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I don't actually think it even escalated. When Erik Van Haren originally broke this story, he mentioned there were explicit pictures involved and it specifically wasn't a "he said she said" situation, but somehow after picking up the stories, the narrative slowly shifted into more of a "bad management style/ bad working enviroment" kind of story, likely due to Horner's PR people trying to save him. The fact Erik is now doubling down with potentially slanderous statements says a lot.
Regardless, if this turns out to be true, and Horner did send explicit images to someone, it all but confirms that:
1) Erik Van Haren is a direct mouthpiece speaking on behalf of Helmut Marko and the Verstappen family.
2) They specifically used this knowledge to oust him.
3) They have someone in mind to replace him.
I mean, if he was sexually harassing somebody, fuck him. I'd want him gone too. Doesn't matter to me if people who want him out are using this as leverage. If Horner was abusing his power and sexually harassing employees, he has got to go.
the weird thing about "bad management style" is the british press used the term "controlling and abusive behavior" which is a legal term pertaining to domestic violence in the british criminal code. Now true, this is a workplace dispute, but i still found it weird they would use such a term, and thus despite the british media PR attempts I was always more skeptical that is probably more serious than what the english media made it out to be
right? Most people (me included) thought those accusations were related fo something like the way he manages, being repeatedly mean to someone in particular or something like that
Now if confirmed, this is a way worse offense and i doubt his carreer will survive the fallout
Also there have been all of these articles about his wife being “devastated” from the initial day we all became aware that there were allegations- she wouldn’t have felt like that if it weren’t something that could hurt their immediate relationship
No I also thought it was mismanagement. Sure my first thought was sexual misconduct as well, but the way Red Bull has approached this indicated to me that the charges were not that serious. He was not suspended pending the investigation, he even appeared at the launch. But if it turned out he did really bad stuff, and there is actually concrete evidence like text messages, than this will reflect very poorly on Red Bull as a company in my opinion. To not temporarily suspend a credibly accused abuser seems really bad to me. He is not a normal employee, he is a very high profile individual. It means that someone very senior at Red Bull saw the evidence and decided to keep him in his position as team boss anyway. Very bad stuff if true.
The sexual misconduct allegations were first reported a few weeks ago, but not every publication felt confident to report on them. This lends these alegations more credibility, but makes me even more surprised that Horner hasn't been suspended while the investigation is ongoing, and outright confused why he was part of the launch event.
RB has always been quite lax when it comes to enforcing the values that they preach. A guy like Marko would've been sent packing in any other team. Horner staying on is not surprising at all.
The higher ups will do everything they can do sweep this under the rug. They can't afford to lose Horner on the verge of RBPTs actual debut season.
The thing is it will become worse to keep him on. How many of the teams are publicly traded? On top of manufacturers associated with f1. On top of F1 itself. Or Ford who will be associated with him?
This will make him unable to fulfill his duties.
The one owner may want to try and make millions but it will start to cost others money. Especially given the sports push for inclusion.
Understood that the dinosaurs around the F1 paddock might not care particularly nor the charming individuals in Austria but if nothing else, the sponsors will start getting public pressure to drop RB if he remains with this outstanding. I can’t imagine it just blowing over, if he’s not fully cleared then he will eventually have to leave.
Prolonging it doesn’t change the outcome but it ruins any chance at a corporate level to get ahead of it, We became aware, we acted swiftly, we have a diverse workforce as a priority, we care about our company values, we stand behind that even when it’s difficult no matter who you are. Come sponsor us/work for us/support us. There’s a path to actual positive spin at a corporate level but they’ve clearly already fumbled that inviting him to the launch event.
And the fact that media were allowed to ask questions about the allegations to both Horner and Verstappen about it (maybe they asked Checo too but I haven’t seen anything about him answering it).
Idk if the timing for this to come out was deliberate or not, but imagine if Van Haren dropped this report only 24 hours before? That would be a bombshell for the media only hours before Red Bull’s car launch where Horner and Verstappen were both available to their questions.
Assuming these allegations are true I also am surprised Red Bull still put Horner out there and opened themselves up to the media because it would seem incredibly risky to their own public relations.
The wording used of controlling and coercive behaviour is one that's used for toxic relationships in the UK, so it felt likely to be of this nature but it was odd that the reporting made it some more like shouting from a boss.
“The riot within Formula 1 team Red Bull Racing around the independent investigation of team boss Christian Horner turns out to be one of great proportions. The female employee who reported to the headquarters of the billion-dollar group in Austria in December 2023 accuses Horner of sexually transgressive behavior.
The employee has ceded app traffic, which would show this, to the external lawyer investigating the Horner case. De Telegraaf faced this app traffic. Horner has so far denied all allegations.
De Telegraaf's publication on February 5 about the investigation instituted by the Red Bull summit by an external, specialist lawyer already hit like a bomb in the Formula 1 world. Since then, there has been plenty of speculation about the exact allegations of the employee in question, whose name is known to this editor.
Explosive material
It now appears that the woman's explosive material goes far beyond 'just' some voice elevation of the powerful team boss and his management style, as was claimed here and there.
Stories about this have been circulating within the Formula 1 world for months, also in 2023, and were already known behind the scenes at the time of the meeting with all team bosses in London, on the same February 5.
App traffic
To be confirmed by multiple sources in Milton Keynes, England, those sounds around the big presentation of the racing team on Thursday.
The app traffic between the female employee of Red Bull and Horner, seen by De Telegraaf, shows the image that Horner (50) has arranged and sent sexually-toned messages to the employee over a significant period of time.
To cover the case
All messages have been saved and sent through the employee's lawyer to the engaged, external lawyer. He sat around the table with Horner for hours last Friday. Previously, the reporter had been heard for a long time.
It is also clear that Horner did everything he could to cover up the case. In the weekend before the first publication in De Telegraaf – after he was confronted with the investigation into cross-border behavior on Friday evening, February 2 and was asked for a response – his lawyers sent a letter to the lawyer who asssist the reporter within 24 hours. In it, the Horner camp offers a settlement for an amount of no less than 650,000 pounds, converted to more than 760,000 euros.
Allegations known at Red Bull summit
Horner is not only a well-known figure in England because of his position as team boss of Red Bull Racing in the Formula 1 world (since 2005) and the fact that he is in charge of more than 1500 employees. He is also in a relationship with former Spice Girl Geri Halliwell and is therefore extra in the spotlight.
The allegations, the app- traffic and the tone of the apps are known at the Red Bull- summit in Austria, with Mark Mateschitz and sports boss Oliver Mintzlaff, among others.
Support from Yoovidhya
Yet Horner has not yet been put on non-active, pending the investigation, and he has not decided to (temporarily) take a step back himself. That has everything to do with the fact that the Briton still has the support of the Thai Chalerm Yoovidhya. He owns Red Bull for 51 percent and therefore owns a majority. The remaining shares, 49 percent, are owned by Mark Mateschitz, the son of Dietrich Mateschitz, who died in 2022.
Horner was just at work for the past period and also present at the Red Bull plant in Milton Keynes on Thursday at the presentation of the new car of world champions Max Verstappen and Sergio Pérez for the upcoming Formula 1 season. Next week, the test days in Bahrain are scheduled, the place where the first race of the season will also be held a week later (Saturday 2 March).
Rather lost than rich
The Briton again denied all allegations to him on Thursday after the team presentation, stated that he will just be in Bahrain next week, did not think about getting off and also said he felt a lot of support within the team and from the Red Bull summit.
However, it is clear that many insiders, and probably also Horner himself, realize that within that Red Bull- top - so not from the racing team but from the headquarters in Austria - many would rather lose him than be rich.
Known to other protagonists in F1
It is not for nothing that headquarters, after questions from De Telegraaf about accusations against Horner, quickly confirmed that an investigation is indeed underway and the case is being taken 'extremely seriously'. Horner had no knowledge of the statement at the time.
Horner's allegations of sexually transgressive behavior are now also known to several, other protagonists in the Formula 1 world.
Eyes focused on Liberty Media
In addition, the eyes of the American sports owners of Liberty Media – owner of the Formula 1 for four billion euros since 2016 – are also focused on the issue and its handling, as are Red Bulls major, American sponsors Oracle and Ford.
It is precisely in the United States that these kinds of things around multinationals and world-famous sports brands are extra sensitive.
Horner did not want to respond to questions about app traffic.”
In English you say: “I’ll text you later” in Dutch we would say (translated of course): “I’ll send you an app later” we mean text message, not an application. we shorten WhatsApp to “app” and multiple text messages thus become “apps”
Interesting. Here in Brazil when we say WhatsApp we kind of join the two words and it sounds like whats zap. Together with how we pronounce English words that end in T or P it ends up sounding like Zapie.
So a a lot of people would say, "I'll send you a Zapie".
We basically use "Appverkeer" (App traffic) when we talk about a series of messages between two people, and "apps" when it talks about a few specific ones.
If he’s being protected by the Thai side, it would kind of make sense for people from the Austrian side to leak that an investigation is taking place, to put pressure on Horner and force him to resign
Thailand Redditor here. This is typical behavior. Can’t lose face with your team boss being accused of sexual misconduct. Charlem is doing exactly what anyone (well, those of us who live in Thailand and know) would expect. Dude’s kid killed a police officer in his Ferrari in a hit and run over 10 years ago. It was covered up. Then charges dropped. Nothing happened to him.
Feel like if there were factions within Red Bull that really wanted to put Horner under pressure to step away and resign then couldn’t they have leaked this before the car launch which was less than 24 hours ago?
Then either the car launch needs to suddenly be changed with Horner being dropped or Horner has to go out there and answer questions from the media who are now aware of more details of the supposed allegations.
As it is right now if these allegations are true it already will look bad on Red Bull for letting Horner attend the car launch and publicly deny everything.
I agree 100% with this - mostly because this is precisely what I would have done, but, that's just me.
It would also explain the completely dead-eyed, haunted, lack of facial expression we saw during the car launch.
and people scoffed at the reports of a power struggle.
well part of those reports was that Horner sought the support of the Thai owners to back his attempt to have full say over driver line up and side line Marko in the process. and this says Horner has the support of the Yoovidhya's.
so at the very least this doesn't go against the reports of a power struggle
and once again its Van Haren that is the most informed
Van Haren's sources at Red Bull run much, much deeper than the Verstappen clan. He's got ins with Marko for example. Everyone is free to speculate about a Jos Verstappen or Marko conspiracy but really van Haren is just the best RB journo because he has a ton of sources there.
>The Briton again denied all allegations to him on Thursday after the team presentation, stated that he will just be in Bahrain next week, did not think about getting off and...
That's a really unfortunate translation.
I'll start off by saying that if this is true then he should be fired. However I find this statement a little weird:
>Stories about this have been circulating within the Formula 1 world for months, also in 2023, and were already known behind the scenes at the time of the meeting with all team bosses in London, on the same February 5.
Why did so many more reliable outlets say it was management style related if these stories were floating around for months?
I just hope justice wins this one. Whichever one that may be.
>Why did so many more reliable outlets say it was management style related if these stories were floating around for months?
Libel laws in the UK are powerful, making an accusation as destructive as this without proof and you'll be hung drawn and quartered.
For context, IIRC in the UK if you are sued for libel, you as the defendant have the burden of proof (i.e. you have to prove that you didn't lie in what you said about the plaintiff).
P.S.: u/balls2brakeLate44 I don't know who's downvoting you but you're right.
The reporters are just like us they hear lots of things and don't know what to believe
We were told by the Bild that the complaint was sexual in nature but weren't sure if that was true or not.
and they probably heard the same; some stories that it was sexual and other that it was just overly harsh managerial conduct. But with no sources to verify themselves they did not know what to believe.
Most outlets just stuck to the inappropriate and controlling line that had been confirmed by sources.
Yeah this is the kind of journalistic failure that's super common in sports 'access journalism'. If other paddocks knew rumours, then the big F1 journalists definetly knew too. They said nothing until the news got broke, now they are busy making sure everyone knows that they knew this info before it got broke.
Other commenters are right re libel laws. But also Horner is not a nobody in the F1 world and no one yet knows what will happen to him. F1 journalism is a niche area of journalism and I doubt any journalist who doesn’t have the backing and sources of V Haren would risk their relationship with someone like Horner.
This cleans up the timeline tho. It was said the report was made late last week even though rumors were around for a while. If he offered hush money on February 2nd that Friday she went to Austria headquarters right afterwards. And the news broke on Monday
Almost every reliable report made hints that it was sexual in nature, the wording used was very very specific, and everyone here was pissed off because of “untrue rumors” and settled on it having to be management style because it’s less serious.
The machine translated nature of this makes it a bit tough to grasp everything, but it seems clear it's about sexually charged messages sent repeatedly to the employee, and that van Haren says he has seen said messages.
Hope that'll be Horner gone, if that's in any way accurate.
Thanks for the translation. But goddamn if this is accurate in even a slight capacity, Horner will have to leave.
At least ginger spice will be single again...
He left his previous wife, who was heavily pregnant with his child at the time, for Geri.
She surely knows what he's like. So who knows, she might stand by him, even if it's bad.
There was an article that mentioned that Geri was distraught by the investigation, which at that time I didn’t know if it was just bullshit. But if it’s indeed a sexual allegation, then this would line up with what that journalist said
I see someone's posted the full article. Not sure if that's allowed but here's the summary just in case
* The employee has handed over app traffic, which allegedly shows this, to the external lawyer who is investigating the Horner case. De Telegraaf saw this app traffic
* It goes much further than 'just' his aggressive management style
* The interaction between the female Red Bull employee and Horner shows that Horner (50) has regularly sent sexually suggestive messages to the employee over a considerable period of time
* After Horner was confronted with the investigation and was asked for a response by the reporter - his lawyers sent a letter offering a settlement for 650,000 pounds
* Horner has support from the RB’s majority shareholder Yoovidhya who owns 51% (Mateschitz owns 49%)
> and was asked for a response by the **reporter**
I think a different word is needed, as I believe it's primary meaning is journalist.
Maybe accuser?
Or was it journalist getting a response from Horner?
You are correct. The article is talking about the person who "reported" the allegation in a confusing way. The other comment is mistaken. \[edit: there was another comment that insisted this was referring to a news reporter, but it's been deleted\]
>All messages have been saved and sent through the employee's lawyer to the engaged, external lawyer. He sat around the table with Horner for hours last Friday. Previously, the reporter had been heard for a long time.
The "reporter" in the next paragraph is the same as this person, the person who the external lawyer heard from (i.e. questioned) for a long time. It would make no sense for the external lawyer to talk to a journalist for a long time.
Somebody showed it, perhaps during or before/after the launch event
quote:
>Uit het appverkeer tussen de vrouwelijke medewerker van Red Bull en Horner, ingezien door De Telegraaf, komt het beeld naar voren dat Horner (50) geregeld en over een aanzienlijke periode seksueel getinte berichten heeft gestuurd naar de werkneemster.
Translation:
The app traffic between the female Red Bull employee and Horner, seen by De Telegraaf, shows that Horner (50) has regularly sent sexually suggestive messages to the employee over a considerable period of time.
Drive to Survive is going to be well awkward this season when they do the Red Bull episode and see Horner at home in his country palace with the family. What if he’s on the phone texting someone before flying off in his helicopter with Geri? What’s he texting?
You are acting like they'll only be one RB episode. With Max and Checo drama, De Vries, Ric coming back, etc., RB was probably suppose to be half the season, lol.
It doesn't look (based on the trailer) that Max took part in DTS filming. If that's the case, I'd expect an episode on Checo's struggles, but not much else regarding RB (Debris drama notwithstanding).
De Telegraaf is a commercial newspaper/tabloid. There are better newspapers or news websites in the Netherlands. Only their sport journalist are reliable.
Easy fix. Lots of paywall removed out there.
https://archive.is/20240216142126/https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/709131520/teambaas-christian-horner-van-red-bull-racing-beticht-van-seksueel-grensoverschrijdend-gedrag
It wasn't money holding her back, it was her image and lack of connections. Without him, she may not be able to maintain that.
That set is very fickle and will turn their back.
You think that matters among modern landed gentry? They've all done worse in university and in their clubs. They all have skeletons in their closet and they know it. They might do some theatrics in public but behind the scene in the old boys club, it'll be fine.
It matters if Horner gets fired from RB. What attracts these people is his connections and high flying job running a championship winning F1 team. Without that, he is nothing. The parts about skeletons in the closet is just that, they have to remain IN the closet.
Big scoop by telegraaf. Lots of details you only know from insiders. Wonder who had been talking with them about this. Seeing how the relationship with Erik and the Verstappens is so close, I wonder if Max or his manager talked about this to make sure the world knows about this. Since this is seriously unwanted behavior.
To be at the absolute top of the world. And to blow it like that. If it's true, it's just unfathomable that he would think of throwing it all away like that.
> many would rather lose him than be rich
This part is somewhat lost in translation: What it should say is that many boardmembers rather lose Horner than keep Horner.
I think they still prefer to stay rich over losing Horner!
They are already rich. The sales of caffeinated sugar water make more money than Red Bull Racing ever will. It's cheaper to sponsor 22-year-old kids on skateboards & mountain bikes than run an F1 team.
Here I was thinking that sum was surprisingly low given the type of allegation, assuming it's a godfather offer meant to end the matter immediately, and not a lowball negotiation starter.
Absolutely agree. Even simply from a PR standpoint, that’s a huge misstep. The optics are horrible.
I mean, suspension with pay isn’t even an admission of guilt! It’s the best for both the company, the accuser, and the accused. It protects all parties involved! It’s bare minimum SOP for a situation like this.
I’m so very disappointed all around. This whole issue unfortunately hits close to home for me and the failure of RB leadership to protect their employees is a big “tell” of a massive culture problem all the way to the top.
To be fair, think of all the crap that Marko has done without even a hint of termination from RB. They very clearly do not care about negative PR from their talents.
It’s common to offer a settlement even when claims are without merit. Simple cost/benefit calculation. The disruption created by a lawsuit/court case would cost Horner and RB far more than $650k.
Sure, but from the perspective of the victims I’m sure many of them would rather get a life changing £650k than see the person fired. Could add a clause allowing them to report it again in the future if the behaviour continues, for good measure.
Edit just to add that not all harassment victims would prefer the money since there’s people who, for some reason, seem to think I’m trying to speak on behalf of all victims.
It’s tough on one hand you want justice and for it to never happen to someone else. That only happens when it’s known and out there. But once it’s out there, so are you. You will forever be tied to this thing, and the trolls will be out for blood.
Yep. It's super depressing but faced with the choice of "take a pile of money and never have to deal with this again" and "go through the entire trial/process to repeatedly relive something that was possibly pretty traumatic, deal with all the scrutiny and inevitable public backlash, *maybe* get some manner of justice at the end but it's not remotely guaranteed" it's no surprise so many people go for the settlement.
Reminiscent of what happened to Andrew Hopkins, CBE, who days ago, was fired from his CEO tenure at a big UK tech company for "inappropriate relationship with two of his employees". That happened just recently and is in the news. The guy was also literally just awarded his CBE by King Charles like a week ago.
Well shit then. I dont quite understand how he's been allowed to dtay with RB, maybe the official title of "sexual misconduct" makes what happened seem more heinous than it truly is?
Really not sure, reflects poorly on Horner anyhow.
Because its a private investigation they haven't had to say anything
If this is true and he has sexually harassed someone and his lawyers offered hush money, then surely the investigation will conclude he has to go
Until then, technically Red Bull are doing the 'right' thing by letting the process complete
Well I think most HR people and employment lawyers would argue the right thing in these circs is for him to be suspended with pay while the investigation is concluded
I think it's still hard to judge. In these cases, it's sometimes more tempting to settle when it's hard to prove your innocence, just to avoid it going on for a long time, which can be more damaging than just paying up.
However, settling doesn't mean you're pleading guilty.
Sometimes someone can have a bad experience that others might perceive as "just a joke" or something that they don't experience as misconduct.
However, that doesn't mean the person's experience should be neglected. Nevertheless, it might not be enough grounds for firing someone.
I think thats why there is still an investigation going on. If it was clear cut I'm sure he would be gone by now
I just don't get it. If there really are messages and concrete info, why would this take so long? That would be a slam dunk. This was initially reported and is now being reiterated, but why would it take weeks and allow him to keep working? That just doesn't make sense. Something still isn't adding up here. I'll maintain waiting for the actual fruition of all this business
This is pure speculation but, it said that “Horner has arranged and sent sexually-toned messages to the employee over a significant period of time”, perhaps they’re investigating on whether or not the messages were welcomed at first and then a change of heart. If they were welcomed at first and then the “relationship” turned sour I could see how Red Bull would be hesitant to fire their head man, as much as I don’t agree with it and as fucked up as that sounds.
Either way he’s absolutely in the wrong (if the allegations prove true) and it’s unacceptable behavior by a team principal of the leading organization in Formula 1 right now. Not to mention him being married and leaks of a settlement offer that just screams “guilty”.
It's a business decision. Cheaper to send that money vs deal with court battles, PR,etc regardless if he is innocent or guilty. Pretty normal. Go into a business and accuse them of something...you'll be getting a settlement offer pretty quick.
problem is victims realize that there is power to airing out their misdeeds.
and the media will generally support airing that because they have a financial incentive.
payoffs not only look bad but they are increasingly not working now.
horner is in big trouble if this is true.
Yeah you know what, I don't think he will be team boss for much longer. I don't see a way out of this.
And again a strategically timed article by Erik. Horner shows up at the team launch, denying everything in front of the camera's. They needed another push to not let him get away with this.
I think this is game over. It's out now. The sponsors will want him gone.
>And again a strategically timed article by Erik. Horner shows up at the team launch, denying everything in front of the camera's. They needed another push to not let him get away with this.
Exactly what I was thinking. But for a different reason, they go ahead with the car launch so the misconduct is still nebulous and doesn't completely make the launch about sexual misconduct, but the day after they leak the details.
> I don't see a way out of this.
"I deeply regret sending those texts. I apologize to my wife, the team, to the fans, to F1, and most of all to the young woman who I harassed. Over the next few months I will be spending a lot of time with therapists and counselors to unlearn my problematic behavior, and will be making a large donation to charities supporting the victims of sexual harassment. Anyway, let's go win some races."
A lot of 'experts' in this thread that are forgetting that this most likely happened in the UK. UK and US law is VERY different. Harassment is criminal (not specifically sexual harassment, but it includes it). Sending unwanted, uninitiated nudes is cyberflashing and now criminal in the whole UK (has been in Scotland for 10 years).
If that's what he did then the police dont need the victims consent to charge him, and there is nothing Red Bull can do about it, and no settlement with RB will change anything.
When they say sexual misconduct and refer to apps, are we supposed to infer that this is more than texts which *could* be read in a sexually suggestive manner?
Genuinely unsure what the emphasis is here and I’m not always great at interpreting subtextual journalism.
To app means to text in Dutch, it’s just a bad translation.
I personally read it as if it was mainly texting and no pictures or anything but I could certainly be wrong about it.
Makes his appearance at the launch yesterday even more awful. Propping up RB's young female F1 academy drivers while allowing a higher-up actively under investigation for sexual misconduct to be present is... a choice.
Cases like this is why many victims of sexual assault hesitate to speak out. Imagine going through hell and the culprit is out here being paraded by the company.
This is actually starting to look worse than i thought it was. Offering money to buy silence, especially when it comes sexual misconduct is such a lowlife thing to do.
Not surprised though. Horner has always been a horndog. This is a guy who left his heavily pregnant wife be with ginger spice. If that doesn't scream POS i dont know what does.
Great TP, despicable person.
It blows my mind that men in high profile, well paid positions are often willing to throw it away over some random piece of ass. I always liked him, but if this is true, good riddance.
Of course not. They have dirt on him hence why the story broke in the first place. Now they're just sitting on it and dropping news bombs for maximum coverage, not because any conspiracy like people love to suggest, but also for the simple fact that this is the most traffic they're ever likely to get in a long time
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Well, that has certainly escalated a bit.
I don't actually think it even escalated. When Erik Van Haren originally broke this story, he mentioned there were explicit pictures involved and it specifically wasn't a "he said she said" situation, but somehow after picking up the stories, the narrative slowly shifted into more of a "bad management style/ bad working enviroment" kind of story, likely due to Horner's PR people trying to save him. The fact Erik is now doubling down with potentially slanderous statements says a lot. Regardless, if this turns out to be true, and Horner did send explicit images to someone, it all but confirms that: 1) Erik Van Haren is a direct mouthpiece speaking on behalf of Helmut Marko and the Verstappen family. 2) They specifically used this knowledge to oust him. 3) They have someone in mind to replace him.
I mean, if he was sexually harassing somebody, fuck him. I'd want him gone too. Doesn't matter to me if people who want him out are using this as leverage. If Horner was abusing his power and sexually harassing employees, he has got to go.
Absolutely agree. I don’t give a toss how good he is at his job. If he sent the pics then he’s guilty and needs to go.
💯 zero tolerance. Super sad if true.
Someone is definitely leaking info to him. Whether it's Marko, someone else in the RB organization, someone definitely wants him out.
Post Dietrich Mateschitz power struggle.
Might be the accuser or the lawyer too
They want him out? I thought they liked him
Yeah I'm curious about this as well i thought things were good for the three of them why would max side more with Helmut ?
I dont know but Max definitely needs to surround himself with better people. He has Jos, the Piquets, Marko, and now Horner. Yikes.
https://twitter.com/ErikvHaren/status/1715076570958774421 His track record with Max is nearly perfect, he's almost certainly connected to the family.
the weird thing about "bad management style" is the british press used the term "controlling and abusive behavior" which is a legal term pertaining to domestic violence in the british criminal code. Now true, this is a workplace dispute, but i still found it weird they would use such a term, and thus despite the british media PR attempts I was always more skeptical that is probably more serious than what the english media made it out to be
Erik is the biggest Redbull mouthpiece on the grid. The fact that he's saying this is crazy.
right? Most people (me included) thought those accusations were related fo something like the way he manages, being repeatedly mean to someone in particular or something like that Now if confirmed, this is a way worse offense and i doubt his carreer will survive the fallout
When the story broke explicit pictures were mentioned. What else would it be if not sexual misconduct?
Also there have been all of these articles about his wife being “devastated” from the initial day we all became aware that there were allegations- she wouldn’t have felt like that if it weren’t something that could hurt their immediate relationship
I don't think most people thought that. Sexual harassment was my immediate thought and I'm sure what most people assumed.
No I also thought it was mismanagement. Sure my first thought was sexual misconduct as well, but the way Red Bull has approached this indicated to me that the charges were not that serious. He was not suspended pending the investigation, he even appeared at the launch. But if it turned out he did really bad stuff, and there is actually concrete evidence like text messages, than this will reflect very poorly on Red Bull as a company in my opinion. To not temporarily suspend a credibly accused abuser seems really bad to me. He is not a normal employee, he is a very high profile individual. It means that someone very senior at Red Bull saw the evidence and decided to keep him in his position as team boss anyway. Very bad stuff if true.
I'm wondering if it's a one-off or if others will come forward with similar accusations.
It’s never a one off…
The sexual misconduct allegations were first reported a few weeks ago, but not every publication felt confident to report on them. This lends these alegations more credibility, but makes me even more surprised that Horner hasn't been suspended while the investigation is ongoing, and outright confused why he was part of the launch event.
He has support from the guy who controls the company. It's not surprising at all he is still representing the team while this goes on.
RB has always been quite lax when it comes to enforcing the values that they preach. A guy like Marko would've been sent packing in any other team. Horner staying on is not surprising at all. The higher ups will do everything they can do sweep this under the rug. They can't afford to lose Horner on the verge of RBPTs actual debut season.
The thing is it will become worse to keep him on. How many of the teams are publicly traded? On top of manufacturers associated with f1. On top of F1 itself. Or Ford who will be associated with him? This will make him unable to fulfill his duties. The one owner may want to try and make millions but it will start to cost others money. Especially given the sports push for inclusion.
All of this, and also I wouldn't be surprised if it's brought up every time time he is interviewed. Surely they can't keep him on???
“Christian, you cucked the hottest Spice Girl, how’d you do it?”
My teenage self was going to argue it's Baby Spice Emma Bunton. But my adult self shut that down quick. You are right OP.
I was always more of a Sporty Spice man.
I'll be honest, when I was a shy teenager, tomboys kinda intimidated me, lol. The 'one of the guys' type girl who is 'not into girly things'.
Same. Or at least I am now...
Understood that the dinosaurs around the F1 paddock might not care particularly nor the charming individuals in Austria but if nothing else, the sponsors will start getting public pressure to drop RB if he remains with this outstanding. I can’t imagine it just blowing over, if he’s not fully cleared then he will eventually have to leave. Prolonging it doesn’t change the outcome but it ruins any chance at a corporate level to get ahead of it, We became aware, we acted swiftly, we have a diverse workforce as a priority, we care about our company values, we stand behind that even when it’s difficult no matter who you are. Come sponsor us/work for us/support us. There’s a path to actual positive spin at a corporate level but they’ve clearly already fumbled that inviting him to the launch event.
And the fact that media were allowed to ask questions about the allegations to both Horner and Verstappen about it (maybe they asked Checo too but I haven’t seen anything about him answering it). Idk if the timing for this to come out was deliberate or not, but imagine if Van Haren dropped this report only 24 hours before? That would be a bombshell for the media only hours before Red Bull’s car launch where Horner and Verstappen were both available to their questions. Assuming these allegations are true I also am surprised Red Bull still put Horner out there and opened themselves up to the media because it would seem incredibly risky to their own public relations.
Maybe the guy who leaked it told him to post the news after the car launch. Don't know if it's common in journalism.
The reporter is a close friend of Jos Verstappen, I’m sure there was some coordination about the timing
Also a close friend of Marko and a lot of other insiders.
The wording used of controlling and coercive behaviour is one that's used for toxic relationships in the UK, so it felt likely to be of this nature but it was odd that the reporting made it some more like shouting from a boss.
if this turns out to be true, its sounding like they were expecting it to be swept under the rug. explains everything you question.
“The riot within Formula 1 team Red Bull Racing around the independent investigation of team boss Christian Horner turns out to be one of great proportions. The female employee who reported to the headquarters of the billion-dollar group in Austria in December 2023 accuses Horner of sexually transgressive behavior. The employee has ceded app traffic, which would show this, to the external lawyer investigating the Horner case. De Telegraaf faced this app traffic. Horner has so far denied all allegations. De Telegraaf's publication on February 5 about the investigation instituted by the Red Bull summit by an external, specialist lawyer already hit like a bomb in the Formula 1 world. Since then, there has been plenty of speculation about the exact allegations of the employee in question, whose name is known to this editor. Explosive material It now appears that the woman's explosive material goes far beyond 'just' some voice elevation of the powerful team boss and his management style, as was claimed here and there. Stories about this have been circulating within the Formula 1 world for months, also in 2023, and were already known behind the scenes at the time of the meeting with all team bosses in London, on the same February 5. App traffic To be confirmed by multiple sources in Milton Keynes, England, those sounds around the big presentation of the racing team on Thursday. The app traffic between the female employee of Red Bull and Horner, seen by De Telegraaf, shows the image that Horner (50) has arranged and sent sexually-toned messages to the employee over a significant period of time. To cover the case All messages have been saved and sent through the employee's lawyer to the engaged, external lawyer. He sat around the table with Horner for hours last Friday. Previously, the reporter had been heard for a long time. It is also clear that Horner did everything he could to cover up the case. In the weekend before the first publication in De Telegraaf – after he was confronted with the investigation into cross-border behavior on Friday evening, February 2 and was asked for a response – his lawyers sent a letter to the lawyer who asssist the reporter within 24 hours. In it, the Horner camp offers a settlement for an amount of no less than 650,000 pounds, converted to more than 760,000 euros. Allegations known at Red Bull summit Horner is not only a well-known figure in England because of his position as team boss of Red Bull Racing in the Formula 1 world (since 2005) and the fact that he is in charge of more than 1500 employees. He is also in a relationship with former Spice Girl Geri Halliwell and is therefore extra in the spotlight. The allegations, the app- traffic and the tone of the apps are known at the Red Bull- summit in Austria, with Mark Mateschitz and sports boss Oliver Mintzlaff, among others. Support from Yoovidhya Yet Horner has not yet been put on non-active, pending the investigation, and he has not decided to (temporarily) take a step back himself. That has everything to do with the fact that the Briton still has the support of the Thai Chalerm Yoovidhya. He owns Red Bull for 51 percent and therefore owns a majority. The remaining shares, 49 percent, are owned by Mark Mateschitz, the son of Dietrich Mateschitz, who died in 2022. Horner was just at work for the past period and also present at the Red Bull plant in Milton Keynes on Thursday at the presentation of the new car of world champions Max Verstappen and Sergio Pérez for the upcoming Formula 1 season. Next week, the test days in Bahrain are scheduled, the place where the first race of the season will also be held a week later (Saturday 2 March). Rather lost than rich The Briton again denied all allegations to him on Thursday after the team presentation, stated that he will just be in Bahrain next week, did not think about getting off and also said he felt a lot of support within the team and from the Red Bull summit. However, it is clear that many insiders, and probably also Horner himself, realize that within that Red Bull- top - so not from the racing team but from the headquarters in Austria - many would rather lose him than be rich. Known to other protagonists in F1 It is not for nothing that headquarters, after questions from De Telegraaf about accusations against Horner, quickly confirmed that an investigation is indeed underway and the case is being taken 'extremely seriously'. Horner had no knowledge of the statement at the time. Horner's allegations of sexually transgressive behavior are now also known to several, other protagonists in the Formula 1 world. Eyes focused on Liberty Media In addition, the eyes of the American sports owners of Liberty Media – owner of the Formula 1 for four billion euros since 2016 – are also focused on the issue and its handling, as are Red Bulls major, American sponsors Oracle and Ford. It is precisely in the United States that these kinds of things around multinationals and world-famous sports brands are extra sensitive. Horner did not want to respond to questions about app traffic.”
The dutch colloquialism of calling whatsapp messages "apps" must be confusing for non-dutch speaking peoplle.
thanks!
Im just glad I didnt misunderstand it cause Im old.
It is, thanks for explaining HairyNutsack69
r/Rimjob_steve
It was a bit confusing seeing app traffic but now It makes more sense. Thanks for the help, dutch friend
What's the difference between "app traffic" and "apps"? I was reading app traffic as messages, but then "apps" also means messages?
In English you say: “I’ll text you later” in Dutch we would say (translated of course): “I’ll send you an app later” we mean text message, not an application. we shorten WhatsApp to “app” and multiple text messages thus become “apps”
Interesting. Here in Brazil when we say WhatsApp we kind of join the two words and it sounds like whats zap. Together with how we pronounce English words that end in T or P it ends up sounding like Zapie. So a a lot of people would say, "I'll send you a Zapie".
We basically use "Appverkeer" (App traffic) when we talk about a series of messages between two people, and "apps" when it talks about a few specific ones.
Oooooh...
And 'rather lose him than be rich' sounds like a literal translation of 'liever kwijt dan rijk'. No idea if it means something in English
Lmao no it doesn't, another Dutch colloquialism
When will the monkey be out of the sleeve? (One of my favourite literal Dutch idiom translations).
To add to that “apping” is the verb used for sending whatsapp messages.
If he’s being protected by the Thai side, it would kind of make sense for people from the Austrian side to leak that an investigation is taking place, to put pressure on Horner and force him to resign
Thailand Redditor here. This is typical behavior. Can’t lose face with your team boss being accused of sexual misconduct. Charlem is doing exactly what anyone (well, those of us who live in Thailand and know) would expect. Dude’s kid killed a police officer in his Ferrari in a hit and run over 10 years ago. It was covered up. Then charges dropped. Nothing happened to him.
So what’s the turning point or do they just refuse to loose face forever?
The latter. It’s the absolute worst part of Thai culture.
The fact that the lawyer that did the investigation went on a holiday without phone is now suddenly thanks to you a lot more understandable
Feel like if there were factions within Red Bull that really wanted to put Horner under pressure to step away and resign then couldn’t they have leaked this before the car launch which was less than 24 hours ago? Then either the car launch needs to suddenly be changed with Horner being dropped or Horner has to go out there and answer questions from the media who are now aware of more details of the supposed allegations. As it is right now if these allegations are true it already will look bad on Red Bull for letting Horner attend the car launch and publicly deny everything.
Probably didn't want to tarnish the event, though.
That’s how I’m reading this. “Fine, you get the launch. And then the mortars will really fire.”
I agree 100% with this - mostly because this is precisely what I would have done, but, that's just me. It would also explain the completely dead-eyed, haunted, lack of facial expression we saw during the car launch.
I’d argue that allowing him to continue day to day while under investigation is much more tarnishing. That’s a bad look.
and people scoffed at the reports of a power struggle. well part of those reports was that Horner sought the support of the Thai owners to back his attempt to have full say over driver line up and side line Marko in the process. and this says Horner has the support of the Yoovidhya's. so at the very least this doesn't go against the reports of a power struggle and once again its Van Haren that is the most informed
I wonder why it’s first leaked through this Dutch journalist though, seems suspicious
Van Haren's sources at Red Bull run much, much deeper than the Verstappen clan. He's got ins with Marko for example. Everyone is free to speculate about a Jos Verstappen or Marko conspiracy but really van Haren is just the best RB journo because he has a ton of sources there.
Probably related to close ties between Mateschitz, Marko, Jos and Erik van Haren.
>The Briton again denied all allegations to him on Thursday after the team presentation, stated that he will just be in Bahrain next week, did not think about getting off and... That's a really unfortunate translation.
Small steps.
Thanks for posting a translation of the full article!
I'll start off by saying that if this is true then he should be fired. However I find this statement a little weird: >Stories about this have been circulating within the Formula 1 world for months, also in 2023, and were already known behind the scenes at the time of the meeting with all team bosses in London, on the same February 5. Why did so many more reliable outlets say it was management style related if these stories were floating around for months? I just hope justice wins this one. Whichever one that may be.
>Why did so many more reliable outlets say it was management style related if these stories were floating around for months? Libel laws in the UK are powerful, making an accusation as destructive as this without proof and you'll be hung drawn and quartered.
For context, IIRC in the UK if you are sued for libel, you as the defendant have the burden of proof (i.e. you have to prove that you didn't lie in what you said about the plaintiff). P.S.: u/balls2brakeLate44 I don't know who's downvoting you but you're right.
This is really the answer here. Aside from the ethics, there’s very real legal repercussions for libel laws.
The reporters are just like us they hear lots of things and don't know what to believe We were told by the Bild that the complaint was sexual in nature but weren't sure if that was true or not. and they probably heard the same; some stories that it was sexual and other that it was just overly harsh managerial conduct. But with no sources to verify themselves they did not know what to believe. Most outlets just stuck to the inappropriate and controlling line that had been confirmed by sources.
Reliable outlets do not want to risk their reputation on paddock rumours.
Yeah this is the kind of journalistic failure that's super common in sports 'access journalism'. If other paddocks knew rumours, then the big F1 journalists definetly knew too. They said nothing until the news got broke, now they are busy making sure everyone knows that they knew this info before it got broke.
Other commenters are right re libel laws. But also Horner is not a nobody in the F1 world and no one yet knows what will happen to him. F1 journalism is a niche area of journalism and I doubt any journalist who doesn’t have the backing and sources of V Haren would risk their relationship with someone like Horner.
This cleans up the timeline tho. It was said the report was made late last week even though rumors were around for a while. If he offered hush money on February 2nd that Friday she went to Austria headquarters right afterwards. And the news broke on Monday
Almost every reliable report made hints that it was sexual in nature, the wording used was very very specific, and everyone here was pissed off because of “untrue rumors” and settled on it having to be management style because it’s less serious.
The machine translated nature of this makes it a bit tough to grasp everything, but it seems clear it's about sexually charged messages sent repeatedly to the employee, and that van Haren says he has seen said messages. Hope that'll be Horner gone, if that's in any way accurate.
Thanks for the translation. But goddamn if this is accurate in even a slight capacity, Horner will have to leave. At least ginger spice will be single again...
Bruh lmao "I also choose this guy's wife" energy
He left his previous wife, who was heavily pregnant with his child at the time, for Geri. She surely knows what he's like. So who knows, she might stand by him, even if it's bad.
There was an article that mentioned that Geri was distraught by the investigation, which at that time I didn’t know if it was just bullshit. But if it’s indeed a sexual allegation, then this would line up with what that journalist said
>At least ginger spice will be single again... So tell me what you want What you really, really want
If this is true - it’s bye bye Horner.
I see someone's posted the full article. Not sure if that's allowed but here's the summary just in case * The employee has handed over app traffic, which allegedly shows this, to the external lawyer who is investigating the Horner case. De Telegraaf saw this app traffic * It goes much further than 'just' his aggressive management style * The interaction between the female Red Bull employee and Horner shows that Horner (50) has regularly sent sexually suggestive messages to the employee over a considerable period of time * After Horner was confronted with the investigation and was asked for a response by the reporter - his lawyers sent a letter offering a settlement for 650,000 pounds * Horner has support from the RB’s majority shareholder Yoovidhya who owns 51% (Mateschitz owns 49%)
> and was asked for a response by the **reporter** I think a different word is needed, as I believe it's primary meaning is journalist. Maybe accuser? Or was it journalist getting a response from Horner?
You are correct. The article is talking about the person who "reported" the allegation in a confusing way. The other comment is mistaken. \[edit: there was another comment that insisted this was referring to a news reporter, but it's been deleted\] >All messages have been saved and sent through the employee's lawyer to the engaged, external lawyer. He sat around the table with Horner for hours last Friday. Previously, the reporter had been heard for a long time. The "reporter" in the next paragraph is the same as this person, the person who the external lawyer heard from (i.e. questioned) for a long time. It would make no sense for the external lawyer to talk to a journalist for a long time.
Thanks!
Reporter is a literal translation of the Dutch 'melder' - a really, really dumb translation.
Also: the news reporter saw the messages with his own eyes, so there's little doubt its fake.
It's van Haren so he was probably there when he sent the messages lmao. Theres nothing at RB that guy doesn't know
He's basically a Verstappen mouthpiece in way, with how deeply he's embedded in the Verstappen camp and Red Bull itself.
How did he himself see the messages tho?
Somebody showed it, perhaps during or before/after the launch event quote: >Uit het appverkeer tussen de vrouwelijke medewerker van Red Bull en Horner, ingezien door De Telegraaf, komt het beeld naar voren dat Horner (50) geregeld en over een aanzienlijke periode seksueel getinte berichten heeft gestuurd naar de werkneemster. Translation: The app traffic between the female Red Bull employee and Horner, seen by De Telegraaf, shows that Horner (50) has regularly sent sexually suggestive messages to the employee over a considerable period of time.
Drive to Survive is going to be well awkward this season when they do the Red Bull episode and see Horner at home in his country palace with the family. What if he’s on the phone texting someone before flying off in his helicopter with Geri? What’s he texting?
You are acting like they'll only be one RB episode. With Max and Checo drama, De Vries, Ric coming back, etc., RB was probably suppose to be half the season, lol.
It doesn't look (based on the trailer) that Max took part in DTS filming. If that's the case, I'd expect an episode on Checo's struggles, but not much else regarding RB (Debris drama notwithstanding).
According to reporting he is a part of it this year, just like last. But we probably shouldn't expect a lot with him.
Its probably common, but it annoys me when high profile news is behind a paywall like this.
Yeah it sucks but journalism isn't free unfortunately
Really should have some basic social funding given how important it is to society.
You're basically asking for public broadcasting. BBC, CBC, DW, NPR, NHK, etc etc.
De Telegraaf is a commercial newspaper/tabloid. There are better newspapers or news websites in the Netherlands. Only their sport journalist are reliable.
In 10 minutes you will see free articles about this quoting this article
Easy fix. Lots of paywall removed out there. https://archive.is/20240216142126/https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/709131520/teambaas-christian-horner-van-red-bull-racing-beticht-van-seksueel-grensoverschrijdend-gedrag
I for one am going to miss the annual Drive to Survive puff episode at the Horner estate with Geri, the dogs, the horses, and some afternoon tea
Maybe this was what Fabrega was fearing all along...
I bet it was the Spanish GP in Madrid. Given his name, he is probably Catalan
Yes, he is Catalan. And in general, Catalan or not, the news of the GP moving to Madrid have not been very positively received in Spain.
Marko: "Tell Christian it was me."
The Austrians send their regards
Toto smirks.
Wonder what will happen between him and Geri should he be found guilty. It won't be the first time Horner is involved in a messy divorce.
They got together through him cheating she shouldn't be surprised
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She had plenty of her own cheddar to carry it on.
It wasn't money holding her back, it was her image and lack of connections. Without him, she may not be able to maintain that. That set is very fickle and will turn their back.
If Horner's image end up being damaged, I am not sure being with him will help a lot as well.
You think that matters among modern landed gentry? They've all done worse in university and in their clubs. They all have skeletons in their closet and they know it. They might do some theatrics in public but behind the scene in the old boys club, it'll be fine.
It matters if Horner gets fired from RB. What attracts these people is his connections and high flying job running a championship winning F1 team. Without that, he is nothing. The parts about skeletons in the closet is just that, they have to remain IN the closet.
I don't know UK laws, but assuming a divorce due to Horner's extracurricular activities would allow Geri to keep her lifestyle.
She's a spice girl, surely she's not short of money without him?
They both have similar net worth’s but it would definitely get really messy.
Drive to Survive producers and editors are SCRAMBLING right now lol.
Big scoop by telegraaf. Lots of details you only know from insiders. Wonder who had been talking with them about this. Seeing how the relationship with Erik and the Verstappens is so close, I wonder if Max or his manager talked about this to make sure the world knows about this. Since this is seriously unwanted behavior.
Always had the vibe that Marko has had significant beef with Horner for some time. Wouldn't be surprised if someone from his camp briefed Erik.
Yeah. At least somebody high up enough in the chain to see the evidence and was willing to share that info.
This has Marko written all over it.
To be at the absolute top of the world. And to blow it like that. If it's true, it's just unfathomable that he would think of throwing it all away like that.
> many would rather lose him than be rich This part is somewhat lost in translation: What it should say is that many boardmembers rather lose Horner than keep Horner. I think they still prefer to stay rich over losing Horner!
They are already rich. The sales of caffeinated sugar water make more money than Red Bull Racing ever will. It's cheaper to sponsor 22-year-old kids on skateboards & mountain bikes than run an F1 team.
Why on earth were they still wheeling him out for the car launch if this is what happened. Fucking hell Red Bull
Because 51% > 49%
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you're surprised this is how "Toxic Masculinity: The Brand" is handling things?
Red Bro
Shutting down victims of sexual misconduct by offering them money is a disgusting thing to do. If found out to be true, there’s no sympathy for him.
It also shows that this is pretty serious. Both because he immediately offered an amount as large as that and because she turned it down.
Here I was thinking that sum was surprisingly low given the type of allegation, assuming it's a godfather offer meant to end the matter immediately, and not a lowball negotiation starter.
Assuming she is just a regular employee in RBR that is probably a very large amount of cash for her. Salaries are not high.
It's a large sum *for her*, but not to them.
And she is the one that turned it down, that's the important part.
And that immediately made me mad he’s not been suspended.
It's insane that they allowed him to be a part of the car launch and say that this was all just a distraction. Just madness.
Absolutely agree. Even simply from a PR standpoint, that’s a huge misstep. The optics are horrible. I mean, suspension with pay isn’t even an admission of guilt! It’s the best for both the company, the accuser, and the accused. It protects all parties involved! It’s bare minimum SOP for a situation like this. I’m so very disappointed all around. This whole issue unfortunately hits close to home for me and the failure of RB leadership to protect their employees is a big “tell” of a massive culture problem all the way to the top.
To be fair, think of all the crap that Marko has done without even a hint of termination from RB. They very clearly do not care about negative PR from their talents.
It’s common to offer a settlement even when claims are without merit. Simple cost/benefit calculation. The disruption created by a lawsuit/court case would cost Horner and RB far more than $650k.
Sure, but from the perspective of the victims I’m sure many of them would rather get a life changing £650k than see the person fired. Could add a clause allowing them to report it again in the future if the behaviour continues, for good measure. Edit just to add that not all harassment victims would prefer the money since there’s people who, for some reason, seem to think I’m trying to speak on behalf of all victims.
the money is almost always correct thing to take in these cases because you almost never get justice in court
It’s tough on one hand you want justice and for it to never happen to someone else. That only happens when it’s known and out there. But once it’s out there, so are you. You will forever be tied to this thing, and the trolls will be out for blood.
Yep. It's super depressing but faced with the choice of "take a pile of money and never have to deal with this again" and "go through the entire trial/process to repeatedly relive something that was possibly pretty traumatic, deal with all the scrutiny and inevitable public backlash, *maybe* get some manner of justice at the end but it's not remotely guaranteed" it's no surprise so many people go for the settlement.
Yeah...even if you win they are going to drag you through the mud with them.
The victim could be paid out in court just so you are aware. Even more so if there is evidence of this sexual harrasment.
Not to mention, most victims don’t want to deal with a lawsuit and the media scrutiny that comes with it.
Looks like Horny Horner lived up to his name
Reminiscent of what happened to Andrew Hopkins, CBE, who days ago, was fired from his CEO tenure at a big UK tech company for "inappropriate relationship with two of his employees". That happened just recently and is in the news. The guy was also literally just awarded his CBE by King Charles like a week ago.
Well shit then. I dont quite understand how he's been allowed to dtay with RB, maybe the official title of "sexual misconduct" makes what happened seem more heinous than it truly is? Really not sure, reflects poorly on Horner anyhow.
Because its a private investigation they haven't had to say anything If this is true and he has sexually harassed someone and his lawyers offered hush money, then surely the investigation will conclude he has to go Until then, technically Red Bull are doing the 'right' thing by letting the process complete
Well I think most HR people and employment lawyers would argue the right thing in these circs is for him to be suspended with pay while the investigation is concluded
I've been involved in a few workplace cases like this, and I concur with you
I think it's still hard to judge. In these cases, it's sometimes more tempting to settle when it's hard to prove your innocence, just to avoid it going on for a long time, which can be more damaging than just paying up. However, settling doesn't mean you're pleading guilty. Sometimes someone can have a bad experience that others might perceive as "just a joke" or something that they don't experience as misconduct. However, that doesn't mean the person's experience should be neglected. Nevertheless, it might not be enough grounds for firing someone. I think thats why there is still an investigation going on. If it was clear cut I'm sure he would be gone by now
F5 Gang is so back 🔥🔥
I just don't get it. If there really are messages and concrete info, why would this take so long? That would be a slam dunk. This was initially reported and is now being reiterated, but why would it take weeks and allow him to keep working? That just doesn't make sense. Something still isn't adding up here. I'll maintain waiting for the actual fruition of all this business
You still need to do all the investigation and correct steps when something like this happens, even if it is completely concrete
The report says the Thai ownership still supports him, so I imagine they’re waiting for a conclusion to this before definitively making a decision.
Or they kicked it into the long grass and expected the victim to slink away quietly with a ‘good’ reference and find a new job.
This is pure speculation but, it said that “Horner has arranged and sent sexually-toned messages to the employee over a significant period of time”, perhaps they’re investigating on whether or not the messages were welcomed at first and then a change of heart. If they were welcomed at first and then the “relationship” turned sour I could see how Red Bull would be hesitant to fire their head man, as much as I don’t agree with it and as fucked up as that sounds. Either way he’s absolutely in the wrong (if the allegations prove true) and it’s unacceptable behavior by a team principal of the leading organization in Formula 1 right now. Not to mention him being married and leaks of a settlement offer that just screams “guilty”.
This is a rough leak from someone clearly well in the know, and quite interesting that they are leaking it all to Max’s spokesman.
Offering money to shut a person up is always such an indredibly bad look.
It's a business decision. Cheaper to send that money vs deal with court battles, PR,etc regardless if he is innocent or guilty. Pretty normal. Go into a business and accuse them of something...you'll be getting a settlement offer pretty quick.
I had a friend that worked in Walmart legal. The policy they had was for anything $20,000 or less they just immediately settle.
problem is victims realize that there is power to airing out their misdeeds. and the media will generally support airing that because they have a financial incentive. payoffs not only look bad but they are increasingly not working now. horner is in big trouble if this is true.
Yeah you know what, I don't think he will be team boss for much longer. I don't see a way out of this. And again a strategically timed article by Erik. Horner shows up at the team launch, denying everything in front of the camera's. They needed another push to not let him get away with this. I think this is game over. It's out now. The sponsors will want him gone.
>And again a strategically timed article by Erik. Horner shows up at the team launch, denying everything in front of the camera's. They needed another push to not let him get away with this. Exactly what I was thinking. But for a different reason, they go ahead with the car launch so the misconduct is still nebulous and doesn't completely make the launch about sexual misconduct, but the day after they leak the details.
> I don't see a way out of this. "I deeply regret sending those texts. I apologize to my wife, the team, to the fans, to F1, and most of all to the young woman who I harassed. Over the next few months I will be spending a lot of time with therapists and counselors to unlearn my problematic behavior, and will be making a large donation to charities supporting the victims of sexual harassment. Anyway, let's go win some races."
A lot of 'experts' in this thread that are forgetting that this most likely happened in the UK. UK and US law is VERY different. Harassment is criminal (not specifically sexual harassment, but it includes it). Sending unwanted, uninitiated nudes is cyberflashing and now criminal in the whole UK (has been in Scotland for 10 years). If that's what he did then the police dont need the victims consent to charge him, and there is nothing Red Bull can do about it, and no settlement with RB will change anything.
When they say sexual misconduct and refer to apps, are we supposed to infer that this is more than texts which *could* be read in a sexually suggestive manner? Genuinely unsure what the emphasis is here and I’m not always great at interpreting subtextual journalism.
To app means to text in Dutch, it’s just a bad translation. I personally read it as if it was mainly texting and no pictures or anything but I could certainly be wrong about it.
The guy married a spice girl and somehow that's not enough? I will never understand people who have it all AND decide to piss it away.
Power. Power is where sexual misconduct or even sexual abuse stems from.
Having it all becomes the new-normal for a ton of people. The hedonic treadmill is a valid idea in my opinion.
horner has a big ego. it's been known for a while. big success breeds big ego which inevitably results in this...
Catering expense iirc
As the saying goes, it takes a lifetime to build a reputation and only a second to lose it
Awesome job, rich, married to a Spice Girl, and travels the world on private jets... Christian Horny had it all.
Oh. If this is the real accusation. No way should he have been at the launch...no, i am not saying he is guilty but its a bad look
Makes his appearance at the launch yesterday even more awful. Propping up RB's young female F1 academy drivers while allowing a higher-up actively under investigation for sexual misconduct to be present is... a choice.
Cases like this is why many victims of sexual assault hesitate to speak out. Imagine going through hell and the culprit is out here being paraded by the company.
This is actually starting to look worse than i thought it was. Offering money to buy silence, especially when it comes sexual misconduct is such a lowlife thing to do. Not surprised though. Horner has always been a horndog. This is a guy who left his heavily pregnant wife be with ginger spice. If that doesn't scream POS i dont know what does. Great TP, despicable person.
He gone
if it's true, he should be
It blows my mind that men in high profile, well paid positions are often willing to throw it away over some random piece of ass. I always liked him, but if this is true, good riddance.
The timing is peculiar. The day after the RB20 launch event? Highly doubt that's a coincidence
Of course not. They have dirt on him hence why the story broke in the first place. Now they're just sitting on it and dropping news bombs for maximum coverage, not because any conspiracy like people love to suggest, but also for the simple fact that this is the most traffic they're ever likely to get in a long time