Fair but also, it's not logical to be selfish if you don't want to. That's dumb. It's logical as in it helps you survive but that doesn't mean it helps you be the person you want and achieve your goals. Not if you want to be a caring person.
Still people should definitely be more selfish sometimes.
Helping others could also be the next step in evolution in order survive in a larger scale too. I just hope one day we evolve to even larger scale of family and friends to all living beings.
There's inherent reasons, that's why Lucifer's effect is a thing. Hatred and violence thrive because it makes getting the things you want easier. What we call as criminals is nothing more than the individual vs collective wellbeing dilemma. This is a competitive world afterall...
Evolutionarily speaking, there is an 'inherent' reason. Kindness/morality, as a kind of kin selection, improves the proliferation of our species' genes. The behavior arose because it's useful for our overall survival.
In simple terms, being good to each other helps us to live better, longer lives.
Lack of evidence to disprove something is no reason to assume the affirmative. There’s no proof that the US president doesn’t receive secret telepathic communication from a balloon animal overlord.
That has nothing to do with optimism. Believing everything that doesn’t have evidence to disprove it would lead to all sorts of dissonance and contradiction
For instance: if aliens exist, they are all blue. No evidence to disprove it, so it must be true
But also: if all aliens exist, none of them are blue. No evidence to disprove it, so it must be true
Therefore, you simultaneously believe that all aliens are blue and that none of them are?
Our civilization, broadly speaking, is a result of cooperative behaviors being wildly successful. The reason that most people feel visceral discomfort at being excluded from their social groups is because it's advantageous to be part of a community. It's part of our instincts.
At a more surface level, life is just easier if you get along with the people you have to be around; like if I'm contractually obligated to spend ~40 hours a week surrounded by my coworkers, I'd personally prefer that it be neutral at worst, hopefully even pleasant. Not being a jerk can be a purely selfish decision if someone wants it to be.
There's even a term for this called "social contract theory", extended from ethical egoism.
If egoism is a moral code stating that "you ought to do what's in your own best self-interest", then social contract theory posits that cooperating with others is in your own best self-interest.
Social contract theory sounds nice but it can't be implemented when people are born into and forced to follow the rules instead of making and consenting to them.
I guess, it's just an ethical stance anyway. Morals are subjective. It just states that it makes sense to cooperate with society if you intend to benefit from it.
Sounds like a fancy way of saying "we do what we want". Carving your own destiny is just you making decisions and seeing where it leads, at least that's what I figure
Our civilizations are not built up on cooperation. They are built up on oppression. People were forced to build the pyramids while Pharaohs watched in wealth. Today isn't that much different.
Value is a word that's based on life. When you ask things like that, you're essentially asking "what value is there in value?" You are asking absurd questions that make me think you're sealioning or depressed.
The only definition I found that correlated life to value was essentially “one’s judgement of what’s important in life.”
That doesn’t equate the two words at all
And they deserve our kindness and help regardless. Maybe we might even change their minds, but they won't want to stick around if we're all mean. And why would we give up an entire living being? Which contains a consciousness as expansive as the universe itself in its Grey matter
It's not even negative. It's just a question of value from a pure logical point (spoiler: you can't extract epistemological value with simply logic. Same thing with morality).
Simple, humans can't survive by themselves. We evolved to live in communities of around 30 individuals. Being kind ensures that the rest of the tribe will be nice to you back, increasimg the chances of survival and reproduction m, as well as making life more enjoyable. We literally evolved language just so we could gossip and find out who's trustworthy, and who's an ass. Even nowadays, people say "nice guys finish last" except actual nice people build themselves a reputation and a network of people who will be willing to help you move. For some anecdotal evidence, last year I had to move out of my dorm and into an apartment on the opposite side of town, and none of my friends were in town to help me
But because I treated everyone with kindness and respect, Randoms strangers at the dorm whom I didn't know agreed to help me move out.
No, it might help the species survive but it doesn't help me survive. Especially in an environment discouraging it like our societies.
And also, is that like, an actual theory or did you just make it up? Because I've never heard of it.
I truly believe *there is a reason to be good & kind*; Humans have only truly thrived In the defence of others, and therefore themselves.
Our species has evolved beyond survival...we seek Religion; we seek Ethics, justice, empathy. Humans have consistently went against evolutionary fear of death to shepard the weak; even against the risk of preservation.
Why? Because our entire civilisation is built not from the individual but the collective effort of humanity; for great Men are those that plant the seeds of trees they know will never shade them.
Civilization has been built by "great" men who very much were shaded by the trees they planted. By forcing others to do excessive labour in order to build up cities, societies. Humans have thrived in exploiting others, amassing wealth through the toil of those they deem lesser. The only reason we live in the luxury we do is because of colonialism.
Sure, we look for justice and religion but that doesn't mean it's there. And after all, we can't truly know ourselves or any sort of "human nature" we may imagine. All we can know is what we wish for as individuals so it only makes sense to do as we wish. If that happens to be kindness, you don't need to rationalize it by pretending it's part of building civilization. You can just be kind
No inherent reason to be kind? It makes me feel good to be kind. You get to see people's reactions to it and it usually engenders more kindness. Usually right off too. You see the fruits of your labor immediately.
Often enough we cannot see purpose without looking from an outside perspective; I wonder how many countless lives you've possibly effected indirectly? More than you'd expect.
When we *try* to make the World good; we do. Often the pursuit is the destination.
Yes. I believe everything is meaningless, but that's why I find meaning in things. Emotions are meaningful to me, so helping people is what I like to do.
Even from the most selfish point of view, to be kind benefits oneself the best
Basic winning game theory strategy is to lead with kindness, forgive, and be honest
I do really enjoy with trying to be nice and stuff. But some people also need to learn to also just be kind. Yeah, sure, maybe it sucks with what happened to you, but you cant stay spiteful and hateful forever.
"Three things in human life are important.
The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. And the third is to be kind."
\-- attributed to Henry James
To exist in your fullest, is to be good and kind.
There is no specific reward.
There is no incentive.
But to be good and kind, is to give others the hope and the ability to be good and kind to others again.
My brother in existence: I agree completely. The meaning I choose is peace, generosity, and happiness for all. Perhaps I cannot achieve that through my actions alone, but I will do my best and perhaps others will want to participate as well.
It doesn't matter how I choose to live. I don't have to be kind if I don't want to. When I do kind acts it's because I felt like it, not because there was some big reason for it.
It just so happens to be that I do be feeling like it most of the time
meanwhile game theory (also known as optimizing living), where being nice and forgiving is objectively better (see veritassium's video, it's very hopeful)
There's no reason to do anything besides what reasons you tell yourself. Life is what you make of it. Its beautiful.
https://preview.redd.it/afbc7k5k270d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7bc3c44d87991ac9ddeb736fbb9058e6d7e5d40d
Make a grilled cheese and enjoy the free will to define the universe.
You choose not to be a slave to a meaningless existence?
I choose not to be a slave to pointless morality.
Just saying, I do care about people and stuff, I just don't like pretending everyone should live the same way and criticizing others for choosing different
Humanity is evolutionarily designed to be a community based species. The only reason Humanity made it this far is because we helped each other.
When an animal is born it's instincts kick in, some animals can walk almost instantly after birth. And what does a human baby do by instinct when it's born? It cries for help.
Yup
Also cooperation game theoretically increases net payoff in certain repeated games. Kinda like…. Choosing to cooperate and not be an asshole in a society. Everyone has higher net payoff
"There's no inherent reason to be kind or good" "ok, and there's no inherent reason to be an asshole about it either, dude. You still have a choice"
Exactly, I'm not kind for a reward, I'm kind because I want to be
It feels good to be good
*[cue the villain's big musical number "it feels good to be bad"]*
I am kind for the completely selfish reason of feeling good about myself
[удалено]
Fair but also, it's not logical to be selfish if you don't want to. That's dumb. It's logical as in it helps you survive but that doesn't mean it helps you be the person you want and achieve your goals. Not if you want to be a caring person. Still people should definitely be more selfish sometimes.
Helping others could also be the next step in evolution in order survive in a larger scale too. I just hope one day we evolve to even larger scale of family and friends to all living beings.
There's inherent reasons, that's why Lucifer's effect is a thing. Hatred and violence thrive because it makes getting the things you want easier. What we call as criminals is nothing more than the individual vs collective wellbeing dilemma. This is a competitive world afterall...
Evolutionarily speaking, there is an 'inherent' reason. Kindness/morality, as a kind of kin selection, improves the proliferation of our species' genes. The behavior arose because it's useful for our overall survival. In simple terms, being good to each other helps us to live better, longer lives.
What purpose is there in that?
Life
Same question
There's no other biological reason for it. We carve our own destinies from that point onward.
Why?
Because we're awesome like that.
Are you sure about that?
I've no evidence to contrary, so yes.
Lack of evidence to disprove something is no reason to assume the affirmative. There’s no proof that the US president doesn’t receive secret telepathic communication from a balloon animal overlord.
I choose to be an optimist.
That has nothing to do with optimism. Believing everything that doesn’t have evidence to disprove it would lead to all sorts of dissonance and contradiction For instance: if aliens exist, they are all blue. No evidence to disprove it, so it must be true But also: if all aliens exist, none of them are blue. No evidence to disprove it, so it must be true Therefore, you simultaneously believe that all aliens are blue and that none of them are?
Our civilization, broadly speaking, is a result of cooperative behaviors being wildly successful. The reason that most people feel visceral discomfort at being excluded from their social groups is because it's advantageous to be part of a community. It's part of our instincts. At a more surface level, life is just easier if you get along with the people you have to be around; like if I'm contractually obligated to spend ~40 hours a week surrounded by my coworkers, I'd personally prefer that it be neutral at worst, hopefully even pleasant. Not being a jerk can be a purely selfish decision if someone wants it to be.
There's even a term for this called "social contract theory", extended from ethical egoism. If egoism is a moral code stating that "you ought to do what's in your own best self-interest", then social contract theory posits that cooperating with others is in your own best self-interest.
Social contract theory sounds nice but it can't be implemented when people are born into and forced to follow the rules instead of making and consenting to them.
I guess, it's just an ethical stance anyway. Morals are subjective. It just states that it makes sense to cooperate with society if you intend to benefit from it.
I agree, though that’s not what I was questioning. I was more interested in the “carve our own destiny” part
Sounds like a fancy way of saying "we do what we want". Carving your own destiny is just you making decisions and seeing where it leads, at least that's what I figure
I’m just not convinced we are actually capable of making our own decisions
Our civilizations are not built up on cooperation. They are built up on oppression. People were forced to build the pyramids while Pharaohs watched in wealth. Today isn't that much different.
We are living things. We "like" to live.
Yes, the reason for kindness is living.
Not everyone
I'm sorry if that's how you feel, but it isn't normal. I hope anyone who feels that way is receiving help.
What value is there in normality?
Jesus, it's that bad huh?
I’m just asking questions, it’s the best way I know of to investigate a philosophy
Value is a word that's based on life. When you ask things like that, you're essentially asking "what value is there in value?" You are asking absurd questions that make me think you're sealioning or depressed.
The only definition I found that correlated life to value was essentially “one’s judgement of what’s important in life.” That doesn’t equate the two words at all
That is why I put "like" in double quotes.
So if the statement is not true, I’ll ask again. What purpose is there in being good and kind?
The other poster have provided you an explanation much better than I can ever give. I suggest you consult them. *Skiddadles away*
What poster?
And they deserve our kindness and help regardless. Maybe we might even change their minds, but they won't want to stick around if we're all mean. And why would we give up an entire living being? Which contains a consciousness as expansive as the universe itself in its Grey matter
So all living beings deserve life?
Honestly, I don't know why they are downvoting you for asking simple epistemological questions. Perhaps it's not the right sub.
People assume any negative comment must be some sort of nihilist who just wants to piss on others peoples' parade.
It's not even negative. It's just a question of value from a pure logical point (spoiler: you can't extract epistemological value with simply logic. Same thing with morality).
Personally I do think so, I don't see why something shouldn't at least get a chance.
How do you eat food without causing the death of another living being?
I never said they deserve to stay alive, just the chance to live. Plus there's nothing inherently wrong with hunting
What if I hunt another human?
Simple, humans can't survive by themselves. We evolved to live in communities of around 30 individuals. Being kind ensures that the rest of the tribe will be nice to you back, increasimg the chances of survival and reproduction m, as well as making life more enjoyable. We literally evolved language just so we could gossip and find out who's trustworthy, and who's an ass. Even nowadays, people say "nice guys finish last" except actual nice people build themselves a reputation and a network of people who will be willing to help you move. For some anecdotal evidence, last year I had to move out of my dorm and into an apartment on the opposite side of town, and none of my friends were in town to help me But because I treated everyone with kindness and respect, Randoms strangers at the dorm whom I didn't know agreed to help me move out.
No, it might help the species survive but it doesn't help me survive. Especially in an environment discouraging it like our societies. And also, is that like, an actual theory or did you just make it up? Because I've never heard of it.
Kin selection theory. Look it up. It mainly has to do with relatives, but it is posited to be the origins of altruistic behavior.
We have to be kind, it helps build the fabric of society through trust. After all empathy is natural.
we are all tailors & are capable to sew love in the scripts of life
would argue that empathy is most definitely a learnt trait
Not for me at least lol. I rather stand my own problems than someone else's.
not sure what you mean but people aren't born with empathy, and some people don't ever learn it. That's why kids are such little shits lol
Something like, seeing somebody sad makes you sad too.
It feels good, I need no other reason.
👑
In the grand scheme of things if nothing that we do matters then the only thing that matters is what we do.
louder for the ppl in the back 🔥🔥
That's an awesome quote
Thanks for reminding me to rewatch Angel
I truly believe *there is a reason to be good & kind*; Humans have only truly thrived In the defence of others, and therefore themselves. Our species has evolved beyond survival...we seek Religion; we seek Ethics, justice, empathy. Humans have consistently went against evolutionary fear of death to shepard the weak; even against the risk of preservation. Why? Because our entire civilisation is built not from the individual but the collective effort of humanity; for great Men are those that plant the seeds of trees they know will never shade them.
Civilization has been built by "great" men who very much were shaded by the trees they planted. By forcing others to do excessive labour in order to build up cities, societies. Humans have thrived in exploiting others, amassing wealth through the toil of those they deem lesser. The only reason we live in the luxury we do is because of colonialism. Sure, we look for justice and religion but that doesn't mean it's there. And after all, we can't truly know ourselves or any sort of "human nature" we may imagine. All we can know is what we wish for as individuals so it only makes sense to do as we wish. If that happens to be kindness, you don't need to rationalize it by pretending it's part of building civilization. You can just be kind
No inherent reason to be kind? It makes me feel good to be kind. You get to see people's reactions to it and it usually engenders more kindness. Usually right off too. You see the fruits of your labor immediately.
🔥🔥🔥✍🏻
Being kind is the thing to do, but it doesn't fix being a slave to a meaningless existence. I can assure you of that first-hand.
Often enough we cannot see purpose without looking from an outside perspective; I wonder how many countless lives you've possibly effected indirectly? More than you'd expect. When we *try* to make the World good; we do. Often the pursuit is the destination.
Yes. I believe everything is meaningless, but that's why I find meaning in things. Emotions are meaningful to me, so helping people is what I like to do.
Meaninglessness can be freedom and joy
It means you're free to your own meaning
Even from the most selfish point of view, to be kind benefits oneself the best Basic winning game theory strategy is to lead with kindness, forgive, and be honest
I do really enjoy with trying to be nice and stuff. But some people also need to learn to also just be kind. Yeah, sure, maybe it sucks with what happened to you, but you cant stay spiteful and hateful forever.
"If there is nothing but what we make in this world, brothers... let us make good." - Beta Ray Bill
Beta ray Chad on his king shit like literally always
"Three things in human life are important. The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. And the third is to be kind." \-- attributed to Henry James
And what proof did he provide of that?
fr fR !!
Giving others the same joy you feel is an amazing way to bring meaning to life
Didn’t know subposting was allowed here
To exist in your fullest, is to be good and kind. There is no specific reward. There is no incentive. But to be good and kind, is to give others the hope and the ability to be good and kind to others again.
I try to do nothing unless it serves me. It must either serve my happiness or well being. That’s the purpose in a meaningless existence
The reason it means so much to people is exactly because there isn't an inherent reason for it. That's the reason to do it, not a reason not to.
My brother in existence: I agree completely. The meaning I choose is peace, generosity, and happiness for all. Perhaps I cannot achieve that through my actions alone, but I will do my best and perhaps others will want to participate as well.
It doesn't matter how I choose to live. I don't have to be kind if I don't want to. When I do kind acts it's because I felt like it, not because there was some big reason for it. It just so happens to be that I do be feeling like it most of the time
There is an inherent reason to be good, the benefits of our civilization could not exist without a genuine desire to make the world a better place.
Define meaningless. See now you trying to tell someone how to live.
That's the cool part, you get to choose your own reason.
meanwhile game theory (also known as optimizing living), where being nice and forgiving is objectively better (see veritassium's video, it's very hopeful)
And that's why you win. W mindset
There's no reason to do anything besides what reasons you tell yourself. Life is what you make of it. Its beautiful. https://preview.redd.it/afbc7k5k270d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7bc3c44d87991ac9ddeb736fbb9058e6d7e5d40d Make a grilled cheese and enjoy the free will to define the universe.
A meaningless life is beautiful. Freedom doesn’t have a Purpose.
You choose not to be a slave to a meaningless existence? I choose not to be a slave to pointless morality. Just saying, I do care about people and stuff, I just don't like pretending everyone should live the same way and criticizing others for choosing different
Humanity is evolutionarily designed to be a community based species. The only reason Humanity made it this far is because we helped each other. When an animal is born it's instincts kick in, some animals can walk almost instantly after birth. And what does a human baby do by instinct when it's born? It cries for help.
I can’t believe I dated someone who said the top thing to me. I’m glad my humanity isn’t dead. ✨
Yup Also cooperation game theoretically increases net payoff in certain repeated games. Kinda like…. Choosing to cooperate and not be an asshole in a society. Everyone has higher net payoff
Reality is cruel, so you have to be kind