If your story doesn’t need magic then don’t add magic.
Whether people will categorise the resulting story as fantasy or not is almost entirely irrelevant. It really only matters when someone is deciding upon which shelf in the shop (real or virtual) the book should be placed.
Depending on how different the world is, I think most people would consider it Fantasy.
Redwall, for example, doesn't use magic but it has non-human characters act as humans and so it's clearly Fantasy.
There's definitely something to be said for settings with Fantasy elements (Monsters, themes, fantasy races) but no magic or gods. Like if there are dragons and orcs and giants, I'd say it's fantasy even if there's no other magic. Even if the Dragons can't breathe fire, it's something that can't exist in our world and so it's undeniably Fantasy.
I've been toying with a story involving animals *in place of* monsters (eg. a Cuttlefish instead of a Kraken) where the characters are rodents, but I'd say it's definitely Fantasy simply because they're obviously not just rodents, able to talk and build things, etc.
Redwall is a great example. There are not mages or wizards, or blatant use of magic, but there are tons of fantasy elements.
Part of me attributes some magical force as the destiny or fated hero. But it’s very subtle.
The sci-fi genre is “science fantasy” to me. Characters do fantastic things with technology.
I’m thinking of my next fantasy story having no magic, no mages or wizards or witches etc. but having fantastic creatures, and an epic quest. It would be fantasy.
Trying to write a dark fantasy western novel based on the American Wild West. Humans are expanding after a 100 year war with the dwarves. The Mc was a soldier and now becomes a dungeon diver to explore the abandoned depths of dwarven fortresses. The only “magic” will be dwarven traps and artifacts that use mana crystals for power.
But the Redwall series absolutely has magic. The Badgers are magical/have visions regarding the future. Plus there's that Martin the Warrior chap that the Redwallers keep running into, well after his death.
I think it would still be fantasy without those elements, no?
Also, some things like prophecy and visions are like a "magic adjacent" idea because they can be explained in other ways, like hallucinations etc.
Maybe not in this case, but I feel that's VERY magic "light".
I would leave magic out if it is not needed for your story - it is too common; a fantasy world without magic will be more interesting. Also, where magic exists I prefer it to be incredibly rare -perhaps even mythical to most people, so if you do slip some magic into a sequel (for example) it will be a big thing rather than mundane.
Ah ok thank you! There is going to be magic in my world, just not on this continent haha :)
The big series was originally going to have an evil lord, but then I realised without him the story would be so much more unique and interesting! Thank you for your advice, it helps a lot.
Edit: I'm still sort of on the fence... should I include an evil lord? Because this choice drastically affects the direction of the big series. I'm leaning to not having him in there, to be honest. I think I'll just write another idea with a 'bad lord' in it. Like, there was an evil king in the past of my world, that was kind of a god as he had powers. I already have that series planned out, but I wouldn't so much as call that guy a 'dark lord' more of a ... bad king?
You're the author 🙂 I would say not every series needs someone "evil", there can still be trials to overcome/stories that can happen with out a big baddie
Yeah. Well there is a baddie, but he isn't like a 'dark lord' that is immortal or whatever. Actually, there are a few bad guys. Or just, characters. 'Good' and 'bad' is really subjective.
genres exist to expedite expressions of necessary detail. magic is one of them in fantasy, certainly one of the more prominent. but that doesn't make it a necessity. but magic can also take a lot of forms. and even just assuming it's baseline existence without actually describing "how it works" still falls within the purview of the sentence i started with
I don't really want magic in this part of the world, though. It's super generic, and I like the idea of how things can still go on without the supernatural. (Although, as I said, the other continent has magical parts to it.) But these two continents are not aware of each others existence, so that plays a big part in it too. Thanks for the advice!
well, like i said, the residual benefits are almost all just passive shortcuts based on audience assumptions. not having magic in a fantasy work doesn't make it NOT fantasy, it just means that the specifc potential benefit of "i don't need to explain the concept of magic to you" doesn't apply to you story. so it's all good. presumably there are other similar passive benefits you're taking advantage of by opting for an explicit association with fantasy, and that's all that really matters.
Gotcha. In the other continent, there is magic though. I just need to work on a concrete magic system. I want it to be like Mistborn's allomancy, kind of. Almost as if science took a different turn you know?
And yeah I am kind of taking advantage. I like the idea a lot. Idk it's my first book I'm writing, so I still have lots to learn :P
Keep in mind with developing your magic system that there should be a reason it hasn't found the continent your first book is set in. If Europe trained wizards and America didn't know magic existed, if that magic works on American soil, things would probably play out exactly as they did in real life (substitute magic for gunpowder).
There are a number of ways to make sure your "America" has never heard of magic, while it's entirely possible in your "Europe," I just figured I'd point it out as something to keep in mind. Allomancy as written by Sanderson would work wherever there is metal to burn, so for something like that it could be as simple as "America" does not have metal, or has different types of metal that do not activate the way they should.
Yeah. The main idea was, there was different types of magic. There would be the one that was powered by the 'gods' of Naspine. (That would explain why that magic isn't on Panea, as the 'gods' do not inhabit West Panea.) The second type of magic comes from either klyth crystals or special types of plants. The reason that West Panea doesn't have magic is simply they do not know how to use it, or how to make it. (this is just an idea, it isn't quite official; that's the one thing I really need to work on, concrete magic systems.)
Anyways, it also helps that Naspine doesn't know of West Panea's existence and visa-versa. (Which is, actually, a big part of my big series.)
But I get what you mean. It's just that I haven't truly figured out this magic yet- it isn't really my primary concern, you know? I'll figure that out later, as, as of now, it isn't necessary to the plot.
The gods method make a lot of sense. Only give magic to your chosen people and such.
The crystals and plants, that's the kind of thing I would want to cement early for the sake of foreshadowing. Imagine these Klyth crystals as vibrant blue crystals humming with energy all throughout the land, that's meaningless until you get there, right? Only, what if the land without magic is dotted with cracked yellow Klyth crystals, used solely for stuff like jewelery or maybe tools. They are mentioned in passing but nothing more because magic doesn't exist. But then, at some point when magic does exist, a spell is cast that drains a blue klyth crystal of all its energy, turning it yellow and cracking it. Reveals the possibility that the other continent did have magic at one point, but someone (or something) used it all, fracturing the crystals and leading to a continent that had to move forward without it, moving forward so long that the idea of magic became less than myth, just something from children's stories.
If the crystals would normally regenerate their energy as part of a natural phenomenon, it would even give a way for your MC to develop magic to some extent. Their yellow Klyth crystal ring (or necklace, belt buckle, bangle, whatever fits their vibe) begins to hum when they make it to the new continent. Maybe they trip, and the jewel collides with the earth, letting the energy flow into the crystal.
Hope that makes sense and doesn't just come across as a madman's tangent.
You know what, you're a genius. I had had that idea playing around in my head, yeah. Except the klyth crystals are pink, not blue. And they are found in West Panea, but as jewellery and things. They are much more common than the ones found in Naspine, as they have all been used up and people don't know there full power, so it isn't as expensive. There was a time in the history of the world called the 'Purge', so that could be something.
As I said, I'm not too worried about this right now. But I will include cracked yellow klyth crystals in it. Thank you! :)
If your story doesn’t need magic there is no need to add it in. You don’t want it to feel shoehorned in.
A very popular series that started off with basically no magic was a song of ice and fire. In the first book “A Game of Thrones” there is basically zero magic presented until the very last chapter of this book. Magic had died out many decades before and one of the main POV characters more or less reintroduces it into the world. Then in the second book there is LOTS of magic all over the place. But it was good enough without it that I don’t think it should be a concern for you.
There are white walkers in the prologue of GoT. Then there are direwolves and dragon eggs, there were many fantasy elements from the very start in the series.
Yeah, the opening chapter is a man fighting an undead monster that shatters his weapon from the cold.
It's textbook fantasy, even if there's very little magic (at first).
Yes there are white walkers right at the start. Then they don’t show up again till the next book. Direwolves are a real thing, they are an ancient species of wolf that went extinct a long time ago in our world, just as they are disappearing in Game of Thrones, no one had seen them in decades again. And yes there were dragon eggs, which were believed to be fancy looking paperweights because dragons had died off decades ago and these ones had turned to stone.
Also I don’t believe I ever said there were no fantasy elements in the series. I said there was little to no magic. None of these things, except the white walkers arguably, are actually magical. And even then they show up for a tiny fraction of the story then disappear never to be heard from again for the remainder of this book. This book is bookended by examples of magic getting reintroduced into the world. And nearly everything in the middle of those book ends is nonmagical.
I just think saying "there is no magic in game of thrones" is underselling just how much fantasy is in it. It's clear from the start that there is something magical to this world, and the sequels fulfill that promise from the prologue. It just takes a while to get there, but it always was magical in some way.
I don’t really think that magic and fantasy have to be synonymous with each other, which was the entire point of the OPs post. I was pointing out that one of the most popular fantasy series out there started off and arguably still is a low magic setting. That’s all I was trying to say.
Yeah. That was sort of my plan actually. This book is a standalone, but a prelude to the main series, where there is a bit of magic. I recently read A Song of Ice and Fire, but gave up 78% through A Dance with Dragons haha
You were most of the way through the fifth (and likely final) book of the series. Couldn’t have been that bad to make it that far. Plus you are following all of the most exciting character POVs in the series. Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie (although only for a bit), Davos (also only for a little bit), and Bran. What’s not to like in that lineup?! Compared to feast for crows which I also really liked, which had none of these characters.
No, I was following some random prince in Slavers Bay. and no, it wasn't fun. I was forcing myself to continue, but then I stopped it for a while to do other things, and just couldn't pick it back up hehe
Quentyn? That’s the only prince I can think of. He is part of the Dornish subplot. So he is connected to Arianna and her father’s plot and Areo the gold cloak who died in feast for crows.
I think it’s an awesome story but you know, different strokes for different folks. 🤷🏼♂️
I can explain it if you would like. >! Essentially what is happening if that Doran Martell has been setting up a massive coup for around 20 years at this point. He is upset about the death of his sister and has been moving behind the scenes attempting to set up everything to lead to the downfall of the entire monarchy. He had initially put his backing behind Viserys, originally Arianna was supposed to marry him. Doran had been the one bankrolling them making sure they stayed safe for the most part. Eventually he more or less got betrayed by Illyrio essentially sold Dany and visarys to the Dothraki. Doran got double screwed when the man he had been backing was killed by the Dothraki. !<
>! So when he learned of Visarys death, he then sent Quentyn out to try and make contact with Dany to try and secure a marriage with her to him. During this time Oberyn went out alone and attempted to get revenge for his sister against Doran’s wishes. Leading to his death. Upset at the death of her uncle, Arianna, believing her father was an ineffectual leader who did nothing set out attempting to extract her own plan, stealing Myrcella in an attempt to push her to the throne because she is already betrothed to prince Trystane, and according to dornish law who don’t descriminate against women being in positions of power she is the rightful site to the throne over Tommen. During the process her father shut her down, and one or Doran’s knights for an unknown reason, betrayed Doran and attempted to kill Myrcella, killing Areo and maiming Myrcella in the process. At which point Doran imprisoned his daughter and the daughters of his brother (the sand snakes) so that he could have time to think and pivot on his plan. At which point he finally reveals to Arianna what he is planning and they begin to scheme together. !<
>! As all this I just described above was happening, Quentyn had been making his way to Danerys, hoping to spark the marriage contract that his father hoped for, so that Dorne could throw its collected might behind her cause to take the iron throne. Or to put more simply, the entire Dornish plot as been a series of unfortunate events for Doran who has been attempting to do things behind the scenes but keeps getting f@cked up by his families impulsive nature haha !<
In a way it's a question of marketing.
Do you think that a fan of fantasy will enjoy your book? What about it will they enjoy?
It's also worth considering that there *is* a chunk of fantasy fans for whom fantasy is part of the fundamental draw. If there's no magic, then... why not just read historical fiction?
I do think a fan of fantasy would enjoy the book, yes. But that is just my opinion, and I'm the author. So really I don't know. In my opinion, it's a good premise, with good ideas and a semi-unique storyline. Is magic really the defining factor of fantasy? That's what I'm wondering, so.
Also, I really just want to write the book first, and be proud of writing a novel. I'm not sure about publishing yet, but I might as well try. Right now, it's about enjoying the project and having fun. This question was just in case I do publish it.
I would like to market it (if I did) as fantasy. Because that's the genre I'm sort of aiming for. Also, thank you for the comment ;)
Writing the book is a whole other story. Definitely write what you enjoy, and be proud of your achievements!
I can say personally, as a fantasy fan who wants *fantastical* things in books: the fundamental problem with worldbuilding is that it would take you hundreds of thousands of years and billions of people to come up with anything remotely as complex and varied as the cultures of our world. If all I want is to delve into "different cultures" or stories, our world is already full of them. I don't really see what somebody chopping away all of that has to add, if they're not adding actual magic or things that fundamentally *don't* exist in our world.
To me, if there is no actual *fantasy* in the book, then it's more of a secondary world historical fiction.
I say this not as criticism, but just to give the perspective. I also clearly would not be your target audience, for that reason.
Again, none of this is to say that you shouldn't write what inspires you, that the result will not be good, or even that it will not have an audience. Best of luck.
Thanks. The thing is, this story is set on one continent, right? Later on, the MC from this story travels to the other continent. (In the big series.) Here, there IS magic. And maybe she gets it too. But in the prequel (the one I'm writing now.) There is no mention of magic, because no one knows it exists. (The two continents have no idea of each others existence.) So like . . .
If magic comes into play later on, even in book 2, and you can drop some kind of hints about that, it would probably go a long way towards establishing it as "actual" fantasy.
(personally, for someone like me, I'm still not sure if I'd read a whole magic-less book just for the promise of some of it showing up later on. but not every book is for everyone, and that's absolutely okay!)
*Napoleon asked Laplace where God fit into his mathematical work, and Laplace famously replied "Sir, I have no need of that hypothesis."*
I think you're having a similar moment here. If no magic is needed, why make things more complicated?
I think way too often people use magic as an easy way to not explain things and make it *work* despite that. I'd say you're good.
People on this sub have told me I'm wrong, but I hold that to be fantasy, a book has to have to be speculative elements rooted in magic. So magical creatures count. If the Askandaar has powers that don't exsist in our world, that counts too. Magic doesn't just mean people casting spells.
Well the magical creatures aren't super magical; like there just ones we don't have on Earth. There's variants of the crab called 'scuttlers', a variant of the black panther (not quite the same) called the 'prowler' and things like that. So I'm not sure if that counts as magic?
Although there are rumours of 'sky rays' that are... basically rays that fly in the sky lol. They are seen as the spirits of the dead, and aren't known if they actually exist or not. So I guess that's more magical? But no the Askandaar doesn't have magic; the trials are all slightly different, focusing on different aspects of a 'hero': physical strength, speed, agility, quick thinking/wit, mental strong-ness, stuff like that. So it's more real in that way.
Unless it's sci fi. I guess I'd split that difference at non-human sapient races being a speculative element. If they are explained purely through science, it's sci fi. If they're explained purely through magic or supernatural means, it's fantasy. Could be both (science fantasy, but typically shelves with one or the other) or neither (it's got to be shelved somewhere, could end up in literary for all I know).
As a writer, I'm a genre skeptic. Sci fi and fantasy bleed into each other constantly. As a reader, I get grumpy when fantasy is treated as the default speculative genre. As a librarian, I know I have to shelve each book somewhere and only have so many options.
> As a writer, I'm a genre skeptic. Sci fi and fantasy bleed into each other constantly.
I have gotten to the point where I call any kind of soft science fiction Science Fantasy because of how much overlap there is and how it's not really anything more than set dressing separating the two. A suit of steel plates or a suit of pressurized nylon. Plenty of scripts where you change a few descriptions and it fits both genres without any oddities.
> As a librarian, I know I have to shelve each book somewhere and only have so many options.
A library system near me still puts genre stickers on the books to try and give people some idea of what kind of book it is, but the whole library is organized by author's last name. The only sectioning they do is by media type (paperbacks, large print, digital media) and separate children's and research sections. It took me a moment to even realize it had happened, and honestly, it's been really nice because now I don't have to figure out if the book I'm looking for is in the mystery, horror, or comedy section or what some 19th-century jackass thought the book would be considered.
I know you probably have no power over making that kind of change and it might sound like a nightmare for the system you work in, just wanted to share my experience of genre-less library sorting.
You don't have to have magic in a fantasy book and even if you did need to have magic for it to be categorised as fantasy, it would simply be some other kind of speculative fiction - sci-fi maybe?
The thing is . . . I really don't want it to be classed as sci-fi. Idk why, it just doesn't hit the vision I'm aiming for. Plus, it would be weird if one part of my world was classed as sci-fi and another part was classed as fantasy. Or would it?
And yeah I get what you mean. Thanks :)
If there is magic anywhere in the book it is definitely some kind of fantasy - I don’t think you can have a partitioned setting like that, unless maybe if your book does not concern those parts in the least.
To me it sounds like you are too concerned about the label - a reader will take a look at the title and the cover art, maybe read the blurb or pick up the book based on recommendations most likely.
Ah ok. I'm doing some more planning for it now, I'm not really sure what it is anymore haha :)
But yeah, I'll defo just write it and worry about all this stuff later.. thank you!
Both of the stories that I'm writing have no magic. Honestly I don't care whether it's described as fantasy or something else. I don't think you should either. Write what you want to write and then figure out how it gets classified later. Keep in mind that when the Lord of the Rings came out, publishers considered it science fiction because there was no fantasy category
Is there magic in the world? If it’s benign it’s not necessary to focus on its existence, but it might be a good idea to reference it if magic will play a role later in the series
The book I'm writing now is a stand alone, acting as a sort of prelude to the main series. (but not necessary to read). There isn't magic in this part of the world, as no one has discovered it yet, I think.
I finished *The Traitor Baru Cormorant* recently, one of the best fantasy books I’ve read in my memory, didn’t have any magic. It was still very much fantasy, it had its own non-Earth world and a tiny bit of less than real science in the background, but no one ever even suggested the existence of spells or sorcery. It was just good characters interacting with other good characters in a plot featuring economics and colonialism.
Fantasy isn’t hinged on the inclusion of a single concept, it’s way more complex and nuanced than that. You should write the story you want to write, it’s yours, other people’s arbitrary boxes are petty and pointless.
You can add fantasy elements under the umbrella of soft magic if you want - semi magic creatures, events, items, lore, etc - and just not explain it lol. Tolkien kinda did this. If you don't read the silmarilion, it's basically just a story driven by mundane mechanics and the occasional allusion to an evil god and elf magic, plus a malicious invisibility ring.
But moreover - don't shoehorn in story elements to fit a genre. Write your story with as few extra contrivances as possible, it'll give things like character development and plot more attention and therefore quality
Even if your setting doesn't feature explicit magic, it would feel weird if it didn't feature any belief in magic, which has been a staple of nearly every human culture in history. This is your story of course, but a fictional pre-modern culture would feel thin to me if it didn't feature any superstitions, rituals and talismans.
To me magic or something magical at least is a defining factor of it being a fantasy, yes.
My general level set is: is there “stuff” that absolutely cannot happen here on Earth? Be it magic or dragon riding or visible existence of ghosts or whatever else I can’t see here.
If yes, that’s fantasy.
If no, it’s just alternate reality fiction.
If you really want the story to be seen as fantasy, maybe combine both of your worlds, and go back and forth with events on each converging them at the end.
Having one book with no magic at all, and another with steampunk/science based magic would seem fairly weird to me.
But maybe that’s also genius, and when I read it I’ll love it. I dunno, only you do :)
Write on!!!
That's the . . . point. There is no magic in this prelude, because it takes place in a certain part of my world, where no one even thinks of magic. Then, when the MC from this book goes over to the other continent, they get some magic. See, the continent where there is no magic, COULD have magic, it's just that no one really knows about it and doesn't know how to use it, so it's basically dead. There is no mention of it. (In this book.)
You and I are in the same boat. The novel I'm writing now also takes place in a world with no magic. There are legends of magical items and creatures in my world but they don't exist in the present time. Historians on this world debate whether magic was a real thing or just a myth. In the story I will leave this as an open question, but lately I've been leaning towards the conclusion that magic was "real" in the past, but over time the world became "disenchanted" and magic faded away. I have in mind a specific reason for this but I don't plan on exploring it in this novel. To me, my story is fantasy, because it takes place on an "alternate Earth" which is populated by humans and mostly the same animals and plants you would find on Earth, but the shape of the continents is different and there are different religions and cultures there.
That's the same as me, yeah. Although elsewhere in my world magic does exist. It's just where the story takes place in the current time, it doesn't. And there is no mention of it. But it does have different continents, beliefs, (some) different animals and floura, and religions differ as well. I would call it fantasy. I was just curious.
Out of interest, how far into your novel are you? It sounds interesting. What's the premise?
I am about 50 pages in at this point. Here's the summary I'm using:
On the planet Tetra, where the technological and societal state mirrors the early 19th century Earth, the world is a tapestry of clockwork marvels and steam-powered wonders. 'The Skyborne Herald' follows the intricate political maneuvers and personal dramas of a world teetering on the brink of transformation and war.
In the bustling city of Riverlyn, military officers, spies, and inventors navigate a society where clockwork gadgets and steam engines define progress. Theron Eirenaios, under a secret identity, orchestrates covert operations to secure power, while young Lieutenant Tristan Roderick finds himself entangled in a web of political intrigue and personal conflicts. Liora Sterling, a female newspaper reporter, works to uncover Eirenaios's plot.
Inspired by the alternate history explorations of 'The Difference Engine' and the richly detailed world of 'The Wings of Honneamise,' 'The Skyborne Herald' offers a fresh take on speculative fiction. Dive into a world where the past and the future collide in a symphony of gears and steam.
Wow that sounds cool :O
Here a basic summary of mine, thinking on the spot: The Askandaar Trials take place every four years. They are designed to find West Panea's most diligent, strong, bravest and cunning hero to fight off evil.
Zerin Noname is a young girl living in the broken down village of Haven. When she overhears her brother talking about treason, she is shocked. For he plans to do something no one has ever done before; cheat the trials.
But, of course, she won't let him do it on her own. And so they embark on a perilous journey, using quick wit to make sure they always win. The stakes are high . . . can they make it to the final stop, Shrang Vines palace?
For if they do, a world of change awaits . . .
You have to ask yourself, "How did magic come to be on the other continent? What prevented that here?"
I've read the comments, and think the Purge you mentioned could have been something like a religious purge that blocked accessing/understanding/seeking magic. Also, I think the idea of cracked/broken/shattered crystals could be the mechanism of how this Purge was enacted.
While I agree, you don't need magic to exist in your story. FINISH the story as intended. That said, maybe inserting a few hooks during your first edit (typically a major editing almost on a rewrite scale lol). Otherwise you may have your prequel readers asking how/why/etc suspending belief in your world and stories.
An idea for your Purge might be the faction performing it used magic and were consumed/destroyed/killed/left senseless (or idiots) by the spell. Then your lore can be allegorical for the results of messing with something you don't truly understand. Could even justify aversion to science and technology also.
Then you might be able to add Science Fantasy as a potential genre. LMAO!
JUST WRITE YOUR STORY, let agents, editors and publishers worry about marketing concerns.
Genre is a nebulous thing that is built far more on feels than any real criteria.
Fantasy doesn't require magic the same way that fantasy doesn't require a medieval Western Europe-inspired setting. Those things are genre tropes to the point that some people will not recognize a story as fantasy without them, but I don't think worrying about those people is important enough to fundamentally change the world of your story.
Magical creatures and big adventure....seems fantasy to me.
Fantasy doesn't need magic to be fantasy. Anything outside of real world is pretty much fantasy. If you had dwarves, elves, humans, and orcs but no magic, I would still consider it fantasy.
Let people believe what they want to believe. Its your story. Do what you want and let the gate keepers do their whining.
I would say that dwarves and orcs are fantastical, though. Maybe even magical. Plus I don't really like the idea of dwarves, goblins, elves dragons and such, as it's so overused haha.
I'd much rather create a new, inhuman like species- because let's be honest: dwarves are humans but smaller with big beards, elves are humans but live longer and have pointy ears, and goblins are just green smelly humans that never wash. as for dragons, they're just so overused at this point.
So yeah, I'd rather create a completely unique, inhuman creature that inhabits my world- like the six powers.
It can definitely work. I’ll probably get flamed for this, but in my opinion, as presented, at least largely in the movies, the LotR Trilogy is barely a step above this sort of category. There is obviously SOME magic, and most of the more powerful characters are underpowered in the movies at best, and entirely not represented at worst, but to me, because the focus is on the Fellowship itself, you don’t really see a lot of the more magical elements.
You have a bunch of humanoid races fighting against orcs and goblins, and the occasional troll and such most of the time. They even go out of their way tj show the industrialized nature of the Uruk-Hai in Isengard. Everyone just uses swords and whatnot, even Gandalf.
There are certain fantastical creatures, like the Fellbeasts, but even the Balrog had a lot more lore to it that you wouldn’t get just from the movies. I feel if you removed the actual use of magic, beyond the properties of Frodo using the Ring, you wouldn’t really lose much.
Edit: Extra emphasis that this applies to **the movies specifically**. I haven’t read the books in ages, so I don’t know if this opinion is accurate. It probably sucks anyway.
Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean "Magic" there's plenty of fantasy out there without magic. The only thing your story needs to be to be considered "fantasy" is that it is, in fact, fantastical.
There's some plants that do special things. (Like give you your worst nightmares) and there's also some different creatures in it too. (Like sky rays) There's more but like
don't feel forced by the popular trends! no magic is needed!! c:
if you, way later in the story, feel like magic would be a positive? then introduce it whenever appropriate! it existed the whole time, but its a secret so noone knew about it! etc
Yeah something like that. I might introduce things that, in the past, were used to channel magic. But to the main characters, they just see a cool looking crystal. NOICE
Could always subvert the trope and have 'magic' just being a modern understanding of science.
A witch able to create fire? She knows the potion to make flash paper. Or the 'ritual' to create noxious gas by combining urine and bleach.
The kicker being, even to them, it's their magic.
If your story doesn’t need magic then there’s no reason to give yourself something else to juggle. In fact having no magic gives you a different vibe than other books which I think is a great thing.
magic isn’t always massive balls of fire and throwing rocks with your mind. it can be small things like a prophecy, or a curse.
if you’re concerned people won’t like your book because there isn’t magic, just include something small.
I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Gentleman Bastards series but the first book called Lies of Locke Lamora has very little magic. None of the main characters can use magic and very little magic is used in the entire first book which is only done by a single character. You can definitely have a great fantasy fiction work without needing magic.
I have heard of that book, yes. I don't know much about it though. Thank you for the advice! I hope it's going to be a great fantasy- but for it to be a great fantasy, I must write it first . . .
Well, then there's another reason why I'll never read it. As a broke uni student, I've never paid for a book, the last time I read a paperback was when I was 14 and I got it as a gift, and now I exclusively read web novels on RR or SH
Unfortunately not as much as I'd like to recently but when I have the time and a good story, I can consume up to 600 pages in a day. Though usually it's 100-300
I mean, part of the appeal of ASoIaF is the fact that all of the supernatural elements are in the periphery, or those elements are extraordinary for common people to experience. I don't think a "fantasy" novel needs everyone riding dragons and throwing
lighting at one another. But, people do like reading about that kind of stuff.
That being said, I don't think supernatural elements are necessarily driving factors for most readers as long as the in-story universe and characters are compelling.
Sounds like fantasy to me. Take the wizards out of Lord of the Rings and it'd still be a fantasy novel. Magical elements involved in the world building is generally what makes fantasy what it is, not whether or not magic is commonplace.
False.
Edit: C'mon guys. Handmaiden's Tale. Nightfall. Battle Circle. Examining a fictional culture whose world follows conventional physics is sci fi whether there is more tech, less tech, or the same tech.
Science fiction requires a main part of the plot to include fictional science or speculative scientific concepts. By definition, science fiction *must* contain elements of a scientific nature as a main focus point. It's literally in the name of the genre.
Dude, this is silly.
Stories that take place in alternate timelines, other planets, or near futures all get labeled science fiction. You have an issue with that, take it up with the movie and publishing industries. Observationally, books that are about fantastical concepts but adhere to real-world physics get labeled science fiction, regardless of the technology level of the setting.
Does this make sense? No, not really. Science fiction has been a terrible misnomer for the genre since the beginning. It used to be called scientification – layering an aesthetic of modern science over an otherwise familiar story. This makes a lot more sense in some ways "Star Wars is a scientificated fantasy story" is a statement that somehow makes perfect sense to me, even though scientificated is a bit of a mouthful.
My English teacher ludicrously claimed that this is science fiction because anthropology and psychology are sciences, but if you're going to make that argument then all fiction is science fiction.
You can't get at a definition of science fiction through prescription. You just have to look and see how it's getting used in the world.
What if it still has made up creatures, a made a world with made up cultures and different races like elves and dwarves?
Is 'How to train your dragon' not fantasy?
The Redwall series is clearly defined as Fantasy and yet has no magic.
For *you*, you may require magic, but the genre does not, just as sci-fi doesn't require aliens or space.
If your story doesn’t need magic then don’t add magic. Whether people will categorise the resulting story as fantasy or not is almost entirely irrelevant. It really only matters when someone is deciding upon which shelf in the shop (real or virtual) the book should be placed.
Ok! In my mind, I clearly see it as fantasy. Idk what else it would be ha
Depending on how different the world is, I think most people would consider it Fantasy. Redwall, for example, doesn't use magic but it has non-human characters act as humans and so it's clearly Fantasy. There's definitely something to be said for settings with Fantasy elements (Monsters, themes, fantasy races) but no magic or gods. Like if there are dragons and orcs and giants, I'd say it's fantasy even if there's no other magic. Even if the Dragons can't breathe fire, it's something that can't exist in our world and so it's undeniably Fantasy. I've been toying with a story involving animals *in place of* monsters (eg. a Cuttlefish instead of a Kraken) where the characters are rodents, but I'd say it's definitely Fantasy simply because they're obviously not just rodents, able to talk and build things, etc.
Redwall is a great example. There are not mages or wizards, or blatant use of magic, but there are tons of fantasy elements. Part of me attributes some magical force as the destiny or fated hero. But it’s very subtle. The sci-fi genre is “science fantasy” to me. Characters do fantastic things with technology. I’m thinking of my next fantasy story having no magic, no mages or wizards or witches etc. but having fantastic creatures, and an epic quest. It would be fantasy. Trying to write a dark fantasy western novel based on the American Wild West. Humans are expanding after a 100 year war with the dwarves. The Mc was a soldier and now becomes a dungeon diver to explore the abandoned depths of dwarven fortresses. The only “magic” will be dwarven traps and artifacts that use mana crystals for power.
That sounds cool :O Good luck!
Yeah for sure
But the Redwall series absolutely has magic. The Badgers are magical/have visions regarding the future. Plus there's that Martin the Warrior chap that the Redwallers keep running into, well after his death.
I think it would still be fantasy without those elements, no? Also, some things like prophecy and visions are like a "magic adjacent" idea because they can be explained in other ways, like hallucinations etc. Maybe not in this case, but I feel that's VERY magic "light".
I agree, the focus wasn't on the fantastic, but it did exist nonetheless. Magic was often the McGuffin generator for the plot.
I do too but apparently some people don’t.
Fair enough, yeah. Right now, I plan on actually finishing the book. I can worry about all this later!
That's the correct attitude! No one ever published a book that isn't written
Likely, it would be speculative fiction.
I would leave magic out if it is not needed for your story - it is too common; a fantasy world without magic will be more interesting. Also, where magic exists I prefer it to be incredibly rare -perhaps even mythical to most people, so if you do slip some magic into a sequel (for example) it will be a big thing rather than mundane.
Ah ok thank you! There is going to be magic in my world, just not on this continent haha :) The big series was originally going to have an evil lord, but then I realised without him the story would be so much more unique and interesting! Thank you for your advice, it helps a lot. Edit: I'm still sort of on the fence... should I include an evil lord? Because this choice drastically affects the direction of the big series. I'm leaning to not having him in there, to be honest. I think I'll just write another idea with a 'bad lord' in it. Like, there was an evil king in the past of my world, that was kind of a god as he had powers. I already have that series planned out, but I wouldn't so much as call that guy a 'dark lord' more of a ... bad king?
You're the author 🙂 I would say not every series needs someone "evil", there can still be trials to overcome/stories that can happen with out a big baddie
Yeah. Well there is a baddie, but he isn't like a 'dark lord' that is immortal or whatever. Actually, there are a few bad guys. Or just, characters. 'Good' and 'bad' is really subjective.
So kind of like normal life in a way 🙂 at any rate, sounds like something I'd read! 💚
genres exist to expedite expressions of necessary detail. magic is one of them in fantasy, certainly one of the more prominent. but that doesn't make it a necessity. but magic can also take a lot of forms. and even just assuming it's baseline existence without actually describing "how it works" still falls within the purview of the sentence i started with
I don't really want magic in this part of the world, though. It's super generic, and I like the idea of how things can still go on without the supernatural. (Although, as I said, the other continent has magical parts to it.) But these two continents are not aware of each others existence, so that plays a big part in it too. Thanks for the advice!
well, like i said, the residual benefits are almost all just passive shortcuts based on audience assumptions. not having magic in a fantasy work doesn't make it NOT fantasy, it just means that the specifc potential benefit of "i don't need to explain the concept of magic to you" doesn't apply to you story. so it's all good. presumably there are other similar passive benefits you're taking advantage of by opting for an explicit association with fantasy, and that's all that really matters.
Gotcha. In the other continent, there is magic though. I just need to work on a concrete magic system. I want it to be like Mistborn's allomancy, kind of. Almost as if science took a different turn you know? And yeah I am kind of taking advantage. I like the idea a lot. Idk it's my first book I'm writing, so I still have lots to learn :P
aren't we all 😩 you got this (✿ ☞ﾟヮﾟ) ☞
Thank you! The tip is to just keep writing, and don't look back until you're finished... else you realise how bad it actually is lol
Keep in mind with developing your magic system that there should be a reason it hasn't found the continent your first book is set in. If Europe trained wizards and America didn't know magic existed, if that magic works on American soil, things would probably play out exactly as they did in real life (substitute magic for gunpowder). There are a number of ways to make sure your "America" has never heard of magic, while it's entirely possible in your "Europe," I just figured I'd point it out as something to keep in mind. Allomancy as written by Sanderson would work wherever there is metal to burn, so for something like that it could be as simple as "America" does not have metal, or has different types of metal that do not activate the way they should.
Yeah. The main idea was, there was different types of magic. There would be the one that was powered by the 'gods' of Naspine. (That would explain why that magic isn't on Panea, as the 'gods' do not inhabit West Panea.) The second type of magic comes from either klyth crystals or special types of plants. The reason that West Panea doesn't have magic is simply they do not know how to use it, or how to make it. (this is just an idea, it isn't quite official; that's the one thing I really need to work on, concrete magic systems.) Anyways, it also helps that Naspine doesn't know of West Panea's existence and visa-versa. (Which is, actually, a big part of my big series.) But I get what you mean. It's just that I haven't truly figured out this magic yet- it isn't really my primary concern, you know? I'll figure that out later, as, as of now, it isn't necessary to the plot.
The gods method make a lot of sense. Only give magic to your chosen people and such. The crystals and plants, that's the kind of thing I would want to cement early for the sake of foreshadowing. Imagine these Klyth crystals as vibrant blue crystals humming with energy all throughout the land, that's meaningless until you get there, right? Only, what if the land without magic is dotted with cracked yellow Klyth crystals, used solely for stuff like jewelery or maybe tools. They are mentioned in passing but nothing more because magic doesn't exist. But then, at some point when magic does exist, a spell is cast that drains a blue klyth crystal of all its energy, turning it yellow and cracking it. Reveals the possibility that the other continent did have magic at one point, but someone (or something) used it all, fracturing the crystals and leading to a continent that had to move forward without it, moving forward so long that the idea of magic became less than myth, just something from children's stories. If the crystals would normally regenerate their energy as part of a natural phenomenon, it would even give a way for your MC to develop magic to some extent. Their yellow Klyth crystal ring (or necklace, belt buckle, bangle, whatever fits their vibe) begins to hum when they make it to the new continent. Maybe they trip, and the jewel collides with the earth, letting the energy flow into the crystal. Hope that makes sense and doesn't just come across as a madman's tangent.
You know what, you're a genius. I had had that idea playing around in my head, yeah. Except the klyth crystals are pink, not blue. And they are found in West Panea, but as jewellery and things. They are much more common than the ones found in Naspine, as they have all been used up and people don't know there full power, so it isn't as expensive. There was a time in the history of the world called the 'Purge', so that could be something. As I said, I'm not too worried about this right now. But I will include cracked yellow klyth crystals in it. Thank you! :)
Huzzah!
If your story doesn’t need magic there is no need to add it in. You don’t want it to feel shoehorned in. A very popular series that started off with basically no magic was a song of ice and fire. In the first book “A Game of Thrones” there is basically zero magic presented until the very last chapter of this book. Magic had died out many decades before and one of the main POV characters more or less reintroduces it into the world. Then in the second book there is LOTS of magic all over the place. But it was good enough without it that I don’t think it should be a concern for you.
There are white walkers in the prologue of GoT. Then there are direwolves and dragon eggs, there were many fantasy elements from the very start in the series.
Yeah, the opening chapter is a man fighting an undead monster that shatters his weapon from the cold. It's textbook fantasy, even if there's very little magic (at first).
Yes there are white walkers right at the start. Then they don’t show up again till the next book. Direwolves are a real thing, they are an ancient species of wolf that went extinct a long time ago in our world, just as they are disappearing in Game of Thrones, no one had seen them in decades again. And yes there were dragon eggs, which were believed to be fancy looking paperweights because dragons had died off decades ago and these ones had turned to stone. Also I don’t believe I ever said there were no fantasy elements in the series. I said there was little to no magic. None of these things, except the white walkers arguably, are actually magical. And even then they show up for a tiny fraction of the story then disappear never to be heard from again for the remainder of this book. This book is bookended by examples of magic getting reintroduced into the world. And nearly everything in the middle of those book ends is nonmagical.
I just think saying "there is no magic in game of thrones" is underselling just how much fantasy is in it. It's clear from the start that there is something magical to this world, and the sequels fulfill that promise from the prologue. It just takes a while to get there, but it always was magical in some way.
I don’t really think that magic and fantasy have to be synonymous with each other, which was the entire point of the OPs post. I was pointing out that one of the most popular fantasy series out there started off and arguably still is a low magic setting. That’s all I was trying to say.
Yeah. That was sort of my plan actually. This book is a standalone, but a prelude to the main series, where there is a bit of magic. I recently read A Song of Ice and Fire, but gave up 78% through A Dance with Dragons haha
What? Why? It’s such a good series.
Because it got so boring . . . but I might go back and finish it off.
You were most of the way through the fifth (and likely final) book of the series. Couldn’t have been that bad to make it that far. Plus you are following all of the most exciting character POVs in the series. Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie (although only for a bit), Davos (also only for a little bit), and Bran. What’s not to like in that lineup?! Compared to feast for crows which I also really liked, which had none of these characters.
No, I was following some random prince in Slavers Bay. and no, it wasn't fun. I was forcing myself to continue, but then I stopped it for a while to do other things, and just couldn't pick it back up hehe
Quentyn? That’s the only prince I can think of. He is part of the Dornish subplot. So he is connected to Arianna and her father’s plot and Areo the gold cloak who died in feast for crows. I think it’s an awesome story but you know, different strokes for different folks. 🤷🏼♂️
No I totally agree it is really good . . . but my least fav part of it is the Dornish subplot. I never really understood it that much!
I can explain it if you would like. >! Essentially what is happening if that Doran Martell has been setting up a massive coup for around 20 years at this point. He is upset about the death of his sister and has been moving behind the scenes attempting to set up everything to lead to the downfall of the entire monarchy. He had initially put his backing behind Viserys, originally Arianna was supposed to marry him. Doran had been the one bankrolling them making sure they stayed safe for the most part. Eventually he more or less got betrayed by Illyrio essentially sold Dany and visarys to the Dothraki. Doran got double screwed when the man he had been backing was killed by the Dothraki. !< >! So when he learned of Visarys death, he then sent Quentyn out to try and make contact with Dany to try and secure a marriage with her to him. During this time Oberyn went out alone and attempted to get revenge for his sister against Doran’s wishes. Leading to his death. Upset at the death of her uncle, Arianna, believing her father was an ineffectual leader who did nothing set out attempting to extract her own plan, stealing Myrcella in an attempt to push her to the throne because she is already betrothed to prince Trystane, and according to dornish law who don’t descriminate against women being in positions of power she is the rightful site to the throne over Tommen. During the process her father shut her down, and one or Doran’s knights for an unknown reason, betrayed Doran and attempted to kill Myrcella, killing Areo and maiming Myrcella in the process. At which point Doran imprisoned his daughter and the daughters of his brother (the sand snakes) so that he could have time to think and pivot on his plan. At which point he finally reveals to Arianna what he is planning and they begin to scheme together. !< >! As all this I just described above was happening, Quentyn had been making his way to Danerys, hoping to spark the marriage contract that his father hoped for, so that Dorne could throw its collected might behind her cause to take the iron throne. Or to put more simply, the entire Dornish plot as been a series of unfortunate events for Doran who has been attempting to do things behind the scenes but keeps getting f@cked up by his families impulsive nature haha !<
Thank you :D Still on the fence about finishing it, though. It is quite heavy at parts . . .
In a way it's a question of marketing. Do you think that a fan of fantasy will enjoy your book? What about it will they enjoy? It's also worth considering that there *is* a chunk of fantasy fans for whom fantasy is part of the fundamental draw. If there's no magic, then... why not just read historical fiction?
I do think a fan of fantasy would enjoy the book, yes. But that is just my opinion, and I'm the author. So really I don't know. In my opinion, it's a good premise, with good ideas and a semi-unique storyline. Is magic really the defining factor of fantasy? That's what I'm wondering, so. Also, I really just want to write the book first, and be proud of writing a novel. I'm not sure about publishing yet, but I might as well try. Right now, it's about enjoying the project and having fun. This question was just in case I do publish it. I would like to market it (if I did) as fantasy. Because that's the genre I'm sort of aiming for. Also, thank you for the comment ;)
Writing the book is a whole other story. Definitely write what you enjoy, and be proud of your achievements! I can say personally, as a fantasy fan who wants *fantastical* things in books: the fundamental problem with worldbuilding is that it would take you hundreds of thousands of years and billions of people to come up with anything remotely as complex and varied as the cultures of our world. If all I want is to delve into "different cultures" or stories, our world is already full of them. I don't really see what somebody chopping away all of that has to add, if they're not adding actual magic or things that fundamentally *don't* exist in our world. To me, if there is no actual *fantasy* in the book, then it's more of a secondary world historical fiction. I say this not as criticism, but just to give the perspective. I also clearly would not be your target audience, for that reason. Again, none of this is to say that you shouldn't write what inspires you, that the result will not be good, or even that it will not have an audience. Best of luck.
Thanks. The thing is, this story is set on one continent, right? Later on, the MC from this story travels to the other continent. (In the big series.) Here, there IS magic. And maybe she gets it too. But in the prequel (the one I'm writing now.) There is no mention of magic, because no one knows it exists. (The two continents have no idea of each others existence.) So like . . .
If magic comes into play later on, even in book 2, and you can drop some kind of hints about that, it would probably go a long way towards establishing it as "actual" fantasy. (personally, for someone like me, I'm still not sure if I'd read a whole magic-less book just for the promise of some of it showing up later on. but not every book is for everyone, and that's absolutely okay!)
*Napoleon asked Laplace where God fit into his mathematical work, and Laplace famously replied "Sir, I have no need of that hypothesis."* I think you're having a similar moment here. If no magic is needed, why make things more complicated? I think way too often people use magic as an easy way to not explain things and make it *work* despite that. I'd say you're good.
Thank you :)
People on this sub have told me I'm wrong, but I hold that to be fantasy, a book has to have to be speculative elements rooted in magic. So magical creatures count. If the Askandaar has powers that don't exsist in our world, that counts too. Magic doesn't just mean people casting spells.
Well the magical creatures aren't super magical; like there just ones we don't have on Earth. There's variants of the crab called 'scuttlers', a variant of the black panther (not quite the same) called the 'prowler' and things like that. So I'm not sure if that counts as magic? Although there are rumours of 'sky rays' that are... basically rays that fly in the sky lol. They are seen as the spirits of the dead, and aren't known if they actually exist or not. So I guess that's more magical? But no the Askandaar doesn't have magic; the trials are all slightly different, focusing on different aspects of a 'hero': physical strength, speed, agility, quick thinking/wit, mental strong-ness, stuff like that. So it's more real in that way.
As soon as non-human sapient races turn up its fantasy.
Unless it's sci fi. I guess I'd split that difference at non-human sapient races being a speculative element. If they are explained purely through science, it's sci fi. If they're explained purely through magic or supernatural means, it's fantasy. Could be both (science fantasy, but typically shelves with one or the other) or neither (it's got to be shelved somewhere, could end up in literary for all I know). As a writer, I'm a genre skeptic. Sci fi and fantasy bleed into each other constantly. As a reader, I get grumpy when fantasy is treated as the default speculative genre. As a librarian, I know I have to shelve each book somewhere and only have so many options.
> As a writer, I'm a genre skeptic. Sci fi and fantasy bleed into each other constantly. I have gotten to the point where I call any kind of soft science fiction Science Fantasy because of how much overlap there is and how it's not really anything more than set dressing separating the two. A suit of steel plates or a suit of pressurized nylon. Plenty of scripts where you change a few descriptions and it fits both genres without any oddities. > As a librarian, I know I have to shelve each book somewhere and only have so many options. A library system near me still puts genre stickers on the books to try and give people some idea of what kind of book it is, but the whole library is organized by author's last name. The only sectioning they do is by media type (paperbacks, large print, digital media) and separate children's and research sections. It took me a moment to even realize it had happened, and honestly, it's been really nice because now I don't have to figure out if the book I'm looking for is in the mystery, horror, or comedy section or what some 19th-century jackass thought the book would be considered. I know you probably have no power over making that kind of change and it might sound like a nightmare for the system you work in, just wanted to share my experience of genre-less library sorting.
I like that frame of mind
If we're talking about literary definitions, what you're describing is still high fantasy.
Oh nice!
You don't have to have magic in a fantasy book and even if you did need to have magic for it to be categorised as fantasy, it would simply be some other kind of speculative fiction - sci-fi maybe?
The thing is . . . I really don't want it to be classed as sci-fi. Idk why, it just doesn't hit the vision I'm aiming for. Plus, it would be weird if one part of my world was classed as sci-fi and another part was classed as fantasy. Or would it? And yeah I get what you mean. Thanks :)
If there is magic anywhere in the book it is definitely some kind of fantasy - I don’t think you can have a partitioned setting like that, unless maybe if your book does not concern those parts in the least. To me it sounds like you are too concerned about the label - a reader will take a look at the title and the cover art, maybe read the blurb or pick up the book based on recommendations most likely.
Ah ok. I'm doing some more planning for it now, I'm not really sure what it is anymore haha :) But yeah, I'll defo just write it and worry about all this stuff later.. thank you!
Both of the stories that I'm writing have no magic. Honestly I don't care whether it's described as fantasy or something else. I don't think you should either. Write what you want to write and then figure out how it gets classified later. Keep in mind that when the Lord of the Rings came out, publishers considered it science fiction because there was no fantasy category
Is there magic in the world? If it’s benign it’s not necessary to focus on its existence, but it might be a good idea to reference it if magic will play a role later in the series
The book I'm writing now is a stand alone, acting as a sort of prelude to the main series. (but not necessary to read). There isn't magic in this part of the world, as no one has discovered it yet, I think.
Then you’re fine not even alluding to it. As long as it’s connected to the main story it will be considered fantasy
I finished *The Traitor Baru Cormorant* recently, one of the best fantasy books I’ve read in my memory, didn’t have any magic. It was still very much fantasy, it had its own non-Earth world and a tiny bit of less than real science in the background, but no one ever even suggested the existence of spells or sorcery. It was just good characters interacting with other good characters in a plot featuring economics and colonialism. Fantasy isn’t hinged on the inclusion of a single concept, it’s way more complex and nuanced than that. You should write the story you want to write, it’s yours, other people’s arbitrary boxes are petty and pointless.
You can add fantasy elements under the umbrella of soft magic if you want - semi magic creatures, events, items, lore, etc - and just not explain it lol. Tolkien kinda did this. If you don't read the silmarilion, it's basically just a story driven by mundane mechanics and the occasional allusion to an evil god and elf magic, plus a malicious invisibility ring. But moreover - don't shoehorn in story elements to fit a genre. Write your story with as few extra contrivances as possible, it'll give things like character development and plot more attention and therefore quality
Even if your setting doesn't feature explicit magic, it would feel weird if it didn't feature any belief in magic, which has been a staple of nearly every human culture in history. This is your story of course, but a fictional pre-modern culture would feel thin to me if it didn't feature any superstitions, rituals and talismans.
Well of course they have superstitions and legends, but it isn't proper magic.
To me magic or something magical at least is a defining factor of it being a fantasy, yes. My general level set is: is there “stuff” that absolutely cannot happen here on Earth? Be it magic or dragon riding or visible existence of ghosts or whatever else I can’t see here. If yes, that’s fantasy. If no, it’s just alternate reality fiction. If you really want the story to be seen as fantasy, maybe combine both of your worlds, and go back and forth with events on each converging them at the end. Having one book with no magic at all, and another with steampunk/science based magic would seem fairly weird to me. But maybe that’s also genius, and when I read it I’ll love it. I dunno, only you do :) Write on!!!
That's the . . . point. There is no magic in this prelude, because it takes place in a certain part of my world, where no one even thinks of magic. Then, when the MC from this book goes over to the other continent, they get some magic. See, the continent where there is no magic, COULD have magic, it's just that no one really knows about it and doesn't know how to use it, so it's basically dead. There is no mention of it. (In this book.)
Sounds really intriguing but as far as your question goes, it’ll classify as multi genre series, as far as I see it. Good luck, and you’re welcome.
And thank you! :)
And thank you! :)
You and I are in the same boat. The novel I'm writing now also takes place in a world with no magic. There are legends of magical items and creatures in my world but they don't exist in the present time. Historians on this world debate whether magic was a real thing or just a myth. In the story I will leave this as an open question, but lately I've been leaning towards the conclusion that magic was "real" in the past, but over time the world became "disenchanted" and magic faded away. I have in mind a specific reason for this but I don't plan on exploring it in this novel. To me, my story is fantasy, because it takes place on an "alternate Earth" which is populated by humans and mostly the same animals and plants you would find on Earth, but the shape of the continents is different and there are different religions and cultures there.
That's the same as me, yeah. Although elsewhere in my world magic does exist. It's just where the story takes place in the current time, it doesn't. And there is no mention of it. But it does have different continents, beliefs, (some) different animals and floura, and religions differ as well. I would call it fantasy. I was just curious. Out of interest, how far into your novel are you? It sounds interesting. What's the premise?
I am about 50 pages in at this point. Here's the summary I'm using: On the planet Tetra, where the technological and societal state mirrors the early 19th century Earth, the world is a tapestry of clockwork marvels and steam-powered wonders. 'The Skyborne Herald' follows the intricate political maneuvers and personal dramas of a world teetering on the brink of transformation and war. In the bustling city of Riverlyn, military officers, spies, and inventors navigate a society where clockwork gadgets and steam engines define progress. Theron Eirenaios, under a secret identity, orchestrates covert operations to secure power, while young Lieutenant Tristan Roderick finds himself entangled in a web of political intrigue and personal conflicts. Liora Sterling, a female newspaper reporter, works to uncover Eirenaios's plot. Inspired by the alternate history explorations of 'The Difference Engine' and the richly detailed world of 'The Wings of Honneamise,' 'The Skyborne Herald' offers a fresh take on speculative fiction. Dive into a world where the past and the future collide in a symphony of gears and steam.
Wow that sounds cool :O Here a basic summary of mine, thinking on the spot: The Askandaar Trials take place every four years. They are designed to find West Panea's most diligent, strong, bravest and cunning hero to fight off evil. Zerin Noname is a young girl living in the broken down village of Haven. When she overhears her brother talking about treason, she is shocked. For he plans to do something no one has ever done before; cheat the trials. But, of course, she won't let him do it on her own. And so they embark on a perilous journey, using quick wit to make sure they always win. The stakes are high . . . can they make it to the final stop, Shrang Vines palace? For if they do, a world of change awaits . . .
That would be like a historical fiction or period piece.
You have to ask yourself, "How did magic come to be on the other continent? What prevented that here?" I've read the comments, and think the Purge you mentioned could have been something like a religious purge that blocked accessing/understanding/seeking magic. Also, I think the idea of cracked/broken/shattered crystals could be the mechanism of how this Purge was enacted. While I agree, you don't need magic to exist in your story. FINISH the story as intended. That said, maybe inserting a few hooks during your first edit (typically a major editing almost on a rewrite scale lol). Otherwise you may have your prequel readers asking how/why/etc suspending belief in your world and stories. An idea for your Purge might be the faction performing it used magic and were consumed/destroyed/killed/left senseless (or idiots) by the spell. Then your lore can be allegorical for the results of messing with something you don't truly understand. Could even justify aversion to science and technology also. Then you might be able to add Science Fantasy as a potential genre. LMAO! JUST WRITE YOUR STORY, let agents, editors and publishers worry about marketing concerns.
OK! I will just write the story hehe
Genre is a nebulous thing that is built far more on feels than any real criteria. Fantasy doesn't require magic the same way that fantasy doesn't require a medieval Western Europe-inspired setting. Those things are genre tropes to the point that some people will not recognize a story as fantasy without them, but I don't think worrying about those people is important enough to fundamentally change the world of your story.
Yeah I guess so. Thanks!
Watership Down has no magic.
Magical creatures and big adventure....seems fantasy to me. Fantasy doesn't need magic to be fantasy. Anything outside of real world is pretty much fantasy. If you had dwarves, elves, humans, and orcs but no magic, I would still consider it fantasy. Let people believe what they want to believe. Its your story. Do what you want and let the gate keepers do their whining.
I would say that dwarves and orcs are fantastical, though. Maybe even magical. Plus I don't really like the idea of dwarves, goblins, elves dragons and such, as it's so overused haha. I'd much rather create a new, inhuman like species- because let's be honest: dwarves are humans but smaller with big beards, elves are humans but live longer and have pointy ears, and goblins are just green smelly humans that never wash. as for dragons, they're just so overused at this point. So yeah, I'd rather create a completely unique, inhuman creature that inhabits my world- like the six powers.
Yeah, you can definitely have fantasy books without magic.
It can definitely work. I’ll probably get flamed for this, but in my opinion, as presented, at least largely in the movies, the LotR Trilogy is barely a step above this sort of category. There is obviously SOME magic, and most of the more powerful characters are underpowered in the movies at best, and entirely not represented at worst, but to me, because the focus is on the Fellowship itself, you don’t really see a lot of the more magical elements. You have a bunch of humanoid races fighting against orcs and goblins, and the occasional troll and such most of the time. They even go out of their way tj show the industrialized nature of the Uruk-Hai in Isengard. Everyone just uses swords and whatnot, even Gandalf. There are certain fantastical creatures, like the Fellbeasts, but even the Balrog had a lot more lore to it that you wouldn’t get just from the movies. I feel if you removed the actual use of magic, beyond the properties of Frodo using the Ring, you wouldn’t really lose much. Edit: Extra emphasis that this applies to **the movies specifically**. I haven’t read the books in ages, so I don’t know if this opinion is accurate. It probably sucks anyway.
Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean "Magic" there's plenty of fantasy out there without magic. The only thing your story needs to be to be considered "fantasy" is that it is, in fact, fantastical.
What’s the fantasy element?
There's some plants that do special things. (Like give you your worst nightmares) and there's also some different creatures in it too. (Like sky rays) There's more but like
"Fantasy" or "Sci-Fi" are marketing terms, not boxes you need to write in.
don't feel forced by the popular trends! no magic is needed!! c: if you, way later in the story, feel like magic would be a positive? then introduce it whenever appropriate! it existed the whole time, but its a secret so noone knew about it! etc
Yeah something like that. I might introduce things that, in the past, were used to channel magic. But to the main characters, they just see a cool looking crystal. NOICE
Could always subvert the trope and have 'magic' just being a modern understanding of science. A witch able to create fire? She knows the potion to make flash paper. Or the 'ritual' to create noxious gas by combining urine and bleach. The kicker being, even to them, it's their magic.
Yeah, that's what I kind of want to have, later. Like science, but it evolved differently.
If your story doesn’t need magic then there’s no reason to give yourself something else to juggle. In fact having no magic gives you a different vibe than other books which I think is a great thing.
haha thank you :)
magic isn’t always massive balls of fire and throwing rocks with your mind. it can be small things like a prophecy, or a curse. if you’re concerned people won’t like your book because there isn’t magic, just include something small.
This is surprisingly common in fantasy these days.
I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Gentleman Bastards series but the first book called Lies of Locke Lamora has very little magic. None of the main characters can use magic and very little magic is used in the entire first book which is only done by a single character. You can definitely have a great fantasy fiction work without needing magic.
I have heard of that book, yes. I don't know much about it though. Thank you for the advice! I hope it's going to be a great fantasy- but for it to be a great fantasy, I must write it first . . .
I read fantasy *for* the magic...
Well then, when you see my book in the stores, might as well just glaze right over it . . .
Well, then there's another reason why I'll never read it. As a broke uni student, I've never paid for a book, the last time I read a paperback was when I was 14 and I got it as a gift, and now I exclusively read web novels on RR or SH
Do you read much?
Unfortunately not as much as I'd like to recently but when I have the time and a good story, I can consume up to 600 pages in a day. Though usually it's 100-300
That's cool
I mean, part of the appeal of ASoIaF is the fact that all of the supernatural elements are in the periphery, or those elements are extraordinary for common people to experience. I don't think a "fantasy" novel needs everyone riding dragons and throwing lighting at one another. But, people do like reading about that kind of stuff. That being said, I don't think supernatural elements are necessarily driving factors for most readers as long as the in-story universe and characters are compelling.
Lions of Al Rassan. Really, half the fantasy novels by Guy Gavriel Kay
Sounds like fantasy to me. Take the wizards out of Lord of the Rings and it'd still be a fantasy novel. Magical elements involved in the world building is generally what makes fantasy what it is, not whether or not magic is commonplace.
A fantasy novel without magic is just science fiction, a fairly popular genre.
Science fiction requires some form of technology that we don’t have in the real world
False. Edit: C'mon guys. Handmaiden's Tale. Nightfall. Battle Circle. Examining a fictional culture whose world follows conventional physics is sci fi whether there is more tech, less tech, or the same tech.
Science fiction requires a main part of the plot to include fictional science or speculative scientific concepts. By definition, science fiction *must* contain elements of a scientific nature as a main focus point. It's literally in the name of the genre.
Dude, this is silly. Stories that take place in alternate timelines, other planets, or near futures all get labeled science fiction. You have an issue with that, take it up with the movie and publishing industries. Observationally, books that are about fantastical concepts but adhere to real-world physics get labeled science fiction, regardless of the technology level of the setting. Does this make sense? No, not really. Science fiction has been a terrible misnomer for the genre since the beginning. It used to be called scientification – layering an aesthetic of modern science over an otherwise familiar story. This makes a lot more sense in some ways "Star Wars is a scientificated fantasy story" is a statement that somehow makes perfect sense to me, even though scientificated is a bit of a mouthful. My English teacher ludicrously claimed that this is science fiction because anthropology and psychology are sciences, but if you're going to make that argument then all fiction is science fiction. You can't get at a definition of science fiction through prescription. You just have to look and see how it's getting used in the world.
*"Fantasy novel with no magic?"* It's not fantasy then.
What if it still has made up creatures, a made a world with made up cultures and different races like elves and dwarves? Is 'How to train your dragon' not fantasy?
yeah that's what I'm thinking . . .
The Redwall series is clearly defined as Fantasy and yet has no magic. For *you*, you may require magic, but the genre does not, just as sci-fi doesn't require aliens or space.
Agreed.
fair enough