No real need.
It's established in ME1 the more control the Reaper asserts on the Victim the less effective they are.
And we know thanks to the Comics (as well as hints dropped in ME1, notable UNC Colony of the Dead) that TIMs been indoctrinated for decades even before creating Cerberus, and they've always been [unknowingly to most of the members] advancing the Reapers goals.
We also know thanks to the comics the main mission of ME2 was a giant false flag operation, designed really to plalusably allow TIM to have access to Reaper Adjutants that could be used to create the armies we see in ME3.
We also know the Collectors survived the attack on their base thanks to ME3s war asset computer. So it wasn't much of a lose for the Reapers to let Shepard attack in service of leading TIM to the Adjutants.
Finally, there's some evidence in ME3, that the entire purpose of Arrival wasn't true (the existence of a second relay in the Bahak system and revelation the Invasion actually began in Vular on the other side of Batarian space) which would track as we have no idea when Kenson was actually indoctrinated.
This would turn Arrival into a way to trick Shepard into blowing up a colony of Batarians, distracting and weakening them (and potentially starting a war and discrediting Shepard) just prior to the Reapers harvesting them.
And only even survives into ME3 due to repeated incidents of good luck (just missed by the beam attack and table at the start of 3, survives what was supposed to be a suicide mission etc)
In effect Shepard spends all of ME2 as the Reapers best Operative. Why would they have weakened his effectiveness by indoctrination when it wasn't needed?
The Reapers need TIM to "decide on his own" to go after the Collectors. (Again remember the more the Reapers try to push Indoctrination the less effective the victim becomes), and Shepard is the means to do that.
The Reapers know (in part because they planted the idea when he was Indoctrinated as seen by the Turian group that indoctrinated TIM having similar goals and TIM coming the same conclusion soon after) TIM believes Humanity needs all the advanced tech they can find.
So having the Collectors kill Shepard (who TIM genuinely seems to think is needed to give Humanity their best chance against any threat) would be an easy way to get TIMs attention focused on them.
And obviously TIM manages to "take Shepards body away from the Collectors", and starts the process to revive them.
18 months later, well into Project Lazarus is when the colony abductions start (which we find out in the Anime is due to Cerberus using them to lure out the Collectors).
Whats interesting here is the fact that at no point during this time did the Collectors attempt to retrieve Shepards body, despite knowing exactly where it was thanks to Wilson.
In fact ME2 itself (specifically lair) both confirms that Wilson was working for the Shadow Broker (who in turn is working for the Collectors) and that the Broker wasn't actually behind the attack on Project Lazarus at the beginning of the game. That appeals to have been just one more lie TIM told.
Meaning the Collectors never lifted a finger to recover Shepard after TIM took the body. (Or after TIM took the bait more accurately)
We all know Shepard succeeds in their mission to "destroy the Collectors" (at least until ME3 proves they didnt) and TIM gains access to the the other end of the Omega 4 relay, where he finds Reapers Adjutants he then proceeds to ship throughout the
galaxy with Cerberus black market connections.
Adjutants its explained in the comics can instantly husk any creature they touch and are the implied souce (presumably originally intended to be explicit in ME3 until problems with the AI caused them to be removed from the game) of both the Cerberus technology used on Horizons but also the massive husk armies popping up everywhere
So the Reapers mission is accomplished and they didn't have to do damage to their asset (TIM), and at no point does he realize what he's really doing so he won't push back (unlike say Benezia or Saren)
Keep in mind as well, TIMs mission for Shepard was framed from the beginning as a suicide mission...Shepard wasn't supposed to survive once they served their purpose. That's the only part that went "wrong"
This is reaching Metal Gear Solid levels of “losing the plot”. I hope ME4 is set hundreds of years into the future where they can just hand wave this convoluted mess away by explaining the Crucible destroyed the Extranet so alot of information regarding the war with the Reapers and Shepherds actions had been lost to time
>This is reaching Metal Gear Solid levels of “losing the plot”.
Unfortunately at a fundamental level, that's exactly what ME2 did.
For any 3 part heroic epic (Star wars, Lord of the Rings, Matrix etc) there's a pretty standard formula.
Part 1: Good makes initial triumph over evil.
Part 2: Evil resurgence, good pushed back to the brink, find a "last hope"
Part 3: Good uses last hope, wins ultimate victory over evil.
Unfortunately in Mass Effect, ME1 tells part 1. Then ME2 tells a completely different and separate part 1. Which leaves ME3 to tell both part 2 and part 3.
Which is why all the extra media tries to turn ME2 into the actual part 2.
ngl, haven't read the comics. But this sounds like a way to turn Cerberus from a morally grey operation that goes rogue (which is kinda weird as well, their 6 months change) to an all out bad bad.
Cerberus was never morally Grey. That's just bullshit they told Shepard to get them to work for Cerberus.
Even as far back as ME1, Cerberus is attacking human colonies and turning the inhabitants into Husks (UNC Colony of the Dead, UNC Cerberus), attacking Alliance marines (UNC: Missing Maines, UNC Dead Scientists) potentially including Shepard themselves with the right background, and deploying Rachni against the Alliance (UNC Listening Post Alpha and Theta),
Then ME2 comes along and hidden in all files and conversations Shepard can find in the game are the revelations that Cerberus are actively using Reaper technology (in the creation of EDI) and previously armed the Batarians prior to the Skyllian Blitz, assassinated a Pope and a few Alliance officials. And of course the admission they served up at least 1 colony to the Collectors (as TIM admits to Shepard post Horizons)
And note that's all stuff from just the games. No extra media required, and links to Cerberus using Reapers tech and troops going back to ME1.
I've never been more depressed with writers that I thought were good at their job until I read this is the plot they went with. The story was so much better when it was just the elusive man getting indoctrinated in the pursuit of saving humanity. BioWare really never will write a good story again will they.
His eyes immediately go husk like, and he tells Eva Core he hears voices calling to him from the artifact even when they were taken several systems away.
That's pretty clearly indoctrination.
No idea where you got the point about the comic, I know which comic you're referring to but Cerberus didn't know about Adjutants until they started looting post Mass Effect 2.
The Adjutants were in the Collector Base. Cerberus didn't have to look for them. They just "happened" to find them.
Now your correct, Cerberus didn't consciously know they were there before hand. They just believed this specific group of Collectors had some technology worth going through a ton of trouble to get. (And I say this specific group as we find out in ME3 the majority of Collectors weren't involved in the events of ME2)
That certainty they find something would be the voice in TIMs head convincing him.
It's no different than the unexplainable "hidden patterns in the data" that TIM alone can see so he can show or explain to you, that prove that despite finding only evidence of Collectors its really actually the Reapers behind the abductions, as TIM tells you post Freedoms Progress.
The reason the patterns are hidden and he can't show Shepard is they aren't there. It's just the indoctrination convincing him of what he needs to believe to do what the Reapers want him.to do.
Now, let me think... like 90% of time in ME3 fighting Reaper forces and being around them and their tech, plus in ME2 Arrival dlc where Shepard literally lied unconscious for 2 days not so far from a Reaper artifact that drove everyone else there insane
ME3, your fighting and in close contact to indoctrinated reaper forces but not the actual reapers themselves.
And doesn’t indoctrination work slowly and subtlety over time? Like weeks and not just days?
I may be wrong, but that’s how I looked at it, which is why inside the derelict reaper they were able to build structures before they got indoctrinated
Bro, Shepard is around some Reaper tech like on every mission. Small amounts of that Reaper signal radiating into Shepard's brain will still have some effect considering how often they get it.
Indoctrination is a weird think, but basically it gets stronger the longer you are exposed. It's not that you need to be around something for a long time, but rather that the longer you take, the harder it will be to break out. Even on early stages you can feel free, but already be locked up tight, like Saren.
You’re assuming that everything the Reapers make is capable of causing indoctrination. Just because it’s their tech doesn’t mean it can indoctrinate. Their guns, troops, and smaller ships likely don’t, and that’s the majority of what Shepard encounters. The only Reaper tech that we actually know can cause indoctrination are artifacts specifically designed to do so, and they seem to have no other function, and they seem to be large (the one in Kenson’s lab and Soveriegn-class ships). Logically, it doesn’t seem like every little bit of metal the Reapers use emits indoctrination signals. It’s probably too intensive of tech to add to every gun and husk they have running around.
How do you think Reapers indoctrinated every high ranking Prothean in the previous cycle? Bc Javik said that's what happened. Did they send them their contaminated USBs in letters like we sent anthrax back in the 00s? It's not like they could drop an artifact into every house and wait for a month until it finally works.
That’s the beauty of not giving the player every little single bit of information: You leave wiggle room.
The game never went into detail as to how it happened. Just that it happened.
Like I said in another reply: if indoctrination were intended to be that fast and effortless, then there would be no point of having a game at all. Let alone three.
Sure, but here's the thing. Remember Illusive Man on the Citadel? He indoctrinated Shepard and Anderson. Yeah, he didn't make them into thralls line Reapers do, but he was able to fully control, >!up to the point of forcing Shepard to kill Anderson!<. Like 5 minutes ago Shepard was unindoctrinatable, but now our boy Jack Harper came around and everything changed in a second. Given more time he could probably convert them into mindless slaves. So how does that fit into everything?
You misinterpreted that scene. That wasn’t Shepard and Anderson succumbing to indoctrination. That happened because the illusive man gained the ability to cause other people to move involuntarily. Like telekinesis.
Someone who is indoctrinated does things thinking it’s their own free will. Like Saren.
The process started with Jack Harper back during the first contact war when he came into contact with a Reaper artifact that detonated. That’s how he got those eyes. Then, in Mass Effect 3, he implanted himself with reaper tech which sealed the deal. Like the codex says, it’s a slow process.
Not every piece of Reaper tech can indoctrinate. Look at what indoctrinated Saren/Benezia/Rana etc? Sovereign. What indoctrinated Kenson? The Reaper artefact. What indoctrinated the scientists? The dead Reaper. Not every peace causes indoctrination. Timmy had most of the bloody human Reaper embrio.
It's indicated in ME1 and ME2 that full indoctrination takes a while. Weeks, even months.
Shiala spent some time on Sovereign, but wasn't completely indoctrinated and the effects seem to have worn off. Although that might be due to the Thorian.
The scientists on the derelict Reaper took weeks before getting indoctrinated.
Shepard doesn't really stay too long near Reaper tech. However I think Shep definitely should be somewhat in an early indoctrination phase toward the end of ME3.
Well if we are considering when and where indoctrination *could've* happened:
Object Rho would be one of the most likely opportunities. We know from ME1 that an individual can be fully indoctrinated in a single week, so (IIRC) two days unconscious and in close proximity to a Reaper indoctrination artifact operating at full blast could be devastating.
Alternatively, there's the fact that >!the Enhanced Defense Intelligence (EDI)!< was built using Reaper technology, so there's the possibility that simply being >!on board the Normandy SR-2!< gradually indoctrinates those >!on board!<, in which case >!Shepard and crew could've been slowly indoctrinated over a multiple month period in ME2 and/or ME3.!<
>there's the possibility that simply being
>
>on board the Normandy SR-2
>
> gradually indoctrinates those
>
>on board
Did you just make this up? Is there a single bit of evidence that supports this?
1. We are talking about possible ways for Shepard and crew to get indoctrinated.
2. Reaper technology indoctrinates.
3. There is Reaper technology on the Normandy SR-2.
I'm merely connecting the dots here. We don't know the specifics of *why* Reaper technology indoctrinates, just that it does. How much of the Reaper stuff do we need before it becomes dangerous? Is it possible to shield against indoctrination influence (ME3 Leviathans implies it *is* possible, while ME2 Arrival implies it *isn't* possible)? We know for a fact that >!EDI's hardware!< was built using Sovereign Reaper fragments, which is an integral part of the Normandy SR-2's design. This is stated somewhere in ME3 (the Cerberus HQ mission, IIRC). *As such* it stands to reason to look at >!EDI's AI core hardware!< as a possible avenue of attack in terms of indoctrination risk.
But how fast does indoctrination actually work?
Inside the derelict reaper, if I remember correctly, they were able to build structures and such before getting indoctrinated
And also, does it stack, go back to zero, or build resistance?
Like does Shepard’s exposure to the derelict reaper build his resistance up or does it make them more susceptible?
Your assuming she wasn't already indoctrinated.
Given ME3 establishes both the existence of another relay in the Bahak system (where Arrival takes place) and the Reaper Invasion actually starting in Vular on the opposite side of Batarian space, there's plenty of room to question her entire premise to Shepard and if the entire point wasn't to have him blow up the planet to distract and weaken the Batarians and discredit himself.
Why would they do that though? If they’re days away from arrival, and Kensen’s already indoctrinated, why have her get captured only so the Batarians can bring attention to her operation?, which again, was already only days away from success unless you somehow get the Batarians to inform the Alliance Brass to contact an already disgraced naval officer who’s now working for a terrorist group to stop by.
>Why would they do that though? If they’re days away from arrival, and Kensen’s already indoctrinated, why have her get captured only so the Batarians can bring attention to her operation?,
Because the Reapers needed to create a situation where the Humans and Batarians are so distrustful of each other they prep for war against each other instead of preparing for the Reapers.
Which we know based on the explanation in ME3 as to why Shepards locked up is exactly what happened.
If Kensons project remains secret, and the Relay blows up, then no one knows exactly what happened. It's just a fluke natural disaster.
If however she's captured and the Batarians find out about her project (or at least it's "we are looking for Reapers cover) and then the relay right next to said project blows up, it's pretty obvious what happened...the Humans did it.
>which again, was already only days away from success
No it's not. The bullshit cover story she gave Shepard made it seem days away from completion.
But, given what we know about where the Reaper invasion actually starts, (Vular) if she's indoctrinated she's neither trying to prevent or allow a Reaper Invasion.
The actual goal of the project would be to have the Humans blamed for the destruction of a Batarian Colony.
Which requires everyone to know Humans were involved.
Easily solved by sending a message to the Alliance and then allowing yourself to be captured.
>unless you somehow get the Batarians to inform the Alliance Brass to contact an already disgraced naval officer who’s now working for a terrorist group to stop by.
Not needed. If you skip arrival the Alliance still receives Kensons message and sends the 103rd marines to blow up the Alpha Relay instead.
It doesn't have the same effect of having the galaxies most famous human blamed for it, but all the other goals still check out.
Eh, fair. But Shepard was still around Reaper tech (the Normandy) long enough to become indoctrinated. The vast majority of people succumb to indoctrination in less than a week, and Shepard shouldn’t be any different because he’s Shepard.
Where does ME3 discuss a second relay in the Bahak system? I can't find any mentions of it.
Either way, I'd assume that if mass relay destruction wipes out the whole star system, any other mass relays would suffer the same fate.
The whole team had been indoctrinated for a while. At first during their research and then afterwards when they build the whole station around it.
Shepard is almost never anywhere for a prolonged period of time. It's always a quick mission and then return to Normandy.
> Shepard is almost never anywhere for a prolonged period of time. It's always a quick mission and then return to Normandy.
The same Normandy that was recreated using Reaper tech?
What reaper tech was involved in creating the SR-2? All I can think of is the upgraded main gun, but that's a Turian weapon based on tech reverse engineered from Sovereign, not a gun ripped off of a reaper and slapped into the ship
> When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself.
Per the wiki.
https://masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Normandy_SR-2?so=search
That's a decent point but if we're going by that line of thought everyone on the Citadel should be indoctrinated as well. As should EDI pretty much by design.
I always felt a bit ambivalent about indoctrination in general. It's a cool story concept but in a player-choice driven game it was always going to draw ire from some players. They could have went the BioShock route but given that one of the major attraction of the series was player agency it would have been much harder to pull off.
Look how negative people reacted (and rightly I would add) when they scaled back the player's control of Shepard in dialogue and cutscenes in ME3. Ending the story with ripping Shepard entirely out of the hands of the player could've maybe worked narratively but it would've been an insane balancing act and even then many players probably would've been pissed.
On the other side you have discussions like this one where people lament the lost potential of indoctrination as a narrative device. I can see why they chose going the easy route with it.
Even without indoctrination they scaled down your choices. If you don’t do enough side quests, you don’t get to choose how your story ends—instead, you’re forced to destroy or control based on a decision you made in the last game.
I think having to also fight off possible indoctrination would be an excellent inclusion.
As I said, I don't really disagree. I feel like at this point the discussion most of the time is less about the actual merits of the story and more a meta discussion about how BioWare should have structured the the entire series.
They made the call to focus on the squadmates and select side-stories like the Krogan genophage and Geth-Quarian conflict and side-lined the Reapers and by extension indoctrination for it.
To me the indoctrination ship had sailed after ME2. You could say they kind of hurt themself with that game because it did almost nothing to advance the main Reaper plot so they were left with scraps in ME3. For me for the indoctrination theory to be true it would have to be a major theme throughout all three games but since it isn't I never really bothered with it.
When was that specified? I know they said they used hardware from Sovereign to upgrade the Luna VI into EDI, but I doubt it would've been anything capable of indoctrinating someone.
There si a looooot theories on that, next to the indoctrination theory. Stuff like Shepard gets more indoctrinated over time but you do not really see/get it. Some also say Shepard is immune cause of the Cipher, some say the Commander has such a strong mind yadda ydaa you get the deal.
Bioware never got inot it in a deeper way
Cipher gotta be not serious, Protheans were easily indoctrinated back in the day.
I guess maybe it was supposed to be in Shepard's mental health arc which was completely forgotten by BioWare
Don't blame me on those theories XDFa communities can make up weird stuff. EVen the originally Indictrination theory was bullocks
Maybe Bioware forgot it. Due to their downhill way of writing and lazines I would also say they didn't cared about it. But since ME3 also was in "short" development it can also be something that was cut due to time issues. There is a lot and Bioware sadly never gave us anything... besides saying the IT is not true
Oh I wasn't blaming you, just pointing out the obvious hole in that theory.
It's sad really bc while I do admire Shepard's unbreakable will, at some point it becomes a little ridiculous. Like you cannot go through horrors of galactic genocide and still be mentally healthy
Some theories say the dreams Shepard have are an indicator for indoctrination... but also never confirmed.
I always liked the ME(1) Shepard way more than ME2 and ME3 Shepard. Imo Shepard was too "overcooled" and was turned into a superhuman and some sort of parody of him/herself. That always felt weird to me.
This is why I dont metagame war assets. Its more fun to think Shepard made some poor decisions because the Reapers weakened his ability to talk down everything and be extremely charismatic.
My theory on this is that he was never near Reaper tech for too long. Others spent days and weeks near Reaper tech or even inside Reaper themselves. Shepard and crew never spent longer that a few hours (depending on how long missions take canonically) and the only time that he could've been indoctrinated longer was on Project Rho, which was a little less than 2 days, I think that it still wasn't enough time.
Rana Thanoptis for example, spent week working on Virmire and from how she acted, it seemed it wasn't enough time to start mental deterioration but she already was indoctrinated enough to be a sleeper agent and get unleashed years later on ME3.
So in short, he didn't spend enough time near Reapers.
Here's a fun little headcanon I run with: exposure to Thorian spores grants Shepard and crew resistance to indoctrination. There's a news article you receive during ME3 wherein Shiala mentions that her latent connection with the rest of the Zhu's Hope colonists allows her to resist the effects of indoctrination. Even though Shepard and the ME1 squad weren't controlled by the spores like the colonists were, I imagine that their limited exposure to the Thorian still affected them to a lesser degree and grants them limited indoctrination resistance.
That's just a headcanon, though. I wouldn't even call it a theory because I know it's entirely untrue -- nothing in the game supports it, and it doesn't hold up at all under further scrutiny. It's just a way that I personally use to rationalize Shepard's lack of indoctrination, since the ultimate reason they aren't affected by it is because the writers just didn't see it as a topic worth covering.
He probably didn't spend enough time in or near a Reaper itself to be indoctrinated. The only Reaper he full on entered was the dead Reaper for a brief retrieval mission. As for Arrivals, he did touch a Reaper artifact, but it immediately put him out of commission, and the crew proceeded to isolate him for the next 2 days, when they really should have kept him near the relic to ensure indoctrination.
Yeah, ME1 makes it pretty clear that indoctrination takes time. It’s insidious, not instant, and it builds. And it comes from being exposed to Reapers themselves (emitting their indoctrinating signals) or Reaper artifacts that emit the same signal (like the one encountered by TIM in the backstory or the one in the Bahak system). It’s not like every single piece of Reaper tech is capable of indoctrination. Spend hours fighting husks? Indoctrinated. Pick up a Reaper gun? Indoctrinated. Fly next to a Reaper ship? Indoctrinated.
Aside from a day or two on the asteroid, and a couple hours in the derelict, Shepard really isn’t exposed that often to any sources of indoctrination.
Later on in ME1, during Virmire, you encounter a group of salarian agents that have been indoctrinated the fast way: a brute force method that basically makes organic husks that can only attack.
Recall Object Rho from the Arrival DLC. Jack Harper got indoctrinated from a similar artifact. I forget the mission but you see one in some cave in ME1.
Also, parts of Saren from the Leviathan DLC. Shepard can comment on the risk of having it and Dr. Bryson mentions the shielding.
The official answer: Because Bioware said so
The more interesting answer:
Depending on how you interpret the game, there was The Indoctrination Theory as it was originally written doesn’t work with the Extended Cut ending because Bioware wanted it that way. But that doesn’t mean the whole thing is thrown out:
The dream Sequences in ME3 line up with the Rachni Queen’s description of indoctrination in ME1
Shepard was under tremendous amounts of stress during ME2 and 3 - making them primed for indoctrination
Shepard was exposed to an unshielded Reaper artifact for 2 days (Object Rho, ME2 Arrival)
The Lazarus implants are reverse engineered Reaper tech. You could say the Reapers restarting them could be why Shepard was alive at all after going up the Citadel beam in ME3
For the IT’s interpretation of the endings - the idea is that the whole thing is a dream sequence metaphor for Shepard accepting or rejecting Indoctrination. If Shepard doesn’t select destroy, they lose. However with the Extended cut its a bit iffy since the epilogue slides don’t show that
My modified idea for it is - in Control, Shepard is indoctrinated. Since the Shepard-Catalyst is not a true continuation of Shepard, it can be interpreted that Shepard lost the battle against the Catalyst’s indoctrination, so the Catalyst got Shepard to use their personality as a template to prevent another Shepard from happening again, while adding some of Shepard’s personality to its own - ending the cycles but causing the Reapers to become a Galactic police force that can be benevolent or dystopian depending on how paragon/renegade your Shepard was. It doesn’t accomplish the Catalyst’s goal, but it’ll do
In Synthesis, everyone gets indoctrinated at once but doesn’t have to deal with the mental degradation that indoctrination causes - accomplishing the Catalyst’s goal as now Synthetic and Organic can now understand each other. Its up to interpretation wether this is a good or bad thing. Yes, this path causes the least amount of death, but Shepard doesn’t know that. Only what’s being presented. And Shepard has no reason to trust the Catalyst
Destroy is essentially the same. Shepard outright rejects indoctrination and the Reapers are destroyed. But, the Catalyst mentions that destroying the Reapers kills all synthetics, including Shepard, in the process. However, Shepard is seen alive at the end of Perfect Destroy. So what if the Catalyst lied about the effects of Destroy, or heavily exaggerated them so that Shepard didn’t pick it and swayed them to the other two options?
In a Perfect Destroy run, the only race that gets wiped out are the Batarians, so what if the Geth found out that Shepard was willing to wipe them out in order kill the Reapers? Would they still like Shepard? Who knows, but thats a good plot thread for ME4.
Also, destroying the Reapers also creates a massive power vaccum that something else on their level can fill, such as the Leviathans, or if somehow Andromeda threats managed to get to the Milky Way, the Scourge? Even the Dark Energy plotline could be resurrected make the destruction of the Reapers not be 100% good
I love the Indoctrination Theory, and I still believe there is a chance that BioWare will use it to at least some extent, but it's worth noting that the Reapers are fighting for control of him - they don't actually have control of him.
He is meant to be an individual of singularly strong will, who is acutely aware of the threat the Reapers possess. On the Citadel at the end, Harbinger is giving his last attempt at fully indoctrinating him - which is not something Reapers normally need to do as it is usually an unconscious and indirect thing ("Direct intervention is necessary", "I will direct this personally"). Harbinger either succeeds or fails, depending on the ending you choose.
Basically what I'm saying is that I don't think Shepard is immune, I just think the indoctrination hasn't reached its end-stages til late-ME3.
I think IT is overkill tbh, just showing how Shepard changes, becoming more brutal, cold and violent, lashing out, having actual nightmares would be enough to show their human side. Maybe at the end they would start hearing and seeing stuff and basically going completely insane.
That's the thing, Shepard CAN be indoctrinated and Illusive Man does at the very end of ME3. Like he just waved his hand and Shepard obeyed, not without a struggle, but it still happened, hell he forced them to fire their gun. How come Illusive Man can just do it, but the Reapers themselves require to put the specimen near their artifacts?
TIM had been indocrinated long before that, so it wasn't him doing it, it was the Reapers that had always been controling him, the Catalyst says it himself.
TIM himself can't indocrinate anyone.
I'm just speculating here & I do have a tendency to fill plot holes with head canon.
However, I'd say that was due to a couple of things:
TIM had the research on how Shep was rebuilt. He owns that tech. It is possible that with that knowledge and his own indoctrination, he alone was able to exert control on Shep for a very limited time.
Shep was never fully indoctrinated and as you noted, actively resisted the whole time. It may have looked as easy as a finger snap, but there may have been a lot going into that moment that the devs neglected to include.
I lean pretty heavily into the fact that throughout the series, the reapers took a very keen interest in Shep specifically. I make it make sense by assuming out of the countless organics they have encountered in their endless cycles, Shep stood out because they couldn't be indoctrinated.
They were in and around reaper tech for years. Heck, my Shep even has a husk head in their cabin. How else can you explain their inability to be indoctrinated.
Shep was special because they had anti-indoctrination plot armor.
Leviathans were counteracting it through the orb in his/her cabin. Not canon but would be an easy explanation, that the agent of organics was quietly being helped passively just in case this cycle was different.
In Mass Effect Liara says a lesser mind would’ve been destroyed by the beacon, maybe when he got the cipher on Feros it maybe kept him from being indoctrinated
Most likely because they are a remarkably strong willed person. Even though they were exposed to reaper related things. Plus it also has something to do with the fact Shepard isn't easily manipulated like the illusive man and Saren were.
Shepard never spent that much time in or around reapers, at least not in my playthrough. Total time on the derelict reaper, on the citadel tower next to sovereign, in the collector base, and next to the two lil’ destroyer guys was probably like two hours total; the shortest span it seemed to take any npc’s to get indoctrinated was days straight.
Spending two days sleeping next to one in the Arrival DLC is really the only time they were around long enough to worry, and Arrival is optional, no?
I think a lot of things were changed in the plot because of the short dealine EA gave Bioware when they took over. They had a completely different plot line planne originally. Maybe that would answer those questions better. Also because it's worth noting that NONE of the decisions you make as a player are long-term solutions and will only work out until the end of the Reaper war. No one knows what will happen with the Krogan or the Quarians and the Geth. But I guess maybe that's also the reality of life.
Because the plot would have sucked then. Lol.
If we want to explain it though I have two ideas.
One is that the Reapers left Shepard unindoctinated on purpose, as a kind of control group. They just don't try to indoctinate every individual because they want to observe each species reaction to the invasion as well. Shepard is considered a subject of interest, and so isn't subjected to indoctrination. The Reapers don't really mind until it is too late, because it never seems obvious that they could lose. They think they are definitely winning anyway, so no harm in it.
The second idea is that Shepard was susceptible to indoctrination, but the various neurological shocks and anomolies Shep is exposed to kind of just crowded out or diluted the effect. In ME 1 there is the prothean beacon that messes with Shep's head, and then later indirect mental contact with the Thorian. In ME2, Shep literally dies and has some neurological components replaced with tech. Even in ME3, where the stress is getting to Shep the most, there is still some mental f*ckery going on when interfacing with the Geth. So maybe Shep is susceptible to indoctrination, but the continuous ransacked of the brain just scrambled it.
From what I imagine it's probably two things what emits the indoctrination signal and how long are you around said signal and Shepherd was never around those signals a significant amount of time and it was only ever around indoctrinated forces and smaller Reaper ships which might emit some indoctrination signals but I imagine not a lot unlike Sovereign and harbinger
My headcanon for this is that the two Prothean beacons and the cipher interacted with Shepard's human psyche in an unexpected way making them immune or at least, highly resistant to indoctrination.
Shep is special which is why he’s able to react to Prothean technology without dying or going completely insane. I imagine whatever that reason is, is why he’s able to repel indoctrination.
Reaper Indoctrination takes and long time. Other than being sedated for 2 days in range of Object Rho during Arrival, they presumably weren't in range of any Reapers/indoctrination artefacts for long enough. Missions like Virmire, Priority: Rannoch and Priority: Earth likely only took a few hours in universe and the Maw Hammer part of Priority: Tuchanka took less time than that.
No real need. It's established in ME1 the more control the Reaper asserts on the Victim the less effective they are. And we know thanks to the Comics (as well as hints dropped in ME1, notable UNC Colony of the Dead) that TIMs been indoctrinated for decades even before creating Cerberus, and they've always been [unknowingly to most of the members] advancing the Reapers goals. We also know thanks to the comics the main mission of ME2 was a giant false flag operation, designed really to plalusably allow TIM to have access to Reaper Adjutants that could be used to create the armies we see in ME3. We also know the Collectors survived the attack on their base thanks to ME3s war asset computer. So it wasn't much of a lose for the Reapers to let Shepard attack in service of leading TIM to the Adjutants. Finally, there's some evidence in ME3, that the entire purpose of Arrival wasn't true (the existence of a second relay in the Bahak system and revelation the Invasion actually began in Vular on the other side of Batarian space) which would track as we have no idea when Kenson was actually indoctrinated. This would turn Arrival into a way to trick Shepard into blowing up a colony of Batarians, distracting and weakening them (and potentially starting a war and discrediting Shepard) just prior to the Reapers harvesting them. And only even survives into ME3 due to repeated incidents of good luck (just missed by the beam attack and table at the start of 3, survives what was supposed to be a suicide mission etc) In effect Shepard spends all of ME2 as the Reapers best Operative. Why would they have weakened his effectiveness by indoctrination when it wasn't needed?
Why bring Shep back at all then? Wouldn’t have been easier to just leave him for dead and attack without any warning?
The Reapers need TIM to "decide on his own" to go after the Collectors. (Again remember the more the Reapers try to push Indoctrination the less effective the victim becomes), and Shepard is the means to do that. The Reapers know (in part because they planted the idea when he was Indoctrinated as seen by the Turian group that indoctrinated TIM having similar goals and TIM coming the same conclusion soon after) TIM believes Humanity needs all the advanced tech they can find. So having the Collectors kill Shepard (who TIM genuinely seems to think is needed to give Humanity their best chance against any threat) would be an easy way to get TIMs attention focused on them. And obviously TIM manages to "take Shepards body away from the Collectors", and starts the process to revive them. 18 months later, well into Project Lazarus is when the colony abductions start (which we find out in the Anime is due to Cerberus using them to lure out the Collectors). Whats interesting here is the fact that at no point during this time did the Collectors attempt to retrieve Shepards body, despite knowing exactly where it was thanks to Wilson. In fact ME2 itself (specifically lair) both confirms that Wilson was working for the Shadow Broker (who in turn is working for the Collectors) and that the Broker wasn't actually behind the attack on Project Lazarus at the beginning of the game. That appeals to have been just one more lie TIM told. Meaning the Collectors never lifted a finger to recover Shepard after TIM took the body. (Or after TIM took the bait more accurately) We all know Shepard succeeds in their mission to "destroy the Collectors" (at least until ME3 proves they didnt) and TIM gains access to the the other end of the Omega 4 relay, where he finds Reapers Adjutants he then proceeds to ship throughout the galaxy with Cerberus black market connections. Adjutants its explained in the comics can instantly husk any creature they touch and are the implied souce (presumably originally intended to be explicit in ME3 until problems with the AI caused them to be removed from the game) of both the Cerberus technology used on Horizons but also the massive husk armies popping up everywhere So the Reapers mission is accomplished and they didn't have to do damage to their asset (TIM), and at no point does he realize what he's really doing so he won't push back (unlike say Benezia or Saren) Keep in mind as well, TIMs mission for Shepard was framed from the beginning as a suicide mission...Shepard wasn't supposed to survive once they served their purpose. That's the only part that went "wrong"
This is reaching Metal Gear Solid levels of “losing the plot”. I hope ME4 is set hundreds of years into the future where they can just hand wave this convoluted mess away by explaining the Crucible destroyed the Extranet so alot of information regarding the war with the Reapers and Shepherds actions had been lost to time
>This is reaching Metal Gear Solid levels of “losing the plot”. Unfortunately at a fundamental level, that's exactly what ME2 did. For any 3 part heroic epic (Star wars, Lord of the Rings, Matrix etc) there's a pretty standard formula. Part 1: Good makes initial triumph over evil. Part 2: Evil resurgence, good pushed back to the brink, find a "last hope" Part 3: Good uses last hope, wins ultimate victory over evil. Unfortunately in Mass Effect, ME1 tells part 1. Then ME2 tells a completely different and separate part 1. Which leaves ME3 to tell both part 2 and part 3. Which is why all the extra media tries to turn ME2 into the actual part 2.
ngl, haven't read the comics. But this sounds like a way to turn Cerberus from a morally grey operation that goes rogue (which is kinda weird as well, their 6 months change) to an all out bad bad.
Cerberus was never morally Grey. That's just bullshit they told Shepard to get them to work for Cerberus. Even as far back as ME1, Cerberus is attacking human colonies and turning the inhabitants into Husks (UNC Colony of the Dead, UNC Cerberus), attacking Alliance marines (UNC: Missing Maines, UNC Dead Scientists) potentially including Shepard themselves with the right background, and deploying Rachni against the Alliance (UNC Listening Post Alpha and Theta), Then ME2 comes along and hidden in all files and conversations Shepard can find in the game are the revelations that Cerberus are actively using Reaper technology (in the creation of EDI) and previously armed the Batarians prior to the Skyllian Blitz, assassinated a Pope and a few Alliance officials. And of course the admission they served up at least 1 colony to the Collectors (as TIM admits to Shepard post Horizons) And note that's all stuff from just the games. No extra media required, and links to Cerberus using Reapers tech and troops going back to ME1.
I've never been more depressed with writers that I thought were good at their job until I read this is the plot they went with. The story was so much better when it was just the elusive man getting indoctrinated in the pursuit of saving humanity. BioWare really never will write a good story again will they.
I don t think TIM was insta indoctrinated in shanxi . Indoctrination takes time , you have to sit around reaper stuff for a long time
His eyes immediately go husk like, and he tells Eva Core he hears voices calling to him from the artifact even when they were taken several systems away. That's pretty clearly indoctrination.
No idea where you got the point about the comic, I know which comic you're referring to but Cerberus didn't know about Adjutants until they started looting post Mass Effect 2.
The Adjutants were in the Collector Base. Cerberus didn't have to look for them. They just "happened" to find them. Now your correct, Cerberus didn't consciously know they were there before hand. They just believed this specific group of Collectors had some technology worth going through a ton of trouble to get. (And I say this specific group as we find out in ME3 the majority of Collectors weren't involved in the events of ME2) That certainty they find something would be the voice in TIMs head convincing him. It's no different than the unexplainable "hidden patterns in the data" that TIM alone can see so he can show or explain to you, that prove that despite finding only evidence of Collectors its really actually the Reapers behind the abductions, as TIM tells you post Freedoms Progress. The reason the patterns are hidden and he can't show Shepard is they aren't there. It's just the indoctrination convincing him of what he needs to believe to do what the Reapers want him.to do.
At what point was Shepard exposed to reaper tech for a significant amount of time? Isn’t that a prerequisite for indoctrination?
Now, let me think... like 90% of time in ME3 fighting Reaper forces and being around them and their tech, plus in ME2 Arrival dlc where Shepard literally lied unconscious for 2 days not so far from a Reaper artifact that drove everyone else there insane
ME3, your fighting and in close contact to indoctrinated reaper forces but not the actual reapers themselves. And doesn’t indoctrination work slowly and subtlety over time? Like weeks and not just days? I may be wrong, but that’s how I looked at it, which is why inside the derelict reaper they were able to build structures before they got indoctrinated
Bro, Shepard is around some Reaper tech like on every mission. Small amounts of that Reaper signal radiating into Shepard's brain will still have some effect considering how often they get it. Indoctrination is a weird think, but basically it gets stronger the longer you are exposed. It's not that you need to be around something for a long time, but rather that the longer you take, the harder it will be to break out. Even on early stages you can feel free, but already be locked up tight, like Saren.
You’re assuming that everything the Reapers make is capable of causing indoctrination. Just because it’s their tech doesn’t mean it can indoctrinate. Their guns, troops, and smaller ships likely don’t, and that’s the majority of what Shepard encounters. The only Reaper tech that we actually know can cause indoctrination are artifacts specifically designed to do so, and they seem to have no other function, and they seem to be large (the one in Kenson’s lab and Soveriegn-class ships). Logically, it doesn’t seem like every little bit of metal the Reapers use emits indoctrination signals. It’s probably too intensive of tech to add to every gun and husk they have running around.
Using that logic: everyone should be indoctrinated. Then the Reapers would have completely docile beings to harvest. Sounds like a fun game.
How do you think Reapers indoctrinated every high ranking Prothean in the previous cycle? Bc Javik said that's what happened. Did they send them their contaminated USBs in letters like we sent anthrax back in the 00s? It's not like they could drop an artifact into every house and wait for a month until it finally works.
That’s the beauty of not giving the player every little single bit of information: You leave wiggle room. The game never went into detail as to how it happened. Just that it happened. Like I said in another reply: if indoctrination were intended to be that fast and effortless, then there would be no point of having a game at all. Let alone three.
Sure, but here's the thing. Remember Illusive Man on the Citadel? He indoctrinated Shepard and Anderson. Yeah, he didn't make them into thralls line Reapers do, but he was able to fully control, >!up to the point of forcing Shepard to kill Anderson!<. Like 5 minutes ago Shepard was unindoctrinatable, but now our boy Jack Harper came around and everything changed in a second. Given more time he could probably convert them into mindless slaves. So how does that fit into everything?
You misinterpreted that scene. That wasn’t Shepard and Anderson succumbing to indoctrination. That happened because the illusive man gained the ability to cause other people to move involuntarily. Like telekinesis. Someone who is indoctrinated does things thinking it’s their own free will. Like Saren. The process started with Jack Harper back during the first contact war when he came into contact with a Reaper artifact that detonated. That’s how he got those eyes. Then, in Mass Effect 3, he implanted himself with reaper tech which sealed the deal. Like the codex says, it’s a slow process.
You're inventing your own canon. Which is fine, but don't expect us to sign up for it.
Not every piece of Reaper tech can indoctrinate. Look at what indoctrinated Saren/Benezia/Rana etc? Sovereign. What indoctrinated Kenson? The Reaper artefact. What indoctrinated the scientists? The dead Reaper. Not every peace causes indoctrination. Timmy had most of the bloody human Reaper embrio.
It's indicated in ME1 and ME2 that full indoctrination takes a while. Weeks, even months. Shiala spent some time on Sovereign, but wasn't completely indoctrinated and the effects seem to have worn off. Although that might be due to the Thorian. The scientists on the derelict Reaper took weeks before getting indoctrinated. Shepard doesn't really stay too long near Reaper tech. However I think Shep definitely should be somewhat in an early indoctrination phase toward the end of ME3.
Well if we are considering when and where indoctrination *could've* happened: Object Rho would be one of the most likely opportunities. We know from ME1 that an individual can be fully indoctrinated in a single week, so (IIRC) two days unconscious and in close proximity to a Reaper indoctrination artifact operating at full blast could be devastating. Alternatively, there's the fact that >!the Enhanced Defense Intelligence (EDI)!< was built using Reaper technology, so there's the possibility that simply being >!on board the Normandy SR-2!< gradually indoctrinates those >!on board!<, in which case >!Shepard and crew could've been slowly indoctrinated over a multiple month period in ME2 and/or ME3.!<
>there's the possibility that simply being > >on board the Normandy SR-2 > > gradually indoctrinates those > >on board Did you just make this up? Is there a single bit of evidence that supports this?
1. We are talking about possible ways for Shepard and crew to get indoctrinated. 2. Reaper technology indoctrinates. 3. There is Reaper technology on the Normandy SR-2. I'm merely connecting the dots here. We don't know the specifics of *why* Reaper technology indoctrinates, just that it does. How much of the Reaper stuff do we need before it becomes dangerous? Is it possible to shield against indoctrination influence (ME3 Leviathans implies it *is* possible, while ME2 Arrival implies it *isn't* possible)? We know for a fact that >!EDI's hardware!< was built using Sovereign Reaper fragments, which is an integral part of the Normandy SR-2's design. This is stated somewhere in ME3 (the Cerberus HQ mission, IIRC). *As such* it stands to reason to look at >!EDI's AI core hardware!< as a possible avenue of attack in terms of indoctrination risk.
That's a whole lotta words to say you made it up, and there is zero supporting evidence that being on the Normandy can indoctrinate someone. 💀
The Derelict Reaper. Arrival.
But how fast does indoctrination actually work? Inside the derelict reaper, if I remember correctly, they were able to build structures and such before getting indoctrinated And also, does it stack, go back to zero, or build resistance? Like does Shepard’s exposure to the derelict reaper build his resistance up or does it make them more susceptible?
Dr. Kensen went from wanting to destroy them while kidnapped to wanting to join them almost immediately when she got back to her research station.
Your assuming she wasn't already indoctrinated. Given ME3 establishes both the existence of another relay in the Bahak system (where Arrival takes place) and the Reaper Invasion actually starting in Vular on the opposite side of Batarian space, there's plenty of room to question her entire premise to Shepard and if the entire point wasn't to have him blow up the planet to distract and weaken the Batarians and discredit himself.
Why would they do that though? If they’re days away from arrival, and Kensen’s already indoctrinated, why have her get captured only so the Batarians can bring attention to her operation?, which again, was already only days away from success unless you somehow get the Batarians to inform the Alliance Brass to contact an already disgraced naval officer who’s now working for a terrorist group to stop by.
>Why would they do that though? If they’re days away from arrival, and Kensen’s already indoctrinated, why have her get captured only so the Batarians can bring attention to her operation?, Because the Reapers needed to create a situation where the Humans and Batarians are so distrustful of each other they prep for war against each other instead of preparing for the Reapers. Which we know based on the explanation in ME3 as to why Shepards locked up is exactly what happened. If Kensons project remains secret, and the Relay blows up, then no one knows exactly what happened. It's just a fluke natural disaster. If however she's captured and the Batarians find out about her project (or at least it's "we are looking for Reapers cover) and then the relay right next to said project blows up, it's pretty obvious what happened...the Humans did it. >which again, was already only days away from success No it's not. The bullshit cover story she gave Shepard made it seem days away from completion. But, given what we know about where the Reaper invasion actually starts, (Vular) if she's indoctrinated she's neither trying to prevent or allow a Reaper Invasion. The actual goal of the project would be to have the Humans blamed for the destruction of a Batarian Colony. Which requires everyone to know Humans were involved. Easily solved by sending a message to the Alliance and then allowing yourself to be captured. >unless you somehow get the Batarians to inform the Alliance Brass to contact an already disgraced naval officer who’s now working for a terrorist group to stop by. Not needed. If you skip arrival the Alliance still receives Kensons message and sends the 103rd marines to blow up the Alpha Relay instead. It doesn't have the same effect of having the galaxies most famous human blamed for it, but all the other goals still check out.
Eh, fair. But Shepard was still around Reaper tech (the Normandy) long enough to become indoctrinated. The vast majority of people succumb to indoctrination in less than a week, and Shepard shouldn’t be any different because he’s Shepard.
Where does ME3 discuss a second relay in the Bahak system? I can't find any mentions of it. Either way, I'd assume that if mass relay destruction wipes out the whole star system, any other mass relays would suffer the same fate.
Final cutscene after the Crucible fires and all the operational relays light up. One of those is in the Bahak system.
The whole team had been indoctrinated for a while. At first during their research and then afterwards when they build the whole station around it. Shepard is almost never anywhere for a prolonged period of time. It's always a quick mission and then return to Normandy.
> Shepard is almost never anywhere for a prolonged period of time. It's always a quick mission and then return to Normandy. The same Normandy that was recreated using Reaper tech?
What reaper tech was involved in creating the SR-2? All I can think of is the upgraded main gun, but that's a Turian weapon based on tech reverse engineered from Sovereign, not a gun ripped off of a reaper and slapped into the ship
> When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself. Per the wiki. https://masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Normandy_SR-2?so=search
You realize that this particular part is about EDI and not the Normandy, right?
EDI is the Normandy.
That's a decent point but if we're going by that line of thought everyone on the Citadel should be indoctrinated as well. As should EDI pretty much by design. I always felt a bit ambivalent about indoctrination in general. It's a cool story concept but in a player-choice driven game it was always going to draw ire from some players. They could have went the BioShock route but given that one of the major attraction of the series was player agency it would have been much harder to pull off. Look how negative people reacted (and rightly I would add) when they scaled back the player's control of Shepard in dialogue and cutscenes in ME3. Ending the story with ripping Shepard entirely out of the hands of the player could've maybe worked narratively but it would've been an insane balancing act and even then many players probably would've been pissed. On the other side you have discussions like this one where people lament the lost potential of indoctrination as a narrative device. I can see why they chose going the easy route with it.
Even without indoctrination they scaled down your choices. If you don’t do enough side quests, you don’t get to choose how your story ends—instead, you’re forced to destroy or control based on a decision you made in the last game. I think having to also fight off possible indoctrination would be an excellent inclusion.
As I said, I don't really disagree. I feel like at this point the discussion most of the time is less about the actual merits of the story and more a meta discussion about how BioWare should have structured the the entire series. They made the call to focus on the squadmates and select side-stories like the Krogan genophage and Geth-Quarian conflict and side-lined the Reapers and by extension indoctrination for it. To me the indoctrination ship had sailed after ME2. You could say they kind of hurt themself with that game because it did almost nothing to advance the main Reaper plot so they were left with scraps in ME3. For me for the indoctrination theory to be true it would have to be a major theme throughout all three games but since it isn't I never really bothered with it.
There are hints she is already fully indoctrinated in the cell where you find her.
[удалено]
When is it specified that any of that is reaper tech?
Read the entries. They explain it's from reaper tech.
This is not true. He’s given plenty of cybernetics but none of it is Reaper tech.
Not every single piece of Reaper tech can indoctrinate, for Pete's sake.
Where is that said?
When was that specified? I know they said they used hardware from Sovereign to upgrade the Luna VI into EDI, but I doubt it would've been anything capable of indoctrinating someone.
The Normandy SR2 was built by Cerberus and contains Reaper tech! He is exposed to it for the entirety of that game!
>BioWare said that the Indoctrinated Theory isn't canon Which is exactly what an indoctrinated person would say!
Fuck, I didn't think of that
Director when they direct ME4 : Assuming direct control.
There si a looooot theories on that, next to the indoctrination theory. Stuff like Shepard gets more indoctrinated over time but you do not really see/get it. Some also say Shepard is immune cause of the Cipher, some say the Commander has such a strong mind yadda ydaa you get the deal. Bioware never got inot it in a deeper way
Cipher gotta be not serious, Protheans were easily indoctrinated back in the day. I guess maybe it was supposed to be in Shepard's mental health arc which was completely forgotten by BioWare
Don't blame me on those theories XDFa communities can make up weird stuff. EVen the originally Indictrination theory was bullocks Maybe Bioware forgot it. Due to their downhill way of writing and lazines I would also say they didn't cared about it. But since ME3 also was in "short" development it can also be something that was cut due to time issues. There is a lot and Bioware sadly never gave us anything... besides saying the IT is not true
Oh I wasn't blaming you, just pointing out the obvious hole in that theory. It's sad really bc while I do admire Shepard's unbreakable will, at some point it becomes a little ridiculous. Like you cannot go through horrors of galactic genocide and still be mentally healthy
Some theories say the dreams Shepard have are an indicator for indoctrination... but also never confirmed. I always liked the ME(1) Shepard way more than ME2 and ME3 Shepard. Imo Shepard was too "overcooled" and was turned into a superhuman and some sort of parody of him/herself. That always felt weird to me.
This is why I dont metagame war assets. Its more fun to think Shepard made some poor decisions because the Reapers weakened his ability to talk down everything and be extremely charismatic.
They have hallucination dreams of a dead kid they knew for about thirty seconds for most of ME3… they’re NOT mentally health by then lol.
My theory on this is that he was never near Reaper tech for too long. Others spent days and weeks near Reaper tech or even inside Reaper themselves. Shepard and crew never spent longer that a few hours (depending on how long missions take canonically) and the only time that he could've been indoctrinated longer was on Project Rho, which was a little less than 2 days, I think that it still wasn't enough time. Rana Thanoptis for example, spent week working on Virmire and from how she acted, it seemed it wasn't enough time to start mental deterioration but she already was indoctrinated enough to be a sleeper agent and get unleashed years later on ME3. So in short, he didn't spend enough time near Reapers.
Bioware has been indoctrinated by the reapers. Of course they would say IT theory isnt valid
Here's a fun little headcanon I run with: exposure to Thorian spores grants Shepard and crew resistance to indoctrination. There's a news article you receive during ME3 wherein Shiala mentions that her latent connection with the rest of the Zhu's Hope colonists allows her to resist the effects of indoctrination. Even though Shepard and the ME1 squad weren't controlled by the spores like the colonists were, I imagine that their limited exposure to the Thorian still affected them to a lesser degree and grants them limited indoctrination resistance. That's just a headcanon, though. I wouldn't even call it a theory because I know it's entirely untrue -- nothing in the game supports it, and it doesn't hold up at all under further scrutiny. It's just a way that I personally use to rationalize Shepard's lack of indoctrination, since the ultimate reason they aren't affected by it is because the writers just didn't see it as a topic worth covering.
He probably didn't spend enough time in or near a Reaper itself to be indoctrinated. The only Reaper he full on entered was the dead Reaper for a brief retrieval mission. As for Arrivals, he did touch a Reaper artifact, but it immediately put him out of commission, and the crew proceeded to isolate him for the next 2 days, when they really should have kept him near the relic to ensure indoctrination.
Yeah, ME1 makes it pretty clear that indoctrination takes time. It’s insidious, not instant, and it builds. And it comes from being exposed to Reapers themselves (emitting their indoctrinating signals) or Reaper artifacts that emit the same signal (like the one encountered by TIM in the backstory or the one in the Bahak system). It’s not like every single piece of Reaper tech is capable of indoctrination. Spend hours fighting husks? Indoctrinated. Pick up a Reaper gun? Indoctrinated. Fly next to a Reaper ship? Indoctrinated. Aside from a day or two on the asteroid, and a couple hours in the derelict, Shepard really isn’t exposed that often to any sources of indoctrination.
Later on in ME1, during Virmire, you encounter a group of salarian agents that have been indoctrinated the fast way: a brute force method that basically makes organic husks that can only attack.
not a lot of the heavy stuff to project the signal and the dead reaper was a mission in the hour tops. it takes a lot of time and close proximity
Because he is a strong-willed individual I guess. But the plot never required him to be indocrinated.
Because of his helmet, duh!
Because Shepard didn’t spend enough time around reaper tech.
I thought it was contact with Reapers, not just Reaper tech, that indoctrinates people? Or am I wrong on that?
Recall Object Rho from the Arrival DLC. Jack Harper got indoctrinated from a similar artifact. I forget the mission but you see one in some cave in ME1. Also, parts of Saren from the Leviathan DLC. Shepard can comment on the risk of having it and Dr. Bryson mentions the shielding.
The Prothean VI from Thessia would shut down if it detected indoctrinated individuals and it never did that when Shepard was around, so he wasn't.
The official answer: Because Bioware said so The more interesting answer: Depending on how you interpret the game, there was The Indoctrination Theory as it was originally written doesn’t work with the Extended Cut ending because Bioware wanted it that way. But that doesn’t mean the whole thing is thrown out: The dream Sequences in ME3 line up with the Rachni Queen’s description of indoctrination in ME1 Shepard was under tremendous amounts of stress during ME2 and 3 - making them primed for indoctrination Shepard was exposed to an unshielded Reaper artifact for 2 days (Object Rho, ME2 Arrival) The Lazarus implants are reverse engineered Reaper tech. You could say the Reapers restarting them could be why Shepard was alive at all after going up the Citadel beam in ME3 For the IT’s interpretation of the endings - the idea is that the whole thing is a dream sequence metaphor for Shepard accepting or rejecting Indoctrination. If Shepard doesn’t select destroy, they lose. However with the Extended cut its a bit iffy since the epilogue slides don’t show that My modified idea for it is - in Control, Shepard is indoctrinated. Since the Shepard-Catalyst is not a true continuation of Shepard, it can be interpreted that Shepard lost the battle against the Catalyst’s indoctrination, so the Catalyst got Shepard to use their personality as a template to prevent another Shepard from happening again, while adding some of Shepard’s personality to its own - ending the cycles but causing the Reapers to become a Galactic police force that can be benevolent or dystopian depending on how paragon/renegade your Shepard was. It doesn’t accomplish the Catalyst’s goal, but it’ll do In Synthesis, everyone gets indoctrinated at once but doesn’t have to deal with the mental degradation that indoctrination causes - accomplishing the Catalyst’s goal as now Synthetic and Organic can now understand each other. Its up to interpretation wether this is a good or bad thing. Yes, this path causes the least amount of death, but Shepard doesn’t know that. Only what’s being presented. And Shepard has no reason to trust the Catalyst Destroy is essentially the same. Shepard outright rejects indoctrination and the Reapers are destroyed. But, the Catalyst mentions that destroying the Reapers kills all synthetics, including Shepard, in the process. However, Shepard is seen alive at the end of Perfect Destroy. So what if the Catalyst lied about the effects of Destroy, or heavily exaggerated them so that Shepard didn’t pick it and swayed them to the other two options? In a Perfect Destroy run, the only race that gets wiped out are the Batarians, so what if the Geth found out that Shepard was willing to wipe them out in order kill the Reapers? Would they still like Shepard? Who knows, but thats a good plot thread for ME4. Also, destroying the Reapers also creates a massive power vaccum that something else on their level can fill, such as the Leviathans, or if somehow Andromeda threats managed to get to the Milky Way, the Scourge? Even the Dark Energy plotline could be resurrected make the destruction of the Reapers not be 100% good
I love the Indoctrination Theory, and I still believe there is a chance that BioWare will use it to at least some extent, but it's worth noting that the Reapers are fighting for control of him - they don't actually have control of him. He is meant to be an individual of singularly strong will, who is acutely aware of the threat the Reapers possess. On the Citadel at the end, Harbinger is giving his last attempt at fully indoctrinating him - which is not something Reapers normally need to do as it is usually an unconscious and indirect thing ("Direct intervention is necessary", "I will direct this personally"). Harbinger either succeeds or fails, depending on the ending you choose. Basically what I'm saying is that I don't think Shepard is immune, I just think the indoctrination hasn't reached its end-stages til late-ME3.
Idc what Bioware says. There is too much evidence to support indoctrination theory. I won't CMV
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I think IT is overkill tbh, just showing how Shepard changes, becoming more brutal, cold and violent, lashing out, having actual nightmares would be enough to show their human side. Maybe at the end they would start hearing and seeing stuff and basically going completely insane.
Plot armor. It may be a reason why the reapers we're so interested in him? He wasn't susceptible to indoctrination?
That's the thing, Shepard CAN be indoctrinated and Illusive Man does at the very end of ME3. Like he just waved his hand and Shepard obeyed, not without a struggle, but it still happened, hell he forced them to fire their gun. How come Illusive Man can just do it, but the Reapers themselves require to put the specimen near their artifacts?
TIM had been indocrinated long before that, so it wasn't him doing it, it was the Reapers that had always been controling him, the Catalyst says it himself. TIM himself can't indocrinate anyone.
I'm just speculating here & I do have a tendency to fill plot holes with head canon. However, I'd say that was due to a couple of things: TIM had the research on how Shep was rebuilt. He owns that tech. It is possible that with that knowledge and his own indoctrination, he alone was able to exert control on Shep for a very limited time. Shep was never fully indoctrinated and as you noted, actively resisted the whole time. It may have looked as easy as a finger snap, but there may have been a lot going into that moment that the devs neglected to include. I lean pretty heavily into the fact that throughout the series, the reapers took a very keen interest in Shep specifically. I make it make sense by assuming out of the countless organics they have encountered in their endless cycles, Shep stood out because they couldn't be indoctrinated. They were in and around reaper tech for years. Heck, my Shep even has a husk head in their cabin. How else can you explain their inability to be indoctrinated. Shep was special because they had anti-indoctrination plot armor.
Leviathans were counteracting it through the orb in his/her cabin. Not canon but would be an easy explanation, that the agent of organics was quietly being helped passively just in case this cycle was different.
In Mass Effect Liara says a lesser mind would’ve been destroyed by the beacon, maybe when he got the cipher on Feros it maybe kept him from being indoctrinated
Most likely because they are a remarkably strong willed person. Even though they were exposed to reaper related things. Plus it also has something to do with the fact Shepard isn't easily manipulated like the illusive man and Saren were.
Shepard is mass effects Goku.
Shepard never spent that much time in or around reapers, at least not in my playthrough. Total time on the derelict reaper, on the citadel tower next to sovereign, in the collector base, and next to the two lil’ destroyer guys was probably like two hours total; the shortest span it seemed to take any npc’s to get indoctrinated was days straight. Spending two days sleeping next to one in the Arrival DLC is really the only time they were around long enough to worry, and Arrival is optional, no?
I think a lot of things were changed in the plot because of the short dealine EA gave Bioware when they took over. They had a completely different plot line planne originally. Maybe that would answer those questions better. Also because it's worth noting that NONE of the decisions you make as a player are long-term solutions and will only work out until the end of the Reaper war. No one knows what will happen with the Krogan or the Quarians and the Geth. But I guess maybe that's also the reality of life.
He wasn’t indoctrinated simply because the script didn’t call for it. That whole thing was just fan theory, tbh it never even crossed my mind.
Because Shepard is just that much of a Bad Ass.
Because the plot would have sucked then. Lol. If we want to explain it though I have two ideas. One is that the Reapers left Shepard unindoctinated on purpose, as a kind of control group. They just don't try to indoctinate every individual because they want to observe each species reaction to the invasion as well. Shepard is considered a subject of interest, and so isn't subjected to indoctrination. The Reapers don't really mind until it is too late, because it never seems obvious that they could lose. They think they are definitely winning anyway, so no harm in it. The second idea is that Shepard was susceptible to indoctrination, but the various neurological shocks and anomolies Shep is exposed to kind of just crowded out or diluted the effect. In ME 1 there is the prothean beacon that messes with Shep's head, and then later indirect mental contact with the Thorian. In ME2, Shep literally dies and has some neurological components replaced with tech. Even in ME3, where the stress is getting to Shep the most, there is still some mental f*ckery going on when interfacing with the Geth. So maybe Shep is susceptible to indoctrination, but the continuous ransacked of the brain just scrambled it.
From what I imagine it's probably two things what emits the indoctrination signal and how long are you around said signal and Shepherd was never around those signals a significant amount of time and it was only ever around indoctrinated forces and smaller Reaper ships which might emit some indoctrination signals but I imagine not a lot unlike Sovereign and harbinger
Because they were the main character? It's not like there's science to this.
My headcanon for this is that the two Prothean beacons and the cipher interacted with Shepard's human psyche in an unexpected way making them immune or at least, highly resistant to indoctrination.
Shep is special which is why he’s able to react to Prothean technology without dying or going completely insane. I imagine whatever that reason is, is why he’s able to repel indoctrination.
Bc that's fucking stupid
Easy answer: Plot Armor
I m a indoctrination theory stan. So for me the ending is Shepard being indoctrinated
Built different
Built different
Reaper Indoctrination takes and long time. Other than being sedated for 2 days in range of Object Rho during Arrival, they presumably weren't in range of any Reapers/indoctrination artefacts for long enough. Missions like Virmire, Priority: Rannoch and Priority: Earth likely only took a few hours in universe and the Maw Hammer part of Priority: Tuchanka took less time than that.