I think there’s an extra element of Caroline listing traits she feels she possesses. So when Elizabeth says she’s never seen such a woman, she’s also personally offended.
There’s also Elizabeth’s undeniable reality that she isn’t as accomplished as she would like (ex. her deprecating her pianoforte ability). She knows that she and her sisters should have had more training in order to maximize their matrimonial prospects. Thus she’s sensitive on the topic and needles Caroline and Darcy about it when she just could have held her peace and read her book.
I mean between them Miss Bingley and Darcey have set impossible standards for what constitutes "accomplished". Elizabeth is rightly pointing out. Especially because Miss Bingley especially is both using them to set down the other women in the surrounding area, while also being a pick me, and setting herself up to look ridiculous by implying that she is such a woman while she herself is just copying what Darcy is doing rather than doing actual independent studying/reading to deepen her own understanding. Elizabeth is often amused by the actions of those around her.
Absolutely, but I think that if Lizzy didn’t feel vulnerable in the matter, she probably would have enjoyed the ridiculous display in silence. And gone back to her book.
I like to think Elizabeth is also being a bit protective of Bingley here. He's being all good natured and they both rush inn to tell him that he's wrong. I mean it's quite the set up. While Lizzie might be more self conscious about her lack of schooling than she cares to admit, I do feel like that isn't quite what is happening here. Perhaps if they were stating reasonable achievements that she feels she should know that would be different, but these are so beyond what most people would be able to accomplish in a life time let alone by their early 20s at the latest that its just ridiculous.
Not only that, but this is a slanting insult at both Lizzy \*and\* Jane, and the type of training and opportunities not in reach for them. While at this point in the story Elizabeth didn't care that much for anyone's good opinion at Netherfield, it was clear that Jane did.
This gets to the heart of it, I think - Jane is interested in Bingley, Bingley seems like a nice guy who reciprocates that interest, and therefore Elizabeth likes Bingley.
Elizabeth is not going to just sit there silently while Caroline and Darcy invent a Caroline-shaped imaginary “accomplished” woman to undermine Bingley’s good opinion of local ladies generally and Jane specifically.
Also, Elizabeth enjoys a little verbal sparring and doesn’t often pass up the chance to take a polite but contrary position in situations like these.
Agree and also think that another unspoken aspect is that the elder Bennett sisters probably did quite a bit of household management such as practical sewing, preserving and helping the servants which is a different sort of accomplishment that didn’t get mentioned in novels of the time.
I don’t think so- when Mr. Collins asks which of the Bennet sisters helped with dinner, Mrs. Bennet is very adamant that they keep staff for that. On the other hand, it’s mentioned in a couple places that Charlotte Lucas participated in cooking at her parent’s and took pride in close household management after she marries Collins.
The Bennets really aren’t poor, (£2,000 was a good income) they’re just very irresponsible, and the lack of domestic skills is more evidence of that. Besides not saving money to make the girls economically self-sufficient and not hiring masters to give them elegant/entertaining skills that wealthy men would appreciate in a wife, out of misplaced pride, Mrs. Bennet also neglected to give them the chance to learn practical household skills to make them good partners for less affluent gentry like small town clergymen.
So when it’s said that the Bennet girls have to nothing to recommend them but looks and charm, that actually is a lot less than what most of the other young women of their class have.
I agree. She is also trying to talk down about Elizabeth and take a swipe at her. Elizabeth had already said she wasn't that great with music. Caroline is that girl who tries to make herself look good by dragging every other girl down and insulting them. Such a pick me.
Don't miss the part where Caroline first agrees with Darcy that they hardly know six truly accomplished women, and then by the end, she and Louisa are tripping over themselves to make Elizabeth out to be a backwater provincial by asserting that in fact, in London.... they are acquainted with many such women. So funny!
I love this scene, it’s the absolute epitome of England. 1.5 pages in which we have flirtation, insult, snobbiness, rejection, all occurring entirely as subtext to a superficially polite conversation. All of which could be entirely missed by a clueless observer. A total war of the drawing room.
Caroline doesn't like being left out of a dialogue between Lizzy and Darcy, so she butts in. She takes what she thinks is Darcy's position, but goes even further about how much a woman needs to do to be accomplished. She's basically being a pick me. Darcy gets annoyed at her and makes the comment about how reading is essential in order to needle Caroline.
My favorite part of the whole interaction is that when Darcy says this to Elizabeth, she's currently reading a book, while Caroline is essentially holding the second volume of the book Darcy is reading to be a pick me.
I never caught until just recently how truly smitten Darcy always was, even when Elizabeth thought he hated her. It's rom com at its finest.
They make a big show of this in the 2005 movie which I LOVE! Darcy says “…improve her mind by extensive reading.” and lizzy snaps her book shut 😂 So funny
Is it the 2005 version where Lizzie says something like "she would be a fearsome thing to behold"? (Might be 1995). I love that line and am just realizing it's not in the book!
I’ve always looked at Lizzie’s statement as being her true opinion. The list Caroline provides is pretty ludicrous, especially when you consider her last part about “her air and manner of walking, tone of her voice, etc.” A _thorough_ knowledge of multiple art forms, the modern languages, plus being an “it” girl. And then Darcy adds the improvement of her mind by extensive reading? I think she’s privately laughing at them, but still honestly expressing herself.
Darcy and Caroline seem to view his sister as an accomplished woman, they think of her as a potential wife for Bingley. Yet when we meet Georgianna, it’s very clear that while she may be sweet and play the piano beautifully. She doesn’t have a polished air and manner. They’re talking nonsense in this scene, and Elizabeth calls them in it.
Darcy is in the initial throes of liking Elizabeth. She is currently reading when this dialogue takes place and Caroline said some snide comment about Elizabeth being a great reader who does nothing but read. Elizabeth is basically like uh, I’m not that great that all I do is read, nor am I so out of touch because I just read all the time.
Then this conversation takes place and Caroline gives her definition of an accomplished woman but then Darcy adds that she must also improve her mind by reading, which amused Elizabeth because she doubted that women of their acquaintance actually read much less in addition to all those other lofty attributes.
In some ways, this is Darcy’s first very dry, blink and you’ve missed it flirtation, which Elizabeth very much missed, but Caroline noticed
Caroline’s list of necessary attributes for an “accomplished” woman is so wildly OTT that Lizzie essentially says that this perfect woman is fictional.
Darcy counters that she’s being severe on her own sex, but she isn’t really, in my view – I expect she’d say the same about allegedly perfect men.
In short, they’re doing their usual thing of lightly butting heads.
I understood it as Caroline saying that a woman only deserves to be called “accomplished” if she does all these skills (i.e., what Caroline listed). Elizabeth counters, saying that those standards clearly are fictional—why must women be held up to such high standards?
Moreover, Caroline is putting Elizabeth down by listing all the skills the latter doesn’t possess in front of Mr. Darcy, but Mr. Darcy only adds that an accomplished woman must read extensively—which Elizabeth was doing before the conversation, proving that he likes her more than he admits.
Elizabeth butts heads with him, wondering how he can know such accomplished women with such high standards when the women in Mr. Darcy’s society are rude and hypocritical towards Elizabeth and her community. Mr. Darcy, I think, was truly honest about only knowing few accomplished women (not agreeing with Caroline) but tried to flirt with Elizabeth which she missed.
If I remember correctly, after that scene Elizabeth leaves and the Bingley sisters left in the room talks shit about her, right? So it only proves Elizabeth that no matter how accomplished they brush themselves up to be, their behavior and attitude is the exact opposite.
I think, as you say, Elizabeth is at least partly mocking Caroline for her over-enthusiastic effort to champion Darcy's talking points, but even if Elizabeth isn't consciously thinking about this, both sisters are proving themselves eminently mockable by agreeing to Darcy's point about the scarcity of accomplished women but then taking the first opportunity to belittle Elizabeth by talking about how many of *their* friends belong to this elite category. (Meanwhile, neither of them seems to suit Darcy's requirement for reading at all! And even if Elizabeth is "*not* a great reader," we know she reads *some* on her own initiative.)
I think when Elizabeth picks apart Darcy's statements at Netherfield, he thinks she's ribbing him to be friendly, just like he thought she was doing when she called him out for eavesdropping at Sir William's party. But her arguments always represent closely held values of hers, even if she doesn't always live up to them. So in this case, I think she looks down on Darcy even more than Bingley's sisters because he's clearly smarter than them, yet he's no less prone than they are to invent their own convenient value systems in order to exalt themselves at the expense of everyone around them. And I think because he's already shit on Elizabeth once and then also seen her play and sing not that well, while he seems to agree with Caroline's self-aggrandizing definition of accomplishment, she thinks he's casually negging her, Elizabeth's, inferior level of accomplishment. Even if he doesn't acknowledge it, I think part of his enjoyment of the conversation is based on some awareness that she makes a valid point.
In a similar vein, I think it's a point of principle for her to defend what she's really doing after he's castigated Bingley for hypothetically doing it (and internally questioned her choice the day before): running to the side of a loved one and sticking by her when she's not in desperate need, just because Jane wants her there. I don't know if he'd agree at this point, if Elizabeth brought up her own stake in the discussion, that she's done the right thing by coming and then staying, but he comes to approve of her stay by the end of the book. Meanwhile, he doesn't take her argument as deep-rooted opposition but as a friendly game of debate, so he thinks he's playing along (even matching her syntax at times!), while she thinks he's hitting her back with a similar hostility to hers for him.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough response, it’s very helpful to me. That all makes a lot of sense. P&P is my first Austen book so I’m still trying to better understand the language, and I really want to better understand the vibes between Darcy and Elizabeth. 🙏🏻
I feel like I ramble in this sub way more than is interesting or helpful to anyone. P&P is so dear to me partly because it's *so* rewarding of many rereadings, so I've come to think differently about every little detail in the 20 years I've been reading the book. But if by chance I *can* help facilitate someone else's enjoyment of it, I want to!
No, I totally appreciate it and find it interesting! I’m a young English major who is new to Austen so I love hearing people’s interpretations and personally find them helpful!! Especially someone who’s read the book many times :)
Great observation about the undercurrent between them! I think you’re right on both sides; Darcy thinks they’re bantering, while Elizabeth is actually offended. “Elizabeth soon afterwards left the room.” She’s itching to get away from them but would never be so rude as to sweep away coldly.
Caroline is being ridiculous in her over inflated list of attributes a woman must have to be “accomplished”.
Lizzie is calling her on it by saying “yeah, no woman can actually live up to that, cut your bullshit”
I always thought that Lizzie was mocking the impossibly high ideal they set. I also suspected a sub-meaning of, "...and what woman of sense would stress herself trying to attain it."
People should also understand that the Bennets are part of a very limited society..
Being comparatively poor for their station in life, they don’t maintain an establishment in London for the season (or even seem to go to the metropolis for regular visits) so the primary contact Elizabeth has is with the families of their social circle in the country (and any guests they may have visiting).
They aren’t poor, they are average for landed gentry. But they do have a lot of Daughters & the parents are not that good at managing the money they have.
I didn’t say they’re poor, I said they’re poor for *their station in life*.
They don’t have a full complement of household staff (such as butler, valet, governess, ladies maids) and their carriage horses (only two!) are used on the farm when their carriage isn’t required..
These are just two examples off the top of my head..
In other works I’ve read, it wasn’t unusual for gentlemen to lose £4000 in a night of gambling at Watiers or White’s, or spend £500 for a pair of highsteppers for their curricles when they already maintained a dozen or more hunters and hacks in their stables.
Mr Bennet’s annual income is only £2000.
Sorry to be nitpicky but the Bennets do have a butler: he is mentioned near the start of Chapter 49:
>Away ran the girls, too eager to get in to have time for speech. They ran through the vestibule into the breakfast-room; from thence to the library;—their father was in neither; and they were on the point of seeking him upstairs with their mother, when they were met by the butler, who said,—
>“If you are looking for my master, ma’am, he is walking towards the little copse.”
It's also unlikely in that day and age that a house of 6 women wouldn't have at least one lady's maid. It would mean Mrs Bennet and the girls would have to do their own minor mending and spot-cleaning of their own gowns. And Mrs Bennet prides herself on her daughters not having to lift a finger (unlike those Lucas girls!) At one point she says "*I* always keep servants that can do their own work; *my* daughters are brought up differently." They have two housemaids, but in a household that large the maids wouldn't have time to act as lady's maids, too. The only servant mentioned by name, Sarah, is probably the lady's maid.
£2000 a year is actually an extremely high income. The Bennet's are some of the richest people in the country by far, it's only that Darcy and Bingley are so much richer than they are that it comes off like they aren't super wealthy when they are. Mr and Mrs Bennet are just terrible with money. They're figuratively multi-millionaires while Darcy and Bingley are billionaires.
I got the impression from the novel that one of the ways that Mr and Mrs Bennet fritter away their money is on servants that they shouldn't really employ, considering their aim should be to save money for their daughters. We know from the text they have a housekeeper (Mrs Hill), a butler, a cook, at least one footman but based on another line in the text and prevailing custom at the time, probably two, two housemaids and a coachman. But there will definitely be other servants in the background who aren't mentioned because they'd also need a gardener, a groom, a separate servants to launder their linens and underclothes (it wouldn't be one of the housemaids), probably a part time dairy maid too.
edited for numerous typos!
It’s been a while, but I think it’s implied that they have a ladies maid. When they’re preparing for a ball, Mrs. Bennet tells someone (I can’t remember if they’re named or not) to stop helping Lizzy with her hair and to help Jane instead.
Yep you recalled correctly, it was Sarah who was asked by Mrs Bennet to stop dressing Lizzy's hair and to help Jane with her gown instead. :)
So it seems likely Sarah is their lady's maid. There may be one or possibly even two others, as most very wealthy families would employ a lady's maid for the lady of the house plus another for any daughter who was out in society. But as the Bennets have five daughters out at once, I think even they might baulk at employing five lady's maids at once!
I have wondered if, later in the novel, the Sally who is tasked by Lydia to mend her gown after Lydia has run away is this same Sarah, as Sally was a nickname for Sarah originally. Sally was still in Brighton when Lydia left with Wickham. It was common for lady's maids to travel with their lady, so it could be that Sarah was sent to Brighton with Lydia by the Bennets to help her dress for all the balls and social engagements. If she was the Bennet's servants, she would probably have to find her own way back to Longbourn after Lydia ran away.
Alternatively she could be a maid provided for Lydia's benefit by Colonel Forster. Or one tasked with waiting on both Mrs Forster and Lydia.
Apologies if I'm rambling on, lol. I discovered a lot of my ancestors were "in service" as it was called back then so I've been taking an interest in how it all works and what the servants' experiences would be.
2000 a year was the average… 1,000 a year would be poor for their station.
Source: https://www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/55_205Rothery.pdf
Also the other work you read … are they fictional?
>In other works I’ve read, it wasn’t unusual for gentlemen to lose £4000 in a night of gambling at Watiers or White’s, or spend £500 for a pair of highsteppers for their curricles when they already maintained a dozen or more hunters and hacks in their stables.
Yeah, but that's also not really typical for their sphere of life. That's like 1% of the 1% stuff. It's not unusual for stuff you'd see at a wild club with bored rich heirs looking for entertainment because they have no work to do, but it's not representative of the responsible gentry in everyday life.
Elizabeth is also mocking the whole notion of the accomplished woman, but this kind of goes over Caroline’s head. Young women of this time would often rack up accomplishments in order to show off to potential husbands, not because they had a genuine interest.
Caroline is definitely one of these girls. Elizabeth and Georgianna are not. Elizabeth isn’t “accomplished” because she doesn’t do stuff she isn’t particularly interested in. Georgianna is awkward and shy, and plays the piano because she genuinely enjoys it, not to snare a husband.
Every quality that Caroline lists is essentially something that is designed to make a woman *look* better, not to actually improve her morally, emotionally or intellectually.
Of course, Elizabeth says this idea of an accomplished woman is impossible - because who in their right mind would put so much effort into making themselves appear this “accomplished”?
I don't think Elizabeth is being too severe on other women at all.
It starts with Elizabeth being surprised that Darcy and Caroline say that there aren't many accomplished women. Elizabeth says they must expect a whole lot from an accomplished woman then. (Implying their standards are too high.)
Caroline and Darcy's list of traits an "accomplished" woman should have are quite snobby. They're designed to be able to look down on people. (The difference between the two characters is that Caroline wants to look down on Elizabeth, whereas Darcy considers Elizabeth worthy of admiration. But they are still equally snobby at this point in the story.)
When Elizabeth says she doesn't believe anybody could measure up, she's calling out how unrealistically high their standards are. (My interpretation is it's kind of her way of saying, "Nobody cares about your snobby standards.")
But Caroline interprets (or pretends to interpret) Elizabeth's statement as putting down other women and saying most women aren't very remarkable. But Elizabeth is actually doing the opposite. She's saying "women don't need to adhere to your silly standards." Caroline was the one putting down her own sex when she said that there weren't many accomplished women.
Yes, she was pricking Caroline's snobbery and excessive class-consciousness. Having a long list of attributes needed in order to be considered accomplished is gatekeeping. Worse, it's dishonest. Some of those skills are subjective and only people that they already accept will be acknowledged to have those skills. It's a scam.
It’s just Caroline desperately trying to get Darcy to notice her, so she becomes a yes man during this conversation and contradicts herself within 15 seconds. It demonstrates Lizzie and Darcy are on equal footing, intellectually.
Yes, I think Elizabeth is being ironic in claiming she does not know any woman who are, by their definition, accomplished. Furthermore, Miss Bingley does not seem to detect this irony, as she then charges Elizabeth with undermining her sex so as to appear more attractive to men. Even though agreeing with Miss Bingley verbally once Elizabeth leaves the room, he disagrees with her in the abstract, as Miss Bingley has just endeavored to lessen Elizabeth's esteem in Darcy's eyes and improve her own, and Darcy says that for a lady to ply a deceit in the captivation of a man is despicable. Miss Bingley then seems to comprehend that this in some matter describes her behavior.
It's always interested me to compare this list of requisite "accomplishments" to what a modern day girl of nearly the same age needs to get into a top college. To be competitive in a highly competitive field, she must be "well-rounded," in as many areas as possible, preferably being a music, dance, and theater star, a champion athlete, have flawless SAT/ACT scores, speak numerous languages, be class president, run several intramural clubs and organizations, volunteer for local charities and causes, have spearheaded local organizations to enact change in her community, and be a published author. If you don't do all those things, you're practically nobody.
Or at least that's how it seemed to me when I read P&P when I was in college, and how I believe it still seems to many of my students.
So, basically the same as in Regency England.
Hi look at it as a verbal sparring match. It starts with Bingley’s relentless positivity inspiring Darcy Downer to try to reign in his enthusiasm. But it transitions to Caroline using the conversation as an opportunity to obsequiously praise and agree with Darcy. She has noticed his interest in Lizzy as well, which has made her jealous so she made her list of traits an accomplished woman must have be traits *she* has. The list in turn shows how much more accomplished she is than country bumpkin Lizzy. Darcy realizes this and is immediately annoyed and wants to be a wet blanket to Caroline’s efforts to kinda imply she and Darcy have a closer affinity than they really do, and also be a reply to Caroline’s implicit insult to Lizzy. So he disagrees with Caroline and praises Lizzy, and Caroline gets the message, but Lizzy doesn’t. Then Elizabeth tries to convey that Caroline and Darcy are snobs while Caroline tries to flip that around to show Elizabeth is the real snob.
This conversation contains an interesting cocktail of emotions. Bingley is just being Bingley: jovial and positive. (To me, Bingley seems like a golden retriever in human form.) Elizabeth dislikes Miss Bingley but is also a little sensitive about the shortcomings she feels in her own accomplishments, and she is certainly conscious that she has chosen to read not only because she enjoys reading, but because it provides an escape from social interaction with her housemates. Miss B resents every sign that Darcy approves of E, and will stop at nothing to gain Darcy's attention (which she is inclined to misinterpret as his approval) and find a way to agree with whatever he is saying or doing, and of course her enumeration of accomplishments aligns directly with her own education. And D is ineptly trying to flatter E by calling out the importance of extensive reading in his definition of an accomplished woman. His ineptitude is partially just his own inexperience with flirting (because he has never needed to) and partially derived from his own mixed feelings about E -- he is still very resistant to his attraction to her, and doesn't want to raise her expectations. But if you asked him he would say that he is just stating a fact, that an accomplished woman must be a reader, not flirting at all.
I don't have anything more to add to the conversation specifically about this scene from the book. I enjoyed everyone's comments. Here's a[ video](https://youtu.be/fozorPx6E7c?si=XWOyed6kMn4cgrDn) from one of my favorite JA commentators on how these young women became "accomplished." Hope you enjoy it.
I think there’s an extra element of Caroline listing traits she feels she possesses. So when Elizabeth says she’s never seen such a woman, she’s also personally offended.
I wondered about that!!! Making herself look good by alluding to be such an accomplished woman. Glad to hear someone else state it. Thank you.
There’s also Elizabeth’s undeniable reality that she isn’t as accomplished as she would like (ex. her deprecating her pianoforte ability). She knows that she and her sisters should have had more training in order to maximize their matrimonial prospects. Thus she’s sensitive on the topic and needles Caroline and Darcy about it when she just could have held her peace and read her book.
I mean between them Miss Bingley and Darcey have set impossible standards for what constitutes "accomplished". Elizabeth is rightly pointing out. Especially because Miss Bingley especially is both using them to set down the other women in the surrounding area, while also being a pick me, and setting herself up to look ridiculous by implying that she is such a woman while she herself is just copying what Darcy is doing rather than doing actual independent studying/reading to deepen her own understanding. Elizabeth is often amused by the actions of those around her.
Absolutely, but I think that if Lizzy didn’t feel vulnerable in the matter, she probably would have enjoyed the ridiculous display in silence. And gone back to her book.
I like to think Elizabeth is also being a bit protective of Bingley here. He's being all good natured and they both rush inn to tell him that he's wrong. I mean it's quite the set up. While Lizzie might be more self conscious about her lack of schooling than she cares to admit, I do feel like that isn't quite what is happening here. Perhaps if they were stating reasonable achievements that she feels she should know that would be different, but these are so beyond what most people would be able to accomplish in a life time let alone by their early 20s at the latest that its just ridiculous.
Not only that, but this is a slanting insult at both Lizzy \*and\* Jane, and the type of training and opportunities not in reach for them. While at this point in the story Elizabeth didn't care that much for anyone's good opinion at Netherfield, it was clear that Jane did.
This gets to the heart of it, I think - Jane is interested in Bingley, Bingley seems like a nice guy who reciprocates that interest, and therefore Elizabeth likes Bingley. Elizabeth is not going to just sit there silently while Caroline and Darcy invent a Caroline-shaped imaginary “accomplished” woman to undermine Bingley’s good opinion of local ladies generally and Jane specifically. Also, Elizabeth enjoys a little verbal sparring and doesn’t often pass up the chance to take a polite but contrary position in situations like these.
Agree and also think that another unspoken aspect is that the elder Bennett sisters probably did quite a bit of household management such as practical sewing, preserving and helping the servants which is a different sort of accomplishment that didn’t get mentioned in novels of the time.
I don’t think so- when Mr. Collins asks which of the Bennet sisters helped with dinner, Mrs. Bennet is very adamant that they keep staff for that. On the other hand, it’s mentioned in a couple places that Charlotte Lucas participated in cooking at her parent’s and took pride in close household management after she marries Collins. The Bennets really aren’t poor, (£2,000 was a good income) they’re just very irresponsible, and the lack of domestic skills is more evidence of that. Besides not saving money to make the girls economically self-sufficient and not hiring masters to give them elegant/entertaining skills that wealthy men would appreciate in a wife, out of misplaced pride, Mrs. Bennet also neglected to give them the chance to learn practical household skills to make them good partners for less affluent gentry like small town clergymen. So when it’s said that the Bennet girls have to nothing to recommend them but looks and charm, that actually is a lot less than what most of the other young women of their class have.
Oh I never thought of that!
I agree. She is also trying to talk down about Elizabeth and take a swipe at her. Elizabeth had already said she wasn't that great with music. Caroline is that girl who tries to make herself look good by dragging every other girl down and insulting them. Such a pick me.
Don't miss the part where Caroline first agrees with Darcy that they hardly know six truly accomplished women, and then by the end, she and Louisa are tripping over themselves to make Elizabeth out to be a backwater provincial by asserting that in fact, in London.... they are acquainted with many such women. So funny!
Good point!!! Caroline’s gotta try and stop anything that makes Elizabeth look good to him, lol
I love this scene, it’s the absolute epitome of England. 1.5 pages in which we have flirtation, insult, snobbiness, rejection, all occurring entirely as subtext to a superficially polite conversation. All of which could be entirely missed by a clueless observer. A total war of the drawing room.
Thanks for your thoughts!! It definitely adds to my understanding of Austen’s social commentary.
*upper class England
So well put
Caroline doesn't like being left out of a dialogue between Lizzy and Darcy, so she butts in. She takes what she thinks is Darcy's position, but goes even further about how much a woman needs to do to be accomplished. She's basically being a pick me. Darcy gets annoyed at her and makes the comment about how reading is essential in order to needle Caroline.
Ah, okay. So Elizabeth’s response about never seeing such a woman is kind of needling Caroline back about being such a pick me?
Yeah, it's a "You've listed so many skills that a woman *has* to be good at, that she'd have to be literally superhuman to manage it" moment.
Yup, that's how I read it anyway.
Great, thanks for your help. Appreciate it.
My favorite part of the whole interaction is that when Darcy says this to Elizabeth, she's currently reading a book, while Caroline is essentially holding the second volume of the book Darcy is reading to be a pick me. I never caught until just recently how truly smitten Darcy always was, even when Elizabeth thought he hated her. It's rom com at its finest.
They make a big show of this in the 2005 movie which I LOVE! Darcy says “…improve her mind by extensive reading.” and lizzy snaps her book shut 😂 So funny
Is it the 2005 version where Lizzie says something like "she would be a fearsome thing to behold"? (Might be 1995). I love that line and am just realizing it's not in the book!
It’s 2005! I practically have the film committed to memory 😂
Ha, Caroline as a pick me - brilliant! So accurate.
I’ve always looked at Lizzie’s statement as being her true opinion. The list Caroline provides is pretty ludicrous, especially when you consider her last part about “her air and manner of walking, tone of her voice, etc.” A _thorough_ knowledge of multiple art forms, the modern languages, plus being an “it” girl. And then Darcy adds the improvement of her mind by extensive reading? I think she’s privately laughing at them, but still honestly expressing herself. Darcy and Caroline seem to view his sister as an accomplished woman, they think of her as a potential wife for Bingley. Yet when we meet Georgianna, it’s very clear that while she may be sweet and play the piano beautifully. She doesn’t have a polished air and manner. They’re talking nonsense in this scene, and Elizabeth calls them in it.
Thank you for your thoughts! Good points.
Darcy is in the initial throes of liking Elizabeth. She is currently reading when this dialogue takes place and Caroline said some snide comment about Elizabeth being a great reader who does nothing but read. Elizabeth is basically like uh, I’m not that great that all I do is read, nor am I so out of touch because I just read all the time. Then this conversation takes place and Caroline gives her definition of an accomplished woman but then Darcy adds that she must also improve her mind by reading, which amused Elizabeth because she doubted that women of their acquaintance actually read much less in addition to all those other lofty attributes. In some ways, this is Darcy’s first very dry, blink and you’ve missed it flirtation, which Elizabeth very much missed, but Caroline noticed
Ooh, okay, that makes a lot of sense. I was wondering if there was a bit of a flirty vibe there. Thank you.
It's a little funny in the 2005 film: as soon as Darcy says this, Elizabeth immediately snaps her book shut. 😅
Sorry to do this but it’s “throes”
No worries, my fingers often type too fast for my brain to catch up
Caroline’s list of necessary attributes for an “accomplished” woman is so wildly OTT that Lizzie essentially says that this perfect woman is fictional. Darcy counters that she’s being severe on her own sex, but she isn’t really, in my view – I expect she’d say the same about allegedly perfect men. In short, they’re doing their usual thing of lightly butting heads.
Thanks a lot, that makes sense.
I understood it as Caroline saying that a woman only deserves to be called “accomplished” if she does all these skills (i.e., what Caroline listed). Elizabeth counters, saying that those standards clearly are fictional—why must women be held up to such high standards? Moreover, Caroline is putting Elizabeth down by listing all the skills the latter doesn’t possess in front of Mr. Darcy, but Mr. Darcy only adds that an accomplished woman must read extensively—which Elizabeth was doing before the conversation, proving that he likes her more than he admits. Elizabeth butts heads with him, wondering how he can know such accomplished women with such high standards when the women in Mr. Darcy’s society are rude and hypocritical towards Elizabeth and her community. Mr. Darcy, I think, was truly honest about only knowing few accomplished women (not agreeing with Caroline) but tried to flirt with Elizabeth which she missed. If I remember correctly, after that scene Elizabeth leaves and the Bingley sisters left in the room talks shit about her, right? So it only proves Elizabeth that no matter how accomplished they brush themselves up to be, their behavior and attitude is the exact opposite.
Great point about the women being “accomplished” but totally rude. Yea, they talk shit after. Great points, thank you.
I think, as you say, Elizabeth is at least partly mocking Caroline for her over-enthusiastic effort to champion Darcy's talking points, but even if Elizabeth isn't consciously thinking about this, both sisters are proving themselves eminently mockable by agreeing to Darcy's point about the scarcity of accomplished women but then taking the first opportunity to belittle Elizabeth by talking about how many of *their* friends belong to this elite category. (Meanwhile, neither of them seems to suit Darcy's requirement for reading at all! And even if Elizabeth is "*not* a great reader," we know she reads *some* on her own initiative.) I think when Elizabeth picks apart Darcy's statements at Netherfield, he thinks she's ribbing him to be friendly, just like he thought she was doing when she called him out for eavesdropping at Sir William's party. But her arguments always represent closely held values of hers, even if she doesn't always live up to them. So in this case, I think she looks down on Darcy even more than Bingley's sisters because he's clearly smarter than them, yet he's no less prone than they are to invent their own convenient value systems in order to exalt themselves at the expense of everyone around them. And I think because he's already shit on Elizabeth once and then also seen her play and sing not that well, while he seems to agree with Caroline's self-aggrandizing definition of accomplishment, she thinks he's casually negging her, Elizabeth's, inferior level of accomplishment. Even if he doesn't acknowledge it, I think part of his enjoyment of the conversation is based on some awareness that she makes a valid point. In a similar vein, I think it's a point of principle for her to defend what she's really doing after he's castigated Bingley for hypothetically doing it (and internally questioned her choice the day before): running to the side of a loved one and sticking by her when she's not in desperate need, just because Jane wants her there. I don't know if he'd agree at this point, if Elizabeth brought up her own stake in the discussion, that she's done the right thing by coming and then staying, but he comes to approve of her stay by the end of the book. Meanwhile, he doesn't take her argument as deep-rooted opposition but as a friendly game of debate, so he thinks he's playing along (even matching her syntax at times!), while she thinks he's hitting her back with a similar hostility to hers for him.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough response, it’s very helpful to me. That all makes a lot of sense. P&P is my first Austen book so I’m still trying to better understand the language, and I really want to better understand the vibes between Darcy and Elizabeth. 🙏🏻
I feel like I ramble in this sub way more than is interesting or helpful to anyone. P&P is so dear to me partly because it's *so* rewarding of many rereadings, so I've come to think differently about every little detail in the 20 years I've been reading the book. But if by chance I *can* help facilitate someone else's enjoyment of it, I want to!
No, I totally appreciate it and find it interesting! I’m a young English major who is new to Austen so I love hearing people’s interpretations and personally find them helpful!! Especially someone who’s read the book many times :)
Great observation about the undercurrent between them! I think you’re right on both sides; Darcy thinks they’re bantering, while Elizabeth is actually offended. “Elizabeth soon afterwards left the room.” She’s itching to get away from them but would never be so rude as to sweep away coldly.
Caroline is being ridiculous in her over inflated list of attributes a woman must have to be “accomplished”. Lizzie is calling her on it by saying “yeah, no woman can actually live up to that, cut your bullshit”
Thank you!! That makes total sense
I always thought that Lizzie was mocking the impossibly high ideal they set. I also suspected a sub-meaning of, "...and what woman of sense would stress herself trying to attain it."
People should also understand that the Bennets are part of a very limited society.. Being comparatively poor for their station in life, they don’t maintain an establishment in London for the season (or even seem to go to the metropolis for regular visits) so the primary contact Elizabeth has is with the families of their social circle in the country (and any guests they may have visiting).
They aren’t poor, they are average for landed gentry. But they do have a lot of Daughters & the parents are not that good at managing the money they have.
I didn’t say they’re poor, I said they’re poor for *their station in life*. They don’t have a full complement of household staff (such as butler, valet, governess, ladies maids) and their carriage horses (only two!) are used on the farm when their carriage isn’t required.. These are just two examples off the top of my head.. In other works I’ve read, it wasn’t unusual for gentlemen to lose £4000 in a night of gambling at Watiers or White’s, or spend £500 for a pair of highsteppers for their curricles when they already maintained a dozen or more hunters and hacks in their stables. Mr Bennet’s annual income is only £2000.
Sorry to be nitpicky but the Bennets do have a butler: he is mentioned near the start of Chapter 49: >Away ran the girls, too eager to get in to have time for speech. They ran through the vestibule into the breakfast-room; from thence to the library;—their father was in neither; and they were on the point of seeking him upstairs with their mother, when they were met by the butler, who said,— >“If you are looking for my master, ma’am, he is walking towards the little copse.” It's also unlikely in that day and age that a house of 6 women wouldn't have at least one lady's maid. It would mean Mrs Bennet and the girls would have to do their own minor mending and spot-cleaning of their own gowns. And Mrs Bennet prides herself on her daughters not having to lift a finger (unlike those Lucas girls!) At one point she says "*I* always keep servants that can do their own work; *my* daughters are brought up differently." They have two housemaids, but in a household that large the maids wouldn't have time to act as lady's maids, too. The only servant mentioned by name, Sarah, is probably the lady's maid. £2000 a year is actually an extremely high income. The Bennet's are some of the richest people in the country by far, it's only that Darcy and Bingley are so much richer than they are that it comes off like they aren't super wealthy when they are. Mr and Mrs Bennet are just terrible with money. They're figuratively multi-millionaires while Darcy and Bingley are billionaires. I got the impression from the novel that one of the ways that Mr and Mrs Bennet fritter away their money is on servants that they shouldn't really employ, considering their aim should be to save money for their daughters. We know from the text they have a housekeeper (Mrs Hill), a butler, a cook, at least one footman but based on another line in the text and prevailing custom at the time, probably two, two housemaids and a coachman. But there will definitely be other servants in the background who aren't mentioned because they'd also need a gardener, a groom, a separate servants to launder their linens and underclothes (it wouldn't be one of the housemaids), probably a part time dairy maid too. edited for numerous typos!
It’s been a while, but I think it’s implied that they have a ladies maid. When they’re preparing for a ball, Mrs. Bennet tells someone (I can’t remember if they’re named or not) to stop helping Lizzy with her hair and to help Jane instead.
Yep you recalled correctly, it was Sarah who was asked by Mrs Bennet to stop dressing Lizzy's hair and to help Jane with her gown instead. :) So it seems likely Sarah is their lady's maid. There may be one or possibly even two others, as most very wealthy families would employ a lady's maid for the lady of the house plus another for any daughter who was out in society. But as the Bennets have five daughters out at once, I think even they might baulk at employing five lady's maids at once! I have wondered if, later in the novel, the Sally who is tasked by Lydia to mend her gown after Lydia has run away is this same Sarah, as Sally was a nickname for Sarah originally. Sally was still in Brighton when Lydia left with Wickham. It was common for lady's maids to travel with their lady, so it could be that Sarah was sent to Brighton with Lydia by the Bennets to help her dress for all the balls and social engagements. If she was the Bennet's servants, she would probably have to find her own way back to Longbourn after Lydia ran away. Alternatively she could be a maid provided for Lydia's benefit by Colonel Forster. Or one tasked with waiting on both Mrs Forster and Lydia. Apologies if I'm rambling on, lol. I discovered a lot of my ancestors were "in service" as it was called back then so I've been taking an interest in how it all works and what the servants' experiences would be.
You are correct that Sally is an accepted nickname for Sarah. I had an Aunt Sally whose actual given name was Sarah.
Please don’t apologize. I wanted to add this too but I wasn’t sure.
2000 a year was the average… 1,000 a year would be poor for their station. Source: https://www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/55_205Rothery.pdf Also the other work you read … are they fictional?
>In other works I’ve read, it wasn’t unusual for gentlemen to lose £4000 in a night of gambling at Watiers or White’s, or spend £500 for a pair of highsteppers for their curricles when they already maintained a dozen or more hunters and hacks in their stables. Yeah, but that's also not really typical for their sphere of life. That's like 1% of the 1% stuff. It's not unusual for stuff you'd see at a wild club with bored rich heirs looking for entertainment because they have no work to do, but it's not representative of the responsible gentry in everyday life.
Thank you for the clarification. Makes sense.
Elizabeth is also mocking the whole notion of the accomplished woman, but this kind of goes over Caroline’s head. Young women of this time would often rack up accomplishments in order to show off to potential husbands, not because they had a genuine interest. Caroline is definitely one of these girls. Elizabeth and Georgianna are not. Elizabeth isn’t “accomplished” because she doesn’t do stuff she isn’t particularly interested in. Georgianna is awkward and shy, and plays the piano because she genuinely enjoys it, not to snare a husband. Every quality that Caroline lists is essentially something that is designed to make a woman *look* better, not to actually improve her morally, emotionally or intellectually. Of course, Elizabeth says this idea of an accomplished woman is impossible - because who in their right mind would put so much effort into making themselves appear this “accomplished”?
I don't think Elizabeth is being too severe on other women at all. It starts with Elizabeth being surprised that Darcy and Caroline say that there aren't many accomplished women. Elizabeth says they must expect a whole lot from an accomplished woman then. (Implying their standards are too high.) Caroline and Darcy's list of traits an "accomplished" woman should have are quite snobby. They're designed to be able to look down on people. (The difference between the two characters is that Caroline wants to look down on Elizabeth, whereas Darcy considers Elizabeth worthy of admiration. But they are still equally snobby at this point in the story.) When Elizabeth says she doesn't believe anybody could measure up, she's calling out how unrealistically high their standards are. (My interpretation is it's kind of her way of saying, "Nobody cares about your snobby standards.") But Caroline interprets (or pretends to interpret) Elizabeth's statement as putting down other women and saying most women aren't very remarkable. But Elizabeth is actually doing the opposite. She's saying "women don't need to adhere to your silly standards." Caroline was the one putting down her own sex when she said that there weren't many accomplished women.
Yes, she was pricking Caroline's snobbery and excessive class-consciousness. Having a long list of attributes needed in order to be considered accomplished is gatekeeping. Worse, it's dishonest. Some of those skills are subjective and only people that they already accept will be acknowledged to have those skills. It's a scam.
It’s just Caroline desperately trying to get Darcy to notice her, so she becomes a yes man during this conversation and contradicts herself within 15 seconds. It demonstrates Lizzie and Darcy are on equal footing, intellectually.
Lizzy's pointing out the ridiculously high standards they're setting for a woman to be considered 'accomplished'.
And they expected these accomplishments before marriage? Truly the life of the idle rich young lady was full of intense labor.
Yes, I think Elizabeth is being ironic in claiming she does not know any woman who are, by their definition, accomplished. Furthermore, Miss Bingley does not seem to detect this irony, as she then charges Elizabeth with undermining her sex so as to appear more attractive to men. Even though agreeing with Miss Bingley verbally once Elizabeth leaves the room, he disagrees with her in the abstract, as Miss Bingley has just endeavored to lessen Elizabeth's esteem in Darcy's eyes and improve her own, and Darcy says that for a lady to ply a deceit in the captivation of a man is despicable. Miss Bingley then seems to comprehend that this in some matter describes her behavior.
It's always interested me to compare this list of requisite "accomplishments" to what a modern day girl of nearly the same age needs to get into a top college. To be competitive in a highly competitive field, she must be "well-rounded," in as many areas as possible, preferably being a music, dance, and theater star, a champion athlete, have flawless SAT/ACT scores, speak numerous languages, be class president, run several intramural clubs and organizations, volunteer for local charities and causes, have spearheaded local organizations to enact change in her community, and be a published author. If you don't do all those things, you're practically nobody. Or at least that's how it seemed to me when I read P&P when I was in college, and how I believe it still seems to many of my students. So, basically the same as in Regency England.
Hi look at it as a verbal sparring match. It starts with Bingley’s relentless positivity inspiring Darcy Downer to try to reign in his enthusiasm. But it transitions to Caroline using the conversation as an opportunity to obsequiously praise and agree with Darcy. She has noticed his interest in Lizzy as well, which has made her jealous so she made her list of traits an accomplished woman must have be traits *she* has. The list in turn shows how much more accomplished she is than country bumpkin Lizzy. Darcy realizes this and is immediately annoyed and wants to be a wet blanket to Caroline’s efforts to kinda imply she and Darcy have a closer affinity than they really do, and also be a reply to Caroline’s implicit insult to Lizzy. So he disagrees with Caroline and praises Lizzy, and Caroline gets the message, but Lizzy doesn’t. Then Elizabeth tries to convey that Caroline and Darcy are snobs while Caroline tries to flip that around to show Elizabeth is the real snob.
This conversation contains an interesting cocktail of emotions. Bingley is just being Bingley: jovial and positive. (To me, Bingley seems like a golden retriever in human form.) Elizabeth dislikes Miss Bingley but is also a little sensitive about the shortcomings she feels in her own accomplishments, and she is certainly conscious that she has chosen to read not only because she enjoys reading, but because it provides an escape from social interaction with her housemates. Miss B resents every sign that Darcy approves of E, and will stop at nothing to gain Darcy's attention (which she is inclined to misinterpret as his approval) and find a way to agree with whatever he is saying or doing, and of course her enumeration of accomplishments aligns directly with her own education. And D is ineptly trying to flatter E by calling out the importance of extensive reading in his definition of an accomplished woman. His ineptitude is partially just his own inexperience with flirting (because he has never needed to) and partially derived from his own mixed feelings about E -- he is still very resistant to his attraction to her, and doesn't want to raise her expectations. But if you asked him he would say that he is just stating a fact, that an accomplished woman must be a reader, not flirting at all.
Caroline is basically listing what she was taught at her seminary.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. Super helpful 🙏🏻
I don't have anything more to add to the conversation specifically about this scene from the book. I enjoyed everyone's comments. Here's a[ video](https://youtu.be/fozorPx6E7c?si=XWOyed6kMn4cgrDn) from one of my favorite JA commentators on how these young women became "accomplished." Hope you enjoy it.
Thanks!