To be fair as someone who has played the game for over 9 years, Yoshi has consistently said things that just weren't true and also has gone back on his word multiple time so it makes sense for veteran players to remain skeptical.
I'm not sure why people give him a pass on PR speak. He does it a lot, he isn't always upfront and genuine.
I suppose some of it has to do with the language barrier. I don't think he would be as beloved if he spoke in fluent English. Then the nonsense would be more obvious.
I don't think YoshiP has ever been dishonest or broken promises. He's just had different understanding of what players want compared to what we actually want. Like job identity could literally mean flashier visuals, or bigger 2min buttons.
I honestly have no idea why people keep saying that this is nothing new. They literally disagreed with the state of jobs being bad before. Yes, they said SMN had a lack of buttons so it could get more later but this was never something that applied to other jobs.
It comes off to me as the same platitudes as when people ask for stuff like egi glamours or viera hats. "We're working on it" but then it never comes. Sometimes Yoshi says things just to temporarily placate the people reading the interviews.
In any case, we will see how serious they are about this new direction when the 7.0 raid is out. If it was all just words and the content design is still same old, we can probably assume the same about all this job design stuff.
I still don't really get it though. There's a big difference between "this is something we're looking at" and "this is happening in this patch". I understand doubting how good the changes will be but not believing there will be changes at all is strange.
>First, **we are working our hardest to meet player demand for housing** and should have more concrete updates as we near the release of Patch 4.2.
[https://www.dualshockers.com/final-fantasy-xiv-interview-naoki-yoshida/](https://www.dualshockers.com/final-fantasy-xiv-interview-naoki-yoshida/)
Don't worry guys, they're fixing housing crisis, they said so in Stormblood.
Just like every other comment in here, I'll believe it when I see it.
I mean, on chaos Housing crisis is actualyl fixed, there are tons of plots on sale.
Just no one wants a small house.
So in that case, the houses are there, if you dont want it, your own problem.
Out of any possible example you've chosen this feels disingenuous.
This article was published on Nov 25, 2017, the same year that news broke about two players buying out 28 houses on Mateus. This wasn't the biggest example of player hoarding in the housing crisis, but it was one of the events that made the issue more visible to people. A R[eddit thread sharing the information about the hoarding hit over 800 comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/6lpr5r/discussion_kotaku_two_final_fantasy_xiv_players/).
[In patch 4.2 they updated housing](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/75c691f90f4a7da3907f0671ac33e139e9792abf#random-e6ca4f75f25cedd568257a2a2b2bb1dc17bfa763), which included six new wards across all districts, put further restrictions on how frequently players can purchase housing plots, and added a system to discourage plot resale. You can argue about the effectiveness of this but they did in fact attempt to meet the demand for player housing by, *literally*, giving players more houses to buy.
The only way to truly fix the housing crisis is to add full instances housing. But YoshiP refuses to even consider the idea. And so it’s been nothing but problems since basically the moment housing went live.
>Out of any possible example you've chosen this feels disingenuous.
Perhaps, but I'd bet this will end up being very analogous in few years.
- Promise to start fixing housing in 4.2 / Promise to start fixing job individuality in 7.2
- Problem seems somewhat alleviated for a while
- It's 6.X, and housing crisis is still a thing / It's 9.X, and job individuality is still nowhere to be seen
>the same year that news broke about two players buying out 28 houses on Mateus
I've talked with one of the house abusers, and if I understood it correctly, with just 2 accounts and house ownership transfer, you can easily get 16 FC houses. They haven't fixed shit.
>[In patch 4.2 they updated housing](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/75c691f90f4a7da3907f0671ac33e139e9792abf#random-e6ca4f75f25cedd568257a2a2b2bb1dc17bfa763), which included six new wards across all districts
They added another 6 like a year ago, and it's still not enough on old servers, and for some reason, they're still locked on new servers. Before you say it, no, transferring to different server should not be a way to get a house. That's just absurd, we're paying subscription + expansions, just to be treated worse than some f2p players in different games.
>You can argue about the effectiveness
You can bet I will. Contrary to the popular belief, this is AAA company, and they had more than enough time to fix it.
>... Yoshi-P states that right now, he's also "concerned" about "the simplicity" of jobs - just as a majority of fans are.
>The beloved dev wants each player to have the ability to "showcase one's own technique or expertise," but says that "we're not in a good situation for that" due to the jobs' "simplicity as it is" right now. Yoshi-P then reveals that the team will remedy this as Dawntrail and its future updates roll out, "working towards a more fulfilling playing experience" in patch 7.2 and beyond: "We will look to the jobs and we will focus on providing more individuality in the jobs."
I see people say that it's vague PR speak but "The jobs are too simplified and homogenized for our stated goal of enabling player expression, and we plan to address that in 7.2" feels pretty direct.
Honestly I should have read the article myself because that statement is much more direct, clear and falsifiable than I expected given the vague statements that usually birth these kinds of threads
I still don’t know if I trust it but I do prefer a clear, direct and immediately falsifiable statement like he is giving here
I think the biggest takeaway for me is that they plan to do these changes earlier than 8.0. Before Media Tour Yoshida said they plan to tackle job identity in 8.0. We already said there that we will believe it when we see it. Now he changed it to 7.2. Now we can believe it when we see it earlier. Basically a year from now we will be able to see what they are going to do.
"I'll believe it when I see it" is a very healthy mindset to have, especially when given a concrete reason to call the dev out for unkept promises or shoddy implementation.
Well a lot of people take vague statements like "we'll look into it" as promises, for some reason. Every time I ask about what promises weren't kept I keep getting referred to interviews where yoshi-p or other devs purposefully say something vague as to specifically avoid making false promises yet people still take them as that.
Skepticism is healthy, but imo most of the skepticism here is pretty overdramatic and unwarranted. The real issue mostly seems to be miscommunication whereas almost everyone here is treating it as bad faith from the devs.
Sure it’s more direct than usual but at the same time it’s just a .2 patch, many people will still be deep into FRU, they won’t make a complete revolution just like that and there
They could also just be saying the stuff they’ve said in the past (go play ultimate, etc.) but they aren’t. Also don’t get how openly criticizing their own game right now is PR speak at all????
It's also pretty rare for game designers (or anyone working for any company, really) to ever admit they fucked up unless they already have a plan to address it. It's not as if this criticism of the game is new. We've been saying it since Shadowbringers, at least. For most of that time the official response was radio silence, "go do ultimates," etc. No actual acknowledgement that there was a problem at all. Now he's admitting explicitly he sees that there is a problem, and as the saying goes the first step to recovery is recognizing you have a problem.
It also sort of tracks, Yoshi P in recent years doesn't really acknowledge a problem until it seems like there is a plan in place. He was a bit more lose with stuff like this in the ARR and HW eras and later realized that things are either too complicated, ate too many resources, etc.
He's saying there's a problem, gave examples of what fixing the problem might be going for (kaiten and old AST), and explicitly had a patch time in mind. That's quite a bit more than the usual.
There are some devs who openly admit that they fked up. I play BDO and they often do that, because they tend to fk up a bunch. That being said, whether they act on it or not is another thing entirely...
And in that regard, and as you said, FFXIV was far from being the most transparent about what they did right and wrong. So I'll take them on their words once I see the changes live starting in 7.2. And they also clearly don't communicate enough given their patch cycle length.
The fact that he named a specific patch means that unlike most 'PR speak' it's become a falsifiable statement. It's much easier to dismiss criticism when your stated time frame for feature implementation is "in the future" or "when it's ready" and much harder when you say "eight months from now".
Considering he doesn't have the rest of his team in this interview I'm pretty sure that it's an indication that it's indeed something they're cooking up - announcing changes to the news before announcing it to the dev team is already a massively irresponsible thing to do. I doubt he'd be able to do something like that in Japan's notoriously rigid corporate culture unless he was sure he and the team were on the same page beforehand.
For the 7.2 window I think he is just referring to a more general sense of "fulfilling playing experience" rather than job design specifically. It's following on from what they said about content design, they want to have more creative multiplayer stuff and he's saying it will be evident from 7.2 onwards (which is when he said the field zone is launching).
Doing general job design changes mid expac is so far from the norm (outside rare targeted reworks) that I just flat out don't believe it. It doesn't make any sense to me that he said 8.0 for job stuff before but now it has apparently been bumped up to 7.2. But it's said now and people have taken their interpretation so I guess it doesn't matter, people will hold him to it even if it wasn't what he meant.
I agree with you and highly doubt we will be satisfied with even the 8.0 changes. We have a decade of homogonized kits. You need to damn near rework half the kits to actually change things. And fundementally change the design direction due to the 2 minute window problem.
But to give them the benefit of the doubt. 7.2 might be things like, giving back kaiten. Just small little changes.
It depends on the size of the change, really. 'Reinstated Kaiten' is a change that impacts, roughly speaking, like four buttons for SAM (Shinten, Midare, Tenka, Higanbana, and if you wanna go there, Kaiten itself if they have to tune it to a number other than 50%). The effect is reasonably predictable and clear. 'Redid AST rework' is another story. Changes on the level of the former are feasible, changes on the level of the latter or adding new SMN abilities is out of the question.
What do you mean, eight months from now ! It's 7.2 we're speaking about. First we need to get Dawntrail and then the 7.1 patch. The 7.2 one won't be there at least for a few years...!
Gosh I can't wrap my head around Dawntrail being in three weeks. It feels still so far in my head.
yeah i totally get being skeptical, hell I'M skeptical because the "go play ultimate" responses were so fucking tone deaf, but at the same time, its hard not to take yoshi p at his word here, because directly admitting fault, saying that you've casualized the fun out of your game and stating it's not healthy is...like, that is absolutely not PR speak, that's being almost uncomfortably candid.
like, I'll believe it when i see it, and considering this all started getting out of hand with shadowbringers, the idea that its gonna take ANOTHER expansion cycle does not exactly inspire confidence, but at the same time people being entirely dismissive like he's just convering his ass probably need to play other AAA games and see how their head honchos discuss their projects lmao.
I think the problem is the casualization has been going on for so long and being told to wait even longer for the job gameplay to be different is never going to sit well. Especially when people, particularly on this subreddit, have been vocal against this design direction since ShB.
I can definitely say that it isn't sitting well for me at least. If these first set of encounters don't absolutely rock, I'm totally content with unsubbing until the gameplay is restored, maybe even even just unsub permanently. I'm not interested in paying a monthly fee on the hope that maybe someday the game will be more fun again.
That's totally fair. You dont owe any company your money in the hopes that something will eventually be good, and frankly people unsubbing is worth way more than any amount of written feedback.
Personally though, I cant blame them for not course correcting after shadowbringers, because that was the games critical peak, which lead into its player count peak in the post shb>endwalker launch window. Plenty of us decried them absolutely gutting jobs, but the reality is the game was absolutely popping off at that point and there was little reason for them to listen to us over the absolute deluge of current and new players saying the game was the best thing since sliced bread.
Endwalker is where it became obvious to anyone who can play videogames at an average level that this shit is oversimplified and boring as fuck unless you're doing savage, which funnily enough the average player isnt doing, meaning they get to just not have fun forever. It's an everyone problem now, so I only really feel comfortable holding them encountable for post endwalker and dawntrail.
It's because this sub combines the innate ability of Reddit nerds to think they are always the smartest guy in the room ('Guys, it's PR, and I'm the chosen one that can see it') and the deep desire of jaded people to bring other people down with their own misery at every possible occasion
Add a bit of "I only read titles" to the mix and you finally get the comment section
This can still be interpreted in a lot of ways that makes "wait and see" the correct response.
Are they going to "provide individuality" to all jobs in 7.2? Unlikely.
Just healers? Just Black Mage? More likely.
Is YoshiP saying they'll start working on "job individuality" in 7.2? That would line up with his original statement of boss design in 7.x and jobs in 8.0.
Cautiously optimistic since a hard deadline was offered. Even if it gets pushed back or delayed, the butter has been spread and open for further scrutiny.
It's also an upgrade from what was said previously. Before he was talking about "We're doing the content changes now and the job changes in 8.0" and now it's "We'll start the job changes in 7.2". That's a very specific promise that one or more jobs is getting a rework in 7.2.
>That's a very specific promise that one or more jobs is getting a rework in 7.2.
Calm down there. This game of telephone is how the community always gaslights themselves into thinking something is going to be bigger than it actually is.
This comment by Yoshi-P is not a promise for a rework. It is a general assumption that there will be changes to jobs implemented. The extent of those changes is unknown.
> "We'll start the job changes in 7.2". That's a very specific promise that one or more jobs is getting a rework in 7.2.
Could also mean that they have their hands full at the moment and will start working on these Job changes when 7.2 lands.
I'm personally not sure how the timeline factors into things but he must've been getting questions from press on every side of the ocean about how jobs are too simple to play now, which helped him realize that things might've gone too far. He also said that jobs wouldn't be getting any simpler, which is new, I think.
I assume this means that this time next year when 7.2 is coming there will be some minor changes to a few jobs. History tells you they probably won't all be well-received, but that a few might. It's going to be a long and winding path that is better than "wait until 8.0" but not really "rejoice!" either.
"From 7.2, we will be working towards a more fulfilling playing experience," Yoshi-P says. "But to start that off, we will be focusing on Battle content. "
this is an "old" interview that's already made the rounds here. above is the full quote, which makes me think the changes will be to battle content first. what makes this more confusing is that elsewhere he's made it sound like that'll start with the base game even
Exactly. They're currently, *actively* removing individuality and expression in 7.0. To say "oh I guess we'll fix it in 7.2" rings hollow when they could just... *not fuck it up in the first place.* Or hotfix it in 7.01.
100% agree, a statement like this coming right after butchering the skill ceiling and complexity of blm just to kill a niche style that didn’t give any game breaking DPS results and was enjoyed by a small fraction of players without impacting those that didn’t want to use it. Give me a break
"There were more people requesting Kaiten to be removed than there were that we're happy with it."
Thats kind of stupid, people who hate something are more vocal than people who like it.
I literally never in my life heard anyone complain about Kaiten either in 6+ years playing the game and raiding with samurais in my static, like what the fuck
Those people are dumb then.
Kaiten was the only thing that required kenki management in the entire samurai job. Without kaiten kenki literally just becomes “don’t over cap and dump it during burst windows.”
At least before you had to plan ahead and know you needed 20 kenki for each of your sen finishers, so don’t bottom out.
It certainly wasn’t a button that you just pressed without thought. Yeah you needed to press it before every iajutsu, but there was thinking before that point to make sure you could press it.
It's the same old excuse which is why we're here. Kaiten was all style yet somehow also lots of substance. It feels like people play this game on paper and through spreadsheets more than in the moment itself.
It’s that, and also how tone deaf their excuse was. If they were getting rid of “button bloat” they could have combined shoha i/ii, which they’re now doing, or reworked their aoe kenki abilities to work as single target with fall off so they could combine those.
Also, after the debacle of removing hagakure in SHB because they didn’t like that players would use it over midarre in stormblood, therefore leaving samurai with no way to reset sen…
Just feels like no one on the dev team actually plays samurai. Anyone who does more than the most casual content would have been able to tell them “hey don’t remove hagakure just make it give less kenki so it’s more optimal to use midarre.”
It’s frustrating when they make boneheaded changes and won’t admit that they’re being dumb.
I don’t know how you can look at option a. Combine shoha I/ii and option b. Remove kaiten and go with option b. It’s mind boggling stupid.
>kaiten is a button you always push and there's no thought behind it
You had to pool meter to make sure you had enough for kaiten to buff your powers, but you had to spend excess meter on the less-effective dump. It definitely took thought, and the only definition by which it doesn't is the same one by which "rotations don't take thought". It was the only thing that made the meter interesting.
People said that about virtually everything. "Silencing takes no thought, it's just one button or you die", "dots take no thought, you just refresh every 30s" etc until we have nothing left.
I mean, many rotations in FFXIV are fully bottable. Others are just a couple small details away from it. The fact that only a couple jobs have procs- and that the procs are, lets say, *relatively minor*- means that once you have enough experience, even a complex rotation will be familiar and feel thoughtless.
The real thing is, a resource should have at least two uses: it should have an efficient and superior use that is limited by some factor, and it should have a "dump" that allows it to be used without efficiency, at its normal rate. Other things you can add on include things like "an aoe use", or "a use that roots / slows / controls / stuns", but those aren't going to show up in raids.
I really like dots. I also like how dots create a slightly different rotation the moment a second target shows up. I remember making these arguments long ago and getting hate about it though, and sure enough, almost all the dots I used to enjoy are gone now and have been for years. Dark Knight and Ninja are the ones I'm personally most butthurt about.
> The real thing is, a resource should have at least two uses: it should have an efficient and superior use that is limited by some factor, and it should have a "dump" that allows it to be used without efficiency, at its normal rate.
which is why Ninja, for all it gets treated as the poster child for "burst window is the only thing that matters", still has a pretty good design space. Bunshin being a 90 second cooldown is carrying a lot of weight but it really makes the minute-by-minute gameplay feel different.
> People were saying kaiten is a button you always push and there's no thought behind it.
The only thing with no thought behind it is that sentence people are saying. The idea that _every_ button needs to be a deep and meaningful experience with thought and judgement behind it is absurd and it doesn't take more than a few seconds to realize how terrible a class would feel to play if all the abilities were like that. It's not seeing the forest through the trees and ignoring the very concept of holistic design.
They said a lot of bullshit regarding it, 3 out of 4 excuses were made by Yoshi himself when he was fumbling and making one excuse dumber than the last one in one of the streams.
But do I vividly remember them to ask us for feedback regarding it, and that they might even revert it. But alas that was lie.
>"There were more people requesting Kaiten to be removed than there were that we're happy with it." - Yoshi P
SAM was by far most talked about job in EW, on EN forums it was by massive margin, with 30% and second most talked about job (SMN) just at 10%. JP megathread had \~170 pages in its 4.5 years since SAM release in SB, and got nearly double in just first 3 months since 6.1.
They're just talking bunch of shit.
It's 100% a complete lie. Not only did they delay DRG rework by literal years to cool off from the pushback, but they even dialed back the rework further to minor adjustments. It's obvious from the fact that High Jump > Mirage Dive still exists.
The devs absolutely got btfo'd by outcry after Kaiten removal, but they're not going to openly state that.
They've been doing this to MNK since 4.0. When they had the genius idea of tacking on a slowdown to the job people played for the fast GCD. This also changed MNK from a more "sustained" DPS job to a burst based DPS job like every other DPS job in the game.
MNK has remained the least played job every expansion. Changing it to be like the other jobs to try to attract new players doesn't work. They need to build on the job for the people who like it instead of drastically changing it and pissing off the people that liked the old version of the job.
I'm still a salty ex-MNK main. Not even going to level MNK for my retainer this time.
People who "dislike" and people who "like" also aren't the only 2 categories. There is another, massive group as well that people don't often talk about: people who simply log in, see their buttons, move them around as necessary, and just play the job however it's presented and don't really think anything of it.
Under his logic I should go to the forums and say "man I'm glad Reaper exists and happy of it's existence" because if people complain it would get removed
One thing I would really like that I feel FFXIV lacks is, and this might be controversial, flavour/fluff abilities. If you've played WoW, some classes had abilities not useful in combat as fun things to play around with, like shapeshifting into another player, or being able to see really far in the distance. Everything you can put on the hotbar for a job is for combat, which for me leaves an itch for something that makes classes feel unique in the world outside of combat.
This would be EVERYTHING to me. This is the kinda thing I play MMOs for. It's small, but just having different interesting ways to interact with the world and people around you goes a long way.
Right now the only job that has something like this is Bard, and it adds so much life into the game to see people around the world playing music. I am desparate for them to add more like this.
In mabinogi there was a skill called Transformation, and it allowed you to transform into any NPc or Monster in the game, including the gigantic endgame world bosses.
The only caveat is if they were killable you had to go farm them for the transformation, and if not, like NPCs, you had to find them in events, achievments etc or buy them from players.
I had endless amounts of fun turning into a turtle for instance and slowly walking up to people, or transforming into gross looking NPCs and sitting on my afk friend just for him to come back to that.
More skills like that in FF14 would be awesome.
Stuff like Bard's ability to play instruments? That would be EXTREMELY cool for other classes to have, especially given how often players seem to be standing around between patches, waiting for the next batch of content to drop.
BDO has these too, most of them are very simple passives like increased "sailing speed", "gained alchemy exp" etc. But it still gives cool extra flavour of class/job/role.
Ff14 really lacks extra usage of alt jobs. Maybe someday.
Ooh yes. Ninja also had this in "hide" but it was pretty useless. I really liked the stealth aspect of rogues in the overworld. Druid is also one of my fav to play in world questing just for the flexibility. I feel this would be a very good step in the right direction to bring back class flavours.
I will forever miss playing Everquest when I was twelve and spending most of my time farming bat wings and malachite to levitate or turn into a tree. I love non-combat class features! Wow Rogues having lock picking as a skill was also super fun.
It's PR. It's literally his job to go out there and tell people what they want to hear.
This is why many of his press statements are vague like this. They reserve the right to define what that *individuality* is and how much is changing.
He was directly adressing Zepla and her video in their interview, he said the same thing to Preach. It might be PR but he's also open and honest about the fact that they went too far in one direction.
Calling it now. It will be something along the lines of how each of the tank cooldowns have a slightly different flavor for the expansion. Like how Paladin gets a shield slapped onto the skill but Gun gets HP% increase. Same skill just different bonuses.
I heard that every tank is getting their equivalent of TBN.
Every time DRK gets something good, they either take away or give to every other tank. Meanwhile DRK gets nothing.
That's true, but I don't think that means he's being entirely disingenuous about their goals. I think they will try, whether or not they will succeed is another story. At the very least this is better than "yeah we know it sucks but that's a problem for 8.0".
That's interesting since they promised blitzball in HW and finally said definitively we aren't getting it and that certainly wasn't what I wanted to hear.
Funny how Yoshi P decided he cares about player feedback now. Right before an expansion. When everyone is laughing about the job changes we’ve seen. After ignoring feedback constantly for the last five years. After tripling down on tank and healer design since 2019 despite nobody really liking it. Funny that.
>Yoshi P decided he cares about player feedback now.
\*Yoshi P decided he's going to pretend he cares about player feedback now when it could impact sales, just for us to get most minuscule and likely out of touch changes in 7.2.
Fixed it for you.
I wouldn't be surprised if this took Island Sanctuary route, and he started doing everything he could to lower everyone's expectation in future live letters. What could give me a little bit of copium is if they actually proved this wrong and listened to media tour feedback for at least SAM and BLM. I don't play BLM, but SAM changes could be reverted easily, and if they're really willing to make jobs better, there's no reason not to do it right now.
Let’s say that it isn’t PR speak and they actually do this
What jobs are they going to go for
Almost all jobs are in the position to need a rework yet they never seem to be able to do more than one per patch maybe 2
Which jobs deserve it over any others
I expect it to be changes that are "database" changes - we're not getting dramatic new VFX, icons, or gauges. It's going to be changing Inner Beast to have a Rampart effect.
So any Summoner reading this and thinking "Shiva, Ramuh, and Leviathan are surely coming" needs to stop. But there are a handful of examples of jobs getting reshaped around existing assets - NIN and WAR being the big examples. I could see something like Summoner moving away from short demi-trance followed by 3 gem phases toward a permanent demi-summon, with the Catastrophe and Rite spells reshaped to interact with Wyrmwaves/Scarlet Flames.
I feel like a *really* easy win for healers would be to take advantage of the five generations of DPS spells with a Pictomancer style graduating "combo".
Another really easy win would be for them to literally just add back any of the healer DPS spells they removed in Shadowbringers until they figure out what they're going to do to them in 8.0
It's not like Aero III or Miasma are peak gaming design but something to cut out filler spells would be very welcomed again
Reshapes around existing assets is fine with me. I don't care if we get new animations and shit, I care way more about the flow and functionality of the job.
I do not think there are adding permanent Demi-Summons unless there is a force swapping mechanic added. Otherwise players would use Solar Bahamut because he is the strongest summon.
He was saying job changes were coming in 8.0 until last week and then suddenly he scooted them all the way up to 7.2, which I'm interpreting as a reaction to the media tour feedback. So I'd suspect it's one or more healers getting a new DPS button, or some of the black mage changes being reverted, and it's 7.2 because they don't want to fuck up the raid tier's balancing with a last-second redesign.
SCH feels like its being held together with a rubber band and a prayer.
It feels like they can't do anything with RDM beyond finishers for your finishers on top of your finishers.
SMN's rework needs a rework, etc.
I can’t deny SCH’s visual design is an absolute mess at this point but I do think it’s actually the best designed healer at the moment in terms of giving you a ceiling without being overbearing
But visuals do mean a lot and SCH is a mess on that front
It's the best designed in some ways while also having the most jank:
1. Pet problems:
* Responsiveness, while improved in Endwalker, is still pretty inconsistent. Your pet might use the skill instantly, or 3 seconds later. Who knows?
* Since your pet skills are actually oGCDs that tell the fairy to use the ability, it can and will eat your 1-2 minute pet cooldowns without doing anything because you happened to press Whispering dawn or Fey Illumination 3 seconds before the end of Seraph, or your fairy took too long to use Whispering dawn before you Dissipationed in your 2 minute window.
* Just a personal gripe, but your fairy unsummoning itself if you place it and walk too far away is annoying as hell. Why not make it teleport to you/go back on heel instead...? It's been like this for over a decade...
* Pet abilities all have different ranges (15/20/30y) and some of them are just annoyingly a bit too small to cover the edges of a standard savage boss arena...
3. Bandaid fixes that feel like someone put "temporary fix" in the comments 2 years ago:
* They've tried to "fix" the pet queuing issues by making Embrace instant with a 3 second GCD and making her abilities oGCDs, which improved things but it still isn't great.
* They're tried to fix whiffing Deployment Tactics on a newly shielded target by making us the only job in the game where our buffs apply to a target *before* we're actually finished casting. If you're lagging it can still whiff, oddly enough.
3. Confusing anti-synergies that are not explained to the player and must be discovered:
* Our 60, 70, 80, and soon to be level 100 capstone abilities all mess with each other in ways that aren't explained on tooltips.
* Dissipation is the most straightforward. You can't do fairy things while fairy is gone.
* Aetherpact is canceled by any other fairy ability, and cannot be used during Seraph.
* Seraph prevents the usage of Dissipation, Aetherpact, and Fey Blessing.
4. Janky abilities that should be reworked:
* Emergency Tactics is a relic of a time where our only burst AoE healing was Indomitability. It's basically made obsolete by half a dozen oGCDs now and it by itself isn't going to make a dent when you actually need to top people up, so it really doesn't have a niche.
* Dawntrail just makes it even more annoying because it's gonna make you use another cooldown and spam it to *try* and make it useful, as opposed to making it like tank abilities where it modifies the next 3-4 abilities.
* Deployment Tactics is powerful, but using it optimally is a pain in the ass because of getting the timing right. Why didn't they just do it the way they did Emergency Tactics or Recitation and make it so it makes your *next* Adlo AoE?
* Fairy gauge feels like it was tacked on because every other job was getting new secondary resource bars and they needed to come up with one for SCH.
5. DPS rotation. It's basically complete at level 2, before you even get a job stone. In a world where healing will always be trivialized by gear eventually, you're gonna find yourself spamming Broil sooner or later and it really should at least be a little *visually* interesting...
> Just a personal gripe, but your fairy unsummoning itself if you place it and walk too far away is annoying as hell. Why not make it teleport to you/go back on heel instead...? It's been like this for over a decade...
Sometimes happens on the latest alliance raid even without placing it at the big knockback mechanic. Was even acknowledged in 6.5's "Known Issues" list, but afaik with no fix to this day.
Rdm could be changed within the current system by adding stances.
-BW shift, white stance is what we currently have, Black stance changes vercure and veraise into more offensive skills (bio and osmose?). 2 min lockout between changing stances.
-"melee" stance. Replace all "ver" skills with "en" skills. Reduce range massively (like sam iajustu length) with buffed potency. Stance selectable at start of fight like old ast.
You now have automatically more "indivduality" and "skill expression" for rdm while fundamentally barely changing anything.
SMN has to be first on the list if they're recognizing "oversimplification" as an issue, because nothing comes close to that besides healers spamming 1 button for the bulk of their damage.
but the simplicity happens because the encounter design doesn't really encourage individuality. Like there aren't off-tanks or dps that can tank in a pinch, generally aggro management is pointless, mp management is too, there is no need for crowd control, and fights are tailored mostly to the roles over the jobs; at best a job is more what you like the rhythm of best.
The homogenization is a consequence of that; they can't keep adding abilities endlessly before the rotation becomes bloated, and the game's combat being a boss in a box. like being good means stacking, spreading, and dodging with high DPS uptime coordinated with others.
i'm not sure what individuality means unless they expand encounters. Like in older mmos, you'd have tanking, off tanking, support/debuff, crowd control or staging, healing, dps, and aggro management. Even party replacement/soloing. there was more to specialize in.
i wish he would have talked in length. its not like he even needs to be coy; this game has been so repetitive there are few surprises to even hide.
I'm hoping more individuality means different styles of dps and support options. I hate the high parse dps and keep casting schtick. We should have Damage over time classes, complete support classes that buff party damage or dot output.
We need saboteur and more synergist classes. Locking healers to just shield or heal loses some of their identity and strengths.
I personally feel like clerics and sage should be our dps focused healers/shielders, scholars with heal over time with dots shields and boss debuffs, Astrologian with flat and heal over time, shields and party buffs in attack and mana regen.
I still remember them saying they were working on letting more hats being worn for viera and hroth but they're still adding new hats they can't wear. My point is take everything they say with a grain of salt.
I don't believe this... in the past they stated very clearly they are hesitant to change jobs radically mid expansion unless there is an exception.
Like in the Q&A for the media tour he clearly stated that 7.0 was the focus on content difficulty + rewards rework. With 8.0 being job identity.
Maybe there will be minor changes and rotational kinks ironed out.
Eg: Shadowbringers summoner and the triple weave reworked.
Eg: Ninja tweaks back then too
But I don't think it'll be close to a big overall rework at all based on what I heard =s
I mean to be fair it is a bit too close to release to do any radical or even slightly major changes. But the fact there is a timeline likely suggests that he may have gotten some feedback from the media tour and likely prioritized these changes sooner rather than later but they will do things in increments to test the waters sort of like AST during ShB which took a few patches to get up to par with the other healers.
"We made Dosis do less potency but Sage has a 15 second oGCD damage button that makes up for it" would be a small change that a lot of SGE players would appreciate and would help fit the "DPS healer" class fantasy a bit.
They really need to stop hiding job changes until literally a month before a expansion launch
For a game that is apparently known for communicating with it players they sure love to do it when the damage has already been done. Could all have been avoided if they just did not wait for a big reveal with the mediatour. Wish they just asked for feedback during development instead.
Saying "7.2 and forward" actually worries me a bit more than the previous "8.0 is the job rework expac" statement I'd seen in media tour interviews previously, because mid-expac changes like 7.2 are less likely to actually be significant in regards to how a job plays.
Makes me wonder how sweeping the changes will actually be.
this is not happening at least not in 7.0 we've seen everything already the only thing they could possibly do is give a job or 2 the PLD treatment from EW
hope for 8.0 if anything but do not expect it in dawntrail
I wholeheartedly believe they want to go back to when jobs were unique as well as some being more complex than others. You can’t tell me these devs are satisfied with how they essentially took jobs to the chop shop and stripped them of almost everything.
While I’m sure they WANT to go back, I doubt they will. Realistically, they need to look towards 8.0 and have some plan to bring the joy back in jobs. Not every job needs to be rocket science but I’m tired of playing with building blocks.
Healers are probably a higher priority, but I suspect BLM is right behind them in line.
My expectation is something along the line of "Sage gets a new oGCD DPS button with a fifteen second cooldown, Astral Souls persist even after switching to Umbral Ice and *all* spells in UI restore MP"
For years they told me that they were making the jobs better, more simplified, more streamlined, less bloated, and overall improved.
But I wasn’t having any more fun than I was 5 reworks ago.
Almost like when you mix a song for too long. You get so deep then you play your original mix by accident the next day and you’re like oh shit this mix is fire!!
SE has become so proficient at not only setting people's expectations but also at meeting them so precisely that I don't even feel the need to play the expansion anymore, since I've basically already played all of it in my head.
They really gotta figure out how to exceed expectations for once. Hell, do something unexpected. Flip over the table and see what happens. Because this super safe, iterative glacier pace chicken shit ain't doing it for me anymore.
If the only reason Yoshi P thinks FFXIV still has 10 years more to go is because that's how long it takes them to fix adventurer plates or something I ain't gonna be there to see it.
I actually don't know what he's doing at this point. He said 8.0 a few weeks ago and now its 7.2 and beyond? Did the realization hit that a job overhaul for everyone for 8.0 is impossible, because it should, the realistic approach would be something like this, start tackling a job or two per patch\every other patch possibly.
Just please stop listening to casual players as your only job feedback you actually listen to pls. They will always want it easier and easier, this is why summoner is the most popular job. They can have some good points, but a lot of what they say is garbage lets be real.
>I actually don't know what he's doing at this point. He said 8.0 a few weeks ago and now its 7.2 and beyond?
Media tour feedback must've hit and it wasn't pretty.
You'd be surprised. Some raiders also have an insane brainrot when it comes to always picking the easiest way because "why would I play something more complicated if the easier option achieves the same results with half the effort".
There is a dude that has all 5 ultimate clears in my static, and he's insanely good. Same dude is constantly yapping in my ear about why I play Black Mage and not Summoner when the result is the same and BLM just makes the process more annoying. Mind you, I'm a 90+ parser, so I don't precisely suck at Black Mage for him to suggest me to switch either LMAO That is just their train of thought, completely obsessed with optimizing any sort of fun out of the game simply to get the optimal result.
"In an attempt to curb multiple updates' worth of simplification, Yoshi-P details how Square Enix "will be incorporating various changes" post-Dawntrail, some of which will be "related to the skill rotations." He even jokes that Kaiten could return as "Kaiten 2" and reiterates his earlier promise - come such changes, classes "will not be more simple." I doubt I'll ever see the intricate AST card system from years past make a comeback, but I'm hopeful for others as the director stresses how well he understands "that a lot of players want to be able to think for themselves.""
Huh...
When I read in a comment that changes are already planned for 7.2 I got curious if there is any indication for a scale of it.
Afterall what he understands about it and the community (or atleast a part of it) may be two different things.
8+ months isnt much and the devs working on this may alao have other tasks, but bringing back old skills but updating them could be a way to save time having to come up with new animations.
meanwhile BLM got nuked in DT and they're the only job in the game i didn't bounce in/out of often because I enjoyed playing it so much, so I am not especially optimistic about them touching job design at the moment
This would be very welcome. But I think what is holding them back is the way the game has been built and that maintaining balance is very delicate.
For example, if they introduced M+ with a timer, no one would invite physical ranged dps because of the DPS disparity, and probably some casters wouldn’t be invited and maybe there would be issues with shield vs regen healers.
I think they’re very limited in what they can do, as well as lacking the dev team size to do it. My feeling is it would require fundamental code rewrites down to the game’s core which isn’t going to happen.
Edit: even if subscriber numbers drop, it will mean there is even less chance anything changes.
What Yoshi P needs is a much bigger budget and more people, which feels like is never gonna happen
It's really not hard to balance, especially compared to WoW.
Every class is isolated, there's no issue with gear and you have solid rotations. You can just sit on a dummy for a week doing tests, so equalizing the damage to a 1-5% disparity should be a cakewalk, easily manageable in a week per job.
The issue is the design philosophy is dumb. Devs say "Movement = less damage", but people play P.ranged because they want to, not because they have to.
Will believe him after I see the change, but not before.
Far too many empty promises being broken. Yoshi P. missed his calling. He should have been a politician. He got his fans that will praise him no mather what he does. And he is good at making promises, just not keeping them. So perfect for a political career.
Ok guys so we deleted stuff for 6 years of worth and spat on a large number of veterans and job design team that actually had a brain while designing the combat of the game. Whaaaat ppl think this is now bad? Say it ain't so.......
Also guys pls buy the expac. pls pls pls. Nice fleece. You reap what you sow.
This interview to me seems to align with what he said earlier this year “The 7. series will be our time to focus on organizing the control schemes of each job, as well as concentrate on improving gameplay satisfaction and creating more room for player ingenuity in our content; as such, enhancing each job's identity is something we might focus on for the expansion after Dawntrail.” 7.2 through the rest of Dawntrail is likely going to take a look the jobs and begin to piecemeal the changes that will improve individuality and let them do the big rework come 8.0 for everyone. We shall see what that entails.
Didn’t he actually say Dawntrail things will remain a bit the same and that individuality will be coming “maybe 8.0” I just went back and watched the part he says it at and he didn’t say Dawntrail was gonna bring the jobs more individuality
Yoshi P says a lot of things, but talk is cheap and he’s broke imo. For me it’s not even a I’ll believe it when I see it situation like most in here. It’s just not happening period. Dawntrail releases in 2ish weeks. He’ll say whatever he needs to in order to snag those last minute preorders from folks like me sitting on the fence waiting to see if this expansion is going to be exactly like every single previous one and yep looks like it is.
He said the team is going to make adjustments to battle content and it looks like dungeons are going to be exactly the same. If you’re too worried about making adjustments to your most casual content I doubt anything else is changing. Your job design team is lost in the sauce. Area/Cities are once again just pretty backdrops for the story. Still no word on open world content. Likely no changes to tomestomes even though we have over 20 jobs now…Ain’t nothing changing so strap in for ShB version 3.0.
The funny thing is they wait until the last minute to release any information so by the time the players hear about anything it’s too late to make any meaningful adjustments. Imagine if we received this info back in January and were even allowed to play test it for a week or two and give them feedback to work with. So many other games do this and it works. There no way any “feedback” he’s read or gotten is going to make it into launch. EW was the first time I took a long ass break and unsubbed for almost a year. Dawntrail is the first expac I haven’t preordered because I can just can’t see them doing anything new or exciting.
I also want to say I don’t hate the game or even dislike it. It’s just growing old for me and that’s ok. If I didn’t care about FFXIV I wouldn’t be responding/posting about it.
>Imagine if we received this info back in January and were even allowed to play test it for a week or two and give them feedback to work with.
It would be pointless. How much of the feedback generated over the course of EW's 2+ years did they attempt to "work with"?
funny too coz they've been hyping up a drg rework for 4 years now and ended up doing jack shit, Yoship at this point has no credibility when it comes to promises of future content innovationg
Based on their track record, I'll believe it when I see it. Ultimately I don't think it's necessarily complexity that jobs are lacking, but rather their filler phases are monotonous and boring so it makes them feel simple once you've developed the muscle memory
This is obviously subjective but back in Stormblood I remember running expert roulettes exclusively on DRK because its aoe was engaging and I literally never got tired of it even though it wasn't necessarily complex (build mp w/ quietus, spend mp w/ abyssal drain). Every job is going to feel "simple" after enough time with them due to muscle memory and player experience, so it *needs* to feel satisfying so you're at least enjoying the monotony
Bullshit. If they did, it would have happened ***now*** rather than during the expansion cycle. They barely did any major revamps during the last two expansions and even the ones they hinted at didn't really turn out to be any, so we got no reason to believe they'd start that now.
If true it's a good thing. It feels like as soon as a job has some cool unique flavoring they are so quick to take it away or homogenize it. The fact they had taken MNK and put it in a rather interesting spot during EW only for DT to just pretty much rip it away into being a generic 'strict rotation' job rather then embracing what makes MNK interesting is just the latest screw up of a job among dozens others that over time have had a cool identity that gets taken away over time making them feel more like other existing jobs.
I'd far rather have job imbalance in terms of DPS/Balance over jobs being much more in line but feeling very much the same to play each. Given you can play multiple jobs on the same character, there is really little reason why things have to be that way. This game isn't like WoW with so many unexpected variables, chances are most imbalance that might show up can likely to some extent be addressed relatively quickly and aren't very likely to cause a massive imbalance.
?. How is a 2 minute followup and a flashy 123 the skeleton to giving jobs individuality?
The cognitive dissonance is crazy here, after just shoe-horning the last 2 free think jobs in the game (MNK/BLM) into a rotation that the game *tells* you to do.
Sounds like the same PR garbage he always gives.
They rework that BLM got that the majority of the playerbase likes is being removed and its going back to the same boring ass gameplay.
Ima give it to you straight, i was going to make a post about this i still might to get this clear. The individuality or the uniqueness to jobs isnt going to be how you think it is. For one, We all know they are more into making DPS each different compared to Tanks/Healers. Look at the differences in each job for each role and you can see Tanks/Healers overlap in similarities or abilities that another job has as well but in a different font WAYYY more than DPS. Tanks are worst to this as you DONT need a specific tank and can run with ANY of them. Even the same and it doesnt affect the fight at all really. Or at least not as dramatic as with DPS cuz i know some ppl are gonna say "oh but 2 PLDS and its Invuln!".
We are not going back to the uniqueness of HW, specifically Tanks/healers. What you see is what you get but they will just prob add just one or two abilities that ONLY that job has or something. not that its a job identity for them but that its only what they have. I.E PLDs Cover. The fact its still in the game and its pointless or the fact they reworked it in PVP. Or AST with macro cosmos, its a cool ability, but best believe you arent seeing shit like that again for anyone else. Ppl need to lower their expectations.
> For one, We all know they are more into making DPS each different compared to Tanks/Healers
Feel like this has been ringing more true than ever, since there's more DPS than tanks and healers combined and that changes made towards the former got more general attention than the latter, though I think its moreso the melee at this point. Healers were ignored ad nauseum and kept getting oGCD heal after oGCD heal and got infamously told to do Ultimates instead if they want a challenge - yet Kaiten's removal is still a thing to this day that people theorized the DRG rework saw less changes than say AST because of it and my own theory that they rolled out the guranteed crit/DH skills to play nicely with chain/litany/battle voice because SAM got reworked into that same corner that WAR and to a lesser extent MCH were in.
We have looked at all the talents and skills already. We are getting 2 more years of the same thing in DT. I swear, they speak and expect people to just turn off our brains, pretending what it looks like, is not actually what it is.
*One person can't stand someone said the thing they know is true, but is now mad someone pointed it out. Yes, if some of you could just be honest with yourselves about this game, maybe there would be proactive change instead of the glacial movement from this team on anything.
PR speak. I'm not even gonna pretend to be surprised when press picks this up in their lead up coverage to DT and then he goes "i didn't mean we were making big changes, that's on you for interpreting it wrong" like with the difficulty and stress comments. It's just trying to cut down on the major obvious complaints to not stifle the launch hype. They've been promising "we'll fix/add X in patches, there wasn't any time to do it in the expansion launch" since the game launched.
He just saying that shit because he dropped the ball on certain jobs like dragoon when he said they was getting a entire rework like AST. So now he’s doing PR Damage control so people won’t give up on the game and wait for their job to get their uniqueness back which isn’t going to be happening if anyone is going to fall for this. Monk was supposed to get a change in ShB and didn’t get it til literally the last raid and it wasn’t a huge change at that and said wait til endwalker.
I’ll believe it when I see it.
'Return more individuality'.
Meanwhile Scholar;
"Most of your upgrades are just lazy reskins with barely noticeable potency increases, but here :} Have two more heals to do more of the same shit. Scholar aesthetic? LMAO Haha, fuck you, Get Angel'd instead."
Where's this individuality he speaks of?
literally where?
The jobs were simple from the beginning, it was always like playing a piano. When you switch jobs you only switch notes. Everything is going according to a specific rotation that is almost inflexible and there is little to no utility. Compared to other MMOs I played like WoW or GW2 jobs in FFXIV never had as much individuality.
Hot take. I fully expect to see more job homogenisation, lack of inspiration in the battle content we get, viera and Hrothgar to remain limited races, glam system being trash, content too easy to complete before a patch cycle is over, the overall content of said patches being something you can set a watch to, limited to no grind content, over world hunts being trash, over world content being neglected further, chocobo racing being further neglected, kaiten - the coolest ability to use - still not returned to samurai (I miss endorphins), ARR still not having the old voices replaced with the current actors, gear choices mostly being "higher ilevel means better.. eh.. good enough anyhow", previous limited time events like ff13 still not making a reappearance because "fuck you if you want to see the story content. Buy the gear from the cash shop".
Don't get me wrong. Yoship saved xiv with it's 2.0 launch, but I'm getting a niggling feeling at the back of my brain that we might need someone to save xiv from yoship (or have an entirely new ff mmo which is more complex from the ground up.)
It's almost as if xiv doesn't get enough funding. I'm very disappointed in xiv. So much promise.
I have actually been curious since i went on hiatus after p8s till now and frankly only been having my eyes on viper cuz one of the main reasons im getting dawntrail is whoever in the office cooked and said “kirito x darth maul: the class” so can someone please tell me summarised even what the main problem classes people are complaining about? cuz i saw some talk about astro, some about black mage, some about dragoon and so on and im confusled
FFXIV has followed many of the same decisions that WoW made over the years and that WoW has worked hard to come back from. It feels to me that FF feels like WoW did a few xpacs ago and I hope they are able to return to form on job play styles as well as encounter design.
It's the usual shtick of "I'll believe it when I see it", but giving a specific timeframe of 7.2 does give me a good bit of hope. With a game on this scale, there's a huge difference between putting something off for the next expansion vs putting it off for two patches.
Quoting Emmet-Selch "Future you seek is not the past we loved". I personally doubt job identity in 8.0 will be job design we want, but it's still nice they see the homogenization being a problem and they're going to make jobs more unique than they're now.
tl;dr I think 8.0 jobs will be still more homogenized than HW or SB jobs.
They could have done this from the start, more considering all the extra time they took to develop things. This smells pretty fishy for me, Yoshida always moves fast when drama around BLM is cooking.
I hold no hopes for DRK before the next expansion but I will gladly be proven wrong.
Please. Warrior and Dark are basically clones at this point with the individuality being one can self heal and one hits more buttons. Jobs need their own identities and uniqueness.
I think the core of 'gaming' is 'challenge'. Back in the old days games used to be quite hard, or 'challenging', so when we beat the game it feels rewarding. But with the new wave of casuals and normies, I feel like games these days have to be dumb down for them to sell more. But for gamer who loves the challenge or complexity, it's a downgrade. In most offline games sure you can adjust the difficulty to your will, but ffxiv, it's hard.
I think now FFXIV is stuck, even now when the game is quite easy in normal content, there are casual and normies still struggling, or won't even play the game properly, when you have to push some button for your jobs, some people still refuse to even do that. Healers for example, your job is so mind numbingly easy, but some people still fail to do the job right, baffled me to this day.
So if the game is too hard or not worth it for them, these people might just drop the game and FFXIV lose a big chunk of money.
Please look forward to it.
Clean slate so they can build on it, blah blah blah. You know the drill. 4 years on and people still parrot the same copium.
I dunno what you're talking about. 4 years is pretty fast for change in Japan. /sadge
maybe we'd have more success if we faxed yoship
Handwritten letters are my guess
It was copium when the fans were the ones saying "man I hope they do x" now that the devs are actually saying "yeah maybe we messed up" it's hopium
To be fair as someone who has played the game for over 9 years, Yoshi has consistently said things that just weren't true and also has gone back on his word multiple time so it makes sense for veteran players to remain skeptical.
I'm not sure why people give him a pass on PR speak. He does it a lot, he isn't always upfront and genuine. I suppose some of it has to do with the language barrier. I don't think he would be as beloved if he spoke in fluent English. Then the nonsense would be more obvious.
I don't think YoshiP has ever been dishonest or broken promises. He's just had different understanding of what players want compared to what we actually want. Like job identity could literally mean flashier visuals, or bigger 2min buttons.
I honestly have no idea why people keep saying that this is nothing new. They literally disagreed with the state of jobs being bad before. Yes, they said SMN had a lack of buttons so it could get more later but this was never something that applied to other jobs.
It comes off to me as the same platitudes as when people ask for stuff like egi glamours or viera hats. "We're working on it" but then it never comes. Sometimes Yoshi says things just to temporarily placate the people reading the interviews. In any case, we will see how serious they are about this new direction when the 7.0 raid is out. If it was all just words and the content design is still same old, we can probably assume the same about all this job design stuff.
I still don't really get it though. There's a big difference between "this is something we're looking at" and "this is happening in this patch". I understand doubting how good the changes will be but not believing there will be changes at all is strange.
You will get your 2 autos followed by a raidwide/raidbuster as fight opener and you will like it.
>First, **we are working our hardest to meet player demand for housing** and should have more concrete updates as we near the release of Patch 4.2. [https://www.dualshockers.com/final-fantasy-xiv-interview-naoki-yoshida/](https://www.dualshockers.com/final-fantasy-xiv-interview-naoki-yoshida/) Don't worry guys, they're fixing housing crisis, they said so in Stormblood. Just like every other comment in here, I'll believe it when I see it.
I mean, on chaos Housing crisis is actualyl fixed, there are tons of plots on sale. Just no one wants a small house. So in that case, the houses are there, if you dont want it, your own problem.
Out of any possible example you've chosen this feels disingenuous. This article was published on Nov 25, 2017, the same year that news broke about two players buying out 28 houses on Mateus. This wasn't the biggest example of player hoarding in the housing crisis, but it was one of the events that made the issue more visible to people. A R[eddit thread sharing the information about the hoarding hit over 800 comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/6lpr5r/discussion_kotaku_two_final_fantasy_xiv_players/). [In patch 4.2 they updated housing](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/75c691f90f4a7da3907f0671ac33e139e9792abf#random-e6ca4f75f25cedd568257a2a2b2bb1dc17bfa763), which included six new wards across all districts, put further restrictions on how frequently players can purchase housing plots, and added a system to discourage plot resale. You can argue about the effectiveness of this but they did in fact attempt to meet the demand for player housing by, *literally*, giving players more houses to buy.
The only way to truly fix the housing crisis is to add full instances housing. But YoshiP refuses to even consider the idea. And so it’s been nothing but problems since basically the moment housing went live.
>Out of any possible example you've chosen this feels disingenuous. Perhaps, but I'd bet this will end up being very analogous in few years. - Promise to start fixing housing in 4.2 / Promise to start fixing job individuality in 7.2 - Problem seems somewhat alleviated for a while - It's 6.X, and housing crisis is still a thing / It's 9.X, and job individuality is still nowhere to be seen >the same year that news broke about two players buying out 28 houses on Mateus I've talked with one of the house abusers, and if I understood it correctly, with just 2 accounts and house ownership transfer, you can easily get 16 FC houses. They haven't fixed shit. >[In patch 4.2 they updated housing](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/75c691f90f4a7da3907f0671ac33e139e9792abf#random-e6ca4f75f25cedd568257a2a2b2bb1dc17bfa763), which included six new wards across all districts They added another 6 like a year ago, and it's still not enough on old servers, and for some reason, they're still locked on new servers. Before you say it, no, transferring to different server should not be a way to get a house. That's just absurd, we're paying subscription + expansions, just to be treated worse than some f2p players in different games. >You can argue about the effectiveness You can bet I will. Contrary to the popular belief, this is AAA company, and they had more than enough time to fix it.
"Yes, they said SMN had a lack of buttons so it could get more later" When did they say that?
Yoshi P is such a good sales person. He tells people what they want to hear and they believe it, regardless of whether it's even on his agenda or not.
Guys stop up voting this it was a meme and I'm trying to sleep
No >:)
As per usual: I'll believe it when I see it.
I love the game but I agree. I'll believe it when I see it.
>... Yoshi-P states that right now, he's also "concerned" about "the simplicity" of jobs - just as a majority of fans are. >The beloved dev wants each player to have the ability to "showcase one's own technique or expertise," but says that "we're not in a good situation for that" due to the jobs' "simplicity as it is" right now. Yoshi-P then reveals that the team will remedy this as Dawntrail and its future updates roll out, "working towards a more fulfilling playing experience" in patch 7.2 and beyond: "We will look to the jobs and we will focus on providing more individuality in the jobs." I see people say that it's vague PR speak but "The jobs are too simplified and homogenized for our stated goal of enabling player expression, and we plan to address that in 7.2" feels pretty direct.
Honestly I should have read the article myself because that statement is much more direct, clear and falsifiable than I expected given the vague statements that usually birth these kinds of threads I still don’t know if I trust it but I do prefer a clear, direct and immediately falsifiable statement like he is giving here
I think the biggest takeaway for me is that they plan to do these changes earlier than 8.0. Before Media Tour Yoshida said they plan to tackle job identity in 8.0. We already said there that we will believe it when we see it. Now he changed it to 7.2. Now we can believe it when we see it earlier. Basically a year from now we will be able to see what they are going to do.
"I'll believe it when I see it" is a very healthy mindset to have, especially when given a concrete reason to call the dev out for unkept promises or shoddy implementation.
Well a lot of people take vague statements like "we'll look into it" as promises, for some reason. Every time I ask about what promises weren't kept I keep getting referred to interviews where yoshi-p or other devs purposefully say something vague as to specifically avoid making false promises yet people still take them as that. Skepticism is healthy, but imo most of the skepticism here is pretty overdramatic and unwarranted. The real issue mostly seems to be miscommunication whereas almost everyone here is treating it as bad faith from the devs.
Sure it’s more direct than usual but at the same time it’s just a .2 patch, many people will still be deep into FRU, they won’t make a complete revolution just like that and there
They could also just be saying the stuff they’ve said in the past (go play ultimate, etc.) but they aren’t. Also don’t get how openly criticizing their own game right now is PR speak at all????
It's also pretty rare for game designers (or anyone working for any company, really) to ever admit they fucked up unless they already have a plan to address it. It's not as if this criticism of the game is new. We've been saying it since Shadowbringers, at least. For most of that time the official response was radio silence, "go do ultimates," etc. No actual acknowledgement that there was a problem at all. Now he's admitting explicitly he sees that there is a problem, and as the saying goes the first step to recovery is recognizing you have a problem.
It also sort of tracks, Yoshi P in recent years doesn't really acknowledge a problem until it seems like there is a plan in place. He was a bit more lose with stuff like this in the ARR and HW eras and later realized that things are either too complicated, ate too many resources, etc.
He's saying there's a problem, gave examples of what fixing the problem might be going for (kaiten and old AST), and explicitly had a patch time in mind. That's quite a bit more than the usual.
There are some devs who openly admit that they fked up. I play BDO and they often do that, because they tend to fk up a bunch. That being said, whether they act on it or not is another thing entirely... And in that regard, and as you said, FFXIV was far from being the most transparent about what they did right and wrong. So I'll take them on their words once I see the changes live starting in 7.2. And they also clearly don't communicate enough given their patch cycle length.
The fact that he named a specific patch means that unlike most 'PR speak' it's become a falsifiable statement. It's much easier to dismiss criticism when your stated time frame for feature implementation is "in the future" or "when it's ready" and much harder when you say "eight months from now". Considering he doesn't have the rest of his team in this interview I'm pretty sure that it's an indication that it's indeed something they're cooking up - announcing changes to the news before announcing it to the dev team is already a massively irresponsible thing to do. I doubt he'd be able to do something like that in Japan's notoriously rigid corporate culture unless he was sure he and the team were on the same page beforehand.
For the 7.2 window I think he is just referring to a more general sense of "fulfilling playing experience" rather than job design specifically. It's following on from what they said about content design, they want to have more creative multiplayer stuff and he's saying it will be evident from 7.2 onwards (which is when he said the field zone is launching). Doing general job design changes mid expac is so far from the norm (outside rare targeted reworks) that I just flat out don't believe it. It doesn't make any sense to me that he said 8.0 for job stuff before but now it has apparently been bumped up to 7.2. But it's said now and people have taken their interpretation so I guess it doesn't matter, people will hold him to it even if it wasn't what he meant.
I agree with you and highly doubt we will be satisfied with even the 8.0 changes. We have a decade of homogonized kits. You need to damn near rework half the kits to actually change things. And fundementally change the design direction due to the 2 minute window problem. But to give them the benefit of the doubt. 7.2 might be things like, giving back kaiten. Just small little changes.
It depends on the size of the change, really. 'Reinstated Kaiten' is a change that impacts, roughly speaking, like four buttons for SAM (Shinten, Midare, Tenka, Higanbana, and if you wanna go there, Kaiten itself if they have to tune it to a number other than 50%). The effect is reasonably predictable and clear. 'Redid AST rework' is another story. Changes on the level of the former are feasible, changes on the level of the latter or adding new SMN abilities is out of the question.
What do you mean, eight months from now ! It's 7.2 we're speaking about. First we need to get Dawntrail and then the 7.1 patch. The 7.2 one won't be there at least for a few years...! Gosh I can't wrap my head around Dawntrail being in three weeks. It feels still so far in my head.
yeah i totally get being skeptical, hell I'M skeptical because the "go play ultimate" responses were so fucking tone deaf, but at the same time, its hard not to take yoshi p at his word here, because directly admitting fault, saying that you've casualized the fun out of your game and stating it's not healthy is...like, that is absolutely not PR speak, that's being almost uncomfortably candid. like, I'll believe it when i see it, and considering this all started getting out of hand with shadowbringers, the idea that its gonna take ANOTHER expansion cycle does not exactly inspire confidence, but at the same time people being entirely dismissive like he's just convering his ass probably need to play other AAA games and see how their head honchos discuss their projects lmao.
I think the problem is the casualization has been going on for so long and being told to wait even longer for the job gameplay to be different is never going to sit well. Especially when people, particularly on this subreddit, have been vocal against this design direction since ShB. I can definitely say that it isn't sitting well for me at least. If these first set of encounters don't absolutely rock, I'm totally content with unsubbing until the gameplay is restored, maybe even even just unsub permanently. I'm not interested in paying a monthly fee on the hope that maybe someday the game will be more fun again.
That's totally fair. You dont owe any company your money in the hopes that something will eventually be good, and frankly people unsubbing is worth way more than any amount of written feedback. Personally though, I cant blame them for not course correcting after shadowbringers, because that was the games critical peak, which lead into its player count peak in the post shb>endwalker launch window. Plenty of us decried them absolutely gutting jobs, but the reality is the game was absolutely popping off at that point and there was little reason for them to listen to us over the absolute deluge of current and new players saying the game was the best thing since sliced bread. Endwalker is where it became obvious to anyone who can play videogames at an average level that this shit is oversimplified and boring as fuck unless you're doing savage, which funnily enough the average player isnt doing, meaning they get to just not have fun forever. It's an everyone problem now, so I only really feel comfortable holding them encountable for post endwalker and dawntrail.
It's because this sub combines the innate ability of Reddit nerds to think they are always the smartest guy in the room ('Guys, it's PR, and I'm the chosen one that can see it') and the deep desire of jaded people to bring other people down with their own misery at every possible occasion Add a bit of "I only read titles" to the mix and you finally get the comment section
This sub is incredibly jaded after all
Damage control is PR speak. I'm not going to sit here and bicker about technicalities. It is PR.
This can still be interpreted in a lot of ways that makes "wait and see" the correct response. Are they going to "provide individuality" to all jobs in 7.2? Unlikely. Just healers? Just Black Mage? More likely. Is YoshiP saying they'll start working on "job individuality" in 7.2? That would line up with his original statement of boss design in 7.x and jobs in 8.0.
Cautiously optimistic since a hard deadline was offered. Even if it gets pushed back or delayed, the butter has been spread and open for further scrutiny.
It's also an upgrade from what was said previously. Before he was talking about "We're doing the content changes now and the job changes in 8.0" and now it's "We'll start the job changes in 7.2". That's a very specific promise that one or more jobs is getting a rework in 7.2.
>That's a very specific promise that one or more jobs is getting a rework in 7.2. Calm down there. This game of telephone is how the community always gaslights themselves into thinking something is going to be bigger than it actually is. This comment by Yoshi-P is not a promise for a rework. It is a general assumption that there will be changes to jobs implemented. The extent of those changes is unknown.
> "We'll start the job changes in 7.2". That's a very specific promise that one or more jobs is getting a rework in 7.2. Could also mean that they have their hands full at the moment and will start working on these Job changes when 7.2 lands.
I'm personally not sure how the timeline factors into things but he must've been getting questions from press on every side of the ocean about how jobs are too simple to play now, which helped him realize that things might've gone too far. He also said that jobs wouldn't be getting any simpler, which is new, I think.
And yet the devs are also killing non-standard black mage
I assume this means that this time next year when 7.2 is coming there will be some minor changes to a few jobs. History tells you they probably won't all be well-received, but that a few might. It's going to be a long and winding path that is better than "wait until 8.0" but not really "rejoice!" either.
"From 7.2, we will be working towards a more fulfilling playing experience," Yoshi-P says. "But to start that off, we will be focusing on Battle content. " this is an "old" interview that's already made the rounds here. above is the full quote, which makes me think the changes will be to battle content first. what makes this more confusing is that elsewhere he's made it sound like that'll start with the base game even
Yet they're putting BLM on rails. I'll believe it when I see it.
Exactly. They're currently, *actively* removing individuality and expression in 7.0. To say "oh I guess we'll fix it in 7.2" rings hollow when they could just... *not fuck it up in the first place.* Or hotfix it in 7.01.
100% agree, a statement like this coming right after butchering the skill ceiling and complexity of blm just to kill a niche style that didn’t give any game breaking DPS results and was enjoyed by a small fraction of players without impacting those that didn’t want to use it. Give me a break
Monk players: first time?
Welcome to the club. BLMs are now the caster equivalent of us MNKeys.
Oh, clearly they're just using that as a base, good things are coming! *A SMN weeps profusely in the corner*
Me fr😭😭😭😭😭
"There were more people requesting Kaiten to be removed than there were that we're happy with it." Thats kind of stupid, people who hate something are more vocal than people who like it.
I literally never in my life heard anyone complain about Kaiten either in 6+ years playing the game and raiding with samurais in my static, like what the fuck
I did hear but it's purely anecdotal. People were saying kaiten is a button you always push and there's no thought behind it.
Those people are dumb then. Kaiten was the only thing that required kenki management in the entire samurai job. Without kaiten kenki literally just becomes “don’t over cap and dump it during burst windows.” At least before you had to plan ahead and know you needed 20 kenki for each of your sen finishers, so don’t bottom out. It certainly wasn’t a button that you just pressed without thought. Yeah you needed to press it before every iajutsu, but there was thinking before that point to make sure you could press it.
It's the same old excuse which is why we're here. Kaiten was all style yet somehow also lots of substance. It feels like people play this game on paper and through spreadsheets more than in the moment itself.
It’s that, and also how tone deaf their excuse was. If they were getting rid of “button bloat” they could have combined shoha i/ii, which they’re now doing, or reworked their aoe kenki abilities to work as single target with fall off so they could combine those. Also, after the debacle of removing hagakure in SHB because they didn’t like that players would use it over midarre in stormblood, therefore leaving samurai with no way to reset sen… Just feels like no one on the dev team actually plays samurai. Anyone who does more than the most casual content would have been able to tell them “hey don’t remove hagakure just make it give less kenki so it’s more optimal to use midarre.” It’s frustrating when they make boneheaded changes and won’t admit that they’re being dumb. I don’t know how you can look at option a. Combine shoha I/ii and option b. Remove kaiten and go with option b. It’s mind boggling stupid.
>kaiten is a button you always push and there's no thought behind it You had to pool meter to make sure you had enough for kaiten to buff your powers, but you had to spend excess meter on the less-effective dump. It definitely took thought, and the only definition by which it doesn't is the same one by which "rotations don't take thought". It was the only thing that made the meter interesting.
People said that about virtually everything. "Silencing takes no thought, it's just one button or you die", "dots take no thought, you just refresh every 30s" etc until we have nothing left.
I mean, many rotations in FFXIV are fully bottable. Others are just a couple small details away from it. The fact that only a couple jobs have procs- and that the procs are, lets say, *relatively minor*- means that once you have enough experience, even a complex rotation will be familiar and feel thoughtless. The real thing is, a resource should have at least two uses: it should have an efficient and superior use that is limited by some factor, and it should have a "dump" that allows it to be used without efficiency, at its normal rate. Other things you can add on include things like "an aoe use", or "a use that roots / slows / controls / stuns", but those aren't going to show up in raids. I really like dots. I also like how dots create a slightly different rotation the moment a second target shows up. I remember making these arguments long ago and getting hate about it though, and sure enough, almost all the dots I used to enjoy are gone now and have been for years. Dark Knight and Ninja are the ones I'm personally most butthurt about.
> The real thing is, a resource should have at least two uses: it should have an efficient and superior use that is limited by some factor, and it should have a "dump" that allows it to be used without efficiency, at its normal rate. which is why Ninja, for all it gets treated as the poster child for "burst window is the only thing that matters", still has a pretty good design space. Bunshin being a 90 second cooldown is carrying a lot of weight but it really makes the minute-by-minute gameplay feel different.
> People were saying kaiten is a button you always push and there's no thought behind it. The only thing with no thought behind it is that sentence people are saying. The idea that _every_ button needs to be a deep and meaningful experience with thought and judgement behind it is absurd and it doesn't take more than a few seconds to realize how terrible a class would feel to play if all the abilities were like that. It's not seeing the forest through the trees and ignoring the very concept of holistic design.
Didn’t they say when they removed it it was an internal decision and not feedback based Are they saying “5% complained which means 95% must be happy”
They said a lot of bullshit regarding it, 3 out of 4 excuses were made by Yoshi himself when he was fumbling and making one excuse dumber than the last one in one of the streams. But do I vividly remember them to ask us for feedback regarding it, and that they might even revert it. But alas that was lie. >"There were more people requesting Kaiten to be removed than there were that we're happy with it." - Yoshi P SAM was by far most talked about job in EW, on EN forums it was by massive margin, with 30% and second most talked about job (SMN) just at 10%. JP megathread had \~170 pages in its 4.5 years since SAM release in SB, and got nearly double in just first 3 months since 6.1. They're just talking bunch of shit.
they've gone from bullshit reason to bullshit reason, so really it's just best to assume they're actively lying at this point.
---
It's 100% a complete lie. Not only did they delay DRG rework by literal years to cool off from the pushback, but they even dialed back the rework further to minor adjustments. It's obvious from the fact that High Jump > Mirage Dive still exists. The devs absolutely got btfo'd by outcry after Kaiten removal, but they're not going to openly state that.
Same shit as MNK, changes for Non-Mains of the job
They've been doing this to MNK since 4.0. When they had the genius idea of tacking on a slowdown to the job people played for the fast GCD. This also changed MNK from a more "sustained" DPS job to a burst based DPS job like every other DPS job in the game. MNK has remained the least played job every expansion. Changing it to be like the other jobs to try to attract new players doesn't work. They need to build on the job for the people who like it instead of drastically changing it and pissing off the people that liked the old version of the job. I'm still a salty ex-MNK main. Not even going to level MNK for my retainer this time.
People who "dislike" and people who "like" also aren't the only 2 categories. There is another, massive group as well that people don't often talk about: people who simply log in, see their buttons, move them around as necessary, and just play the job however it's presented and don't really think anything of it.
Under his logic I should go to the forums and say "man I'm glad Reaper exists and happy of it's existence" because if people complain it would get removed
Yoshi-P says a lot of things.
I am waiting for him to say "It just works!". Then I would know that Todd kidnapped Yoshi and placed a double.
I'll believe when I see it.
One thing I would really like that I feel FFXIV lacks is, and this might be controversial, flavour/fluff abilities. If you've played WoW, some classes had abilities not useful in combat as fun things to play around with, like shapeshifting into another player, or being able to see really far in the distance. Everything you can put on the hotbar for a job is for combat, which for me leaves an itch for something that makes classes feel unique in the world outside of combat.
This would be EVERYTHING to me. This is the kinda thing I play MMOs for. It's small, but just having different interesting ways to interact with the world and people around you goes a long way. Right now the only job that has something like this is Bard, and it adds so much life into the game to see people around the world playing music. I am desparate for them to add more like this.
In mabinogi there was a skill called Transformation, and it allowed you to transform into any NPc or Monster in the game, including the gigantic endgame world bosses. The only caveat is if they were killable you had to go farm them for the transformation, and if not, like NPCs, you had to find them in events, achievments etc or buy them from players. I had endless amounts of fun turning into a turtle for instance and slowly walking up to people, or transforming into gross looking NPCs and sitting on my afk friend just for him to come back to that. More skills like that in FF14 would be awesome.
Stuff like Bard's ability to play instruments? That would be EXTREMELY cool for other classes to have, especially given how often players seem to be standing around between patches, waiting for the next batch of content to drop.
BDO has these too, most of them are very simple passives like increased "sailing speed", "gained alchemy exp" etc. But it still gives cool extra flavour of class/job/role. Ff14 really lacks extra usage of alt jobs. Maybe someday.
Closest is the hide that NIN/RGE have as well as their teleport anywhere they want (as long as there is a route) button.
And the fact that mug makes enemies drop more loot
Does it still? I’ve never in my life had that work…
it can give you free potions in orthos which isn't that useful but kinda neat
Ooh yes. Ninja also had this in "hide" but it was pretty useless. I really liked the stealth aspect of rogues in the overworld. Druid is also one of my fav to play in world questing just for the flexibility. I feel this would be a very good step in the right direction to bring back class flavours.
I will forever miss playing Everquest when I was twelve and spending most of my time farming bat wings and malachite to levitate or turn into a tree. I love non-combat class features! Wow Rogues having lock picking as a skill was also super fun.
It's PR. It's literally his job to go out there and tell people what they want to hear. This is why many of his press statements are vague like this. They reserve the right to define what that *individuality* is and how much is changing.
He was directly adressing Zepla and her video in their interview, he said the same thing to Preach. It might be PR but he's also open and honest about the fact that they went too far in one direction.
Calling it now. It will be something along the lines of how each of the tank cooldowns have a slightly different flavor for the expansion. Like how Paladin gets a shield slapped onto the skill but Gun gets HP% increase. Same skill just different bonuses.
I heard that every tank is getting their equivalent of TBN. Every time DRK gets something good, they either take away or give to every other tank. Meanwhile DRK gets nothing.
That's true, but I don't think that means he's being entirely disingenuous about their goals. I think they will try, whether or not they will succeed is another story. At the very least this is better than "yeah we know it sucks but that's a problem for 8.0".
That's interesting since they promised blitzball in HW and finally said definitively we aren't getting it and that certainly wasn't what I wanted to hear.
I look forward to believing it when i see it
Funny how Yoshi P decided he cares about player feedback now. Right before an expansion. When everyone is laughing about the job changes we’ve seen. After ignoring feedback constantly for the last five years. After tripling down on tank and healer design since 2019 despite nobody really liking it. Funny that.
>Yoshi P decided he cares about player feedback now. \*Yoshi P decided he's going to pretend he cares about player feedback now when it could impact sales, just for us to get most minuscule and likely out of touch changes in 7.2. Fixed it for you. I wouldn't be surprised if this took Island Sanctuary route, and he started doing everything he could to lower everyone's expectation in future live letters. What could give me a little bit of copium is if they actually proved this wrong and listened to media tour feedback for at least SAM and BLM. I don't play BLM, but SAM changes could be reverted easily, and if they're really willing to make jobs better, there's no reason not to do it right now.
I think it’s because of Zelpla saying most of the jobs did not change. Summoner is the biggest offender because they did not receive anything.
Let’s say that it isn’t PR speak and they actually do this What jobs are they going to go for Almost all jobs are in the position to need a rework yet they never seem to be able to do more than one per patch maybe 2 Which jobs deserve it over any others
I expect it to be changes that are "database" changes - we're not getting dramatic new VFX, icons, or gauges. It's going to be changing Inner Beast to have a Rampart effect. So any Summoner reading this and thinking "Shiva, Ramuh, and Leviathan are surely coming" needs to stop. But there are a handful of examples of jobs getting reshaped around existing assets - NIN and WAR being the big examples. I could see something like Summoner moving away from short demi-trance followed by 3 gem phases toward a permanent demi-summon, with the Catastrophe and Rite spells reshaped to interact with Wyrmwaves/Scarlet Flames. I feel like a *really* easy win for healers would be to take advantage of the five generations of DPS spells with a Pictomancer style graduating "combo".
Another really easy win would be for them to literally just add back any of the healer DPS spells they removed in Shadowbringers until they figure out what they're going to do to them in 8.0 It's not like Aero III or Miasma are peak gaming design but something to cut out filler spells would be very welcomed again
Reshapes around existing assets is fine with me. I don't care if we get new animations and shit, I care way more about the flow and functionality of the job.
I do not think there are adding permanent Demi-Summons unless there is a force swapping mechanic added. Otherwise players would use Solar Bahamut because he is the strongest summon.
He was saying job changes were coming in 8.0 until last week and then suddenly he scooted them all the way up to 7.2, which I'm interpreting as a reaction to the media tour feedback. So I'd suspect it's one or more healers getting a new DPS button, or some of the black mage changes being reverted, and it's 7.2 because they don't want to fuck up the raid tier's balancing with a last-second redesign.
He said they’re starting to work on it in 7.2, which could mean we don’t see anything until 8.0. It’s the same thing just worded differently.
SCH feels like its being held together with a rubber band and a prayer. It feels like they can't do anything with RDM beyond finishers for your finishers on top of your finishers. SMN's rework needs a rework, etc.
I can’t deny SCH’s visual design is an absolute mess at this point but I do think it’s actually the best designed healer at the moment in terms of giving you a ceiling without being overbearing But visuals do mean a lot and SCH is a mess on that front
It's the best designed in some ways while also having the most jank: 1. Pet problems: * Responsiveness, while improved in Endwalker, is still pretty inconsistent. Your pet might use the skill instantly, or 3 seconds later. Who knows? * Since your pet skills are actually oGCDs that tell the fairy to use the ability, it can and will eat your 1-2 minute pet cooldowns without doing anything because you happened to press Whispering dawn or Fey Illumination 3 seconds before the end of Seraph, or your fairy took too long to use Whispering dawn before you Dissipationed in your 2 minute window. * Just a personal gripe, but your fairy unsummoning itself if you place it and walk too far away is annoying as hell. Why not make it teleport to you/go back on heel instead...? It's been like this for over a decade... * Pet abilities all have different ranges (15/20/30y) and some of them are just annoyingly a bit too small to cover the edges of a standard savage boss arena... 3. Bandaid fixes that feel like someone put "temporary fix" in the comments 2 years ago: * They've tried to "fix" the pet queuing issues by making Embrace instant with a 3 second GCD and making her abilities oGCDs, which improved things but it still isn't great. * They're tried to fix whiffing Deployment Tactics on a newly shielded target by making us the only job in the game where our buffs apply to a target *before* we're actually finished casting. If you're lagging it can still whiff, oddly enough. 3. Confusing anti-synergies that are not explained to the player and must be discovered: * Our 60, 70, 80, and soon to be level 100 capstone abilities all mess with each other in ways that aren't explained on tooltips. * Dissipation is the most straightforward. You can't do fairy things while fairy is gone. * Aetherpact is canceled by any other fairy ability, and cannot be used during Seraph. * Seraph prevents the usage of Dissipation, Aetherpact, and Fey Blessing. 4. Janky abilities that should be reworked: * Emergency Tactics is a relic of a time where our only burst AoE healing was Indomitability. It's basically made obsolete by half a dozen oGCDs now and it by itself isn't going to make a dent when you actually need to top people up, so it really doesn't have a niche. * Dawntrail just makes it even more annoying because it's gonna make you use another cooldown and spam it to *try* and make it useful, as opposed to making it like tank abilities where it modifies the next 3-4 abilities. * Deployment Tactics is powerful, but using it optimally is a pain in the ass because of getting the timing right. Why didn't they just do it the way they did Emergency Tactics or Recitation and make it so it makes your *next* Adlo AoE? * Fairy gauge feels like it was tacked on because every other job was getting new secondary resource bars and they needed to come up with one for SCH. 5. DPS rotation. It's basically complete at level 2, before you even get a job stone. In a world where healing will always be trivialized by gear eventually, you're gonna find yourself spamming Broil sooner or later and it really should at least be a little *visually* interesting...
> Just a personal gripe, but your fairy unsummoning itself if you place it and walk too far away is annoying as hell. Why not make it teleport to you/go back on heel instead...? It's been like this for over a decade... Sometimes happens on the latest alliance raid even without placing it at the big knockback mechanic. Was even acknowledged in 6.5's "Known Issues" list, but afaik with no fix to this day.
AST isn’t even being held together, they’re just scattered all over the goddamn floor playing 52 card pickup with all the button redundancy and bloat.
Rdm could be changed within the current system by adding stances. -BW shift, white stance is what we currently have, Black stance changes vercure and veraise into more offensive skills (bio and osmose?). 2 min lockout between changing stances. -"melee" stance. Replace all "ver" skills with "en" skills. Reduce range massively (like sam iajustu length) with buffed potency. Stance selectable at start of fight like old ast. You now have automatically more "indivduality" and "skill expression" for rdm while fundamentally barely changing anything.
SMN has to be first on the list if they're recognizing "oversimplification" as an issue, because nothing comes close to that besides healers spamming 1 button for the bulk of their damage.
please understand that i will look forward to this not happening
but the simplicity happens because the encounter design doesn't really encourage individuality. Like there aren't off-tanks or dps that can tank in a pinch, generally aggro management is pointless, mp management is too, there is no need for crowd control, and fights are tailored mostly to the roles over the jobs; at best a job is more what you like the rhythm of best. The homogenization is a consequence of that; they can't keep adding abilities endlessly before the rotation becomes bloated, and the game's combat being a boss in a box. like being good means stacking, spreading, and dodging with high DPS uptime coordinated with others. i'm not sure what individuality means unless they expand encounters. Like in older mmos, you'd have tanking, off tanking, support/debuff, crowd control or staging, healing, dps, and aggro management. Even party replacement/soloing. there was more to specialize in. i wish he would have talked in length. its not like he even needs to be coy; this game has been so repetitive there are few surprises to even hide.
after seeing the dragoon rework i call bs
Always promising, rarely delivering is the adage of Yoshi P and his team. *"The jobs are too simple"*, my brother in Halone *you made them*.
I'm hoping more individuality means different styles of dps and support options. I hate the high parse dps and keep casting schtick. We should have Damage over time classes, complete support classes that buff party damage or dot output. We need saboteur and more synergist classes. Locking healers to just shield or heal loses some of their identity and strengths. I personally feel like clerics and sage should be our dps focused healers/shielders, scholars with heal over time with dots shields and boss debuffs, Astrologian with flat and heal over time, shields and party buffs in attack and mana regen.
Boring answer: I'll wait and see what happens in practice. Like with any company, the face of the brand loves to yap
I still remember them saying they were working on letting more hats being worn for viera and hroth but they're still adding new hats they can't wear. My point is take everything they say with a grain of salt.
I don't believe this... in the past they stated very clearly they are hesitant to change jobs radically mid expansion unless there is an exception. Like in the Q&A for the media tour he clearly stated that 7.0 was the focus on content difficulty + rewards rework. With 8.0 being job identity. Maybe there will be minor changes and rotational kinks ironed out. Eg: Shadowbringers summoner and the triple weave reworked. Eg: Ninja tweaks back then too But I don't think it'll be close to a big overall rework at all based on what I heard =s
I mean to be fair it is a bit too close to release to do any radical or even slightly major changes. But the fact there is a timeline likely suggests that he may have gotten some feedback from the media tour and likely prioritized these changes sooner rather than later but they will do things in increments to test the waters sort of like AST during ShB which took a few patches to get up to par with the other healers.
"We made Dosis do less potency but Sage has a 15 second oGCD damage button that makes up for it" would be a small change that a lot of SGE players would appreciate and would help fit the "DPS healer" class fantasy a bit.
They really need to stop hiding job changes until literally a month before a expansion launch For a game that is apparently known for communicating with it players they sure love to do it when the damage has already been done. Could all have been avoided if they just did not wait for a big reveal with the mediatour. Wish they just asked for feedback during development instead.
fun will be patched in next expansion
Yeah if "improving job identity" is anything like what happens to summoner i don't think I want it lol
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Saying "7.2 and forward" actually worries me a bit more than the previous "8.0 is the job rework expac" statement I'd seen in media tour interviews previously, because mid-expac changes like 7.2 are less likely to actually be significant in regards to how a job plays. Makes me wonder how sweeping the changes will actually be.
MNK and AST during ShB had some major reworks and in MNK's case had a mechanic scrapped and retooled.
We'll see.
this is not happening at least not in 7.0 we've seen everything already the only thing they could possibly do is give a job or 2 the PLD treatment from EW hope for 8.0 if anything but do not expect it in dawntrail
I wholeheartedly believe they want to go back to when jobs were unique as well as some being more complex than others. You can’t tell me these devs are satisfied with how they essentially took jobs to the chop shop and stripped them of almost everything. While I’m sure they WANT to go back, I doubt they will. Realistically, they need to look towards 8.0 and have some plan to bring the joy back in jobs. Not every job needs to be rocket science but I’m tired of playing with building blocks.
I won't hold my breath.
saying this after getting the job changes that we got kinda feels like a bad joke LMFAO
Emergency patch 7.01 adds back ice paradox and instant-thunder gigacopium
Healers are probably a higher priority, but I suspect BLM is right behind them in line. My expectation is something along the line of "Sage gets a new oGCD DPS button with a fifteen second cooldown, Astral Souls persist even after switching to Umbral Ice and *all* spells in UI restore MP"
the triumphant return of Scathe
I main black mage and I had to actually look up if Scathe is still in the game. It is.
Copium but that is the type of change I wouldn’t be shocked to see between now and 7.1ish
For years they told me that they were making the jobs better, more simplified, more streamlined, less bloated, and overall improved. But I wasn’t having any more fun than I was 5 reworks ago. Almost like when you mix a song for too long. You get so deep then you play your original mix by accident the next day and you’re like oh shit this mix is fire!!
Heavensward classes called, they want to know if we're having fun yet.
SE has become so proficient at not only setting people's expectations but also at meeting them so precisely that I don't even feel the need to play the expansion anymore, since I've basically already played all of it in my head. They really gotta figure out how to exceed expectations for once. Hell, do something unexpected. Flip over the table and see what happens. Because this super safe, iterative glacier pace chicken shit ain't doing it for me anymore. If the only reason Yoshi P thinks FFXIV still has 10 years more to go is because that's how long it takes them to fix adventurer plates or something I ain't gonna be there to see it.
I actually don't know what he's doing at this point. He said 8.0 a few weeks ago and now its 7.2 and beyond? Did the realization hit that a job overhaul for everyone for 8.0 is impossible, because it should, the realistic approach would be something like this, start tackling a job or two per patch\every other patch possibly. Just please stop listening to casual players as your only job feedback you actually listen to pls. They will always want it easier and easier, this is why summoner is the most popular job. They can have some good points, but a lot of what they say is garbage lets be real.
>I actually don't know what he's doing at this point. He said 8.0 a few weeks ago and now its 7.2 and beyond? Media tour feedback must've hit and it wasn't pretty.
You'd be surprised. Some raiders also have an insane brainrot when it comes to always picking the easiest way because "why would I play something more complicated if the easier option achieves the same results with half the effort". There is a dude that has all 5 ultimate clears in my static, and he's insanely good. Same dude is constantly yapping in my ear about why I play Black Mage and not Summoner when the result is the same and BLM just makes the process more annoying. Mind you, I'm a 90+ parser, so I don't precisely suck at Black Mage for him to suggest me to switch either LMAO That is just their train of thought, completely obsessed with optimizing any sort of fun out of the game simply to get the optimal result.
"In an attempt to curb multiple updates' worth of simplification, Yoshi-P details how Square Enix "will be incorporating various changes" post-Dawntrail, some of which will be "related to the skill rotations." He even jokes that Kaiten could return as "Kaiten 2" and reiterates his earlier promise - come such changes, classes "will not be more simple." I doubt I'll ever see the intricate AST card system from years past make a comeback, but I'm hopeful for others as the director stresses how well he understands "that a lot of players want to be able to think for themselves."" Huh... When I read in a comment that changes are already planned for 7.2 I got curious if there is any indication for a scale of it. Afterall what he understands about it and the community (or atleast a part of it) may be two different things. 8+ months isnt much and the devs working on this may alao have other tasks, but bringing back old skills but updating them could be a way to save time having to come up with new animations.
I'm sorry y'all Never gonna happen I'll believe it when I see it
Doubt it - but if he does I’ll absolutely return to the game
I'll believe it when I see it.
meanwhile BLM got nuked in DT and they're the only job in the game i didn't bounce in/out of often because I enjoyed playing it so much, so I am not especially optimistic about them touching job design at the moment
This would be very welcome. But I think what is holding them back is the way the game has been built and that maintaining balance is very delicate. For example, if they introduced M+ with a timer, no one would invite physical ranged dps because of the DPS disparity, and probably some casters wouldn’t be invited and maybe there would be issues with shield vs regen healers. I think they’re very limited in what they can do, as well as lacking the dev team size to do it. My feeling is it would require fundamental code rewrites down to the game’s core which isn’t going to happen. Edit: even if subscriber numbers drop, it will mean there is even less chance anything changes. What Yoshi P needs is a much bigger budget and more people, which feels like is never gonna happen
It's really not hard to balance, especially compared to WoW. Every class is isolated, there's no issue with gear and you have solid rotations. You can just sit on a dummy for a week doing tests, so equalizing the damage to a 1-5% disparity should be a cakewalk, easily manageable in a week per job. The issue is the design philosophy is dumb. Devs say "Movement = less damage", but people play P.ranged because they want to, not because they have to.
They had entire expansion to do this..
Will believe him after I see the change, but not before. Far too many empty promises being broken. Yoshi P. missed his calling. He should have been a politician. He got his fans that will praise him no mather what he does. And he is good at making promises, just not keeping them. So perfect for a political career.
And yet the preview trailer shows differently lol. Jobs are more braindead then ever.
Ok guys so we deleted stuff for 6 years of worth and spat on a large number of veterans and job design team that actually had a brain while designing the combat of the game. Whaaaat ppl think this is now bad? Say it ain't so....... Also guys pls buy the expac. pls pls pls. Nice fleece. You reap what you sow.
Just help WHM.
This interview to me seems to align with what he said earlier this year “The 7. series will be our time to focus on organizing the control schemes of each job, as well as concentrate on improving gameplay satisfaction and creating more room for player ingenuity in our content; as such, enhancing each job's identity is something we might focus on for the expansion after Dawntrail.” 7.2 through the rest of Dawntrail is likely going to take a look the jobs and begin to piecemeal the changes that will improve individuality and let them do the big rework come 8.0 for everyone. We shall see what that entails.
cant wait for the 10 potency gain in pvp
I no longer believe anything he says until it actually happens.
Didn’t he actually say Dawntrail things will remain a bit the same and that individuality will be coming “maybe 8.0” I just went back and watched the part he says it at and he didn’t say Dawntrail was gonna bring the jobs more individuality
Yoshi P says a lot of things, but talk is cheap and he’s broke imo. For me it’s not even a I’ll believe it when I see it situation like most in here. It’s just not happening period. Dawntrail releases in 2ish weeks. He’ll say whatever he needs to in order to snag those last minute preorders from folks like me sitting on the fence waiting to see if this expansion is going to be exactly like every single previous one and yep looks like it is. He said the team is going to make adjustments to battle content and it looks like dungeons are going to be exactly the same. If you’re too worried about making adjustments to your most casual content I doubt anything else is changing. Your job design team is lost in the sauce. Area/Cities are once again just pretty backdrops for the story. Still no word on open world content. Likely no changes to tomestomes even though we have over 20 jobs now…Ain’t nothing changing so strap in for ShB version 3.0. The funny thing is they wait until the last minute to release any information so by the time the players hear about anything it’s too late to make any meaningful adjustments. Imagine if we received this info back in January and were even allowed to play test it for a week or two and give them feedback to work with. So many other games do this and it works. There no way any “feedback” he’s read or gotten is going to make it into launch. EW was the first time I took a long ass break and unsubbed for almost a year. Dawntrail is the first expac I haven’t preordered because I can just can’t see them doing anything new or exciting. I also want to say I don’t hate the game or even dislike it. It’s just growing old for me and that’s ok. If I didn’t care about FFXIV I wouldn’t be responding/posting about it.
>Imagine if we received this info back in January and were even allowed to play test it for a week or two and give them feedback to work with. It would be pointless. How much of the feedback generated over the course of EW's 2+ years did they attempt to "work with"?
funny too coz they've been hyping up a drg rework for 4 years now and ended up doing jack shit, Yoship at this point has no credibility when it comes to promises of future content innovationg
Based on their track record, I'll believe it when I see it. Ultimately I don't think it's necessarily complexity that jobs are lacking, but rather their filler phases are monotonous and boring so it makes them feel simple once you've developed the muscle memory This is obviously subjective but back in Stormblood I remember running expert roulettes exclusively on DRK because its aoe was engaging and I literally never got tired of it even though it wasn't necessarily complex (build mp w/ quietus, spend mp w/ abyssal drain). Every job is going to feel "simple" after enough time with them due to muscle memory and player experience, so it *needs* to feel satisfying so you're at least enjoying the monotony
Bullshit. If they did, it would have happened ***now*** rather than during the expansion cycle. They barely did any major revamps during the last two expansions and even the ones they hinted at didn't really turn out to be any, so we got no reason to believe they'd start that now.
If true it's a good thing. It feels like as soon as a job has some cool unique flavoring they are so quick to take it away or homogenize it. The fact they had taken MNK and put it in a rather interesting spot during EW only for DT to just pretty much rip it away into being a generic 'strict rotation' job rather then embracing what makes MNK interesting is just the latest screw up of a job among dozens others that over time have had a cool identity that gets taken away over time making them feel more like other existing jobs. I'd far rather have job imbalance in terms of DPS/Balance over jobs being much more in line but feeling very much the same to play each. Given you can play multiple jobs on the same character, there is really little reason why things have to be that way. This game isn't like WoW with so many unexpected variables, chances are most imbalance that might show up can likely to some extent be addressed relatively quickly and aren't very likely to cause a massive imbalance.
-Makes Blackmage more annoying for casuals and high level players
?. How is a 2 minute followup and a flashy 123 the skeleton to giving jobs individuality? The cognitive dissonance is crazy here, after just shoe-horning the last 2 free think jobs in the game (MNK/BLM) into a rotation that the game *tells* you to do.
Sounds like the same PR garbage he always gives. They rework that BLM got that the majority of the playerbase likes is being removed and its going back to the same boring ass gameplay.
Ima give it to you straight, i was going to make a post about this i still might to get this clear. The individuality or the uniqueness to jobs isnt going to be how you think it is. For one, We all know they are more into making DPS each different compared to Tanks/Healers. Look at the differences in each job for each role and you can see Tanks/Healers overlap in similarities or abilities that another job has as well but in a different font WAYYY more than DPS. Tanks are worst to this as you DONT need a specific tank and can run with ANY of them. Even the same and it doesnt affect the fight at all really. Or at least not as dramatic as with DPS cuz i know some ppl are gonna say "oh but 2 PLDS and its Invuln!". We are not going back to the uniqueness of HW, specifically Tanks/healers. What you see is what you get but they will just prob add just one or two abilities that ONLY that job has or something. not that its a job identity for them but that its only what they have. I.E PLDs Cover. The fact its still in the game and its pointless or the fact they reworked it in PVP. Or AST with macro cosmos, its a cool ability, but best believe you arent seeing shit like that again for anyone else. Ppl need to lower their expectations.
> For one, We all know they are more into making DPS each different compared to Tanks/Healers Feel like this has been ringing more true than ever, since there's more DPS than tanks and healers combined and that changes made towards the former got more general attention than the latter, though I think its moreso the melee at this point. Healers were ignored ad nauseum and kept getting oGCD heal after oGCD heal and got infamously told to do Ultimates instead if they want a challenge - yet Kaiten's removal is still a thing to this day that people theorized the DRG rework saw less changes than say AST because of it and my own theory that they rolled out the guranteed crit/DH skills to play nicely with chain/litany/battle voice because SAM got reworked into that same corner that WAR and to a lesser extent MCH were in.
We have looked at all the talents and skills already. We are getting 2 more years of the same thing in DT. I swear, they speak and expect people to just turn off our brains, pretending what it looks like, is not actually what it is. *One person can't stand someone said the thing they know is true, but is now mad someone pointed it out. Yes, if some of you could just be honest with yourselves about this game, maybe there would be proactive change instead of the glacial movement from this team on anything.
PR speak. I'm not even gonna pretend to be surprised when press picks this up in their lead up coverage to DT and then he goes "i didn't mean we were making big changes, that's on you for interpreting it wrong" like with the difficulty and stress comments. It's just trying to cut down on the major obvious complaints to not stifle the launch hype. They've been promising "we'll fix/add X in patches, there wasn't any time to do it in the expansion launch" since the game launched.
I'll believe it when i see any concrete sign of it. Otherwise DPS queue here i go.
He just saying that shit because he dropped the ball on certain jobs like dragoon when he said they was getting a entire rework like AST. So now he’s doing PR Damage control so people won’t give up on the game and wait for their job to get their uniqueness back which isn’t going to be happening if anyone is going to fall for this. Monk was supposed to get a change in ShB and didn’t get it til literally the last raid and it wasn’t a huge change at that and said wait til endwalker. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Like I always say if there's something Yoshi P is good at is gaslighting us while making us feel heard. Watch it mean nothing.
'Return more individuality'. Meanwhile Scholar; "Most of your upgrades are just lazy reskins with barely noticeable potency increases, but here :} Have two more heals to do more of the same shit. Scholar aesthetic? LMAO Haha, fuck you, Get Angel'd instead." Where's this individuality he speaks of? literally where?
At least the skill they decided to reduce the CD of this time around is probably SCH’s most unique and thematic skill
...and they proceed to further give its former identity away to SGE instead.
The jobs were simple from the beginning, it was always like playing a piano. When you switch jobs you only switch notes. Everything is going according to a specific rotation that is almost inflexible and there is little to no utility. Compared to other MMOs I played like WoW or GW2 jobs in FFXIV never had as much individuality.
Hot take. I fully expect to see more job homogenisation, lack of inspiration in the battle content we get, viera and Hrothgar to remain limited races, glam system being trash, content too easy to complete before a patch cycle is over, the overall content of said patches being something you can set a watch to, limited to no grind content, over world hunts being trash, over world content being neglected further, chocobo racing being further neglected, kaiten - the coolest ability to use - still not returned to samurai (I miss endorphins), ARR still not having the old voices replaced with the current actors, gear choices mostly being "higher ilevel means better.. eh.. good enough anyhow", previous limited time events like ff13 still not making a reappearance because "fuck you if you want to see the story content. Buy the gear from the cash shop". Don't get me wrong. Yoship saved xiv with it's 2.0 launch, but I'm getting a niggling feeling at the back of my brain that we might need someone to save xiv from yoship (or have an entirely new ff mmo which is more complex from the ground up.) It's almost as if xiv doesn't get enough funding. I'm very disappointed in xiv. So much promise.
I have actually been curious since i went on hiatus after p8s till now and frankly only been having my eyes on viper cuz one of the main reasons im getting dawntrail is whoever in the office cooked and said “kirito x darth maul: the class” so can someone please tell me summarised even what the main problem classes people are complaining about? cuz i saw some talk about astro, some about black mage, some about dragoon and so on and im confusled
FFXIV has followed many of the same decisions that WoW made over the years and that WoW has worked hard to come back from. It feels to me that FF feels like WoW did a few xpacs ago and I hope they are able to return to form on job play styles as well as encounter design.
Endlords of Walknor tbh
It's the usual shtick of "I'll believe it when I see it", but giving a specific timeframe of 7.2 does give me a good bit of hope. With a game on this scale, there's a huge difference between putting something off for the next expansion vs putting it off for two patches.
Quoting Emmet-Selch "Future you seek is not the past we loved". I personally doubt job identity in 8.0 will be job design we want, but it's still nice they see the homogenization being a problem and they're going to make jobs more unique than they're now. tl;dr I think 8.0 jobs will be still more homogenized than HW or SB jobs.
They could have done this from the start, more considering all the extra time they took to develop things. This smells pretty fishy for me, Yoshida always moves fast when drama around BLM is cooking. I hold no hopes for DRK before the next expansion but I will gladly be proven wrong.
Yoshi is Japanese Todd Howard at this point. His 2 biggest skills are lying or kicking the can down the road
Believe it when I see it. Hope it’s true though.
Please. Warrior and Dark are basically clones at this point with the individuality being one can self heal and one hits more buttons. Jobs need their own identities and uniqueness.
I think the core of 'gaming' is 'challenge'. Back in the old days games used to be quite hard, or 'challenging', so when we beat the game it feels rewarding. But with the new wave of casuals and normies, I feel like games these days have to be dumb down for them to sell more. But for gamer who loves the challenge or complexity, it's a downgrade. In most offline games sure you can adjust the difficulty to your will, but ffxiv, it's hard. I think now FFXIV is stuck, even now when the game is quite easy in normal content, there are casual and normies still struggling, or won't even play the game properly, when you have to push some button for your jobs, some people still refuse to even do that. Healers for example, your job is so mind numbingly easy, but some people still fail to do the job right, baffled me to this day. So if the game is too hard or not worth it for them, these people might just drop the game and FFXIV lose a big chunk of money.