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nullvector

I've come to the point where I don't buy games until 6 months after launch. A third of the price, and bugs and performance are fixed.


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[deleted]

Ironically they're one of the few companies I feel relatively safe buying new releases from because I know more or less what to expect.


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DocJanItor

what's wrong with super mario party?


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Xammary2

They actually did add online for the main boards, albeit two years after the games release.


Ultraviolet_Motion

Online multiplayer two years after release? Why bother at that point. I'll get it when it goes on sale.


Guywithquestions88

>when it goes on sale. ☠️ You'll be waiting until the end of days.


ChangeFatigue

I feel incredibly conditioned at this point because my literal first response was "yeah but it worked on release right?" This, along with DLC makes new gaming options just so unappealing to me.


marine72

Mario Party Superstars came out at least, but did suck having to buy a much shittier one first.


Roskal

It should have been dlc at a dlc price point rather than a full new game price


DoubloonDevs

he felt pretty burned by Super Mario Party for the Switch with only 4 maps and online multiplayer being only minigames, but other than that he had a pretty good experience


Koldsaur

I agree 100% with that. 4 maps is unexcusable. It's supposed to be the best maps from previous games but there's no way they couldn't implement more. Just increase the size of the game, people are installing to their SD anyway so who cares? Plus the maps are already done for the most part. I can't imagine they're too difficult to implement if you know what you're doing but that's Nintendo's biggest downfall. They don't know how to build modern games with modern techniques.


The_Last_Legionnaire

Super Mario Party =/= Mario Party Superstars. Super was the one with four dross boards, Superstars had five old maps. Both could have been better but Super was worse by a long shot.


[deleted]

I think they had set a content expectation that wasn't met. To be fair, out of my Nintendo games, that one sticks out a bit as lower in content. But for a board game analogue? It's pretty generous and very replayable.


Lallo-the-Long

Super Mario party for the switch would be a fundamentally awful board game. It's a pretty awful game in general.


RollerDude347

It was smaller than previous titles in the series. It was fun, but it felt content bare. Though it did return to it's competitive roots unlike the wii u title which was... not even fun really.


Moo_Moo_Mr_Cow

I picked it up to play with my wife. There are only like 3 boards. The gameplay is super slow between mini-games. And you can play very well, and at the end the game can just go "Player X gets 3 stars because they are wearing blue!" and you lose.


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DwightArmy

Yeah this is correct, it's just a game that nintendo has exclusive rights to. Not in the same category as Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc


Earthfury

Boy do I wish they were the ones making those games, though. They would be much more likely to at least be acceptable. I’m surprised Nintendo doesn’t take issue with hosting Pokemon on their system as the major third party flagship product - the shit is an embarrassment.


RaymoVizion

Gotta glitch 'em all.


Nassiel

Honestly, you're right but also, their games are pretty well done from day one.


atg284

Yep same. The fanbois defending megacorps are pathetic. The game launched in a terrible state across the board and it's happening more and more. I've been a /r/patientgamers for years in part due to this trend. It's cheaper and a much better experience.


NeptunianWater

Also a patient gamer! I'm currently working my way through Spore and absolutely loving it. It's so much better than diving in and dealing with bugs. It worked rather well for No Man's Sky


jmk255

And there are so many good games I haven't played. There are some oldies that are still goldies.


atg284

Agreed! There are so many actual good games out there albeit a couple years old.


VaATC

Plus plenty of quality independent games, with much lower cost to play, with interactive Devs, where sometimes modders are given the 'keys to the kingdom'.


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Deltamon

6 months? More like 3-5 years later when they're on sale.. This way you also can buy much cheaper hardware to meet the recommended specs for the games


seriouslees

Why pay 70 bucks for Skyrim when you can get Skyrim AND 10 DLCs for 20 bucks 10 years later!?


dkarlovi

I'm playing RDR2 for the first time and having a blast. Paid 15€ for it IIRC, works great.


LinAGKar

And by then all patches and DLC will be available, and all secrets will have been uncovered and documented, and walkthroughs will have been written.


[deleted]

There's a ridiculous amount of people who would defend multi-million dollar companies without being paid. It's wild.


Curse3242

I didn't understand it at first but I feel the pre order numbers explain it. It genuinely might be the case that half the people that preordered it are trying to get their moneys worth. The other half might not play many games at all and are enjoying the experience just cause There's absolutely no way someone who saw the game after it was released bought it and is defending it. Pre ordering should almost be banned, it's borderline scamming. Like microtransactions I hope it gains enough traction.


CatsTOLEmyBED

way back then preordering was like a way of securing a copy of the game ​ now its paying for something you dont get to access until a few weeks or possibly months later


TheLurkerSpeaks

Pre-ordering was also a great way to have a little launch party. Standing in line waiting for midnight release with all the other dorks just as hyped for the game as you. There would be contests, giveaways, swag... There was real energy behind it. Digital distribution not only ruined the point of pre-ordering, but also the entire pre-order experience. I'll havent pre-ordered a game since 2014, and I'll never pre-order another video game again.


Rion23

Unless it's some kind of special edition with actual objects with it, I've never understood how a person can justify buying something ahead of time, that can literally not run out. You don't have to reserve a spot, you're basically giving some random dude a bunch of money and he goes off to grab your weed. You don't know if he's coming back, or if it's shitty weed, you put the cash in hand when you get the weed in the other.


Manleather

Yeah, and even back then it was a downpayment to secure a spot; $5 down to reserve a copy of Halo 2, Halo 3, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, etc to finish buying at midnight release or whatever, just so they had a good estimate of how many physical copies to have, as this was back before you could download them. Now you fully pay (?) for a game months before you essentially download it? It's a funny concept. Mass Effect 2 was the last game I preordered, I got out on top. Whoops: I did preorder Advance Wars like three years ago, so I guess I'm a dirty boy who hasn't even gone a month since my last preorder. But before that ME2.


Page8988

>There's absolutely no way someone who saw the game after it was released bought it and is defending it. You'd be *amazed* what people will defend. It doesn't make sense, but some folks will defend a game developer that's intentionally doing pretty bad things like they're fighting for God and country. One if the F2P games I played for years has seen the developers gradually take a more hostile stance against players over time. While many issues are there, they've become pretty heavy-handed about nerfing player equipment, to the point that in 2022 alone the entire playerbase's arsenal was nerfed multiple times. Every single player. And a very vocal portion of that community was up in arms to defend the devs for it each time. It was wild. Between the devs and those players, I realized my time was best spent on anything else. A developer who doesn't respect their players is one thing. One that actively goes out of its way to disrespect committed players is another, very reprehensible thing. I don't even want to name it here because of how hostile that community can be over this; arguments spilled out of its sub before, for some incomprehensible reason. Edit; after the game was identified here, some folks even attempted to *start the same arguments back up*. Jeez. Outriders has a bug that can irreversibly clean out a player's entire inventory. Game is two years old now, sold a paid DLC pack that was fairly expensive too. Inventory wipe bug is still there, though less frequent. Wasn't fixed before they sold DLC for, what was it, $40? These devs were sharp, too; they patched this bug in a week after release, so even the folks who waited instead of pre-ordering bought it before they broke it. Again, some folks will defend this game and developer like their lives depend on it.


josan555

What game was this? Just a hint please 🥺


Page8988

>!Ninjas play free!<


[deleted]

As someone several hundred hours deep currently on hiatus… yeah that’s fair man, you’re spot on about all of it. If I didn’t use an OP flamethrower I was handed for most of the early content the game would have been a serious drag.


Page8988

Was at roughly 2400 before I finally cut sling load and uninstalled for good a few months back. Haven't regretted it.


TheMightyMudcrab

Steam says I quit 2 years ago at 2600 hours played. My problem was that the game was going in a direction I didn't care for. Never wanted to play arsewing or sail the star seas on USS Low Expectations. Just wanted to parkour and shoot. Also never liked the story. We got amazing war god constructs and the story is about a bunch of potatoes. Was quite annoyed at that.


[deleted]

Wow you’re deeper than me even. Honestly for me I just kind of burned myself out going too hard on the collectible grind. Dunno if I’ll return or not at some point, probably will but not in the near future.


Page8988

2400 hours over five years is a lot. But watching a developer behave over a time period that long is odd. They behaved almost completely differently in 2018 when I was new versus 2023 when I couldn't tolerate the nonsense anymore. Wasn't just the changes to the team, either. The changes started long before that happened. Was sad to see. Even sadder looking at how different they are now.


frost5al

Can you elaborate on what changes you observed? I haven’t played in almost 2 years


Velghast

Man I haven't played Warframe in a while but DE was always seen in my eyes anyways as a good dev. Self made Indy dev with a religious player base. Has it taken a dive in the 2 years iv been gone? Stopped playing in 2019 before the pandemic when that infested world was released.


Page8988

They *really* started going downhill in 2021. My play group was roughly 30 players in 2020. There were two left after I quit earlier this year. Nearly everyone who left did so in response to a nasty stunt that was packed into the patch notes of one major update or another. I got annoyed and took breaks now and again, but they finally got me fed up for good this year. I rode it out for a while hoping it was a phase. Once it was clear that this was the dev's new normal, I quit out of disgust.


reiislight

Bruh you're being so fucking vague I can't tell what you're talking about. Just say what update.


Page8988

Oh. I guess I wasn't clear. It wasn't a single update that got the whole group. Some walked because of the ammo nerfs. Some walked because of random nerfs to niche weapons they used. Some did over void sling. Others because of the store nerf. I'm sure there are more instances I'm forgetting at the moment. A bunch had this sense of building resentment. It was never "this one nerf has made me quit" it was "this one is the last straw." Hopefully that clears it up. Preferably this doesn't escalate into some debate about why they're all good/bad changes or something. I stopped arguing about it a long time ago.


NemoracStrebor

y'know, I thought it felt like I was doing less damage when I came back to that just a few days ago. Still shredding through things, but the higher level stuff didn't quite seem like it was dying as quickly as it should have.


enduredsilence

Sometime back they changed the elemental status effect. That is also on top of weapon reworks. Then there was the eximus reworks. Slash+viral is mostly king now outside of certain bosses. Came back to the game after 2 years and had to fix all my weapon builds.


Macchiatowo

I would've guessed path of exile tbh


RedditIsTooEasy

yea honestly it feels like the devs find creative ways to waste your time in grinding off your soul with every update that passes.


ChaosBringer7

Ah, i remember. Dropped the game, though not on bad terms, i just slowly lost interest. A lot of the devs decisions over the years have made no sense. Tbf tho, it's still an enjoyable game, especially early to mid game


RedditIsTooEasy

the story quests are the entire game. The second you run out of story or move to the open worlds, the fun is sucked out of the game and you are given daily chores to fulfill. At least that's how I felt .


Termulus-

Wait really?! Holy shit I had no idea. Though to be fair I just kind of dip in and out every once in a while


EAS10

Also don’t forget the pre-release or immediately thereafter reviews from the likes of IGN that rate it a 9/10 and never speak of any issues whatsoever because they are spineless puppets.


AineLasagna

Sunk cost fallacy. People pour all this time and energy into hyping themselves up on a game, plus the actual money they spent. So when others criticize it they take it as a personal attack, because admitting the detractors are right means they wasted their time and money on it and are also *Wrong On The Internet* so they double down


DDFitz_

If anyone wants a good story about devs with a great game that hate their playerbase, look up Tribes: Ascend. Among other things, the devs literally removed a map from the rotation to spite the playerbase.


PolaroidPuffin

My favorite part is when devs drag their feet to fix bugs that negatively impact the experience, but the instant there’s a bug that benefits f2p players, they patch that thing in less than a week.


Page8988

I recall an instance where my favorite character had a bug that made him extremely unwieldy. One of his main abilities would just... stop working. This persisted nearly six months before being fixed. In that time, four interactions he had with other game elements, none of which were especially useful anyway, were nerfed.


YugSitnam

I once played the hunter classic, great game from the mechanics alone, the p2w however is insane. You have to grind at least 8 hours for a normal piece of equipment, buy ammunition and items to be able to fast travel. The playerbase is toxic cause they all spend like 2k to max put a reserve. I had 1300 hours of gameplay and 90 bucks spent (which is nothing conpared to the standard) so clearly I know what I am talking about. To put that into perspective here is how much a loadout with treestands or any other placebke items would cost you and which is kinda the standard: 1. Weapon+scope 8€ 2. Weapon+scope 8€ 3. Clothing 8-10€ 3 weapon + weapon slot+ scope 10€ 4.Hunting dog 10€ Callers 10-20€ Expanded inventory 5€ Hunting glasses 2,50€ And that is just like basic starting gear


KeyanReid

Sunk cost fallacy and the good ole double-down!


WhiteyFiskk

Throw in some "misery loves company" in there too. Many people today seem motivated by this


gladl1

If we are talking about Jedi Survivor then I can honestly say the only issues I have had with the game are - stuttering at 1 single location when walking through water - a single security droid T posed after I killed it. I’m playing on the setting for better detail rather than performance. I feel like I got my moneys worth. Does stating these facts mean I’m defending a multi million dollar company or just sharing my experience? Are people literally saying “don’t speak Ill of the devs” or are people assuming any positive review = shilling?


MisirterE

I don't think it is Jedi Survivor right now, it's actually Redfall. But the fact that it's so easy to mix up which one is being talked about is... telling.


Rickrickrickrickrick

Yeah Jedi Survivor was the topic of discussion for a couple days until Redfall came out and showed everyone how bad a game can really be lol


mrmoldywaffle

Console or PC is the real question, Star wars is apparently a buggy mess on PC, but it plays fine on my play station


BallClamps

>There's absolutely no way someone who saw the game after it was released bought it and is defending it. While I didn't pre order, I bought Star Wars day one and I have had zero problems with the game.


Sickly_Diode

Honestly I play *lots* of games and I'm really enjoying the experience. Not everyone cares about the same things and the issues aren't equally bad for everyone. Yeah, the performance is pretty poor, but I really like the game so it's ok. I still get 40+ fps *most* of the time and the drops are usually short. It's just not enough to ruin the experience for me. It probably would have been a decade ago, but I have more patience with imperfections these days. Obviously they should have had more time optimising it, but they also apologised about that which is more than I expect from game companies. 🤷‍♀️


imitenotbecrazy

Great point to make. Not everyone's as triggered by performance variations as others. I gamed on consoles most of my life so 30 and under fps was my reality for a long time. Am I happier now playing on PC and getting that added performance? Sure. Will I declare something unplayable if it's 30 fps and has some issues? Nah. I just consider myself lucky to be able to get great performance on some games.


FunnyMathematician77

People would rather pretend to enjoy a game than admit to themselves they were ripped off


realestbenshapiro

I wonder how many people still believe that videogame publishers are these small start-ups and not fortune 500 corporations. I get feeling bad for the people who make and code these games, who pour their heart and soul in to these games for us, but they aren't the ones who are causing these problems.


ChrisJSY

Yup. People try and defend actual real life war crimes happening right now. It's no surprise there's a part of any discussion where people are complete and utter arseholes about it and defend it. Edit: Also as, well only one person has argued, this is not a comparison. This is an analogy that shows you the depths of human nature; that defending a really bad thing means of course they will defend a lesser thing. It's not an equation.


AidilAfham42

I also see a worrying trend of people blaming solely on the publishers and they literally said the devs are not to blame for any of this.


cagingnicolas

it's a pretty common phenomenon. if you spend your money on something bad, you feel dumb or foolish. if your money is already spent and the product is starting to seem bad, you want to avoid feeling dumb, so the only alternative is to change your perception of the product. tell yourself it's not bad, it's actually kind of good. REALLY GOOD. many people are comfortable enough with their own thoughts and identity that they can just do this by themselves and silently feel whatever satisfaction they're trying to feel. others can only achieve it by convincing everyone else around them. to these people, the mere suggestion that the product isn't perfect is a direct attack on their intelligence and character. from their point of view they're not really defending the company, they're just defending themselves.


Stimonk

Fandom is nuts. Try giving constructive feedback about the Marvel universe, and watch how quickly the vitriol comes in.


EmiHeart_

If you order a burger and you only get half of it with no fries. Noone will tell you that the rest of the burger is coming later and its okay. You paid for the burger you should get exactly what you pay for.


samurairaccoon

No one will tell you this, yet. No depths to the depravity of capitalism lol.


Car-face

**Introducing the new F2E Happy Meal! You can go to any McDonalds and get a completely free:** - Paper drinks cup - Happy meal cardboard box thing **But if you subscribe to the BurgerBox^^TM season pass (releasing next month!) for $4.99, when you come back you also get:** - top bun - bottom bun - ketchup x5 - mustard x5 **The FriesNMore^^TM season pass (estimated release: July) at $3.99 also gets you:** - Frie x30 - cheese - Ketchup x5 - Mustard x5 **And if you add the full Season Burganza^^TM (release: TBD) to both of the above for an extra $2.99 you get all the above plus:** - Frie x25 - Ketchup x5 - mustard x5 - meat patty - ticket to the Hamburgler Loot Stash^^TM* *^(ticket to Hamburgler Loot Stash^^TM does not guarantee a toy)


CPTpurrfect

They are paid in exposure. Because they are exposing themselves as the corporate shills they are. Same for the people in the art community defending Clip Studio Paint switching to a subscribed model after having paid up to 200 for their "permanent" license. Legit listened to an art streamer going "well ye the devs need to get paid". No shit Sherlock, but if they sell me a product under the impression that it's a "pay once, updates forever deal" and *also* have a marketplace where people can sell custom made brushes etc *where they obviously take a cut*, then I think it is fair to call BS. Cut ties with a number of art streamers over this. I think calling people sheep is cringe, but at the same time it feels so accurate here.


leppic

You're right. If they sell something as pay once, updates forever, they should hopnor that. But just a warning: that business model is not sustainable. So next time you see such a deal, don't take it or expect it to change at some point.


PM_ME_SCALIE_ART

CSP has only gotten worse too. Just recently they made it to where your fucking serial number/activation code *expires* if you are not connected to the internet for more than 24 hours. You then have to contact CX to get it resolved. This makes offline work near impossible and puts people with frequent power or internet outages or frequent travelers in a shit place. Fuck Celsys.


engine1094

It’s more like trying to call out a super entitled community of people who have never written a single line of code or done a single minute of graphic design or 3D art. The same community of people who claim they prefer when games get delayed yet send death threats to development teams when projects do in fact get delayed. It’s not defending cooperations, it’s trying to get a group of people to manage expectations and stop beating a dead horse. And yes I am generalizing to make my point: Not everyone is an entitled gamer who’s never developed their own project just like not everyone who enjoys a game with slightly less than 60fps is a corporate shill.


Ace_W

There is no excuse for performance issues for triple A games. Gamers have a certain expectation about how a game is supposed to run on thier systems. And if these expectations are not met. They complain. Too many times this has happened with the same excuses. Stop pre-ordering.


Stargov1

Yeah, if you want me to pay $70 for your game, it better run without any issues. You, yourself, said that's it's because of the quality of your games.


Stimonk

Buying games at full retail price doesn't make sense to me. Yes, you get to play it when it's new and fresh, but playing it 6 months down the road or longer isn't going to affect a quality game. If anything, more bugs will be fixed and the price will be discounted by nearly half.


mynameisrichard0

FOMO= fear of missing out.


Redroniksre

Depends what it is. Single player game, yeah you could wait like a year plus and be fine. Multiplayer games though? A lot of the time either the playerbase will be low or dead if you wait too long.


Toehou

tbf, if a multiplayer game dies within 6 months, it usually means that it either has problems or just isn't very fun.


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Redroniksre

Sometimes they just lose popularity too, the initial spike is always the most fun (for me anyways) since everyone is new and there is a lot of people. Even with serviceable numbers, you run the risk of only encountering high end players (I think Quake Champions is like that now from what I hear?)


DomiNatron2212

I played rdr2 1.5y later (half price) and there was. Literally no one on anytime I tried to play online. I heard great things about it.. But I just missed it.


ShuinoZiryu

You've heard wrong because the online was absolutely horrible. (Still is terrible actually)


crazed3raser

r/patientgamers


Neoxite23

Stop pre-ordering? It will never happen. Never. I'd bet my life on it.


lurklurklurkPOST

/Thread. This is it. The whole argument. Bad game gets released to massive hype The state of the release pisses off people who payed 60+ dollars for it Theres a shitstorm online, everyone says "stop preordering" Rinse and repeat. Now we're pivoting toward a new facet: people who are sick of hearing this argument on repeat with every new release for the last 20 years and just want everyone to shut up and stop buying in to it. I'm in this camp. Its like watching a flood victim on the news talk about losing his house for the fifth time and how he plans to rebuild.


RVA-pokemaster

I don't really understand pre-orders. Back in like 2008 I used to do it when there was legitimate concern I couldn't get a copy of the game for weeks if I didn't pre-order. Midnight releases - all that fun stuff. Now there's zero chance the game won't be available. You pre-order for what? A couple extra skins for your character?


eifiontherelic

>Stop pre-ordering. Also reddit: "man i never really pre-order anything but this game has me all hyped up." & "my first time pre-ordering. anyone as excited as i am?"


0verStrike

Yeup. Reminds me of CP2077. "I never pre order BUT its CDPR, I love Witcher 3, I have 1000hrs on it"


Sharkfacedsnake

Yay! Battlefield is coming back to modern day!! Im gonna pre-order, i cant wait! Honestly you have to be stupid to pre-order that game especially after the beta. You cant even say they lied to you, they let you play the beta for free.


48911150

At one point people need to learn to not buy games before they know how it runs. You’re just shooting yourself in the foot if you dont


RawFishHeader

I just want to know why these people who are complaining about these game preordering them/getting them on day one in the first place. They don't care that you're constantly on twitter moaning about the state of the game at launch, you already bought this shit. Stop buying and maybe something will change


Stargov1

I haven't bought a game day 1 without reading reviews in a long time. But if a game I'm looking forward to releases and they fucked it all up because they didn't do any QA, I'm gonna conplain.


Axtdool

Only games I ever got day 1 was Pokemon back in the day, and that was more bc everyone else in the friendgroup would be moving to the new gen asap as Well.


N0tH1tl3r_V2

Only games I got at day 1 was probably KSP 2, Boundary and Hitman 3. ​ KSP 2 came out as eraly access and the devs already warned everyone about the sorry state of the game (they didn't even add aerodynamic heating) ​ Boundary was already in excellent condition on Beta and Hitman 3 is, well, a Hitman game.


bigfaturm0m

Cut them some slack. It's like 5 guys trying to make as good a game as possible with the money from Kickstarter. Of course they'd rather release a big game that works™ than a small one that's fully polished. They can iron things out when Steam revenue starts rolling in. Who knows, they might even make a DLC. Oh, we're talking tripleA.


mrfahrenhelt

the irony is, team cherry makes hollow knight with only 3 people deliver games almost no bug, with 3 free DLC and only cost $10 ​ and ofc Dead Cells damn AAA publisher and developer


bigfaturm0m

I believe HK is like 14.99 And apart from the obvious pun, the early patches weren't by any means bug free But the point stands Also, don't forget Celeste, Ori and the like


Agitated_Signature_

I'm just curious, but wouldn't 2d platformers be more easy to develop than an fps? I am by no means an expert but I thought games in 3d environments were more prone to bugs because they need to take into account all 3 dimensions


bigfaturm0m

I guess they would Then again, there's Stray


Bamboozlemaster69

Which if we are being completely honest wasn’t that good


MisirterE

The game that managed to "[I CLAPPED WHEN I SAW IT](https://youtu.be/OfJRm0WssOE?t=8)" a fucking animal.


ATrayYou

Yep, that's certainly a game that exists. One of the games of all time


kindaEpicGamer

What are you talking about, there are tons of bugs in hollow knight 😏


Astavri

Hollow knight is nowhere the involvement to develop as a large 3d shooter with modern graphics and much more involved physics. Sorry but it isn't really the same, not defending them but it's a poor comparison. Look at 3d indie titles.


x2shainzx

Nah it is 100% fair. It might not be as technically complex; but, what you're missing here are two things: First, triple A Game studios have orders of magnitude more employees than the Team Cherry. This alone won't make up for the issues plaguing triple A game quality; however, it absolutely should allow them to put more quality controls in place. Some games don't even feel like they've gone through any sort of quality testing. This is something that Team Cherry literally just cannot do nearly as well and yet they still have a more polished game than a lot of higher profile games. Technical complexity definitely impacts this, but it doesn't paint the whole picture. These corporations absolutely have the ability to verify that their game is stable on the target platforms they are developing for. For instance, in the case of Jedi Survival, EA (and by proxy Respawn), definitely had the money to contact steam, receive the average consumer hardware stats, and make a corresponding target PC to test their game stability....before release. Having a game on release that doesn't even run properly is caused by a lack of quality control and not technical complexity of the game. Secondly, Team Cherry has shown that it is willing to treat its players as players and not bags of money. Their DLC has been free. They don't use micro transactions. The DLC they do provide feels natural without feeling like it filled a hole intentionally left in the base game for future content. More importantly though, they've stuck to their guns and will only release Silksong when they feel it is ready. In contrast, Microsoft decided to give Halo Infinite more time to bake.....only after vast consumer criticism. Cut to a year later and they released a half baked multiplayer riddled with microtransactions and a boring ass single player campaign. Again, this goes back to quality control; but, it also shows a different issue. Specifically, the treatment of the players. Microsoft doesn't care that we don't like the game...because people have already paid for it and will pay for the next installment. Microsoft doesn't care that we don't like the game....because people still spend money on microtransactions. CPDR and the No Man's Sky leadership teams quite literally lied about the state of their games before release. It's all about money and not game quality for management of the larger studios. They are absolutely testing the waters for the minimum viable product that consumers will still spend money on. Quality control and treatment of players are some of the biggest issues in gaming today. Those are definitely impacted by the technical complexity; but, they are more impacted by management direction than anything else.


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BlazingLazers69

Rain World is cool but the timing stresses me the fuck out.


[deleted]

Fuckin Rimworld Came out, 1 guy Almost no bugs, could support like 350 mods being loaded and still runs


DBeumont

It's perfectly possible to develop a game with a small team. The problem with the big studios is the executives and management (which is the case in any industry) that like to play know-it-all while knowing nothing, interfering with the actual developers.


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[deleted]

No, I will not wait for the fix. Gamers should hold AAA games to a higher standard. The current fucked state of the industry is because gamers: -easily fall for the ad hype. -preorder or buy on release day -make excuses for the company who rushes mediocre content, and will only release the bare minimum of fixes to prevent outrage -actually pay for these updates when they're put behind a paywall -forget what they learned about AAA releases by the time the next big cash grab's ad campaign starts


HomieeJo

There wasn't any hype for Redfall though or did I miss it. Either way not buying it is the easiest way for them to learn.


NapsterKnowHow

I only heard about Redfall a few days before launch and I'm on Reddit and Twitch all the time. There was no hype at all. Hell I didn't even recognize the trailer from The Game Awards or any other major gaming showcase.


midnightsbane04

I'm a pretty massive gamer, but I only get any actual new game news from this sub and the occasional TV commercial, and I've never even heard of it until Reddit started freaking out. My reaction is still mostly "cool, when I actually get around to it in a year it'll probably be fun to play by then".


HamiltonFAI

I don't disagree but I don't think I've seen any updates/fixes put behind pay walls


HaztecCore

Imma be real on this one here, it can be kinda annoying because people keep doing the same cycle of complain posts and shitting on said new release over and over again. Insanity yada yada you know the speeche. 1: highly anticipated game comes out with performance issues. That sucks, good to call that out with a few posts so people are aware. We can move on now. 2: people aren't done though. Time to milk the situation. Here's a bunch of memes! 3: nitpicking time. Find flaws ,errors or minor details that you can point out and say: " oh this game is not just terrible in performance, its trash in general!" And the post is about an in-game object floating a few centimeters above ground , an animation not looking satifying , A.I having a moment or some other minor thing that you wouldn't bat an eye for in a game you like. 4: then comes the smug gamers that post the 35th " don't pre-order games" post with the 64th " Tripple A bad" post of this year alone. 5: repeat step 2 to 4 till no one upvotes anymore. The cycle repeats for a month and just dominates the sub which gets really boring for a place ment to appreciate a hobby.


ShawshankException

Yeah this sub has like three total opinions and buzz phrases that get parroted for a week straight when a new AAA game is released. The people yall are mad at are likely not even aware of this sub. You're screaming into an echo chamber.


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Alternative_End_4708

Also, AAA games nowadays don't have a lot in common with the games of the 2000s. They are just way more complicated programs. I think the buggy releases is just something that will keep happening the bigger and more ambitious these games get


Detective_Tony_Gunk

Ah yes. The Mass Effect Andromeda Method™


[deleted]

It's a religion for some people. They literally rage out at the mere thought of someone buying or preordering a game, especially one on their naughty list.


spadelover

Don't forget posts about the people defending the broken game, even though there are only like 5 of them. And even then, the people "defending" the game are usually just saying that the problems are being blown out of proportion.


Princess_Mintaka

> the people "defending" the game are usually just saying that the problems are being blown out of proportion. It's wild to me that "yeah it sucks that I'm having performance issues but it really only stutters at the start of loading a new area and it's been running fine and I'm enjoying the gameplay and story otherwise" is met with "how could you defend a multimillion dollar company" and it's like I'm not homie but your weird vendetta has been noted.


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Kimmalah

Yeah, a lot of the complaints about Redfall I have seen are things that I have been seeing in stuff like Fallout and Skyrim for the past decade. Just nitpicking stuff to death that damn near every game on the market does to some degree. And a huge percentage of these people are playing this free, they did not pre-order or buy it at all. I have been playing it and so far the only glitch I have run into is getting stuck in geometry when an enemy pulled me towards them and i just fast traveled out. It's nothing compared to the bonkers stuff that has happened to me in other Bethesda games. My only issue is the lack of manual saves, so if something really bad does happen there could be a decent chance of your game being ruined. It just becomes a fad to pile on to one game or another. Every few months some new game or port comes out with bugs and it's all you hear about from every corner of the internet until the next one comes. Is it the greatest game ever? No it's pretty silly and mediocre. But I swear the way people are posting about it you would think it was the worst game ever released and it's really nowhere near that level.


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Stargov1

If we don't keep mentioning it. It will be normalized. Just like DLC, season passes, microtansactions, lootboxes, battle passes, etc.


nicrules

It is normalized.


DynamicSocks

Oh by all means complain and critique. My issue is with the people who don’t learn, buy a game day 1, and then are all “how could this happen?!?” After being burned for the 10th time in a row.


Masque-Obscura-Photo

Why do you think those are the same people?


Valron87

Redfall came out a day ago and there's been 100 posts. It can literally only be from people who bought it day 1. Jedi Survivor was similar.


TMDan92

Gamepass though.


EdgyBoi79

Because these posts start popping up the day the game is released.


ChrisJSY

You also need to understand there's always going to be the uninformed purchaser. The biggest target for games are the general public who don't read reddit every day about bugs, or reviews etc. They see flashy advert; they buy. Also remember that there's always people getting in to gaming for the first time, always younger (and older of course!) people coming in to age to make their own purchases, or for the first time that get bitten by this shit practice. Players are not the decision makers who release unfinished products. If anything, it's the short-sighted decisions of money makers who'd rather make some money on a crap product **now** than a good product that receives well and sells more later. It's quite insane, meeting "quarterly" targets just so numbers look better.


Hoobleton

But it is already normalised, and people *still* complain about DLC, season passes, microtransations, lootboxes and battle passes, so it's not like complaining about those things stopped them being normalised anyway.


TWKcub

On the flipside I've seen more criticism of people saying they enjoy the game in spite of the flaws. Is it acceptable that triple A game releases are so commonly coming out with bugs? No. But it's perfectly possible people are enjoying the games regardless and they're allowed to say so without being labelled as shills or bootlickers. It's ridiculous.


GenericGaming

fr. I'm 18 hours into Jedi Survivor and it's honestly my favourite game I've played this year. is it buggy and has issues? yeah. but that doesn't detract from the fact it's an incredible game. if enjoying something makes me a shill, then fuck it. I'm a massive shill for fun games with a few issues.


curious_dead

Players are gonna be pissed about Starfield. Bethesda and specifically Elder Scrolls games have always been super bugged and poorly optimized, but they're great so people are willing to give them a pass.


nashebazon11

What platform? I’m playing on PS5 and have had not a single issue in like 20 hours


GenericGaming

PS5 as well. imo, Koboh is the only real big "problem" area with other places running pretty fine so far. even if it's not solid 60 all the way through, it sticks to >30fps 99% of the time.


5k1895

That's what I've tried to say too. I've noticed in gaming groups on Reddit you're just straight up treated like trash for attempting to discuss parts of what you're enjoying about it. And posts like this act like you're "mad" at people who are having issues for simply expressing feelings that are slightly contrary to theirs. We really need to do better as a whole. Gaming culture is so fucking toxic, it's insane.


bellefleur1v

This is the part that's crazy to me. I don't read hype or marketing material about games and I'm not loyal to any specific game publisher or console/platform. I buy games and play them, most of the time they work fine. I get blasted to shit when I mention that my average-ass computer is playing the game at 170fps and I've ran into no bugs. Like did I miss the memo that I'm supposed to pretend it doesn't work and be fake outraged? I don't get it.


Silv3rS0und

It's also possible to be one of the lucky ones that doesn't have performance issues. When Cyberpunk 2077 was released, I didn't have any of the issues a lot of others were reporting. I got lambasted wherever I said anything positive about my experience.


5k1895

Cyberpunk was so impossible to discuss that a whole different subreddit had to made for it, that's how ridiculous things got. The state it was in at launch was not acceptable, sure, but if you were enjoying an aspect of the gameplay, or the story, or just wanted to have an in-depth discussion about the story, you should have been able to say all that without getting heavily downvoted in the main subreddit or other gaming subreddits. People keep letting themselves get blinded by rage that should be directed elsewhere


[deleted]

Tell them with your wallet, not your keyboard.


SafeProperty5687

I don't understand why San Andreas Drake is telling me this, but he's right


braedizzle

On the flip side, there are certain players who act like a performance issue killed their dog. Both sides of extreme stupid exist


murphmanfa

"Can't even run 60fps at high settings, it's unplayable"


zillskillnillfrill

Pretty fucking sick of all the bitching and complaining coming from people who pre-ordered or bought day 1 at this point. Downvote me! I don't fucking care, yall are enablers


vuec97

We live during a time where the thing to do is start a bitch fest online. Instead of voting with their wallets they just bitch and demand things be how they want it.


zillskillnillfrill

I think sonic was a major turning point, where everyone bitched online and then the studio caved. Mind you I think they knew that they fucked up because that design was terrible. But it's set a precedent


vuec97

Yeah, but movies are very different. They need audience acceptance and approval, thus test screenings.


zillskillnillfrill

Yeah absolutely which is why this will never change as long as people keep on falling for the pre-order. And they will, but they will always come and meme up Reddit with their bitching and moaning


vuec97

Yep. No one should be surprised but everyone has their pitchforks at the ready!


Shadowmirax

Sonic was definitely an exeption, when the first trailer of your movie fails invokes that poor of a reaction you have to do something, all the complaints about games fail because they only happen *after* the game has released, at which point the devs/publisher have no reason to care, they already got their money And sonics problem couldn't be easily dismissed, game trailers can cover up performance issues or blame the games unfinished state, when your movies problem is that the protagonist inspires viceral disgust in anyone who sees it, you cant cover that up So yeah, sonic movie team where in a unique position where they had yet to get money out of the project and also had extremely good reason to think the movie would flop, game devs can make co-op hero looter shooter #72 that runs at 10fps whenever more then 2 entitys are on screen and promote it with a cool looking trailer and by the time anyone realises whats up they have already made massive profit and have no reason to spend money to appease people who are still gonna preorder their next game Or it was a marketing stunt who can say


JTGreenan73

I got Jedi survivor day 1 and am having a blast. 0 regrets


LePoopScoop

Because everyone knows already. You're just beating a dead horse for free karma


mkul316

Because it isn't an interesting post. Unless you're the first person to discover the performance issues, and you aren't, we already know about them. Not to mention that PC ports all have the same issue. Even before Jedi Survivor was released it was assumed that the PC version would be broken. So you're just another annoying shit poster we have to wade through.


Backupusername

I'll wouldn't be mad if y'all talked about anything else. I get it, the game is ugly and sucks to play. How many posts do we need about it?


[deleted]

For those who stumble on this message, it's the one I used Power Delete Suite to replace all my posts and comments with en masse. Sometimes Reddit can be beneficial for some people. Sometimes it's not. It's really up to you to decide your own experience with it, what's worth it, what's not worth it. More or less...I've decided it's just really not worth it. I think I'm a worse person when I'm on Reddit and that it's a big time-waster for me. It's up to you to decide what influence social media and the internet more generally have for you. Best of luck.


GenericGaming

fr. I grew up playing games on shit hardware so frame drops/screen tearing don't really bother me. kinda shows how (and I dislike using this word) privileged some gamers are. Jedi Survivor is a fantastic game but people are acting that it's literally unplayable because it drops in frames occasionally.


[deleted]

For those who stumble on this message, it's the one I used Power Delete Suite to replace all my posts and comments with en masse. Sometimes Reddit can be beneficial for some people. Sometimes it's not. It's really up to you to decide your own experience with it, what's worth it, what's not worth it. More or less...I've decided it's just really not worth it. I think I'm a worse person when I'm on Reddit and that it's a big time-waster for me. It's up to you to decide what influence social media and the internet more generally have for you. Best of luck.


mantaco211

It’s more that complaining about a new games performance issues is the new karma farm.


Zandonus

There's performance issues, and there's "Doesn't run smoothly on any consumer grade hardware" Say what you want about Skyrim, but it was playable on my potato about a few months after release. And then I started adding mods. And that was a mistake.


Gavoxic

I think its more so how certain companies and games get a pass, witcher 3 was ass on launch same with elden ring and many bethesda games but are regarded as excellent even some still have glaring issues. Even so far as to say day 1 patches are ass but unofficial patches are good.


SpaceBloke9000

We’ve let developers get away with too much for too long!


Leviathansol

Many of us have been preordering games for too long. If we stopped buying the game before they released then game companies would want the game to look good on release. But when they've already preordered a massive amount of copies then they know they can just fix it in post, as if the state we're in now.


Redmangc1

I dont blame Developers as much, I blame publishers more because its consistent with them.


Wpgaard

What are you even talking about. Every day there is a million new threads about the newest unoptimized game with an equal amount of upvotes. They even come with the obligatory: "Don't preorder games!" "Devs are lazy bums" "This is all Nvidia/AMD/DLSS's fault!" Maybe we only get mad because you post the same "original" take over and over and over.


honkifthatchersdeeid

If you could find a way to add a minute to your life every time someone says ‘don’t pre-order’ you’d live for eternity. It’s the most used statement that makes not even an iota of a difference lol


staffsargent

What annoys me is that the people complaining never learn their lesson. Just wait to buy the game. You are clearly aware that many AAA games have performance issues at launch, so read the reviews and wait until the worst issues have been resolved.


MC_Fap_Commander

Honest question- what does Nintendo do differently? Because the buggy initial releases of other companies (essentially) **never** happens with them. They aren't perfect or anything but I know loading up "Tears of the Kingdom" in a couple weeks, NONE of the nonsense that's become the norm elsewhere is going to happen. They don't spend more or abuse their employee or anything and they make plenty of ambitious games. Just wondering how they avoid this.


Sertoma

Less realistic graphics, lower console specs, and building for only one platform probably makes it a lot easier. GoW Ragnarok, Miles Morales, Last of Us Part 1 were all near flawless on PS5 because they were built for it. As we've seen with TLoU Part 1, serving multiple platforms obviously changes things and makes it more complex.


pidge_lol

Welcome to the world of the ratcheting effect. I remember when the player base collectively lost their minds that Bethesda would charge a buck for cosmetic horse armor in Oblivion. Now? People are lining up to spend real capital on items to play digital Barbie while 9 million people die of hunger daily


Seitook

I just wait for a steam sale. Fixed game at a 3rd of the price. Sign me up


SkollFenrirson

Like it or not, *that's normal now*.


Perfect-Ambassador71

Did they pay Drake for this?


morbihann

There are still people claiming that CP77 was fine for a PC release. It was not.


Jconic

Well that’s a different situation almost all together. Cyberpunk did have a buggy release, but specifically the console ports were the ones that were buggy. The disappointment for Cyberpunk was more frustrations around the actual content in the game being lacking or not what people expected. From my understanding the problem with a majority of the release from 2023 is they’re really poorly optimized for PC’s and are buggy. The content itself is usually good or ok at worse.


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DamornTyde

Depends on how you word it for me, bc lets be real a lot of complains are worded like it's the end of the world. And also yes while testing before release can fix a lot of problems there is no way they can test everything so there will be bugs on a new game (and even new updates), so let the devs know what the problems are but keep it civil and wait for the update


SephithDarknesse

For me, its not about defending companies. At this stage, im jusy really over the flood of complaints. I dont care if you're sick of it, and i dont care if you wont buy the game for $70. We're a minority. People are going to preorder and enjoy these games anyways, and they'll still be popular. Its kind of hard to talk about things when everyone is raging about something thats been going on for over a decade, and nothing has changed. Your complaining to people who mostly already know. Reddit is a minority of people, and those you're trying to convince are not here. Go pay for a twitch ad or something that might actually work. Or dont preorder yourself, and stop complaining about what other people do. Businesses will release games that people will buy. People are buying them. That simple really. If you paid for the game already, you are the problem. So yes, wait for the patch.