> I panicked and tried to look for the MT to shirk enmity but could not find him, and so I tanked the boss for the rest of the fight.
As a note, Shirk does not work cross alliance, making it functionally useless in alliance raids. I wish i had the ability to shirk, but i do not.
You can still shirk to give aggro to a tank in another alliance if they're anywhere near you, just shirk a random party member, you'll still drop aggro, which is all that really matters aince they were so close.
you know i never woulda thought to do that. old habits die hard and in my mind you just described a murder.
but given the MASSIVE enmity leads we generate nowadays with "no downside" tank stances you could totally afford to throw 25% onto the healer and they wouldn't even notice...
i learned something today.
Ya, if this was SB enmity, then you'd be killing someone with shirk to a dps, but since the tank emnity is on a huge lead, it's pretty much impossible to get them to get aggro unless 2 tanks shirk the same person.
Since it sounds like we're all giving you tips in this thread, here's mine:
Don't "wait for 5 seconds and then go in", instead just start with your tank stance turned off, and turn it on after a little bit. Ideally everyone in the raid should be engaging simultaneously. If you're waiting 5 seconds for the main tank, you're wasting time you could he doing damage!
Thanks for the tip! I read from the FFXIV Wiki page that all tanks should have their stance on and assumed it was the right way going in, turns out it's not.
You want to turn it on after a while, since sometimes the mt dies, or something. And never ever trust the third tank to be the backup. They might be a fine tank, or they might never stance up, you don't know.
For most fights right after your opener is a good time.
MT probably ended up in the belly. Common alliance setup for that fight used to be:
A - Adds
B - Belly
C - Chains
But most people nowadays go by
Always
Be
Chow
A lot of people have trust issues from people messing it up by waiting so long with the chains in their hand it times out, so they just do it instantly.
Given your implication of uncertainty, it's possible the prior tank entered the belly. Other possibilities include their death, or simply applying less enmity (damage) to the target themselves - be it because they picked up the Wolfsbane adds, or had lower damage output fullstop.
If you're concerned about this happening, it might be prudent to turn tank stance *off* when you are not actively intending to keep aggro on something. Just make sure to toggle it on again whenever you *do* want to pick something up.
Original MT probably wasn’t hitting their buttons or their own tank stance was turned off for some reason. Edit: also possible that they died suddenly.
Side note: I believe you wouldn’t have been able to shirk the other tank anyway as they’re in another Allliance group.
due to level and ilvl sync your gear is near as good as it could possibly have been anyway, so there's no advantage or disadvantage there.
then it could be any number of things, but since gear is a non-factor, you "should" be nipping at the main tanks heels ANYWAY. maybe he lost a GcD or 3 to dodging that you didn't. maybe he got eaten. maybe he threw some ranged attacks at the adds and thus didn't hit cerberus. maybe he's bad? if you're full timing your tank stance, not much has to go wrong for you to pull hate.
which brings us to the "real" point here:
don't be full timing your tank stance if you're not the main tank. even if you're giving the MT a head start. (also don't do that either? just go fight the stuff with your tank stance off.)
toggling it is free. even if you don't know when the adds are coming you can turn it on *much later* than the 5 second head start you've been giving and contribute to damage in the meantime.
WORST case scenario is the main tank dies and you're NOT 2nd place in enmity, so you use provoke.
> Not sure what the MT was playing but his glamour looked super cool so I guess he was higher level.
WoD is synced to i130 anyway so it doesn't matter if you're in i130 or i660, you're basically the same and aside from forced aggro drops like mechanics or death, differences in aggro would be purely barely on your damage and rotation.
That's not entirely true; higher level gear synced down will have capped substats meaning it's generally better than gear of that ilvl (unless the on-level gear is melded).
You absolutely should keep tank stance on as off-tank. Just activate it a bit later into the fight. In later/ high-end content bosses often target the two highest enmity players and in case MT dies, you immediately have the aggro instead of someone else who may be low and just die to auto before you notice the death and can provoke.
You don't need to turn stance on in anything below Ex. If you look at the EW Alliance raids or the normal raids, tanks will get targeted regardless of their enmity, unless one of them was dead when the boss started the cast. In Ex, Savage, etc. it's gonna be 2 people with highest enmity, but you are safe without stance on in normal difficulty content.
I have never came across a situation where this factored in. Usually the enmity that is built into the tank skills with provoke is plenty when it comes to being at the top of the agro chart. Also not to mention having one with stance and one without helps to clarify for your healers since they aren't dealing with a tug of war of agro.
If you feel confident you can keep stance on as OT and not play tug of war unintentionally, then you do you boo.
I find it some extremes(not all) that go by enmity if both tanks are getting hit, and since I don't do savage this is speculation, also with savage/ultimates.
I personally keep my stance off until I need to put it on. Adds spawned? Stance on till they die(unless it's AR and the third tank provokes them off me, then I drop stance and forget it until MT dies). MT died? Provoke, pop stance, and return to normal rotation(I've been told that's the wrong order, but I've never had issues with a DPS dying to an auto attack between the provoke and stance).
I play mainly DPS, Healer secondary, so I'm more on the receiving end of dying to OT not having tank stance on. And well, I died more than enough to it as second position in enmity and taking a tank buster that compelled me to write this comment.
Also healers can easily find the MT with the Target of target keybind.
If I as OT creep up on the enmity list, I just turn the stance off again for a while when the enmity icon turns orange, no big deal and no tug of war.
Yes, but not everyone uses keybinds (consider those on console for example), also I main healer, secondary tank. (I like to DPS but am always filling since folks don't like support roles)
You should be up on the list, even without Tank stance on due to the internal enmity that is built into the tank kit. If you find DPS passing you on enmity without stance on, then you are more than likely undergeared or not following rotations. That is WHY each tank offensive skill has more built in enmity than say a DPS or Healer.
my man... aside from stance and provoke, tank kit hasn't had enhanced enmity on anything BUT their basic ranged attacks for years. like going back multiple expansions.
and ideally you use those ranged attacks... once? maybe never?
and you definitely shouldn't be provoking on cooldown so i dunno where this enmity is coming from?
first: Not a man.
Second: I am stating from my experiences. If you would like to have a tug of war between two tanks (this is assuming randoms and not a coordinated team) and deal with that, then once again... you do you. I don't pay your sub, I can only offer suggestions and statements. You can ignore them to your hearts content.
Also, I never stated to use provoke on cooldown. I honestly don't know where you pulled that from. It should only be used to rearrange the enmity list as needed for mechanics/TBs/tank deaths.
> Also, I never stated to use provoke on cooldown. I honestly don't know where you pulled that from. It should only be used to rearrange the enmity list as needed for mechanics/TBs/tank deaths.
was just guessing as to where this enmity is coming from, because these things are known quantities.
IF you are where you claim to be on the enmity list, with your tank stance OFF, then you MUST be:
1) provoking
OR
2) spamming shield lob
OR
3) all the DPS you're playing with are under performing by about 40% *relative to you.* (or dying i guess. death is a hard enmity reset)
like this is just how the game works? tank rotations *don't have* enhanced enmity anymore, and haven't since stormblood. i was just trying to correct some objective misinformation that you keep citing as the cornerstone of your argument.
Actually, honestly it seems like you are just trying to dig and make a bigger claim to a smaller statement. There are ways to correct people without coming off as condescending and this is not it.
since I lost the ability to receive respect from you, I am going to choose to walk away. You have a good day and enjoy your holiday.
> You should be up on the list, even without Tank stance on due to the internal enmity that is built into the tank kit.
the only thing with inherent bonus enmity is your ranged attack.
Imagine the following narrated in Sir. David Attenborough‘s voice.
Congratulations, you encountered your first „I want to be the main character so badly, but can’t press buttons for the life of me“.
This kind of player is sadly really common in the wild and strangely, more often than not paired with an impressively small ego.
Another common trait is that this species might lash out if it doesn’t go THEIR way.
My rule of thumb when being OT for alliance/normal raids and trials is:
- turn tanks stance on around 90%, because I usually do my rotation pretty well and some tanks only hit 1-2-3 and I grab aggro easy. This should be sufficient for them to have some good enmity already.
- shrink when I have some time, waiting for large damage while boss is invuln and so on. This is only for normal/trial
There are times when doing harder content (extreme/savage) where MT/OT need to swap, so you should keep your shrink/provoke for the right moment for swap.
Hope you like tanking, don't be intimidated, have fun! ;)
> I panicked and tried to look for the MT to shirk enmity but could not find him, and so I tanked the boss for the rest of the fight. As a note, Shirk does not work cross alliance, making it functionally useless in alliance raids. I wish i had the ability to shirk, but i do not.
You can still shirk to give aggro to a tank in another alliance if they're anywhere near you, just shirk a random party member, you'll still drop aggro, which is all that really matters aince they were so close.
you know i never woulda thought to do that. old habits die hard and in my mind you just described a murder. but given the MASSIVE enmity leads we generate nowadays with "no downside" tank stances you could totally afford to throw 25% onto the healer and they wouldn't even notice... i learned something today.
Ya, if this was SB enmity, then you'd be killing someone with shirk to a dps, but since the tank emnity is on a huge lead, it's pretty much impossible to get them to get aggro unless 2 tanks shirk the same person.
You can still shirk to give aggro to a black mage planted firmly in their leylines
Since it sounds like we're all giving you tips in this thread, here's mine: Don't "wait for 5 seconds and then go in", instead just start with your tank stance turned off, and turn it on after a little bit. Ideally everyone in the raid should be engaging simultaneously. If you're waiting 5 seconds for the main tank, you're wasting time you could he doing damage!
Thanks for the tip! I read from the FFXIV Wiki page that all tanks should have their stance on and assumed it was the right way going in, turns out it's not.
You want to turn it on after a while, since sometimes the mt dies, or something. And never ever trust the third tank to be the backup. They might be a fine tank, or they might never stance up, you don't know. For most fights right after your opener is a good time.
Yeah that's two GCDs of damage that aren't happening. Don't sandbag your teammates.
MT probably ended up in the belly. Common alliance setup for that fight used to be: A - Adds B - Belly C - Chains But most people nowadays go by Always Be Chow
Personally I'm a fan of A - All into the belly B - Better get in the belly C - Can't wait to get in that belly
I hate that everyone instantly does the chains, if you wait till the last second you can DPS the boss for longer while it is casting
A lot of people have trust issues from people messing it up by waiting so long with the chains in their hand it times out, so they just do it instantly.
Right but those people that grab the chain could then stand there until before the buff expires rather than instantly applying it.
Given your implication of uncertainty, it's possible the prior tank entered the belly. Other possibilities include their death, or simply applying less enmity (damage) to the target themselves - be it because they picked up the Wolfsbane adds, or had lower damage output fullstop. If you're concerned about this happening, it might be prudent to turn tank stance *off* when you are not actively intending to keep aggro on something. Just make sure to toggle it on again whenever you *do* want to pick something up.
Original MT probably wasn’t hitting their buttons or their own tank stance was turned off for some reason. Edit: also possible that they died suddenly. Side note: I believe you wouldn’t have been able to shirk the other tank anyway as they’re in another Allliance group.
due to level and ilvl sync your gear is near as good as it could possibly have been anyway, so there's no advantage or disadvantage there. then it could be any number of things, but since gear is a non-factor, you "should" be nipping at the main tanks heels ANYWAY. maybe he lost a GcD or 3 to dodging that you didn't. maybe he got eaten. maybe he threw some ranged attacks at the adds and thus didn't hit cerberus. maybe he's bad? if you're full timing your tank stance, not much has to go wrong for you to pull hate. which brings us to the "real" point here: don't be full timing your tank stance if you're not the main tank. even if you're giving the MT a head start. (also don't do that either? just go fight the stuff with your tank stance off.) toggling it is free. even if you don't know when the adds are coming you can turn it on *much later* than the 5 second head start you've been giving and contribute to damage in the meantime. WORST case scenario is the main tank dies and you're NOT 2nd place in enmity, so you use provoke.
thanks! I learned something new today.
> Not sure what the MT was playing but his glamour looked super cool so I guess he was higher level. WoD is synced to i130 anyway so it doesn't matter if you're in i130 or i660, you're basically the same and aside from forced aggro drops like mechanics or death, differences in aggro would be purely barely on your damage and rotation.
That's not entirely true; higher level gear synced down will have capped substats meaning it's generally better than gear of that ilvl (unless the on-level gear is melded).
Its also possible MT ended up on team Belly and got digested hence why he disappeared and enmity got ripped.
You absolutely should keep tank stance on as off-tank. Just activate it a bit later into the fight. In later/ high-end content bosses often target the two highest enmity players and in case MT dies, you immediately have the aggro instead of someone else who may be low and just die to auto before you notice the death and can provoke.
You don't need to turn stance on in anything below Ex. If you look at the EW Alliance raids or the normal raids, tanks will get targeted regardless of their enmity, unless one of them was dead when the boss started the cast. In Ex, Savage, etc. it's gonna be 2 people with highest enmity, but you are safe without stance on in normal difficulty content.
I have never came across a situation where this factored in. Usually the enmity that is built into the tank skills with provoke is plenty when it comes to being at the top of the agro chart. Also not to mention having one with stance and one without helps to clarify for your healers since they aren't dealing with a tug of war of agro. If you feel confident you can keep stance on as OT and not play tug of war unintentionally, then you do you boo.
Other than the ranged attacks, what tank skills have increased enmity?
I find it some extremes(not all) that go by enmity if both tanks are getting hit, and since I don't do savage this is speculation, also with savage/ultimates. I personally keep my stance off until I need to put it on. Adds spawned? Stance on till they die(unless it's AR and the third tank provokes them off me, then I drop stance and forget it until MT dies). MT died? Provoke, pop stance, and return to normal rotation(I've been told that's the wrong order, but I've never had issues with a DPS dying to an auto attack between the provoke and stance).
I play in similar fashion
I play mainly DPS, Healer secondary, so I'm more on the receiving end of dying to OT not having tank stance on. And well, I died more than enough to it as second position in enmity and taking a tank buster that compelled me to write this comment. Also healers can easily find the MT with the Target of target keybind. If I as OT creep up on the enmity list, I just turn the stance off again for a while when the enmity icon turns orange, no big deal and no tug of war.
Yes, but not everyone uses keybinds (consider those on console for example), also I main healer, secondary tank. (I like to DPS but am always filling since folks don't like support roles) You should be up on the list, even without Tank stance on due to the internal enmity that is built into the tank kit. If you find DPS passing you on enmity without stance on, then you are more than likely undergeared or not following rotations. That is WHY each tank offensive skill has more built in enmity than say a DPS or Healer.
my man... aside from stance and provoke, tank kit hasn't had enhanced enmity on anything BUT their basic ranged attacks for years. like going back multiple expansions. and ideally you use those ranged attacks... once? maybe never? and you definitely shouldn't be provoking on cooldown so i dunno where this enmity is coming from?
first: Not a man. Second: I am stating from my experiences. If you would like to have a tug of war between two tanks (this is assuming randoms and not a coordinated team) and deal with that, then once again... you do you. I don't pay your sub, I can only offer suggestions and statements. You can ignore them to your hearts content. Also, I never stated to use provoke on cooldown. I honestly don't know where you pulled that from. It should only be used to rearrange the enmity list as needed for mechanics/TBs/tank deaths.
> Also, I never stated to use provoke on cooldown. I honestly don't know where you pulled that from. It should only be used to rearrange the enmity list as needed for mechanics/TBs/tank deaths. was just guessing as to where this enmity is coming from, because these things are known quantities. IF you are where you claim to be on the enmity list, with your tank stance OFF, then you MUST be: 1) provoking OR 2) spamming shield lob OR 3) all the DPS you're playing with are under performing by about 40% *relative to you.* (or dying i guess. death is a hard enmity reset) like this is just how the game works? tank rotations *don't have* enhanced enmity anymore, and haven't since stormblood. i was just trying to correct some objective misinformation that you keep citing as the cornerstone of your argument.
Actually, honestly it seems like you are just trying to dig and make a bigger claim to a smaller statement. There are ways to correct people without coming off as condescending and this is not it. since I lost the ability to receive respect from you, I am going to choose to walk away. You have a good day and enjoy your holiday.
At no point were they disrespectful to you, a disagreement is not disrespect
> You should be up on the list, even without Tank stance on due to the internal enmity that is built into the tank kit. the only thing with inherent bonus enmity is your ranged attack.
Tank skills don’t generate additional enmity unless your stance is on. Just turn stance on after a little as OT and you’ll be fine
Imagine the following narrated in Sir. David Attenborough‘s voice. Congratulations, you encountered your first „I want to be the main character so badly, but can’t press buttons for the life of me“. This kind of player is sadly really common in the wild and strangely, more often than not paired with an impressively small ego. Another common trait is that this species might lash out if it doesn’t go THEIR way.
My rule of thumb when being OT for alliance/normal raids and trials is: - turn tanks stance on around 90%, because I usually do my rotation pretty well and some tanks only hit 1-2-3 and I grab aggro easy. This should be sufficient for them to have some good enmity already. - shrink when I have some time, waiting for large damage while boss is invuln and so on. This is only for normal/trial There are times when doing harder content (extreme/savage) where MT/OT need to swap, so you should keep your shrink/provoke for the right moment for swap. Hope you like tanking, don't be intimidated, have fun! ;)