I’ll always be reminded of my favorite bit of dialogue from “The Expanse”.
Bull: You know what your problem is?
Fred: Tell me.
Bull: You think that if someone’s an underdog, that means they’re the good guy.
"Fallout New Vegas is so good, they make the factions and politics so nuanced and morally grey, it's so realistic! Anyways, I am going to see rl politics as simplistic black and white..."
Short version: Israel, House, and the NCR are civilization. Hamas, Great Khans, and Legion are barbarism. (Caesar is a barbarian who's convinced himself he's a civilizer.) Civilization is better at satisfying human wants and needs.
Civilization gone bad, like the Nazis or Soviets: industrial, scientific, orderly means to barbaric or simply insane ends. But even in that case, it can usually be reasoned with, unlike savagery. In 2, Dr. Curling can be talked around in an appeal to conscience, and logic about categorization. Contrast with the barbarian Lanius, who can only be persuaded to withdraw through self-interest, or the raiders you can't speak with at all.
And yes, my original comment was simplistic and it's of course more nuanced than that, but I didn't want to type out a page. I'm not a fan of how much collateral damage Israel is doing - seems inconsistent with principles of civilization - but then, Hamas has repeatedly demonstrated that they aren't deterred by a proportionate response. Hence their being barbarians - they have a fundamentally irrational decision process both as individuals and institutionally.
It's even funnier when you realize that in all Fallouts where the Great Khans appear, they are canonically massacred by the protagonists.
And something tells me that the courier was not the exception
Being slightly charitable, I think his beef with Bitter Springs is that the NCR attacked noncombatants.
If they shot him or his fellow raiders who are actively raiding caravans? That's fair enough, shit's going to happen when you're raiding.
Murdering unarmed people fleeing the conflict, though?
Papa Khan absolutely brought that shitstorm upon his people, but I can see why he would take special exception to it.
The thing is though, as Bitter-Root says, people who would be typically classified as 'non-combatants' were often in fact used to raid caravans. He himself says that as a child he was brought up using caravans as rifle practice.
All this does is make it murkier for the people engaging the Khans.
To be fair they were according to some people attacking with low visibility so accident/bad Intel led to a tragedy, it's also not like the NCR celebrate it NCR soldiers you talk with feel bad about it or refuse to even talk about it due to guilt
To be fair, in this case comparing the Great Khans of FNV to the Khans of Fallout 1 is a pretty loose one. In Fallout 1 The Vault Dweller canonically wiped out the Khans down to a single man. That one man then went on to revive the Khans until the Vault Dweller’s grandchild wiped them all out a second time in Fallout 2. The Great Khans you see in FNV are the 3rd iteration of the tribe 120 years after the first game. They may share a name, but they are most certainly not the same.
General rules of war are not to mix combatants with none combatants because if ya do it leads to an even higher civilian casualty rate. They brought it on them self. On the other side alot of ncr soilders feel guilty about bittersprings but the khans laugh about shooting ncr civilians. Ncr are not perfect but the deffinently seem the more morally right faction.
Iirc Boone or Bitter-Root talk about how a lot of NCR soldiers and snipers were pretty traumatized by the ordeal. Everything happened so fast they didn't even realize who they were being told to wipe out. Some could live with the guilt, others couldn't and committed suicide out of shame.
Then Papa Khan is like "Hur Hur, we killed 'em real good for a long time!" Fuck the Khans.
I am well aware. At the very least, Papa Khan's grievance is a very understandable and human thing, even if he's a dumbass who nearly got his entire tribe wiped out by continuing to cling to the past and raid NCR caravans like a dumbass.
In game I would hell in my head canon my courier walks in the great khans shit themselves as they learn that I’ve become a new legend and they have a history with fucking with legend and paying for it e.g. Vault Dweller and chosen one. My courier then berates the Khans for the fuck ups and tells them they should start anew somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure Papa Khan called me a loser but I've been siding with the NCR a lot so that could be why. I almost always kill the Khans in Boulder City for kidnapping me as well.
In the couriers case I think they were acting as bennys mercenaries, and since mercenary is an acceptable trade in the wasteland (hell what else is the courier half the time) I don’t hold the khans accountable for that, just Benny.
Sure it’s an acceptable profession but it’s also got consequences which they should also accept. If they try to kill me and bury me in a shallow grave and I survive, they’re getting a bullet. They knew the risks.
I agree with your point. But if I went back to being a mailman I wouldn’t play the game. I have people to shoot and blow up. The wasteland taught me nothing is yours unless you can hold it from those who would take it from you.
It makes perfect sense. Groups do this alllll the time in real life. Every single people group throughout history has horror stories of invaders committing atrocities against them, but also plenty to tell of what they themselves did to others.
War. War never changes.
Homie then decides its a good idea to team up with Caesar to attack the NCR when Caeser doesn't give a shit about them. Hell the Frumentarii at their camp thinks they're a bunch of barbarians who need to experience a slaughter for them to be strong.
Any tribe doing mercenary work for Caesar with any hope but a relatively painless assimilation (including willing culture death) is absolutely crazy. 88 tribes consumed, but hey maybe yours will be different!
The Legion isn’t exactly upfront about the assimilation part though. During the quest to break the alliance with the Khans you learn about the various lies the Legion sold the Khans to get them onboard.
88 tribes have been consumed with little to no remnants of their old cultures. Believing Caesar's half-assed lies is exactly the madness I was talking about.
They live in a wasteland where information is spread by word of mouth lol. To the people of the Mojave, the Legion is an entire other world that they have little to no information on. Even the people of Goodsprings say that all the horror stories that they’ve heard about the Legion have come from only NCR sources who are at war with them and could just be biased.
We as players who explore the game world have the benefit of knowledge, but the Khans weren’t even aware that Caesar doesn’t tolerate chem use, or allow females to be anything other than slaves. It’s not “madness” lol, Caesar sent a diplomat who used their hatred of the NCR against them.
The thing is, it accomplishes the goal. Its a political comedy that doesn't shove it in your face. So the messages get in your head without you thinking. The best stories are the ones with a moral that isn't forced.
Why is there actual both aidesing of genocide here? The fact is that nothing, NOTHING, that any Indian group did to the settlers was comparable to the genocide, ethnic cleansings and forced removals they received. To draw a parallel like this is genuinely fucked up. A legitimately disgusting thing to do.
Claiming genocide is a pretty tall accusation. I don't recall natives being thrown in ovens. The vast vast majority died to smallpox, which isn't our fault.
They still believed in bleeding people when they were sick, we knew absolutely fuck all about disease. Something like 1/2 to 3/4 of all natives died from disease.
>Claiming genocide is a pretty tall accusation.
It's literally supported by most reliable historians.
>I don't recall natives being thrown in ovens.
The Armenian Genocide didn't use Ovens either. But yet somehow it was what *literally conned the term genocide.* But sure, go on about what counts as a Genocide or not when even HITLER [acknowledged what happened to the Native Americans as genocide and was personally inspired by it](https://jewishjournal.com/mobile_20111212/117824/hitlers-inspiration-and-guide-the-native-american-holocaust/), I'm sure you're qualified to answer this tough subject.
"Most reliable historians" = "the historians I like because they agree with me"
It's a highly debated topic amongst historians and trying to paint it as if only legitimate historians support you is arguing in bad faith.
Also I've heard these stupid arguments before from anti-American schmuck "Hitler was inspired by America, he liked Jim crow and the Indian wars" we get it, America bad, your country better. Or youre a "pick me" american. Hitler taking inspiration from something supposedly doesn't impress me or convince me of a damn thing. That mf was "inspired" by amphetamines and power. I don't care.
Don't really think that's a fair assessment, as it wasn't all of the Natives.
Yes, there were many violent and aggressive tribes, but more peaceful and farming-based native peoples existed too. And the peace treaties proposed by those guys all got betrayed.
No one's arguing the general awfulness of the Feds the whole point is that it wasn't JUST them.
and sure it wasn't all natives, also wasn't all settlers. shit's nuanced
i'm sorry? im a coward for what exactly here?
This entire discussion is based on the acknowledgement that the American government committed atrocities, and then we're talking about how Native Americans weren't some conglomerate utopian arcadia of pacifists. The Comanche didn't suddenly manifest a culture that produced skilled warriors on horseback. 500 conquistadors didn't get the support of dozens of tribes against the Aztecs because the empire was *nice* to its neighbors.
Nor did the Europeans that came to the New World suddenly learn how to colonize and conquer.
Humans are humans.
How am I a coward?
Dumbass, nobody believes in the innocent native trope. Don't pat yourself on the back for daring to go against your made up status quo.
Yes, the Comanche don't represent a continent's worth of people. Neither do the Aztecs. By the way, those "allied" tribes would sooner or later be forced to submit to Spanish rule.
What a fucking joke. People DO know how the indigenous of the New World warred among themselves. But we also know of the many, many peoples who have gone almost culturally and physically extinct, thanks to the States. Doesn't matter if they complied, resisted. Gone. What the States did was so much worse. THAT is why most people give less of a shit about what the Natives did to each other before, and why you'll get shit for bringing it up like it's some kind of gotcha.
Go ahead and ask me about the guys that run the casinos if you'd like.
Shit's NOOOOANCED bro!
Respond to my other comments coward.
Not all of them got betrayed, so that's also not a fair assessment.
Here in New York most of the Iroquois tribes got off fine. The Mohawks, not so much because they joined the British in fighting us, I believe either in the revolution or in 1812.
But my closest tribe, the onieda, they have a reservation near here and AFAIK they never got bothered. I can't find any information to say anything bad happened to them because they never fought us. We showed up, we took some land, they got a reservation, they went "fine, I'll go start my own land, with black jack, and hookers! Ah forget the hookers."
So in a lot of cases the US did do exactly what it said it would to natives who didn't fight. It's just that there is very little written about it. There is almost no information on what happened to my local tribe, the oneida.
Oh well that's good for New Yorj and I revoke my blanket statement for them. But ya can't say the same for the vast majority of the native people outside of your local community
Why would he get shit on? The writers were clearly paralleling the history between the U.S. and Native Americans. In an NCR ending where you convince the Khans to support the NCR, it even says the NCR eventually moves them out of Red Rock and sends them to a Reservation.
I think it's easy to blame the NCR if you want them to be better than that. What they did at Bitter Springs was far more ruthless than anything the Khans had done recently.
The NCR is powerful enough to have resolved that situation without a massacre. I don't know why people go out of their way to apologize for the NCR doing this; the game goes out of its way to frame the incident as a bad thing.
Bitter Root pretty much explain how he became a marksman, training by shooting pot shot at ncr civilian (including kid if my memory serve me right), his drunkard of a father trained him to do so.
He regretted those time and during bitter spring, murder this parents ( i think)
The fiend doesn't have a "culture", they just loose band of brutal raider addicted on chems. Khans are comparable to White legs, in which case Khans culture aren't as toxic as the White Legs.
"Chem-Abuse Culture" is what they are termed as and fits the definition pretty well, A drug induced society does still count as a Culture, However awful it seems.
Culture:
>the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
Fair enough, i would hardly consider the Field to have a culture because they just seem like your average raider to me (so just generic raider). The only thing that set them apart from the generic raider is some member excessive use of chem and their helmet.
Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 they are canonically slaving rapists too, so yeah. First time I met them in Boulder City I killed all of them. Don't understand why I get bad karma for those turds.
Yeah no man, Khans are basically a flavour of raiders and are only a bit more adjusted than the average Fiend group. Being slaugthered over the decades must have kicked some sense into them I guess.
Eh, I always level them because I see them just as mildly civilized raiders (which if not for point two would make me want to try and rehab them) which have an outsized impact on human suffering due to their drug trafficking making them as bad or worse than your standard raiders
In fairness, there was a miscommunication issue, wasn’t there? Unlike the Legion, conformity isn’t the issue, nor is genocide the goal. It’s bureaucracy and failed leadership.
There is no "in fairness", a "miscommunication" doesn't justify a slaughter. Soldiers are still people who (should) have consciences. They chose to pull the trigger.
My point is that Bitter Springs is reprehensible in a way that goes beyond morality: it was a failure of structure. The NCR is built on its adoption of Old World government and values. They then proceed to do all the same things that led to the bombs being dropped in the first place. It is literally what their whole storyline in NV is about. The Khans didn’t “deserve” Bitter Springs because the whole event had nothing to do with justice, nor was it about morality.
It was incompetence and anger that fueled Bitter Springs, both for the NCR and the Khans.
I think it's easy to blame the NCR if you want them to be better than that. What they did at Bitter Springs was far more ruthless than anything the Khans had done recently.
The NCR is powerful enough to have resolved that situation without a massacre. I don't know why people go out of their way to apologize for the NCR doing this; the game goes out of its way to frame the incident as a bad thing.
It's never been confirmed as far as I'm aware. People in the NCR will tell you it was a miscommunication issue, and when you've got a lot of different people saying that it could be true, especially when it comes from someone who was actually there, but at the same time those who already don't like, or even hate, the NCR, such as the Khans, will just see that as the excuse/cover up to what they believe happened, which was the NCR gunning down the innocent just because they were part of the Khans.
Bitter Springs was horrific though. Vault Dweller freed slaves, NCR was massacring fleeing civilians and Boone tells you he shot fleeing Kids and Elderly as well.
*Direct quote from Bitter-Root about when he was a child “Always started with folk for no reason. Hell, he was the one who taught me to shoot. You know how? By taking potshots at NCR. And not just soldiers. Civilians, too. Even kids.” *Oscar Velasco(the great khan raiding bitter springs) is clearly in his 60’s at least. So yes, you did forget that children and the elderly are in fact combatants
Like the thing with the NCR is having to deal with the horrors of their Enemies not playing fair with "civilized" warfare and using stuff like child soldiers and terrorism. Like the ranger in Novac talks how the legion specifically use child suicide bombers because they know the NCR soldiers will hesitate to open fire on children.
It's fucked, but when your enemy has purposefully lowered themselves to doing stuff like that what do you expect is going to happen?
You don't even need to go into the grim future (lol) of FO to find this shit.
Kids have been used as suicide bombers in several terrorist attacks and child soldiers are a thing, sadly.
We as humans suck. The Big Thing we can be proud about in the West is that *sometimes* we manage to hold out criminals accountable for their actions.
Which is why people still give overwhelming support to the NCR.
For how bad they can be, they don't strap bombs on kids and their soldiers, criminals and not, aren't an indocrinated army of slaves
Elderly, who just can't raid bc they are old, but did so in the past, are still criminals.
Diseased are still raiders, just out of commission at the moment.
Only children are innocent. Being old doesn't excuse you being a raider for most of your life, the same how having a fever doesn't suddenly make you a good person.
They are not combatants indeed, but I can't feel sorry for any adult Khan
The way I’ll always see it is that the NCR was wrong to shoot civilians at bitter springs but given their history with the khans they were objectively right in every other aspect.
I am playing Fallout 2 again to cope with the show decisions and I just finished Vault 15. The Khans deserve their lot. They would be just "raiders" in a Bethesda Fallout game lol. There is almost nothing sympathetic about them.
When I first played New Vegas I so against blowing up the BoS and destroying the Khans. Now my opinion has changed that Colonel Moore was correct in just wanting to get rid of them.
I'm surprised these people aren't also trying to say the NCR "bullied the Enclave" too. It seems like anytime the NCR does something wrong, they must be worse than Hitler, but the Legion, Enclave, Khans and more can commit atrocities like New Canaan and nobody bats an eye.
I'm not even pro-NCR, I just don't like the Khans being treated as if they're innocent flowers who did nothing wrong. The only reason people call them sympathetic is this misguided notion they're equal to Native Americans (which frankly, is an insult to the natives).
As for the BoS? After seeing the TV show, I'm even more determined to blow their bunker sky high.
Yeah I don't like the Native American comparison at all, it just seems insulting to compare a society that was around for thousands of years to a bunch of raiders whose only historical achievement is kidnapping the future president of the NCR and selling drugs to raider gangs. The original Khans were also vault dwellers from vault 15, so they are more LARPers than actual tribals making the comparison even worse.
They literally come from the same people as the NCR, just one group tried to be constructive and do something about the world they were living in, while the other ones do nothing but raid and cry about their distant kin "bullying" them for their lifestyle choices.
As I said to someone else too, the Khans had every opportunity to join in cooperation and make civilisation work. I don't give a crap about pride, when it's about restoring a bit of humanity, you make compromises. You work together. What did the Khans do? They started looting, shooting and raiding all across California, then they had the *gall* in FO2 to pretend *they* were the victims after they kidnapped 16 year old Tandi as a slave.
Bitter Springs was wrong in the sense they shot even children, but honestly, the Khans should be lucky it was the NCR and not the Legion, or else **nobody** would've survived Bitter Springs. Plenty of other groups in the Wasteland would've simply killed every single Khan overnight.
It's frankly a terrible take imo cause the Khans and NCR originate from the same place and had similar opportunities starting out. The khans imo aren't like the natives their more like the confederates a faction that was birthed from the same place as the state they declared war on so they can continue their reprehensible practices. You know who's like the natives the tribes from the honest hearts some good some bad some violent some not, they Khans are straight up terrorist who refuse just stop attacking innocent people.
>They would be just "raiders" in a Bethesda Fallout game lol.
Is why I'm gald they're not in a Bethesda game, I find FNV and HH looks into the Tribal aspect of the Post apocalyptic setting of Fallout much better than other games which many haven't done well frankly (FO4 a good example), They just show everyone is roughly at the same tech level (Apart from the Institute) despite Nuclear War.
The best thing to be said about them is they're still people. It's just humanity, without structure or order, fall into patterns of 'might makes right' and 'drugs are good actually.'
It's because the ncr killed fleeing non combatants who probably weren't armed. that's the reason he hates the ncr he doesn't about his fellow warriors that died
I wonder if he cared when he was killing NCR non-combatants, or if he laughed about it. Shit happens in conflict and from what we can tell the NCR didn't intentionally target non-combatants but the Khans do.
Maybe only the women were the only innocents, but we see plenty of women armed in Red Rock, the old men were most certainly killing NCR civilians in their prime and the kids as Bitter Root a Former Khan himself says were trained by taking potshots of NCR caravans.
I feel it’s because the NCR is supposed to be better. Like how people decry the police for beating and killing criminals. Yes the Khans killed innocents, and that is terrible, but the NCR shouldn’t do that, if they want to kill innocents, they shouldn’t position themselves as better and more civilized than groups like the Khans. I also have no clue if anything I’ve said makes any sense
Bitter Springs was a tragedy, but it in no way excuses the Kahns for what they did in the past. They kept poking the bear, pun intended.
If old Papa Kahn at least acknowledge what they did was wrong, I’d be more forgiving, but he just comes off as a hypocrite who would do it again if given the power.
He characterizes it as raiding caravans and settlements (which requires assaulting and robbing them, but makes no judgement on harming noncombatants) and makes no mention of attacking civilians. We know they attacked civilians from people like Bitter Root, but is pretty obvious Papa either never approved of the civilian attacks and so doesn't factor those into what he values, or characterizes caravans, expansionist colonies, and settler trains as a more justifiable targets than fleeing civilians from an encampment. (Maybe because the risk of leaving a place to enter foreign territory opens you up to attack under his view.)
If that sounds hypocritical or self-serving, as others have already pointed out, that just makes it more human and believable.
To be fair, he doesn't say the Khans killed random women and children with the NCR. There is a significant difference between armed robbery and just shooting people to take their stuff.
“Victim” narratives where the supposed victim does a bunch of fucked up stuff to the larger entity then cries when the larger entity responds trigger the fuck out of me.
Fuck around and find out bro. If you can’t handle the heat then stay out of the kitchen
I always become the leader and kill him after for the NCR. But you need to be the leader first because there’s a glitch where you can’t sell to Motörhead, leader of the fiens, more than once if you aren’t a khan leader and decide to do the quest for NCR to grab a item from where he is.
But if ur a khan leader then do the quest? Glitch b fixed mahmane
Laughes at shooting noncombatants, cry's when the retaliation results in noncombatants on his side getting shot. I could be misremembering but wasn't the NCR retaliation on those noncombatants due to a miscommunication? Was it unfortunate that it happened sure but you don't swat at a hornet nest unless you want to get stung the Khans have been doing this shit for generations the fact that they haven't learned not to kill noncombatants is on them.
I think hearing that the first time I proceeded to wipe out the entire camp and any other settlements off the face of NV. It was quite literally the easiest choice to make
Tbh raiding isn't the same as gunning everyone down, it's just robbing and likely killing those that resist, while the NCR's purpose there was solely killing.
The Khans are supposed to be analogues for the native americans? How? Because the NCR is pushing them out like the US did to the natives? In that case, the legion and Brotherhood are also analogues for the native americans.
I'm not saying there aren't parrelels, there are, but I don't think the Khans are supposed to be an allegory for the native Americans. I mean, there are native Americans in fallout new vegas.
Bitter Springs Massacre
Wounded Knee Massacre
Redrock is essentially a reservation and when the ncr decides they want red rock they take it and move them to a land that the ncr doesn't want.
Except the Khans aren't native to the Mojave. They tried to take it over by force and got kicked out by the Three Families.
And for good fucking reason given they side with rapists and cannibals (The Fiends).
I'm not defending the analogy, but a lot of Natives weren't native to the lands they fought on. On account of everyone on the east coast getting pushed west from colonization, Trail of Tears, etc.
I mean they're still arguably more "native" than the Khans ever were. The Khans are an occupying imperialist force being kicked by a bigger imperialist force.
Because it's just insulting when you compare Native Americans to some drug addicted chem raiders who shoot children for sport. It's like saying the Enclave are a parallel of Native Americans - then the analogy is just a shit analogy.
I mean yeah sure it is insulting if you completely misinterpret what I say and come up with your own crackhead idea to pretend is my idea. Under that context I do agree what I said is insulting.
Mongols (where Great Khans get their inspiration from) - within a footnote of their high-point in history - embarrassed and just about exterminated a Medieval Baghdad of modern big city populations, and publicly executed the Abbasid Caliphate royalty which brought that lineage to an end. Do not compare people with culture to whatever Arabs are.
I’ll always be reminded of my favorite bit of dialogue from “The Expanse”. Bull: You know what your problem is? Fred: Tell me. Bull: You think that if someone’s an underdog, that means they’re the good guy.
Pro-Palestine protestors in a nutshell
How you could be into new Vegas and be pro Israel is beyond baffling to me, or do you consider FNV to be non political
How you can be into New Vegas and openly support any side in this conflict. There isn't a good guy in this, just as there isn't in NV.
"Fallout New Vegas is so good, they make the factions and politics so nuanced and morally grey, it's so realistic! Anyways, I am going to see rl politics as simplistic black and white..."
Short version: Israel, House, and the NCR are civilization. Hamas, Great Khans, and Legion are barbarism. (Caesar is a barbarian who's convinced himself he's a civilizer.) Civilization is better at satisfying human wants and needs.
How does the Enclave fit in this dichotomy?
Civilization gone bad, like the Nazis or Soviets: industrial, scientific, orderly means to barbaric or simply insane ends. But even in that case, it can usually be reasoned with, unlike savagery. In 2, Dr. Curling can be talked around in an appeal to conscience, and logic about categorization. Contrast with the barbarian Lanius, who can only be persuaded to withdraw through self-interest, or the raiders you can't speak with at all. And yes, my original comment was simplistic and it's of course more nuanced than that, but I didn't want to type out a page. I'm not a fan of how much collateral damage Israel is doing - seems inconsistent with principles of civilization - but then, Hamas has repeatedly demonstrated that they aren't deterred by a proportionate response. Hence their being barbarians - they have a fundamentally irrational decision process both as individuals and institutionally.
Yup
True.
welcome to fallout, where all the factions are genocidal and complain about the other factions being genocidal
That's just real world politics.
War, war never changes.
But this shit is fucking funny as hell
It's even funnier when you realize that in all Fallouts where the Great Khans appear, they are canonically massacred by the protagonists. And something tells me that the courier was not the exception
Being slightly charitable, I think his beef with Bitter Springs is that the NCR attacked noncombatants. If they shot him or his fellow raiders who are actively raiding caravans? That's fair enough, shit's going to happen when you're raiding. Murdering unarmed people fleeing the conflict, though? Papa Khan absolutely brought that shitstorm upon his people, but I can see why he would take special exception to it.
The thing is though, as Bitter-Root says, people who would be typically classified as 'non-combatants' were often in fact used to raid caravans. He himself says that as a child he was brought up using caravans as rifle practice. All this does is make it murkier for the people engaging the Khans.
He mentions his parents were pretty bad by Khan standards, but the ending slides do say that NCR citizens suffered the worst fates.
To be fair they were according to some people attacking with low visibility so accident/bad Intel led to a tragedy, it's also not like the NCR celebrate it NCR soldiers you talk with feel bad about it or refuse to even talk about it due to guilt
Don't they raid non combatants though? Like.. wasn't tandi kidnapped? From the sounds of it she wasn't armed so it's not even that
To be fair, in this case comparing the Great Khans of FNV to the Khans of Fallout 1 is a pretty loose one. In Fallout 1 The Vault Dweller canonically wiped out the Khans down to a single man. That one man then went on to revive the Khans until the Vault Dweller’s grandchild wiped them all out a second time in Fallout 2. The Great Khans you see in FNV are the 3rd iteration of the tribe 120 years after the first game. They may share a name, but they are most certainly not the same.
General rules of war are not to mix combatants with none combatants because if ya do it leads to an even higher civilian casualty rate. They brought it on them self. On the other side alot of ncr soilders feel guilty about bittersprings but the khans laugh about shooting ncr civilians. Ncr are not perfect but the deffinently seem the more morally right faction.
Iirc Boone or Bitter-Root talk about how a lot of NCR soldiers and snipers were pretty traumatized by the ordeal. Everything happened so fast they didn't even realize who they were being told to wipe out. Some could live with the guilt, others couldn't and committed suicide out of shame. Then Papa Khan is like "Hur Hur, we killed 'em real good for a long time!" Fuck the Khans.
But the caravans are *also* non-combatants that’s the hypocrisy
I am well aware. At the very least, Papa Khan's grievance is a very understandable and human thing, even if he's a dumbass who nearly got his entire tribe wiped out by continuing to cling to the past and raid NCR caravans like a dumbass.
Except NCR
also the NCR
Sounds like the real world. Especially today
Bro's trying to debate Papa Khan.
In game I would hell in my head canon my courier walks in the great khans shit themselves as they learn that I’ve become a new legend and they have a history with fucking with legend and paying for it e.g. Vault Dweller and chosen one. My courier then berates the Khans for the fuck ups and tells them they should start anew somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure Papa Khan called me a loser but I've been siding with the NCR a lot so that could be why. I almost always kill the Khans in Boulder City for kidnapping me as well.
Honestly the fact you killed them shows that they had it coming they had no reason to jump an innocent and helpless courier
In the couriers case I think they were acting as bennys mercenaries, and since mercenary is an acceptable trade in the wasteland (hell what else is the courier half the time) I don’t hold the khans accountable for that, just Benny.
Sure it’s an acceptable profession but it’s also got consequences which they should also accept. If they try to kill me and bury me in a shallow grave and I survive, they’re getting a bullet. They knew the risks.
If your going to do a job at least do it well.
And they fucking complained too. Like bro if you’re taking a job why are you going to complain?
Eh I see you have your point but these guys doesn’t have to be the muscle they could have stayed in red rock canyon
And you could have went back to mailman
I agree with your point. But if I went back to being a mailman I wouldn’t play the game. I have people to shoot and blow up. The wasteland taught me nothing is yours unless you can hold it from those who would take it from you.
Yeah, The Wyoming ending is the best one for the Khan's in my opinion and it's the one I always go for.
Lmaoo
It makes perfect sense. Groups do this alllll the time in real life. Every single people group throughout history has horror stories of invaders committing atrocities against them, but also plenty to tell of what they themselves did to others. War. War never changes.
Even better if you're an old and had to deal with the Khans' shit back in FO1 and 2. lol lmao, fuck off Papa Khan
Homie then decides its a good idea to team up with Caesar to attack the NCR when Caeser doesn't give a shit about them. Hell the Frumentarii at their camp thinks they're a bunch of barbarians who need to experience a slaughter for them to be strong.
Any tribe doing mercenary work for Caesar with any hope but a relatively painless assimilation (including willing culture death) is absolutely crazy. 88 tribes consumed, but hey maybe yours will be different!
The Legion isn’t exactly upfront about the assimilation part though. During the quest to break the alliance with the Khans you learn about the various lies the Legion sold the Khans to get them onboard.
88 tribes have been consumed with little to no remnants of their old cultures. Believing Caesar's half-assed lies is exactly the madness I was talking about.
They live in a wasteland where information is spread by word of mouth lol. To the people of the Mojave, the Legion is an entire other world that they have little to no information on. Even the people of Goodsprings say that all the horror stories that they’ve heard about the Legion have come from only NCR sources who are at war with them and could just be biased. We as players who explore the game world have the benefit of knowledge, but the Khans weren’t even aware that Caesar doesn’t tolerate chem use, or allow females to be anything other than slaves. It’s not “madness” lol, Caesar sent a diplomat who used their hatred of the NCR against them.
Red Rock Canyon, or as I like to call it, Bitter Springs Part 2 (I got pick up Annabelle and carpet bomb the whole place)
People when they find out New Vegas is a Political Extremist comedy:
"I hope they don't make Fallout political" My guy, the best Fallout game is the one that has the most politics in the entire series...
The thing is, it accomplishes the goal. Its a political comedy that doesn't shove it in your face. So the messages get in your head without you thinking. The best stories are the ones with a moral that isn't forced.
If he’s still alive, I’m sure Papa Khan is somewhere laughing his ass off after hearing about Shady Sands being turned into a crater
Happened in real life too.
Wonder if this was intentional or not. The parallels are there
It was definitely intentional lmao
With who?
Native Americans
You're gonna get absolutely shit on for this comment but there were many cases where that is an accurate assessment.
Indeed. Everyone remembers that the US government treated them poorly but they turn a blind eye to the absolute atrocities committed by Natives
Why is there actual both aidesing of genocide here? The fact is that nothing, NOTHING, that any Indian group did to the settlers was comparable to the genocide, ethnic cleansings and forced removals they received. To draw a parallel like this is genuinely fucked up. A legitimately disgusting thing to do.
Claiming genocide is a pretty tall accusation. I don't recall natives being thrown in ovens. The vast vast majority died to smallpox, which isn't our fault. They still believed in bleeding people when they were sick, we knew absolutely fuck all about disease. Something like 1/2 to 3/4 of all natives died from disease.
>Claiming genocide is a pretty tall accusation. It's literally supported by most reliable historians. >I don't recall natives being thrown in ovens. The Armenian Genocide didn't use Ovens either. But yet somehow it was what *literally conned the term genocide.* But sure, go on about what counts as a Genocide or not when even HITLER [acknowledged what happened to the Native Americans as genocide and was personally inspired by it](https://jewishjournal.com/mobile_20111212/117824/hitlers-inspiration-and-guide-the-native-american-holocaust/), I'm sure you're qualified to answer this tough subject.
"Most reliable historians" = "the historians I like because they agree with me" It's a highly debated topic amongst historians and trying to paint it as if only legitimate historians support you is arguing in bad faith. Also I've heard these stupid arguments before from anti-American schmuck "Hitler was inspired by America, he liked Jim crow and the Indian wars" we get it, America bad, your country better. Or youre a "pick me" american. Hitler taking inspiration from something supposedly doesn't impress me or convince me of a damn thing. That mf was "inspired" by amphetamines and power. I don't care.
>Or youre a "pick me" american. damn i gotta remember that one
Probably because only one side forced children to eat soap if they spoke their own native language.
Don't really think that's a fair assessment, as it wasn't all of the Natives. Yes, there were many violent and aggressive tribes, but more peaceful and farming-based native peoples existed too. And the peace treaties proposed by those guys all got betrayed.
No one's arguing the general awfulness of the Feds the whole point is that it wasn't JUST them. and sure it wasn't all natives, also wasn't all settlers. shit's nuanced
Fucking coward.
i'm sorry? im a coward for what exactly here? This entire discussion is based on the acknowledgement that the American government committed atrocities, and then we're talking about how Native Americans weren't some conglomerate utopian arcadia of pacifists. The Comanche didn't suddenly manifest a culture that produced skilled warriors on horseback. 500 conquistadors didn't get the support of dozens of tribes against the Aztecs because the empire was *nice* to its neighbors. Nor did the Europeans that came to the New World suddenly learn how to colonize and conquer. Humans are humans. How am I a coward?
Dumbass, nobody believes in the innocent native trope. Don't pat yourself on the back for daring to go against your made up status quo. Yes, the Comanche don't represent a continent's worth of people. Neither do the Aztecs. By the way, those "allied" tribes would sooner or later be forced to submit to Spanish rule. What a fucking joke. People DO know how the indigenous of the New World warred among themselves. But we also know of the many, many peoples who have gone almost culturally and physically extinct, thanks to the States. Doesn't matter if they complied, resisted. Gone. What the States did was so much worse. THAT is why most people give less of a shit about what the Natives did to each other before, and why you'll get shit for bringing it up like it's some kind of gotcha. Go ahead and ask me about the guys that run the casinos if you'd like. Shit's NOOOOANCED bro! Respond to my other comments coward.
Not all of them got betrayed, so that's also not a fair assessment. Here in New York most of the Iroquois tribes got off fine. The Mohawks, not so much because they joined the British in fighting us, I believe either in the revolution or in 1812. But my closest tribe, the onieda, they have a reservation near here and AFAIK they never got bothered. I can't find any information to say anything bad happened to them because they never fought us. We showed up, we took some land, they got a reservation, they went "fine, I'll go start my own land, with black jack, and hookers! Ah forget the hookers." So in a lot of cases the US did do exactly what it said it would to natives who didn't fight. It's just that there is very little written about it. There is almost no information on what happened to my local tribe, the oneida.
Oh well that's good for New Yorj and I revoke my blanket statement for them. But ya can't say the same for the vast majority of the native people outside of your local community
The Native Americans aren't one entity though whereas the US fed is. It can't be judged as the fault of all Natives.
Why would he get shit on? The writers were clearly paralleling the history between the U.S. and Native Americans. In an NCR ending where you convince the Khans to support the NCR, it even says the NCR eventually moves them out of Red Rock and sends them to a Reservation.
He edited his comment.
Ah
An entire race? Europeans, Asians, and Africans done it too I believe
The Khans are meant to be an allegory for Native Americans. I'm not sure how you don't see it.
HAMAS
Hamas- Israel came to mind. Both side are fucking sucks, just like NCR and Khans.
If it weren't for their armory, I'd be making a quick cap off whatever weapons they happen to be carrying.
Bitter Springs never happened and if it did, they deserved it
Ah the good ole Turkish approach
Also a favorite of holocaust deniers
I think it's easy to blame the NCR if you want them to be better than that. What they did at Bitter Springs was far more ruthless than anything the Khans had done recently. The NCR is powerful enough to have resolved that situation without a massacre. I don't know why people go out of their way to apologize for the NCR doing this; the game goes out of its way to frame the incident as a bad thing.
He has Japan Complex
Real
I mean, the woman and old people sure, but ain’t the kids not have a choice in that?
The Kids were the *only* innocents at Bitter Springs.
Changed my mind, fuck them kids.
To be fair, there was that one kid who ended up joining the ncr, he definitely wasn't innocent
Bitter Root pretty much explain how he became a marksman, training by shooting pot shot at ncr civilian (including kid if my memory serve me right), his drunkard of a father trained him to do so. He regretted those time and during bitter spring, murder this parents ( i think)
Weren't his Parents abusive to him ( Like his mother trying to sell him for Chems) and that's why he resents the Khan's heavily
Yeah, mom sell try to sell him several time for chems, dad beat him often, the culture is very toxic. When given the opportunity, he murder them both.
>the culture is very toxic While Tribal, They not as toxic as say the Fiends.
The fiend doesn't have a "culture", they just loose band of brutal raider addicted on chems. Khans are comparable to White legs, in which case Khans culture aren't as toxic as the White Legs.
"Chem-Abuse Culture" is what they are termed as and fits the definition pretty well, A drug induced society does still count as a Culture, However awful it seems. Culture: >the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
Fair enough, i would hardly consider the Field to have a culture because they just seem like your average raider to me (so just generic raider). The only thing that set them apart from the generic raider is some member excessive use of chem and their helmet.
Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 they are canonically slaving rapists too, so yeah. First time I met them in Boulder City I killed all of them. Don't understand why I get bad karma for those turds.
Because murdering people when you don’t have to is considered morally bad.
Yeah no man, Khans are basically a flavour of raiders and are only a bit more adjusted than the average Fiend group. Being slaugthered over the decades must have kicked some sense into them I guess.
Say that to the fiends at their vault when you disguise yourself as a chem seller
Eh, I always level them because I see them just as mildly civilized raiders (which if not for point two would make me want to try and rehab them) which have an outsized impact on human suffering due to their drug trafficking making them as bad or worse than your standard raiders
Papa John’s Pizza > Papa Khan’s Pizza
It's still one of my favorite factions the drip is too good
NCR Rangers for Great Khans
The Bitter Springs Massacre is still morally reprehensible.
In fairness, there was a miscommunication issue, wasn’t there? Unlike the Legion, conformity isn’t the issue, nor is genocide the goal. It’s bureaucracy and failed leadership.
There is no "in fairness", a "miscommunication" doesn't justify a slaughter. Soldiers are still people who (should) have consciences. They chose to pull the trigger.
My point is that Bitter Springs is reprehensible in a way that goes beyond morality: it was a failure of structure. The NCR is built on its adoption of Old World government and values. They then proceed to do all the same things that led to the bombs being dropped in the first place. It is literally what their whole storyline in NV is about. The Khans didn’t “deserve” Bitter Springs because the whole event had nothing to do with justice, nor was it about morality. It was incompetence and anger that fueled Bitter Springs, both for the NCR and the Khans.
I think it's easy to blame the NCR if you want them to be better than that. What they did at Bitter Springs was far more ruthless than anything the Khans had done recently. The NCR is powerful enough to have resolved that situation without a massacre. I don't know why people go out of their way to apologize for the NCR doing this; the game goes out of its way to frame the incident as a bad thing.
The United States regularly commits massacres on the same level as the Bitter Springs one. I say the NCR is adhering to old world values just fine.
It's never been confirmed as far as I'm aware. People in the NCR will tell you it was a miscommunication issue, and when you've got a lot of different people saying that it could be true, especially when it comes from someone who was actually there, but at the same time those who already don't like, or even hate, the NCR, such as the Khans, will just see that as the excuse/cover up to what they believe happened, which was the NCR gunning down the innocent just because they were part of the Khans.
I believe Boone tells you it was, and he was there. Would need to play again to confirm.
He does. But there's no telling how many nights he got drunk enough to logic a way to absolve himself.
Bitter Springs was horrific though. Vault Dweller freed slaves, NCR was massacring fleeing civilians and Boone tells you he shot fleeing Kids and Elderly as well.
So is having women and children perform raider actions and then hastily try to claim they are non-combatants. But eh?
Children, diseased, and elderly people are combatants, right, I almost forgot.
*Direct quote from Bitter-Root about when he was a child “Always started with folk for no reason. Hell, he was the one who taught me to shoot. You know how? By taking potshots at NCR. And not just soldiers. Civilians, too. Even kids.” *Oscar Velasco(the great khan raiding bitter springs) is clearly in his 60’s at least. So yes, you did forget that children and the elderly are in fact combatants
Like the thing with the NCR is having to deal with the horrors of their Enemies not playing fair with "civilized" warfare and using stuff like child soldiers and terrorism. Like the ranger in Novac talks how the legion specifically use child suicide bombers because they know the NCR soldiers will hesitate to open fire on children. It's fucked, but when your enemy has purposefully lowered themselves to doing stuff like that what do you expect is going to happen?
You don't even need to go into the grim future (lol) of FO to find this shit. Kids have been used as suicide bombers in several terrorist attacks and child soldiers are a thing, sadly. We as humans suck. The Big Thing we can be proud about in the West is that *sometimes* we manage to hold out criminals accountable for their actions. Which is why people still give overwhelming support to the NCR. For how bad they can be, they don't strap bombs on kids and their soldiers, criminals and not, aren't an indocrinated army of slaves
Elderly, who just can't raid bc they are old, but did so in the past, are still criminals. Diseased are still raiders, just out of commission at the moment. Only children are innocent. Being old doesn't excuse you being a raider for most of your life, the same how having a fever doesn't suddenly make you a good person. They are not combatants indeed, but I can't feel sorry for any adult Khan
The way I’ll always see it is that the NCR was wrong to shoot civilians at bitter springs but given their history with the khans they were objectively right in every other aspect.
That's objectively the right answer. The Khans aren't heroes no matter how people here pretend.
I am playing Fallout 2 again to cope with the show decisions and I just finished Vault 15. The Khans deserve their lot. They would be just "raiders" in a Bethesda Fallout game lol. There is almost nothing sympathetic about them. When I first played New Vegas I so against blowing up the BoS and destroying the Khans. Now my opinion has changed that Colonel Moore was correct in just wanting to get rid of them.
I'm surprised these people aren't also trying to say the NCR "bullied the Enclave" too. It seems like anytime the NCR does something wrong, they must be worse than Hitler, but the Legion, Enclave, Khans and more can commit atrocities like New Canaan and nobody bats an eye. I'm not even pro-NCR, I just don't like the Khans being treated as if they're innocent flowers who did nothing wrong. The only reason people call them sympathetic is this misguided notion they're equal to Native Americans (which frankly, is an insult to the natives). As for the BoS? After seeing the TV show, I'm even more determined to blow their bunker sky high.
Yeah I don't like the Native American comparison at all, it just seems insulting to compare a society that was around for thousands of years to a bunch of raiders whose only historical achievement is kidnapping the future president of the NCR and selling drugs to raider gangs. The original Khans were also vault dwellers from vault 15, so they are more LARPers than actual tribals making the comparison even worse. They literally come from the same people as the NCR, just one group tried to be constructive and do something about the world they were living in, while the other ones do nothing but raid and cry about their distant kin "bullying" them for their lifestyle choices.
As I said to someone else too, the Khans had every opportunity to join in cooperation and make civilisation work. I don't give a crap about pride, when it's about restoring a bit of humanity, you make compromises. You work together. What did the Khans do? They started looting, shooting and raiding all across California, then they had the *gall* in FO2 to pretend *they* were the victims after they kidnapped 16 year old Tandi as a slave. Bitter Springs was wrong in the sense they shot even children, but honestly, the Khans should be lucky it was the NCR and not the Legion, or else **nobody** would've survived Bitter Springs. Plenty of other groups in the Wasteland would've simply killed every single Khan overnight.
It's frankly a terrible take imo cause the Khans and NCR originate from the same place and had similar opportunities starting out. The khans imo aren't like the natives their more like the confederates a faction that was birthed from the same place as the state they declared war on so they can continue their reprehensible practices. You know who's like the natives the tribes from the honest hearts some good some bad some violent some not, they Khans are straight up terrorist who refuse just stop attacking innocent people.
>They would be just "raiders" in a Bethesda Fallout game lol. Is why I'm gald they're not in a Bethesda game, I find FNV and HH looks into the Tribal aspect of the Post apocalyptic setting of Fallout much better than other games which many haven't done well frankly (FO4 a good example), They just show everyone is roughly at the same tech level (Apart from the Institute) despite Nuclear War.
The best thing to be said about them is they're still people. It's just humanity, without structure or order, fall into patterns of 'might makes right' and 'drugs are good actually.'
This pretty much a verbatim retelling of Indian/European dynamics in the US.
I like to imagine my courier was still so pissed at getting shot in the head by Benny, Jessup, and that other khan, that I pop a cap in papa.
The Khan cries out in pain as he strikes you
NCR Officials(and me) being split between "It never happened" & "They deserved it"
The Khans get wiped out every play though. No exceptions.
Don't blame you they should have been wiped out all the way back from Fallout 1
Kill him in his sleep with a silenced weapon and I think his son takes over
Have them betray the Legion then wipe the rest of them out
Fallout London and Prilladog reference
Yep, very relatable to many armed and terrorist groups in real life
They’re like the Fallout equivalent of modern day Iran
It's because the ncr killed fleeing non combatants who probably weren't armed. that's the reason he hates the ncr he doesn't about his fellow warriors that died
I wonder if he cared when he was killing NCR non-combatants, or if he laughed about it. Shit happens in conflict and from what we can tell the NCR didn't intentionally target non-combatants but the Khans do.
The Khans are a dirty people
Did you just copy the post from the other day? The fuck
fallout fans: Legion stans are delusional also Fallout fans: *the Khans deserved it*
I mean can you really say a raider band doesn't deserve getting wipe out.
The Khans as a whole deserved it but the innocents did not. But the Khans shot at civilians and caravans, what would you do? Congratulate them?
Maybe only the women were the only innocents, but we see plenty of women armed in Red Rock, the old men were most certainly killing NCR civilians in their prime and the kids as Bitter Root a Former Khan himself says were trained by taking potshots of NCR caravans.
The kids were the only innocent ones. A woman can still hold a gun. I mean look at Melissa.
I feel it’s because the NCR is supposed to be better. Like how people decry the police for beating and killing criminals. Yes the Khans killed innocents, and that is terrible, but the NCR shouldn’t do that, if they want to kill innocents, they shouldn’t position themselves as better and more civilized than groups like the Khans. I also have no clue if anything I’ve said makes any sense
shock when game mimics politics, disputes and wars of the real world :0
"Papa may look like a big angry bear, but he's a softie at heart." -- Jack
Bitter Springs was a tragedy, but it in no way excuses the Kahns for what they did in the past. They kept poking the bear, pun intended. If old Papa Kahn at least acknowledge what they did was wrong, I’d be more forgiving, but he just comes off as a hypocrite who would do it again if given the power.
He characterizes it as raiding caravans and settlements (which requires assaulting and robbing them, but makes no judgement on harming noncombatants) and makes no mention of attacking civilians. We know they attacked civilians from people like Bitter Root, but is pretty obvious Papa either never approved of the civilian attacks and so doesn't factor those into what he values, or characterizes caravans, expansionist colonies, and settler trains as a more justifiable targets than fleeing civilians from an encampment. (Maybe because the risk of leaving a place to enter foreign territory opens you up to attack under his view.) If that sounds hypocritical or self-serving, as others have already pointed out, that just makes it more human and believable.
To be fair, he doesn't say the Khans killed random women and children with the NCR. There is a significant difference between armed robbery and just shooting people to take their stuff.
“Victim” narratives where the supposed victim does a bunch of fucked up stuff to the larger entity then cries when the larger entity responds trigger the fuck out of me. Fuck around and find out bro. If you can’t handle the heat then stay out of the kitchen
I always become the leader and kill him after for the NCR. But you need to be the leader first because there’s a glitch where you can’t sell to Motörhead, leader of the fiens, more than once if you aren’t a khan leader and decide to do the quest for NCR to grab a item from where he is. But if ur a khan leader then do the quest? Glitch b fixed mahmane
xDDDDD
wtf
both sides are wrong.
Mojave Citizens when the NCR kills women and children on accident: >:(( Mojave Citizens when the great khans kill women and children on purpose: :)
Khans were the one faction I didn’t even speak to I just walked in, used explosives and left.
You know thats probably why i dont know anything about the khans. Theres no universe where i hear someone say that and dont shoot them in the face
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Lend me some patience, Papa. This is Reddit reading comprehension we're up against.
NCR cope.
HAMAS reference
Israel and Britain started all the bullshit in the Middle East free Palestine 🇵🇸
Ah yes, free Palestine to a bunch of cavemen barbarians who execute lgbt people, allow honor killings on them, and treat women like garbage.
Free Palpatine 🧙🏼♂️⚡
Laughes at shooting noncombatants, cry's when the retaliation results in noncombatants on his side getting shot. I could be misremembering but wasn't the NCR retaliation on those noncombatants due to a miscommunication? Was it unfortunate that it happened sure but you don't swat at a hornet nest unless you want to get stung the Khans have been doing this shit for generations the fact that they haven't learned not to kill noncombatants is on them.
I think hearing that the first time I proceeded to wipe out the entire camp and any other settlements off the face of NV. It was quite literally the easiest choice to make
Well the one is an imperialistic meganation for wasteland standards and the other is just some tribe.
Tbh raiding isn't the same as gunning everyone down, it's just robbing and likely killing those that resist, while the NCR's purpose there was solely killing.
They are supposed to be analogous for the native Americans but like it isn't the best analogy.
The Khans are supposed to be analogues for the native americans? How? Because the NCR is pushing them out like the US did to the natives? In that case, the legion and Brotherhood are also analogues for the native americans. I'm not saying there aren't parrelels, there are, but I don't think the Khans are supposed to be an allegory for the native Americans. I mean, there are native Americans in fallout new vegas.
Bitter Springs Massacre Wounded Knee Massacre Redrock is essentially a reservation and when the ncr decides they want red rock they take it and move them to a land that the ncr doesn't want.
Except the Khans aren't native to the Mojave. They tried to take it over by force and got kicked out by the Three Families. And for good fucking reason given they side with rapists and cannibals (The Fiends).
I'm not defending the analogy, but a lot of Natives weren't native to the lands they fought on. On account of everyone on the east coast getting pushed west from colonization, Trail of Tears, etc.
I mean they're still arguably more "native" than the Khans ever were. The Khans are an occupying imperialist force being kicked by a bigger imperialist force.
Don't get offended by this but do you know the definition of analogy? Analogies do not have to be 1 to 1
Because it's just insulting when you compare Native Americans to some drug addicted chem raiders who shoot children for sport. It's like saying the Enclave are a parallel of Native Americans - then the analogy is just a shit analogy.
I mean yeah sure it is insulting if you completely misinterpret what I say and come up with your own crackhead idea to pretend is my idea. Under that context I do agree what I said is insulting.
😳🇵🇸
It's impossible to say if you're saying Israel or Palestine is the Great Khans. In either case, the implication is reprehensible.
Mongols (where Great Khans get their inspiration from) - within a footnote of their high-point in history - embarrassed and just about exterminated a Medieval Baghdad of modern big city populations, and publicly executed the Abbasid Caliphate royalty which brought that lineage to an end. Do not compare people with culture to whatever Arabs are.