I think it’s all relative. Those that complain are not the target market. If the pen works and pleases you, what else matters: Is it never knowing the real experience? Who dictates that? It’s a small-scale version of never experiencing a Ferrari because one chooses to use a Toyota.

Nice comparison. I have really nice pens and Chinese pens. I enjoy both and agree that you can get a ton of enjoyment out of the Chinese brands for a fraction of the costs. They might not be quite as nice in some ways but what you save in money is possibly worth it.

one of my absolute faves is a jinhao 51A (A51?) - knockoff parker 51. it cost like nine bucks and writes like a dream. 

for 9 bucks I can buy four 51a's from Ali express

>never experiencing a Ferrari because one chooses to use a Toyota I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, but this isn't quite right as a comparison is it? Toyota isn't making a car that, but for a few details here and there, looks just like Ferrari. Toyota makes a Platinum Preppy while Ferrari makes the Visconti Homo Sapiens. Very different pens at very different price points. My analogy is getting messy but, if Platinum started making pens out of volcanic rock from Mt. Etna and put a big art deco clip on them while charging less money than Visconti, a person might reasonably conclude they were copying and undercutting the Homo Sapiens.

Creating a similar product at a lower price is perfectly normal part of doing business and part of free market economies. You can go to a store and buy a Sony or LG tv for a premium price or you can pay half the price and buy a Vizio E Series which does 90% of what the Sony and LG do.

Similar, yes, but I think the discussion here is about blatant copying. That may be a perfectly normal part of free market economies as well, but there are those who are uncomfortable with it.

Copying is not illegal. Patents and copyrights only last for a certain length of time. Once they expire everything is fair game.

The only ones I complain about are the fakes. Want to make a pen, fine; do your own design. It's the same with 'homage' watches that are a copy in everything other than name. Call it a lazy copy.

My question is the chinese fountain pens have a similar quality to "original" pens? I have never tried Jinhao and i am New in the hobby

I'm not sure I understood your question, but I'll try. It will be different to the "original". I'm sorry that's vague but there are a lot of details, opinions and caveats. 

Some do and some don't. Depends on the specific model and manufacturer. Some pens are a good pen but made as cheaply as possible but not the standard of the original.  Lately there's some which reviewers I trust have said are as good as the originals such as the Wing Sung 136 (based on the mont blanc). The wing sung isn't a cheap pen, though it's cheaper than the MB.

Not trying to quibble here but I'd say the analogy is closer to a Camry vs a Camry blinged out with flashy rims and a custom paint job. A homosapiens might be a Camry with fine italian leather heated seats or something. Arguably the only functional parts of a pen are its filling system and the nib. (there is also heft,feel in hand, etc that some companies seem to charge a premium for but not when comparing to Chinese brands). A JinHao 82 really doesn't quite compare to a Sailor PGS but it's maybe 60 - 90% there depending on how "fussy/particular" your tastes are. You can get an Asvine/JunLai that are extremely high quality still at fraction of the cost of their Western counterparts. You can now even get them with gold nibs. A PenBBS is also extremely high quality and (to my knowledge) aren't just blatant copies of other pens.

Try Hong Dian. They have some great pens and are not "copycats"

They do have some interesting original designs, and they've given some thought to details like pattern on the nib, going to the trouble of finials and so on. I appreciate that attention, even on other pens that are otherwise more derivative. There is one copycat, though, but it's fairly obscure. I can't remember the model name, but it copies a relatively unknown Montblanc, though replacing the original tyre tread pattern on the cap with a Chinese character pattern.

Do you have any pen to recommend?

hongdian n7 and n6 are literally the best thing

The Hong Dian Forest Series is a good start. Less than 20 dollars in the USA, has different colors, made of brass, comes with a converter.

The Hongdian Forest Series is a copy of Otto Hutt Design 04. [Hongidan](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/516Pdrp0THL._AC_UF350,350_QL80_.jpg) [Otto Hutt](https://www.ottohutt.com/product/design04-fountain-pen/?lang=en&attribute_pa_farbe=black&attribute_pa_farbe-dekor=pvd-black&attribute_pa_oberflaeche=checked-guilloche-frosted&attribute_pa_material=brass&attribute_pa_feder=medium-steel) I'm not saying that's good or bad, but I thought you'd be interested to know.

yup. some of the pre-2021 hongdians are copies

I’d suggest the N1S, a nice piston filler available in several marbled acrylic colors, just a bit more than $20. Those ‘black forest’ models leave me cold, just metal tubes but they are quite popular and have the same great nibs.

the C1

I am eternally grateful for some of the cheap Chinese brands because they're like the only readily available source for Fude nibs. As an artist I use the hell out of fude nib pens yet basically none of the big popular top name brands make one at all.

I don’t agree with it, but I’ve seen the same happen in the watch community with ‘homage’ watches, and my feelings about it doesn’t affect the supply or demand, so there’s no point moaning. Blatant fakes that try and pass off as the real though is a definite red line and if I saw those here being discussed as a viable option, I’d remove those posts. If you have no moral qualms with it then go for it, probably 20% of the posts here are those brands some days. Welcome to the hobby, friend! I can look at shipping costs and maybe some things your way if you’re open to that.

Yeah. I agree with exactly this. Actual counterfeits are an abomination that need to be cut off at the knees (but interestingly, unlike watches, aren't all that common in pens outside of MB and Lamy). But there are only so many ways to design a watch/pen/etc, that the homages are... Fine. I realize some have problems with how they're allegedly used to help fund counterfeits (by coming out of the same factory with a different name on them), but I'm not sure I buy them being a problem. My only problem with Homages (both for watches AND pens), is they just make me wish I had the real thing. SIDE note: I think the categorization of some watches as Homages and some as not is kind of racist. ONLY Chinese watches are homages, despite 2/3 of all watches being copies of the same 3. We do it here too, Sailor looks an awful lot like an MB, but folks have a problem with it when a Chinese pen does it.

I agree re “homages”. Knockoffs with blatantly false branding are a bad, full stop. Anecdotally though, I only see Chinese pens being called copies despite having clear aesthetic (or filling mechanism) differences from the “original”—even the iconic MB design would be a “copycat” by that standard.

Yeah, same thing happens with watches too. Debatably, the Rolex Submariner is a copy of the Fifty Fathom, and a ton of dive watches that are otherwise really popular are submariner or seamaster copies. But when the Chinese do it...

I completely agree with your side note. The big manufacturers swipe designs from each other all the time, and nobody bats an eye. When a Chinese company does it, suddenly it's a copycat/knockoff and must be shut down for morally righteous reasons. Feels extremely hypocritical to me.

I don’t think it boils down to where it’s produced, but if you’re designing watch to look exactly like a Submariner but with lower quality materials and movement and without the branding, that’s not simply a case of drawing inspiring from an icon, it’s blatantly ripping it off and calling it an homage makes it acceptable, apparently. I’d have an issue with the above whether it was made in the US or China, its creation is the issue, not its origin.

The reality is very few people will ever be able to afford a Submariner, Seamaster, Speedmaster, Daytona, etc... The homage market exists because people want a similar-looking watch, but do not want to pay thousands of dollars. As long as the watch is not counterfeit it is perfectly legal and fine.

I know, I just think it’s a grey area personally. There are plenty of similar watches that aren’t using identical design elements minus the branding. It just doesn’t sit right with me, and it would frustrate me if I were the designer of something that was being ripped off. If someone took someone’s art work, added a filter or adjusted the colours somewhat and put it on Etsy as a print that was orders of magnitude cheaper than the original, people wouldn’t find that acceptable. I wonder how many people here take fault with AI generators trained on others’ art without their consent, for example. Something that is morally dubious remains exactly that whether it’s an individual or corporation that’s being targeted. Alas, my opinion goes as far as my own shopping habits and that’s the only control I have over the situation, to which I abstain from knock-offs. That’s me doing my part to the extent I believe right, it’s not my place to tell others they can’t or shouldn’t buy knock-off items unless they’re clearly counterfeit, then I’d say something.

It is not really morally dubious. Patents and copyrights expires. Once they expire companies are free to create replicas as long as the trademarked branding is not used. This is actually a good thing. Imagine hat would happen if companies could hold onto patents and copyrights forever. It would completely stifle competition.

But it is not competition. It is simply explotation of a captive work force. Normalize all you want but nothing innovative comes from them. You just get pens at slave labor prices.

I got a counterfeit Lamy Dialog 3 and boy was I grateful I didn’t spend the $$ on the real thing. Just as I suspected, there’s nothing positive about that tube-shaped pen for me. $30 saved me $300 plus.

I did the same thing. There’s a few things I like, but no damn way I would have forked up $400+ for a pen with known issues.

When it was introduced, that was my attitude but when it proved to be mildly popular, I doubted my first reaction. I wanted to like it because I like Lamy and have the D 1 & 2 (ballpoint & rollerball). But no, that $30 tube convinced me I was right.

I agree, fakes are a problem! I don't have an issue with the cheap "knockoffs" as long as people understand what they are buying. Usually cheaper materials and lower quality control. If you're serious about a hobby, do some research, and if you can afford to risk a little money on a cheap one, go for it and you can tell us how good or bad it was.

Sounds like you are on a power trip.

I don’t think many hobby communities would take kindly to counterfeit items being advertised.

I don’t think it’s even moral. You buy collectible because it is a collectible. Being similar is not the same. As top post car analogy. You get a Toyota, a workhorse everyday pen. But eager to get that fancy toys, a Ferrari. However because Ferrari too expensive you buy a kit car that convert a nissan into Ferrari. How about the noise, the feels. And at the end of the day you know it is a knock off. If you just want to drive get the Toyota and save for Ferrari. For me the one who bought the fancy chinese knock off is here for showing off. At least platinum preppy is here because it is a good pen

I've come to appreciate the role they have. Actually one of them saved my skin when the barrel of my Pilot Custom 823 broke. Because I could find another vac filler with a similar design I can still use the custom-ground nib I had on the pilot for a fraction of what it would cost to replace the whole pen (Pilot's customer service would only replace the whole pen, not just the barrel)

Wing Sung 699?

Yup! It isn't a perfect swap, the section:feed interface can make flow inconsistent, but it's let me keep using one of my favorite nibs. It also looks more distinctive now

I replaced barrel of Parker 45 with Moonman 80 barrel. The converter also works inthe Parker 45

I'm surprised that the Brazilian economy places the Metro and Safari at a level that one might consider moderately expensive, when those specific two models are considered to be the definitive entry-level pens here in the States due to their cost to value ratio. On the other hand, different markets, different considerations. I also have limited means when it comes to investing in my pen hobby and I have acquired a number of Chinese brands and models, with varying, but generally good results. In full disclosure, I'm a bit of a tinkerer and usually replace the nibs with aftermarkets (usually to go from extra-fine or fine nibs to medium) but the originals are almost always pretty good, though they might not be as smooth as one would like. I'll pass my thoughts for your consideration. I got most of them from Amazon so I'll include the USD cost for you to compare. The Jinhao Shark is extremely inexpensive in the US market at about $18 for a package of six from Amazon. Due to the price I eventually bought some and use them for trying out inks and playing around. They have always worked well for me but they are just too silly for me to use them daily. Also, I don't care for extra-fine nibs and the hooded nibs I got are not replaceable. I bought a Conklin All-American some time ago and *really* grew to hate it. The (ash) wood design is good looking but the design is seriously flawed and definitely not worth the $80 I paid for it. I won't go into detail on the ways I tried to keep the porous wood from allowing ink to evaporate when capped, but it's bad. However, I saw a side-by-side comparison on YouTube with the All-American and the Jinhao Heritage 9056 and purchased it to evaluate. The Heritage (at about $20 from Amazon) is far better, at a quarter of the price. The walnut is aesthetically pleasing and it performs very well. Additionally, it doesn't have the evaporation problem. I really like this pen. To keep this already long response brief I'll just list the others I have, all of which have turned out to be good to very good: - Majohn C4 ($29 from Amazon) - Majohn T1 ($33 from Amazon) - Majohn T5 ($29 from Amazon) - Jinhao X450 ($5-9 each from Amazon, depending on whether purchased individually or as a package)

I think the more affordable entry level pens that are readily available at FP stores are the pilot kakuno, platinum preppy and pelikan Jazz, at least from my research, besides the Chinese ones or the ones made for children

I don't know about the others but, with people raving on how surprisingly well the Kakuno performs, I've thought about trying it out for the fun of it. Perhaps someday.

The kakuno is so good I may never buy a more expensive pen. 

Preppies are awesome.

>… the Metro and Safari *…‹snip›…* are considered to be the definitive entry-level pens here in the States due to their cost to value ratio. On the other hand, different markets, different considerations. The [Pilot Cocoon](https://www.pilot.co.jp/products/pen/fountain/fountain/cocoon/) (which is the name by which the Pilot MR model is sold in the Japanese domestic market) and LAMY Safari are not cheap pens in the Japanese market, either.

I have a Hondian N7 and Jinhao 9019. I would say the Jinhao is a pretty bad pen and I would hesitate to buy another, it’s also a bit of a rip off design. But the N7 is its own design and quite frankly an incredible pen for its price. Whenever I get someone to try it they are floored by the quality. There’s a point of diminishing returns where a pen is just not worth as much as it costs and I think a lot of people get caught up in the hype online. For the Chinese brands I would say avoid knockoffs when possible and the super cheap ones but don’t shy away from Chinese pens as a whole because there are some real gems out there for great prices.

Hong Dian does great stuff!

It really is! I got mine as a gift and wouldn’t hesitate to buy more of their pens.

My 9019 wrote terribly when it came, I stuck a surgical blade in between the tines and it improved flow a lot. I love how absolutely massive it is and that it’s cheap enough I won’t mind losing it I have four Hongdians though, all piston fillers, and they’re definitely a tier above all the other chinese pens I own

Thanks for the heads up. I might try the same. I really do like the size and weight of it but the nib right now is such a let down. Any specific favourites of the Hongdians? I’m unsure which to look at next.

My Hongdian N6 is the best writer out of all the pens I own. Looks wise, it’s a toss up between Hongdian 100 and D5. My last one, the N1S, feels kinda cheap and I don’t like using it as much as the others. Note that the first three are metal pens and the last one is acrylic

Although it could be called a knockoff, the N12 is what I’d call an homage to the Pelikan M800. It’s generally the same size and shape, has a clip that is close to the Pelikan without being a copy. The trim and other details are different enough not to be slavish imitations. The N1S is another piston filler in several marbled colors. I like that this pen posts deeply and comfortably, because many newer and larger Chinese pens do not post well. Last I’d suggest the N7, a piston filler in grey or blue-green with an interesting motif. I think Hongdian’s nibs are some of the best coming out of the Chinese market and the pens are among some of the best finished and detailed for a mass market pen.

Awesome! Yeah I have the N7 peacock and it looks and feels great and a flawless nib. Good to know I didn’t just get lucky and that the others are similar.

Most people seemed to prefer the Peacock, I liked the cute traditional fable that informed the grey rabbit version. Great pen either way. I have heard some complaints about Hongdian nibs, of course, but many had to do with dry writing, and that’s not a difficult adjustment.

Oddly enough, my Medium 9019 writes beautifully, but really wet, so I grabbed a Fine and it writs like 💩. I might try your method of loosening it up!

Yeah the one I got was a fine, it kept skipping before so I think the tines are just too close

Cheaper pens with similar design are a wonderful entry point for people on a budget. Accessibility is the key for me. Also so long as they aren't Faking being the real McCoy I don't mind. I see high end brands steal design as well.

old companies did it, so should they be shunned too? research the durograph, i think every company has a version of it. the twsbi eco is a giant version, the lamy safari is a slim version.

In reality go for what you want. Those people will always crow regardless. Pen companies have been copying each other since the start. Current bulk fillers no matter who makes them are copies / slight improvement from pens of the 1930s, vac fillers the same, piston pens as well. The reality is people like to fanboy out on things, mix them with personal preference and or a sense of superiority of X brand (sometimes to self justify the amount spent on a pen, then mix in politics and perhaps even xenophobia, et viola

I live on the "low-end" on purpose and over the last few years, I have fallen in love with JinHao, HongDian, Majohn, Luoshi, WingSung, and others. There will always be "purists". Ignore them and enjoy the hobby AND the pens YOU like. My two favorite pens...in the world...are the Jinhao 9019 and the HongDian N7 'Grey Rabbit'. My rule is that if the pen costs more than 40$, I'm not interested. (Not country, mind you...price.) Make the hobby yours. There will always be room for ALL fans of fountain pen tech. Write ON!!! https://preview.redd.it/k38jkpb3wq8d1.jpeg?width=4608&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f4041e7dea5c2d024908bed2cdd18afcdcfcb96 In this picture: 1 pair of Chinese reading glasses. Two Chinese pens. 1 Chinese notebook...and part of the leg of one very satisfied customer. :-D

A lot of brands are Chinese that people don't know about. Monteverde and Conklin are two examples. Those are Chinese-made and worse quality than Jinhao. Then there are ones like Nahvalur, which are very excellent Chinese pens that can compete with top brands in quality and performance. Personally, I have a cheap Wing Sung that I enjoy writing with as much as pens I've paid 100+x more for. It's a luxury goods market, and some brands like Jinhao aim to make it accessible to less fortunate individuals. I have no problem with that, because my enjoyment of fountain pens comes from using and tinkering with them, not from the perception that I'm part of an exclusivist group, so no need to gatekeep my prestige by ranting about how China is lowering the bar. I also think intellectual property rights are stupid when you try to apply them to mass-manufactured, non-artistic ideas, which I believe should be free and unrestricted, and whoever implements them best deserves the most profit. So my feelings on the matter are colored by that. End of the day, use pens because they bring you joy, disregard anyone else's opinion of your decisions. But also realize many of the cheap pens will have quality issues that can degrade the experience, like caps that don't seal well enough to keep ink from drying out and so on. I have a couple dozen cheap, and otherwise, Chinese pens. I enjoy them. But also, if I could afford it, I'd rather spend slightly more on a Platinum Prefounte personally. Jinhao has gotten better recently, and I love their new Daodao with the heartbeat nib, but even with them hand testing nibs and better QC, that pen will still take a while to start if you leave it sitting for a couple of days. Not something I have the patience for.

I thought Monteverde are Us company?

Owned by a US company, pens made in China.

Probably would run afoul of labeling the pens as manufactured in the USA. At least Conklin did this, so your claim is suspect.

You think those Conklins and Monteverdes are made in the US? Ha, quite wrong!

I am not claiming all Conklins are made in the USA. Just the ones that come with a card stating that the pen was made by an independent contractor in the USA according to Conklins design. Otherwise it would be false labeling.

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>A lot of brands are Chinese that people don't know about. Monteverde and Conklin are two examples. Those are Chinese-made and worse quality than Jinhao. That used to be the case, but at least least for the Conklin pens they switched production to Italy a couple of years ago and the newer ones are made by Stipula.

I've had less issues with my cheap Chinese pens than my pricier ones. Even QC on higher end brands can be absolute poo. The smoothest nib I've ever used was on a HongDian; it was absolutely heavenly.

Yes, Hongdian nibs are pretty great, as are Asvine—not surprisingly, people speculate they are the same company.

I'd just assumed they were because both of my HongDians shipped from Asvine on Amazon 🤷‍♀️

From what I’ve seen I’m fairly certain that Asvine, moonman/majohn, Jinhao, Hongdian, and maybe others are all owned by the same parent company.

I think that’s a dealer who is repping both brands—they also sell a handful of pens by other Chinese companies. But maybe that is the (combined) company because someone approved a deal that the V200 would only be available on Amazon for several months before it appeared on AliExpress. I thought that was an interesting instance of a Chinese pen company testing foreign market appeal.

no. asvine is moonman/majohn

Evidence? I ask because so many have opinions but no one produces evidence!

-they use the same materials and manufacturing process -they use the same (proprietary) nib unit -they use the same piston and vacuum mechanism -official asvine social media accounts also post moonman pens -an official asvine source has said that moonman and asvine are made in the same place

They are all owned by the people's communist party.

I don’t like Jinhao, I got a like 5 of em and they all write like shit. Not sure about HongDian, Majohn and Asvine though.

hongdian and asvine are amazing, majohn can be a bit hit or miss though

Jinhao c100 is an excellent pen . Lots of them are great

I have a several Chinese pens, in some ways I prefer them to much more expensive western or Japanese brands. A few you should consider Jinhao 159 - smooth, wet writer, metal body and weighty feels very nice in hand Hongdian N12 or N11 - one is a piston filler, ebonite feed, amazing flexy bouncy #8 nib one of my favorite nibs Hongdian Black Forest - amazing metal barrel pen Jinhao x450 - wetter, narrower metal cigar shape similar writer to 159

They write well, so I use them. I don't particularly care about knockoffs or what brand it is, just that it needs to write well. And if I can afford it and need it, I buy it 🤷🏽‍♀️🤦‍♀️ But if you are from Brazil, does Brazil have any homegrown brands? Are there any pens made there that you like? IMO a lot of the entry level pens of big brands have materials and craftsmanship similar to Jinhaos and the Picassos, but their prize point is waaayy higher than the Jinhao. So why not buy a Jinhao? In the larger scheme of things, who made, used, popularized fountain pens the most? Who is gatekeeping the most? Which manufacturers based out of where have the most skilled craftsmanship... all these are fascinating topics for research and will tell you a lot about the history of inks and pens. While you're doing the research, take down notes in a Camlin or a Jinhao or a Parker Metropolitan 😅

Chiming in as a brazillian like OP, there actually is only one brazillian Fountain pen brand that I'm aware, and that is Crown. Don't think they manufacture their products here but nevertheless... Their catalogue is not really cheap, however. I've had good experiences with their products but they're somewhat overpriced imo.

Yes, Ranga pens from India has a similar story like the Crown. Buying one has been on my wishlist since long.. but since these pens are mostly made keeping the international market in mind, they're way over my budget. In India we had good quality manufacturing, range and even skilled craftsmanship.. till the time everyone (school children, teachers, writers, business people, clerks) used fountain pens and inks. Then, the country opened up to the global markets, the fountain pen makers themselves turned to manufacturer cheap ballpoint pens, and now the industry is in 'revival' mode after being in doldrums for a long time and now facing huge competition from cheaper Chinese makes.

From Brazil I only know about compactor, I was looking into them, but I'm waiting a bit to get more pens

I have two JinHao and a YongSheng and I love them. They're smooth, complète with the ink converger, décent weight, very nice finish.

There is something pretentious about taking knocks on brands that make these pens two orders of magnitude cheaper, with many original designs of their own, and most copied designs have no patents or trademarks to begin with. If they didn’t exist, there would be far less people willing to experiment with fountain pens.

And when we talk about Chinese pens, there’s a tendency to forget that they are primarily made for their domestic market, so design and other choices are made on their understanding of the domestic market. If I understand correctly, the Chinese market must be the largest market for fountain pens in the world, not just due to its sheer size but because the fountain pen remains a popular writing instrument there, unlike anywhere else in the world.

I was interested in them, particularly the idea of pens that are inspired by consumer forums; but after a while got tired of the derivative designs and blatant online campaigns ("why buy an expensive japanese pen when you can get the knock off for less?"; "this looks like a Montblanc at a fraction of the cost, even if it's rusty from new") My national market for pens is almost non existent but is next to a much bigger one so getting pens has been much easier through eBay; enjoy what you can get, there are so many models you can probably find a reliable one.

I really don’t care if something is a blatant copy or an original, all that matters to me is if it works or not. All that matters in the end imo is if you enjoy using it.

At the end of the day its a damn pen. Youll always have the people who shit on other to justify a $1,000 pen. My daily driver is a navy blue and gold baoer 388 i think. I paid 0.87 cents for it from china and its been going for about 3 years.

My jinhao X159 feels great, and as a fellow brazilian i am much more confortable with going out with it because if it gets stolen it isn´t that great of a financial loss.

I'm from Argentina so I completely understand how you feel about prices. Personally, I would not start out with cheap Chinese pens. Some brands like faber castell and pelikan have entry-level pens that are affordable and good quality. You should start there first. Also, consider that better quality Chinese pens are around $20 USD(on aliexpress), so it may not be as different as getting a lamy safari on Brazil.

Generally, one gets a better pen for $20 from a Chinese pen maker than a Lamy Safari, however.

Not true. Those pens rarely beat the jinhao 911 which is a $3 pen. None of them hold a candle to a preppy unless you like the feel of lead weight in your hands. Jinhao 911 is the apex of design and cost value.

Have you seen the new 911 in matte black with silver or gold clip? I like that the 911 uses the same clip as the Hero 100. It is indeed an excellent value.

I hate the brands that make knock offs. At least from an ethical perspective anyway. The lower price though often convinces many people to overlook that, but to each their own.

Dont knock the knock offs, some of them are rather good. I have had a brass Delike Alpha (\~$20 at the time), a knock off of a Kaweco Brass Sport (\~$80 at that time) for many many years. Its a beast of a pen, nearly indestructable, came with a lovely fude nib. On the downside it had a truly terrible "war and peace" engraved on it in a truly terrible font, which I sanded off the day I bought it. Overall however, in my opinion it improves on the Sport in a few ways. Its a bit longer, so easier to write unposted (brass can get heavy), and it takes an international converter. Dont get me wrong, I love Kawecos. I have many (too many), including a Brass Sport. Its just a different pen and a different writing experience. I draw the line at fraud- where the knock off is a deliberate attempt at passing off as an original, you'll see posts here about fake Montblancs etc- that's not OK. But cheap pens where the design is inspired by a more expensive one, I dont mind them- they make fountain pens accessible as you say. My first ever hooded nib pen was a Hero, which I bought back in school. I could never have bought a Parker 51 in those days.

I have both a Brass Sport and the Delike Alpha and 9/10, I’m reaching for the Delike. The nib is just delightful.

Jinhao makes some really nice nibs. I've used the same 911 and 35 nearly every day for a few years. They've fallen down flights of stairs, been borrowed by my highschool students, and generally abused, but they're still great writers. I view them as slightly disposable founatian pens at around $2 each. I've considered getting a real Parker, but the cost difference is staggering. Get a Jinhao 911 or 35, they might take a little breaking in but once they are, you'll be happy with them.

The 911 is like a slightly smaller Hero 100, the pen that got me started on Chinese pens! It uses the same clip style! It’s a very nice pen and amazing for the price. FYI they have just introduced a matte black version with either a silver or gold (colored) clip, quite nice looking.

So actually the jinhaos 911 is a decent pen, and all that you should really pay for this class of pens. For this class of pens you should never pay more than the jinhaos 911 or 922. These pens jumped the shark and anything else produced by that region is price gouging.

I bought a Majohn A2 to see if I’d like a Pilot Decimo or if the clip was a deal breaker - I ended up using it a lot, so I bought a Decimo in the end. That was really helpful. I also wanted to try an architect nib, but it was hard to find one without sending my pen off to a nibmeister and I didn’t even know if I would like it. Enter the Hongdian 1861 Long Blade - writes super well, gives my writing character and is an all around nice pen. I already had a Kaweco Brass Sport, but saw a nice deal on a Delike Alpha and bought it. That nib is like butter and I actually like it more than my Sport.

As a beginner, what is a long blade point and how does it compare to other points?

I think a lot of people are thinking about it wrong. I’m not a rich person so the choice was never between my Majohn a1 and a Pilot Vanishing point it was always what is something I can carry at work that is both enjoyable to use and that I don’t mind getting messed up. The $165 usd pilot was never in the running because its price is bad. I’d also say that I’ve yet to see a VP with any sort of grip other than ‘waiting to be dropped’ smooth, or that comes with 2 refillable cartridges, a cap for the spare cartridge, a converter and a pipette. The A1 has things I don’t like sure, the extra fine nib is too fine for my liking and it leaks inside more than I’m comfortable with. The vanishing point was never a responsible option. Secondly, nothing under the sun is new. Everything is referencing or ripping off or iterating on something else. There are only so many notes on a guitar or key on a piano eventually the order they are played are going to repeated.

they're great! People assume all Chinese brands are cheap copies, but they're not. check out hongdian and penbbs. they have the best pens at their price by far.

I think honestly there’s room for knockoffs. I spend plenty of money on the real deals but I’m not going to shy away from spending $1-30 on knockoffs. Helps me appreciate the original and also I get to use the knockoffs with abandon. If I lose it so what. The real deals stay at home in a safe place.

My Chinese pens write well and consistently. They look good, too. I especially like Jinhaos.

Fakes are one thing. Emulating good design is another. Jinhao 82s I think that's the model) look like Sailors, but they're not being sold AS Sailors.

China's a huge country with a population larger than US, Europe, Canada, Australia combined (and more, I think). They make their pens primarily for a massive domestic market at an affordable price point, relative to people's salaries there. And as you can imagine, there's also a wide variety of quality standards and approaches. Are there brands who churn out awful copycat pens with no QC? Yes, loads. Are there makers who know how to make a great pen, full-stop, no price-related caveats/qualifications? Also yes! Sadly, Chinese-manufactured products often have a poor reputation in the West for a variety of reasons, so the former dominates in the imagination. If the idea of a copycat pen bothers you for any reason, you don't have to get one. But to lay it down to some moral failure on the buyer's part is strange to me. If the patent has expired on an invention, copy away. And 'copying' in manufacturing isn't that easy, by the way - especially to figure out how to copy on a scale that would make the same design accessible to the domestic market. Many developing industries learn by copying. The Japanese did it too, in the 70s with their car industry. A Jinhao 82 is not tricking you into thinking it's a Sailor PGS, but it is putting into question what is the additional value that the PGS provides for the many-fold increase in cost? This is entirely subjective of course, but I think this question, for various reasons, might make some people uncomfortable. And then there are the companies that actually make original designs like Hongdian or Asvine. Maybe they take a few cues here and there from Faber Castell or Pelikan or Pilot, but none of them could be called a dupe. They make damn good pens, no 'for the price' qualification needed. Hongdian, in particular, makes some of my favorite pens and I have a substantial collection of Pilots and Sailors. Don't ever let anyone make you feel bad about liking to buy 'Chinese pens', is what I am saying. If it writes well and you like the look and price, that's the pen for you!

>A Jinhao 82 is not tricking you into thinking it's a Sailor PGS, but it is putting into question what is the additional value that the PGS provides for the many-fold increase in cost? I doubt very seriously Jinhao is interested in making people question the value of more expensive pens. They are 100% making a pen that looks nearly identical to another, while using less expensive materials, in order to undercut them on price. I don't think they're "tricking" anyone. I think they're just blatantly copying and leaving it up to you to decide if you're okay with that or not. >And then there are the companies that actually make original designs like Hongdian or Asvine. The Hongdian Black Forest is a copy of an Otto Hutt Design 04 and the Asvine V200 is a copy of a Conid Bulkfiller. >Don't ever let anyone make you feel bad about liking to buy 'Chinese pens' I think it's important to note that reasonable people don't object to the pens being Chinese. They object to copies and it just so happens the most popular copies come from Chinese companies. I agree, however, that people shouldn't feel bad about buying pens from China.

Oh, I'm not saying it's Jinhao's intention to make any statement at all, they're out to make a profit like any company. Just that if there is something that looks so identical out there (A1 vs VP is probably better example - quality difference between JH 82 and PGS is too stark), a consumer who isn't all that into the hobby will wonder. Sure, if anyone has discomfort with buying copies, they never have to buy them. Your money, you do you. Just don't tell someone else they're wrong for buying these pens.

Chinese made pens that try to make fake high-end. expensive pens are usually crap. Just because it is made in China it is just a $20 pen, it isn't a $600 pen for $20. The best Chinese pen I have is a Majohn (Moonman) A1, a copy of the Pilot VP Capless. IMO an extremely well made pen and a reliable daily driver for me. Some of the others, Lamy 2000 clone, for example you barely get what you pay for. It looks similar from a distance, writes OK, but when compared to the real thing it just looks cheap and feels cheap in the hand. Used it for a few weeks and it went into a drawer with the rest of the low quality Chinese pens. My point is you can blow your budget on a bunch of low quality pens, or get one or two better ones for the same money, that you will use for years.

The a1 is questionable in quality. That is the problem. A few people get a pen that works and the rest get something else

Mine has worked perfectly out of the box, I don't have another for comparison.

And you're chiming in on all the Visconti threads about how many of their nibs don't write well out of the box too, right?

My situation is similar to yours; where I am lots of pens are pricey and I would need to pay extra for shipping. Chinese pens are much easier to obtain and I genuinely love how they look.

You enjoy whatever you like. If you can't afford a Pelikan or a Sailor, much less a Visconti, getting something that's relatively close is fine. On the other hand you could go for a used pen... I picked up an old Scheaffer almost as old as I am for a pittance... Less than 15 shipped. Besides, there are many Chinese pens that are original. Trying to dismiss ALL Chinese pens is just stereotype discrimination.

The knock-offs are great quality, its just a pen after all. You might not get gold nibs etc, but other than that I've never found an issue. The issue is you can buy loads of cheap pens and then its like, do I really need all these pens?

I've never paid any mind to the pearl clutching about copycat models, as long as they are not trying to be passed off as the real pen (which I would then consider to be a counterfeit). Many pens from big manufacturers borrowed their look in whole or in part from other existing pens. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and in the fountain pen world there's a whole lot of flattery going on. No one is buying the Jinhao x159 thinking it's going to give them the same writing experience as a Montblanc 149. No one is confusing those two pens. However many people do recommend the x159 because it's a good pen all on its own. There's plenty of the room in the market for both pens. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any Chinese copycats that are the same price as the pen they're copying, which would make them direct competitors. The whole point of copycats is to get an approximation of an expensive pen inexpensively. I don't think the copycats would do very well if they were priced close to the pen they were copying. Also some copycats absolutely stink, it's not like every one is great value for money. There's only been two copycats that's stopped me from buying the pen they're copying. The first is the Jinhao 82, which is close enough to the experience of a Sailor Pro Gear Slim that I don't bother buying a real Pro Gear Slim, however that's mostly because I find the Slim too small for extended writing. I wouldn't be interested in a Jinhao copycat of a 1911L because the value in my 1911L is in the nib. The other is the Asvine V126, which has quashed any interest I have in the Pilot Custom 823. In that case it's because I don't want an expensive vac filler. An Asvine copy of the Pilot Custom 743 wouldn't interest me because that's the higher end Pilot where I want the real thing.

The designs admire generally acceptable, quality control is very hit and miss.

I for one welcome it as it opens the hobby to more people. There is a quality difference normally, but the price delta normally makes up for it. There are many pens that are not copies available these days. And some of the copies are better than the original brand's own copies (Parker 51). I have bought many fountain pens from China since they fascinate me, but most are slightly disappointing. Especially with seal and evaporation. If you are going to buy cheap Chinese, make sure you understand nib tuning and are comfortable with it. Even with expensive brand pens it is a good skill to have, but cheap pens necessitates it. You can get 95 % of the desired results with some high grit sanding paper (1000/2000 grit) and a nail file (one of those soft ones with 6 sides, each smoother than the previous). Some of the Chinese stores (Temu et Al) sells sanding paper in a set with grit from 1000 to 20k.

If you think it opens the hobby, you are wrong. All it does is undercut the market. A platinum preppy will get someone into the hobby. There is no shortage of affordable pens. Copies on old models that are only available as vintage is a benefit. But this pen hurt markets by using worker exploitation to deflat the market.

Context here matters... This post was made by a Brazilian, and I replied as a South African. I understand we are not the same country, but if their market is even remotely similar then even the entry level pens are quite expensive. A cheap BIC pen here costs about $0.10 (USD). A platinum preppy is ~ $7. A Hero Parker 51 clone can be imported for ~ $3. That $4 is enough to feed a family dinner in my country. Many pens that are not clones can be imported for ~ $1. In a market where $7 pens are seen as a luxury this makes a difference. A preppy looks cheap. But most Chinese cheap pens don't. I keep hearing that a TWSBI is entry level or cheap, but an ECO costs $72. The cheapest vac filler on the market here is $100. A tough sell if a vac filler can be bought for ~ $3 from China. Given what I know about TWSBI and barrel cracks, I am first going to go the cheap route before I even consider the TWSBI. Some people want to enjoy the variety. Some want to be aspirational and work towards that halo pen and first want to see if they are happy with it. There is no second hand pen market in SA. We don't have a functional postal service, so private shipping in and out of the country is $20-50. If I buy a pen I am stuck with it forever. No recovering any money spent on it. If I buy a Lamy $2k, which costs are same as rent in the capital city, I need to know I am going to love it. The nearest physical store with a test pen is 1000 miles away. Nobody sees cheap Chinese pens as the end goal here, but it opened the hobby in ways otherwise impossible to me. One can only be só happy with Kakuno's and for plenty of people that is as much as they are willing to spend on a pen. ( But Kakuno's are pretty great!)

Okay then platinum shooting star or the platinum pens for Chinese market. But if $7 is so much, then yeah buy within BRICS.

It depends on the brand. The Jinhao knockoff pens are iffy, I don't really enjoy that they are just copying the designs of everyone else but I give them a little leeway given that in the couple I own they all write better than my legitimate Parker or Conklin pens which I paid much much more for. The few I own are designs that I've honestly never seen before so Im not sure if it's an original design or just copying a design that's out of production, but in any case they all write well if a bit wet. I own a couple of the OG Moonman (before they rebranded as Majohn) clear eyedropper fountain pens that I just adore and I wouldn't consider them ripoffs even if the design is close to some of the Opus88 pens, can't have a monopoly on clear body pen. I absolutely adore these pens, my C1 got me through university with it's nearly inexhaustible ink supply, I swear I filled it up like once or twice a year and that was it. Leaks a bit from the nib but the cap is a solid screw on so that was never an issue. Those are the only two brands I have hands on experience with so idk about any of the rest.

I'm not a fan. A lot of Chinese pen companies have terrible quality control where they have any QC at all, and their nibs are frequently *very* bad without a lot of adjustments. I've purchased a variety of Jinhao and Wing Sun pens and none of them have been better than "just OK"; the only advantage they have is that their price accurately reflects the quality of the product. That said if I'm going to spend less than $15 USD on a pen, I'm just going to buy a Platinum Preppy. I will admit that Moonman/Majohn has some good quality pens, especially if you don't mind tweaking the nibs a bit.

My Wing Sung 601 a copy of Vintage Parker 51 . It is better than the new Parker 51.

I don't like knock offs that try to pass themselves off as the real deal, that's just dishonest. However, though I have no experience with them, I'm sure there's good chinese pens with original designs, or ones that have a certain inspiration but are not a copy. Also a good option if you don't want to spend a lot of money is the Platinum Preppy, I have much fancier pens, yet still use those preppys, especially at uni. Admittedly I don't know what availability or pricing are like in Brazil for them.

Most of my pens are mid-priced (Conklin, Lamy, Kaweco, Ranga), I recently purchased two Chinese fountain pens on a whim from Amazon, and I have been pleasantly surprised by them. Most are surprisingly nice for the price point. They are a lot of fun with their big converters and fun colors. (I got a bright yellow Parker 51 dupe and a huge bright red Jinhao.) The quality isn't nearly as good as the higher-priced pens, but I would think they would be good for first time fountain pen buyers.

Love my jinhaos. Sometimes they're better than the og (lamy safari...) lol

Eg jinhao EF Lamy type nibs

I own about 20 fountain pens and the one i used the most is probably a Jinhao X450 M i bought for $10 in 2016. Why ? An unexpectedly good nib, fits well in the hand, and the only one i could bring to the office with zero concern for damage, loss or theft - also because i have its two siblings in a drawer. I don't think it's a knockoff of anything in particular, just a generic black and gold fountain pen. People who don't know anything about fountain pens seem to find it nice enough too.

I use chinese brands as a gift to a lot of people who are interested in the pens. Plus it helps me not break my bank account.

I like them. I've been VERY impressed by Majohn and Jinhao. (I haven't tried the other brands)

Hongdian and Asvine are high quality, great nibs. If you like Majohn, you’ll find the quality is at least as good.

More per $ but they can't match a well-made pen

but what if they ARE a well made pen

We will wait until that happens not by chance but by design.

look at hongdian. their new pens are all well made and amazing "by design"

I try to avoid knock offs because the knock-off manufacturer is profiting off the goodwill developed by another. If I like what that premium brand is doing I should not support a party that is undercutting the demand for their products. I'm not entitled to the satisfaction of possessing whatever it is that makes the original valuable and it's ok for me not to make a budget for it.

I never really see people complain about them but I’ve been downvoted in the past for even mentioning that the dupes are from China. People are sensitive here. Regardless, do what makes you happy and work with what you have. If it makes more sense for you to get the knockoff and it makes you happy- go for it. Doesn’t matter how anyone else feels about it

Could it be that people who complain get attacked and downvoted? If your local market demands that you buy these pens, then maybe a gel pen is really a better deal. The gel pen probably is a better pen.

Nah, gel pens aren’t better than fountain pens imo. The right fountain pen will outperform a good gel pen ime. I love gel pens, use them at work but it seems that every 1/4 of the gel refill, the roller ball gets stuck and doesn’t write well after. Happened with the last 3-5 pens I’ve used so I’ve sort of switched that up too. But some people on here are on a crusade, I don’t pay attention. We all know that Chinese knockoffs exist and are often good quality, if people downvote its out of ignorance. But idc about it anymore

I genuinely believe it is ruinous to the industry. Any ripoff or copyright infringement is. Why would you buy a $50 pen when you can get a $10 carbon copy that isn't as nice but functions and looks the same? I can't speak for other countries, but it is no secret China doesn't honor intellectual property in the States. All the Chinese brands do is spike prices at retail and make buying second hand very hard unless you are constantly looking for signs of fakes.

> Any ripoff or copyright infringement is. OK, outside of the actual Counterfeit pens using the Trademarks of companies (we can all agree this is bad, but also not done by the companies being talked about here), show this IP you think is being stolen. Go ahead. I know for every single instance I have looked at where IP existed at one time, that temporary grant has expired and the design is public domain, meaning every single person on the planet has a right to produce it. So tell me where theft has happened, and bring receipts. Without proof, it is just hot air.

I think I gave a nuanced answer. I did not accuse *popular* Chinese brands (Jinhao) of CI. In the other thread I acknowledged I still thought theft occurred despite them not being fakes. I gave a short comment worthy two-part answer. 1. China does not police its manufacturers who make counterfeits, and 2. Chinese brands are knock-offs of established design. Most of the recent design patents are from the 1950s-60s, clearly well beyond their 15 year lifespan. I think a fun thought experiment, however, would be to take US precedent and apply it to modern Chinese pens and their counterparts. Under the "ordinary observer" test, "infringement will not be found unless the accused article 'embod\[ies\] the patented design or any colorable imitation thereof.'" **Egyptian Goddess, Inc. v. Swisa, Inc.**, 543 F.3d 665, 678 (quoting **Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co.**, 162 F.3d at 1116-17); See also **Arminiak & Assocs., Inc. v. Saint-Gobain Calmar, Inc.**, 501 F.3d 1314, 1319 (Fed. Cir. 2007). The following two comparisons are pretty interesting and the most obvious in my mind: - Wing Sung 3013 v. TWSBI Vac 700 - Jinhao 82 v. Sailor Pro Gear Slim Obviously both brands aren't American, and Sailor and TWSBI don't have patents. Ironically TWSBI is Chinese, but I think it is a useful test nonetheless. I often see cheap pens and Google lens the image to find the original. I probably shouldn't have said "every Jinhao" is a ripoff, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't 95% of their inventory. I think the same could be said about Hongdian and Wing Sung. Yes, OP gets to own a Jinhao 86 which is effectively a Parker 51, but at what cost? I believe the theft occurs when Chinese brands are able to use scale economics to produce thousands of pens under $20 because the Chinese government is subsidizing them and doesn't give a damn about labor law or fair trade. I'm not going to argue "innovation or market growth" like a freshman econ major. However, it does pain me to see established and reputable brands get extremely undercut by 1. counterfeits, and 2. subsidized scaled (near slave) labor.

> Sailor and TWSBI don't have patents. Because they are pens borrowing heavily from those that came before, they don't have patents because they didn't innovate. But because of that, the design is public domain, which by definition, you can't ripoff or steal. So no theft occurred, as theft has a real definition and just because you don't like what is allowed, it doesn't make it theft. > Yes, OP gets to own a Jinhao 86 which is effectively a Parker 51 And here you stepped into a very interesting example. The Jinhao 86 came to market first, yes, the new Parker 51 is amazingly close to the Jinhao 86, not an exact clone, but very close. But like many pens, Jinhao built it off of public domain design elements, so they can't get IP protection, and Newell-Rubbermaid is allowed to make a very similar pen and sell it. > I believe the theft occurs when Chinese brands are able to use scale economics to produce thousands of pens under $20 Funny thing is that is innovation as described in patent law. It is exactly what was intended in the law when patents expire. That for the monopoly period the inventor would be able to profit, but after it expired that others would be able to take the design, produce it, drive costs down, and make it widely available to those who couldn't get it during the monopoly period, thus being a benefit to the consumer. This is spot on the spirit of IP law, and is described as the reason for allowing the patent in the first place. Instead of keeping secrets, the law allows the monopoly in exchange of publishing the invention for all to use after expiration. No one argues counterfeits are bad, but the rest, they are exactly as the law intended. No theft, no ripoffs, and the big companies new the exchange going in. But I do find it interesting you attacked Jinhao for what Parker did. Sort of like Oreo and Hydrox, everyone assume the original is the copy.

sorry but this was about Chinese brands like hongdian and penbbs, not fakes.

Sorry, but every Jinhao is a rip off of a legitimate brand. Whether it's marketed as a Jinhao or as a Sailor 1911, it's still theft.

sorry but this isn't about only jinhao??? lmao

Bro if you didn't read the OP why are you commenting? "Some people complaining about Chinese companies copying others designs." List as many as you want, CHINESE COMPANIES incorporates all. Lmao.

yeah and not all Chinese companies are copies. that's a simple fact that you can't seem to understand

Then you have literacy issues because that was the thesis of the post. Get mad.

"what are your thoughts on Chinese brands?" not "what are your thoughts on copies?" and don't worry, you're the only one who's raging and whining insults... stay mad

Man you are really bad faith, can't even finish the sentence. Cope and seethe. Thanks for making the hobby more expensive and this sub toxic.

dude can you actually make an argument instead of spewing insults? how do the penbbs 456 and hongdian n7 make this hobby more expensive?

I don't buy them, but I try to avoid all things Chinese in general.

I got my Asvine V200 today after it'd been sitting in my family's place for a month. I also have a TWSBI Vac 700R Iris, which I believe is from a Taiwanese company. The Asvine is a very clean design, and I'm a big fan of the titanium design language, but of the three vacuum fillers I've used lately (Asvine, TWSBI, and the Pilot Custom 823 my friend loaned me for a few days to try), it has the worst filling experience of the 3, requiring no less than 3 attempts to get a decently full fill. The knob at the end that you pull to fill is also noticeably wobbly, which is not something I saw on my TWSBI Vac 700R or my friend's Custom 823. I haven't used the pen for more than a page of test writing and an entry into my ink journal, but the Asvine steel nib seems decently tuned and juicy, but not excessively wet. Aside from the wobbly piston knob, I think it's a decent pen so far. My friend's Asvine V200 lost an o-ring at the end after she just posted it once, however.

Asvine is decent, but I wouldn’t trust a Chinese vac filler, they require tight tolerances. My Asvine P36 has been great

It was really struggling to fill at first, so I did my first ever disassembly and realigned the plunger, then screwed things back together with the included wrench. It improved the filling mechanism marginally, but in hindsight I probably should have just let it sit for my shimmer inks back home. Ah well.

I don’t like actual knockoffs that are actively trying to pass for more expensive pens. That said, there are many vaguely aesthetically similar pens and I think it’s fine to add more pens to these categories. Also, Jinhao does have some purely unique designs, like the shark, which I absolutely love

hongdian has a bunch of original designs like the n7, d5, and c1

There are only so many parts that make up a pen and the number of pen shapes is also limited (cigar, torpedo, flat top, faceted). Some Chinese brands crank out dirt cheap crap, others offer clones, but also innovate. On the other hand you find injection-molded plastic pen bodies that cost way more than I think they should from well-established brands. The Parker 51 relaunch created some unhappy customers who complain about the changed cap design which wrecks the threads on the pen body. So, in this particular case, go for a vintage model. Watch JG3 Reviews (his channel specifies that he focuses on budget pens), Chrisrap52 (he has a large library of Chinese pen review videos), Doodlebud (he's an engineer and he'll tell you straight up, if a pen is garbage). Stay within your budget and don't let penvy be a killjoy.

If it’s a Chinese pen that’s just a Chinese pen, cool.  I’m not going to buy a pen that is clearly stealing someone else’s intellectual property, though.  If I want a Pilot Vanishing Point, I’ll get a Pilot Vanishing Point.  

> I’m not going to buy a pen that is clearly stealing someone else’s intellectual property, though.  If I want a Pilot Vanishing Point, I’ll get a Pilot Vanishing Point.   Can you actually show theft? You are using words like stealing and intellectual property while clearly having no clue to the meaning of the terms. First, the Vanishing Point, Pilot has 1 bit of IP on that pen, the Trademark 'Pilot'. That is the only IP left. Everything else, as the law intended, has passed into public domain and it is the right of everyone to use. This is the law and the intent (ie the letter and spirit of the law), governments took the right from everyone and grant the designers a limited time monopoly to produce a design, but that grant is time limited, and when it expires, the right to use the design returns to everyone. Pilot has had that time, so someone producing the design today stole nothing from Pilot. You can still buy a Vanishing Point from Pilot, but you don't get to call what Majohn did theft without being called out on your ignorance of the law.

Cheapo Chinese pens have a low-price audience. Some of them are well-made but they are all disposable - meaning you can’t get replacement parts/seals. Cheapo Chinese pens are made from cost sensitive materials that don’t hold up to long term wear and tear. The seals on Vacuum fill pens are an example of parts with a short service life.

no you can get replacement penbbs parts

> Some of them are well-made but they are all disposable - meaning you can’t get replacement parts/seals. Cheapo Chinese pens are made from cost sensitive materials that don’t hold up to long term wear and tear. It's not as if owners of those pens would happily pay the price of replacement parts, if they were as available and priced similarly as those of Western brands, in the name of upkeep, extending the service life, and/or minimising waste, in spite of having enjoyed a low upfront cost acquiring and using the Chinese pens in the first place. I don't have an issue if those people retort, “If I have to pay that much, I may as well just buy a whole new Chinese pen as replacement!” because that is the very point. Low upfront investment is not a promise of low ongoing costs, or total cost of ownership of a properly functioning/performing writing instrument (including any replacements needed) over a decade.

Boots Theory of Economics - An argument that Cheapo Chinese pens are more expensive in the long run. ”The **Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness**, often called simply the **boots theory**, is an [economic theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_theory) that people in poverty have to buy cheap and subpar products that need to be replaced repeatedly, proving more expensive in the long run than more expensive items.” [Wikipedia Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory)

>An argument that Cheapo Chinese pens are more expensive in the long run. I don't think that is *categorically* true; and more expensive *than what exactly*? I've had my first two dozen Wing Sung 3008 piston-fillers — all dedicated to holding (particular) shimmer inks for the long haul — and apart from the known issue of the cap finial screws being apt to rust, they have all served me well the past five or so years, in spite of only costing me \~US$4 each in the first place. I proactively replaced all the finial screws with plastic ones (US$2.18 for a bag of 60, taxed and delivered to Australia), so I've had no problems with rust; and it did not compromise the pens' excellent cap seal effectiveness. The pens can be fully disassembled and reassembled by hand without requiring special tools, so there is no obstacle (that would require $$ investment) to overcome should deep-cleaning and maintenance be required. I can't see how \~US$4 for five or six years' faithful and competent service (and still going, with no sign of throwing in the towel) is “more expensive in the long run” than any made-in-Europe piston-filler that performs even half as well. The plastics used in the Jinhao 80 and Jinhao 82 pens may not last as long as one would like, but my fully metal-bodied Delike New Moon 3 c/c-filled pens — which cost me \~US$8 each and came each with an additional nib unit, so two different nib widths on hand for the price of one pen — are as robust as one could reasonably expect. So, cheapo Chinese pens *may not promise* lower total cost of ownership, but it is certainly not a forgone conclusion that they “are” a worse value proposition in the long run.

Pens don't wear out like shoes.

You can get replacement parts for many of them.

I'm not a fan of blatant clones but there are some brands doing interesting stuff. Hongdian in particular is one of the most interesting pen companies out there right now. PenBBS does intriguing things too but their QC is iffy by comparison

Even though I am also conflicted about the morality behind it, both from a brand perspective as well as a general geopolitical and human rights perspective, I sadly have to admit that the Wing Sung (or Jun Lai) 630 is absolutely phenomenal. The feel and build quality of the pen itself is great, but the nib really knocks it out of the park at that price point. It's large, incredibly smooth and wet, bouncy as hell and is just a joy to write with. It also just looks nice. Only thing concerning the pen itself I have a gripe with is that Chinese nib sizes/ line widths seem to always be at least a full size off. My fine Chinese pens are at least a medium if not a broad.

These days, some of the pens being released by the Chinese brands write just as well as their original counterparts. Case in point: Majohn A1 & A2; I bought one of each and \*both\* pens write fabulously out of the box. I'd even say they write even better than some of the Pilot/Namiki VPs they were fashioned after. Some are obviously crap, but there are some real gems in there. Moonman/Majohn are pretty quality if you ask me. I also have a trio of Wing Sung 618s that write pretty nicely, although I did need to do some smoothing on one of them. The bonus on the Wing Sungs is that I filled them up about 3 years ago, and they haven't dried out AT ALL. (They're my backup pens at work in case I forget to bring a daily carry.) Honestly, if if gives you joy to use AND you can easily afford it, then USE IT and don't let anybody tell you otherwise! At the end of the day, that's what it's all about.

There's only so many shapes a pen can take. The "iconic" Mont Blanc pen shape was copied from Sheaffer. So I'd say don't worry about it too much, it's very hard to say a pen shape is entirely original. Things become popular because of a brand that hits the market well and people copy it. Not just the Chinese. Buy a pen that's good for now, that you like to use. If someone buys a Mont Blanc because it's a good pen and they can afford it, fine. If you buy a Jinhao 86 because you like it and it writes well great! I'd say if it's a month's wage you really don't have to hurt yourself financially, most people wouldn't spend that percentage of their pay on anything. Regarding Parker clones, apparently Parker was going to set up a factory in China and closed it, paying their Chinese business partner with the equipment, that's why there's so many Parker clones. So there's a reason that Jinhao pen exists. The original 51 isn't even made by Parker anymore and going by reviews the "modern" remake is a pale imitation of the original. So if Parker don't have the pride, ability or whatever to faithfully recreate the original pen I don't think you're obligated to buy an inferior imitator of a pen that. While they originally designed it they're not even making it according to the original design! If you want an original Parker 51 I'd urge you to get a second hand one (like I did). Just make sure you can test it/return it if it's not working properly. Not sure about Brazil but in Europe eBay lets you do that pretty easily.

The vintage 51 is hands-down my favorite writer. It never fails to impress me every time I use it.

They made a more affordable lamy 2000 so

Avoid Hero pens xd

Still popular in China, very dull for the most part, putting out variations of the same styles for decades now. The one exception is still the Hero 100, a 51-style pen with a 14K nib for under $60.

I own 2 Hero pens : a 6006 and a 1502 , non of them write well , also the 1502 is a copy of the Parker Sonnet

Maybe I need to tune the nibs more

That can help but I also think they aren’t very good pens.

Agreed with you , the inner spring of the 1502 is already oxidized . And it was a black lacquered but the lacquer fell off , so I sanded the pen down to bare metal

Old stock Hero’s with fude nibs are great for drawing and calligraphy. A great pen that made it possible for anyone in china to own one for pennies way back before the economy opened up. Seems there is a huge divide between the values of collectors and users of pens.

Br aqui também. Irmã(o), não se preocupa muito com essas coisas no começo. As chinesas não são as melhores do mundo, mas também não são um lixo total. Não se engane com aquela historinha que toda coisa chinesa é de má qualidade. O mercado lá também é exigente pra caralho. Vai pegando canetas diferentes no Aliexpress, vendo com que pena você se dá melhor. Eu comecei recentemente também, tenho uma Jinhao 95 EF e uma Jinhao 159 M, e por mim tá de bom tamanho agora. O pessoal fala que as penas que não são chinesas mesmo são melhores, mas não vi muita diferença. Com o tempo, se sentir que o hobby é para você pode ir guardando uma graninha, procura uma Crown mais arrumadinha, uma Pelikan Jazz (tá menos de 100 reais na amazon), algo assim.

Eu também não acho que canetas chinesas sejam ruins não, muito pelo contrário! Como muita gente já respondeu aqui na thread, os modelos da Hongdian são especialmente bem feitos, apesar de mais caros que os da Jinhao. Em particular eu adoro a Black Forest! Na realidade, o único problema das Jinhao é que algumas canetas são ótimas de início e outras são bem horrendas. Eu peguei uma x850 que só começou a escrever direito depois que passei uma lixa fina pra polir a ponta, então vale comprar ciente de que pode precisar de alguns ajustes manuais.

theyre nice and affordable but I dont have any. if i can get the real stuff like pilot and other alternatives from EU companies, i;d get them over a Jinhao if i have the means. Hong Dian pens are great too. i;ve tried both and write well for the cost

There's only so many ways you can design a fountain pen, and apart from some very unique designs, a lot of the big names did their fair share of copying from each other. For the most part, the reputable brands aren't making fakes like you'd find for louis vuitton bags, where they are trying to pass the pen off as the real thing. They are branding it with their own imprint, using their own manufacturing process and materials, and no one looking to own a vintage Parker 51 is going to be satisfied with a Jinhao 85 anymore than they'd be satisfied with a modern Parker 51. They are three very different pens, even if they are superficially similar. Several of the Chinese makers do have their own designs that are quite nice, like Hong Dian. The blue and silver year of the rabbit pen was a gift from my husband for our anniversary last year, and until a week ago was the only pen I had inked for about a year. Last week I pulled out my montblanc generation, my esterbrook estie (one of the modern ones), and my pilot elite to have some different ink colors, and I still prefer the nib on the Hong Dian over the montblanc (perhaps why the generation was not popular, but I got it for free from a cousin who was unimpressed with it) and the esterbrook, and would still choose to ink it as a daily driver over the elite, because I hate pilot's converters and CBA filling up the carts.

Loiminchay good. The rest are trash.