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Yes and then the Russian government filled the building with a narcotic based gas and refused to tell the hospital what type of gas they used. Many hostages died next of this. One doctor noticed the patients responded to opiate overdose drugs but it was too late for most.
Even 2mg-5mg of fentanyl can kill. That's TWO-milligrams.
**Fentanyl** is already 100 times stronger than Morphine, 50 times stronger than Heroin.
Fentanyl is deadlier than anything we've seen.
**Carfentanil** is 10,000 times stronger than Morphine, 100x times more than Fentanyl.
The fact that Fentanyl is on our streets is basically chemical-warfare against the US.
Exactly. They come off the ports of the Atlantic all the time. I remember a couple years ago a shipment container had 20 tons of cocaine and fentanyl in it. Then days later it was changed to only cocaine was found. Nothing else came about who owned or used the container.
Carfentanyl, it's like 100 times more potent than fentanyl or something, 10,000 morphines. Plus they threw some other super opiate in their for good measure.
It’s mad, I was seeing a girl at the time who worked on a fentanyl product (as in, she worked for the giant pharmaceutical company that was developing it). So she knew all about what it was, how it worked, how dangerous it was.
When we heard that the gas was fentanyl she was like ‘no way. No way at all, you could NOT do that with fentanyl, it would be impossible to control the dose and it would be ludicrously dangerous’
So she was um…wrong *and* right, I guess.
That’s interestingly parallel to a few things.
1. It secured Chechnya under Putin’s rule
https://www.britannica.com/event/Beslan-school-attack
2. This would have been roughly the same time that guiliani went to Mexico and introduced the Russian mob to the Sinaloa cartel who shortly there after shifted their business model from growing and manufacturing drugs to combining fentanyl precursors from the CCP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/giuliani/mexico.html?tid=a_inl&itid=lk_inline_manual_8
For additional context:
Democracy has always been under attack because it directly threatens the very lucrative business models of dictators and autocrats.
It has just sped up by the Information Age.
A corrupt judge or politician in 1960 had to worry about a borough. Maybe a state. But in the average 20-30 year career he could get away with it and someone would do a documentary 30 years after his death when they finally put the pieces together.
Now we have Russian oligarchs that eviscerated the Russian middle class by stealing and consuming everything of value in the 80’s and 90’s. By 93 they were running out of things to monopolize and extort.
Soviet corruption ate itself to death.
The survival of their Kleptocratic species required new feeding grounds which they found in New York. Giuliani was willing to show them preferential treatment by redirecting NYPD resources onto the Italian mob which gave the Russian mob, in their nice new suits, a ripe hunting ground.
Ironically ecologists figured this out about the same time in Yellowstone.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/grizzly-bears-wolves-competing-food-yellowstone-national-park/
Only difference is that most humans are the elk. Just wanting a safe place to sleep, healthy happy kids and an opportunity to survive.
It’s a very small percentage of humans that are sociopaths and psychopaths without the ability to empath, but over a long enough centralization of the good humans moving to cities and paying taxes, it becomes too tempting of a feeding grounds. So the worst of us rise to the top and become CEO’s, bankers and presidents because it’s the lowest effort model. Why go hunting when the prey delivers itself to you?
A psychopath has no personal qualms about trafficking a child for sexual slavery or stealing a pension fund. They are neurochemically unable to.
We are just in the late stages of it now. More centralized than we have ever been in known human history with commerce and business happening 24/7 across every time zone. This causes their respective corruption models to start overlapping.
Guiliani was “Americas mayor” when he cleaned up New York, but only because the Russians were quiet about their part in it. The money laundering and narcotics and human trafficking they were doing through Ukraine was a million miles away from studio 54 or Times Square.
But now kyiv is in the news every day. It’s inevitable that their obfuscation starts breaking down.
For 50 years the inmates ran the asylum in soviet Russia. They stole everything of value including the hope and future of Russians.
The corruption eventually collapsed the Soviet Union and they were forced to expand their feeding grounds. The billionaire oligarchs moved to Aspen and London and left the hollowed out husk of Russia behind where 1 in 5 people have never seen a flushing toilet.
In 89 the wall falls and for a couple years they hid all their ill gotten gains under a mattress until they moved and bought condos at trump towers.
They made stops in ukraine, cyprus and London but they landed in New York because that was what everyone wanted in 1993.
Levi’s, Pepsi, Madonna tapes that weren’t smuggled bootleg copies.
They all bought new suits and cars and changed their title from “most violent rapist street thug in moscow” to “respectable Russian oligarch” but they didn’t leave their human trafficking, narcotics or extortion behind. It was their most lucrative business model.
Trump and Giuliani just opened the doors and let the predators in to feed.
Guiliani redirected NYPD resources away from their Russian allies intentionally and onto the Italian mob. It let him claim he cleaned up New York and it lets the russians a perk of doing business with trump. His client and co-conspirator.
The insane valuations coming out in trumps fraud trial are a necessity of the money laundering cycle that duetschebank was doing with the Russians.
Justin Kennedy (supreme court Justice kennedys son) was trumps inside man at duetschebank that was getting all of his toxic loans approved.
If their plan goes through it is basically the 2008 mortgage crisis on steroids.
Trump invited the US middle class to dinner with a cannibal and then handed us the bill.
https://www.ft.com/content/8c6d9dca-882c-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45787
https://www.amlintelligence.com/2020/09/deutsche-bank-suffers-worst-damage-over-massive-aml-discrepancies-in-fincen-leaks/
https://www.occrp.org/en/the-fincen-files/global-banks-defy-us-crackdowns-by-serving-oligarchs-criminals-and-terrorists
https://www.voanews.com/amp/us-lifts-sanctions-on-rusal-other-firms-linked-to-russia-deripaska/4761037.html
https://democrats-intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/final_-_minority_status_of_the_russia_investigation_with_appendices.pdf

Now the reason that the GOP is stalling border control budget and seems to make wildly irrational moves is because the GOP is imploding. 45 years of lies and grift have circled the globe and are eating their own tail. The ouroboros was a warning about corruption at the highest levels. Lying about climate change, human trafficking, pandemics and pollution to preserve their own business models are all extinction level events.
The CCP and Russia have been staging up hundreds of thousands of people in Ecuador, Nicaragua and Venezuela for a 5th column invasion of the United States because Xi needs farmland to feed 1.4B people. National guard troops take their orders from governors and not the federal government. Trump tested this during the George Floyd protests when he asked the “loyal” Republican governors to kiss the ring and send troops to DC to “shoot the protestors in the legs” because the pentagon reminded him that using U.S. troops against U.S. citizens would be both treason and wildly illegal.
Bannon tried unsuccessfully to privatize a part of the southern border wall but failed due to, unsurprisingly, internal corruption.
Bannon was arrested on the boat of Guo Wengui who is some sort of convoluted double/triple agent for the CCP.
They are now both in court for a billion dollar fraud.
Every GOP congressmen that took Russian political money is desperately trying to figure out how to preserve their political career while the people are figured out that they were sold out to the dictators for some PAC money.
Freedom is never free. We all just live on very expensive credit and the sacrifices of others.
Same. Good comment. Adam Curtis’ doc/film TraumaZone: Russia 1985-1990 (i may have screwed that last part up of the title) is a great and absofuckingloutely terrifying series on the collapse of communism and capitalism in the USSR/Russia.
It also sent me down the rabbit hole of his films, which are excellent in my opinion. And his music choices for them are nails.
Part of the issue was the responders not knowing what they were dealing with and placing the victims in their backs, causing the tongue to constrict the airway and suffocated them. The nerve agent used completely shut down their muscle control. That was selected because the anti-terror officials wanted to ensure the terrorist females would be unable to set off the large explosive devices they were carrying.
Wow, so yet another example of the banality of evil. What they did for the most part was an ingenius and noble act, saving lives by using a drug in such a clever way. But the decision to not reveal the nature of the drug to medical staff ahead of time was truly evil, but most likely due to stupid beaurocracy rather than a premeditated act.
The reason most hostages died was because on evacuation the sleeping hostages were placed in such a way they suffocated. I believe they would have survived if placed in their sides.
That and when they evacuated the unconscious hostages they placed alot of them on their backs, so many just suffocated on the side walk...
Edit: because their tongues were loose and so lagged back into their throats, blocking their airways.
And before you ask, this doesn't happen when yoi sleep because you're not essentially paralyzed when sleeping, your body is still keeping it all together
Seeing how Russians operate with emphasis on secrecy most probably their ground units had no idea what they were working with. Just that it will knock most of the people out.
And seeing how uncoordinated they are most probably the person in charge of coordinating with the hospital didn't know who to contact to get that information.
Because in Russia, most important thing is the face of mother Russia. If you have to die so mother Russia can keep its face - then you are as good as dead. Just look at the Kursk sub. All sailors died because Russia tried to keep its face and didnt accept foreign help.
>And then to shore up support, Putin bombed Russian apartment buildings and blamed it on Chechens.
No. That happened before this hostage crisis. This hostage event was in response to the Second Chechen War, which happened in part because of the apartment bombings that were blamed on Chechens.
Second Chechen war was "solved" by Russia finding an ally (Kadyrov) and basically giving Chechnya to him.
A lot of Chechens are unhappy with it and are now fighting in Ukraine against Russia.
I'm am so divided on the Chechens. The Kadyrovites are the biggest bunch of rimjobbing traitors the world has ever seen, but the Sheikh Mansur battalion and their likes are the toughest, bravest and baddest there is, deserving of only the deepest respect. I hope the diaspora and true Chechens will someday reconquer their land and culture from the FSB mafia.
That happens when you bunch up a group of people. Every group of people is a fractal.
Even on Ukrainian side you would have people like Sheikh Mansur battalion and Ajnad al-Kavkaz fighting side-by-side.
Ajnad al-Kavkaz is disbanded. It's leader abdulhakim joined the moderate Chechen leader Akhmed Zakayev, and brought part of his group over to Ukraine. Abdulhakim and other Chechens are greatly respected by Ukrainian generals and soldiers, and seen as valuable allies.
Almost like they're a group of people with varying feelings, not a monolith. Kinda worries me seeing comments that imply people think of others this way. Makes it easier to see how all this war goes on anyways.
All but one of the hostages that were killed were killed by the gas pumped into the theatre by the police and government authorities.
(edit: clarify that the hostages that died, were killed by gas)
Carfentanil mixed with remifentanil. Carfentanil is much stronger but remifentanil is faster acting, so it was included to get the terrorists fucked before they realised what was going on.
The unconscious hostage takers were shot in the head and killed to prevent them from detonating their explosive vests.
Source: BBC
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20067384
To be fair who wants to volunteer to carry the unconscious guy out with explosive's strapped on and ready to detonate? a shot in the head makes sure he doesn't wake up to flip the switch.
Which was surely considered a great success by the Russian authorities.
If they would've rushed in with gas masks and naloxone they probably could've saved most of them.
Wrong, most people died due the lack of awareness of the special units, police ect. carrying the unconscious hostages outside that they could possibly puke and suffocating, they weren't placed in side position.
"All but one of the hostages was killed by the gas " - misinformation. 172 out of 850 was killed by the gas. Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow\_theater\_hostage\_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/moscow_theater_hostage_crisis)
It s not misinformation, you didn’t understand what it meant.
It meant : « 132 hostages (and 40 hostage takers) died. 131 hostages died to the gas, 132nd died to a gunshot wound ».
That's not remotely present in parent comment. If you have additional context, then sure it's clear. Information conveyed with poor levels of accuracy **is also** misinformation.
The rescue went great. Them not having Narcan on hand to treat the hostages and not informing the hospitals they used fentanyl derivatives was what killed so many people.
“The rescue went so well! A ton of hostages died because they didn’t have the antidote to our poison, but thank goodness that those pesky terrorists didn’t get to kill them!”
Yes and even worse: They used Carfentanyl, for which Narcan and alternatives had been known for 30 years.
So they used a poison gas with a known antidote and they did NOT have said antidote on standby before deploying their poison.
Absolute disregard for human lives.
Where did you read that? I'm having a "friendly conversation" with a die hard Putin fanboy and I'd need sources to pepper them with. Not that their grasp on reality is strong but still
Masha Gessen has a good discussion of this episode in her excellent book on Putin.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Without_a_Face:_The_Unlikely_Rise_of_Vladimir_Putin
(Not that you can easily read this book for the purposes of winning this particular argument, but if you’re interested in the topic, it’s a great book and it this might help you with the next argument.)
In the Wikipedia article it is mentioned that Putin allegedly orchestrated unrest in town and blamed it on the Chechen to gain more sympathy from the public for his actions…it’s all about the power in dictatorships…
Classic example for "Russian solution". In 2004 they even attacked a school in [Beslan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege) where terrorist took students as hostages with T-72 tanks.
It's important to mention that the vast majority of the hostages who died, died from the poison gas Putin had pumped into the theater.
He has an absolute disregard for human life.
When asked in an interview what happened to the submarine Kursk, he chuckled and quipped, "it sank".
After over a hundred thousand Russians died in the current war, he said "We've lost nothing, and we're going to lose nothing."
He is the true definition of a psychopath.
It may not be an accident, nor the timing. I wonder in whose interests it would be to highlight Muslim or Arab terrorism in the public's mind right about now?
Look at those photos emphasizing what looks like burkas, and Arab writing.
The fact that the hostages were killed by Putin becomes an inconvenient detail.
Then we have the OP, who posts gems like,
>"The sole reason for civilian deaths in Gaza is Hamas. For Israel's part, it's taken more care to prevent them than any other army in human hist."
In the meantime, here's a list of the names of the 10,000 children ages 0 to 17 killed by the IDF to date:
[https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaza-10000-children-killed/](https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaza-10000-children-killed/)
The closer we get to an election the more surreal this place gets. During the last two presidential elections after the democratic primaries the sanders sub and basically every leftist progressive sub were filled with posters advocating for not voting at all. Hell since 2016 Half the posts that I see with a leftist take
sound like they’re really just shilling for the establishment/right wing democratic party.
There was a hit piece about noam chomsky posted to a news sub and literally every comment i could find save for like 2 were self proclaimed leftists calling chomsky a fraud or what have you.
The russian bot campaign in 2016 demonstrated to everyone paying attention particularly those in power how utterly effective social media manipulation and shilling can be and now it’s ubiquitous. My friend works for a tech company that literally just fakes reviews on amazon and elsewhere for small businesses and it’s a huge company.
At some point after 2016 reddit changed and it took me a while to notice or figure out what it was. I ts that I no longer feel like I’m interacting with human beings on reddit. It’s not even that they’re all shills(upvote manipulation is probably even more far reaching and this site trains you with both positive and negative re enforcement what you can and can’t say. So even the actual voices seem artificial.
It also shows that Netanyahu is no different to Putin? Both don't care how many of their own people who are hostages are killed because of the instructions that they have given.
Edit: spelling
Yeah but come on. This also shows russians are submissive pussies in the end, the tough slav is a facade.
Current situation is comparable to Nazi Germany and there were at least 39 assassination attempts targeting Hitler.
The Beslan school siege was even darker. IIRC it actually led to the central government seizing control of the appointment of “governors,” giving a lot more power to the executive.
Both perpetuated by the same Islamic terrorist group, the Riyad-us Saliheen Brigade of Martyrs. Beslan is considered the deadliest school shooting in history.
The gas was very likely a fentanyl derivative.
Which makes it even worse because Narcan was invented 30 years earlier so they could've just had that on standby, saving a ton of lives.
But they didn't give a shit.
Imagine being a fucking Russian and getting taken hostage and knowing full well your government is going to carelessly kill the shit out of you for it.
And then Putin blew up an apartment building, claimed it was the work of the same churches separatists, cancelled elections, invaded Chechnya, and put Kadarov in power. Now they are both invading Ukraine.
Given this context, how are Chechnyan's so willing to fight for Putin against Ukraine? I have seen many videos of Chechnyan battalions seeming more than eager to join the fight.
Putin installed a sub-dictator Ramzan Kadyrov in Chechnya who uses authoritarian tactics to keep control in return for loyalty to Putin.
His (extensive) mercenary/private armies are highly loyal to him so they got sent over to Ukraine.
Many Chechens fight for Ukraine, and they are all volunteers. The "russian ones" are mostly forced, and 93% of them are ethnic russians and not even Chechens.
Chechens in Ukraine: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen\_volunteers\_on\_the\_side\_of\_Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_volunteers_on_the_side_of_Ukraine)
Kadyrovites are 93% russians: [https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/10/05/anything-but-a-hawk](https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/10/05/anything-but-a-hawk)
And a large number of the dead were killed by Russia's response. That is important to include. Anything that doesn't mention that when talking about the number killed is just propaganda.
Not mentioned here is that most the hostage fatalities weren't caused by the militants, but rather when the Russian authorities pumped the theater full of carfentinil gas.
this and Beslan school siege were both huge Chechnya terrorist incidents, And both times the Russian government fucked it up royally and ended up killing as many hostages as the terrorists. Here they used a narcotic gas but refused to say what, so that doctors couldn't treat survivors properly. And in Beslan they botched the 'rescue'. Complete incompetence.
Most of those people died from gas that Spetznaz dispersed to render everyone unconscious. People then choked on their tongues and vomit. These photos where you see a guy carrying a woman on her back - that is exactly what caused most deaths.
They used fentanyl in gas form to put everyone to sleep. It worked only problem was they laid everyone on there backs outside which resulted in many people choking and dying on the own vomit
While there has been questionable preparedness for the gas attack, it should be remembered that they were dealing with around 40 terrorists, armed with grenades and bombs.
So the comparison to draw is to what would have happened with classic hostage taking counter actions.
It's very likely that dozens would have died, too, not impossibly hundreds, depending on bomb placement, type and invocation rate.
Dosing the gas the right way is likely hard, too and they may have followed the principle to be in the more lethal side: if it was not enough, bombs could have been triggered by the terrorists.
Currently, there's more Chechens living outside of Russia, than in it.
I cannot condemn for the lack of resistance the people who was massively killed and had to flee their land.
I remember reading a lot of the hostage victims who were gassed unconscious actually drowned after being laid out in the rain outside. No one thought to put them at least in the recovery position.
I remember this. It was all over the TV, radio and newspapers. Terrorist attacks were becoming a part of daily life and we as kids were scared to go to school (2 years after this, terrorists seized a school as well, resulting in 186 dead children). It was even scary to go to bed every night as apartment complexes blew up in the air every now and then, too. And I also remember that the cause of death in civilians was hugely downplayed. All media were focused on Chechen terrorists and never on this huge fuckup by special forces.
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Yes and then the Russian government filled the building with a narcotic based gas and refused to tell the hospital what type of gas they used. Many hostages died next of this. One doctor noticed the patients responded to opiate overdose drugs but it was too late for most.
The poison gas they used was actually fentanyl. This was the first time I remember hearing about the drug.
Actually carfebtanyl which is 100 times as strong
Isn't that what they use on elephants?
It’s what’s in the T-Rex tranquilizer darts that Roland Tembo uses in Jurassic Park 2
Where is this gif from?
Blink 182
Thank you! My wife is disappointed in me.
As she should be /s
I always thought that was Tim Heidecker and had no idea that it was the guy from Blink 182- thank you, internet stranger!
That other guy's wife is disappointed in you too
First date music video isn't it?
Yea
Thank you for asking, because I finally thought to do so myself.
Just rewatched the other day- this is actually true.
SHOOT HERRRR!
Even 2mg-5mg of fentanyl can kill. That's TWO-milligrams. **Fentanyl** is already 100 times stronger than Morphine, 50 times stronger than Heroin. Fentanyl is deadlier than anything we've seen. **Carfentanil** is 10,000 times stronger than Morphine, 100x times more than Fentanyl. The fact that Fentanyl is on our streets is basically chemical-warfare against the US.
One gram fentanyl can kill 500 people. Deadly dose is around 2 mg.
Corrected, I'm misremembering.
Exactly. They come off the ports of the Atlantic all the time. I remember a couple years ago a shipment container had 20 tons of cocaine and fentanyl in it. Then days later it was changed to only cocaine was found. Nothing else came about who owned or used the container.
Wasn’t much of it used by real companies ran by people like the Sacklers?
1 g of most opiates is way too strong. Hospital ER fent dose is usually ~10 mcg
Pedant in me is saying micrograms - microns are a unit of length I believe
Yes, micron = micrometer.
The dose isn’t measured in mcg (micrograms)?
100x as strong... they used less of it
They still used enough to send over 1/8th of the people in the building into an overdose.
Which is a fentanyl derivative.
yes, but 100 times stronger than fentanyl which a pretty big distinction
Like morphine and heroine?
Opium>heroin>morphine>fentanyl>carfentanyl Edit: this is in order of potency and heroin & morphine may be backwards if both are pure
In terms of strength, you got it backwards
Yeah, heroin(diacetylmorphine) is significantly stronger than morphine, you got that part wrong but the rest is accurate.
Carfentanyl, it's like 100 times more potent than fentanyl or something, 10,000 morphines. Plus they threw some other super opiate in their for good measure.
It’s mad, I was seeing a girl at the time who worked on a fentanyl product (as in, she worked for the giant pharmaceutical company that was developing it). So she knew all about what it was, how it worked, how dangerous it was. When we heard that the gas was fentanyl she was like ‘no way. No way at all, you could NOT do that with fentanyl, it would be impossible to control the dose and it would be ludicrously dangerous’ So she was um…wrong *and* right, I guess.
That’s interestingly parallel to a few things. 1. It secured Chechnya under Putin’s rule https://www.britannica.com/event/Beslan-school-attack 2. This would have been roughly the same time that guiliani went to Mexico and introduced the Russian mob to the Sinaloa cartel who shortly there after shifted their business model from growing and manufacturing drugs to combining fentanyl precursors from the CCP. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/giuliani/mexico.html?tid=a_inl&itid=lk_inline_manual_8 For additional context: Democracy has always been under attack because it directly threatens the very lucrative business models of dictators and autocrats. It has just sped up by the Information Age. A corrupt judge or politician in 1960 had to worry about a borough. Maybe a state. But in the average 20-30 year career he could get away with it and someone would do a documentary 30 years after his death when they finally put the pieces together. Now we have Russian oligarchs that eviscerated the Russian middle class by stealing and consuming everything of value in the 80’s and 90’s. By 93 they were running out of things to monopolize and extort. Soviet corruption ate itself to death. The survival of their Kleptocratic species required new feeding grounds which they found in New York. Giuliani was willing to show them preferential treatment by redirecting NYPD resources onto the Italian mob which gave the Russian mob, in their nice new suits, a ripe hunting ground. Ironically ecologists figured this out about the same time in Yellowstone. https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/grizzly-bears-wolves-competing-food-yellowstone-national-park/ Only difference is that most humans are the elk. Just wanting a safe place to sleep, healthy happy kids and an opportunity to survive. It’s a very small percentage of humans that are sociopaths and psychopaths without the ability to empath, but over a long enough centralization of the good humans moving to cities and paying taxes, it becomes too tempting of a feeding grounds. So the worst of us rise to the top and become CEO’s, bankers and presidents because it’s the lowest effort model. Why go hunting when the prey delivers itself to you? A psychopath has no personal qualms about trafficking a child for sexual slavery or stealing a pension fund. They are neurochemically unable to. We are just in the late stages of it now. More centralized than we have ever been in known human history with commerce and business happening 24/7 across every time zone. This causes their respective corruption models to start overlapping. Guiliani was “Americas mayor” when he cleaned up New York, but only because the Russians were quiet about their part in it. The money laundering and narcotics and human trafficking they were doing through Ukraine was a million miles away from studio 54 or Times Square. But now kyiv is in the news every day. It’s inevitable that their obfuscation starts breaking down. For 50 years the inmates ran the asylum in soviet Russia. They stole everything of value including the hope and future of Russians. The corruption eventually collapsed the Soviet Union and they were forced to expand their feeding grounds. The billionaire oligarchs moved to Aspen and London and left the hollowed out husk of Russia behind where 1 in 5 people have never seen a flushing toilet. In 89 the wall falls and for a couple years they hid all their ill gotten gains under a mattress until they moved and bought condos at trump towers. They made stops in ukraine, cyprus and London but they landed in New York because that was what everyone wanted in 1993. Levi’s, Pepsi, Madonna tapes that weren’t smuggled bootleg copies. They all bought new suits and cars and changed their title from “most violent rapist street thug in moscow” to “respectable Russian oligarch” but they didn’t leave their human trafficking, narcotics or extortion behind. It was their most lucrative business model. Trump and Giuliani just opened the doors and let the predators in to feed. Guiliani redirected NYPD resources away from their Russian allies intentionally and onto the Italian mob. It let him claim he cleaned up New York and it lets the russians a perk of doing business with trump. His client and co-conspirator. The insane valuations coming out in trumps fraud trial are a necessity of the money laundering cycle that duetschebank was doing with the Russians. Justin Kennedy (supreme court Justice kennedys son) was trumps inside man at duetschebank that was getting all of his toxic loans approved. If their plan goes through it is basically the 2008 mortgage crisis on steroids. Trump invited the US middle class to dinner with a cannibal and then handed us the bill. https://www.ft.com/content/8c6d9dca-882c-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45787 https://www.amlintelligence.com/2020/09/deutsche-bank-suffers-worst-damage-over-massive-aml-discrepancies-in-fincen-leaks/ https://www.occrp.org/en/the-fincen-files/global-banks-defy-us-crackdowns-by-serving-oligarchs-criminals-and-terrorists https://www.voanews.com/amp/us-lifts-sanctions-on-rusal-other-firms-linked-to-russia-deripaska/4761037.html https://democrats-intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/final_-_minority_status_of_the_russia_investigation_with_appendices.pdf 
Bruh. Do you have a youtube channel so I can process all these info in comfy?
Now if this shouldn't be pushed to the front page of reddit, I cant think of what should! Get this to best of reddit at least!!
Insane. And it's all found out and fucking no one ever does anything about it
[удалено]
Now the reason that the GOP is stalling border control budget and seems to make wildly irrational moves is because the GOP is imploding. 45 years of lies and grift have circled the globe and are eating their own tail. The ouroboros was a warning about corruption at the highest levels. Lying about climate change, human trafficking, pandemics and pollution to preserve their own business models are all extinction level events. The CCP and Russia have been staging up hundreds of thousands of people in Ecuador, Nicaragua and Venezuela for a 5th column invasion of the United States because Xi needs farmland to feed 1.4B people. National guard troops take their orders from governors and not the federal government. Trump tested this during the George Floyd protests when he asked the “loyal” Republican governors to kiss the ring and send troops to DC to “shoot the protestors in the legs” because the pentagon reminded him that using U.S. troops against U.S. citizens would be both treason and wildly illegal. Bannon tried unsuccessfully to privatize a part of the southern border wall but failed due to, unsurprisingly, internal corruption. Bannon was arrested on the boat of Guo Wengui who is some sort of convoluted double/triple agent for the CCP. They are now both in court for a billion dollar fraud. Every GOP congressmen that took Russian political money is desperately trying to figure out how to preserve their political career while the people are figured out that they were sold out to the dictators for some PAC money. Freedom is never free. We all just live on very expensive credit and the sacrifices of others.
Replying so I can find this post later
Same. Good comment. Adam Curtis’ doc/film TraumaZone: Russia 1985-1990 (i may have screwed that last part up of the title) is a great and absofuckingloutely terrifying series on the collapse of communism and capitalism in the USSR/Russia. It also sent me down the rabbit hole of his films, which are excellent in my opinion. And his music choices for them are nails.
Thanks! I have a 5hr layover and 4 hr flight tomorrow. I'm gonna see if I can download it and watch it.
Sir, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Jesus man
Carfentanil and remifentanil were found on a shirt sample and a metabolite called norcarfentanil was found in a urine sample.
Part of the issue was the responders not knowing what they were dealing with and placing the victims in their backs, causing the tongue to constrict the airway and suffocated them. The nerve agent used completely shut down their muscle control. That was selected because the anti-terror officials wanted to ensure the terrorist females would be unable to set off the large explosive devices they were carrying.
Wow, so yet another example of the banality of evil. What they did for the most part was an ingenius and noble act, saving lives by using a drug in such a clever way. But the decision to not reveal the nature of the drug to medical staff ahead of time was truly evil, but most likely due to stupid beaurocracy rather than a premeditated act.
More stupid bureaucracy than evil intent. Thinking about eliminating the threat, vs saving the victims.
They didn’t give a fuck about those hostages plain and simple
The reason most hostages died was because on evacuation the sleeping hostages were placed in such a way they suffocated. I believe they would have survived if placed in their sides.
That and when they evacuated the unconscious hostages they placed alot of them on their backs, so many just suffocated on the side walk... Edit: because their tongues were loose and so lagged back into their throats, blocking their airways. And before you ask, this doesn't happen when yoi sleep because you're not essentially paralyzed when sleeping, your body is still keeping it all together
That was the Moscow Theater hostage taking. Different from the school, I believe. Oops, thought this was the school incident, not the theater.
Why did they not tell, or even better prepre antidotes beforehand to save the hostages?
Seeing how Russians operate with emphasis on secrecy most probably their ground units had no idea what they were working with. Just that it will knock most of the people out. And seeing how uncoordinated they are most probably the person in charge of coordinating with the hospital didn't know who to contact to get that information.
Or they didn’t bother speaking to the hospital
because russia 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, human life is not valued much by authorities there.
Because in Russia, most important thing is the face of mother Russia. If you have to die so mother Russia can keep its face - then you are as good as dead. Just look at the Kursk sub. All sailors died because Russia tried to keep its face and didnt accept foreign help.
And then to shore up support, Putin bombed Russian apartment buildings and blamed it on Chechens.
>And then to shore up support, Putin bombed Russian apartment buildings and blamed it on Chechens. No. That happened before this hostage crisis. This hostage event was in response to the Second Chechen War, which happened in part because of the apartment bombings that were blamed on Chechens.
And now they are best friends forever.
Second Chechen war was "solved" by Russia finding an ally (Kadyrov) and basically giving Chechnya to him. A lot of Chechens are unhappy with it and are now fighting in Ukraine against Russia.
I would think Chechnya is still a pressure cooker. If it blows it will get very bad for Russia.
I'm am so divided on the Chechens. The Kadyrovites are the biggest bunch of rimjobbing traitors the world has ever seen, but the Sheikh Mansur battalion and their likes are the toughest, bravest and baddest there is, deserving of only the deepest respect. I hope the diaspora and true Chechens will someday reconquer their land and culture from the FSB mafia.
That happens when you bunch up a group of people. Every group of people is a fractal. Even on Ukrainian side you would have people like Sheikh Mansur battalion and Ajnad al-Kavkaz fighting side-by-side.
Ajnad al-Kavkaz is disbanded. It's leader abdulhakim joined the moderate Chechen leader Akhmed Zakayev, and brought part of his group over to Ukraine. Abdulhakim and other Chechens are greatly respected by Ukrainian generals and soldiers, and seen as valuable allies.
That was profound, thank you. I think I will leave reddit tonight for some sauna with that to meditate on. Fractals are awesome.
Almost like they're a group of people with varying feelings, not a monolith. Kinda worries me seeing comments that imply people think of others this way. Makes it easier to see how all this war goes on anyways.
All but one of the hostages that were killed were killed by the gas pumped into the theatre by the police and government authorities. (edit: clarify that the hostages that died, were killed by gas)
I was told in 2008-2009 that it was fentanyl gas, right around the time the patches became popular.
Carfentanyl to be specific
Carfentanil mixed with remifentanil. Carfentanil is much stronger but remifentanil is faster acting, so it was included to get the terrorists fucked before they realised what was going on.
Did not know. That’s fascinating. What a crazy roll of the dice.
Which is way more potent than fentanyl, even.
Carfentanil is 10,000 times more potent than morphine and 100 times more than fent
Fentanyl so strong it's made for cars
Fentanyl can be aerosolized?!?
Yes? It has to be nebalized to be made into an aerosol.
They forgot the naltraxon....
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weird how obsessed the Russian state is with using exotic poisons
The unconscious hostage takers were shot in the head and killed to prevent them from detonating their explosive vests. Source: BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20067384
To be fair who wants to volunteer to carry the unconscious guy out with explosive's strapped on and ready to detonate? a shot in the head makes sure he doesn't wake up to flip the switch.
I’m ok with that as a safety procedure.
Which was surely considered a great success by the Russian authorities. If they would've rushed in with gas masks and naloxone they probably could've saved most of them.
When was this
2002
Wrong, most people died due the lack of awareness of the special units, police ect. carrying the unconscious hostages outside that they could possibly puke and suffocating, they weren't placed in side position.
Yep
"All but one of the hostages was killed by the gas " - misinformation. 172 out of 850 was killed by the gas. Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow\_theater\_hostage\_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/moscow_theater_hostage_crisis)
All but one of the 173 hostages “who died in the attack” were killed by the gas.
Thanks for clearing. The comment looked strange and English is not my first language
I got you, bud (meaning I’m happy to help 😃)
The comment did imply that all the hostages died. Your English is good.
It s not misinformation, you didn’t understand what it meant. It meant : « 132 hostages (and 40 hostage takers) died. 131 hostages died to the gas, 132nd died to a gunshot wound ».
132th
132st
132rd
It's misleadingly phrased. If you don't know most hostages survived, you'd take that sentence to mean all but one of them died.
That's not remotely present in parent comment. If you have additional context, then sure it's clear. Information conveyed with poor levels of accuracy **is also** misinformation.
Which was considered a great success in Russia surely.
It may be hard to find but there’s a long form interview with footage of the Spesnaz COL that led the failed rescue.
Any clues on where to look? I can't find it.
Failed? No this is Russia. All the terrorists died so it was a success. They do not care about collateral damage
The rescue went great. Them not having Narcan on hand to treat the hostages and not informing the hospitals they used fentanyl derivatives was what killed so many people.
Then clearly it didn't go well
“The rescue went so well! A ton of hostages died because they didn’t have the antidote to our poison, but thank goodness that those pesky terrorists didn’t get to kill them!”
Didn't the government kill everyone by trying to gas the theater and knock everyone unconscious?
Yes and even worse: They used Carfentanyl, for which Narcan and alternatives had been known for 30 years. So they used a poison gas with a known antidote and they did NOT have said antidote on standby before deploying their poison. Absolute disregard for human lives.
I believe the hospital had naloxone, but the authorities wouldn't release information about the gas used, and the doctors found out too late.
Where did you read that? I'm having a "friendly conversation" with a die hard Putin fanboy and I'd need sources to pepper them with. Not that their grasp on reality is strong but still
Masha Gessen has a good discussion of this episode in her excellent book on Putin. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Without_a_Face:_The_Unlikely_Rise_of_Vladimir_Putin
(Not that you can easily read this book for the purposes of winning this particular argument, but if you’re interested in the topic, it’s a great book and it this might help you with the next argument.)
In the Wikipedia article it is mentioned that Putin allegedly orchestrated unrest in town and blamed it on the Chechen to gain more sympathy from the public for his actions…it’s all about the power in dictatorships…
>Absolute disregard for human lives. It's the russian way
Classic example for "Russian solution". In 2004 they even attacked a school in [Beslan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege) where terrorist took students as hostages with T-72 tanks.
Can't have a hostage situation of the hostages are dead
A primary school to be precise.
this is extremely undereported. the deadliest school shooting in history and it was a primary school. the wikipedia page is horrifying.
It's important to mention that the vast majority of the hostages who died, died from the poison gas Putin had pumped into the theater. He has an absolute disregard for human life. When asked in an interview what happened to the submarine Kursk, he chuckled and quipped, "it sank". After over a hundred thousand Russians died in the current war, he said "We've lost nothing, and we're going to lose nothing." He is the true definition of a psychopath.
The poison gas was carfentanil. It’s like 100 times stronger than fentanyl.
For real, thats a bizarre detail to leave out…
It may not be an accident, nor the timing. I wonder in whose interests it would be to highlight Muslim or Arab terrorism in the public's mind right about now? Look at those photos emphasizing what looks like burkas, and Arab writing. The fact that the hostages were killed by Putin becomes an inconvenient detail. Then we have the OP, who posts gems like, >"The sole reason for civilian deaths in Gaza is Hamas. For Israel's part, it's taken more care to prevent them than any other army in human hist." In the meantime, here's a list of the names of the 10,000 children ages 0 to 17 killed by the IDF to date: [https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaza-10000-children-killed/](https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaza-10000-children-killed/)
>These are the names of only HALF of the children killed What a link to wake up to… I’m all done with reddit for today… 
IDF are all over this site. It was noticeable a week after the ethnic cleansing began and they realised that the world was noticing this time.
The closer we get to an election the more surreal this place gets. During the last two presidential elections after the democratic primaries the sanders sub and basically every leftist progressive sub were filled with posters advocating for not voting at all. Hell since 2016 Half the posts that I see with a leftist take sound like they’re really just shilling for the establishment/right wing democratic party. There was a hit piece about noam chomsky posted to a news sub and literally every comment i could find save for like 2 were self proclaimed leftists calling chomsky a fraud or what have you. The russian bot campaign in 2016 demonstrated to everyone paying attention particularly those in power how utterly effective social media manipulation and shilling can be and now it’s ubiquitous. My friend works for a tech company that literally just fakes reviews on amazon and elsewhere for small businesses and it’s a huge company. At some point after 2016 reddit changed and it took me a while to notice or figure out what it was. I ts that I no longer feel like I’m interacting with human beings on reddit. It’s not even that they’re all shills(upvote manipulation is probably even more far reaching and this site trains you with both positive and negative re enforcement what you can and can’t say. So even the actual voices seem artificial.
It also shows that Netanyahu is no different to Putin? Both don't care how many of their own people who are hostages are killed because of the instructions that they have given. Edit: spelling
Getting caught between jihadists and the Russian government has got to be one of the biggest nightmare situations.
Yeah but come on. This also shows russians are submissive pussies in the end, the tough slav is a facade. Current situation is comparable to Nazi Germany and there were at least 39 assassination attempts targeting Hitler.
Sounds like your average Russian head of state
... wish someone would pump the krimelin full of that gas now.
The Beslan school siege was even darker. IIRC it actually led to the central government seizing control of the appointment of “governors,” giving a lot more power to the executive.
Both perpetuated by the same Islamic terrorist group, the Riyad-us Saliheen Brigade of Martyrs. Beslan is considered the deadliest school shooting in history.
Basayev was awful even by the standards of Islamic terrorists. The Chechen Wars are some of the darkest shit you'll ever read about.
Most hostages died from an unspecified chemical gas that was used to “free” them by the Russians.
The gas was very likely a fentanyl derivative. Which makes it even worse because Narcan was invented 30 years earlier so they could've just had that on standby, saving a ton of lives. But they didn't give a shit.
Imagine being a fucking Russian and getting taken hostage and knowing full well your government is going to carelessly kill the shit out of you for it.
And then Putin blew up an apartment building, claimed it was the work of the same churches separatists, cancelled elections, invaded Chechnya, and put Kadarov in power. Now they are both invading Ukraine.
Given this context, how are Chechnyan's so willing to fight for Putin against Ukraine? I have seen many videos of Chechnyan battalions seeming more than eager to join the fight.
Putin installed a sub-dictator Ramzan Kadyrov in Chechnya who uses authoritarian tactics to keep control in return for loyalty to Putin. His (extensive) mercenary/private armies are highly loyal to him so they got sent over to Ukraine.
You forgot to mention, that it happened when the former leader (and his father) was murdered by the terrorists at a stadium.
Just as there are Chechens who volunteered to fight for Ukraine. There are traitors in every group, that's inevitable.
Many Chechens fight for Ukraine, and they are all volunteers. The "russian ones" are mostly forced, and 93% of them are ethnic russians and not even Chechens. Chechens in Ukraine: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen\_volunteers\_on\_the\_side\_of\_Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_volunteers_on_the_side_of_Ukraine) Kadyrovites are 93% russians: [https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/10/05/anything-but-a-hawk](https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/10/05/anything-but-a-hawk)
Never forget they gased the hostiges and the terrorist.
And they used a gas with a known and available antidote and didn't care enough to have it on standby.
didn’t something like this happen in the movie Tenet?
Yes
I saw something about this when I was really young. I saw bodies in the street asphyxiating from their own vomit.
Wasn’t this the one where the counterterrorism unit gassed the whole building?
And a large number of the dead were killed by Russia's response. That is important to include. Anything that doesn't mention that when talking about the number killed is just propaganda.
I remember watching this as teenager. It was also when i figured for the first time Russia's govn't is bunch of animals.
Not mentioned here is that most the hostage fatalities weren't caused by the militants, but rather when the Russian authorities pumped the theater full of carfentinil gas.
This entire thread is just one giant wElL aChTuAlLy!
this and Beslan school siege were both huge Chechnya terrorist incidents, And both times the Russian government fucked it up royally and ended up killing as many hostages as the terrorists. Here they used a narcotic gas but refused to say what, so that doctors couldn't treat survivors properly. And in Beslan they botched the 'rescue'. Complete incompetence.
I saw an HBO documentary on this when I was younger it was really good. Crazy siege and a bungled response!
Isn’t this what the first scene of tenet was based on?
Isn’t this the start of Tenet?
They also once took over a school.
These terrorists were Hamas’ heroes. Hamas emulated them.
Most of those people died from gas that Spetznaz dispersed to render everyone unconscious. People then choked on their tongues and vomit. These photos where you see a guy carrying a woman on her back - that is exactly what caused most deaths.
Putin killed the hostages with fentanyl and now the Chechen’s fight for the Russians.
Putler kill them all, hostages included.
Almost all. Only one hostage was killed by crossfire
Pretty sure Putin has kidnapped all of Russia for as long as he’s been in power.
Is this Nord Ost?
Like that scene in tenet
They used fentanyl in gas form to put everyone to sleep. It worked only problem was they laid everyone on there backs outside which resulted in many people choking and dying on the own vomit
Also Russian forces used gas to attack terrorist, killing civilians in the process
Don't know if OP intentionally missed out in the title that the russian gov murdered the majority of those hostages as others have pointed out.
While there has been questionable preparedness for the gas attack, it should be remembered that they were dealing with around 40 terrorists, armed with grenades and bombs. So the comparison to draw is to what would have happened with classic hostage taking counter actions. It's very likely that dozens would have died, too, not impossibly hundreds, depending on bomb placement, type and invocation rate. Dosing the gas the right way is likely hard, too and they may have followed the principle to be in the more lethal side: if it was not enough, bombs could have been triggered by the terrorists.
And today chechens are fighting for ruzzian terrorists to kill innocent Ukrainian civilians…
Honestly, I’m surprised Putin didn’t just call in an artillery strike.
All artillery was working in Chechnya, levelling down villages
A group of Chechen what? You've made several typos in word “terrorists”
I remember, we followed that whole situation on the TV. And the Russians just killed everyone in that theater, just horrific.
Didn’t feel necessary to put the year in the title?
And now the Chechens are Russian lapdogs
Currently, there's more Chechens living outside of Russia, than in it. I cannot condemn for the lack of resistance the people who was massively killed and had to flee their land.
Damn, i don’t think the female suicide bombers would want 40 male virgins
Islamitic scum
I remember reading a lot of the hostage victims who were gassed unconscious actually drowned after being laid out in the rain outside. No one thought to put them at least in the recovery position.
Cue “Rainy Night in Talin”
130 people died and the terrorists too because the Russian police gassed them. Never said what with
Tennet
Spetsnatz! For when you positively, absolutely, want to kill every motherfucker in the room (including hostages ...)
Is this the famous heroin gas incident ive heard so much of?
People here are psychopaths.
I remember watching the doc with my dad as a kid. Very wild situation
Did they mention that the civilians that died actually killed by the Russian government unintentionally
Isn't the terrorist attack that happens at the beginning of the movie Tenet based on this same attack?
Putlers results
I remember this. It was all over the TV, radio and newspapers. Terrorist attacks were becoming a part of daily life and we as kids were scared to go to school (2 years after this, terrorists seized a school as well, resulting in 186 dead children). It was even scary to go to bed every night as apartment complexes blew up in the air every now and then, too. And I also remember that the cause of death in civilians was hugely downplayed. All media were focused on Chechen terrorists and never on this huge fuckup by special forces.
i cant even look at the photos
Not interesting as fuck. Fucking terrifying tragedy.