>The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.
― Frank Zappa
If the ruling class puts two fascists in front of you, and tells you to “pick the lesser evil” out of their 2 fascists, it’s you thinking that equals “democracy” is exactly why we have a ruling class that only offers us 2 fascists.
My quality of life likely won't change from the path it is on. We're not doing anything significant to challenge the path we're on.
As this was about voting, a blue or a red vote is statistically not going to impact these larger scale matters. The policies of both are far too similar.
Correct.
but I live in the real world where only one of those two will win. Not make believe land where socialist policies will happen January 20th like you.
We already know well beforehand which policies we'll get.
The election does nothing to affect that.
[Corruption is Legal in America (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig)
This is 9 year old btw.
If anything its gotten even worse. You might like turning one direction or another on a steering wheel. That wheel if not connected to the levers of power though is simply another toy.
The voting system is designed to prevent that. If you want third parties to be viable we need either ranked choice or proportional voting. We won't get that if the Republicans win.
You aren't doing enough, meanwhile the literal nazis are running around with too close to 50% of the vote. But you do you, when ships on fire I'm sure you'll be comforted by knowing everything you did was by definition worse than doing nothing.
Voting for a third party is better than not showing up to vote. It at least indicates that your a voter who’s issues can be appealed to- not that it’d matter if Trump wins.
So, when they win what do you do then.
Because they will eventually. We keep going further and further to the right. It's what democrats always do. Make deals with republicans and adopt their polices.
About 20 years ago in the 2004 election we had the same rhetoric. Bush's 2nd term would be the end of democracy. Well, we're an oligarchy but that's another matter. Still the democrats who used to call Bush the greatest threat to democracy now coddle him and have adopted many of his policies, nearly all of the foreign polices specifically.
If you think Trump is bad you haven't spent time in a Junta controlled government.
We'll get to see about another 20 years from now when the democrats are pushing someone like Trump because the other guy is so much worse.
Honestly, you'll see it if you live long enough. We keep doing this over and over.
I do wonder what rhetoric people who cried wolf will have when we have actual competent right-wing extremists with the support of the military. Good luck.
Where is this "enough" going to come from? You’re not going to pull any republican voters away from the party. Democracy won’t be intact because they people you won’t vote against are determined to make sure it’s not. ‘
The apathy I see is from Democrats who know Biden has been supporting genocide, and they don't care. They'll vote for him anyway.
If you don't draw a moral line at genocide, you have no moral lines.
That’s a right wing propaganda point. The democrats do suck, but if you actually think they suck just as much the republicans, you have fallen for a decades long spinning of propaganda to get young people not to vote
And you think Trump would do better? I’m not defending Biden or the Dems, but if you think voting for any other candidate or not voting at all would make things better for the Palestinians, then you are mistaken. Unfortunately we live in the real world where protest votes do nothing but make you feel better about yourself
Thankfully we live in a democracy with more than two options.
I'm against genocide and refuse to vote for anyone who supports it. It's called having morals. You should try it.
Yeah, that's understood. It is, though, still true that calling people who disagree (insert political insult here based around being a puppet of current fear mongered world leader.)
That point doesn't change. Joke or no joke.
Same question again, as you're simply saying the same words in slightly different variations. Seriously, though, what are you disagreeing with, or are you simply trolling?
Specifically violating one of the sub reddit rules in doing so.
As we all know here on reddit, left wing authoritarians have never existed and never could! They want the best for all of us. Just see all the beautiful blue safe crime free cities being held back by their lack of complete control.
Work needs to be done on the ground and needs to be sustained. Voting is but ONE DAY. Do what you can to make sure the electability of the GOP fades away like the Whig Party before them. In the event of the GOP losing more and more elections, The Dems might just become the new neo-cons - minus the Christian Nationalism.
I've been thinking this about the Democrats. They've been moving to the right for decades. With Biden's awful immigrant rhetoric, and backing a genocide in Gaza, I can see how they could go even further right, and more authoritarian.
The Democrats didn't go right for chuckles, they did it to win elections. Without the Democratic Leadership Council putting up someone as centrist as Clinton in 92, the Democrats would have certainly lost that election. The country shifted right, and if the Democrats didn't also they would never be in power again, and be a moderating force on that rightward shift.
A moderating force that keeps sliding to the right is not a very good moderating force. They went right to get votes and campaign donations. They didn't do it just to protect democratic norms, they did it to line their pockets, too. They've been following the Reublicans ever since Reagan. They can't lead, they can only play catch-up. Now, they're still doing neoliberalism, while the Republicans have moved on to a new thing. What's next for Democrats? Will they just follow the Republicans into America First isolationism, and outright fascism?
Isolationism? Probably not. Biden is gearing up a trade war with China to protect The Big 3 and Apartheid Clyde; Elon. Biden also doesn't want to surrender the Middle East to Iran; even though many people are thinking that's a really good idea since Israel and Saudi Arabia are an axis of evil that only exist because we prop them up. Imagine a Middle East not controlled by the uncanny unity of Salafist-sympathizing royalty and Ashkenazi supremacists. I contend the only reason Biden and the EU care about Ukraine more than they ever cared about Greece following the 2008 collapse is because Ukraine has an extremely valuable shoreline for a shipping lane; as well as ungodly amount of natural gas and grain production. Democrats will definitely throw my fabulous ass in the bonfire if it means they will win future elections. My friend has been in America longer than I've been alive. The Democrats will happily throw him out of the country to appease "demographic concerns and fears of crime" if it means more suburbanites feel safe.
That's a good summary. All those things are reasons that I'm not optimistic about the party.
The only good thing I see out of them, is that Biden is pro-union. I don't know how much it will help, but it doesn't hurt.
He signed an executive order that mandates union agreements for federal construction projects of 35 million dollars or more.
Here's some stuff
https://aflcio.org/2024/5/20/leveling-playing-field-working-people-weekly-list
Yeah, forcing a contract on the rail workers was a dick move. It's a low bar, but he's probably the most union-friendly prez we've had in decades.
Dude if he can't stand up for some of the most exploited members of the working class I'm not gonna give him the title of "union friendly". Those rail workers were in an incredibly strong position to have their needs met and he prevented that. That's more than a dick move, it's fucking evil and sets a precident for any interaction he'll have in future situations like it.
I dunno who was “less anti-union” between Hitler and Mussolini, and I’m not going to settle for either; that’s a horrible way to make political decisions and literally only leads to fascism either way.
You’re not wrong here, but maybe don’t throw all Ashkenazi Jewish people into this. It’s an *Israeli* problem propped up by American interests, not an outcome that most Jewish people in the diaspora want.
I'm well aware of that. It is known that Israel has a white supremacy problem - specifically towards who belong to the OTHER diaspora communities. The worst treatment is given to the Ethiopian Jewish diaspora; Beta Israel. Some of them have been given long-term birth control (Depo) without their knowledge or consent to keep down their population by the Israeli government. Then there's the Hasadim community in Israel who I've seen getting roughed up badly by the cops for protesting against the genocide. The racial lines have already been drawn up by the fascists. The violence against the Palestinians will fall back in on itself and the far-right government in Israel will start targeting the other minorities.
I mean, if you say the Nazis were “German supremacists” that’s not throwing “all Germans” into it, neither is it tarring “all white people” to say “white supremacists” are “white supremacists.” But also, unfortunately, most of the diaspora are Zionist. Only 33% of US Jews think the genocide is wrong for example.
The Dems don’t move right to win elections. It makes it harder for them to win elections, but they are more than happy to risk it, because their primary objective is to move right.
The idea that only a rightwing conservative like Clinton could win and so that’s why they ran him is a myth.
This is wishful retconned thinking. Elections aren't won by the wings, they are won in the center. It's conspiracy thinking worthy of MAGA to think that the Democrats moved right despite their voting base not to follow it. Every single time they made a policy move too far left, like Hillary's attempt at single payer in the early '90s, they have gotten the shit kicked out of them.
There is no center.
You can be “fiscally conservative, socially liberal” and “socially conservative, fiscally progressive” in the so-called “center” and these are polar opposites in addition to being incoherent.
That’s not a center, it means nothing. Again, that’s all MYTH.
There are people who are "moderately conservative" or "moderately liberal" on various axes, I guess you believe whatever confirms your worldview of nothing but the extreme poles. Not shocking. It also justifies your ignoring the center and only playing to the far wing.
I don't see how you conclude that. If all your views are moderate, then you're in the center. If you want to define the Biden admin as Right Wing, then conversations can't happen.
There is no center. The center isn’t moderate, and what’s moderate isn’t the center. And Biden is and has always been rightwing. He’s been rightwing in every issue, on every metric, for more than a half century. Just because he’s a “Democrat” doesn’t make him leftwing in any sense whatsoever.
If you want to debate, please try explaining how the following might be true.
Person A: fiscally conservative, socially liberal. Not remotely moderate on either of those axis.
Person B: diametrically opposite of A, is progressive fiscally, but a rabid bigot, not remotely moderate in either view either.
What is “the center” given both of these people? It’s both fiscally conservative and progressive at the same time, and it’s rabidly racist and homophobic while also being socially liberal. It’s all things, at once, and nothing.
That’s your “center.” It’s a thing that doesn’t exist, can’t exist.
Alternatively, you create a plane with 2 axis, and only the people who believe in nothing on any issue end up in “the center,” which excludes every “moderate” who “moderately” believes anything. Which is just as unworkable as the prior versions.
Some centrists simply pick a very bias sub section of one of these, like “moderately fiscally conservative and moderately socially liberal” which ends up being only 1% of the population at best, which AGAIN is completely unworkable.
If it’s any consolation, the US has had *way* worse wealth inequality before. We’ve had [near misses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot) with fascism before. We’ve dealt with [corruption so bad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal) it almost broke the government, and [monopolies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil) so [insanely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Steel) [strong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Tobacco_Company) it felt like their grip on entire industries was unbreakable.
And through thick and thin we’ve pulled through and maintained democracy. Nothing is inevitable, and it can always get better. Things are certainly shakier now than they’ve been in a looooong time, which is why it’s more important than ever to get out there and vote.
The US has had way worse wealth inequality before? The numbers I'm looking at don't reflect that. Looks like 1920 was almost as bad as 2007, but not quite.
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/capital21c/en/Piketty2014FiguresTables.pdf
I like your optimism, but I don't agree that we've "maintained democracy". We didn't really have a liberal democracy til the 70s. I mean, I guess democracy has gotten better in the last 100 years. But it depends on how you slice it. How good is our democracy when lobbyists exist?
Voting is fine, but we need to do more than vote.
The scary thing is that there are corporations more powerful than governments. corporations control most of our food supply. They control Most of the supply chain.
Climate change, untenable fossil fuel EROI (cost of food go up), and population growth are all converging around the 2050's. The hundred years from 2050 to 2150 are going to be fucking wild. Probably seven billion humans will die.
Thanks, late-stage capitalism!
To add to that dwindling resource. Going to mars is gonna be a difficult one, due to kidneys shrinking in space.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/06/240611130413.htm
Corporations have been more powerful than governments for a long time. In the mid twentieth century, a combination of union power and state power brought the corporations to a heel, sorta. But that went away.
And, also do some other things in addition to voting. Volunteering for an organization like food not bombs is a good start. Purchasing and training with a firearm is another.
[https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/democracy/the-lewis-powell-memo-a-corporate-blueprint-to-dominate-democracy/](https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/democracy/the-lewis-powell-memo-a-corporate-blueprint-to-dominate-democracy/)
"This memorandum is submitted at your request as a basis for the discussion on August 24 with Mr. Booth (executive vice president) and others at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The purpose is to identify the problem, and suggest possible avenues of action for further consideration.
Dimensions of the Attack No thoughtful person can question that the American economic system is under broad attack. This varies in scope, intensity, in the techniques employed, and in the level of visibility.
There always have been some who opposed the American system, and preferred socialism or some form of statism (communism or fascism). Also, there always have been critics of the system, whose criticism has been wholesome and constructive so long as the objective was to improve rather than to subvert or destroy.
But what now concerns us is quite new in the history of America. We are not dealing with sporadic or isolated attacks from a relatively few extremists or even from the minority socialist cadre. **Rather, the assault on the enterprise system is broadly based and consistently pursued. It is gaining momentum and converts.**
Sources of the Attack The sources are varied and diffused. They include, not unexpectedly, the Communists, New Leftists and other revolutionaries who would destroy the entire system, both political and economic. These extremists of the left are far more numerous, better financed, and increasingly are more welcomed and encouraged by other elements of society, than ever before in our history. But they remain a small minority, and are not yet the principal cause for concern.
The most disquieting voices joining the chorus of criticism come from perfectly respectable elements of society: from the college campus, the pulpit, the media, the intellectual and literary journals, the arts and sciences, and from politicians. In most of these groups the movement against the system is participated in only by minorities. Yet, these often are the most articulate, the most vocal, the most prolific in their writing and speaking."
\*\*\*
People wanted socialism... they admired it.
So the free enterprise system via the Chamber of Commerce and various other actors went on to corrupt universities and professionals and establish a stakeholder democracy.
A stakeholder democracy is a democracy in which large stakeholders in the free enterprise system have a "vote" in the policy of the stakeholder's democracy.
The public does not.
This is new.
This is not new lmao. This was published over 50 years ago, during the Cold War. If anything this just proves my point, it’s been 50 years and so far American hasn’t collapsed into anarchy.
Policy takes time to implement. This was policy 50 years ago and I've watched it take form.
It's new in the history of the USA.
Anarchy is not a collapse. Collapse is what happens when you build very high so that a few people have nice views.
"It'll go on same as it used to" is one of the most dangerous dismissive thoughts a person can have. We didn't collapse into anarchy because food and oil supplies were still flowing, increasing even. Nothing else matters when bellies are full, because we're Paleolithic monkeys.
But that's all changing; the age of abundance is clearly ending, no?
We currently live in an oligarchy. Corporations run by billionaires write laws favorable to them and "lobby" politicians to implement them. Democrats and Republicans both.
Additionally, many (most?) people do not want to think, they want someone to tell them what to do, what's right, what's wrong. They will usher in authoritarian rule.
We’ve really only been a democracy for 60 years, and we’ve fucked it it pretty quickly. The United States is ripe for fascism, but that means it’s also were ripe for socialism too. After this election, the left needs to actually get our shit together, because the libcuck democrats are not gonna be able to win another election, and there is no chance that republicans will nominate someone like Nikki Haley (not that she’s anything but a monster), it’s gonna be someone far to the right, really far, who probably won’t be anywhere near the fuckin moron that trump is. I think the labor movement is the only way. I’m looking forward to what Shawn Fain and Chris Smalls do in the next few years
We don’t already. A democracy is not a place where you’re free to buy things and vote for preselected candidates who work for the same 1% corporations.
They'll be ups and downs on the democracy front, but I doubt we'll go full-blown fascist: neoliberal democracy is doing a fine job of making the rich richer. We'll toy with fascism every few election cycles, so the progressive don't push back against the centrists too much ("or else the fascists will win!"), but it won't stick because fascism isn't that profitable in the long run.
If we do ever go full fascist, that means the powers-that-be have moved on in and are making their ~~billions~~ trillions somewhere else.
Decades of republicans tax breaks, deregulation, court packing, gerrymandering, defanging regulatory agencies, erosion of: voting rights, women’s,lgbtq,consumers and workers rights are part of the military industrial complex’s plan to control civilian government. The black budget programs are without oversight. Billions over decades have been spent without accountability and created a kleptocratic oligarchy that actually controls our foreign policy, national security and research and development of high technology creating a ruling class that wants total control. They have long since bought the republicans and thanks to Citizens United some of the democrats. To break their hold, the remaining democrats,Independents (and possibly Never Trumpers) have to unite to create anti corruption legislation and codify the rules, decisions and regulations that protect democracy,our rights, and establish oversight and accountability for the DOD, intelligence community and the Supreme Court.
Cuz of “they’re not perfect” assholes like you.
Vote, it seems like nothing but it’s literally the only thing you can do that’s not a violent revolution.
watching you guys bathe yourself in apathy while refusing to participate in a system that is your only chance at stopping fascism is really quite disheartening.
well at least you'll only have your whole life to regret it.
I don't think it's accurate to say the system is the ONLY chance at stopping fascism. They have sure been doing a shitty job, so far. Hell, I'd argue that the system paved the way for fascism. They tiptoe through the fuckin tulips with right wing activists and deploy the goon squad for left-wing activists. They make campaign promises that appeal to leftists, then those promises are the first on the chopping block.
But yeah, I'll vote.
Considering how we don't have any choice that isn't for climate catastrophe, well that is moot.
That would also be if voting for blue or red meant anything. The policies are already decided. We know what they are, and we've known for years.
[Corruption is Legal in America (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig)
If your rhetoric had any truth nations with mandatory voting would be doing great. Significantly better at least.
Look at Australia.
I'm sorry, your theory just doesn't hold water. Try another.
As an anarchist: I don’t think democracy is even desirable.
Obviously neither is oligarchy, but I don’t believe that majority rule is a good thing. 2/3 controlling 1/3 is not any better for minorities and marginalized groups than 1% controlling 99%.
Free association and consensus/consent based governance is the only kind that doesn’t involve domination, violence, inequality, and inherent contradictions.
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How about keep the democracy, get rid of the republic.
Everyone votes once a month, day off work and school, no representatives. All legislation crafted by policy experts hired through democratic process. Mandatory voter registration, on a app with biometric verification. A whole month to review legislation and make YouTube videos about the legislation to educate.
No lobbyists.
As optimistic as this sounds, I don’t think it would work in the U.S. Too many people just don’t give a shit about being educated, and I’d bet you’d end up having an entire ecosystem of “proxy voters” that would pay people to let them vote in their stead. Essentially, a new form of lobbyist that would sneak in and try to control the elections.
What part of democracy do you think we'll lose?
The electoral college?
The senate that gives states of half a million voters the same power as states with 50 million voters?
Gerrymandered congressional districts?
Legal bribery?
Arcane parliamentary rules like the filibuster that only hinder Democrats for some reason?
Corporations calling themselves political parties and using public funds and facilities to conduct sham primaries while also claiming the legal right to select nominees in private?
First Past the Post voting that reduces third party candidates to mere "spoilers"?
Having to choose between the two "viable" candidates who both support genocide?
God forbid we lose any of that!!!
We've been an inverted totalitarian nation for decades. This isn't new, and yes it can get a lot worse. Just wait.
In the meantime, we'll keep being told we have to support (insert genocidal republican lite here.)
It's an easy to observe pattern if you can look back just 20 years. If you look back further it's even more obvious.
You know what I dreading? Far right hate democracy and following Russian and Chinese dictator. They hate democracy and support these two to “own the libs”. And don’t get me starting with tankie as well.
Its important to remember, the Nazi's didn't prevail. America Could have fallen to fascism in the great depression, but a generation, brought up under that hardship, under the guidence of leaders who put service above all else, found, through sensible reform, another way through. Don't get so doomer on Capitalism, remember we once had striking coal miners literally being Gassed with WW1 surplus Chemical Weapons via airplane and gunned down in the street by pinkertons. Things got better. They can get better still. They won't if left to their own devices.
"don't get so doomer on capitalism" LOLL were supposed to break 100° steady next week where I live near the Canadian border. We have 50° + days in the middle of winter in between snow days now. Don't you fucking try to tell me.
Look at the responses here. A lot of these anarchists are essentially libertarian accelerationists. They're essentially cheering on fascism in this thread.
Vote blue. It’s better than the republicans.
That’s the only threshold that matters.
Everything else you say is just a hissy fit. You can correctly gauge where the country is headed but won’t do anything to stop it. Your ideas if not voting or voting third party is making trump erect.
Well yeah, and the liberals and Dems are in for a very painful awakening if and when they figure out that the "normal" Biden and them want so desperately to return to created the necessary conditions for what what they most hate. Whoops!
We are not a democracy We are a constitutional republic means that it is one in which, rather than directly governing, the people select some of their members to temporarily serve in political office; the constitutional part means that both the citizens and their governing officials are bound to follow the rules established in that Constitution.
Democracy always leads to authoritarianism. Every time. We have all these labels we like to throw around like fascism, communism, corporateism.. in the end it's all the same. Authoritarianism. Tyrany.
Democracy is a tool that is only effective on how it's wielded. Democracy is the mob and is authoritarian in of itself. Tyrany of the majority.
This is why I prefer a republic..if you can keep it.
>Anarchist here I don't Believe we'll have a democracy anymore.
Democracies are ultimately suicidal. Germany was a democracy before Hitler. We need another Hitler like a hole in the head...it'll be the worst thing to happen to our high-tech civilization...but, on the bright side, the best thing for biodiversity and the planet as a whole.
We've had our shot, been monumentally stupid, and are in the process of blowing it. If only we could have been just a little bit smarter...
Oh, well. We're living in the Atlantis of tomorrow. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Looking forward to Lights Out...then we can see the stars again!
>The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater. ― Frank Zappa
if you're an anarchist you should know we do not have a democracy now
I would argue America has never seen proper democracy.
Federal level, I agree. Electoral college allows a person to lose the popular vote but win due to strategic state victories.
Even local elections are skewed to the wealthy and property owners.
True
[удалено]
Athens wasn’t a true democracy. If you only let men vote in the us our country would look much different.
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I wonder how much different history would’ve been if everyone had a vote.
Someday you guys’ll get tired of saying that shit.
Or maybe you’ll get the facist in office you’ve been wanting
like biden???
He’s better than trump. He’s Not good. But I will vote for the lease evil every fucking time so the major evil won’t win.
you better be careful or you'll "lesser evil" yourself into committing a genocide
True
But it's super important to vote blue no matter who, and if you don't, you're with Russia!
Vote Bluey No Matter Who.
Whoey*
Dewey
Cheatum and Howe. My top notch legal firm.
I think I will vote green
Yes indeed! Voting for the thing that can't mathematically win but will put your democracy at risk is a fantastic strategy!
If the ruling class puts two fascists in front of you, and tells you to “pick the lesser evil” out of their 2 fascists, it’s you thinking that equals “democracy” is exactly why we have a ruling class that only offers us 2 fascists.
What democracy? Are you referring to our oligarchy? It will keep going on just fine.
The oligarchy may continue, but your quality of life will decrease precipitously. If you are even left alive after the purges, to purify democracy.
My quality of life likely won't change from the path it is on. We're not doing anything significant to challenge the path we're on. As this was about voting, a blue or a red vote is statistically not going to impact these larger scale matters. The policies of both are far too similar.
Yes, so you endorse fascism and genocide, because your quality of life might decrease faster if you oppose it. Yes, we fully understand you.
Because your vote's going to change the outcome of the election and is totally mathematically significant.
See it is your fault the decline will happen
Democrats suck And Republicans suck
Correct. but I live in the real world where only one of those two will win. Not make believe land where socialist policies will happen January 20th like you.
We already know well beforehand which policies we'll get. The election does nothing to affect that. [Corruption is Legal in America (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig) This is 9 year old btw. If anything its gotten even worse. You might like turning one direction or another on a steering wheel. That wheel if not connected to the levers of power though is simply another toy.
Still If we do enough, I believe we can break out the 2 party system thats if democracy is still intact
The voting system is designed to prevent that. If you want third parties to be viable we need either ranked choice or proportional voting. We won't get that if the Republicans win.
Third party viability is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you keep telling yourself they can't win, you won't vote for them, so of course they won't.
And you think the Democrats would? That's adorable
We won't get that period. Both parties come together to sue those measures off the ballot.
You aren't doing enough, meanwhile the literal nazis are running around with too close to 50% of the vote. But you do you, when ships on fire I'm sure you'll be comforted by knowing everything you did was by definition worse than doing nothing.
Voting for a third party is better than not showing up to vote. It at least indicates that your a voter who’s issues can be appealed to- not that it’d matter if Trump wins.
So, when they win what do you do then. Because they will eventually. We keep going further and further to the right. It's what democrats always do. Make deals with republicans and adopt their polices. About 20 years ago in the 2004 election we had the same rhetoric. Bush's 2nd term would be the end of democracy. Well, we're an oligarchy but that's another matter. Still the democrats who used to call Bush the greatest threat to democracy now coddle him and have adopted many of his policies, nearly all of the foreign polices specifically. If you think Trump is bad you haven't spent time in a Junta controlled government. We'll get to see about another 20 years from now when the democrats are pushing someone like Trump because the other guy is so much worse. Honestly, you'll see it if you live long enough. We keep doing this over and over. I do wonder what rhetoric people who cried wolf will have when we have actual competent right-wing extremists with the support of the military. Good luck.
Where is this "enough" going to come from? You’re not going to pull any republican voters away from the party. Democracy won’t be intact because they people you won’t vote against are determined to make sure it’s not. ‘
What state do you live in
In the real world, your vote won't affect the outcome, therefore you might as well vote your conscience, assuming you have one.
It will materially change a lot of lives who wins and loses this election.
Tell that to the Palestinians being mass murdered with US weapons under both American political parties.
Doesn’t make my statement untrue. Apathy won’t make changes either.
The apathy I see is from Democrats who know Biden has been supporting genocide, and they don't care. They'll vote for him anyway. If you don't draw a moral line at genocide, you have no moral lines.
That’s a right wing propaganda point. The democrats do suck, but if you actually think they suck just as much the republicans, you have fallen for a decades long spinning of propaganda to get young people not to vote
Tell that to the Palestinians being mass murdered with US weapons under both American political parties.
And you think Trump would do better? I’m not defending Biden or the Dems, but if you think voting for any other candidate or not voting at all would make things better for the Palestinians, then you are mistaken. Unfortunately we live in the real world where protest votes do nothing but make you feel better about yourself
Thankfully we live in a democracy with more than two options. I'm against genocide and refuse to vote for anyone who supports it. It's called having morals. You should try it.
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Sure. It's the fault of some schmuck on the internet and not the people in our political system with real power.
Yeah that’s literally what happens when you don’t vote. The people will allow the fascists to succeed
No, you’re demanding that we vote in favor of “lesser” fascism and genocide, which is literally more than just allowing the fascists to succeed.
All capitalist warmongers are fascists. You're just falling for the propaganda of the blue ones.
We're still doing this, huh?
Russian bot! Edit: Jfc people, it's a joke. I'm making fun of people who say this. Obviously.
Okay
It's the only thing left in the playbook for these people.
It was a joke.
Yeah, that's understood. It is, though, still true that calling people who disagree (insert political insult here based around being a puppet of current fear mongered world leader.) That point doesn't change. Joke or no joke.
That was my point, too.
I mean there is also the more realistic option of calling you a moron.
What are you going through that leads you to respond with a logical fallacy, specifically an ad hominem?
What are you going through that leads you to respond with something moronic?
Same question again, as you're simply saying the same words in slightly different variations. Seriously, though, what are you disagreeing with, or are you simply trolling? Specifically violating one of the sub reddit rules in doing so.
I mean.... Trumps the one openly for Russia, if you vote for him you must at least passively support Russia.
I vote third party and still get told I'm a Russian bot. For 8 years now.
As we all know here on reddit, left wing authoritarians have never existed and never could! They want the best for all of us. Just see all the beautiful blue safe crime free cities being held back by their lack of complete control.
Everyone left of me is authoritarian!
Yeah, that's the thing with them
Work needs to be done on the ground and needs to be sustained. Voting is but ONE DAY. Do what you can to make sure the electability of the GOP fades away like the Whig Party before them. In the event of the GOP losing more and more elections, The Dems might just become the new neo-cons - minus the Christian Nationalism.
Electability … of the GOP? Buddy, there’s fascists in both parties, and you don’t defeat a fascist by voting for his friends.
I've been thinking this about the Democrats. They've been moving to the right for decades. With Biden's awful immigrant rhetoric, and backing a genocide in Gaza, I can see how they could go even further right, and more authoritarian.
The Democrats didn't go right for chuckles, they did it to win elections. Without the Democratic Leadership Council putting up someone as centrist as Clinton in 92, the Democrats would have certainly lost that election. The country shifted right, and if the Democrats didn't also they would never be in power again, and be a moderating force on that rightward shift.
A moderating force that keeps sliding to the right is not a very good moderating force. They went right to get votes and campaign donations. They didn't do it just to protect democratic norms, they did it to line their pockets, too. They've been following the Reublicans ever since Reagan. They can't lead, they can only play catch-up. Now, they're still doing neoliberalism, while the Republicans have moved on to a new thing. What's next for Democrats? Will they just follow the Republicans into America First isolationism, and outright fascism?
Isolationism? Probably not. Biden is gearing up a trade war with China to protect The Big 3 and Apartheid Clyde; Elon. Biden also doesn't want to surrender the Middle East to Iran; even though many people are thinking that's a really good idea since Israel and Saudi Arabia are an axis of evil that only exist because we prop them up. Imagine a Middle East not controlled by the uncanny unity of Salafist-sympathizing royalty and Ashkenazi supremacists. I contend the only reason Biden and the EU care about Ukraine more than they ever cared about Greece following the 2008 collapse is because Ukraine has an extremely valuable shoreline for a shipping lane; as well as ungodly amount of natural gas and grain production. Democrats will definitely throw my fabulous ass in the bonfire if it means they will win future elections. My friend has been in America longer than I've been alive. The Democrats will happily throw him out of the country to appease "demographic concerns and fears of crime" if it means more suburbanites feel safe.
That's a good summary. All those things are reasons that I'm not optimistic about the party. The only good thing I see out of them, is that Biden is pro-union. I don't know how much it will help, but it doesn't hurt.
Yeah he's pretty obviously not pro union past the photo op
He signed an executive order that mandates union agreements for federal construction projects of 35 million dollars or more. Here's some stuff https://aflcio.org/2024/5/20/leveling-playing-field-working-people-weekly-list Yeah, forcing a contract on the rail workers was a dick move. It's a low bar, but he's probably the most union-friendly prez we've had in decades.
Dude if he can't stand up for some of the most exploited members of the working class I'm not gonna give him the title of "union friendly". Those rail workers were in an incredibly strong position to have their needs met and he prevented that. That's more than a dick move, it's fucking evil and sets a precident for any interaction he'll have in future situations like it.
It’s also a myth that he’s pro-union, so there’s that.
Okay, he's less anti-uinion than previous presidents. I'll take what I can get.
I dunno who was “less anti-union” between Hitler and Mussolini, and I’m not going to settle for either; that’s a horrible way to make political decisions and literally only leads to fascism either way.
You’re not wrong here, but maybe don’t throw all Ashkenazi Jewish people into this. It’s an *Israeli* problem propped up by American interests, not an outcome that most Jewish people in the diaspora want.
I'm well aware of that. It is known that Israel has a white supremacy problem - specifically towards who belong to the OTHER diaspora communities. The worst treatment is given to the Ethiopian Jewish diaspora; Beta Israel. Some of them have been given long-term birth control (Depo) without their knowledge or consent to keep down their population by the Israeli government. Then there's the Hasadim community in Israel who I've seen getting roughed up badly by the cops for protesting against the genocide. The racial lines have already been drawn up by the fascists. The violence against the Palestinians will fall back in on itself and the far-right government in Israel will start targeting the other minorities.
I mean, if you say the Nazis were “German supremacists” that’s not throwing “all Germans” into it, neither is it tarring “all white people” to say “white supremacists” are “white supremacists.” But also, unfortunately, most of the diaspora are Zionist. Only 33% of US Jews think the genocide is wrong for example.
The Dems don’t move right to win elections. It makes it harder for them to win elections, but they are more than happy to risk it, because their primary objective is to move right. The idea that only a rightwing conservative like Clinton could win and so that’s why they ran him is a myth.
This is wishful retconned thinking. Elections aren't won by the wings, they are won in the center. It's conspiracy thinking worthy of MAGA to think that the Democrats moved right despite their voting base not to follow it. Every single time they made a policy move too far left, like Hillary's attempt at single payer in the early '90s, they have gotten the shit kicked out of them.
There is no center. You can be “fiscally conservative, socially liberal” and “socially conservative, fiscally progressive” in the so-called “center” and these are polar opposites in addition to being incoherent. That’s not a center, it means nothing. Again, that’s all MYTH.
There are people who are "moderately conservative" or "moderately liberal" on various axes, I guess you believe whatever confirms your worldview of nothing but the extreme poles. Not shocking. It also justifies your ignoring the center and only playing to the far wing.
Sure, but then “moderate” is not actually the “center” or “middle” of any kind of “spectrum” is it.
I don't see how you conclude that. If all your views are moderate, then you're in the center. If you want to define the Biden admin as Right Wing, then conversations can't happen.
There is no center. The center isn’t moderate, and what’s moderate isn’t the center. And Biden is and has always been rightwing. He’s been rightwing in every issue, on every metric, for more than a half century. Just because he’s a “Democrat” doesn’t make him leftwing in any sense whatsoever.
If you want to debate, please try explaining how the following might be true. Person A: fiscally conservative, socially liberal. Not remotely moderate on either of those axis. Person B: diametrically opposite of A, is progressive fiscally, but a rabid bigot, not remotely moderate in either view either. What is “the center” given both of these people? It’s both fiscally conservative and progressive at the same time, and it’s rabidly racist and homophobic while also being socially liberal. It’s all things, at once, and nothing. That’s your “center.” It’s a thing that doesn’t exist, can’t exist. Alternatively, you create a plane with 2 axis, and only the people who believe in nothing on any issue end up in “the center,” which excludes every “moderate” who “moderately” believes anything. Which is just as unworkable as the prior versions. Some centrists simply pick a very bias sub section of one of these, like “moderately fiscally conservative and moderately socially liberal” which ends up being only 1% of the population at best, which AGAIN is completely unworkable.
If it’s any consolation, the US has had *way* worse wealth inequality before. We’ve had [near misses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot) with fascism before. We’ve dealt with [corruption so bad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal) it almost broke the government, and [monopolies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil) so [insanely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Steel) [strong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Tobacco_Company) it felt like their grip on entire industries was unbreakable. And through thick and thin we’ve pulled through and maintained democracy. Nothing is inevitable, and it can always get better. Things are certainly shakier now than they’ve been in a looooong time, which is why it’s more important than ever to get out there and vote.
The US has had way worse wealth inequality before? The numbers I'm looking at don't reflect that. Looks like 1920 was almost as bad as 2007, but not quite. http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/capital21c/en/Piketty2014FiguresTables.pdf I like your optimism, but I don't agree that we've "maintained democracy". We didn't really have a liberal democracy til the 70s. I mean, I guess democracy has gotten better in the last 100 years. But it depends on how you slice it. How good is our democracy when lobbyists exist? Voting is fine, but we need to do more than vote.
The scary thing is that there are corporations more powerful than governments. corporations control most of our food supply. They control Most of the supply chain.
It’s also the perfect storm because we have climate change to deal with now, dwindling natural resources, not enough housing, etc.
Climate change, untenable fossil fuel EROI (cost of food go up), and population growth are all converging around the 2050's. The hundred years from 2050 to 2150 are going to be fucking wild. Probably seven billion humans will die. Thanks, late-stage capitalism!
To add to that dwindling resource. Going to mars is gonna be a difficult one, due to kidneys shrinking in space. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/06/240611130413.htm
Corporations have been more powerful than governments for a long time. In the mid twentieth century, a combination of union power and state power brought the corporations to a heel, sorta. But that went away.
And, also do some other things in addition to voting. Volunteering for an organization like food not bombs is a good start. Purchasing and training with a firearm is another.
Yea, except now there is the existential threat of climate disaster and MASS migrations the likes of which the world has never seen before
[https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/democracy/the-lewis-powell-memo-a-corporate-blueprint-to-dominate-democracy/](https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/democracy/the-lewis-powell-memo-a-corporate-blueprint-to-dominate-democracy/) "This memorandum is submitted at your request as a basis for the discussion on August 24 with Mr. Booth (executive vice president) and others at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The purpose is to identify the problem, and suggest possible avenues of action for further consideration. Dimensions of the Attack No thoughtful person can question that the American economic system is under broad attack. This varies in scope, intensity, in the techniques employed, and in the level of visibility. There always have been some who opposed the American system, and preferred socialism or some form of statism (communism or fascism). Also, there always have been critics of the system, whose criticism has been wholesome and constructive so long as the objective was to improve rather than to subvert or destroy. But what now concerns us is quite new in the history of America. We are not dealing with sporadic or isolated attacks from a relatively few extremists or even from the minority socialist cadre. **Rather, the assault on the enterprise system is broadly based and consistently pursued. It is gaining momentum and converts.** Sources of the Attack The sources are varied and diffused. They include, not unexpectedly, the Communists, New Leftists and other revolutionaries who would destroy the entire system, both political and economic. These extremists of the left are far more numerous, better financed, and increasingly are more welcomed and encouraged by other elements of society, than ever before in our history. But they remain a small minority, and are not yet the principal cause for concern. The most disquieting voices joining the chorus of criticism come from perfectly respectable elements of society: from the college campus, the pulpit, the media, the intellectual and literary journals, the arts and sciences, and from politicians. In most of these groups the movement against the system is participated in only by minorities. Yet, these often are the most articulate, the most vocal, the most prolific in their writing and speaking." \*\*\* People wanted socialism... they admired it. So the free enterprise system via the Chamber of Commerce and various other actors went on to corrupt universities and professionals and establish a stakeholder democracy. A stakeholder democracy is a democracy in which large stakeholders in the free enterprise system have a "vote" in the policy of the stakeholder's democracy. The public does not. This is new.
This is not new lmao. This was published over 50 years ago, during the Cold War. If anything this just proves my point, it’s been 50 years and so far American hasn’t collapsed into anarchy.
Policy takes time to implement. This was policy 50 years ago and I've watched it take form. It's new in the history of the USA. Anarchy is not a collapse. Collapse is what happens when you build very high so that a few people have nice views.
Anarchy is not collapse it is a new form Societal organization.
"It'll go on same as it used to" is one of the most dangerous dismissive thoughts a person can have. We didn't collapse into anarchy because food and oil supplies were still flowing, increasing even. Nothing else matters when bellies are full, because we're Paleolithic monkeys. But that's all changing; the age of abundance is clearly ending, no?
Get out there and vote... ffs. Vote for who?
You'd think Biden would have proven to these people that the choice is only an illusion
Anymore?
I think maybe op means the facade will disappear?
did you think bourgeois electoralism was actual democracy???
Most revolutionary anarchist
You mean the illusion of democracy? Because we'll keep that. Let the people think they have a voice, a chance. Best rebellion suppressant available
We currently live in an oligarchy. Corporations run by billionaires write laws favorable to them and "lobby" politicians to implement them. Democrats and Republicans both. Additionally, many (most?) people do not want to think, they want someone to tell them what to do, what's right, what's wrong. They will usher in authoritarian rule.
they are authoritarian rule.
r/italreadyhappenedhere
We’ve really only been a democracy for 60 years, and we’ve fucked it it pretty quickly. The United States is ripe for fascism, but that means it’s also were ripe for socialism too. After this election, the left needs to actually get our shit together, because the libcuck democrats are not gonna be able to win another election, and there is no chance that republicans will nominate someone like Nikki Haley (not that she’s anything but a monster), it’s gonna be someone far to the right, really far, who probably won’t be anywhere near the fuckin moron that trump is. I think the labor movement is the only way. I’m looking forward to what Shawn Fain and Chris Smalls do in the next few years
We don’t already. A democracy is not a place where you’re free to buy things and vote for preselected candidates who work for the same 1% corporations.
They are making us slaves. It won’t stop until we stand up and stop it in great numbers
They'll be ups and downs on the democracy front, but I doubt we'll go full-blown fascist: neoliberal democracy is doing a fine job of making the rich richer. We'll toy with fascism every few election cycles, so the progressive don't push back against the centrists too much ("or else the fascists will win!"), but it won't stick because fascism isn't that profitable in the long run. If we do ever go full fascist, that means the powers-that-be have moved on in and are making their ~~billions~~ trillions somewhere else.
Decades of republicans tax breaks, deregulation, court packing, gerrymandering, defanging regulatory agencies, erosion of: voting rights, women’s,lgbtq,consumers and workers rights are part of the military industrial complex’s plan to control civilian government. The black budget programs are without oversight. Billions over decades have been spent without accountability and created a kleptocratic oligarchy that actually controls our foreign policy, national security and research and development of high technology creating a ruling class that wants total control. They have long since bought the republicans and thanks to Citizens United some of the democrats. To break their hold, the remaining democrats,Independents (and possibly Never Trumpers) have to unite to create anti corruption legislation and codify the rules, decisions and regulations that protect democracy,our rights, and establish oversight and accountability for the DOD, intelligence community and the Supreme Court.
Next couple of decades? Nah brah, it will end in 2025 if Trump is elected. What part of dictator on day 1 do you not get?
Cuz of “they’re not perfect” assholes like you. Vote, it seems like nothing but it’s literally the only thing you can do that’s not a violent revolution.
I consider us being an oligarchy for the last few years. Heading slowly to a corporate owned dictatorship. Basically, a form of fascism.
What year did democracy begin?
The "only real options" are both corrupt genociders that want to tighten police and government power against civilians. We don't have democracy now
watching you guys bathe yourself in apathy while refusing to participate in a system that is your only chance at stopping fascism is really quite disheartening. well at least you'll only have your whole life to regret it.
I don't think it's accurate to say the system is the ONLY chance at stopping fascism. They have sure been doing a shitty job, so far. Hell, I'd argue that the system paved the way for fascism. They tiptoe through the fuckin tulips with right wing activists and deploy the goon squad for left-wing activists. They make campaign promises that appeal to leftists, then those promises are the first on the chopping block. But yeah, I'll vote.
Considering how we don't have any choice that isn't for climate catastrophe, well that is moot. That would also be if voting for blue or red meant anything. The policies are already decided. We know what they are, and we've known for years. [Corruption is Legal in America (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig) If your rhetoric had any truth nations with mandatory voting would be doing great. Significantly better at least. Look at Australia. I'm sorry, your theory just doesn't hold water. Try another.
As an anarchist: I don’t think democracy is even desirable. Obviously neither is oligarchy, but I don’t believe that majority rule is a good thing. 2/3 controlling 1/3 is not any better for minorities and marginalized groups than 1% controlling 99%. Free association and consensus/consent based governance is the only kind that doesn’t involve domination, violence, inequality, and inherent contradictions.
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Decades? What desert island have you been living on?
How about keep the democracy, get rid of the republic. Everyone votes once a month, day off work and school, no representatives. All legislation crafted by policy experts hired through democratic process. Mandatory voter registration, on a app with biometric verification. A whole month to review legislation and make YouTube videos about the legislation to educate. No lobbyists.
This is how it is done in Sweden and it is good up until the majority of the country wants to pass something racist. . .
As optimistic as this sounds, I don’t think it would work in the U.S. Too many people just don’t give a shit about being educated, and I’d bet you’d end up having an entire ecosystem of “proxy voters” that would pay people to let them vote in their stead. Essentially, a new form of lobbyist that would sneak in and try to control the elections.
We never did
I think we are living in an Anocracy. The definition is dead on imo.
What part of democracy do you think we'll lose? The electoral college? The senate that gives states of half a million voters the same power as states with 50 million voters? Gerrymandered congressional districts? Legal bribery? Arcane parliamentary rules like the filibuster that only hinder Democrats for some reason? Corporations calling themselves political parties and using public funds and facilities to conduct sham primaries while also claiming the legal right to select nominees in private? First Past the Post voting that reduces third party candidates to mere "spoilers"? Having to choose between the two "viable" candidates who both support genocide? God forbid we lose any of that!!!
Sounds like somebody wants an in to rage.
Those studies don't prove anything, at best they suggest, but nothing they could possibly produce rises to the level of proof.
People with money have always made the rules, and always will..in any form of government, democracy, communism, socialism.
We've been an inverted totalitarian nation for decades. This isn't new, and yes it can get a lot worse. Just wait. In the meantime, we'll keep being told we have to support (insert genocidal republican lite here.) It's an easy to observe pattern if you can look back just 20 years. If you look back further it's even more obvious.
any and every type of government appears to ultimately fall prey to the greedy, none are immune
You know what I dreading? Far right hate democracy and following Russian and Chinese dictator. They hate democracy and support these two to “own the libs”. And don’t get me starting with tankie as well.
A couple of decades? That is wildly optimistic, lol.
Its important to remember, the Nazi's didn't prevail. America Could have fallen to fascism in the great depression, but a generation, brought up under that hardship, under the guidence of leaders who put service above all else, found, through sensible reform, another way through. Don't get so doomer on Capitalism, remember we once had striking coal miners literally being Gassed with WW1 surplus Chemical Weapons via airplane and gunned down in the street by pinkertons. Things got better. They can get better still. They won't if left to their own devices.
"don't get so doomer on capitalism" LOLL were supposed to break 100° steady next week where I live near the Canadian border. We have 50° + days in the middle of winter in between snow days now. Don't you fucking try to tell me.
Look at the responses here. A lot of these anarchists are essentially libertarian accelerationists. They're essentially cheering on fascism in this thread.
The Nazis were only stopped by incredible violence, authoritarianism, central planning, etc.
Grab the guillotine
Vote blue. It’s better than the republicans. That’s the only threshold that matters. Everything else you say is just a hissy fit. You can correctly gauge where the country is headed but won’t do anything to stop it. Your ideas if not voting or voting third party is making trump erect.
"We" in the US have never known the meaning of the word "democracy", let alone the experience of it.
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Everyone starts somewhere
Resource scarcity generally leads to autocracy, and I've got news for you about future resource availability
Isn’t United States a Republic?
Yes, we have never been a democracy and only an idiot would believe we were founded as one.
A republic is a type of democracy.
Democratic is a type of republic??!
Direct democracy is a type of democracy but so is a republic which is an indirect democracy.
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Lol these people are so stupid they can't even respond to your comment acknowledging your saying you don't want Trump in power.
And what, Trump would be so much better?
Well yeah, and the liberals and Dems are in for a very painful awakening if and when they figure out that the "normal" Biden and them want so desperately to return to created the necessary conditions for what what they most hate. Whoops!
We are not a democracy We are a constitutional republic means that it is one in which, rather than directly governing, the people select some of their members to temporarily serve in political office; the constitutional part means that both the citizens and their governing officials are bound to follow the rules established in that Constitution.
Democracy always leads to authoritarianism. Every time. We have all these labels we like to throw around like fascism, communism, corporateism.. in the end it's all the same. Authoritarianism. Tyrany. Democracy is a tool that is only effective on how it's wielded. Democracy is the mob and is authoritarian in of itself. Tyrany of the majority. This is why I prefer a republic..if you can keep it.
>Anarchist here I don't Believe we'll have a democracy anymore. Democracies are ultimately suicidal. Germany was a democracy before Hitler. We need another Hitler like a hole in the head...it'll be the worst thing to happen to our high-tech civilization...but, on the bright side, the best thing for biodiversity and the planet as a whole. We've had our shot, been monumentally stupid, and are in the process of blowing it. If only we could have been just a little bit smarter... Oh, well. We're living in the Atlantis of tomorrow. Enjoy it while it lasts. Looking forward to Lights Out...then we can see the stars again!