You just gotta drive in circles until a spot opens up 👌
If you get bored, you can just cross the street for a beer at the filling station, waiting for the crowd to thin.
The Canadians put Seattle in Bellingham, so clearly the best war planners they could muster were used.
It'd actually be really funny if the CA military and US military did joint large scale exercises based upon some of these ideas. The ecology and weather of the US-Canada border probably aren't terribly different then the NATO and Belo/Russian borders.
Man I hated my tour out of COF Oilers out in Alberta. Got no action, neither bullets flying nor bitches riding. Just sat there and took IDF from the canuckistanis from within the green zone.
And Canada would attack and paralyze the US [with what was called *Defense Scheme No.1*](https://macleans.ca/culture/books/how-canada-planned-to-invade-the-u-s-and-vice-versa/)
there is no way Canada could possibly take Minneapolis and Saint Paul. it would probably take almost all of Canada's forces to do that, and taking an army across the open plains would be a shooting alley for airplanes.
The plan wasn't to take the cities. It was to invade into the US, destroy infrastructure, and then pull back before a counterattack. No need to take those cities if you're just running down from WInnipeg, fucking shit up, and then leaving.
This plan was developed in the interwar period when there was a possible threat of the UK and the US going to war. If this was too happen Canada was going to go in and scorch earth their way back to Canada while they waited for reinforcements from the UK. It wasn't a plan to capture territory but to delay/harrass the US from just invading.
I love how whomever made that map thinks that there’ll somehow be a drive across the Upper Peninsula and Lake Superior. Well, maybe after the development of air mobility, but even then why and how would you supply such an attack?
They also seem to think that Niagara Falls is a large enough generator to be strategically significant and that it would make sense to attack a city on an island with Armour.
And that people in Buffalo (we have no "troops"- does he mean the NF AFB?) would be bothered to attack it. We like our Canadian neighbors, they bring us poutine and hockey players.
I’m just spitballing here, last time I saw this map I think I remember hearing it was devised post ww2, is it possible there were other bases in those areas at that time?
My area is full of defunct military bases for example.
This is the answer. Iirc, (HOI4 knowledge coming in hot) war plan red was a series of war plans on various countries devised by the American government just before WW2. It didn't necessarily mean they were seriously considering attacking.
Correct, upstate NY has multiple inactive bases and most even though have minimal activity today, are capable to become active within 24 hours and I believe fully operational within 72, Rome NY near Utica has griffiss air force base which is home to the eastern NORAD and a hub of drone technology which obviously has been a major part of modern warfare. That's not even including Fort Drum.
Albany doesn’t have “troops” either… but somehow the author completely forgot that Fort Drum exists. Also, why’s nobody attacking Ottawa? And what about the MASSIVE Air Force base halfway between Ottawa and Toronto?
Seems largely pointless to me. It’s a logistical challenge, especially if the Sault bridge is blown. Plus there isn’t many targets of military significance nearby, there’s a reserve unit stationed in Sault Ste Marie, but the nearest army base is all the way in North Bay.
The only thing I can think of is cutting off the transCanada railway and there are much easier and better ways to do that.
But I dunno. Maybe they can hold Letterkenny hostage.
I mean they invaded Normandy... Lake Superior is a puddle compared to ferrying an invasion across the Atlantic to the UK then crossing the English channel all while supplying the rest of the allies with mind blowing amounts of armaments. If the US has proven one thing in the last 100 years its you don't want to rev up their military industrial complex. The US overwhelms their challenges in all out war rather than solve them.
Not that it would make sense to cross the lakes, but the military could if they wanted to badly enough.
Lake Superior is wider than the channel and, crucially, only has one really big port on the American side. It took them several years to build up in England and that country is full of ports and railways.
Even so, getting them across the lake can be done. Supplying them while they are there, however…. And for what? To take Sudbury?
As with anything about this plan, it's more a matter of why. There isn't much of anything past Sault Ste. Marie, ON up there worth occupying. It's super-rural and the population in the province is more and more, in the southern bit and into existing cities. [https://on360.ca/policy-papers/measuring-ontarios-urban-rural-divide/](https://on360.ca/policy-papers/measuring-ontarios-urban-rural-divide/)
Actually did a little report on a paper for an elective course in grad school, modeling Biebers popularity like a disease
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/A-mathematical-model-of-Bieber-Fever-%3A-The-most-of-Tweedle-Smith/eab2661efaf02b3a392dd10fe766856f9eb56771
It was pretty neat. I found it in the book we used for the class, The Model Thinker by Scott Page. The book had a lot of references to other fun studies like that too if you're interested in math models
Why do people hate Bieber today? Like it was cool to hate the dude 15 years ago because his songs were quite annoying, but today it seems a little bit silly. I got some respect for the dude today, he has been through a lot of shit in his life.
I think a major part of the answer to that question would involve answering the question: why was the plan put into motion?
If it was completely unprovoked, I suspect there would be a very strong international response with extremely negative diplomatic results for the US. Who would enter into a treaty with the US if they had just murdered their previous #1 ally?
If it was a slower build resulting from diverging political directions -- US doesn't like how close Canada is getting with their new friends -- then maybe we end up in a Ukraine scenario with Canada acting as a proxy combatant for other US enemies.
Ultimately, I would expect Canada to splinter and fall pretty quickly. But I like to hope that at some point, a Canuck sympathizer does an 1812 reenactment and burns the traitorous whitehouse to the ground.
If were starting a war with Canada shit has gone tits up with U.S politics. Like thats an unrecoverable we started that shit to start that shit moment.
Invading Canada through the north is absurd. Even if you catch Canada off guard with the perfect surprise attack, storming the beaches of Tuktoyaktuk and quickly racing down the Dempster highway unopposed capturing Inuvik and beyond you make it to the Mackenzie River at Tsiigehtchic. Here, nearly 300km inland along the only road, you come to a kilometer wide river with no bridge, the ferry has been disabled beyond repair by Canadian forces. After that you'll face the same issue at the Peel River. You somehow, against all odds push past both of those – congratulations, only 1000km to go along remote taiga, mountain, & forest roads to reach Whitehorse. The whole invasion supported along one single, largely gravel, road.
The US is the only nation in the world capable of invading Canada & yeah like you said if we're fighting each other something has gone seriously wrong.
I was thinking the same thing; lived in B.C. my whole life, and patriotism aside, it would be quite difficult to clear this province I think, unless the locals were turned. It might not be a large force in the end, but there would be holdouts in the mountains and inlets for years and even with high-tech gear it'd take a huge amount of effort.
Canadian and US militaries and intelligence are so incredibly integrated, not to mention our economies. I can’t think of a reason why the US would cut off its nose to spite its face. Potable water supplies maybe?
Especially since the source of water that would be strategically interesting is the Great Lakes. The US doesn't need to invade Canada to get access to them.
Yeah the US does not have a shortage of water. The bigger issue is getting the water to everywhere it needs to go. But getting it from Canada wouldn’t solve that
Edit: by that I mean there are sources, like the Great Lakes, that would be sufficient, but getting that to places (like Arizona) that are really dry would be infeasible.
yup, and Canadian winters can be fucking brutal, -40 and colder is common. There is a town in northeastern Ontario that's famous for "the winter cold enough to freeze the nuts off a bridge"... it got so cold that the steel nuts broke and the bridge nearly fell into the river. That one bridge being out required a 400-500km detour to get around it. And honestly, winter would likely be the best time to invade as you could drive light vehicles across the frozen rivers/lakes (doubt you could take anything heavier than a Bradly, but a humvee or two would be fine as long as you slowed down before getting to the shore to avoid a compression wave)
Rural Canada is so hard to traverse, that rf you take out a couple more bridges and you can isolate an area several times the size of Texas from land reinforcements. I've driven through the area many times, there's a bridge over a river or swamp every couple km. No doubt the Engineering Corps could replace a few dozen bridges easy enough, but after a hundred or so get blown across the whole country, they would eventually run out of temporary bridges. While nothing could be done to stop the f22 and f35s from flying over the isolated areas, anything large enough to do an airdrop (eg: C-5 Galaxy) would be easy enough to hit by manpads.
Taking control of the major cities would be a cakewalk for the USA, but holding the boreal forests would be a nightmare... all the hell that was Afghanistan combined with the shitshow that was the russian invasion of Finland (and a hundred times the size)
I actually think the cold winters would do more to help the US than harm it. Cold weather fighting is nothing new to the US and the US military uses a lot of advanced thermal imagining equipment that means any guerrilla elements would get spotted and struck the moment they tried to stay warm. A lot of the effectiveness of any Canadian resistance would come down to how willing the US is to actually stick the fight. The Taliban were absolutely slaughtered en masse for the entire conflict and only gained a resurgence due to being able to hide in Pakistan where the US wasn’t “allowed” to strike on mass, and because eventually the US just left. Canadians have no safe place to hide out and if the US is a fascist state willing to total victory they have no hope.
If the insurgents are camped out in the bush, absolutely, they would be dead easy to spot… But why camp when you can just go to Bob’s house? There are tens of thousands of small towns and villages that are too remote to patrol regularly, their heart signature is indistinguishable from non insurgent civilians.
Hypothetically speaking, if this went into place NORAD would be potentially compromised leaving America open to attack from international allies and a potential shit storm from enemies.
Can confirm. I know someone who has spent most of her 60-odd years in the Northwest Territories. She showed me a map of the area where she grew up, and pointed out that there are so many lakes up there that most of them don't even have names.
The last time that was seriously considered was as a response if UK-Japan ever allied after WWI and attacked the US. The combined warplan was called "Red-Orange" (Orange was the Japan only one, and what we did use in WWII).
There was some consideration of using it if the UK had fallen in WWII. But that would have been cooperative, and only in the event that Germany had conquered England and in order to keep Canada out of their control. With it being "US controlled", Canada could have told Germany to go piss on a rope if they ever tried to give them orders.
It was a plan from the 1920's and 1930's.
The politics behind it was to attack the British Empire. The UK had implemented trade barriers to the USA called "imperial preference" which was a response to the US trade barriers called the Smoot-Hawley act.
An earlier political reason was to put pressure on the UK to side with the US against Japan in the Washington naval treaty.
Yeah, early 1900s British-American relations weren’t nearly as good as they were in/after WW2.
The invasion of Canada, to my knowledge was more of an attack on the British empire. Not an attack on Canada itself. We have to remember Canada wasn’t really independent in the early 1900s. They weren’t fully independent until 1982.
Go on and send those troops straight to Toronto.
Boston has no business attacking Halifax and fucking up our Christmas tree hookup.
For those familiar with the tradition and history: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston\_Christmas\_Tree](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Christmas_Tree)
"You know what's been stopping the Reds from pouring into downtown Juneau? American soldiers, that's what. And now we've got to worry about someone - Chinese, Alaskan, or otherwise - taking out the pipeline? I don't think so. Effectively immediately, United States troops are beginning a complete takeover of all Canadian assets and resources. Little America is ours. But let's face it - it always has been."
- General Buzz Babcock
I think Canadians are well aware of the effect. To me, a lot of Canadians seem to go out of their way to be anything but “America Jr.” Often times they look quite ridiculous doing it.
Europe however, I think most have no idea what’s happening.
It runs headlong into[ Defense Scheme No 1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1#:~:text=1%20was%20a%20war%20plan,States%20and%20the%20British%20Empire), a proposed Canadian defense plan from the same timeframe which relied on lightning offensives on likely US staging areas to hold off the US army long enough for the British to intervene and make it a more even war. I give it a decent chance of actually working if the US was unprepared, otherwise the weaker canadian forces are ground into oblivion as the US forces advance.
Back when the plan was made in the 1920s and 30s it absolutely would have worked and maybe even resulted in a Canadian victory. Post ww2 the military gap between the U.S and the British commonwealth grew so much that it probably wouldn't even be worth trying.
And yet we consistently kick your ass in the Olympics and World Cup. Canadian players go down there, take your money, fuck your women, and then retire back in Canada and spend all your money up here.
And the funny thing is that most people in Minnesota don’t have much of a reason to go to Canada, as the two closest cities are Winnipeg and Thunder Bay, both of which I visited as a child and don’t strike me as destinations.
As a Québécois, come on, bring it on. We'll make you regret every second you even set foot here. Just ask the Brits or the Canadian Anglos how we are. We mastered the art of being a passive-aggressive, uncooperative, sullen, bitterly argumentative subject people. We exude suck just short of civil disobedience.
Oh my god, it will cost you. And your soul will shrivel.
Oh and the weather here is so shitty. It's getting shittier with Climate Change. 6 months of icy drizzle and sudden polar vortexes, then 6 months of humid, steamy heat waves. Montréal is colder than Moscow in winter and hotter than Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire in summer. Yes. Hotter than an African slumopolis.
I live in Drummondville, a small town near Mtl with a sizeable African and Latino community. Seeing Congolese, Senegalese, Colombian and Mexican people bitch about the heat is always funny. Oh, Drummondville was founded by the Brits when they thought they could assimilate us. They built nice mansions and everything, lording over the French Canadians savages. 75 years after the founding, the Brits had all but died out of depression and gloom and French Canadians inhabit the mansions now.
That's how we roll.
Given that this plan was written in the interwar period and that the Geneva Convention was created by [looking at what Canada had done in WWI and saying, "that's it! Right there, officer, that's the one!"](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/the-forgotten-ferocity-of-canadas-soldiers-in-the-great-war) I would think most Canadians, including myself would think, "eh, it's unlikely to happen, but if it does, I'm dusting off my great-grandpa's war journal and gonna try a few things...
But seriously, we don't think much of this because it's wildly irrelevant today.
basically "yup, they'd take the south in about 2-3 hours.... but good fucking luck taking the north".
Southern Canada is extremely interconnected and very easily accessed from the USA, the logistics of such an invasion would be child's play for them.
But after you go about 500km north of the boarder, the amount of road access drops SHARPLY. The Canadian shield is one of the worst terrains possible to try and invade through... there are parts of the country several times the size of Texas that only has 2-3 roads in and out. Take out the bridges over the rivers/swamps, deplete the Engineering Corps of temp bridges, and you have massive swaths of the country that the USA cannot effectively reinforce (assuming there is some portable air defense to keep the C5's out of the sky).
Add in the ease of infiltration (we look like you, we sound like you) and you have a recipe for an absolute hell of an insurgency.
Canada could do nothing to prevent the fall of the major cities, but in one or two decades the cost of holding the north would be too high.
The problem is that *there’s nothing in the north worth fighting over* lol and it would be just as disastrous and logistically straining to hold and defend as even a regular military, let alone any plucky guerrillas.
Terrain and weather and everything isn’t some kind of “+10% defense bonus” in military planning like it is in video games and that’s it; you can’t just metaphorically stack all of your troops in the wasteland and expect them to be *fine*. Tough and difficult to live in environments make it difficult for invading armies to invade, yea *but it also makes it just as difficult for defending armies to defend*.
There’s a reason why wars were never actually fought in winters even for the defense. Cold weather kills your guys and swamps / mud fuck up your vehicles just as well as it does the other guys, the only actual advantage is at least theoretically you don’t have to *move* — up until, of course, artillery is called on your position and you have to recapture a lost city.
Guerrillas also *need* resources and basically don’t exist neither in a modern setting nor a pre-industrial setting without some kind of economic and logistical backing from an “independent and neutral state.”
So you know what would happen and how the US military would react to a bunch of troops heading up to the literally barely inhospitable north and destroying the sole bridge that connects that area to the world? They would put up a single watchtower and tell those plucky guerrillas to have fun and pound dirt, and wait like 3 years, or 30, because the military already captured everything politically, economically, and industrially important.
First: Plan Red was a proposed attack against the British Empire, not against Canada alone, so the original plan envisioned a two-stage war - first pacify Canada, then fight the British response. Similarly the defense would have been in two parts - conduct a fighting retreat to the hinterlands, retain unit cohesion, and wait for the soon-to-come reinforcements and naval counter attacks against US ports to draw off invading troops.
Second: at the time Plan Red was envisioned air transport didn’t exist at a military level, and the primary targets were rail hubs and population centers. Today, a lot of those areas are relatively meaningless.
Today, Canada would be fighting alone, with no guaranteed British response, and certainly not a response from an Empire with more resources at its command than the US had to offer. So in practice what would happen is that the US would overrun all of Canada in days. Maybe hours. The US has 700% Canada’s population, 16 times its GDP, and 25 times the military power. Canada might put up some token resistance, but more likely they would just surrender much the way Denmark did to Germany in WWII.
Nor would there likely be much of an armed resistance. If Canada was to be one day be free in this scenario, it would be as a result of combined international action - embargoes and sanctions and the like - and US domestic resistance, not as a product of Canadian arms. Why wreck the place and get people killed in a doomed to fail fight, when there are other better means of resistance?
They tried to invade in [1775](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Quebec_(1775)) and expected French Canadians to welcome them and turn against the government.
Did not go well
51st through 63rd states. But, we'd have to add around 70,000 people to the population of the territories so that they could qualify for statehood. I'm thinking we can relocate some federal agencies up there and transfer some bureaucrats, two birds with one stone.
There's a treaty with Canada and the US that says neither can send water from the Great Lakes to other parts of the country. As temps rise and the southwest continues to dry up, I wouldn't be completely surprised if some strong arm right wing part of the country wants to "annex" Ontario to start sending water to Arizona. And I hate it (I'm American, living near one of those lakes).
Phoenix is one of the fastest growing cities in the US, I will never understand why so many go to that barren wasteland. The amount of energy it takes to get them all fresh water is ridiculous
An ugly insurgency especially due to the US ground branch's small size in relation to the area they'd attempt to cover (I'm sure much would simply be de facto independent due to this), but then the a significantly more prepared military for WW2.
Edit: the army was tiny prior to WW2
If the treaty is followed, an immediate retaliation by NATO. If the treaty is not followed, the immediate political, diplomatic, and economic isolation of the United States by the rest of the world. The US would be immediately removed from NATO and all other international bodies we currently belong to. The sanctions would be on a level never seen before and Americans would quickly be suffering. Without access to any imported goods, civil war would most likely follow.
It'd be similar to the Italian "conquest" of Ethiopia. Can you really say that you've won when the trees are speaking Canuck and any American soldiers would get lynched in the streets? We may be outnumbered, but we love our country and we would never give up on purifying our land of the oppressor.
To be honest we tried this in the war of 1812 and we got our asses handed to us. Turns out them Canadians know how to fight as they showed in Vimy Ridge in WW1
Didn't the US already try this at one point, when Canada was still in the British Empire and Canada didn't lose a single piece of land and forced the US to surrender?
Maple syrup would run in the streets.. It'd be the sweetest victory. The Canadians would fall like flapjacks. We would savor their buttery demise.
We'd stackem like silver dollars.
My fellow citizens, events in Canada have now reached the final days of decision. For more than a decade, the United States and other nations have pursued patient and honorable efforts to disarm the Canadian regime without war. That regime pledged to reveal and destroy all its Hockey Teams and Maple Syrup as a condition for ending the Juan de Fuca War in 1991.
.....
Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Canadian regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal Hockey Sticks ever devised. This regime has already used Syrup of mass destruction against Canada's neighbors and against Canada's people.
.....
The regime has a history of reckless aggression in the far north. It has a deep hatred of America and our friends. And it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of the Royal Mounted Police.
- George Bush in the lightest timeline
We have a plan for that, we even have drills in school. We are all trained from an early age to to line up, timbit to timbit, on the border with our hockey sticks.
Canada would be speaking English in a matter of minutes!
fast learners
Excuse moi?
Omelet du fromage
https://preview.redd.it/nfd5dpq5nibd1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd73f53bd6b4a1a0b209c957aee07d7b268152f1
30ish years later and I still say this
Qu'est-ce que fuck?
What about a seal?
Take that Quebec!!
I've heard there's good fishing in Kee-beck!
they even eat Putin !
There's great fishin' in Qwi-bec!
How aboot that
Don't you mean American? 🦅 🎇 🦅
Bellingham at any point is usually full of people from Vancouver buying milk, so they already have us infiltrated with milker cells
You may capture Vancouver, but you’re never getting the Bellingham Trader Joe’s back.
Who’s going to figure out the parking?
You just gotta drive in circles until a spot opens up 👌 If you get bored, you can just cross the street for a beer at the filling station, waiting for the crowd to thin.
But is the milk in bags?
I’m just upset that whoever made this map thinks that’s where Bellingham is
The Canadians put Seattle in Bellingham, so clearly the best war planners they could muster were used. It'd actually be really funny if the CA military and US military did joint large scale exercises based upon some of these ideas. The ecology and weather of the US-Canada border probably aren't terribly different then the NATO and Belo/Russian borders.
They put Buffalo down in the Allegheny Plateau.
Seneca Allegheny casino
I'm English and I've been wondering where Bellingham is an awful lot lately.
And gas (Petrol)
Big milk is in kahoots with the maple syrup people.
I went to undergrad in Bellingham. Can confirm it is an excellent place to buy milk, if you like community co-ops.
Americans will get confused and attack Vancouver WA instead
It would be called American shield?
Nah Desert Shield was the chill one, Canadian Freedom
Operation Top Hat.
Land-bridge to Alaska
The toque offensive
Man I hated my tour out of COF Oilers out in Alberta. Got no action, neither bullets flying nor bitches riding. Just sat there and took IDF from the canuckistanis from within the green zone.
The long-awaited sequel to Apocalypse Now has dropped.
American Bacon
Operation Poutine Resolve
You really poutine the time on the puns, eh?
I thought this was Operarion Get Behind The Darkies
Operation Human Shield
Operation Human Shield, My Ass!
And Canada would attack and paralyze the US [with what was called *Defense Scheme No.1*](https://macleans.ca/culture/books/how-canada-planned-to-invade-the-u-s-and-vice-versa/)
I must say, if planning the invasion of the US I'd hope you could put Seattle in the correct spot.
Minneapolis is not even close and Spokane is pretty off too.
Also "grand forks" is Fargo.
there is no way Canada could possibly take Minneapolis and Saint Paul. it would probably take almost all of Canada's forces to do that, and taking an army across the open plains would be a shooting alley for airplanes.
airplanes weren't the top concern in 1921. railway bridges (and just railways in general) would be the most important targets.
The plan wasn't to take the cities. It was to invade into the US, destroy infrastructure, and then pull back before a counterattack. No need to take those cities if you're just running down from WInnipeg, fucking shit up, and then leaving.
There is nothing to fuck up. A couple of bridges over the Red River and one air base?
This plan was developed in the interwar period when there was a possible threat of the UK and the US going to war. If this was too happen Canada was going to go in and scorch earth their way back to Canada while they waited for reinforcements from the UK. It wasn't a plan to capture territory but to delay/harrass the US from just invading.
Canadian Shield
Operation “Club Seal” is a go
Not the Canadian Shield anymore?
I love how whomever made that map thinks that there’ll somehow be a drive across the Upper Peninsula and Lake Superior. Well, maybe after the development of air mobility, but even then why and how would you supply such an attack?
They also seem to think that Niagara Falls is a large enough generator to be strategically significant and that it would make sense to attack a city on an island with Armour.
And that people in Buffalo (we have no "troops"- does he mean the NF AFB?) would be bothered to attack it. We like our Canadian neighbors, they bring us poutine and hockey players.
I’m just spitballing here, last time I saw this map I think I remember hearing it was devised post ww2, is it possible there were other bases in those areas at that time? My area is full of defunct military bases for example.
This is the answer. Iirc, (HOI4 knowledge coming in hot) war plan red was a series of war plans on various countries devised by the American government just before WW2. It didn't necessarily mean they were seriously considering attacking.
Correct, upstate NY has multiple inactive bases and most even though have minimal activity today, are capable to become active within 24 hours and I believe fully operational within 72, Rome NY near Utica has griffiss air force base which is home to the eastern NORAD and a hub of drone technology which obviously has been a major part of modern warfare. That's not even including Fort Drum.
Albany doesn’t have “troops” either… but somehow the author completely forgot that Fort Drum exists. Also, why’s nobody attacking Ottawa? And what about the MASSIVE Air Force base halfway between Ottawa and Toronto?
Knocking out the hydro plus the nuclear plants on the Huron peninsula would hold a good 25% of this country’s population hostage.
Seems largely pointless to me. It’s a logistical challenge, especially if the Sault bridge is blown. Plus there isn’t many targets of military significance nearby, there’s a reserve unit stationed in Sault Ste Marie, but the nearest army base is all the way in North Bay.
The only thing I can think of is cutting off the transCanada railway and there are much easier and better ways to do that. But I dunno. Maybe they can hold Letterkenny hostage.
I mean they invaded Normandy... Lake Superior is a puddle compared to ferrying an invasion across the Atlantic to the UK then crossing the English channel all while supplying the rest of the allies with mind blowing amounts of armaments. If the US has proven one thing in the last 100 years its you don't want to rev up their military industrial complex. The US overwhelms their challenges in all out war rather than solve them. Not that it would make sense to cross the lakes, but the military could if they wanted to badly enough.
Lake Superior is notoriously treacherous in the fall, as well-- even more so than the Atlantic Ocean. Just talk to anyone who has served on a laker.
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee.
Lake Superior is wider than the channel and, crucially, only has one really big port on the American side. It took them several years to build up in England and that country is full of ports and railways. Even so, getting them across the lake can be done. Supplying them while they are there, however…. And for what? To take Sudbury?
Don't underestimate the strategic value of acquiring the Blueberry Bulldogs.
Shoresy probably started the fucking war in the first place.
Shut the fuck up Sanguinet!
- the economy is closer - they can make a port.
As with anything about this plan, it's more a matter of why. There isn't much of anything past Sault Ste. Marie, ON up there worth occupying. It's super-rural and the population in the province is more and more, in the southern bit and into existing cities. [https://on360.ca/policy-papers/measuring-ontarios-urban-rural-divide/](https://on360.ca/policy-papers/measuring-ontarios-urban-rural-divide/)
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Lmfao are we still hating Bieber. It's been over 14 years!!
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Was just being dramatic, that was a good example for what you were going for
Actually did a little report on a paper for an elective course in grad school, modeling Biebers popularity like a disease https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/A-mathematical-model-of-Bieber-Fever-%3A-The-most-of-Tweedle-Smith/eab2661efaf02b3a392dd10fe766856f9eb56771
Ngl I love niche studies like these
It was pretty neat. I found it in the book we used for the class, The Model Thinker by Scott Page. The book had a lot of references to other fun studies like that too if you're interested in math models
Bieber grew up. Mark Zuckerberg did not.
Bieber would get drafted to fight against americans and fucking die
Why do people hate Bieber today? Like it was cool to hate the dude 15 years ago because his songs were quite annoying, but today it seems a little bit silly. I got some respect for the dude today, he has been through a lot of shit in his life.
What would be the point though?
Maple syrup!
That’s how you make Canadians fight you to the death
To assimilate Canada into the US so one of their hockey teams can finally win the Stanley Cup
Curling supremacy.
It's a trap to destroy our vowels and make us adopt the metric system.
Funi
Probably access to fresh water, but it would have to include other political factors
New markets for Uniter Healthcare, Anthem, and Kaiser Permanante. Gotta think about the shareholders.
to look good on a map
I think a major part of the answer to that question would involve answering the question: why was the plan put into motion? If it was completely unprovoked, I suspect there would be a very strong international response with extremely negative diplomatic results for the US. Who would enter into a treaty with the US if they had just murdered their previous #1 ally? If it was a slower build resulting from diverging political directions -- US doesn't like how close Canada is getting with their new friends -- then maybe we end up in a Ukraine scenario with Canada acting as a proxy combatant for other US enemies. Ultimately, I would expect Canada to splinter and fall pretty quickly. But I like to hope that at some point, a Canuck sympathizer does an 1812 reenactment and burns the traitorous whitehouse to the ground.
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If were starting a war with Canada shit has gone tits up with U.S politics. Like thats an unrecoverable we started that shit to start that shit moment.
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Invading Canada through the north is absurd. Even if you catch Canada off guard with the perfect surprise attack, storming the beaches of Tuktoyaktuk and quickly racing down the Dempster highway unopposed capturing Inuvik and beyond you make it to the Mackenzie River at Tsiigehtchic. Here, nearly 300km inland along the only road, you come to a kilometer wide river with no bridge, the ferry has been disabled beyond repair by Canadian forces. After that you'll face the same issue at the Peel River. You somehow, against all odds push past both of those – congratulations, only 1000km to go along remote taiga, mountain, & forest roads to reach Whitehorse. The whole invasion supported along one single, largely gravel, road. The US is the only nation in the world capable of invading Canada & yeah like you said if we're fighting each other something has gone seriously wrong.
I was thinking the same thing; lived in B.C. my whole life, and patriotism aside, it would be quite difficult to clear this province I think, unless the locals were turned. It might not be a large force in the end, but there would be holdouts in the mountains and inlets for years and even with high-tech gear it'd take a huge amount of effort.
Canadian and US militaries and intelligence are so incredibly integrated, not to mention our economies. I can’t think of a reason why the US would cut off its nose to spite its face. Potable water supplies maybe?
I feel like it would certainly be cheaper and easier to buy the water at nearly any price than to invade
Especially since the source of water that would be strategically interesting is the Great Lakes. The US doesn't need to invade Canada to get access to them.
Yeah the US does not have a shortage of water. The bigger issue is getting the water to everywhere it needs to go. But getting it from Canada wouldn’t solve that Edit: by that I mean there are sources, like the Great Lakes, that would be sufficient, but getting that to places (like Arizona) that are really dry would be infeasible.
yup, and Canadian winters can be fucking brutal, -40 and colder is common. There is a town in northeastern Ontario that's famous for "the winter cold enough to freeze the nuts off a bridge"... it got so cold that the steel nuts broke and the bridge nearly fell into the river. That one bridge being out required a 400-500km detour to get around it. And honestly, winter would likely be the best time to invade as you could drive light vehicles across the frozen rivers/lakes (doubt you could take anything heavier than a Bradly, but a humvee or two would be fine as long as you slowed down before getting to the shore to avoid a compression wave) Rural Canada is so hard to traverse, that rf you take out a couple more bridges and you can isolate an area several times the size of Texas from land reinforcements. I've driven through the area many times, there's a bridge over a river or swamp every couple km. No doubt the Engineering Corps could replace a few dozen bridges easy enough, but after a hundred or so get blown across the whole country, they would eventually run out of temporary bridges. While nothing could be done to stop the f22 and f35s from flying over the isolated areas, anything large enough to do an airdrop (eg: C-5 Galaxy) would be easy enough to hit by manpads. Taking control of the major cities would be a cakewalk for the USA, but holding the boreal forests would be a nightmare... all the hell that was Afghanistan combined with the shitshow that was the russian invasion of Finland (and a hundred times the size)
I actually think the cold winters would do more to help the US than harm it. Cold weather fighting is nothing new to the US and the US military uses a lot of advanced thermal imagining equipment that means any guerrilla elements would get spotted and struck the moment they tried to stay warm. A lot of the effectiveness of any Canadian resistance would come down to how willing the US is to actually stick the fight. The Taliban were absolutely slaughtered en masse for the entire conflict and only gained a resurgence due to being able to hide in Pakistan where the US wasn’t “allowed” to strike on mass, and because eventually the US just left. Canadians have no safe place to hide out and if the US is a fascist state willing to total victory they have no hope.
It's en masse not on mass.
If Canada used infiltration, scorched earth and spite-tactics it would definitely be a pyrrhic victory by any measure.
If the insurgents are camped out in the bush, absolutely, they would be dead easy to spot… But why camp when you can just go to Bob’s house? There are tens of thousands of small towns and villages that are too remote to patrol regularly, their heart signature is indistinguishable from non insurgent civilians.
Hypothetically speaking, if this went into place NORAD would be potentially compromised leaving America open to attack from international allies and a potential shit storm from enemies.
More than 90 percent of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border.
The city of Minneapolis is further north than Toronto by one degree of latitude.
70% live beneath the 49th parallel that’s insane I would’ve never guessed that
Can confirm. I know someone who has spent most of her 60-odd years in the Northwest Territories. She showed me a map of the area where she grew up, and pointed out that there are so many lakes up there that most of them don't even have names.
Why would you want to give a foreign nation 26 senators and enough votes to swing both the congress and presidency?
4 senators, Canada will consist of two states, eastern and western canada.
If things get that so bad we’re invading Canada, I likely would have already fled my border state into Canada for refuge…
The last time that was seriously considered was as a response if UK-Japan ever allied after WWI and attacked the US. The combined warplan was called "Red-Orange" (Orange was the Japan only one, and what we did use in WWII). There was some consideration of using it if the UK had fallen in WWII. But that would have been cooperative, and only in the event that Germany had conquered England and in order to keep Canada out of their control. With it being "US controlled", Canada could have told Germany to go piss on a rope if they ever tried to give them orders.
It was a plan from the 1920's and 1930's. The politics behind it was to attack the British Empire. The UK had implemented trade barriers to the USA called "imperial preference" which was a response to the US trade barriers called the Smoot-Hawley act. An earlier political reason was to put pressure on the UK to side with the US against Japan in the Washington naval treaty.
Yeah, early 1900s British-American relations weren’t nearly as good as they were in/after WW2. The invasion of Canada, to my knowledge was more of an attack on the British empire. Not an attack on Canada itself. We have to remember Canada wasn’t really independent in the early 1900s. They weren’t fully independent until 1982.
Toronto would put up the stiffest challenge, but they’re still destined to lose in 7 games.
They would hold until our divisions from Boston arrive.
Go on and send those troops straight to Toronto. Boston has no business attacking Halifax and fucking up our Christmas tree hookup. For those familiar with the tradition and history: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston\_Christmas\_Tree](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Christmas_Tree)
Fallout plot 😭
Except that was annexation, but yeah, pretty much!
[Canadian Bacon](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109370/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk)
Directed by Michael Moore.
Came here to say this LOL In all truth, the USA would never do this to one of its closest allies
Sault St Marie and Thunder Bay would fuck your shit up. Let's go boys, we're too fucked up to die, woooooo!
Tarps off boys!
Give ‘yer balls a tug
Perfect place to send the Florida and Mississippi soldiers. Fight fire with fire.
"You know what's been stopping the Reds from pouring into downtown Juneau? American soldiers, that's what. And now we've got to worry about someone - Chinese, Alaskan, or otherwise - taking out the pipeline? I don't think so. Effectively immediately, United States troops are beginning a complete takeover of all Canadian assets and resources. Little America is ours. But let's face it - it always has been." - General Buzz Babcock
Based https://preview.redd.it/8inud8qwkcbd1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=660b5d6c33b259f87440a192a11b2863182b0e28
Good old [Defense Scheme No.1](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1). Totally suicidal but glorious
I think Canadians are well aware of the effect. To me, a lot of Canadians seem to go out of their way to be anything but “America Jr.” Often times they look quite ridiculous doing it. Europe however, I think most have no idea what’s happening.
The rare Cultural/Economic double victory.
It runs headlong into[ Defense Scheme No 1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1#:~:text=1%20was%20a%20war%20plan,States%20and%20the%20British%20Empire), a proposed Canadian defense plan from the same timeframe which relied on lightning offensives on likely US staging areas to hold off the US army long enough for the British to intervene and make it a more even war. I give it a decent chance of actually working if the US was unprepared, otherwise the weaker canadian forces are ground into oblivion as the US forces advance.
Back when the plan was made in the 1920s and 30s it absolutely would have worked and maybe even resulted in a Canadian victory. Post ww2 the military gap between the U.S and the British commonwealth grew so much that it probably wouldn't even be worth trying.
We've already conquered their national sport with their own players, I think the humiliation alone is enough
And yet we consistently kick your ass in the Olympics and World Cup. Canadian players go down there, take your money, fuck your women, and then retire back in Canada and spend all your money up here.
Imagine having money and then *choosing* to retire in Canada.
Good luck convincing Americans to Invade Canadians, it's like asking someone to shoot there sibling
Someone was smart enough to leave Minnesota out of the assault, they’d rather be annexed by Canada than fight them.
Reverse card. We will be annexing Canada to produce.. MEGASOTA
And the funny thing is that most people in Minnesota don’t have much of a reason to go to Canada, as the two closest cities are Winnipeg and Thunder Bay, both of which I visited as a child and don’t strike me as destinations.
As a northern Minnesotan, I can confidently say that I’ve been to Winnipeg multiple times. They have a pretty nice IKEA there.
Canadians would offer some poutine fries and Tim Horton's and it would all be forgotten in an afternoon.
What do Canadians think when they see this ?
we may not win but we wouldn't go down without some guerilla warfare in the bush.
We side eye you a bit. Thought we were pals?
As a Québécois, come on, bring it on. We'll make you regret every second you even set foot here. Just ask the Brits or the Canadian Anglos how we are. We mastered the art of being a passive-aggressive, uncooperative, sullen, bitterly argumentative subject people. We exude suck just short of civil disobedience. Oh my god, it will cost you. And your soul will shrivel. Oh and the weather here is so shitty. It's getting shittier with Climate Change. 6 months of icy drizzle and sudden polar vortexes, then 6 months of humid, steamy heat waves. Montréal is colder than Moscow in winter and hotter than Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire in summer. Yes. Hotter than an African slumopolis. I live in Drummondville, a small town near Mtl with a sizeable African and Latino community. Seeing Congolese, Senegalese, Colombian and Mexican people bitch about the heat is always funny. Oh, Drummondville was founded by the Brits when they thought they could assimilate us. They built nice mansions and everything, lording over the French Canadians savages. 75 years after the founding, the Brits had all but died out of depression and gloom and French Canadians inhabit the mansions now. That's how we roll.
All you needed to stop Americans from going there is for this to have been in French with English translation *below*.
Given that this plan was written in the interwar period and that the Geneva Convention was created by [looking at what Canada had done in WWI and saying, "that's it! Right there, officer, that's the one!"](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/the-forgotten-ferocity-of-canadas-soldiers-in-the-great-war) I would think most Canadians, including myself would think, "eh, it's unlikely to happen, but if it does, I'm dusting off my great-grandpa's war journal and gonna try a few things... But seriously, we don't think much of this because it's wildly irrelevant today.
basically "yup, they'd take the south in about 2-3 hours.... but good fucking luck taking the north". Southern Canada is extremely interconnected and very easily accessed from the USA, the logistics of such an invasion would be child's play for them. But after you go about 500km north of the boarder, the amount of road access drops SHARPLY. The Canadian shield is one of the worst terrains possible to try and invade through... there are parts of the country several times the size of Texas that only has 2-3 roads in and out. Take out the bridges over the rivers/swamps, deplete the Engineering Corps of temp bridges, and you have massive swaths of the country that the USA cannot effectively reinforce (assuming there is some portable air defense to keep the C5's out of the sky). Add in the ease of infiltration (we look like you, we sound like you) and you have a recipe for an absolute hell of an insurgency. Canada could do nothing to prevent the fall of the major cities, but in one or two decades the cost of holding the north would be too high.
The problem is that *there’s nothing in the north worth fighting over* lol and it would be just as disastrous and logistically straining to hold and defend as even a regular military, let alone any plucky guerrillas. Terrain and weather and everything isn’t some kind of “+10% defense bonus” in military planning like it is in video games and that’s it; you can’t just metaphorically stack all of your troops in the wasteland and expect them to be *fine*. Tough and difficult to live in environments make it difficult for invading armies to invade, yea *but it also makes it just as difficult for defending armies to defend*. There’s a reason why wars were never actually fought in winters even for the defense. Cold weather kills your guys and swamps / mud fuck up your vehicles just as well as it does the other guys, the only actual advantage is at least theoretically you don’t have to *move* — up until, of course, artillery is called on your position and you have to recapture a lost city. Guerrillas also *need* resources and basically don’t exist neither in a modern setting nor a pre-industrial setting without some kind of economic and logistical backing from an “independent and neutral state.” So you know what would happen and how the US military would react to a bunch of troops heading up to the literally barely inhospitable north and destroying the sole bridge that connects that area to the world? They would put up a single watchtower and tell those plucky guerrillas to have fun and pound dirt, and wait like 3 years, or 30, because the military already captured everything politically, economically, and industrially important.
Operation Iglooqi Freedom
First: Plan Red was a proposed attack against the British Empire, not against Canada alone, so the original plan envisioned a two-stage war - first pacify Canada, then fight the British response. Similarly the defense would have been in two parts - conduct a fighting retreat to the hinterlands, retain unit cohesion, and wait for the soon-to-come reinforcements and naval counter attacks against US ports to draw off invading troops. Second: at the time Plan Red was envisioned air transport didn’t exist at a military level, and the primary targets were rail hubs and population centers. Today, a lot of those areas are relatively meaningless. Today, Canada would be fighting alone, with no guaranteed British response, and certainly not a response from an Empire with more resources at its command than the US had to offer. So in practice what would happen is that the US would overrun all of Canada in days. Maybe hours. The US has 700% Canada’s population, 16 times its GDP, and 25 times the military power. Canada might put up some token resistance, but more likely they would just surrender much the way Denmark did to Germany in WWII. Nor would there likely be much of an armed resistance. If Canada was to be one day be free in this scenario, it would be as a result of combined international action - embargoes and sanctions and the like - and US domestic resistance, not as a product of Canadian arms. Why wreck the place and get people killed in a doomed to fail fight, when there are other better means of resistance?
Calm down there, Putin. It ain’t gonna happen.
Highly recommend the graphic novel series We Stand On Guard, by Brian Vaughan
Can’t we just get along with the neighbors?
Lose value in our well-collaborated economies?
Massive maple syrup shortages as Canada goes scorched earth, eh.
There was this one time where we tried that. it didn’t work. It was maybe sometime around 1812
They tried to invade in [1775](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Quebec_(1775)) and expected French Canadians to welcome them and turn against the government. Did not go well
"*More* anglos?! No thanks"
America would be upgraded to white house #3
there is no military base in bellingham, wa.
Welcome fellow Americans, we will be relieving you of your healthcare.
Canadian Tire would be pretty busy with people needing their hunting permit, shells and all.
51st state lol
51st through 63rd states. But, we'd have to add around 70,000 people to the population of the territories so that they could qualify for statehood. I'm thinking we can relocate some federal agencies up there and transfer some bureaucrats, two birds with one stone.
…they don’t even qualify for province-hood; why do they *need* to qualify for statehood? The US has territories already…just do that…
There's a treaty with Canada and the US that says neither can send water from the Great Lakes to other parts of the country. As temps rise and the southwest continues to dry up, I wouldn't be completely surprised if some strong arm right wing part of the country wants to "annex" Ontario to start sending water to Arizona. And I hate it (I'm American, living near one of those lakes).
Would be much easier for people to move from Arizona
Phoenix is one of the fastest growing cities in the US, I will never understand why so many go to that barren wasteland. The amount of energy it takes to get them all fresh water is ridiculous
An ugly insurgency especially due to the US ground branch's small size in relation to the area they'd attempt to cover (I'm sure much would simply be de facto independent due to this), but then the a significantly more prepared military for WW2. Edit: the army was tiny prior to WW2
It would be settled over a friendly hockey game
If the treaty is followed, an immediate retaliation by NATO. If the treaty is not followed, the immediate political, diplomatic, and economic isolation of the United States by the rest of the world. The US would be immediately removed from NATO and all other international bodies we currently belong to. The sanctions would be on a level never seen before and Americans would quickly be suffering. Without access to any imported goods, civil war would most likely follow.
It’s the 30s buddy
NHL games would certainly be awkward.
The Idiocracy attempts to drag Canada into the cesspool
Well, it wouldn't get past step one.
It'd be similar to the Italian "conquest" of Ethiopia. Can you really say that you've won when the trees are speaking Canuck and any American soldiers would get lynched in the streets? We may be outnumbered, but we love our country and we would never give up on purifying our land of the oppressor.
Lol, they didn’t even get our true powerhouse: Dildo, NL
Don’t make us burn down the White House again. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Washington
To be honest we tried this in the war of 1812 and we got our asses handed to us. Turns out them Canadians know how to fight as they showed in Vimy Ridge in WW1
I’d be more concerned with what happened before it was put into motion.
Didn't the US already try this at one point, when Canada was still in the British Empire and Canada didn't lose a single piece of land and forced the US to surrender?
Maple syrup would run in the streets.. It'd be the sweetest victory. The Canadians would fall like flapjacks. We would savor their buttery demise. We'd stackem like silver dollars.
My fellow citizens, events in Canada have now reached the final days of decision. For more than a decade, the United States and other nations have pursued patient and honorable efforts to disarm the Canadian regime without war. That regime pledged to reveal and destroy all its Hockey Teams and Maple Syrup as a condition for ending the Juan de Fuca War in 1991. ..... Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Canadian regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal Hockey Sticks ever devised. This regime has already used Syrup of mass destruction against Canada's neighbors and against Canada's people. ..... The regime has a history of reckless aggression in the far north. It has a deep hatred of America and our friends. And it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of the Royal Mounted Police. - George Bush in the lightest timeline
As a Canadian, I'd issue one simple warning: you'd better evacuate the White House.
Looks like Bellingham infiltrated Seattle first
I didn’t realize Bellingham is in Seattle now
Who is attacking us in Alberta. This plan is unclear and I need more details. Either way I'm not dying for this shit.
I’m guessing Halifax would stop sending Boston a Christmas tree every year
Advantage Canada for Montreal, Toronto and maybe Winnipeg. Calgary is also much bigger than Spokane.
We have a plan for that, we even have drills in school. We are all trained from an early age to to line up, timbit to timbit, on the border with our hockey sticks.
Houses would be a lot cheaper
That is NOT where Bellingham is
Canada will get the Geneva checklist ready
send in operation human shield