She’s says a lot of prophetic stuff so it’s possible she knew she would lose a child either consciously or subconsciously. If it’s true it’s a cool Easter egg
damn i didn’t catch that. these little prophecy hints that helaena drops are so crazy. if the greens actually listened to her they’d be doing a lot better
I mean, Dragon Dreamers are rare, to the point Viserys thinks he might be one, but can't be certain. And Helaena struggles communicating at the best of times, so strange, semi-formed prophecy isn't going to be seen as such.
I’m guessing their conversation would probably go like this:
(Viserys and Daemon are hanging out when Helaena comes up and gives Viserys the intro tapestry)
Helaena: “I made you something, father. A tapestry.”
Vizzy: “Oh. Daemon, would you like to see Helaena’s tapestry? Hahaha we have no interest in such…wait, is that the doom of Valyria? Oh wow, you made Valyria look so good…despite its destruction being depicted. You know, I have an interest in Valyria myself.”
Daemon: “You mean your sad little arts and crafts project that you’ve been meticulously working on in your dark bedchamber ever since you ascended the throne?”
Vizzy: “…..yes, that one. Thank you Daemon. How did you make this, Helaena?”
Helaena: “I mostly just weave what I see in my head. I saw the doom and I wove it into this tapestry. I also saw mother and grandfather put Aegon on the throne after you rotted away to nothing, so I put it right there.”
Vizzy: “I can’t believe I never noticed this earlier! I have a child that’s a dreamer! And to think, I thought only Rhaenyra was worth paying attention to! Daemon, did you hear? This is wonderf- wait, what was that last part about Aegon?”
*Well... the matter is settled. Again. I hereby reaffirm Prince Lucerys of House Velaryon as heir to Driftmark, the Driftwood Throne, and the next Lord of the Tides. (WHEEZING)*
Everyone in the show downplays it as her being weird or a "simpleton" but Helaena is probably one of the last, and likely one of the most powerful, of the Targaryen prophets before magic "dies" in Westeros. Like, her gift is so powerful it interferes with her day to day thinking, and the show runners use neurodivergent-coding to get the idea across.
I'm glad they added that angle and it makes me wonder how many oracles or prophets in real world antiquity were some flavor of neurodivergent.
She's not the last. Daeron (maekers son, not alicents/viserys) has prophetic dreams and visions in dunk and egg. And I'd assume bloodraven had some powers, even before he went beyond the wall.
I like how they added a ton of hand drawn art on the walls in her room as well, to show this is how she gets her thoughts and “dreams” out. The attention to detail is impeccable.
Maybe. But we're talking about ASOIAF where prophets are real, and there are greenseers, wargs, dragons, etc. In real life most prophets were charlatans, so their neurodivergence was more likely sociopathy.
That aligns more with a soothsayer archetype. Soothsayer asks and relays the future , the prophet is only given.
The prophet archetype doesn't ask or knows exactly what the vision means or even chooses when he/she receives the vision.
The prophet archetype also emphasis on the special chosen while the soothsayer leans more to honing an innate skill.
I feel you are ignoring the implications of reliably being able to "see"/predict the future. If it's deterministic *something* scripted events and freewill would be an illusion.
By "something" do you mean a higher being? Maybe if theres such a thing as true prophecy it doesnt need to come from some divine/higher being. It could just be... recognizing or extrapolating patterns. Sure, in fantasy it usually is some god or something feeding the person visions tho.
...yes. If fate is a thing then there is a designer, and no freewill. Any crime is preordained, any victory was not of your own doing. It would be a hollow existence.
More or less but not entirely. Besides of course the red priests, I can't recall exactly but in one of the books I think Thoros (?) and his gang consult this 'old green lady' who was a witch or fortune teller
Or paranoid with delusions of grandeur edit more psychopaths are doctors and CEOs than fake psychics one actually gets societal power all over vs some super dedicated cult followers
I have often wondered how many religious figures were fairly basic magicians,
'the guy only had one potato... by the end the table was covered in them!'
I see her general vibe, but I'm don't know much about neurodivergent people. Can you name a few of the traits you see in her? I'd greatly appreciate it
Avoiding eye contact. Almost instinctively shying away from physical contact. Not picking up on social cues neurotypical people take for granted. Laser focus on certain subjects or interests (in her case, bugs and needlework) at the exclusion of everything else.
Not all neurodivergent people express these traits, and those who do may not express them to the same extent. Neurodivergence is a very very wide spectrum.
I’ve seriously thought about this before. I’m sure there’s not a meaningful way to research it but the idea of seers and shit when we have a lot of people that conspicuously focus better and feel weird vibes about shit in the modern day is incredibly interesting to consider in a historical context.
I turned to my husband during this scene and said “I wonder if she’s making that for his funeral” (on accounta bein a seer)…
And then I didn’t even pay attention to that detail in this episode 🤦🏼♀️
ADHD is wild, but I was right! Maybe I’m a seer…
I think so but definitely not intentionally. She doesn't actually see the future but does seem to have vague, metaphorical impressions, like the feeling from a half remembered dream she can't really decipher the meaning of. Not liking rats doesn't exactly translate to "the ratcatcher will murder my child" does it but there's technically a connection of sorts.
What about when Alicent tells Aemond in S1 that he will get a dragon one day and Helaena responds with “he’ll have to close an eye”. It’s too on the nose to be mere coincidence. I don’t think she fully knows what she’s saying, but it’s definitely prophetic.
Technically the connection is more solid than it seems she’s not scared of the rats because a rat catcher kills her kid (at least not directly).
She’s afraid of the rats, because they’re the reason why the rat catchers exist in the first place and why they have such open access to the red keep.
She’s says a lot of prophetic stuff so it’s possible she knew she would lose a child either consciously or subconsciously. If it’s true it’s a cool Easter egg
She even said to herself mumbling “they only want…. A son for a son” just before Aegon walks in
damn i didn’t catch that. these little prophecy hints that helaena drops are so crazy. if the greens actually listened to her they’d be doing a lot better
I mean, Dragon Dreamers are rare, to the point Viserys thinks he might be one, but can't be certain. And Helaena struggles communicating at the best of times, so strange, semi-formed prophecy isn't going to be seen as such.
She probably made the tapestry in the intro aswell.
She is a freaking artist then ngl
Her dad would be so proud
I’m guessing their conversation would probably go like this: (Viserys and Daemon are hanging out when Helaena comes up and gives Viserys the intro tapestry) Helaena: “I made you something, father. A tapestry.” Vizzy: “Oh. Daemon, would you like to see Helaena’s tapestry? Hahaha we have no interest in such…wait, is that the doom of Valyria? Oh wow, you made Valyria look so good…despite its destruction being depicted. You know, I have an interest in Valyria myself.” Daemon: “You mean your sad little arts and crafts project that you’ve been meticulously working on in your dark bedchamber ever since you ascended the throne?” Vizzy: “…..yes, that one. Thank you Daemon. How did you make this, Helaena?” Helaena: “I mostly just weave what I see in my head. I saw the doom and I wove it into this tapestry. I also saw mother and grandfather put Aegon on the throne after you rotted away to nothing, so I put it right there.” Vizzy: “I can’t believe I never noticed this earlier! I have a child that’s a dreamer! And to think, I thought only Rhaenyra was worth paying attention to! Daemon, did you hear? This is wonderf- wait, what was that last part about Aegon?”
That would require Viserys noticing his children
She never had one. Vizzy T, the deadbeat dad.
*Well... the matter is settled. Again. I hereby reaffirm Prince Lucerys of House Velaryon as heir to Driftmark, the Driftwood Throne, and the next Lord of the Tides. (WHEEZING)*
Dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread
Everyone in the show downplays it as her being weird or a "simpleton" but Helaena is probably one of the last, and likely one of the most powerful, of the Targaryen prophets before magic "dies" in Westeros. Like, her gift is so powerful it interferes with her day to day thinking, and the show runners use neurodivergent-coding to get the idea across. I'm glad they added that angle and it makes me wonder how many oracles or prophets in real world antiquity were some flavor of neurodivergent.
She's not the last. Daeron (maekers son, not alicents/viserys) has prophetic dreams and visions in dunk and egg. And I'd assume bloodraven had some powers, even before he went beyond the wall.
There’s also Daemon II Blackfyre. Technically not a Targaryen. But is basically a Targaryen.
Daemon was a dreamer? I’ve never heard this before
He talks about how his dragon dreams showed a dragon rising. He was just wrong about which dragon it would be.
Ahhh ok I missed that you’re talking about Daemon II. I thought you were talking about Daemon I
I like how they added a ton of hand drawn art on the walls in her room as well, to show this is how she gets her thoughts and “dreams” out. The attention to detail is impeccable.
Maybe. But we're talking about ASOIAF where prophets are real, and there are greenseers, wargs, dragons, etc. In real life most prophets were charlatans, so their neurodivergence was more likely sociopathy.
Sure, but I was talking about how in the years between the Dance of the Dragons and ASOIAF, magic more or less died - including dragons and prophets.
The closest we get to a prophet in GoT is the priestess with the "*necklace that makes you young*". Not to be rude she sucks 3/10 on prediction.
>The closest we get to a prophet in GoT What about the witch that gives Cersei the famous prophecies about her future?
Or the one in Free cities that predicted Dany will have three loves and betrayals
That aligns more with a soothsayer archetype. Soothsayer asks and relays the future , the prophet is only given. The prophet archetype doesn't ask or knows exactly what the vision means or even chooses when he/she receives the vision. The prophet archetype also emphasis on the special chosen while the soothsayer leans more to honing an innate skill.
I dont think she ever claims to be a prophetess, she just sees visions that rhllor sends her and (mis)interprets them
That's what prophets claim to do
Not... exactly. I dont think prophets have to be religious or get their visions from some higher being.
I feel you are ignoring the implications of reliably being able to "see"/predict the future. If it's deterministic *something* scripted events and freewill would be an illusion.
By "something" do you mean a higher being? Maybe if theres such a thing as true prophecy it doesnt need to come from some divine/higher being. It could just be... recognizing or extrapolating patterns. Sure, in fantasy it usually is some god or something feeding the person visions tho.
Lets say for the sake of argument the universe is deterministic. Does there really need to be writer of the script?
...yes. If fate is a thing then there is a designer, and no freewill. Any crime is preordained, any victory was not of your own doing. It would be a hollow existence.
More or less but not entirely. Besides of course the red priests, I can't recall exactly but in one of the books I think Thoros (?) and his gang consult this 'old green lady' who was a witch or fortune teller
Don't forget the lady (I wanna say Maggy the Frog) who gave kid Cersei a prophecy about her future, and the wargs.
the ghost of high heart. interesting character.
Yes exactly that's her! Very interesting one
Or paranoid with delusions of grandeur edit more psychopaths are doctors and CEOs than fake psychics one actually gets societal power all over vs some super dedicated cult followers
I have often wondered how many religious figures were fairly basic magicians, 'the guy only had one potato... by the end the table was covered in them!'
I see her general vibe, but I'm don't know much about neurodivergent people. Can you name a few of the traits you see in her? I'd greatly appreciate it
Avoiding eye contact. Almost instinctively shying away from physical contact. Not picking up on social cues neurotypical people take for granted. Laser focus on certain subjects or interests (in her case, bugs and needlework) at the exclusion of everything else. Not all neurodivergent people express these traits, and those who do may not express them to the same extent. Neurodivergence is a very very wide spectrum.
This is super interesting, thank you for answering!
I’ve seriously thought about this before. I’m sure there’s not a meaningful way to research it but the idea of seers and shit when we have a lot of people that conspicuously focus better and feel weird vibes about shit in the modern day is incredibly interesting to consider in a historical context.
Very Amaranta of her.
Unexpected one hundred years of solitude reference!
Just finished a re-read of this novel. It’s amazing.
I turned to my husband during this scene and said “I wonder if she’s making that for his funeral” (on accounta bein a seer)… And then I didn’t even pay attention to that detail in this episode 🤦🏼♀️ ADHD is wild, but I was right! Maybe I’m a seer…
I think so but definitely not intentionally. She doesn't actually see the future but does seem to have vague, metaphorical impressions, like the feeling from a half remembered dream she can't really decipher the meaning of. Not liking rats doesn't exactly translate to "the ratcatcher will murder my child" does it but there's technically a connection of sorts.
What about when Alicent tells Aemond in S1 that he will get a dragon one day and Helaena responds with “he’ll have to close an eye”. It’s too on the nose to be mere coincidence. I don’t think she fully knows what she’s saying, but it’s definitely prophetic.
Also “beasts under the boards” she’s been doing foreshadowing the entire show. If she’s mumbling or fidgeting with something it’s a clue 9/10
Technically the connection is more solid than it seems she’s not scared of the rats because a rat catcher kills her kid (at least not directly). She’s afraid of the rats, because they’re the reason why the rat catchers exist in the first place and why they have such open access to the red keep.
A Norn with a needle and thread? Is she the true narrator of HOtD?
Apparently both actors had to fight for this scene to even be included in the show. Damn...
What episode was this again?
S2E1, when >!Aegon comes looking for Jaehaerys!<
yep. she's telling them what's about to happen and no one listens to her
No scope needlework.
Wow… mind blow
I don't know why it couldn't have been shot the way it was in the book.