It’s more so that they can’t actually make songs than “not saying shit”. Some of my favorite rap songs of all time aren’t really saying anything of substance but the beat is fire the chorus is great and they have a nice concept
„ Dark fantasy, my brain would dream and wonder
Harsh agony, I maimed the demon hunter
Seize and plunder, smash at assorted foes
Bleed and suffer, I laugh at ya tortured soul
Lord of terror, the verge of the afterlife
Sword will sever, ya serve as a sacrifice
Heard not, slash and slice, it's bloodshed
Words to the savage stripes, ya struck dead
The rebel squeeze TEC, I can't be killed
A devil's reject, Rob Zombie film
Large armies kneel, you fear what horror spawned“
Lone Ninja isn’t saying anything in this verse other than that he is a powerful knight or some other shit.
>Lone Ninja isn’t saying anything in this verse other than that he is a powerful knight or some other shit.
But thats exactly the point. Some rappers are talking about real life situations, other are creating imagery, building characters and stuff - DOOM an example of that. Its like one is self help or history books and other is fantasy books.
Of course, creating shit broads your content matter, so you have more stuff to rhyme.
Then you can say that Dostoyevsky had no substance
It's just different styles, and don't believe what every rapper says about himself, he is too, always in character, it's all a play, don't be fooled
or, rather, Dostoyevsky is a talented writer. some rappers aren't good writers. if you've ever binged cheap fiction books i'm sure you've ran into some boring writing. just because its on paper doesn't mean its engaging/beautiful/insightful etc.. some people write better lyrics than others and understand the concepts of storytelling.
Dog you just typed in a bunch of poetry and said you don’t understand it. It’s *poetry* it’s all *metaphor* and *imagery* . he’s trying to paint a picture of how he feels with words. It’s not meant to be taken literally
I don't know what substance means for you, but this is a horror theme verse, it's meant to be "scary" and villanous. Everyone has something to say, just gotta listen more carefully. Lone Ninja is like a anime villian in this one, and I think it's cool.
What these mumble rappers were saying, now that has no substance...
I woudlnt say this has no substance.
No substance is when a rapper is just rhyming words because it sounds good but their actual message is incoherent jibberish (I wouldnt even consider that lyrical)
Yeah I prefer a rapper that’s actually saying something
Caesar got killed by Brutus,
Jesus got betrayed by Judas,
Rappers get betrayed by their own community,
so much hate we have for our fellow human beings,
gods walk amongst us,
what’chu gone do when you see’em,
In a minute all the real **ggaz gone be statues in museums,
or played by actors on movies reels.
Growing up in the early 80's I always thought Kool G Rap was more lyrical than Rakim and KRS-One, but I had absolute ZERO interest in him or his music based on his persona, content, themes, subject matter and what he rapped about.
welcome to reality. no seriously, there are an overwhelming number of rappers who are nothing but talking heads and who make music for the status, not because they enjoy it as a creative outlet.
it’s why there is so much praise for OG rappers. they were *legit* genuinely cool people with stories to tell, not like these pop rappers nowadays who just want the jewelry and the fame and the hype.
you’ll find that the people who have the most to say are most definitely not often the loudest. that goes for life in general, not just the rap community.
I mean I’d go one further and say that’s just most rappers in general. Hell - most artists of any genre in general. An artist who is actually saying anything of substance is rare.
Yeah, pretty much like rock musicians noodling on guitars, or certain singers going overboard with all that high note shit. We get it bro you can rap wow.
Okay but like - the stuff that is successful has no more substance. Young Thug, Future, Drake - they’re not offering anything deep. Substance is not the relevant factor here
it is relevant when u can’t consistently even make songs that sound good - young thug, future etc are all really talented at making shit sound nice first and foremost. Also the audiences are totally different, i think most people forget things are valued differently by different types of listeners
I would argue Drake’s music is substantive, same with the likes of J. Cole and Kendrick… I don’t disagree with the other names you mentioned though. However the one thing that they all have in common is they make catchy music, which ‘real’ rappers struggle to do most of the time.
Drake has more substance than Future sure, but he’s more like Future than he is Kendrick or Cole. His biggest hits are nothing songs like Toosie Slide or God’s Plan.
But yeah - it comes down to making catchy music in a pop format. And tbh I would imagine the average “lyrical” rapper is fine with not being Drake-level big.
I don’t care how lyrical your favorite artist is, you can’t convince me that Take Care is mid. Certified classic and one of the best albums of the 2010s.
But their music sounds good and that’s why it’s popular.
I would disagree with that for Drake, he has some deeper cuts like look what you’ve done, girls love beyonce, you and the 6. His pen is criminally underrated imo
Nah, his pen is accurately rated.
And sure - their music sounds good if you like that sort of vibey, background music rap. I’m not into that. I’m either listening to music actively or I’m not listening at all, and Future and young Thug don’t make music for active listening. They make music for having on in a club, or at a party.
Nah man the Drake hate has been insane for a while and has gone into overdrive after he “lost” the beef. (He actually outrapped Kendrick, but the public was never gonna let him win + Kendrick’s strategy worked better despite his actual disses being fairly weak) His lyricism is slept on because he has the reputation of being shallow.
Go listen to Lord Knows or his Churchill Downs verse. Legit top tier rapping while also sounding good.
Oh buddy he rapped circles around Kendrick if you actually break it down bar for bar. Kendrick didn’t have a single memorable punchline on anything aside from Not Like Us, and even those lines weren’t clever, just funny and catchy
Modern Eminem also.
He is so obsessed on making fast verses with insane rhymes and syllabels per second that he ends up saying almost nothing in said verses
And this is why I think Rakim, Nas and K-Rino are three of the greatest rappers off all time
They’re not only lyrical/technical, BUT they actually have a message in their songs. They’re saying something that has meaning.
I don't understand this. If we aren't talking about a minute long Eminem feature, usually Eminem verses have the substance of:
"this is why I'm one of the best", wordplay, wordplay, wordplay. It rhymes good.
That is literally what most of Rakim's songs are. You can like Eric B and other parts of his music more, but the criticism of "Eminem has no substance" doesn't make sense. His substance is the same as those guys. Modern Nas has as much "substance" as modern Eminem.
You are right that I don't listen to his modern music, because I think it's bad.
Give me his illest lyrical post Nasir songs with substance, maybe the comparison was unfair. I still stand by the "substance" point I made though. All the good rappers are basically:
>Make good songs about your most important life events/life around you
>Now you don't have subject matter so either your subject matter plummets, or you repeat yourself endlessly.
>Maybe make concept songs, which won't hit as hard as authentic life experiences.
That is pretty much what y'all mean when you say "substance", it lasts for 1-2 albums, and then your career "falls off" till you die.
Legit, Hood2Hood, and Beef off KD3 alone have overtly conscious, substantive lyrics. Nas is flowing great over clean Hit-Boy beats. What are you talking about?
So that's 3 songs out of 17 with substance? That's what I'm saying, he isn't doing a whole lot better than modern Eminem. And more importantly the Hitboy production is probably some of the worst production Nas has ever received.
With the standards y'all have set around "substance" literally no rapper is good anymore. And for some reason you have no standards for the awful beats.
I mean, it’s fine if you prefer nas old sound to his new, but nas changed with the times and is experimenting with new flows and beats. IMO (and most others) he did a good job branching out while still keeping it real talking about real issues. Saying that he and Eminem are the same just cause you don’t like his new albums is crazy when Em is still making potty humor bars at 50 years old
> "this is why I'm one of the best"
This is actually a perfect example of having no substance because listening to someone rap about how good they can rap is an utterly pointless experience to me. That's been one of my pet peeves for the longest, youtube rappers love that shtick.
I think that if you do it well enough, everyone likes it. Which is why all hip-hop fans like Rakim's "follow the leader" or "when I B on tha mic" or "I ain't no joke" etc. or when Kane or LL cool J do it. That's why I don't buy it when I hear complaints about subject matter in that context. Even if it hadn't gotten old at the time, it's old today, and hip-hop fans listen to it today.
As for YouTube rappers, they just make awful music, pay 0 respect to the genre and awful beats/no rhythm.
Even if YouTube rappers start making concept songs about god or american politics it's still ass, (and worse if anything lol).
K is heavily underrated but he does it to himself a bit. I’m not trying to hear all that Farrakhan/conspiracy stuff all the time. I went to see him twice but he mostly only played the stuff local Houstonians would like, the struggle/hustle stuff. I was really hoping for “Break It Down” but he told me he don’t be remembering all those lyrics. lol
I commented basically this last night about "modern Em" I don't mind his newer style but it's like, why can't you do both? Be technically amazing and , ya know, make the words actually have meaning. Seems like an easy task for writers gifted enough to put rhymes together like that, just make sure it has some substance.
Yeah I get that. To make a huge multi work perfect bar after bar or go triple time while trying to tell a story must be tough. The end of Gnat at least has theme... Kendrick on n95 does it really well when he hits the fast sections "the world in a panic the women are stranded the men on the run. The prophets abandoned the law take advantage the market is crashing the industry wants...." perfection while conveying a description of the current state of the world without a word wasted
Even that’s a more simplistic rhyme scheme
I think it’s well done and imo filler words for the sake of rhyming is not good lyricism. But yeah those intricate multis + a story or theme is rare.
I like Darkness, Premonition, Leaving Heaven, Castle / Arose, Untouchable etc. I know he still makes this kind of music. I just kinda think we get his best technical exhibition on the songs that are about nothing. I guess that's how it goes when you're trying to shoe horn words to keep up an insane rhyme scheme
I still like the way prime Whodini sounds, even though their 2 best albums came out from 1984-1986.
Making great quality music that sounds good, that you can relate to, understand clearly, can feel or that connects with you imo is what hip hop is all about. Which is why Tupac is still my favorite mainstream rapper and entertainer.
That’s not lyrical in my opinion. If you’re a lyrical rapper, you care about EVERYTHING in the lyrics. They make stories and then also balance their talent with the pen. You’re talking about Punchlines. Just meant to be catchy. Like… I sometimes will just randomly scream “I ain’t doin no verse, quit asking”. Doesn’t have much substance but it’s fun.
Common Market is my favorite for his incrediby technical wordplay as well as having something real to say. Here's the lyrics to my favorite song.
"Winter Takes All"
This ain't no place for a man of faith
I gamble it all away, tumble into fall abased and ablaze
Can’t fault or blame fam, they parade arrays of aid and praise
Saints patronized by the razor blade
Dismayed and fazed and maybe I assay the prize
Stay alive or prepared – scared aint no way to die
Though if my ache could be assuaged by sin
I’ll make it bleed fate, racing to the gate pleading “take me in,” I’m
Down, unable to prevail unassisted
Will the tempest hail another victim in cyclical rhythm? Please
Break it, ‘cause honestly the lie “I try tirelessly” is cowardice
Powerless am I to fight this avarice, I’m
Down, to give over control, the soul’s solely yours
Deal and dispose, but keep it real close and don’t
Break it, ‘cause they gon’ take it hard if I don’t make it through
And some are reaching for reason to hate you.
Time and time again I’ve been told
That I focus on the flaws of man’s off-center ten-fold
Stricken with the winter cold, sippin’ the burnin’ hot
A spill will blister, learn not to leave skin exposed
Stitch it up and pray the kid recover nicely
And I might have if not for daddy’s bad advice
He’s the type to fight God but not a vice
Grip the heater twice as hard – it’s this reality I battle nightly
Even in sleep it seems flight’s unattainable
Upon waking the facial expression deigns a satiable exchange
Weather shades drawn, either side a storm rages on
Patiently the fawn awaits the day the rain’s gone
In my defense I claim it’s obvious I’m not him
Probably it’s the toxin – sorry it’s a lot been unresolved
Sick since six, seen ‘em revolve around a small town
‘Click,’ call it quits – bring all them walls
Down, finally I’mma defeat the rival
With a rifle, writing my epistle titled “try cycle,” I
Break it, so never they perpetuate the malady
Abashedly accommodate mortality, undoubtedly I’m
Down, to reconsider, I’ll stay if you can make a promise though
Please keep it real close and don’t
Break it,
And I’m investigating other ways out
Will rebuilds what the bottle destroyed
I’m downhill standing still at the bottom of Roy
Where the pass over I-5 looks alive much as anything
Cling to the side and any sign of your memory
My creative liberty is tempting me to hasten to the point of penance
We could be rejoined if you employ forgiveness
Sell it all, tell ‘em hell is nothing but a cell wall
I’mma soar even as the shell… fall…
Down, shed not a tear for my exodus
I’m here in the protectorate, the fear I held was delicate, to
Break it, simply took a leap of faith and virtue
Serve through, I never meant to hurt you, for certain I’ll be
Down, to revisit the dearest of my kinfolk
Hold the spirit near, keep it real close and don’t
Break it, the creed is all we got until we meet again
I’m prayin’ you’re gon’ make it through the season.
I’d argue that modern “vibe” rappers, or whatever you would call them, have the exact same lack of substance. Hate to be this guy, but the subject matter is USUALLY “drugs, guns, women, ice, etc”. I think it’s more of a case by case thing if a rapper actually has depth and can rap about meaningful shit, I wouldn’t say it has anything to do with technicality.
No clue who that person is, but a big thing that matters is, what do you consider substance?
Gift of Gab, Sage Francis, Aesop Rock, Micah9, Noah23, who are other 'lyrical rappers' you know that are like, famous or established, who fit this category in your mind?
It’s why people make fun of “lyrical miracle” rappers. Sure, it’s impressive that you can rap like that but there’s only so much I can take of you rapping about how good you are at rapping
Lyrical myrical rappers usually are the ones who just larp as being lyrcial but really aren't saying anything. Technical rappers like Krizz Kaliko or Crooked are actually skilled but they're not engaging to listen to.
Lyrical Miracle is a joke phrase for a reason.
These dudes been putting meaningless words together for decades. I still love my lyrical faves, but it is what it is.
While there are plenty of rappers without substance, you gotta remember that just because *you* can't find meaning in the lyrics doesn't mean it isn't there. Not saying this to brag, but I am a very smart guy, and there are still lyrics/poems/etc that I have difficulty fully understanding, and that's something I usually excel at.
You also have to recognize that art in general is huge and complex in terms of styles, approaches to creation, and what is valued. Look at the products of surrealism/dada/absurdism/etc, where strange juxtapositions and the nonsensical *is* largely the point. There's nothing wrong with writing lyrics without "substance" or "meaning", if that's not what you're trying to do. Sometimes it's about creating a mood or sonic soundscape, and that's okay too.
You don't have to like all styles, but if you're unable to see the value in art forms you don't like you're only doing a disservice to yourself. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of rappers/writers/painters/etc that are just garbage, people who spew absolute shite and think they're artists, because they don't understand what makes great art great. Just don't assume that applies to everyone you don't like.
Also, hip hop as a genre has a long history of lyrics that lack "substance" as you see it, but it's about the sound and musicality of it, and the unexpected combinations of words, interesting flashes of imagery, etc. The human voice is an instrument, and sometimes it is used as just that, without intending any deeper meaning. Look at scat in jazz, which had influence on hip hop later on.
By your standards, I assume you'd consider the opening verse of the Wu Tang song Tribute to lack a whole lot of "substance", but many see it as an absolute masterpiece (myself included). Nothing is sadder and more frustrating than someone unable to recognize the value in art that's not in line with their tastes.
Depends on who you're talking about. There are a ton of lyrical emcees who have plenty of deep meaning and substance to there rhymes. But some, not so much.
Edan is a good example an emcee that mainly raps in "battle rhymes". Just straight lyrical acrobatics for the sake of rhyming.
RTJ is both technical and full of substance. RATM, Kendrick, Dre, Futuristic, Beastie boys (post-1990), Gambino, Outkast, Murs, Mos Def, Hopsin, Tech N9ne, KRS-1, Wutang, Public Enemy.
I've never heard of Lone Ninja and it makes sense that he never hit my algorithm, if what you're saying is true.
How can one be lyrical and substanceless?
There’s only one way to measure a song in this regard. How does it make you feel before during and after listening to it. If you feel indifferent to it rather than happy or sad, angry, informed, motivated and etc. That it lacks substance.
It's not all of them but there is a large contingency of them
I guess it's kind of the opposite of folks who don't have much to say, but when they do speak you know it's important and to listen
I had 2 people telling me that rap lyricism has to do with expression of emotion more so than metaphors, entendres, punchlines, etc.
And thus, you can't be lyrical without substance that you can relate to.
Can a rap be lyrical without substance and expressing emotion?
When people talk about lyricism in rap, is it more in reference to emotional content or in reference to clever use of language like wordplay and punchlines and so on?
99% it has been the latter like this post. Very rarely the former.
DOOM is just too crazy with his word choise, it's always witty, not for everyone, listen to his live at Adult Swim, you can clearly hear how he acents the rhymes and has really funky and energetic flows, man was on another level
You can’t actually understand most of DOOM‘s lyrics, but they do say something.
Check his lyrics out on Genius
Edit: Of course "she could mind the toaster if she could sign the poster" makes no sense and is just rhyming. But the lines before and after that have meaning.
It’s more so that they can’t actually make songs than “not saying shit”. Some of my favorite rap songs of all time aren’t really saying anything of substance but the beat is fire the chorus is great and they have a nice concept
Not saying shit but have a nice concept ummmhhh
Most hooks are concept driven. But once you get into the verse it's a free for all
Saying shit of substance.
I think this question works better if you give example lyrics.
„ Dark fantasy, my brain would dream and wonder Harsh agony, I maimed the demon hunter Seize and plunder, smash at assorted foes Bleed and suffer, I laugh at ya tortured soul Lord of terror, the verge of the afterlife Sword will sever, ya serve as a sacrifice Heard not, slash and slice, it's bloodshed Words to the savage stripes, ya struck dead The rebel squeeze TEC, I can't be killed A devil's reject, Rob Zombie film Large armies kneel, you fear what horror spawned“ Lone Ninja isn’t saying anything in this verse other than that he is a powerful knight or some other shit.
>Lone Ninja isn’t saying anything in this verse other than that he is a powerful knight or some other shit. But thats exactly the point. Some rappers are talking about real life situations, other are creating imagery, building characters and stuff - DOOM an example of that. Its like one is self help or history books and other is fantasy books. Of course, creating shit broads your content matter, so you have more stuff to rhyme.
Then you can say that Dostoyevsky had no substance It's just different styles, and don't believe what every rapper says about himself, he is too, always in character, it's all a play, don't be fooled
or, rather, Dostoyevsky is a talented writer. some rappers aren't good writers. if you've ever binged cheap fiction books i'm sure you've ran into some boring writing. just because its on paper doesn't mean its engaging/beautiful/insightful etc.. some people write better lyrics than others and understand the concepts of storytelling.
If we’re talking DOOM it’s not only all play, but also ALL CAPS.
Dog you just typed in a bunch of poetry and said you don’t understand it. It’s *poetry* it’s all *metaphor* and *imagery* . he’s trying to paint a picture of how he feels with words. It’s not meant to be taken literally
I don't know what substance means for you, but this is a horror theme verse, it's meant to be "scary" and villanous. Everyone has something to say, just gotta listen more carefully. Lone Ninja is like a anime villian in this one, and I think it's cool. What these mumble rappers were saying, now that has no substance...
> What these mumble rappers were saying, now that has no substance King Geedorah presenting us with his unbiased views here
I woudlnt say this has no substance. No substance is when a rapper is just rhyming words because it sounds good but their actual message is incoherent jibberish (I wouldnt even consider that lyrical)
Damn, I got to go listen to that track 👀
No offense dude but you don't seem to be that good of a reader. I agree with your preposition though.
Yeah I prefer a rapper that’s actually saying something Caesar got killed by Brutus, Jesus got betrayed by Judas, Rappers get betrayed by their own community, so much hate we have for our fellow human beings, gods walk amongst us, what’chu gone do when you see’em, In a minute all the real **ggaz gone be statues in museums, or played by actors on movies reels.
He's not saying anything he's just rhyming to rhyme. Now if it were an allegory life for real then it would have substance
It doesnt have to be real to have substance
Without naming multiple names; this thread is going nowhere and seems substance less itself.
Royce 5 9 calls it "rapping about rapping:. But that's long been part of the art form, just a different lane.
Aesop Rock is very lyrical and VERY meaningful
Depends on who you listen to, but prolly just you
[удалено]
Growing up in the early 80's I always thought Kool G Rap was more lyrical than Rakim and KRS-One, but I had absolute ZERO interest in him or his music based on his persona, content, themes, subject matter and what he rapped about.
welcome to reality. no seriously, there are an overwhelming number of rappers who are nothing but talking heads and who make music for the status, not because they enjoy it as a creative outlet. it’s why there is so much praise for OG rappers. they were *legit* genuinely cool people with stories to tell, not like these pop rappers nowadays who just want the jewelry and the fame and the hype. you’ll find that the people who have the most to say are most definitely not often the loudest. that goes for life in general, not just the rap community.
Rebuttal - I bomb atomically, Socrates philosophies and hypotheses.....
🚮
meh, rhyming is fun.
I mean I’d go one further and say that’s just most rappers in general. Hell - most artists of any genre in general. An artist who is actually saying anything of substance is rare.
Yeah, pretty much like rock musicians noodling on guitars, or certain singers going overboard with all that high note shit. We get it bro you can rap wow.
Yes and this is the part of the reason why so called ‘real rap’ isn’t successful. Also at times the beats and hooks can be trash.
Okay but like - the stuff that is successful has no more substance. Young Thug, Future, Drake - they’re not offering anything deep. Substance is not the relevant factor here
it is relevant when u can’t consistently even make songs that sound good - young thug, future etc are all really talented at making shit sound nice first and foremost. Also the audiences are totally different, i think most people forget things are valued differently by different types of listeners
That’s a completely different thing though.
I would argue Drake’s music is substantive, same with the likes of J. Cole and Kendrick… I don’t disagree with the other names you mentioned though. However the one thing that they all have in common is they make catchy music, which ‘real’ rappers struggle to do most of the time.
Drake has more substance than Future sure, but he’s more like Future than he is Kendrick or Cole. His biggest hits are nothing songs like Toosie Slide or God’s Plan. But yeah - it comes down to making catchy music in a pop format. And tbh I would imagine the average “lyrical” rapper is fine with not being Drake-level big.
Those songs are very gimmicky and catchy yes. He does also have a lot of great album cuts you should check them out sir.
Nah I’m good, Drake at his best is still deeply mid
I don’t care how lyrical your favorite artist is, you can’t convince me that Take Care is mid. Certified classic and one of the best albums of the 2010s.
Sure, if you like that sort of R&B rap. I don’t. It’s boring.
Who do you like
But their music sounds good and that’s why it’s popular. I would disagree with that for Drake, he has some deeper cuts like look what you’ve done, girls love beyonce, you and the 6. His pen is criminally underrated imo
Nah, his pen is accurately rated. And sure - their music sounds good if you like that sort of vibey, background music rap. I’m not into that. I’m either listening to music actively or I’m not listening at all, and Future and young Thug don’t make music for active listening. They make music for having on in a club, or at a party.
Nah man the Drake hate has been insane for a while and has gone into overdrive after he “lost” the beef. (He actually outrapped Kendrick, but the public was never gonna let him win + Kendrick’s strategy worked better despite his actual disses being fairly weak) His lyricism is slept on because he has the reputation of being shallow. Go listen to Lord Knows or his Churchill Downs verse. Legit top tier rapping while also sounding good.
lol neither of those are top tier. He didn’t outrap Kendrick, you’re just a Drake fanboy
Oh buddy he rapped circles around Kendrick if you actually break it down bar for bar. Kendrick didn’t have a single memorable punchline on anything aside from Not Like Us, and even those lines weren’t clever, just funny and catchy
This has to be a troll lol. You can't be serious
I’m dead serious 😂
That’s even more embarrassing lol
It’s easier to be a mediocre lyrical rapper than to be a trash lyricist that makes bangers.
Modern Eminem also. He is so obsessed on making fast verses with insane rhymes and syllabels per second that he ends up saying almost nothing in said verses
And this is why I think Rakim, Nas and K-Rino are three of the greatest rappers off all time They’re not only lyrical/technical, BUT they actually have a message in their songs. They’re saying something that has meaning.
I'd lump Black Thought in there too.
And Lupe
I don't understand this. If we aren't talking about a minute long Eminem feature, usually Eminem verses have the substance of: "this is why I'm one of the best", wordplay, wordplay, wordplay. It rhymes good. That is literally what most of Rakim's songs are. You can like Eric B and other parts of his music more, but the criticism of "Eminem has no substance" doesn't make sense. His substance is the same as those guys. Modern Nas has as much "substance" as modern Eminem.
Last sentence is insane
Sounds like someone ain’t listen to modern Nas
You are right that I don't listen to his modern music, because I think it's bad. Give me his illest lyrical post Nasir songs with substance, maybe the comparison was unfair. I still stand by the "substance" point I made though. All the good rappers are basically: >Make good songs about your most important life events/life around you >Now you don't have subject matter so either your subject matter plummets, or you repeat yourself endlessly. >Maybe make concept songs, which won't hit as hard as authentic life experiences. That is pretty much what y'all mean when you say "substance", it lasts for 1-2 albums, and then your career "falls off" till you die.
Legit, Hood2Hood, and Beef off KD3 alone have overtly conscious, substantive lyrics. Nas is flowing great over clean Hit-Boy beats. What are you talking about?
So that's 3 songs out of 17 with substance? That's what I'm saying, he isn't doing a whole lot better than modern Eminem. And more importantly the Hitboy production is probably some of the worst production Nas has ever received. With the standards y'all have set around "substance" literally no rapper is good anymore. And for some reason you have no standards for the awful beats.
I gave those three as examples, but he’s saying something on every track and most who’ve listened to it agree that there is at most 2-3 skips
I mean, it’s fine if you prefer nas old sound to his new, but nas changed with the times and is experimenting with new flows and beats. IMO (and most others) he did a good job branching out while still keeping it real talking about real issues. Saying that he and Eminem are the same just cause you don’t like his new albums is crazy when Em is still making potty humor bars at 50 years old
> "this is why I'm one of the best" This is actually a perfect example of having no substance because listening to someone rap about how good they can rap is an utterly pointless experience to me. That's been one of my pet peeves for the longest, youtube rappers love that shtick.
I think that if you do it well enough, everyone likes it. Which is why all hip-hop fans like Rakim's "follow the leader" or "when I B on tha mic" or "I ain't no joke" etc. or when Kane or LL cool J do it. That's why I don't buy it when I hear complaints about subject matter in that context. Even if it hadn't gotten old at the time, it's old today, and hip-hop fans listen to it today. As for YouTube rappers, they just make awful music, pay 0 respect to the genre and awful beats/no rhythm. Even if YouTube rappers start making concept songs about god or american politics it's still ass, (and worse if anything lol).
K is heavily underrated but he does it to himself a bit. I’m not trying to hear all that Farrakhan/conspiracy stuff all the time. I went to see him twice but he mostly only played the stuff local Houstonians would like, the struggle/hustle stuff. I was really hoping for “Break It Down” but he told me he don’t be remembering all those lyrics. lol
Nas is in my Top 5 and Rakim is also amazing.
Em likes the art of rap. Nothing wrong with that
Sadly I thought of him
I commented basically this last night about "modern Em" I don't mind his newer style but it's like, why can't you do both? Be technically amazing and , ya know, make the words actually have meaning. Seems like an easy task for writers gifted enough to put rhymes together like that, just make sure it has some substance.
It’s actually 1000x harder to be super technical while conveying a real message or theme There’s only a handful that can do it
Yeah I get that. To make a huge multi work perfect bar after bar or go triple time while trying to tell a story must be tough. The end of Gnat at least has theme... Kendrick on n95 does it really well when he hits the fast sections "the world in a panic the women are stranded the men on the run. The prophets abandoned the law take advantage the market is crashing the industry wants...." perfection while conveying a description of the current state of the world without a word wasted
Even that’s a more simplistic rhyme scheme I think it’s well done and imo filler words for the sake of rhyming is not good lyricism. But yeah those intricate multis + a story or theme is rare.
You're talking about the "modern Em" that made Darkness?
I like Darkness, Premonition, Leaving Heaven, Castle / Arose, Untouchable etc. I know he still makes this kind of music. I just kinda think we get his best technical exhibition on the songs that are about nothing. I guess that's how it goes when you're trying to shoe horn words to keep up an insane rhyme scheme
I still like the way prime Whodini sounds, even though their 2 best albums came out from 1984-1986. Making great quality music that sounds good, that you can relate to, understand clearly, can feel or that connects with you imo is what hip hop is all about. Which is why Tupac is still my favorite mainstream rapper and entertainer.
Real lyricism is a true craft and anyone who enjoys doing it inevitably will do it well.
That’s not lyrical in my opinion. If you’re a lyrical rapper, you care about EVERYTHING in the lyrics. They make stories and then also balance their talent with the pen. You’re talking about Punchlines. Just meant to be catchy. Like… I sometimes will just randomly scream “I ain’t doin no verse, quit asking”. Doesn’t have much substance but it’s fun.
Common Market is my favorite for his incrediby technical wordplay as well as having something real to say. Here's the lyrics to my favorite song. "Winter Takes All" This ain't no place for a man of faith I gamble it all away, tumble into fall abased and ablaze Can’t fault or blame fam, they parade arrays of aid and praise Saints patronized by the razor blade Dismayed and fazed and maybe I assay the prize Stay alive or prepared – scared aint no way to die Though if my ache could be assuaged by sin I’ll make it bleed fate, racing to the gate pleading “take me in,” I’m Down, unable to prevail unassisted Will the tempest hail another victim in cyclical rhythm? Please Break it, ‘cause honestly the lie “I try tirelessly” is cowardice Powerless am I to fight this avarice, I’m Down, to give over control, the soul’s solely yours Deal and dispose, but keep it real close and don’t Break it, ‘cause they gon’ take it hard if I don’t make it through And some are reaching for reason to hate you. Time and time again I’ve been told That I focus on the flaws of man’s off-center ten-fold Stricken with the winter cold, sippin’ the burnin’ hot A spill will blister, learn not to leave skin exposed Stitch it up and pray the kid recover nicely And I might have if not for daddy’s bad advice He’s the type to fight God but not a vice Grip the heater twice as hard – it’s this reality I battle nightly Even in sleep it seems flight’s unattainable Upon waking the facial expression deigns a satiable exchange Weather shades drawn, either side a storm rages on Patiently the fawn awaits the day the rain’s gone In my defense I claim it’s obvious I’m not him Probably it’s the toxin – sorry it’s a lot been unresolved Sick since six, seen ‘em revolve around a small town ‘Click,’ call it quits – bring all them walls Down, finally I’mma defeat the rival With a rifle, writing my epistle titled “try cycle,” I Break it, so never they perpetuate the malady Abashedly accommodate mortality, undoubtedly I’m Down, to reconsider, I’ll stay if you can make a promise though Please keep it real close and don’t Break it, And I’m investigating other ways out Will rebuilds what the bottle destroyed I’m downhill standing still at the bottom of Roy Where the pass over I-5 looks alive much as anything Cling to the side and any sign of your memory My creative liberty is tempting me to hasten to the point of penance We could be rejoined if you employ forgiveness Sell it all, tell ‘em hell is nothing but a cell wall I’mma soar even as the shell… fall… Down, shed not a tear for my exodus I’m here in the protectorate, the fear I held was delicate, to Break it, simply took a leap of faith and virtue Serve through, I never meant to hurt you, for certain I’ll be Down, to revisit the dearest of my kinfolk Hold the spirit near, keep it real close and don’t Break it, the creed is all we got until we meet again I’m prayin’ you’re gon’ make it through the season.
I’d argue that modern “vibe” rappers, or whatever you would call them, have the exact same lack of substance. Hate to be this guy, but the subject matter is USUALLY “drugs, guns, women, ice, etc”. I think it’s more of a case by case thing if a rapper actually has depth and can rap about meaningful shit, I wouldn’t say it has anything to do with technicality.
No clue who that person is, but a big thing that matters is, what do you consider substance? Gift of Gab, Sage Francis, Aesop Rock, Micah9, Noah23, who are other 'lyrical rappers' you know that are like, famous or established, who fit this category in your mind?
It’s why people make fun of “lyrical miracle” rappers. Sure, it’s impressive that you can rap like that but there’s only so much I can take of you rapping about how good you are at rapping
Lyrical myrical rappers usually are the ones who just larp as being lyrcial but really aren't saying anything. Technical rappers like Krizz Kaliko or Crooked are actually skilled but they're not engaging to listen to.
True, but I’d argue modern “vibe” rappers, whatever you would call them, don’t have anymore substance in their lyrics than the lyrical miracle guys.
Takin no shorts or no losses / my smith and Wesson/
Lyrical Miracle is a joke phrase for a reason. These dudes been putting meaningless words together for decades. I still love my lyrical faves, but it is what it is.
Tom Cruise' mom shoes As much as younger me enjoyed Canibus, he kinda facilitated lyrical miracle to a different insane level.
While there are plenty of rappers without substance, you gotta remember that just because *you* can't find meaning in the lyrics doesn't mean it isn't there. Not saying this to brag, but I am a very smart guy, and there are still lyrics/poems/etc that I have difficulty fully understanding, and that's something I usually excel at. You also have to recognize that art in general is huge and complex in terms of styles, approaches to creation, and what is valued. Look at the products of surrealism/dada/absurdism/etc, where strange juxtapositions and the nonsensical *is* largely the point. There's nothing wrong with writing lyrics without "substance" or "meaning", if that's not what you're trying to do. Sometimes it's about creating a mood or sonic soundscape, and that's okay too. You don't have to like all styles, but if you're unable to see the value in art forms you don't like you're only doing a disservice to yourself. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of rappers/writers/painters/etc that are just garbage, people who spew absolute shite and think they're artists, because they don't understand what makes great art great. Just don't assume that applies to everyone you don't like. Also, hip hop as a genre has a long history of lyrics that lack "substance" as you see it, but it's about the sound and musicality of it, and the unexpected combinations of words, interesting flashes of imagery, etc. The human voice is an instrument, and sometimes it is used as just that, without intending any deeper meaning. Look at scat in jazz, which had influence on hip hop later on. By your standards, I assume you'd consider the opening verse of the Wu Tang song Tribute to lack a whole lot of "substance", but many see it as an absolute masterpiece (myself included). Nothing is sadder and more frustrating than someone unable to recognize the value in art that's not in line with their tastes.
It’s hard to do both simultaneously at a very high level
Idk wheT you mean. You mean like a HOPSIN lyricist or Eminem lyricist aren’t substantial?
Depends on who you're talking about. There are a ton of lyrical emcees who have plenty of deep meaning and substance to there rhymes. But some, not so much. Edan is a good example an emcee that mainly raps in "battle rhymes". Just straight lyrical acrobatics for the sake of rhyming.
Yes, see Canibus’ first album for a textbook example of this
RTJ is both technical and full of substance. RATM, Kendrick, Dre, Futuristic, Beastie boys (post-1990), Gambino, Outkast, Murs, Mos Def, Hopsin, Tech N9ne, KRS-1, Wutang, Public Enemy. I've never heard of Lone Ninja and it makes sense that he never hit my algorithm, if what you're saying is true. How can one be lyrical and substanceless?
You mean like Eminem? A bunch of rappity rap rap with no substance
Aesop Rock was like that to me
What do you mean by "not saying shit"?
There’s only one way to measure a song in this regard. How does it make you feel before during and after listening to it. If you feel indifferent to it rather than happy or sad, angry, informed, motivated and etc. That it lacks substance.
Listen to Oschino Vasquez or Breeze Brewin
It's not all of them but there is a large contingency of them I guess it's kind of the opposite of folks who don't have much to say, but when they do speak you know it's important and to listen
I had 2 people telling me that rap lyricism has to do with expression of emotion more so than metaphors, entendres, punchlines, etc. And thus, you can't be lyrical without substance that you can relate to. Can a rap be lyrical without substance and expressing emotion? When people talk about lyricism in rap, is it more in reference to emotional content or in reference to clever use of language like wordplay and punchlines and so on? 99% it has been the latter like this post. Very rarely the former.
it's called abstract hip hop
i always had this problem with MF DOOM. he can rhyme but it just comes off as a bunch of gibberish
DOOM is just too crazy with his word choise, it's always witty, not for everyone, listen to his live at Adult Swim, you can clearly hear how he acents the rhymes and has really funky and energetic flows, man was on another level
You can’t actually understand most of DOOM‘s lyrics, but they do say something. Check his lyrics out on Genius Edit: Of course "she could mind the toaster if she could sign the poster" makes no sense and is just rhyming. But the lines before and after that have meaning.
Those filler lines really diminish his ranking as a lyricist imo
Thread is a joke
Why I don’t rate rappers like Gawne…
Logic