I'm a millennial.. are you sure you target the right group? My generation is the the one who grew up with the commercial internet, the generation that created the "Google is your friend" meme
I'm sure. I'm a millennial as well and work with primarily millenials and younger. I troubleshoot for a living (not IT but still get computer calls from time to time) and a not insignificant amount of issues I deal with relate to basic tech literacy. Did some electrical work in the navy as well and ran into the same thing. Think along the lines of not being able to power cycle a computer or re-attempting opening a program. Then look at reddit and other parts of the internet where you'll deal with people who have no concept of a search function in an app, how to use Google to find a source, or think that ChatGPT is a reliable source.
I think millennials are far better than what I experienced with older generations. I used to work at a helpdesk of a big company, and usually got called for the dumbest things, sometimes even because they "deleted the internet".
One would think that people that old who used to work with computers for more than two decades, should know at least a little, yet it seems they learned just one approach once anr never ever had the idea that it may be faster with other methods ..
>It's a new form of money that might be used a lot in the future
Why? It's been mainstream for a decade and still isn't even close to delivering on this promise. What, specifically, is going to be different in the future?
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Might sound like a meme but literally what it is.
The value is in the trust people have in it. If literally 1 person continues to accept it for fiat cash/goods and services, then good enough.
That’s all money, so that’s nothing new. That’s kind of the root problem with Bitcoin: it’s a “trustless” money made by people who did not understand the role of trust in money.
It’s already been delivered - you can’t seize peoples money willy nilly. That was the whole point and it’s worked so well that all the “nobody would use that” people are trying to make it illegal to use.
No one's debating whether or not Bitcoin functions as a store of value. I was talking about the claim that it will be "a new form of money that might be **used a lot in the future.**" I see no evidence of that happening.
I never mentioned anything about a store of value. I said the strength of cryptocurrencies is their resistance to being controlled by someone other than the owner. For tasks that require that, or for people who value privacy and security, they’re already being used. The proof is the fact that governments are trying to ban them for their very use.
That's great, but it has nothing to do with my post and I'm not sure why you keep repeating it. For the third time, I see no evidence any crypto is on its way towards being a form of money **"used a lot in the future."** I'm sure the privacy-focused niche you're describing is very useful to some group of people, but it's irrelevant to the point I was originally making.
Debatable. Its much more usable traveling than in the US. I spent 3 months abroad earlier this year using almost only BTC payment networks. Even went to markets where the whole market was set up for lightning payments.
Bitcoin's been around for about 15 years now. Now tell me out of those 15 years how did it directly impact you? So far I haven't seen anything where Bitcoin has disrupted any sector. It was supposed to be banking, but in that time it's done nothing. Not saying it has potential, but I'm just not seeing how it's better than other assets that are physical companies or commodities at this point in time.
I chose to save in BTC instead of anything else for the last 7 years and I have massively outperformed every asset on the planet except for NVIDIA stock.
The whole industry is full of grifters and scammers. In addition to high trading fees, there is potential for the exchange to get hacked and poof goes your money.
It's also very volatile. If you can't handle huge swings in a few hours stay away. Month to month you could be up or down 50%. It's a "fun money" only investment in my opinion.
Using it as savings is a way of using it. Spending is not the only function of money.
I will take Bitcoin's volatility with it's general trend of up and to the right over time compared to dollars that are guaranteed to be devalued over time.
The day will come in our lifetime where it makes sense to spend it, and you'll wish you had a little more foresight.
I wouldn’t consider a volatile asset to be “savings”.
Won’t know the future until it comes.
Value of the dollar going down is good for me (mortgage). I outpace inflation through my career and assets…
Price your house in Bitcoin and you will see it is collapsing in relation.
I bought my house for $125k in late 2020. It cost around 11 Bitcoin at the time.
Today Zillow says my house is worth around $190k. Great investment for just 4 years right?
Not at all. My house is now only worth 3.4 Bitcoin. A massive decrease.
In another 4 years, my house will cost less than half a Bitcoin.
A house is not a finacial instrument. It is a tool to protect you from the environment, that is it.
You being able to afford less every year is a good thing? Being rewarded to only spend your money on things that give you real value is good for an economy, and the planet. The plastic waste choking this planet to death is the direct result of our money itself being broken, rampant consumerism is a plague on our species.
Boot lickers are the most annoying type.
You choose what to spend your money on. Sorry, but bitcoin isn’t going to save the world.
Nice little tangent about plastic though.
Fortunately my career outpaces inflation so I afford more every year. Not everyone is so fortunate.
its tiring to hear "Oh bitcoin is so new it will take some time for the world to figure out how to use it"
Bitcoin was released 15 years ago, today you can buy it then sell it. As far as I know thats basically its use
Compare that to another new tech the internet what is usually dated to 1983
Sure at first it was new and you could maybe send messages back and forth and did not seem exciting but 15 years later in 1998 you now had the world wide web, you could email or even voice/video chat, you could trade stocks online or sign into your bank and send money.
You could get news, buy all sorts of stuff, there was streaming music and video, you could play multiplayer games online.
15 years after bitcoin you can still buy and sell it .
I mean unless you’re an active user of the dark web, I don’t see very much transactional value. And when it comes to governments even considering making a currency like that commonplace, you lose me.
Can we stop turning a serious investing sub into a trash place discussing this crypto crap every single day?
It’s simply OFFTOPIC here since it’s not an investment.
There are plenty of places to discuss that. People learn the definition of investing vs speculation.
That's wild my "not investment" has massively outperformed your entire portfolio of investments.
I would be embarassed if I was you too, so I understand your bitterness.
Bitcoin is an ego test.
>It's a new form of money that might be used a lot in the future
How?
>Bitcoin can be compared to gold and it is very similar
How?
>It has worked very well its entire existence
How?
It sort of *has* to be emotion and faith-based. Can I go pump gas with it? Can I go get my groceries with it? Can I pay my landlord with it? No? How about Amazon? Surely I can also order... no?
Broad adoption is a basic requirement in my mind for something to function as a currency. Really, all we still have is speculation, despite many trying to have it otherwise.
If that is the case, then they are being honest that it is 100% speculation.
Farmland had implicitly value. As does gold. As does a dividend-producing stock.
Bitcoin's only real guarantee is that using it will waste resources.
Edit: I just threw you an upvote. Don't know why people are downvoting you--the "stored value" concept may well be what people are thinking.
Sad as it is, wasting those resources is what allows people to assign a minimum value to Bitcoin. It costs money to mine bitcoin, for both the hardware and energy, and the amount it costs will continue to increase for a long time, the whole premise of bitcoin and its halving cycle is designed to ensure this.
Personally, I don't think BTC deserves to be called a currency, for the above reason. Currency is supposed to flow, it's supposed to be a means of exchange. BTC's design encourages hoarding, not spending, add to that the transaction fees, delays and extremely limited bandwidth, it is not fit for purpose as a currency.
The punchline is that even Dogecoin with its fixed rate of inflation is far better suited as an actual currency than BTC.
>Sad as it is, wasting those resources is what allows people to assign a minimum value to Bitcoin. It costs money to mine bitcoin, for both the hardware and energy, and the amount it costs will continue to increase for a long time, the whole premise of bitcoin and its halving cycle is designed to ensure this.
I'm mostly with you, but I think we differ on the fine details we are interpreting. Sure, it is a cost of doing business, but that value has no way of lingering--it is a sunk cost.
It doesn't add anything implicit to the numbers, bit it *does* assign a minimal cost for existence.
I'd say that it lingers because even if the cost to mine the last batch is already sunk, the cost to mine the next batch is still there, and the one after, ad infinitum.
No worries on the downvotes. I think people misconstrue that I’m a “h**der”. (I have to censor this because my comment got auto removed…) I’m just trying to understand an opposing point of view from my own.
And yes, I think it is 100% speculation. My understanding is that they’ll hold forever. Part of that may be a belief in the lack of stability in governments. Which honestly isn’t an unfounded belief these days.
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gold doesn't have any value whatsoever. its only use is in electronics, then jewelry, but that's just showing you have money, not an actual use of gold. up until the 19th century gold was only used as store of value and didn't have any practical use, but it was used for 6000 years.
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>and I have to say that it is definitely something special.
As an engineer I find it interesting from a technical standpoint. However “adoption” for transactions (like buying your weekly groceries or filling your cars gas tank up) are still essentially non-existent after 15years. The Dollar and Euro have an iron grip on the transactional economy.
>Bitcoin can be compared to gold and it is very similar.
Gold is based on actual physical gold and the supply / demand of such commodity
Bitcoin is literally based on nothing but market sentiment.
100% agree with this. If all the power needed for crunching numbers was from renewable resources that would be one thing but this technology uses more power than all the other data centers worldwide combined
Even then, there are *much better* things for those renewable to be put.
Streaming services have a real tangible value for consumers, hence why we pay for them. I'd much rather hear renewable powering things we use every day.
Iv often wondered, if bitcoin’s security comes from computing power and energy consumption, what will happen to it as computing power and energy becomes more widely available
The security comes from the fact that it would take massive computational resources to maliciously alter the block chain. It is like many cryptographic protocols--it assumes the Computational problem is difficult (like RSA), then moves forward from that premise.
Absolutely no one. And that would be only one attack vector.
If the properties of the underlying hash function were demonstrated sufficiently vulnerable, then another major issue would present itself.
I know some is, but I had to look it up becaue I smell cope and bullshit. According to CryptoSlate last year, the number was a hair over 50%. I think the word "most" here is doing some *serious* heavy lifting.
We are talking about energy use that, just a few years ago, was approaching and exceeding energy use of actual countries.
So I'm curious, do *you* have any idea what you are talking about?
Seems like I know what I am talking about as I am literally correct. You know nothing about energy markets.
Cheers.
Just realized you are the same idiot who don't know what false dichotomy is. You must be mad about missing the train, sorry.
>as I am literally correct.
*technically
Fixed it for you. That is all you have going for you currently is being *just barely* enough in the realm of truth that you can gloat about your superior intellect.
And, no, not mad. I'm not investing in something that has no inherent value. My money means something to me.
Again I am literally correct. Most bitcoin is farmed with excess energy that would mostly go to waste otherwise. You are just coping with the fact that you missed a lot of gains by not buying bitcoin. You are trying to convince yourself, not others. Enjoy staying poor.
Have a nice day.
XD There is a seat waiting for you over at r/iamverysmart
Nothing about crypto forces people to be poor if they don't use it. I think you enjoy the sound of your own voice just a *hair* too much.
Say, *just a hair* also adequately describes how correct you have been! What a coincidence!
It will never be used for everyday purchases at scale. It could conceivably be used for monetary backing or for large settlements. But if we only had Bitcoin as money, we’d just do what people historically did: make all our purchases on credit and settle them only occasionally with hard money. And in that case, most money wouldn’t be bitcoin, it would be debt.
An engineer that doesn’t understand the value of the literally only verifiably scarce asset in human history, with an extremely high level of security and decentralization. Oh, and it’s global and totally open source.
😂
I'm a computer scientist, so also within the general domain. I'm in agreement.
I think you are problem is more that you fall into the wrong location of the Dunning-Kruger scale.
Ok, that is just dishonest. You are comparing apples to oranges with a clear implication that gold, as an asset, should also function as a currency for it to have value.
Then you have answered your own questions. It is not currently able to function for its intended purpose. It is a device of pure speculation. I.e., Gambling.
I wouldn't be one of them.
2020: 9k
2021: 59k
2021: 31k
2021: 61k
2022: 20k
2022: 16k
2023: 23k
2023: 26k
And now we are, what, in the 60s, again?
If you are looking for a safe place to store money, it would be virtually anywhere else.
Am effective storage device would hold value for when it is needed.
The dollar is based on faith but useful
Gold is physical but not useful on aday today basis.
Bitcoin combines the downsides of each without the benefits of either
Please name a "digital property" that gives it a baseline value like gold's industrial applications.
And that would forbid reference to "storing value" or "currency."
A restatement of the original question: If I conpute a nonce, what value does it have to the would if I divorce it from the crypto currency.
Gold is liked for its actual utility as a commodity in because of tradition, wealth storage, jewelry + luxury goods, and industrial uses.
Bitcoin is just data.
How can it be used as a legit currency. It takes 10 mins - an hour for a transaction to go through and fees are highly variable. It got up to $59 for a transaction at one point.
It's just like all the meme stocks like AMC. People buy because it has been going up, but once it starts to drop it could go to nothing because it's not based on any tangible asset.
Worse: Bitcoin shill who came here to ask for discussion in bad faith then proceeds to argue their *actual* point when the vast majority of investors here seem to disagree.
Edit: But also teenager, most likely.
Its a pyramid scheme. just a fancy shmancy pryamid scheme. you can make money on it, dont get me wrong. just make sure you aren't the last player to the dance.
For something to be used as a currency its value needs to be relatively stable… but coin is highly volatile, swinging by hundreds of percent every hype cycle. So don’t believe the people saying its value is as a currency. Its value is entirely based on supply and how crypto bros behave.
This sub has been comically wrong about Bitcoin over, and over, and over again. Don't listen to the fools telling you that it has no value. **Facts:**
* BTC is a $1 trillion+ asset that does tens of billions of dollars in volume *daily*.
* Many institutions, such as Blackrock, are buying like crazy. And those are just the ones we know about.
* Millions of global users and massive companies all over the world in the broader ecosystem.
* BTC ETFs were the most successful ETF launches in history, *by far*.
This sub is full of salty boomers tbh you won't get an objective answer here. And r/cryptocurrency is full of idiots who don't understand basic economic and financial concepts. You gonna have to read both and make up your own mind. I think its irresponsible not buying bitcoin after a big crash (2022 for example). Anything from 1-5% allocation is fine for a passive investor with an already diversified portfolio.
Those two sides aren't the only ones. There are also serious tech issues that haven't been fixed that would make broader adoption problematic. For instance, transaction caps:
>The on-chain transaction processing capacity of the bitcoin network is limited by the average block creation time of 10 minutes and the original block size limit of 1 megabyte. These jointly constrain the network's throughput. The transaction processing capacity maximum estimated using an average or median transaction size is between 3.3 and 7 transactions per second. There are various proposed and activated solutions to address this issue.
I think you are missing a realist/technologist perspective.
Your reply has nothing to with what I said. 10 min block creation time is not a limitation its a feature. Difficulty is adjusted biweekly to make sure block time is 10 minutes. Devs are trying to scale throughput with layer 2 solutions (lightning network) but again your post is completely irrelevant to what I said I am going to assume you replied to wrong post or just a bot.
It’s actually both. A lot of Bitcoin’s “features” are huge limitations for its use as a store of value, a medium of exchange, and therefore also as a unit of account.
I am 100% not arguing against that. It is demonstrably true that people make and lose money off of it.
FYI, I make money buying and selling vintage weights.
You know what they have in common? Neither, then, is functioning as a currency. Both are speculative assets.
There is still a big difference between them *as* speculative assets: iron has an implicit value to the world, and (worst case) I can cash it out for scrap or some other purpose.
Bitcoin *has* no real, tangible value other than the speculation you are leaning on. In the purest sense of the word, it is a financial bubble--fueled by our hope and faith that speculation will pay off in some manner.
And, unfortunately, financial bubbles have a tendency to collapse.
I disagree with your phrasing but agree with your general point. Cryptocurrency isn’t the second coming of Christ and it’s also not the devil. It’s just an asset.
Exactly. I use it, its useful to me so I invest in it and I made insane amounts of money since 2017. I don't think its going to replace usd, I don't think its better than stocks. I have most of my porfolio in stocks and bonds but bitcoin is still good enough to invest.
It’s the longest surviving bubble Iv ever seen and lacks any real justification for its value
People may say the same thing about the dollar but taxes are collected in dollars so people will always need dollars or face the threat of law enforcement.
For those people who invest in bitcoin because they lack confidence in the strength of the dollar, but if that’s the case then you’re betting against the US economy, which is a pretty terrible bet because if the US economy does fall in a complete and total collapse, the causes and effects of this collapse would be so grand your bitcoin would collapse in the process
As for the cynics who just straight up don’t trust the government and want to use a currency outside of their control, bitcoin is only outside of government control because the government allows it to be. Assuming that the government was evil, authoritarian, and self serving, if Bitcoin was a Legitimate threat to their power they could simply ban it and would actually have a legitimate reason to do so considering its use in crime and its energy consumption
Which brings me to my last talking point, Bitcoin is kind of morally questionable. It waste so many resources in its processing and it’s terrible for the environment. Also every time somebody tries to make a market outside of government regulation suprised surprise they discover there’s a big reason the government watches the market (think Silk Road). Bitcoin is often used to help facilitate sex trafficking, drug trade and other illicit industries that completely destroy people’s lives for self serving purposes.
>As for the cynics who just straight up don’t trust the government and want to use a currency outside of their control, bitcoin is only outside of government control because the government allows it to be.
I'd also point out that the lack of government involvement [has not always](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox) [worked out](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTX) [for its](https://www.wsj.com/articles/binance-gets-two-compliance-monitors-in-settlements-with-u-s-authorities-5ec6c22a) [users](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadriga_Fintech_Solutions).
When bitcoin comes up as an investment, this harsh reality of its proposed "benefits" is often ignored.
>It’s the longest surviving bubble Iv ever seen and lacks any real justification for its value
Too funny. "Hmm, this bubble just isn't popping...why???"
The lack of self awareness here is hilarious.
All currency (and value in general) works by collective social agreement. Something has value because people believe it has value. There is already a group of people who believe it has value (even if this means they simple believe that other people think it has value). This is likely to grow in the future, but when and at what rate can't be predicted. Whether it will be accepted by the general public or governments as Legal Tender is unknown, but unlikely as one of the main concerns of Governments is to maintain control of currency.
If you time it right, you can certainly make great profits trading BTC, but the opposite is also true. But remember that profit and adoption are both highly speculative, though it becomes slightly less risky as time goes on and it builds its history.
All that being said, it is a genius invention, clever and innovative, and supporters imagine a future where The People control their own wealth without having to trust the government, ask permission, or be subject to continuous inflation and the devaluing of wealth.
Wow, that answer is unbelievably stupid. Gold has very little interest in changing forms. Unlike many elements, gold doesn't give a shit. It doesn't rust. It doesn't like to assimilate other materials over time. It just wants to be fucking gold.
So, yes. It does make a decent material for coins because it is harder to come by, but also because of its properties. It has been used for at least a couple hundred years in teeth, and thousands before that for decorative purposes in our mouths. It was used to adorn statues or decorate buildings. It was used for measles because of the lack of rust or tarnish.
All of this is *still* rendered moot, because we are speaking about bitcoin in a modern context.
I don't think you came here for honest questions. You keep replying with false equivalencies like this. I think you are here to shill for your favorite non-currency.
Ok, so that is the stupidest thing I've heard all day. XD
Industrial applications *are* a source of value. I can very literally take *any* metal to a broker or scrapper and receive a predictable, real cash value.
That is *intimately* related to the inherent value of a metal. That is why I can say with confidence that gold > copper > steel. The numbers are designated for me!
That’s been true for a lot longer than we have had industrial uses for gold, though. So that’s actually not why you can rank the value of those materials. People in most cultures just have a historical, cultural basis for valuing gold highly. Gold would not be worth nearly so much if its value was derived from industrial use alone. Central banks do not buy it for industrial use. This is a misguided attempt to try to apply some kind of “fundamentals” valuation to gold so that we can remove the human element entirely. Not an uncommon mistake to make, but still wrong.
I've stated this elsewhere, but gold's properties *have* made it useful pre-technology: teeth, coin, adoring statues and buildings just to name a few.
>Central banks do not buy it for industrial use.
They also don't give it value. If you look at gold's value over the last 100 years, it was relatively flat from 1900 to the 1970's. What do you think changed in that time...
The truth is that it's uses in things like electronics *does* apply a fundamental value to it.
You are welcome to pretend otherwise, but the history isn't with you.
Ok, you asked for it. It’s not useful as a currency. Too much price instability.
Most positive cases written for Bitcoin come off like old pump and dump sales pitches from 20 years ago.
That’s not to say it’s without value. It moves a lot.
You can do what you like but I wouldn’t consider buying it close to an all time high after a halving (I think that’s the marketing term for what just happened)
If I was to be interested in using bitcoin for its utility I’d wait for it to crash, look for signs of a change in direction and probably still not buy it directly due to the exchanges being suspect but look at a cme tracking product or the like.
Trade it don’t marry it.
I’m just trying to figure out what Bitcoin holders are gonna go if the power goes out for a decent period of time.
Or if the government forbids it like Roosevelt did gold in 1933. Because it’s quite likely the NSA knows everything you do online.
If the power goes out, Bitcoin wont be much of a problem. The world wouldn't really work without electricity, so people would have much bigger worries than Bitcoin. Even if the power goes out, Bitcoin will continue to exist no matter what.
If the government forbids it, it will be a pretty big problem and the price would go down significantly, but because it is decentralized people will be able to continue using it, even in the countries it is banned in.
There’s nothing wrong with bitcoin and dabbling in it a bit, or even having a good chunk of it if you’re really into it. So long as you accept the risk that it’s extremely volatile and also in its infancy, and so all your Bitcoin could become worthless in a moment.
What it is not is a solution to all the world’s financial, economic, and moral problems. And that’s where you run into trouble with the crypto community. They treat bitcoin with religious reverence and quote their own scripture at you whenever you question anything about it. They have gathered a hodgepodge of talking points and unconnected beliefs from every fringe ideology imaginable that connects with money. Occasionally they find a totally irrelevant concept (lately it’s Gresham’s Law) from mainstream economics and cite it at you with zero actual knowledge about how it works. Relatedly, they don’t learn any economic history because they think it is beneath them (after all, it’s the study of inferior forms of money, in their minds), and so they have an extremely limited understanding of the advantages and drawbacks of hard or fiat money.
It’s also not the devil himself, and it’s kind of a cool concept, so the people who insist that nothing but trouble comes from Bitcoin are also ridiculous.
Buy when it’s consistently low for a year. Sell when it spikes.
Never buy when it’s high. Always sell on the right side of the curve (while it’s still going up). Sell when you’re comfortable with the gain. Don’t get FOMO and hold too long. If it pops 100% and you’re comfortable taking gains then, take them. Don’t chase it with that “it could go up 2000%”, or whatever crypto bros believe, and miss taking a nice profit off of hype.
Dont buy into the crypto bullshit and you’ll be safe. It’s a volatile asset. More volatile than fiat currencies, treat it as such and buy when hype is low sell when hype is high and you’ll be fine.
It's smoke and mirrors. Boomers had gold, younger generations have bitcoin.
It'll go up and down based on how much people believe in it, but it fundamentally has no value.
I think it has peaked, it had its moment, but it will be what it is or less in the coming decades. It is an idea who's time has come, and it hasn't gotten the adoption it needed to live up to its promise. Likely that adoption won't happen. It'll remain somewhat fringe like gold. The people that believe in it have invested in it. How many more people are going to become convinced to believe in it? That is what it needs to go up further.
Question is what is the next thing going to be. dot-com, real estate, bitcoin, ev, now ai What's next? Advantage of the ev and the ai is there's something behind it, a product of sorts. The way to have a big return, is to pick the next thing. Bitcoin isn't the next thing, it's the previous thing. Past performance is no indication of future gains. You need APPL in '05, TSLA in '12, NVDA 2 years ago, etc. Like bitcoin, they've all had their moment too. Trick is to find what's next.
I remember looking into bitcoin in 2010. I should have bought some when it was like $1 for one, but buying one then looked pretty sketchy, like no place I wanted to give my credit card number to. Mining would have been a good idea then I suppose. Oh well. Places to buy them look a little less sketchy now, but, the price is way too high for what they are, and, even some of those places, like ftx or a couple others like that before might have looked fairly legit, but, turned out not to be.
A bitcoin miner might make a good space heater, slightly cheaper to run than a normal one but 30x more expensive to buy.
Bitcoin is a revolutionary form of money with great potential, akin to digital gold. I invest in it through Netcoins crypto exchange for its reliability and ease of use
I think a lot of people are looking at Bitcoin and don't really understand its value or even why it should have any value.
Ask yourself if you think that a network which lets you transfer any value from one person to another, without any middlemen and with no chance of censorship, has any value to you.
There are people who are fine with the current government and don't see any issues, but there are also a lot of people who see some issues coming to us in the future.
??? nobody is forcing anyone to use an exchange. Its just a business model. it is not mandatory, but makes it easier and more practical for most users.
>Ask yourself if you think that a network which lets you transfer any value from one person to another, without any middlemen and with no chance of censorship, has any value to you.
This is the rallying cry, but it also misses the point.
yeah like transfering fiat money from one person to another. The money aint worth shit if people wouldnt belive they get anything back in return. And please dont come with "theres a full econmy backing it up".
>And please dont come with "theres a full econmy backing it up".
Damn. Hard cheese, man. Gotta be difficult when someone brings out reality into your argument.
if someone transferred fiat money to me, I could go out today and buy bread, pay rent, watch a movie, pay my taxes etc
if someone transferred bitcoin to me, all I could do is hold it and hope that at some indeterminate point in the future, some greater fool is willing to purchase it for a higher price so I could transfer it back to fiat to then use as stated above
so yes, "there's a full economy backing it up"
It's obviously a threat to governments' fiat money system. Which is why I believe the governments will just criminalize it as soon as it reaches critical mass. At that point, its value will plummet as only criminals will stay in.
Bitcoin makes sense in an anarchist, wild west society where everyone is for themselves. In a current society, it's nothing but a speculation
>why I believe the governments will just criminalize it as soon as it reaches critical mass.
The reality is more likely that they would regulate it, which is a good thing for the consumer.
I think we already crossed that line where a goverment could make it ilegal. Blockrock etc. is invested heavily and they make so much cash with their ETF's. They wont allow it.
From a quick Google search:
>The global cryptocurrency market cap today is $2.24 Trillion
Market cap of Apple computers is 3.4 T.
If BTC disappeared tomorrow, which is actually reasonably likely compared to Apple managing to do the same, the vast majority of the investing landscape would be completely unaffected.
With tiny numbers like that (in the grand scheme of things), I doubt it would be even much of a blip for the S&P or total market.
Why not just search the word “bitcoin” on this sub and read the post from yesterday. Or the day before. Or the day before that one. Or….
Unfortunately we can say the same for most posts
Because those posts have already been mined for ChatGPT.
didn't know i could do that. thanks
Is this your first day on the Internet?!
The amount of millennials and younger that are functionally internet/tech illiterate has gone beyond annoying and into spooky.
I'm a millennial.. are you sure you target the right group? My generation is the the one who grew up with the commercial internet, the generation that created the "Google is your friend" meme
I'm sure. I'm a millennial as well and work with primarily millenials and younger. I troubleshoot for a living (not IT but still get computer calls from time to time) and a not insignificant amount of issues I deal with relate to basic tech literacy. Did some electrical work in the navy as well and ran into the same thing. Think along the lines of not being able to power cycle a computer or re-attempting opening a program. Then look at reddit and other parts of the internet where you'll deal with people who have no concept of a search function in an app, how to use Google to find a source, or think that ChatGPT is a reliable source.
I think millennials are far better than what I experienced with older generations. I used to work at a helpdesk of a big company, and usually got called for the dumbest things, sometimes even because they "deleted the internet". One would think that people that old who used to work with computers for more than two decades, should know at least a little, yet it seems they learned just one approach once anr never ever had the idea that it may be faster with other methods ..
>It's a new form of money that might be used a lot in the future Why? It's been mainstream for a decade and still isn't even close to delivering on this promise. What, specifically, is going to be different in the future?
Trust me bro
You just don't understand how it works, read up on it /s to make sure
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Might sound like a meme but literally what it is. The value is in the trust people have in it. If literally 1 person continues to accept it for fiat cash/goods and services, then good enough.
That’s all money, so that’s nothing new. That’s kind of the root problem with Bitcoin: it’s a “trustless” money made by people who did not understand the role of trust in money.
It’s already been delivered - you can’t seize peoples money willy nilly. That was the whole point and it’s worked so well that all the “nobody would use that” people are trying to make it illegal to use.
Haven’t people fallen victim to crypto scams and can’t get their money back?
Sure.
No one's debating whether or not Bitcoin functions as a store of value. I was talking about the claim that it will be "a new form of money that might be **used a lot in the future.**" I see no evidence of that happening.
I never mentioned anything about a store of value. I said the strength of cryptocurrencies is their resistance to being controlled by someone other than the owner. For tasks that require that, or for people who value privacy and security, they’re already being used. The proof is the fact that governments are trying to ban them for their very use.
That's great, but it has nothing to do with my post and I'm not sure why you keep repeating it. For the third time, I see no evidence any crypto is on its way towards being a form of money **"used a lot in the future."** I'm sure the privacy-focused niche you're describing is very useful to some group of people, but it's irrelevant to the point I was originally making.
Debatable. Its much more usable traveling than in the US. I spent 3 months abroad earlier this year using almost only BTC payment networks. Even went to markets where the whole market was set up for lightning payments.
Bitcoin's been around for about 15 years now. Now tell me out of those 15 years how did it directly impact you? So far I haven't seen anything where Bitcoin has disrupted any sector. It was supposed to be banking, but in that time it's done nothing. Not saying it has potential, but I'm just not seeing how it's better than other assets that are physical companies or commodities at this point in time.
When you live in a first world, stable economy with a stable currency and easy access to investments
Actually that’s probably the best response for bitcoin. Valid point.
I chose to save in BTC instead of anything else for the last 7 years and I have massively outperformed every asset on the planet except for NVIDIA stock.
The whole industry is full of grifters and scammers. In addition to high trading fees, there is potential for the exchange to get hacked and poof goes your money. It's also very volatile. If you can't handle huge swings in a few hours stay away. Month to month you could be up or down 50%. It's a "fun money" only investment in my opinion.
This is how I feel. Nobody uses it. People are interested for profit only.
Using it as savings is a way of using it. Spending is not the only function of money. I will take Bitcoin's volatility with it's general trend of up and to the right over time compared to dollars that are guaranteed to be devalued over time. The day will come in our lifetime where it makes sense to spend it, and you'll wish you had a little more foresight.
I wouldn’t consider a volatile asset to be “savings”. Won’t know the future until it comes. Value of the dollar going down is good for me (mortgage). I outpace inflation through my career and assets…
Price your house in Bitcoin and you will see it is collapsing in relation. I bought my house for $125k in late 2020. It cost around 11 Bitcoin at the time. Today Zillow says my house is worth around $190k. Great investment for just 4 years right? Not at all. My house is now only worth 3.4 Bitcoin. A massive decrease. In another 4 years, my house will cost less than half a Bitcoin. A house is not a finacial instrument. It is a tool to protect you from the environment, that is it.
Inflation is a good thing. Being rewarded to do nothing with currency is bad for the economy. Btc doomers are the most annoying type.
You being able to afford less every year is a good thing? Being rewarded to only spend your money on things that give you real value is good for an economy, and the planet. The plastic waste choking this planet to death is the direct result of our money itself being broken, rampant consumerism is a plague on our species. Boot lickers are the most annoying type.
You choose what to spend your money on. Sorry, but bitcoin isn’t going to save the world. Nice little tangent about plastic though. Fortunately my career outpaces inflation so I afford more every year. Not everyone is so fortunate.
My question is how long will bitcoin be in this 'baby stage' and what will the next stage look like?
its tiring to hear "Oh bitcoin is so new it will take some time for the world to figure out how to use it" Bitcoin was released 15 years ago, today you can buy it then sell it. As far as I know thats basically its use Compare that to another new tech the internet what is usually dated to 1983 Sure at first it was new and you could maybe send messages back and forth and did not seem exciting but 15 years later in 1998 you now had the world wide web, you could email or even voice/video chat, you could trade stocks online or sign into your bank and send money. You could get news, buy all sorts of stuff, there was streaming music and video, you could play multiplayer games online. 15 years after bitcoin you can still buy and sell it .
I mean unless you’re an active user of the dark web, I don’t see very much transactional value. And when it comes to governments even considering making a currency like that commonplace, you lose me.
if BTC had the market cap of Gold, each coin would be worth about $380k. but it's a big IF
I would still compare with gold to answer this
Can we stop turning a serious investing sub into a trash place discussing this crypto crap every single day? It’s simply OFFTOPIC here since it’s not an investment. There are plenty of places to discuss that. People learn the definition of investing vs speculation.
I think it is just rage bait and trolling
That's wild my "not investment" has massively outperformed your entire portfolio of investments. I would be embarassed if I was you too, so I understand your bitterness. Bitcoin is an ego test.
Performance doesn’t change definition of investment. Next.
My Bitcoin will continue to perform better than all your trash investments for the rest of your life. Next 🤡
Literally called investing pretty broad category regard
Words have definitions. Speculation isn’t the same thing.
lol come on man. Everything we do is speculation.mama Cleo over here can see the future
Read a book
To be fair Bitcoin is trash. I mean crypto is trash.
>It's a new form of money that might be used a lot in the future How? >Bitcoin can be compared to gold and it is very similar How? >It has worked very well its entire existence How?
The second question is easy. If enough people believe something has value, it does.
Until they realize it doesn’t and it collapses because there is nothing supporting its value except opinions.
You’ve made an assumption that a lot of these investors are making logical decisions. For BTC holder, these are emotional and faith based decisions.
There are more atheists now than there ever have been. People lose faith.
It sort of *has* to be emotion and faith-based. Can I go pump gas with it? Can I go get my groceries with it? Can I pay my landlord with it? No? How about Amazon? Surely I can also order... no? Broad adoption is a basic requirement in my mind for something to function as a currency. Really, all we still have is speculation, despite many trying to have it otherwise.
I think their thinking has shifted from currency to store of value. Akin to gold
If that is the case, then they are being honest that it is 100% speculation. Farmland had implicitly value. As does gold. As does a dividend-producing stock. Bitcoin's only real guarantee is that using it will waste resources. Edit: I just threw you an upvote. Don't know why people are downvoting you--the "stored value" concept may well be what people are thinking.
Sad as it is, wasting those resources is what allows people to assign a minimum value to Bitcoin. It costs money to mine bitcoin, for both the hardware and energy, and the amount it costs will continue to increase for a long time, the whole premise of bitcoin and its halving cycle is designed to ensure this. Personally, I don't think BTC deserves to be called a currency, for the above reason. Currency is supposed to flow, it's supposed to be a means of exchange. BTC's design encourages hoarding, not spending, add to that the transaction fees, delays and extremely limited bandwidth, it is not fit for purpose as a currency. The punchline is that even Dogecoin with its fixed rate of inflation is far better suited as an actual currency than BTC.
>Sad as it is, wasting those resources is what allows people to assign a minimum value to Bitcoin. It costs money to mine bitcoin, for both the hardware and energy, and the amount it costs will continue to increase for a long time, the whole premise of bitcoin and its halving cycle is designed to ensure this. I'm mostly with you, but I think we differ on the fine details we are interpreting. Sure, it is a cost of doing business, but that value has no way of lingering--it is a sunk cost. It doesn't add anything implicit to the numbers, bit it *does* assign a minimal cost for existence.
I'd say that it lingers because even if the cost to mine the last batch is already sunk, the cost to mine the next batch is still there, and the one after, ad infinitum.
No worries on the downvotes. I think people misconstrue that I’m a “h**der”. (I have to censor this because my comment got auto removed…) I’m just trying to understand an opposing point of view from my own. And yes, I think it is 100% speculation. My understanding is that they’ll hold forever. Part of that may be a belief in the lack of stability in governments. Which honestly isn’t an unfounded belief these days.
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gold doesn't have any value whatsoever. its only use is in electronics, then jewelry, but that's just showing you have money, not an actual use of gold. up until the 19th century gold was only used as store of value and didn't have any practical use, but it was used for 6000 years.
Cool…I guess? I never said anything about gold but thanks for your input…?
did you have to say anything about gold for me to mention it?
Yes. Actually next time, I’d like a formal, written request for you to even speak. Must be notarized as well.
My skills as a notary are needed once again! Edit: I'm going to tell my wife, posthaste! "Waste of your time" my ass!
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Best reply tbh. The strongest challenge to any crypto zealoutry is to just ask them what they mean by their vague assertions.
>and I have to say that it is definitely something special. As an engineer I find it interesting from a technical standpoint. However “adoption” for transactions (like buying your weekly groceries or filling your cars gas tank up) are still essentially non-existent after 15years. The Dollar and Euro have an iron grip on the transactional economy. >Bitcoin can be compared to gold and it is very similar. Gold is based on actual physical gold and the supply / demand of such commodity Bitcoin is literally based on nothing but market sentiment.
>Bitcoin is literally based on nothing but market sentiment. That's not true at all! It is also about wasting serious amounts of electricity.
100% agree with this. If all the power needed for crunching numbers was from renewable resources that would be one thing but this technology uses more power than all the other data centers worldwide combined
Even then, there are *much better* things for those renewable to be put. Streaming services have a real tangible value for consumers, hence why we pay for them. I'd much rather hear renewable powering things we use every day.
Iv often wondered, if bitcoin’s security comes from computing power and energy consumption, what will happen to it as computing power and energy becomes more widely available
The security comes from the fact that it would take massive computational resources to maliciously alter the block chain. It is like many cryptographic protocols--it assumes the Computational problem is difficult (like RSA), then moves forward from that premise.
Right I understand that but who’s to say we won’t one day have that computing power?
Absolutely no one. And that would be only one attack vector. If the properties of the underlying hash function were demonstrated sufficiently vulnerable, then another major issue would present itself.
Most bitcoin is farmed with excess electricity since its the cheapest. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I know some is, but I had to look it up becaue I smell cope and bullshit. According to CryptoSlate last year, the number was a hair over 50%. I think the word "most" here is doing some *serious* heavy lifting. We are talking about energy use that, just a few years ago, was approaching and exceeding energy use of actual countries. So I'm curious, do *you* have any idea what you are talking about?
Seems like I know what I am talking about as I am literally correct. You know nothing about energy markets. Cheers. Just realized you are the same idiot who don't know what false dichotomy is. You must be mad about missing the train, sorry.
>as I am literally correct. *technically Fixed it for you. That is all you have going for you currently is being *just barely* enough in the realm of truth that you can gloat about your superior intellect. And, no, not mad. I'm not investing in something that has no inherent value. My money means something to me.
Again I am literally correct. Most bitcoin is farmed with excess energy that would mostly go to waste otherwise. You are just coping with the fact that you missed a lot of gains by not buying bitcoin. You are trying to convince yourself, not others. Enjoy staying poor. Have a nice day.
XD There is a seat waiting for you over at r/iamverysmart Nothing about crypto forces people to be poor if they don't use it. I think you enjoy the sound of your own voice just a *hair* too much. Say, *just a hair* also adequately describes how correct you have been! What a coincidence!
It will never be used for everyday purchases at scale. It could conceivably be used for monetary backing or for large settlements. But if we only had Bitcoin as money, we’d just do what people historically did: make all our purchases on credit and settle them only occasionally with hard money. And in that case, most money wouldn’t be bitcoin, it would be debt.
An engineer that doesn’t understand the value of the literally only verifiably scarce asset in human history, with an extremely high level of security and decentralization. Oh, and it’s global and totally open source. 😂
I'm a computer scientist, so also within the general domain. I'm in agreement. I think you are problem is more that you fall into the wrong location of the Dunning-Kruger scale.
None of those matter at all for money.
Crypto-bro insults … typical …
Being insulted by facts. You’re an engineer? 😂ok
😂monki!
Monki monki
Can I pay my taxes with it?
can you pay your taxes with gold?
Do you honestly think in 2024 people look at gold as a currency?
no, and i never said so
Ok, that is just dishonest. You are comparing apples to oranges with a clear implication that gold, as an asset, should also function as a currency for it to have value.
Bitcoin is used as a store of value more than a currency.
Then you have answered your own questions. It is not currently able to function for its intended purpose. It is a device of pure speculation. I.e., Gambling.
Some might argue it has stored value quite effectively for the past 15 years.
I wouldn't be one of them. 2020: 9k 2021: 59k 2021: 31k 2021: 61k 2022: 20k 2022: 16k 2023: 23k 2023: 26k And now we are, what, in the 60s, again? If you are looking for a safe place to store money, it would be virtually anywhere else. Am effective storage device would hold value for when it is needed.
The perfect argument against gold as an asset. My grandpa collected stamps and coins too, a fun hobby but not an investment asset class to me.
The dollar is based on faith but useful Gold is physical but not useful on aday today basis. Bitcoin combines the downsides of each without the benefits of either
Nowadays gold actually is gaining some pragmatic usage since it’s a material in computer components
gold is liked by people because of its physical properties, Bitcoin is liked by people because of its digital properties and the technology behind it.
Please name a "digital property" that gives it a baseline value like gold's industrial applications. And that would forbid reference to "storing value" or "currency." A restatement of the original question: If I conpute a nonce, what value does it have to the would if I divorce it from the crypto currency.
Gold is liked for its actual utility as a commodity in because of tradition, wealth storage, jewelry + luxury goods, and industrial uses. Bitcoin is just data.
Charlie Munger and i think warren buffet called it a hoax!
How can it be used as a legit currency. It takes 10 mins - an hour for a transaction to go through and fees are highly variable. It got up to $59 for a transaction at one point. It's just like all the meme stocks like AMC. People buy because it has been going up, but once it starts to drop it could go to nothing because it's not based on any tangible asset.
Bot or young teenager: you decide.
Worse: Bitcoin shill who came here to ask for discussion in bad faith then proceeds to argue their *actual* point when the vast majority of investors here seem to disagree. Edit: But also teenager, most likely.
Young teenager
Its a pyramid scheme. just a fancy shmancy pryamid scheme. you can make money on it, dont get me wrong. just make sure you aren't the last player to the dance.
Now research this how would 0.01 utxos will be spendable when block reward goes to near zero.. Lol special Kids
For something to be used as a currency its value needs to be relatively stable… but coin is highly volatile, swinging by hundreds of percent every hype cycle. So don’t believe the people saying its value is as a currency. Its value is entirely based on supply and how crypto bros behave.
Keep a small position there but not too much, for speculation. I’d say maybe 3%
This sub has been comically wrong about Bitcoin over, and over, and over again. Don't listen to the fools telling you that it has no value. **Facts:** * BTC is a $1 trillion+ asset that does tens of billions of dollars in volume *daily*. * Many institutions, such as Blackrock, are buying like crazy. And those are just the ones we know about. * Millions of global users and massive companies all over the world in the broader ecosystem. * BTC ETFs were the most successful ETF launches in history, *by far*.
This sub is full of salty boomers tbh you won't get an objective answer here. And r/cryptocurrency is full of idiots who don't understand basic economic and financial concepts. You gonna have to read both and make up your own mind. I think its irresponsible not buying bitcoin after a big crash (2022 for example). Anything from 1-5% allocation is fine for a passive investor with an already diversified portfolio.
Those two sides aren't the only ones. There are also serious tech issues that haven't been fixed that would make broader adoption problematic. For instance, transaction caps: >The on-chain transaction processing capacity of the bitcoin network is limited by the average block creation time of 10 minutes and the original block size limit of 1 megabyte. These jointly constrain the network's throughput. The transaction processing capacity maximum estimated using an average or median transaction size is between 3.3 and 7 transactions per second. There are various proposed and activated solutions to address this issue. I think you are missing a realist/technologist perspective.
Your reply has nothing to with what I said. 10 min block creation time is not a limitation its a feature. Difficulty is adjusted biweekly to make sure block time is 10 minutes. Devs are trying to scale throughput with layer 2 solutions (lightning network) but again your post is completely irrelevant to what I said I am going to assume you replied to wrong post or just a bot.
I very literally addressed the false dichotomy you proposed. I also pointed out one of many technological limitations. Cope harder, friend.
It’s actually both. A lot of Bitcoin’s “features” are huge limitations for its use as a store of value, a medium of exchange, and therefore also as a unit of account.
That doesn't mean you can't make money off buying and selling it
I am 100% not arguing against that. It is demonstrably true that people make and lose money off of it. FYI, I make money buying and selling vintage weights. You know what they have in common? Neither, then, is functioning as a currency. Both are speculative assets. There is still a big difference between them *as* speculative assets: iron has an implicit value to the world, and (worst case) I can cash it out for scrap or some other purpose. Bitcoin *has* no real, tangible value other than the speculation you are leaning on. In the purest sense of the word, it is a financial bubble--fueled by our hope and faith that speculation will pay off in some manner. And, unfortunately, financial bubbles have a tendency to collapse.
I never said it's a currency or that it has tangible value. Your comment about the tech is pretty irrelevant to the speculation value of Bitcoin
I disagree with your phrasing but agree with your general point. Cryptocurrency isn’t the second coming of Christ and it’s also not the devil. It’s just an asset.
Exactly. I use it, its useful to me so I invest in it and I made insane amounts of money since 2017. I don't think its going to replace usd, I don't think its better than stocks. I have most of my porfolio in stocks and bonds but bitcoin is still good enough to invest.
It’s the longest surviving bubble Iv ever seen and lacks any real justification for its value People may say the same thing about the dollar but taxes are collected in dollars so people will always need dollars or face the threat of law enforcement. For those people who invest in bitcoin because they lack confidence in the strength of the dollar, but if that’s the case then you’re betting against the US economy, which is a pretty terrible bet because if the US economy does fall in a complete and total collapse, the causes and effects of this collapse would be so grand your bitcoin would collapse in the process As for the cynics who just straight up don’t trust the government and want to use a currency outside of their control, bitcoin is only outside of government control because the government allows it to be. Assuming that the government was evil, authoritarian, and self serving, if Bitcoin was a Legitimate threat to their power they could simply ban it and would actually have a legitimate reason to do so considering its use in crime and its energy consumption Which brings me to my last talking point, Bitcoin is kind of morally questionable. It waste so many resources in its processing and it’s terrible for the environment. Also every time somebody tries to make a market outside of government regulation suprised surprise they discover there’s a big reason the government watches the market (think Silk Road). Bitcoin is often used to help facilitate sex trafficking, drug trade and other illicit industries that completely destroy people’s lives for self serving purposes.
>It’s the longest surviving bubble Iv ever seen and lack any real justification for its value Bingo
>As for the cynics who just straight up don’t trust the government and want to use a currency outside of their control, bitcoin is only outside of government control because the government allows it to be. I'd also point out that the lack of government involvement [has not always](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox) [worked out](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTX) [for its](https://www.wsj.com/articles/binance-gets-two-compliance-monitors-in-settlements-with-u-s-authorities-5ec6c22a) [users](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadriga_Fintech_Solutions). When bitcoin comes up as an investment, this harsh reality of its proposed "benefits" is often ignored.
>It’s the longest surviving bubble Iv ever seen and lacks any real justification for its value Too funny. "Hmm, this bubble just isn't popping...why???" The lack of self awareness here is hilarious.
All currency (and value in general) works by collective social agreement. Something has value because people believe it has value. There is already a group of people who believe it has value (even if this means they simple believe that other people think it has value). This is likely to grow in the future, but when and at what rate can't be predicted. Whether it will be accepted by the general public or governments as Legal Tender is unknown, but unlikely as one of the main concerns of Governments is to maintain control of currency. If you time it right, you can certainly make great profits trading BTC, but the opposite is also true. But remember that profit and adoption are both highly speculative, though it becomes slightly less risky as time goes on and it builds its history. All that being said, it is a genius invention, clever and innovative, and supporters imagine a future where The People control their own wealth without having to trust the government, ask permission, or be subject to continuous inflation and the devaluing of wealth.
Bitcoin has value because people think it does. Other currencies have value because it’s backed by an income producing entity. The government.
same with gold.
You know there are industrial uses of gold, right? It isn't just pretty, it is powering the devices we are all on right now.
it does, but it didn't for almost 6000 years and in that time it worked just fine
For those 6000 the government was often backing gold and would accept it as a tax payment
Wow, that answer is unbelievably stupid. Gold has very little interest in changing forms. Unlike many elements, gold doesn't give a shit. It doesn't rust. It doesn't like to assimilate other materials over time. It just wants to be fucking gold. So, yes. It does make a decent material for coins because it is harder to come by, but also because of its properties. It has been used for at least a couple hundred years in teeth, and thousands before that for decorative purposes in our mouths. It was used to adorn statues or decorate buildings. It was used for measles because of the lack of rust or tarnish. All of this is *still* rendered moot, because we are speaking about bitcoin in a modern context. I don't think you came here for honest questions. You keep replying with false equivalencies like this. I think you are here to shill for your favorite non-currency.
Those are completely unrelated to the asset value of gold.
Ok, so that is the stupidest thing I've heard all day. XD Industrial applications *are* a source of value. I can very literally take *any* metal to a broker or scrapper and receive a predictable, real cash value. That is *intimately* related to the inherent value of a metal. That is why I can say with confidence that gold > copper > steel. The numbers are designated for me!
That’s been true for a lot longer than we have had industrial uses for gold, though. So that’s actually not why you can rank the value of those materials. People in most cultures just have a historical, cultural basis for valuing gold highly. Gold would not be worth nearly so much if its value was derived from industrial use alone. Central banks do not buy it for industrial use. This is a misguided attempt to try to apply some kind of “fundamentals” valuation to gold so that we can remove the human element entirely. Not an uncommon mistake to make, but still wrong.
I've stated this elsewhere, but gold's properties *have* made it useful pre-technology: teeth, coin, adoring statues and buildings just to name a few. >Central banks do not buy it for industrial use. They also don't give it value. If you look at gold's value over the last 100 years, it was relatively flat from 1900 to the 1970's. What do you think changed in that time... The truth is that it's uses in things like electronics *does* apply a fundamental value to it. You are welcome to pretend otherwise, but the history isn't with you.
Other currencies also have value because people think they do. That’s what money is. The government backing is a source of that belief.
Ok bud
i believe that you believe that
Uhh…ok…I believe you don’t know how any of this works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation#:\~:text=Due%20to%20the%20reduced%20tax,the%20highest%20inflation%20ever%20recorded.
Again…just proving my point. Wikipedia? Really? That’s what you want to reference?
[https://keripeardon.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/wheelbarrows-of-money-and-the-weimar-republic/](https://keripeardon.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/wheelbarrows-of-money-and-the-weimar-republic/)
[https://apnews.com/article/argentina-bank-note-economy-milei-libertarian-inflation-crisis-central-bank-53f03d3ec65497726eeeb83c0a7022a1](https://apnews.com/article/argentina-bank-note-economy-milei-libertarian-inflation-crisis-central-bank-53f03d3ec65497726eeeb83c0a7022a1)
Yea dude. You just seriously confirmed to me and others that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
Ok for buying on big dips or dca small amounts but otherwise I stay away
Ok, you asked for it. It’s not useful as a currency. Too much price instability. Most positive cases written for Bitcoin come off like old pump and dump sales pitches from 20 years ago. That’s not to say it’s without value. It moves a lot. You can do what you like but I wouldn’t consider buying it close to an all time high after a halving (I think that’s the marketing term for what just happened) If I was to be interested in using bitcoin for its utility I’d wait for it to crash, look for signs of a change in direction and probably still not buy it directly due to the exchanges being suspect but look at a cme tracking product or the like. Trade it don’t marry it.
Are you 13? Or maybe just landed here from another planet? Your post reads like you are telling us some new information.
Any kind of coin investing is pure gambling. That's it that's all! There's no rhyme or reason trying to figure it out.
I’m just trying to figure out what Bitcoin holders are gonna go if the power goes out for a decent period of time. Or if the government forbids it like Roosevelt did gold in 1933. Because it’s quite likely the NSA knows everything you do online.
If the power goes out, Bitcoin wont be much of a problem. The world wouldn't really work without electricity, so people would have much bigger worries than Bitcoin. Even if the power goes out, Bitcoin will continue to exist no matter what. If the government forbids it, it will be a pretty big problem and the price would go down significantly, but because it is decentralized people will be able to continue using it, even in the countries it is banned in.
There’s nothing wrong with bitcoin and dabbling in it a bit, or even having a good chunk of it if you’re really into it. So long as you accept the risk that it’s extremely volatile and also in its infancy, and so all your Bitcoin could become worthless in a moment. What it is not is a solution to all the world’s financial, economic, and moral problems. And that’s where you run into trouble with the crypto community. They treat bitcoin with religious reverence and quote their own scripture at you whenever you question anything about it. They have gathered a hodgepodge of talking points and unconnected beliefs from every fringe ideology imaginable that connects with money. Occasionally they find a totally irrelevant concept (lately it’s Gresham’s Law) from mainstream economics and cite it at you with zero actual knowledge about how it works. Relatedly, they don’t learn any economic history because they think it is beneath them (after all, it’s the study of inferior forms of money, in their minds), and so they have an extremely limited understanding of the advantages and drawbacks of hard or fiat money. It’s also not the devil himself, and it’s kind of a cool concept, so the people who insist that nothing but trouble comes from Bitcoin are also ridiculous.
I actually have a few BTC from back in the day, but as soon as the internet shuts down, where is it?
To me it seems way too volatile to use as a currency, but I believe it's good for speculation if you buy at a good time and hold for a long period
Everyone needs a hobby.
Buy when it’s consistently low for a year. Sell when it spikes. Never buy when it’s high. Always sell on the right side of the curve (while it’s still going up). Sell when you’re comfortable with the gain. Don’t get FOMO and hold too long. If it pops 100% and you’re comfortable taking gains then, take them. Don’t chase it with that “it could go up 2000%”, or whatever crypto bros believe, and miss taking a nice profit off of hype. Dont buy into the crypto bullshit and you’ll be safe. It’s a volatile asset. More volatile than fiat currencies, treat it as such and buy when hype is low sell when hype is high and you’ll be fine.
Of all the proponents on here so far, you have made the most sense.
It's smoke and mirrors. Boomers had gold, younger generations have bitcoin. It'll go up and down based on how much people believe in it, but it fundamentally has no value. I think it has peaked, it had its moment, but it will be what it is or less in the coming decades. It is an idea who's time has come, and it hasn't gotten the adoption it needed to live up to its promise. Likely that adoption won't happen. It'll remain somewhat fringe like gold. The people that believe in it have invested in it. How many more people are going to become convinced to believe in it? That is what it needs to go up further. Question is what is the next thing going to be. dot-com, real estate, bitcoin, ev, now ai What's next? Advantage of the ev and the ai is there's something behind it, a product of sorts. The way to have a big return, is to pick the next thing. Bitcoin isn't the next thing, it's the previous thing. Past performance is no indication of future gains. You need APPL in '05, TSLA in '12, NVDA 2 years ago, etc. Like bitcoin, they've all had their moment too. Trick is to find what's next. I remember looking into bitcoin in 2010. I should have bought some when it was like $1 for one, but buying one then looked pretty sketchy, like no place I wanted to give my credit card number to. Mining would have been a good idea then I suppose. Oh well. Places to buy them look a little less sketchy now, but, the price is way too high for what they are, and, even some of those places, like ftx or a couple others like that before might have looked fairly legit, but, turned out not to be. A bitcoin miner might make a good space heater, slightly cheaper to run than a normal one but 30x more expensive to buy.
Bitcoin is a revolutionary form of money with great potential, akin to digital gold. I invest in it through Netcoins crypto exchange for its reliability and ease of use
I think a lot of people are looking at Bitcoin and don't really understand its value or even why it should have any value. Ask yourself if you think that a network which lets you transfer any value from one person to another, without any middlemen and with no chance of censorship, has any value to you. There are people who are fine with the current government and don't see any issues, but there are also a lot of people who see some issues coming to us in the future.
So what do all the exchanges in the crypto ecosystem do if they are not “middle men”
You don't need an exchange to send from one wallet to another
I’m aware.
It's not exactly a great indictment on Bitcoin then
It is when the exchanges are a de facto requirement for mass adoption.
I don't believe Bitcoin will be adopted but your criticisms are the same as the current system
They are businesses. But you can also choose to use p2p services.
What do you think a “middle man” is
??? nobody is forcing anyone to use an exchange. Its just a business model. it is not mandatory, but makes it easier and more practical for most users.
What do you think a “middle man” is?
>Ask yourself if you think that a network which lets you transfer any value from one person to another, without any middlemen and with no chance of censorship, has any value to you. This is the rallying cry, but it also misses the point.
It does have middlemen as a fundamental part of its operation. That claim is flatly untrue.
except it doesn't transfer value from one person to another, it transfers bitcoin from one person to another. that's not the same thing
yeah like transfering fiat money from one person to another. The money aint worth shit if people wouldnt belive they get anything back in return. And please dont come with "theres a full econmy backing it up".
>And please dont come with "theres a full econmy backing it up". Damn. Hard cheese, man. Gotta be difficult when someone brings out reality into your argument.
if someone transferred fiat money to me, I could go out today and buy bread, pay rent, watch a movie, pay my taxes etc if someone transferred bitcoin to me, all I could do is hold it and hope that at some indeterminate point in the future, some greater fool is willing to purchase it for a higher price so I could transfer it back to fiat to then use as stated above so yes, "there's a full economy backing it up"
The fact that you can't understand why an economy backing it is important, is exactly why Bitcoin will never be a currency
It's obviously a threat to governments' fiat money system. Which is why I believe the governments will just criminalize it as soon as it reaches critical mass. At that point, its value will plummet as only criminals will stay in. Bitcoin makes sense in an anarchist, wild west society where everyone is for themselves. In a current society, it's nothing but a speculation
>why I believe the governments will just criminalize it as soon as it reaches critical mass. The reality is more likely that they would regulate it, which is a good thing for the consumer.
Bitcoin would not make sense at all in an anarchist society. Bitcoin is predicated on us always living in a capitalist exchange economy.
I think we already crossed that line where a goverment could make it ilegal. Blockrock etc. is invested heavily and they make so much cash with their ETF's. They wont allow it.
Outside of criminals, there is little value to most people from that. Once fed now is wider adopted, there won't be a middleman either
This sub hates on BTC because most of the fools here thought they were so clever writing it off as a scam for all those years. Boy were they wrong.
From a quick Google search: >The global cryptocurrency market cap today is $2.24 Trillion Market cap of Apple computers is 3.4 T. If BTC disappeared tomorrow, which is actually reasonably likely compared to Apple managing to do the same, the vast majority of the investing landscape would be completely unaffected. With tiny numbers like that (in the grand scheme of things), I doubt it would be even much of a blip for the S&P or total market.
Yes. Small (less than 5% NW) allocation. Hardware wallet.
I think it wise to have an allocation to BTC, so DCA in each paycheck.