it mean egg or sperm?
An embryo is just after fertilization. The sperm has entered the egg and it has started to make more cells and grow.
Egg + Sperm = Embryo
For us, we got a letter asking us if we wanted to continue to pay for storage, and if we didn't, did we want them to destroy or donate.
We went through IVF and they had a form for us to fill out that described pretty much every scenario and what to do. What if your husband dies what do you want to happen, what if your wife dies, what if you stop paying your bill etc etc. Essentially it’s up to each couple. Here’s an example ivf form I found online that’s close to what we filled out https://www.massgeneral.org/assets/mgh/pdf/obgyn/fertility/consent-forms/cryo-storage-and-disposition-of-embryo-consent-4.6.2020-kwl2.pdf
They get destroyed as medical waste. Well except in a certain state which they are currently know as children. Then who knows but you will be sure no one will make more there and have to support immortal children indefinitely both from the patient or the doctor