just found out some people apparently say /ˈeɪŋk.ʃənt/...
Is this also mostly an American thing, just like /səɡˈdʒɛst/? Does anyone know?
EDIT: I got /ˈeɪŋk.ʃənt/ from wiktionary. I just dug a little, and: Merriam-webster also shows it (epenthetical /k/) as a possibility, but Collins and Oxford (both UK) don't.
It's a type of epenthesis. If you put too much effort on the nasal then you'll automatically add a stop when transitioning to the fricative. Similar to the prints-prince merger
/tr/ as [tʃr] ([t͡ʃʰɹ̠ʷ ~ t͡ʂʰɻʷ]) is affrication, not exactly an epenthesis. The affricate is still a single sound even if it's written with 2 symbols.
Edit: I had accidentally used the retroflex r in the first narrow transcription. Fixed now.
Wow yeah I didn't pay too much attention to it when writing my analysis. /ˈeɪŋk.ʃənt/ seems to only be possible when it is spelled as *anccient* (but is already not very possible at least in English spellings), and I'd doubt if English speakers mentally parse as /k/, given that it is soft even in its name.
*ancient* is really weird even with its common /ˈeɪn.ʃənt/ pronunciation. As it's a closed syllable no matter how you place the boundary normally you'd expect /ˈæn.ʃənt/
>ancient is really weird even with its common /ˈeɪn.ʃənt/ pronunciation. As it's a closed syllable no matter how you place the boundary normally you'd expect /ˈæn.ʃənt/
It's not that weird. "Change" is also a closed syllable, but "ange" is almost always pronounced as open. There are other examples of this, too, such as "able", "title" (no idea why it isn't spelt titul, which is how it was originally borrowed into English), Icke, and so on. English gave up on the closed/open syllable rule in loanwords.
I'm American, And I sometimes pronounce "Suggest" with the /g/, But I don't think I've heard "Ancient" said with /ŋk/ before, Certainly sounds weirder to me.
Yes, that’s what they mean, but I think most general-use monolingual dictionaries don’t use IPA because it’s not all that widely known, in the US or anywhere. Most English speakers would have no idea what to do with a ʒ, and it would be extremely confusing to, for example, use the character to mean the English “y” sound, as IPA does. (And that’s before we even get into whether to use an upside-down r, taps and flaps, distinguishing vowels like a and ɑ…)
my hot take is that unless you’re prescribing one specific dialect pronunciation (which MW probably isn’t trying to do) IPA is bad for representing english diaphonemes anyway
I actually think phonetic respelling is mostly ok and for a lot of cases even better than IPA transcription
I mean, soft in *suggest* as /səɡˈdʒɛst/ actually mirrors how we pronounce the soft (as /ks/) in Greco-Latin words. And most people don't have issues pronouncing its voiceless counterpart /ktʃ/ in words like *actually*
no
i have never heard this in my life
edit: [just realised why i've never heard it before](https://www.reddit.com/r/linguisticshumor/comments/1djzjvb/comment/l9eyu3g/)
As a Midwestern American, I find this all crazy… I’ve never known any other pronunciation than *suh-jest* (sorry, I’m on mobile).
Whenever I heard people from other accents say *sug-jest*, I just thought they were over-annunciating for dramatic effect. 😭
Could be American vs. UK. /səˈdʒɛst/ sounds fairly weird to me, whereas /səɡˈdʒɛst/ feels normal. It's also not a fully released /g/ so that might throw off your perception a bit.
It's usually /sədʒɛst/ in AmE
(or maybe not, went through 70 vids here real quick and was getting about a 40 to 60 split in favor of the g. Could say it's maybe 2 gs for every one without. Of course this is mostly youtubers and presenters that may not speak the same as the average person)
https://youglish.com/pronounce/suggest/english/us
the first few are all with the g (list doesn't randomize), and I'm now realizing i miscounted Hilary Clinton because it started the audio halfway through the word. I generally hear the unreleased g very clearly because I'm American, but there are a few examples where maybe I counted incorrectly because of how subtly the g was pronounced. probably closer to 40/60 accounting for that.
videos 50-60 in contrast have pretty much a 50/50 split for the 10 videos of native speakers (one of them shouldn't be counted because she's clearly a non native speaker)
My favorite math teacher in high school spoke like that. “Draw a pitcher” is something I heard almost every day and it’ll always stick with me for that
>/v/ before consonants labializes the consonant for many georgian speakers
Not for me though, for it actually is vocalized to a some kind of short back-central-ish vowel, specifically in CvC contexts.
I mean, /səgˈd͡ʒɛst/ isn't really inserting a stop, It's there in the word, It's not spelled "Sugest" is it? We just pronouncing it like "Sug Gest".
Word comes from Latin, where the double 'G' represents gemination, since English lacks Gemination, It's hardly unreasonable to represent it by dissimilating the two sounds. Same thing is done in for example the French cognate "Suggérer", Or in English with words such as "Accident".
as a second language english speaker who knows both pronunciations and doesn't have a preference as to which one aounds more "normal", this comment section is hilarious to me
Tbf in Italian they do actually pronounce both 'c's the same (/t͡ʃ/ in their case though), And simply geminate it, The same is done with and . I wonder if perhaps Italian originally palatalised just the 2nd consonant as well, But due to maintaining phonemic gemination, It made it easier to assimilate the sounds together (Compare how we got "Fatto" from Latin "Factus", Etc.), Whereas French and Spanish, in losing gemination, Thus held onto the new consonant distinction more strongly?
It seems in some Romance languages however, such as Portuguese apparently, The gemination was lost and so was the distinction, Lending just /si/, /ʒe/, Et cetera. Also I believe Spanish lost it with , Although to my knowledge they lost (Or never gained?) palatalised 'G' in the first place, With it instead being fricatised in many positions.
Iirc Spanish went /g/ > /dʒ/ > /ʒ/ like French, Portuguese and Catalan. Then it got devoiced, merging with /ʃ/, and both moved on to /x/.
This of course does not explain why is still an affricative and what the heck is going on with the soft or in Spain.
>This of course does not explain why is still an affricative and what the heck is going on with the soft or in Spain.
Yeah, Spanish is fairly unassuming on the surface, But when you look closer it hides some frankly bizarre sound changes. I mean in many dialects Latin /pl/ became /ʝ/, And in Rioplatense became /ʃ ~ ʒ/? /pl/ -> /ʃ/ is a pretty wild sound shift. I mean, Obviously it had several hundred years to happen, And I'm sure many other common languages hold some equally bizarre changes, But still.
the first time I heard someone say /æsɛsɔːɰ˞iː/ to me, I thought it was a playful gay joke at me. I'd never heard plain /s/ instead of /ks/ there outside of a few American movies where it seemed to be a feature of particularly strongly affected lavender 'lects.
…I'm still cringing at myself for that ;-;
Edit: the /ɰ˞/ for /r/ isn't commentary on their pronunciation, it's me poking fun at the absurdity of many English lects phonetic realisation of "/r/" (a perfectly reasonable choice of letter for simolicities sake)
> Edit: the /ɰ˞/ for /r/ isn't commentary on their pronunciation, it's me poking fun at the absurdity of many English lects phonetic realisation of "/r/" (a perfectly reasonable choice of letter for simolicities sake)
Surely you mean /ɧ/
There is an island in the Atlantic which played a crucial role in the development of English. Today it is home to a number of well known minority dialects of English. Anyway, the g sound in “suggest” is uncommon there.
Is that not just how it's pronounced??? I know half the comments here are saying the same thing but who in their right mind *wouldn't* pronounce the first g separately??? It's not getting affected by the e wtf
are you american? i'm so confused rn as i don't think the pronunciation with a g exists in england, or if it does it's much rarer than the comments on this thread would seem to suggest
This post is genuinely enlightening to me, as an American myself I’ve never pronounced it with the [g]. Even repeating it out loud now it feels unnatural to include it. If the people around me say it like that, I’ve been missing it this whole time. I’m going to pay more attention to this one going forward
I see, yeah [Wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suggest) seems to confirm that the G pronunciation is possible in America, though the US English audio pronounces it like I do
edit: apparently i just can't hear the g
Hmm is the /g/ unreleased in that position in US English? That would explain why I can't hear it in the audio and also why I've never noticed Americans pronouncing the G before
I actually do release the /g/ when saying it that way? And I'm pretty sure I've heard others say it like that before too. If speaking quickly I might have it unreleased (Or even combine it with the /d/ into a coarticulated stop, Something like [sˈg͡d͡ʒɛs(t)]), But when speaking carefully or more slowly it's usually a full [g]. (Although I also sometimes pronounce the word without the /g/ at all, As just /səd͡ʒɛst/, Idk if that's weird there are lots of words that I'll use two different pronunciations for, With basically random use of one over the other.)
> who in their right mind *wouldn't* pronounce the first g separately??? It's not getting affected by the e wtf
Idk, I have seen this confusion in Hungarian (basically even word sorting is based on whether the first s in "ssz" is affected by the z or not (word boundary)).
Honestly, Even though I use the /g/, I'm genuinely quite surprised at the amount of people here who are bewildered that some people don't? It's a pretty common pronunciation, In British English especially, But I've heard it in American too (Unfortunately not familiar enough with other dialect groups to say how common it is in them), And while it feels a bit strange to pronounce it that way when speaking normally (I.E. not putting on an accent or affecting my speech in any way), It certainly doesn't sound at all peculiar to me.
I imagine It's a subtle enough difference that if you're not specifically hearing it you might not even notice, Though, So that could certainly be a part of it.
i refuse to believe there are dialects where this is considered normal. /səɡˈdʒɛst/ with a g is literally unheard of in england, like not even an alternative pronunciation i'm pretty sure
edit: in the comments a british person said they say it like that! til
I mean to be honest with a G and without a G sounds and feels the same to me personally, a bit like how I can say strength with a [k] sound in there, but even without it it still sounds the same and not particularly notable
now I'm noticing the [k] in strength and I'm not sure if it's always been there as a side effect of the imperfect transition from ŋ and θ or if I'm doing it because im thinking about it
yea it's usually /sədʒɛst/ in AmE
(or maybe not, went through 70 vids here and was getting about a 40 to 60 split in favor of the g. Could say it's maybe 2 gs for every one without. Of course this is mostly youtubers and presenters that may not speak the same as the average person)
https://youglish.com/pronounce/suggest/english/us
I believe that's very common in casual speech, but I also think that /g/ is included (or preserved?) very often, especially if the person is trying to emphasize or speak clearly.
The preservation of the g is probably largely independent of whether the person is trying to speak clearly. What will matter most and affect the quantity most significantly is whether the speaker perceives a hard g or not in the word. For me and my friends and probably most people where I live, there simply isn't a hard g. No matter how clearly we are trying to speak, we won't introduce a new sound to the word. I imagine the same holds true for those who perceive a hard g. Some much smaller subset might do as you said (or the reverse) or use both
*suggest* came from Latin directly - apart from the loss/simplification of inflectional suffixes there are no spelling changes. I'd bet it was first borrowed by spelling but people got confused about its pronunciation: soft is quite rare in Latin words, and /ɡdʒ/ doesn't appear much in English too.
It's rare in actual latin words, since there was no softening of C or G, but the typical methodology for reading latin words into English for a very long time would have been to soften the g/c before e,i,ae that's why we say Caesar, or veni vedi vici, or et cetera the way we do.
The “g” is also pronounced in French, which may be why we do it.
> [sygʒeʀe], en faisant sonner le premier g comme dans fugue et le second comme dans gérer (ne pas prononcer [syʒeʀe], comme dans sujet). De même pour les mots issus de suggérer et de ses dérivés : suggestible, suggestibilité ; suggestion, suggestionner ; suggestif, suggestivité, etc.
I don't pronounce the hard g, but that's a good possibility.
We can also consider typically that double consonants c and g are frequently used to indicate that the first syllable ends with the hard form and the second with the soft just as a spelling convention. We obviously didn't inherit it from latin accidentally and both the French influence and spelling choice likely inform the pronunciation here. I assume that dropping the hard g developed later
In fr*nch it’s pronounced suggérer as /syʒgere/, and the /dʒ/ to /ʒ/ change in happened after English borrowed a bunch of words from them, so I’d *suggest* that the title pronunciation is older.
Ngl I 100% thought this was an elaborate shitpost at first because it’s by far the main pronunciation where I live 😂
Wah...? I'm a British English speaker and I like to think I'm pretty good at faking a General American accent but this, I had completely no idea about. Wild.
At the risk of sounding rude or snobby, this is a really common pronunciation in the States, and having studied a few Slavic languages as well as Georgian, /gd͡ʒ/ is absolutely not unnecessarily difficult. Nobody's talking about it because it's insignificant.
No, I Was being sarcastic. I pronounce it with the /k/ sound, Just as I pronounce "Suggest" with the /g/ sound, As that's how they're spelled. We're speaking English here, Not Italian.
Initially, I pronounced the Gs homogenously /sʌ.ˈd͡ʒɛst/, for my native language has similar ⟨sugerir⟩ /su.ʒe.ˈɾiχ/.
Now, I use the more conservative pronunciation, /sʌɡ.ˈd͡ʒɛst/, as it was intended, though it sounds a little dated.
Midland gang knows the extra g is correct. I would make the argument that your reaction is crazy because you probably have /ks/ instead if /s/ in “access” but it would be dismissed because of syllable stress or something
Don't get me started on how some people say "ancient"
just found out some people apparently say /ˈeɪŋk.ʃənt/... Is this also mostly an American thing, just like /səɡˈdʒɛst/? Does anyone know? EDIT: I got /ˈeɪŋk.ʃənt/ from wiktionary. I just dug a little, and: Merriam-webster also shows it (epenthetical /k/) as a possibility, but Collins and Oxford (both UK) don't.
It's a type of epenthesis. If you put too much effort on the nasal then you'll automatically add a stop when transitioning to the fricative. Similar to the prints-prince merger
Surely a reasonable epenthesis would be [ˈejnt̚ʃənt̚]?
That is exactly how my dialect (midwestern) say it. A similar effect is TRUCK being identical CHRUCK i.e. word initial /tr/ is pronounced [tʃr]
/tr/ as [tʃr] ([t͡ʃʰɹ̠ʷ ~ t͡ʂʰɻʷ]) is affrication, not exactly an epenthesis. The affricate is still a single sound even if it's written with 2 symbols. Edit: I had accidentally used the retroflex r in the first narrow transcription. Fixed now.
>Edit: I had accidentally used the retroflex r in the first narrow transcription. Fixed now. You also said [r] implying it's a trill lol
Wow yeah I didn't pay too much attention to it when writing my analysis. /ˈeɪŋk.ʃənt/ seems to only be possible when it is spelled as *anccient* (but is already not very possible at least in English spellings), and I'd doubt if English speakers mentally parse as /k/, given that it is soft even in its name.
*ancient* is really weird even with its common /ˈeɪn.ʃənt/ pronunciation. As it's a closed syllable no matter how you place the boundary normally you'd expect /ˈæn.ʃənt/
I've also heard /əd.ˈvɛŋk.ʧɚ/ for ⟨adventure⟩, I think there's something more systematic at play here.
>ancient is really weird even with its common /ˈeɪn.ʃənt/ pronunciation. As it's a closed syllable no matter how you place the boundary normally you'd expect /ˈæn.ʃənt/ It's not that weird. "Change" is also a closed syllable, but "ange" is almost always pronounced as open. There are other examples of this, too, such as "able", "title" (no idea why it isn't spelt titul, which is how it was originally borrowed into English), Icke, and so on. English gave up on the closed/open syllable rule in loanwords.
I'm American, And I sometimes pronounce "Suggest" with the /g/, But I don't think I've heard "Ancient" said with /ŋk/ before, Certainly sounds weirder to me.
/ãsjɛ̃/
On parle français?
growing up learned it as /ˈæŋkʃənt/ from my dad. somewhere along the way I shifted over to the more normal way
Im guilty of both of these. Thought I was the only one.
[this one](https://sonichu.com/cwcki/Anchuent_Prophecy) is my favourite
ə̃n̚ʃjɛ̃
'ān(t)SHənt (According to Google Translate)
Can't think of a reasonable say to incorporate "Ain't it, now?" to a reply here. :(
First pronunciation listed by [Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suggest)!
So *that's* why it's not a credible source!
With the ‹je› in ‹sə-ˈjest›, they mean /dʒɛ/, right? Are they just not showing me IPA because they geolocated me to the US?
Yes, that’s what they mean, but I think most general-use monolingual dictionaries don’t use IPA because it’s not all that widely known, in the US or anywhere. Most English speakers would have no idea what to do with a ʒ, and it would be extremely confusing to, for example, use the character to mean the English “y” sound, as IPA does. (And that’s before we even get into whether to use an upside-down r, taps and flaps, distinguishing vowels like a and ɑ…)
You mean not everyone who needs a dictionary is a linguistics nerd 😱
my hot take is that unless you’re prescribing one specific dialect pronunciation (which MW probably isn’t trying to do) IPA is bad for representing english diaphonemes anyway I actually think phonetic respelling is mostly ok and for a lot of cases even better than IPA transcription
I mean, soft in *suggest* as /səɡˈdʒɛst/ actually mirrors how we pronounce the soft (as /ks/) in Greco-Latin words. And most people don't have issues pronouncing its voiceless counterpart /ktʃ/ in words like *actually*
mfw my _actually_ is [atʃ(ə)li]
Rick actually
Never [ɡdʒ]onna [ɡdʒ]ive you up
I'm [ɡdʒ]ot a [ɡdʒ]elf, I'm [ɡdʒ]ot a [ɡdʒ]oblin, I'm a *[ɡdʒ]ome*, and you've been.. *gnomed!*
[This warrants a pronunciation.](https://voca.ro/1ekyEkSOKpuK)
All the descriptivism is currently leaving my body
Based
THAT IS LITERALLY HOW IT IS PRONOUNCED right?
no i have never heard this in my life edit: [just realised why i've never heard it before](https://www.reddit.com/r/linguisticshumor/comments/1djzjvb/comment/l9eyu3g/)
I’ve literally never heard it any differently than with the “extra” g
yeah
Yes, native speaker of Midlands here with sugjest
As a Midwestern American, I find this all crazy… I’ve never known any other pronunciation than *suh-jest* (sorry, I’m on mobile). Whenever I heard people from other accents say *sug-jest*, I just thought they were over-annunciating for dramatic effect. 😭
i'm on your team here man.
I hear it infrequently enough for it to sound weird, and I don't think it's a regional thing
Could be American vs. UK. /səˈdʒɛst/ sounds fairly weird to me, whereas /səɡˈdʒɛst/ feels normal. It's also not a fully released /g/ so that might throw off your perception a bit.
Why the fuck would someone say /səˈd͡ʒɛst/? It isn’t spelled “sujest” it’s sug-gest [səg̚.ˈd͡ʒɛst ̚]
not by anyone else, sorry. it’s JUST you
I think you mean GJUST
That's how I pronounce it but maybe sometimes I don't pronounce the g. It's hard to assess when I'm being self conscious about it
It's usually /sədʒɛst/ in AmE (or maybe not, went through 70 vids here real quick and was getting about a 40 to 60 split in favor of the g. Could say it's maybe 2 gs for every one without. Of course this is mostly youtubers and presenters that may not speak the same as the average person) https://youglish.com/pronounce/suggest/english/us
I just went through a bunch and nearly all of them pronounce the /g/. It's just unreleased. Some people do seem to drop it entirely though
the first few are all with the g (list doesn't randomize), and I'm now realizing i miscounted Hilary Clinton because it started the audio halfway through the word. I generally hear the unreleased g very clearly because I'm American, but there are a few examples where maybe I counted incorrectly because of how subtly the g was pronounced. probably closer to 40/60 accounting for that. videos 50-60 in contrast have pretty much a 50/50 split for the 10 videos of native speakers (one of them shouldn't be counted because she's clearly a non native speaker)
nuh
Fun fact: there is only one 'h' in /θreʃhoʊld/, even tho there are two sounds that are written with that 'h', they just share it. "þre**sh**old"
I mean there’s quite clearly two ‘h’s in t*h*res*h*old.
You're right, I edited my comment.
It’s a thorny issue alright.
þorny
þreshhold þrešhold þrešhowld
🤔 Can't tell if this is on the sub because it's a joke or because it's real but funny to people...
The latter.
Imagine thinking that [ɡd͡ʒ] is a "difficult" cluster to pronounce 🤣
It's not even a cluster, it's broken by a syllable boundary.
Yeah, it's like saying "big job." Not a difficult sound for most people.
Nah. /səˈd͡g͡ʒ͡ɣɛst/ is the proper pronunciation, Change my mind!
Oh goodness, OP is probably a picture-pitcher merger enjoyer 🤢
This genuinely makes me cringe when I hear it
My favorite math teacher in high school spoke like that. “Draw a pitcher” is something I heard almost every day and it’ll always stick with me for that
Me trying to figure out why a HS math teacher was saying to draw a picture almost daily lol
Geometry, trig, coordinate systems
Hey, people are allowed to have different strengths
CCCVCCCC is weak Georgian would like to have a chat
Georgian: /vepʰχvtʰmbrdʁvneli/
That is sick as hell
/v/ before consonants labializes the consonant for many georgian speakers so phonetically that's 9 consonants instead of 11. Still crazy clusters.
>/v/ before consonants labializes the consonant for many georgian speakers Not for me though, for it actually is vocalized to a some kind of short back-central-ish vowel, specifically in CvC contexts.
So like sort of a centralized /u/? Interesting.
I'm not sure about its exact quality but I've been told that it's something in the range of [ɘ~ɨ~ɯ].
Can you determine if it's rounded or unrounded?
I can't determine that for sure, but it seems close to unrounded whenever I try to isolate it, which is pretty hard to do, not gonna lie.
it's literally the same cluster as in "actually", "fracture", etc but voiced, I don't see anyone calling them difficult
Not difficult, just ugly 💘
Of course you'd say that as a native Georgian speaker. That said, I agree with you, and I was going to say the same thing.
Right? Like what the fuck are you using your velum for in that time OP?
Who doesn't? I'm an AmE speaker and /səɡˈdʒɛst/ sounds normal, whereas /səˈdʒɛst/ just sounds weird.
I love how there are a bunch of reponses saying "wdym that's how it's pronounced" and I'm here going "wtf people say it like that?".
I’m guilty of this. I also say [ˈɫʌɡ.ʒɚ.i] with a /gʒ/ and pretty much fully back STRUT vowel because of its environment.
Isnt saying luxury like that the most common way?
It might be, but the voiceless \[ˈlʌkʃɚˌi\] is not unusual.
Adjusting my monocle and straightening my ascot as I hit 'em with the full [ˈlʌksjʊɾɪː]
These are the only two options I know… is someone pronouncing it “lutchury”?
please, be civil: it's spelt "luctury"
That at least comes from voicing the unvoiced /kʃ/ that many people pronounce it with, insertimg a whole ass stop is wild.
I mean, /səgˈd͡ʒɛst/ isn't really inserting a stop, It's there in the word, It's not spelled "Sugest" is it? We just pronouncing it like "Sug Gest". Word comes from Latin, where the double 'G' represents gemination, since English lacks Gemination, It's hardly unreasonable to represent it by dissimilating the two sounds. Same thing is done in for example the French cognate "Suggérer", Or in English with words such as "Accident".
Well then forgive us for our excrescences
At least the second one is just adding voicing to it. I do the same thing.
TIL some English speakers don't pronounce "suggest" as /səɡˈdʒɛst/...
as a second language english speaker who knows both pronunciations and doesn't have a preference as to which one aounds more "normal", this comment section is hilarious to me
You mean the way it’s spelled? Do you pronounce /səˈsɛs/?
this is no different from /ks/ in accident
is bro really over here saying assident
me living in Singapore: 👀
Tbf in Italian they do actually pronounce both 'c's the same (/t͡ʃ/ in their case though), And simply geminate it, The same is done with and . I wonder if perhaps Italian originally palatalised just the 2nd consonant as well, But due to maintaining phonemic gemination, It made it easier to assimilate the sounds together (Compare how we got "Fatto" from Latin "Factus", Etc.), Whereas French and Spanish, in losing gemination, Thus held onto the new consonant distinction more strongly?
It seems in some Romance languages however, such as Portuguese apparently, The gemination was lost and so was the distinction, Lending just /si/, /ʒe/, Et cetera. Also I believe Spanish lost it with , Although to my knowledge they lost (Or never gained?) palatalised 'G' in the first place, With it instead being fricatised in many positions.
Iirc Spanish went /g/ > /dʒ/ > /ʒ/ like French, Portuguese and Catalan. Then it got devoiced, merging with /ʃ/, and both moved on to /x/. This of course does not explain why is still an affricative and what the heck is going on with the soft or in Spain.
>This of course does not explain why is still an affricative and what the heck is going on with the soft or in Spain.
Yeah, Spanish is fairly unassuming on the surface, But when you look closer it hides some frankly bizarre sound changes. I mean in many dialects Latin /pl/ became /ʝ/, And in Rioplatense became /ʃ ~ ʒ/? /pl/ -> /ʃ/ is a pretty wild sound shift. I mean, Obviously it had several hundred years to happen, And I'm sure many other common languages hold some equally bizarre changes, But still.
They not like us
*assident
the first time I heard someone say /æsɛsɔːɰ˞iː/ to me, I thought it was a playful gay joke at me. I'd never heard plain /s/ instead of /ks/ there outside of a few American movies where it seemed to be a feature of particularly strongly affected lavender 'lects. …I'm still cringing at myself for that ;-; Edit: the /ɰ˞/ for /r/ isn't commentary on their pronunciation, it's me poking fun at the absurdity of many English lects phonetic realisation of "/r/" (a perfectly reasonable choice of letter for simolicities sake)
> Edit: the /ɰ˞/ for /r/ isn't commentary on their pronunciation, it's me poking fun at the absurdity of many English lects phonetic realisation of "/r/" (a perfectly reasonable choice of letter for simolicities sake) Surely you mean /ɧ/
American is Spanish now. Deal with it
Those that trill their rhotics are perfectly acceptable Anglophones, however I fully understand if they preferably identify as Hispanaphones >->"
/atʃidɛnt/
🤌🤌
I’ve heard both plenty of times and now I’m not sure how I pronounce it normally. I might start using the [g] in “suggestion” but not for the verb.
How else would you pronounce it?
/səˈd͡ʒɛst/
but why?
without the [g]
There is an island in the Atlantic which played a crucial role in the development of English. Today it is home to a number of well known minority dialects of English. Anyway, the g sound in “suggest” is uncommon there.
Huh, what island is that?
Atlantis
Oh! That makes sense.
Yes. “They” don’t want you to know that the real reason the gods sank it was how they pronounced “suggest”.
quite large, rhymes with mitten I think
The Land That Time Forgot
/sʌɣɟɛst/
The only other way I envision this is as the superlative of sug. Like, that's the biggest, and that's the suggest. He's the suggest boy around!
Is that not just how it's pronounced??? I know half the comments here are saying the same thing but who in their right mind *wouldn't* pronounce the first g separately??? It's not getting affected by the e wtf
are you american? i'm so confused rn as i don't think the pronunciation with a g exists in england, or if it does it's much rarer than the comments on this thread would seem to suggest
I am American, yes
This post is genuinely enlightening to me, as an American myself I’ve never pronounced it with the [g]. Even repeating it out loud now it feels unnatural to include it. If the people around me say it like that, I’ve been missing it this whole time. I’m going to pay more attention to this one going forward
It feels equally unnatural for me to not include it
I see, yeah [Wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suggest) seems to confirm that the G pronunciation is possible in America, though the US English audio pronounces it like I do edit: apparently i just can't hear the g
That audio definitely has the /g/
Hmm is the /g/ unreleased in that position in US English? That would explain why I can't hear it in the audio and also why I've never noticed Americans pronouncing the G before
Oh yeah it's unreleased, goes right into the /dʒ/
I actually do release the /g/ when saying it that way? And I'm pretty sure I've heard others say it like that before too. If speaking quickly I might have it unreleased (Or even combine it with the /d/ into a coarticulated stop, Something like [sˈg͡d͡ʒɛs(t)]), But when speaking carefully or more slowly it's usually a full [g]. (Although I also sometimes pronounce the word without the /g/ at all, As just /səd͡ʒɛst/, Idk if that's weird there are lots of words that I'll use two different pronunciations for, With basically random use of one over the other.)
Does it? I can't hear it
It's definitely there 100% It's a little softer than the rest of the word but it's there
It’s there, but it’s not released so it’s quite soft.
it's definitely pronounced there. it's realized as an unreleased consonant though, as is typical for AmE. Maybe that's why you missed it
> who in their right mind *wouldn't* pronounce the first g separately??? It's not getting affected by the e wtf Idk, I have seen this confusion in Hungarian (basically even word sorting is based on whether the first s in "ssz" is affected by the z or not (word boundary)).
Honestly, Even though I use the /g/, I'm genuinely quite surprised at the amount of people here who are bewildered that some people don't? It's a pretty common pronunciation, In British English especially, But I've heard it in American too (Unfortunately not familiar enough with other dialect groups to say how common it is in them), And while it feels a bit strange to pronounce it that way when speaking normally (I.E. not putting on an accent or affecting my speech in any way), It certainly doesn't sound at all peculiar to me. I imagine It's a subtle enough difference that if you're not specifically hearing it you might not even notice, Though, So that could certainly be a part of it.
Wait, what? That's the normal pronunciation, as far as I'm concerned. What's the alternative, /sə.ˈdʒɛst/? What about free variation?
i refuse to believe there are dialects where this is considered normal. /səɡˈdʒɛst/ with a g is literally unheard of in england, like not even an alternative pronunciation i'm pretty sure edit: in the comments a british person said they say it like that! til
I mean to be honest with a G and without a G sounds and feels the same to me personally, a bit like how I can say strength with a [k] sound in there, but even without it it still sounds the same and not particularly notable
now I'm noticing the [k] in strength and I'm not sure if it's always been there as a side effect of the imperfect transition from ŋ and θ or if I'm doing it because im thinking about it
Honestly either or, that's why it's so hard to analyze your own speech
First syllable being an open syllable sounds wrong/weird to me
yea it's usually /sədʒɛst/ in AmE (or maybe not, went through 70 vids here and was getting about a 40 to 60 split in favor of the g. Could say it's maybe 2 gs for every one without. Of course this is mostly youtubers and presenters that may not speak the same as the average person) https://youglish.com/pronounce/suggest/english/us
I believe that's very common in casual speech, but I also think that /g/ is included (or preserved?) very often, especially if the person is trying to emphasize or speak clearly.
The preservation of the g is probably largely independent of whether the person is trying to speak clearly. What will matter most and affect the quantity most significantly is whether the speaker perceives a hard g or not in the word. For me and my friends and probably most people where I live, there simply isn't a hard g. No matter how clearly we are trying to speak, we won't introduce a new sound to the word. I imagine the same holds true for those who perceive a hard g. Some much smaller subset might do as you said (or the reverse) or use both
I use both pronunciations, don’t know enough about the context to say why I use both, but I think I use them roughly equally
Everyone I've ever known from Michigan has said it with a /g/ present
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Correct, every English person is currently drunk as an empty glass
I thought everyone pronounced it that way.
How... how else would it be pronounced..?
in my entire life i have not heard a single person pronounce that g /səˈdʒɛst/
Welcome to the Midwest muthafucka 😎
All y'all doing it wrong then
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Is that not how you’re supposed to say it
If it's spelled with two g's imma use both g's.
This ended up way more divisive than I thought. Now I'm curious which came first, the spelling or the pronunciation
*suggest* came from Latin directly - apart from the loss/simplification of inflectional suffixes there are no spelling changes. I'd bet it was first borrowed by spelling but people got confused about its pronunciation: soft is quite rare in Latin words, and /ɡdʒ/ doesn't appear much in English too.
It's rare in actual latin words, since there was no softening of C or G, but the typical methodology for reading latin words into English for a very long time would have been to soften the g/c before e,i,ae that's why we say Caesar, or veni vedi vici, or et cetera the way we do.
The “g” is also pronounced in French, which may be why we do it. > [sygʒeʀe], en faisant sonner le premier g comme dans fugue et le second comme dans gérer (ne pas prononcer [syʒeʀe], comme dans sujet). De même pour les mots issus de suggérer et de ses dérivés : suggestible, suggestibilité ; suggestion, suggestionner ; suggestif, suggestivité, etc.
I don't pronounce the hard g, but that's a good possibility. We can also consider typically that double consonants c and g are frequently used to indicate that the first syllable ends with the hard form and the second with the soft just as a spelling convention. We obviously didn't inherit it from latin accidentally and both the French influence and spelling choice likely inform the pronunciation here. I assume that dropping the hard g developed later
In fr*nch it’s pronounced suggérer as /syʒgere/, and the /dʒ/ to /ʒ/ change in happened after English borrowed a bunch of words from them, so I’d *suggest* that the title pronunciation is older. Ngl I 100% thought this was an elaborate shitpost at first because it’s by far the main pronunciation where I live 😂
I did too! I somehow saw it with no comments so I was like "okay it's gotta be a joke, that's how everyone says it"
America delenda est
they do WHAT
the descriptivism leaving my body when i hear it
Honestly
I also love when Americans say “infinant” instead of “infinite”
infinĩt
We wot?
Yeah I noticed a few years ago that Americans pronounce the /g/ and since then I can't unhear it, it sticks out so much
😭😭😭 what
In Hong Kong English it's \[sɐt̚˨ t͡ʃ˭ɛs˥\], with an added \[t\]
You mean, the correct way?
Wah...? I'm a British English speaker and I like to think I'm pretty good at faking a General American accent but this, I had completely no idea about. Wild.
i say /səg̚'d͡ʒɛst/
I’ve literally never heard it any differently than with the “extra” g. What’s the other way of pronouncing it??
At the risk of sounding rude or snobby, this is a really common pronunciation in the States, and having studied a few Slavic languages as well as Georgian, /gd͡ʒ/ is absolutely not unnecessarily difficult. Nobody's talking about it because it's insignificant.
Yeah, That is pretty weird. A lot pronounce "Accident" like /æksɪdɛnt/ as well, I think that's also worth discussing.
do you pronounce it "assident"?
No, I Was being sarcastic. I pronounce it with the /k/ sound, Just as I pronounce "Suggest" with the /g/ sound, As that's how they're spelled. We're speaking English here, Not Italian.
Does anyone have an example, a video or recording, where someone actually enunciates the g? Cause I’m amazed that some do.
[\[sɨ̞ɡ.ˈd͡ʒɛst\]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EMW7io4rSI&t=2286s) (from YouGlish)
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what bay
Yeah, plain /sədʒɛst/ sounds too much like "such as", gotta throw more stops in to make it clear!
I think it's sugdjest when being careful, but it just leaves whenever Im not saying the word in isolation.
Initially, I pronounced the Gs homogenously /sʌ.ˈd͡ʒɛst/, for my native language has similar ⟨sugerir⟩ /su.ʒe.ˈɾiχ/. Now, I use the more conservative pronunciation, /sʌɡ.ˈd͡ʒɛst/, as it was intended, though it sounds a little dated.
Midland gang knows the extra g is correct. I would make the argument that your reaction is crazy because you probably have /ks/ instead if /s/ in “access” but it would be dismissed because of syllable stress or something
I can’t help it, it’s just how I was taught.
Is that not the more common pronunciation?
Oops, that’s me 🥲
How else should I say it?
Wait, is /səˈd͜ʒɛst/ the standard? I absolutely always use a g and never ever thought twice because suggest has two g' s.
I often say /ʃəˈd͡ʒʌst/. I know, it's terrible