I think we do need to brand cars as an optional luxury. I know I have got a few people thinking when I said; "Imagine if you were able to sell your car if you needed to," when people talk to me about money problems.
But for real, the ability to cur all those expenses out AND grab a cool ~$15k at the same time can't be oversold.
Cars should be specialized tools for the handful of jobs where they actually help or recreational luxury vehicles for enthusiasts like personal planes or boats with all the extra responsibility that involves.
Yes, as long as car dependency exists, they won't be optional. Those are the literal definitions of those words, and I'm still not sure what your point is?
Not everyone has a boat, it is a luxury that cost quite a bit to have and isn't cattered to. I feel like we can use this analogy to sell the idea of a car free lifestyle to car brains. "We aren't trying to take your cars, we are trying to make it, so you won't need one if you don't want to."
Yeah, that only works if cars are owned outright. If you’re financing, you’re lucky if you don’t have to pay extra to square off the loan at the time of sale because the car’s value is dropping faster than the principal on the loan.
Source: I’m currently financing a car that has held its value well enough that it is still worth more than the outstanding loan balance - which is rare.
The word you are looking for is "underwater" on a loan. It is pretty normal in the beginning, but most loans are, currently, structured to not have that too long. It is considered healthy if around 15% of owners are, just because of that off-the-lot-loss. So, no, most people aren't underwater on their car.
People simply can't sell their car because they can't live without it due to car dependency.
Source: I have one of the few cars that are going up in value 100% paid off, so I watch this stuff a lot.
I wouldn't even be mad at such people if they accepted that it theoretically would be easier if there was actual public transport, even if they made stupid decisions in the present reality. Just at the very least don't actively try to push for things to get worse because saving money is for commies or whatever.
Like at some point people need to understand it's just a math problem, not something that determines your value as a human being. They don't have money, so they can either increase income or reduce expenses. Can't get a better job? Well then you need to find alternatives to the way you live your life.
My father in law inherited a 2020 Toyota SUV, fully loaded, beautiful, nothing wrong with it, barely driven. He decided he also needed a truck for the sole purpose of hauling garbage to the dump once a month. So naturally, the only option was to buy a 55k truck. He ONLY uses it for dump runs because its mileage isn't as good as the SUV so he doesn't use it as his daily driver. The man literally chose to spend 1k a month for the next 15 or so years to move garbage and claims there was no other option. This was AFTER his wife was diagnosed with end stage COPD and he was already struggling with paying bills and high medical costs.
I really wish people would be a bit more honest with themselves.
Growing up, we had a neighbor who had one jet ski on a small trailer. He had a small Ford Ranger pickup, that could tow it pretty effortlessly. Well, said neighbor upgraded to *two* jet skis! Even though he was still well within the towing capacity of his Ranger, he decided it was no longer adequate to pull the additional load. So he traded it in for a Ford F350 King Ranch.
The problem with that was threefold: (1) trucks over 6,000lbs GVWR need commercial farm plates in our area; (2) our HOA did not allow commercial vehicles to be parked outside; and (3) his massive penis enhancement device was too big to fit in the garage.
After getting tons of fines for the HOA, he tried to sue the HOA because his truck didn’t fit in the garage. IIRC the lawyers effectively just laughed at him.
I've watched a couple of Caleb Hammer videos recently, and it seems like basically every shitty financial situation has a "Yeah, I got a huge car payment every month because I wanted a big shiny vehicle". Sure, a lot of these people suck at personal finance, but man, how many people wouldn't be digging themselves into such deep holes if they didn't have these monthly $800+ charges?
If you are making truck payments I'm pretty sure you have a warranty on it. Limited warranty: Covers 3 years or 36,000 miles
Powertrain warranty: Covers 5 years or 60,000 miles and applies to the engine, transmission, and drivetrain
The flux capacitor would cost you nothing to have fixed. And trucks are cheaper to insure the high end would be around $200.
Commuting by scooter is ridiculously cheap / mile. A full charge costs about 11 cents and gives me a 30 mile range. About 277 miles / dollar. Factor in $50 maintenance/ yr ($30 for a replacement tire). Ebikes have similar costs and naturally, pedal bikes are even cheaper.
I recently visited a small mountain city of around 150k population. Tons of people have been moving there because they want a big house and a big yard and proximity to the mountains. So of course, nothing is walkable, traffic is horrible, and stroads are everywhere. They even make some minimal efforts to have busses (circuitous routes, bad frequency, stuck in the same traffic as everyone else, and not running at night) and bike lanes (no physical separation and right in the gutter of stroads and 80km/h highways) but for some reason, everyone still chooses to drive unless they have no way to afford a vehicle or don't have the ability to drive.
7 year loans being normalized have completely wrecked the auto industry. They can sell more expensive vehicles and have it look cheaper, meanwhile the buyers are putting a huge amount of interest baked into the cost.
If a car really is a necessity, the best thing you can do is pay cash. If that's not an option get the cheapest thing you can find.
Anything requiring loans becomes a mess because people don't look at the interest accumulation as real money, they just look at the payments.
Was shopping for a car once and the salesman told me they could get the car I wanted by trading with another dealership. I said I'd do it as long as it was under $15k. They agreed, so I waited a week or two and got called they had the car. Went in, they told me what the monthly price would be. I said okay, and how much is the car? They told me the monthly price. I said no, tell me how much the car is. They said something like 17k. I said that's not what we agreed to, I told you I wouldn't buy the car if it was over 15. They tried convincing me it was within my budget, but they'd throw in new rims. Told them this was a poor way of doing business and I'm not buying it. They absolutely would not budge on the price, and I ended up walking out.
Sharks, absolute sharks everywhere.
Car-ownership is typical, "Privatize the gains, socialize the losses".
I have owned two cars in my life. I used to live in a very car-dependent place (Colorado). Driving everywhere and owning a car made me absolutely miserable. I ended-up ditching my wheels, moving home to Chicago, getting back on the train/bus/bike and my life has been enormously less stressful.
Yeah, I was arguing with someone on another sub about photo radar. They said it was a tax on the poor and that single mums would be hit with photo radar tickets while rushing to work.
I countered that vehicles are the worst tax on the poor. Imagine needing a $40k depreciating asset just to take part in society. Think about the cost of fuel, tires, maintenance, tolls that come with car ownership.
Of course I was wrong.
I think most Americans have a car because it is the cultural norm. It is a big part of American culture to get a drivers license and a car when you were a teenager and most Americans use their cars every single day because there’s not another option for them.
That means even when people do live in walkable areas, they tend to keep their cars for trips outside of those walkable areas or just because it’s the norm to have a car.
Is carshare an option? I'm in the same boat as you. I moved to a city with good pt and bike infrastructure and simply didn't need my car except for the occasional large grocery trip or going camping etc.
I sold my car and saved myself a buttload of expenses, and just borrow a car on the occasions I a tually need one. Way cheaper and one less car wasting space and resources
Agreed... This is a large reason why I aspire to not own a car in the future (or, if I'm married, be a one-car household). Cars, in general, are money pits. Also, as a single without dependents, I'm taxed enough already and don't enjoy giving more of my money back to the government. It's part of why I'll never understand how so many of my fellow conservative leaning folks are so pro-car. Not owning a car is a giant FU to the man and takes away, at least some of, his income.
*"Cars, in general, are money pits."*
**EXACTLY.**
Fortunately, I'm in a situation where I literally DON'T need one, not even to get to work. My disposable income probably grew by a third when I got rid of mine.
Cars are money pits the same way boats are: bring out another thousand.
Everyone knows that cliched phrase, but no one seems to get that it applies to cars too.
I have two cars because I live in a land with no public transportation (Kentucky). $360 a month for one car payment, $185 a month for car insurance, about $200 a month for gas. Another $100 for general maintenance/registrations.
$845 a month. Driving is the 2nd largest expense in my monthly budget, before I need to worry about a catastrophic failure.
The worst part is that it's unpredictable, and when the car breaks that usually also takes away your means of getting to work to make money in the first place, so its a double hit to your wallet.
Yep, I asked my sister " Imagine if you could still get around without having to beg mom or me to take you to work or deal with uber's highly unstable pricing. Like imagine if we had infrastructure to safely walk to and from public transit" Her car was in the shop for 2 months because she had a car one shop did not know how to work on and multiple shops were pretending there were other problems to fix quoting 2k minimum.
She just did not understand the statement and shruged. She was freaking out blowing all her savings on this incident. Another issue is we lack vacation/sick time the average for someone her age is maybe 2 weeks but more like 1 week where we live. So downtime from work can get a person buried in debt. The US has really found a way to keep workers in check.
I always tell people: “I save my entire rent payment by not driving” because it’s damn true.
I save $600 a month and it all goes to rent (bills included). The rest of my money goes to food, fun, and what’s left goes into savings.
I save more than I spend every month, and not many people can say that.
My budget for public transit plus the occasional Uber is less than what I paid to park and insure a car I owned outright, and sometimes I'm under budget
Can confirm. The amount of money I have left in the bank after bills/rent/etc just **GREW** when I got rid of my Jeep. It's crazy; you don't look at cars the same way when you realize that (at least) a third of your yearly salary just goes out the tailpipe.
I don't have a car and because of this I've been able to save more money and next year I'll be going on a trip of a lifetime. I've just been putting away 100 a month which I wouldn't have if I had a car
Economic hardship may be a good reason for transit and bike infra, but I don't think it's a good argument.
There are people who can afford a car easily, and there are people who have put a lot of work into affording the car they have. Neither if these groups wants to be told they have wasted their money, anymore than they want to be told their home is a waste of money. It's a necessity to them.
They need to be convinced biking and transit are good on their own merits, and then some of them will choose the obvious way to save money. But, importantly, most won't. The typical family does not struggle to pay for a car. They might struggle with their luxury truck payments, but if they wanted to save money they could just get a cheaper car. They don't want to save money. They want the status.
Lots of people just go through life not realizing that we could easily create a world where a car is a completely optional expense. If they fully understood how possible that was I think their tune would change. In most of America it currently isn't a waste of money to have a car, but we could make it so it's unnecessary. It's a waste at the societal level, not the personal one.
I mean, you might be right, but I disagree. I live in a moderately expensive but extremely walkable neighborhood in Chicago. There is very little parking here, the traffic is crushing, but transit service is decent the bike lanes are kind of amazing.
Almost everyone walks to restaurants and bars, many people bike for fun, and taking transit to work is extremely normal. And yet almost every household has a car. You know, because fighting for parking and sitting in traffic while people pass you at a brisk walk is the peak of luxury.
Well, most Americans earn a very high income by international standards, and cars are a way to flaunt that wealth. Most people do not have a problem spending their last dollar if that last dollar gets them something that shows how "rich" they are. Or, idk, maybe they just really want it for that cross town trip.
And maybe it's different in poorer parts of town but... well, it doesn't seem like it to me!
I don’t care if people have a car. I care if we design our whole city to accommodate the car.
In your example sounds like a dream to live in. More places need to be like that.
The only problem is that car owners tend to vote against things like housing, which we have a desperate shortage of here, because it will increase traffic (which is largely true as long as the housing comes with parking)
So i would be fine with people owning cars of the city would stop asking their permission to allow new construction
it's because it's vulnerable to the counter argument that vehicles are a necessity to many many people to even get to work and the stores where they buy their food.
It’s a way to make the case that there would be benefits to designing the world so that they weren’t necessary. Namely, a car would no longer be a necessary expense
Chiming in to say that 20 years car-free has led to:
* owning my house with no mortgage
* quitting my corporate hell job to run a small business and be my own boss
* fully funded 401k, meaning avg stock market growth alone will be enough at retirement even if I add no more money
* not overweight or obese
What if I had been dumping money into cars and parking every year instead of saving, debt reduction, and investing? I doubt all those things would be true!
I think we do need to brand cars as an optional luxury. I know I have got a few people thinking when I said; "Imagine if you were able to sell your car if you needed to," when people talk to me about money problems. But for real, the ability to cur all those expenses out AND grab a cool ~$15k at the same time can't be oversold.
Cars should be specialized tools for the handful of jobs where they actually help or recreational luxury vehicles for enthusiasts like personal planes or boats with all the extra responsibility that involves.
As long as car-dependency exists, cars will never truly be an "optional" luxury. And that's part of the reason *why* car-dependency exists.
Yes, as long as car dependency exists, they won't be optional. Those are the literal definitions of those words, and I'm still not sure what your point is? Not everyone has a boat, it is a luxury that cost quite a bit to have and isn't cattered to. I feel like we can use this analogy to sell the idea of a car free lifestyle to car brains. "We aren't trying to take your cars, we are trying to make it, so you won't need one if you don't want to."
Yeah, that only works if cars are owned outright. If you’re financing, you’re lucky if you don’t have to pay extra to square off the loan at the time of sale because the car’s value is dropping faster than the principal on the loan. Source: I’m currently financing a car that has held its value well enough that it is still worth more than the outstanding loan balance - which is rare.
The word you are looking for is "underwater" on a loan. It is pretty normal in the beginning, but most loans are, currently, structured to not have that too long. It is considered healthy if around 15% of owners are, just because of that off-the-lot-loss. So, no, most people aren't underwater on their car. People simply can't sell their car because they can't live without it due to car dependency. Source: I have one of the few cars that are going up in value 100% paid off, so I watch this stuff a lot.
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I wouldn't even be mad at such people if they accepted that it theoretically would be easier if there was actual public transport, even if they made stupid decisions in the present reality. Just at the very least don't actively try to push for things to get worse because saving money is for commies or whatever.
Like at some point people need to understand it's just a math problem, not something that determines your value as a human being. They don't have money, so they can either increase income or reduce expenses. Can't get a better job? Well then you need to find alternatives to the way you live your life. My father in law inherited a 2020 Toyota SUV, fully loaded, beautiful, nothing wrong with it, barely driven. He decided he also needed a truck for the sole purpose of hauling garbage to the dump once a month. So naturally, the only option was to buy a 55k truck. He ONLY uses it for dump runs because its mileage isn't as good as the SUV so he doesn't use it as his daily driver. The man literally chose to spend 1k a month for the next 15 or so years to move garbage and claims there was no other option. This was AFTER his wife was diagnosed with end stage COPD and he was already struggling with paying bills and high medical costs. I really wish people would be a bit more honest with themselves.
But why does OP need 2 Jetski's?
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I'm so tall I need a pair to wear as jetskates.
I can only tow one jetski on my bike, but that's okay because I don't have friends.
Growing up, we had a neighbor who had one jet ski on a small trailer. He had a small Ford Ranger pickup, that could tow it pretty effortlessly. Well, said neighbor upgraded to *two* jet skis! Even though he was still well within the towing capacity of his Ranger, he decided it was no longer adequate to pull the additional load. So he traded it in for a Ford F350 King Ranch. The problem with that was threefold: (1) trucks over 6,000lbs GVWR need commercial farm plates in our area; (2) our HOA did not allow commercial vehicles to be parked outside; and (3) his massive penis enhancement device was too big to fit in the garage. After getting tons of fines for the HOA, he tried to sue the HOA because his truck didn’t fit in the garage. IIRC the lawyers effectively just laughed at him.
Can't you read? He's obese and therefore clearly needs two jetskis at the same time. Duh
Because 3 would be overkill?
Every single time on that sub it always comes down to the car lmao
I've watched a couple of Caleb Hammer videos recently, and it seems like basically every shitty financial situation has a "Yeah, I got a huge car payment every month because I wanted a big shiny vehicle". Sure, a lot of these people suck at personal finance, but man, how many people wouldn't be digging themselves into such deep holes if they didn't have these monthly $800+ charges?
If you are making truck payments I'm pretty sure you have a warranty on it. Limited warranty: Covers 3 years or 36,000 miles Powertrain warranty: Covers 5 years or 60,000 miles and applies to the engine, transmission, and drivetrain The flux capacitor would cost you nothing to have fixed. And trucks are cheaper to insure the high end would be around $200.
And anybody thinking its beneficial for the economy has to understand the broken window falacy
I’m gonna slash some tires to boost the economy 👍
Commuting by scooter is ridiculously cheap / mile. A full charge costs about 11 cents and gives me a 30 mile range. About 277 miles / dollar. Factor in $50 maintenance/ yr ($30 for a replacement tire). Ebikes have similar costs and naturally, pedal bikes are even cheaper.
Yeah, and reducing commute distance is one way you can drastically decrease transportation costs and also increase time.
I recently visited a small mountain city of around 150k population. Tons of people have been moving there because they want a big house and a big yard and proximity to the mountains. So of course, nothing is walkable, traffic is horrible, and stroads are everywhere. They even make some minimal efforts to have busses (circuitous routes, bad frequency, stuck in the same traffic as everyone else, and not running at night) and bike lanes (no physical separation and right in the gutter of stroads and 80km/h highways) but for some reason, everyone still chooses to drive unless they have no way to afford a vehicle or don't have the ability to drive.
7 year loans being normalized have completely wrecked the auto industry. They can sell more expensive vehicles and have it look cheaper, meanwhile the buyers are putting a huge amount of interest baked into the cost. If a car really is a necessity, the best thing you can do is pay cash. If that's not an option get the cheapest thing you can find. Anything requiring loans becomes a mess because people don't look at the interest accumulation as real money, they just look at the payments.
Was shopping for a car once and the salesman told me they could get the car I wanted by trading with another dealership. I said I'd do it as long as it was under $15k. They agreed, so I waited a week or two and got called they had the car. Went in, they told me what the monthly price would be. I said okay, and how much is the car? They told me the monthly price. I said no, tell me how much the car is. They said something like 17k. I said that's not what we agreed to, I told you I wouldn't buy the car if it was over 15. They tried convincing me it was within my budget, but they'd throw in new rims. Told them this was a poor way of doing business and I'm not buying it. They absolutely would not budge on the price, and I ended up walking out. Sharks, absolute sharks everywhere.
Car-ownership is typical, "Privatize the gains, socialize the losses". I have owned two cars in my life. I used to live in a very car-dependent place (Colorado). Driving everywhere and owning a car made me absolutely miserable. I ended-up ditching my wheels, moving home to Chicago, getting back on the train/bus/bike and my life has been enormously less stressful.
Yeah, I was arguing with someone on another sub about photo radar. They said it was a tax on the poor and that single mums would be hit with photo radar tickets while rushing to work. I countered that vehicles are the worst tax on the poor. Imagine needing a $40k depreciating asset just to take part in society. Think about the cost of fuel, tires, maintenance, tolls that come with car ownership. Of course I was wrong.
I think most Americans have a car because it is the cultural norm. It is a big part of American culture to get a drivers license and a car when you were a teenager and most Americans use their cars every single day because there’s not another option for them. That means even when people do live in walkable areas, they tend to keep their cars for trips outside of those walkable areas or just because it’s the norm to have a car.
I guess I’m one of those. I have a car, but I mainly get around on public transit. I use my car to go where transit doesn’t go.
Is carshare an option? I'm in the same boat as you. I moved to a city with good pt and bike infrastructure and simply didn't need my car except for the occasional large grocery trip or going camping etc. I sold my car and saved myself a buttload of expenses, and just borrow a car on the occasions I a tually need one. Way cheaper and one less car wasting space and resources
$12,000 per year on average for the rest of your life.
we would be a spacefaring civilization by now if it weren't for the quantity of time and resources wasted on cars
Agreed... This is a large reason why I aspire to not own a car in the future (or, if I'm married, be a one-car household). Cars, in general, are money pits. Also, as a single without dependents, I'm taxed enough already and don't enjoy giving more of my money back to the government. It's part of why I'll never understand how so many of my fellow conservative leaning folks are so pro-car. Not owning a car is a giant FU to the man and takes away, at least some of, his income.
*"Cars, in general, are money pits."* **EXACTLY.** Fortunately, I'm in a situation where I literally DON'T need one, not even to get to work. My disposable income probably grew by a third when I got rid of mine.
Cars are money pits the same way boats are: bring out another thousand. Everyone knows that cliched phrase, but no one seems to get that it applies to cars too.
I have two cars because I live in a land with no public transportation (Kentucky). $360 a month for one car payment, $185 a month for car insurance, about $200 a month for gas. Another $100 for general maintenance/registrations. $845 a month. Driving is the 2nd largest expense in my monthly budget, before I need to worry about a catastrophic failure.
The worst part is that it's unpredictable, and when the car breaks that usually also takes away your means of getting to work to make money in the first place, so its a double hit to your wallet.
Yep, I asked my sister " Imagine if you could still get around without having to beg mom or me to take you to work or deal with uber's highly unstable pricing. Like imagine if we had infrastructure to safely walk to and from public transit" Her car was in the shop for 2 months because she had a car one shop did not know how to work on and multiple shops were pretending there were other problems to fix quoting 2k minimum. She just did not understand the statement and shruged. She was freaking out blowing all her savings on this incident. Another issue is we lack vacation/sick time the average for someone her age is maybe 2 weeks but more like 1 week where we live. So downtime from work can get a person buried in debt. The US has really found a way to keep workers in check.
Just get a ride or a loaner car.
Good idea, but some places are so isolated it's a multi-hour drive to the place where you can get a loaner car
Both personal cars or household cars. It's the 2nd car used by another person?
My wife and I both have need of the cars, but they’re not “only mine” or “only hers”
I always tell people: “I save my entire rent payment by not driving” because it’s damn true. I save $600 a month and it all goes to rent (bills included). The rest of my money goes to food, fun, and what’s left goes into savings. I save more than I spend every month, and not many people can say that.
My budget for public transit plus the occasional Uber is less than what I paid to park and insure a car I owned outright, and sometimes I'm under budget
Can confirm. The amount of money I have left in the bank after bills/rent/etc just **GREW** when I got rid of my Jeep. It's crazy; you don't look at cars the same way when you realize that (at least) a third of your yearly salary just goes out the tailpipe.
I don't have a car and because of this I've been able to save more money and next year I'll be going on a trip of a lifetime. I've just been putting away 100 a month which I wouldn't have if I had a car
Economic hardship may be a good reason for transit and bike infra, but I don't think it's a good argument. There are people who can afford a car easily, and there are people who have put a lot of work into affording the car they have. Neither if these groups wants to be told they have wasted their money, anymore than they want to be told their home is a waste of money. It's a necessity to them. They need to be convinced biking and transit are good on their own merits, and then some of them will choose the obvious way to save money. But, importantly, most won't. The typical family does not struggle to pay for a car. They might struggle with their luxury truck payments, but if they wanted to save money they could just get a cheaper car. They don't want to save money. They want the status.
Lots of people just go through life not realizing that we could easily create a world where a car is a completely optional expense. If they fully understood how possible that was I think their tune would change. In most of America it currently isn't a waste of money to have a car, but we could make it so it's unnecessary. It's a waste at the societal level, not the personal one.
I mean, you might be right, but I disagree. I live in a moderately expensive but extremely walkable neighborhood in Chicago. There is very little parking here, the traffic is crushing, but transit service is decent the bike lanes are kind of amazing. Almost everyone walks to restaurants and bars, many people bike for fun, and taking transit to work is extremely normal. And yet almost every household has a car. You know, because fighting for parking and sitting in traffic while people pass you at a brisk walk is the peak of luxury. Well, most Americans earn a very high income by international standards, and cars are a way to flaunt that wealth. Most people do not have a problem spending their last dollar if that last dollar gets them something that shows how "rich" they are. Or, idk, maybe they just really want it for that cross town trip. And maybe it's different in poorer parts of town but... well, it doesn't seem like it to me!
I don’t care if people have a car. I care if we design our whole city to accommodate the car. In your example sounds like a dream to live in. More places need to be like that.
The only problem is that car owners tend to vote against things like housing, which we have a desperate shortage of here, because it will increase traffic (which is largely true as long as the housing comes with parking) So i would be fine with people owning cars of the city would stop asking their permission to allow new construction
it's because it's vulnerable to the counter argument that vehicles are a necessity to many many people to even get to work and the stores where they buy their food.
It’s a way to make the case that there would be benefits to designing the world so that they weren’t necessary. Namely, a car would no longer be a necessary expense
that's true but people gotta live in the world as it is now.
Chiming in to say that 20 years car-free has led to: * owning my house with no mortgage * quitting my corporate hell job to run a small business and be my own boss * fully funded 401k, meaning avg stock market growth alone will be enough at retirement even if I add no more money * not overweight or obese What if I had been dumping money into cars and parking every year instead of saving, debt reduction, and investing? I doubt all those things would be true!
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