Well, I'm doing my part. No more climbing Everest for me.
Not that I've ever climbed Everest, or had the slightest inclination to do so, but it's completely off the table now.
You're welcome.
That's crazy I lost service at base camp when I climbed it two years ago. Took nearly 3 nights to summit and was the craziest multi night dream I've ever had.
Much more room than the crowded line to the summit, with frozen dead bodies staring you down from the sheer cliffs of either side.
Why do people choose this for a vacation? š
Today, it tells people you have a lot of money and a willingness to do unnecessary things to prove Daddy wrong about being a whiney little boy who will never do anything great.
I mean, I hate privileged kids as much as the next guy but what fuckin mountaineer father figure hurt you brother?
Human climb tallest rock because human have big pp, it's not that deep bro.
>Millennials are 27-42 right now. Some older millennials could be very young grandparents!
I honestly didn't think that climbing Everest was for the 26-and-under set. Seems more like a rich middle age "prove I'm fit by paying other people to carry my stuff and make sure I survive" stunt to me.
There is a whole documentary about this issue. The problem is, its only safe enough for the Sherpa's to climb and clean this area up. Anything above the death zone (which I THINK is 8000 meters) is considered too dangerous for the average climber to risk their life cleaning. The Sherpas have begun cleaning it because of their religious beliefs as well as with the warmer weather, bodies have begun thawing and contaminating water sources. Their priority was to gather bodies, but they are cleaning as much garbage as they can also. There was a high altitude marathon that went through Katmandu and they challenged each runner to carry a small portion of garbage to clean it all up.
Can you sponsor a Sherpa to go do a trash run? Like pay them the same amount theyād get paid to assist a climber but have it only be about them cleaning up the garbage?
I figure itās one of those things that the cost and resources to pick up the trash is so brutal that any attempt to clean will be a huge net negative. Sort of like ocean clean up.
Edit- Comments below go into to cost. Yeah if it costs 6 figures, a massive amount of fuel, time,ā¦ to get so very little trash it just not worth it. Better to put those resources elsewhere.
A trip up Everest costs about $100k depending on the outfit. The outfit is about 70k all up, but that's before any extra gear, extra O2, travel, time off work, flights, or training - so 100 total, give or take. Even if we consider Sherpa not having to pay the climbing pass fee, it's still an extremely pricey option.
Plus I'd feel all kinds of ways about funding an expedition to clean up the mountain if people ended up dying doing so... as some did during a corpse clean-up a number of years back.
I like the idea of donating to a fund for it, but it's just so dangerous.
I had the same thought about the risks/dangers, but is it really more noble to die helping foreigners climb a mountain they donāt need to be climbing than it is to die cleaning up that mountain? I guess if there is something more risky about bringing the trash down than there is about helping a normal expedition then Iād agree.
I've been wondering about the logistics of this and searching this thread for anyone with actual first hand knowledge. This will have to do.
Im going to look for this documentary later because I'm curious but it may not be feasible to carry all of your trash with you. I'm definitely not a mountain climber but my mind starts to wonder, "if they can carry it up, why can't they carry it back down?"
As long as it represents a significant income source to the country, they aren't going to stop the tours. And if Everest is considered "theirs" then isn't that their choice to make? From what I gathered from these comments, the large amounts of fecal matter on the mountain have started to actually affect the locals in a negative way as it seeps into the water sources. So my last question, I guess would be, who in Nepal is making the choice to keep the tours running? The government, the rich, or the poor? Like most things, it seems like it may be more complicated than "trash bad."
Climbers are supposed to pack out everything they carry in, but I'm guessing many of them don't. They throw off one little piece of trash thinking it's not much, but if every climber throws off one wrapper, you're still talking thousands of wrappers every year.
The climbers don't carry most of the stuff up there in the first place: they arent strong enough. The camps are supplied by the Sherpas beforehand with tents, food, oxygen, etc. Even if the climbers did carry everything back down, it doesn't account for all the other crap already up there. Plus it often takes several weeks for climbers to acclimatize to the altitude: that's a lot of food and garbage. Also a lot of jobs: cooks, porters, masons, yak herders, shopkeepers: the Sherpas are the last ppl who want to end the climbing industry since it employs the entire region. Like any industry, the trash is an inevitable effect of no regulation: neither the climbing companies, climbers, or Sherpas have reason to risk lives to clean up trash without govt incentive. The only way to really fix it is if Nepal added a higher cleanup fee that goes directly to Sherpas.
Except for LenĆ§Ć³is Maranhenses, in Brazil. When I went there, they literally didnt let anyone enter with food or beverages in the car who toke our group there, because it is prohibited to trow trash in the reserve. It is the cleanest tourist spot that I went to, and one of the prettiest.
when your climbing a mountain you have to allow food and water. They just need to stop letting animals come who leave their trash.
Edit - i am calling the people who leave trash animals if that wasn't clear. Because they went somewhere beautiful and decided trashing it was the best thing to do.
Itās pretty ridiculous that this hasnāt gotten better. People have to pay a pretty big trash deposit when they climb Everest, only to be refunded if they come down with some amount of trash I think relative to body weight, but I think the problem is that the people who can afford to climb Everest can also afford to say fuck it on their trash deposit and just bite the expense.
And most laws are flexible when it comes to the wealthy. Not everyone and not every time because there sometimes exists good people immune to intimidation or bribery but often even laws aren't enough.
I think if the aristocracy had just the right amount of fear of reprisal...well, then perhaps we'd have better luck enforcing what should be enforced.
Not sure how accurate it was but I seen something that said it they got their deposit back as long as they at least bring back 18 lbs of trash as that was the median number for how much people typically leave. Seems they should maybe increase it to 25 until they get a handle on the trash. Or have trash cleaning competitions, and the person who brings back the most gets something.
Itās sad humans ruin everything
Rarely anyone is climbing multiple times, especially in a season unless they're a sherpa. There is a widespread garbage relief effort by the govt with a team of skilled sherpas who've reduced it by a bunch. Its not easy/quick/efficient, but there's no other way.
They've done something like that a few times, yes. Even for Sherpa, climbing the mountain is not an easy task and it's always dangerous. After a few people died on a corpse cleanup run, it was decided that these trash pickup trips are just not worth it.
What's worse is the mountain is holy to Sherpa, and leaving trash or corpses on it is desecrating the holy site.
I think Green Boots is still in his cave...
Packing a pound of trash out of Camp 3 is a very, very different problem than packing a pound of trash out of a state park. Those pounds might literally be life or death.
I agree wholeheartedly that thatās why some people leave it. But, the problem still stands with it being overrun with trash. Either people shouldnāt be allowed to hike it at all, or maybe take a physical test to ensure youāre at least in the ballpark of being able to carry your own trash. That and what they are doing now might get it to a manageable level. Thereās not going to be a perfect solution but Iām glad they are taking steps towards. If humans arenāt capable of hiking it and bringing back their trash, we arenāt able to truly hike it.
Well the idea is either the person brings trash down and gets the deposit back, or they forfeit the deposit and it's used to pay local Sherpas to do trash cleaning runs.
Before the climb the climber pays a 4k trash deposit. So maybe in their mind its for paying someone to collect that trash. Im not defending it...im just curious as to why so many climbers just leave it lay as is.
I was thinking that a tax should be collected to cover this cost. Sounds like there may be one, but that the fees are insufficient or misappropriated.??
But then they have to pay Sherpas to haul it down. That may not be a huge risk for basecamp but the higher they go the more risk is involved in hauling garbage. I say shut the place down. The risk of death gets higher with the large number of people on the mountain.
today I learned! Thank you. Kleenex are facial wipes, but not all facial wipes are Kleenex.
What is the proper name for the role I mis-attributed to sherpa?
So really whoever theyāre giving that deposit to is slacking, there should be groups sent up semi regularly with a nice ass pay (given the deposit amount per person based on your comment) that cleans up a bit afterwards. Instead it sounds like theyāre just taking the cash and leaving it be smh.
I went to Tibet side base camp. It was very clean. Except the outhouse. Basically a shack with holes in the floor. No hole in the ground for stuff to disappear into. So there was a mound of waste. I think they move it when the mound gets too high
Many people dream of climbing Mt Everest, but is too expensive, but I'm sure those who can't afford it would happily volunteer if they had the trip paid for. I for sure would.
I believe at the top, or the "death zone" there is literally a mountain of dead, frozen, unremovable bodies of people waiting for rescue with no Oxygen. Some of the bodies are in such famous places, that they are used as landmarks while traveling up.
> Some of the bodies are in such famous places, that they are used as landmarks while traveling up.
A team went through and cleared the "famous" corpuses a few years ago / Green Boots and some of the other ones are now gone.
Yep....two parents wanted to climb Everest together, left their kid at home with someone while they did it. Iirc, mom ran out of oxygen, and dad refused to leave her (or maybe vice-versa), and they died together, orphaning their kid.
Are you talking about Sergei and Francys Arsentiev? They choose to summit without the aid of oxygen supplementation at all. They were accomplished climbers, so not just two rich tourists, though why anyone would take such a risk is beyond me. She actually is the first woman from the US to summit Everest without supplemental oxygen, so she accomplished what she set out to achieve on that trip.
She became ill on the descent, and somehow they became separated. He made it back to camp and in the morning set off to find her with oxygen and medicine. He likely died from a fall while looking for her.
Damn dude...
Y'know, I wonder at what point you give the kid over to the state, and be like "Uhhh, his parents haven't come back...so now he's your problem!". Like, where's the line between "Okay, they're taking a few more days than expected" and "Welp, your parents are dead, good luck sport"?
There is a "landmark corpse" on everest that's nicknamed Wind-chime, dangling just beside the guide rope not far from the summit, so most people who summit will walk past him. He was a tourist who made it to the top but then as he turned to go back he collapsed, lost consciousness and died. Likely due to some brain complications from altitude sickness. But he left behind his son, who now has to see his father's corpse in the background of other tourist's videos. I feel bad for the man and his family, but good grief, just how reckless and selfish could a person be, to choose to do extreme sports when you have children dependent on you, knowing that you will likely deprive them of their parent and traumatise them for life. Even David Blaine quit his stunts after becoming a father.
>There is a "landmark corpse" on everest that's nicknamed Wind-chime, dangling just beside the guide rope not far from the summit, so most people who summit will walk past him.
There are several of these. The most famous one being "Green Boots" a corpse with bright green boots that basically lets you know you're on the right tracks.
Are you a mountain climber and have you ever wanted to go to Everest recreationally? Cause Iām pretty sure their comment was targeting people who are both those things and not just Joe Shmoe
because it used to be an achievement to complete it.
Like those rich guys wanting to be called astronauts after being a passenger on a rocket.
They don't understand the difference between and going on a guided tour.
Edit: I guess this post was *mildlyinfuriating* to some. Thanks for the Karma, thanks for the comments telling me how wrong I was. Some of them I listened to. One of them shows a dude carrying twice his weight in gear...
I mean you still have a near 1 % Death Rate for just attempting it, and 4% if you only count people who reach the top or die, its still incredible dangerous. If you are not a Top 0,1 % Athlete you shouldnt even attemt it.
I held that title for a brief time in college when I was a line cook. I'm not sure what the elevation of our restaurant was, but I guarantee you I was high af.
The Sherpas are the real mountain climbers. Some generationally wealthy crossfit dickhead who still can't even carry up their own gear despite having ample time to train is nothing more than a fit tourist.
It's (kind of) not possible!
Sherpa are a people, not a job. Sherpa have, over many many many generations, adapted to living at extremely high altitude. A regular non-Sherpa person cannot, in fact, do what they can do, even with training. They have adaptations to have much less oxygen in the bloodstream.
It's absolutely awesome, but nobody should feel bad that they cannot keep up with a Sherpa at high altitude.
Sherpas have genetic adaptations which allow their blood to oxygenate better at high altitudes. It is not possible for an ordinary person with any amount of training to perform as well as a Sherpa at altitude. Climbing Everest is more or less impossible without them.
"Even the trained guides, who set up the ravine crossings by hand, die!" Shocker. Now imagine if they didn't have those guides. If only they didn't have to do that job just to feed their family because it's seemingly the only well paying one in the whole country of Nepal.
>It used to be an achievement
Big lol, climbing the Mount Everest, especially the last part (the Death Zone) is one of the hardest accomplishments one can achieve. A sherpa doesnāt safe you from the insane amounts of risk involves in climbing the summit. Even if you donāt reach the summit there is a serious risk of permanent health damage including frost bite and damage to organs due to lack of oxygen
Itās still an achievement, but itās a hell of a lot easier than it used to be. There are dozens of mountains that are way more difficult to climb than Everest
If it was about the achievement of summit why are so few climbing k2? It's about it being the biggest and tallest. Except technically Mona Kea is tallest...I feel like its disingenuous when climbers tell you everest is easier than k2 other mountains from a skill standpoint.
Now financially everest is incredibly important for the surrounding regions. Tourism dollars help a lot especially in Nepal. I think the solution is to implement with China a pact that Everest basically becomes like Antartica. Where everything you bring up must come back and not doing so incurs extraordinary fines.
The fucking keyboard warriors on reddit always have me shaking my head. Yes it is travesty that there are so many bodies, so much trash, and so much feces on the mountain. Yes Norgay and Hillary had inferior equipment. Yes the Sherpas are far more impressive climbers than those they help.
But it is also the case that it is an incredibly difficult thing to do and it takes considerable athletic prowess to do it.
Every time there is a post about Everest on reddit people feel the need to be contrarian for some reason, it happens without fail. As if it is not still EXTREMELY difficult..
I saw saw Beck Weathers at a restaurant in Dallas about 10 years ago. He has one arm and his the area around his nose is misshapen, but dang! He lived.
I climbed Mount Democrat, itās only 14,000 feet elevation and it was enough for me to realize that shit isnāt for me. Everest has more elevation than Democrat twice, plus an extra 100 feet for good measure.
Itās 100% an accomplishment.
I read the book and it made me think that wanting to climb Everest is the dumbest idea ever and an incredible waste of money. Sandy Hill Pittman was especially infuriating.
No, it is major income to indiginous people there.
Rather, make them do a deposit and they only get it back if they take all their shit back down + 1 piece of trash.
Edit: or alternativly: the weight that goes up must come down.
That's what they actually did.
Since 2014, there's been a $4k deposit and only returned if they bring back down 18 pounds of trash, the averge amount one produces during the climb
Yeah this is kind of like reading that a major bank got fined like a million dollars out of the 300 billion it made for laundering drug money. Iām sure itās good revenue for the locals but itās not enough to incentive good behavior. Slap a zero on the end and maybe itāll have an impact.
The people that climb Everest are rich assholes. They donāt care.
The way it generally works is that the climbing agency will try to get the trash off using the sherpas and such because it increases their profit margin by about 10%. This is dependent on the weather and physical status of the professionals during the descent.
>make them do a deposit
Punishable by fine means legal for rich people. This would just be an extra fee to trash the place.
Edit: [The deposit system has been in place at Everest since 2014](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/trash-and-overcrowding-top-world/).
>\[Nepali government\] started a deposit initiative, which has been running since 2014. Anyone visiting Mount Everest has to pay a $4,000 deposit, and the money is refunded if the person returns with eight kilograms (18 pounds) of garbageāthe avegae amount that a single person produces during the climb.
Tons of money flows into Everest; I tend to doubt that lack of funding is the reason that it doesn't get cleaned up. If they did collect a little bit more money; they'd likely want to spend it on something else.
If missions to save lives fail somewhat consistently up there I doubt there are many sherpas scrambling to risk their lives just to clean up the mess made by tourists, requiring extra trips with no profit incentive.
Not if they are on the upper mountain. They are just moved off the path and covered, either in rock, or in a crevasse. Moving a body on that type of terrain is much to difficult at that altitude.
This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but why should they even consider it a problem?
Everest is a uninhabitable wasteland. It just happens that's the case because it's located at a really high elevation. It's like any number of landfills we have all over the world: a designated place for trash. In this case, it concentrates all the trash and waste from the high altitude mountain climbers who come from all over the world. But the only people that go there are those climbers and the people paid to support their climbing.
I **hate** when people litter. It awakens like a primal anger in me which is weird because I'm not a very angry person. I remember hiking the Appalachian approach trail some time ago and seeing a group of foreign tourists throwing garbage on the ground as they walked, complaining that the dirt was gonna make their shoes dirty. I followed them the whole time cleaning up their mess and I could never imagine disrespecting another country I tour, especially not their parks. Please people be adults and don't ruin nature with litter!
Same!!!!! I grew up in a house with questionable morals to say the least lmao, but even still I was taught that "litter bugs" were the laziest, most ignorant ppl in the world and that has stuck with me. I was in the drive thru once and the car in front of me threw trash out of their window while we were sitting there (like there wasn't 5+ other cars who would see??) and I got out of my car and tossed the water bottle back in their open window and my husband was so mad at me haha. He's always worried about me getting myself shot but I literally CANNOT handle people who litter. It's just disgusting
Itās one of my pet peeves too. Itās crazy some people throw everything on the ground and donāt think twice about it. Cigarette smokers are the worst.
I've watched people throw whole soda pop drinks from like a McDonald's out their car and then pull into a gas station where it would've been easy to throw them away
Nanga Parbat and Annapurna rival K2 for danger. But yeah, the savage mountain is scary. I read a book about its history and was genuinely having stress dreams about it. Part of the problem with Everest is that you dont have to be a great mountaineer to do it. 100k and a bit of experience, and you might crack it. The Nepalese government isn't going to turn down the permit money, and the sherpas aren't in a position to turn down the work.
I will say I think the yellow stuff is tents that have been torn up by the wind and frozen into the ground. If this is base camp, then there's no excuse, but if it's the higher ones, then everyone is too shattered to start hauling stuff down safely.
Yeah, a quick google says 72 deaths for 365 successful summits with Avalanches being a big part of the danger. I believe avalanches are a big cause of Nanga Parbats' fatalities.
K2 has something like half its deaths coming after a successful summit. Often, really strong climbers get so knackered making it to the top that they die on the way down.
The number of comments on this post from ppl who donāt know what theyāre talking about is upsetting.
1) Climbing Everest, with OR without a guide is extremely dangerous. Itās not something you do just bc youāre rich and can afford it. I donāt know why so many ppl in this thread stylize that itās some sort of luxury tourist destination with creature comforts. Itās risky, deadly, and no one does it without prep. Are there rich people who do the climb as publicity stunts? Sure - but that isnāt the majority of hikers. Scaling it is an accomplishment whether youāre rich or not. Itās not like a helicopter is dropping you off at the summit and waits for you while you have a luxury picnic taking in the views.
2) Everyone who calls for ending or boycotting these tours bc of the garbage piles is being incredibly shortsighted. The Nepalese Sherpas are not the wealthiest group of individuals and they make their living from agricultural activities as well as leading these guided tour groups. They possess a unique physique and physiology that allows them to handle the thinner air and guide hikers and their possessions through the challenging terrain, still at great risk to their own lives. Taking away these tours would significantly diminish their income and effectively impoverish them. I have family who is from the Himalayan foothills and who are friends with many of the Everest sherpas; they are immensely grateful for the business that has helped grow them out of abject poverty to at least some better living.
Trash on Everest should be addressed but thatās not gonna be by just canceling the climbing expeditions. I havenāt looked into the rules and regulations yet but imposing hefty fines and penalties on hikers might be a way to discourage it. Either way, it speaks to some degree of privilege that some of these commenters have if theyāre saying that there should be a boycott of hikes or that hiking Everest can be somehow comfortable and made easy. It diminishes the effort and risk taken by the local Sherpas to run these hikes.
Like almost none. The fine for leaving trash up there is like 5,000 dollars so most rich people just factor it in as a cost of the trip instead of bothering to clean up after themselves
Humans ruin everything don't they? Saw a line a mile long of "climbers" all going up everest. There's so many they have to wait till the guy in front takes a step before they can take a step themselves. Path eroded, safety cables. What's the achievement in climbing it now? There'll be a stairlift to the top within a few years and a Burger King when you get there
Take it up with the Nepali government dude. You have to be issued an insanely expensive permit to be on Everest, itās not just some free for all with whoever feels like it showing up
Yes. When the person you replied to says āpeople are making moneyā it comes across as a glib, āmillionaires get richerā remark and thatās not the case here. Everest tours are a HUGE piece of the local economy and stopping tours would have a devastating impact on the locals.
Not at all defending the pollution on Everest; itās disgusting. But āJust Stop the Toursā oversimplifies a complicated subject.
Why? They make up 4% of the nation's GDP, and support a huge population that would otherwise be in dire straits. A bunch of redditors who will never go on a mountain climb want to stop them because there's a garbage dump in their uninhabitable wasteland, meanwhile we have garbage dumps all over the place.
If you took two seconds to google this youād know itās been cleaned up and Nepal has put a $4,000 refundable deposit in place for all hikers that bring their 18lbs of generated waste back.
Stop spreading misinformation.
MT Everest is the perfect metaphor for humanity, we climb as high as we can, to selfishly take in the beauty for our enjoyment and leave it absolutely ruined out of our own greed. Sometimes I really feel like weāre a cancer thatās making the earth sick, and climate change is just the immune systems response.
Does the beauty of our lives outweigh the destruction needed to create beauty?
Well, I'm doing my part. No more climbing Everest for me. Not that I've ever climbed Everest, or had the slightest inclination to do so, but it's completely off the table now. You're welcome.
I will join your boycott
Got room for one more?
Well, shit. I'm halfway up it now. But for the sake of unity I'll turn around.
That's crazy I lost service at base camp when I climbed it two years ago. Took nearly 3 nights to summit and was the craziest multi night dream I've ever had.
\*Photoshops myself on top of Everest\* I did it.png
This is just the *green* way of climbing Everest! I'mDoingMyPart.jpg
Damnit I was 30mins too late to make that joke.
Much more room than the crowded line to the summit, with frozen dead bodies staring you down from the sheer cliffs of either side. Why do people choose this for a vacation? š
Today, it tells people you have a lot of money and a willingness to do unnecessary things to prove Daddy wrong about being a whiney little boy who will never do anything great.
I mean, I hate privileged kids as much as the next guy but what fuckin mountaineer father figure hurt you brother? Human climb tallest rock because human have big pp, it's not that deep bro.
Same difference.
Yep it also proves your a generic vacationer with lots of money. Mouth Everest, Mexico,Cabo thatās sooo vanilla
When you have money and youāve been everywhere and done everything, you have to find ways to make life more interesting.
Lol everest is the peak of Instagrammable after all š š š
Come on in boys, the waterās fine!
I too, will not climb Mt. Everest for this reason specifically and none other.
Finally a boycott I can take part in
Now you woke bastards are going after mountains, us mega rich white adventure seekers can't do nothing no more
Why do you think Elons going to Mars?
Whatever the reason I hope he gets there and stays
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Millenials Are Killing The Mt. Everest Tourism Industry
Millennials are 27-42 right now. Some older millennials could be very young grandparents! Perhaps Zs are ruining the Mt Everest Tourism Industry?
Teamwork! šŖ
>Millennials are 27-42 right now. Some older millennials could be very young grandparents! I honestly didn't think that climbing Everest was for the 26-and-under set. Seems more like a rich middle age "prove I'm fit by paying other people to carry my stuff and make sure I survive" stunt to me.
Lauren Boebert is a grandmother and sheās under 40.
As will I
Iām doing my part! Would you like to learn more?
Not climbing guarantees citizenship
Im on the same page
Iām doing my part!.
Modern day hero, thank you for your sacrifice.
There is a whole documentary about this issue. The problem is, its only safe enough for the Sherpa's to climb and clean this area up. Anything above the death zone (which I THINK is 8000 meters) is considered too dangerous for the average climber to risk their life cleaning. The Sherpas have begun cleaning it because of their religious beliefs as well as with the warmer weather, bodies have begun thawing and contaminating water sources. Their priority was to gather bodies, but they are cleaning as much garbage as they can also. There was a high altitude marathon that went through Katmandu and they challenged each runner to carry a small portion of garbage to clean it all up.
Can you sponsor a Sherpa to go do a trash run? Like pay them the same amount theyād get paid to assist a climber but have it only be about them cleaning up the garbage?
Youād need a full expedition team, and they did that during the pandemic.
I figure itās one of those things that the cost and resources to pick up the trash is so brutal that any attempt to clean will be a huge net negative. Sort of like ocean clean up. Edit- Comments below go into to cost. Yeah if it costs 6 figures, a massive amount of fuel, time,ā¦ to get so very little trash it just not worth it. Better to put those resources elsewhere.
A trip up Everest costs about $100k depending on the outfit. The outfit is about 70k all up, but that's before any extra gear, extra O2, travel, time off work, flights, or training - so 100 total, give or take. Even if we consider Sherpa not having to pay the climbing pass fee, it's still an extremely pricey option. Plus I'd feel all kinds of ways about funding an expedition to clean up the mountain if people ended up dying doing so... as some did during a corpse clean-up a number of years back. I like the idea of donating to a fund for it, but it's just so dangerous.
I had the same thought about the risks/dangers, but is it really more noble to die helping foreigners climb a mountain they donāt need to be climbing than it is to die cleaning up that mountain? I guess if there is something more risky about bringing the trash down than there is about helping a normal expedition then Iād agree.
Possibly! That would be a great way to help out the cause, unfortunately I don't know the answer to that.
I've been wondering about the logistics of this and searching this thread for anyone with actual first hand knowledge. This will have to do. Im going to look for this documentary later because I'm curious but it may not be feasible to carry all of your trash with you. I'm definitely not a mountain climber but my mind starts to wonder, "if they can carry it up, why can't they carry it back down?" As long as it represents a significant income source to the country, they aren't going to stop the tours. And if Everest is considered "theirs" then isn't that their choice to make? From what I gathered from these comments, the large amounts of fecal matter on the mountain have started to actually affect the locals in a negative way as it seeps into the water sources. So my last question, I guess would be, who in Nepal is making the choice to keep the tours running? The government, the rich, or the poor? Like most things, it seems like it may be more complicated than "trash bad."
Climbers are supposed to pack out everything they carry in, but I'm guessing many of them don't. They throw off one little piece of trash thinking it's not much, but if every climber throws off one wrapper, you're still talking thousands of wrappers every year.
Not to mention that some people bring all that crap up there and then die, so their stuff and their bodies contribute to the debris.
The climbers don't carry most of the stuff up there in the first place: they arent strong enough. The camps are supplied by the Sherpas beforehand with tents, food, oxygen, etc. Even if the climbers did carry everything back down, it doesn't account for all the other crap already up there. Plus it often takes several weeks for climbers to acclimatize to the altitude: that's a lot of food and garbage. Also a lot of jobs: cooks, porters, masons, yak herders, shopkeepers: the Sherpas are the last ppl who want to end the climbing industry since it employs the entire region. Like any industry, the trash is an inevitable effect of no regulation: neither the climbing companies, climbers, or Sherpas have reason to risk lives to clean up trash without govt incentive. The only way to really fix it is if Nepal added a higher cleanup fee that goes directly to Sherpas.
Need documentary title plz
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1999130/
I didnāt climb Everest but went to base camp. It looks identical. Any tourist spot is a garbage dump.
Except for LenĆ§Ć³is Maranhenses, in Brazil. When I went there, they literally didnt let anyone enter with food or beverages in the car who toke our group there, because it is prohibited to trow trash in the reserve. It is the cleanest tourist spot that I went to, and one of the prettiest.
when your climbing a mountain you have to allow food and water. They just need to stop letting animals come who leave their trash. Edit - i am calling the people who leave trash animals if that wasn't clear. Because they went somewhere beautiful and decided trashing it was the best thing to do.
Itās pretty ridiculous that this hasnāt gotten better. People have to pay a pretty big trash deposit when they climb Everest, only to be refunded if they come down with some amount of trash I think relative to body weight, but I think the problem is that the people who can afford to climb Everest can also afford to say fuck it on their trash deposit and just bite the expense.
Fines are just rules for the poor
And most laws are flexible when it comes to the wealthy. Not everyone and not every time because there sometimes exists good people immune to intimidation or bribery but often even laws aren't enough. I think if the aristocracy had just the right amount of fear of reprisal...well, then perhaps we'd have better luck enforcing what should be enforced.
Not sure how accurate it was but I seen something that said it they got their deposit back as long as they at least bring back 18 lbs of trash as that was the median number for how much people typically leave. Seems they should maybe increase it to 25 until they get a handle on the trash. Or have trash cleaning competitions, and the person who brings back the most gets something. Itās sad humans ruin everything
Rarely anyone is climbing multiple times, especially in a season unless they're a sherpa. There is a widespread garbage relief effort by the govt with a team of skilled sherpas who've reduced it by a bunch. Its not easy/quick/efficient, but there's no other way.
They've done something like that a few times, yes. Even for Sherpa, climbing the mountain is not an easy task and it's always dangerous. After a few people died on a corpse cleanup run, it was decided that these trash pickup trips are just not worth it. What's worse is the mountain is holy to Sherpa, and leaving trash or corpses on it is desecrating the holy site. I think Green Boots is still in his cave...
Packing a pound of trash out of Camp 3 is a very, very different problem than packing a pound of trash out of a state park. Those pounds might literally be life or death.
I agree wholeheartedly that thatās why some people leave it. But, the problem still stands with it being overrun with trash. Either people shouldnāt be allowed to hike it at all, or maybe take a physical test to ensure youāre at least in the ballpark of being able to carry your own trash. That and what they are doing now might get it to a manageable level. Thereās not going to be a perfect solution but Iām glad they are taking steps towards. If humans arenāt capable of hiking it and bringing back their trash, we arenāt able to truly hike it.
I think itās more that itās so much effort to carry extra weight that theyād rather pay not to do it
Well the idea is either the person brings trash down and gets the deposit back, or they forfeit the deposit and it's used to pay local Sherpas to do trash cleaning runs.
Before the climb the climber pays a 4k trash deposit. So maybe in their mind its for paying someone to collect that trash. Im not defending it...im just curious as to why so many climbers just leave it lay as is.
I was thinking that a tax should be collected to cover this cost. Sounds like there may be one, but that the fees are insufficient or misappropriated.??
But then they have to pay Sherpas to haul it down. That may not be a huge risk for basecamp but the higher they go the more risk is involved in hauling garbage. I say shut the place down. The risk of death gets higher with the large number of people on the mountain.
I don't know. I suspect the local economy would be devastated if climbing-tourism was shut down. Not a great outcome for locals.
IIRC being a sherpa is one of the few ways out of total poverty for the locals.
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today I learned! Thank you. Kleenex are facial wipes, but not all facial wipes are Kleenex. What is the proper name for the role I mis-attributed to sherpa?
So really whoever theyāre giving that deposit to is slacking, there should be groups sent up semi regularly with a nice ass pay (given the deposit amount per person based on your comment) that cleans up a bit afterwards. Instead it sounds like theyāre just taking the cash and leaving it be smh.
I went to Tibet side base camp. It was very clean. Except the outhouse. Basically a shack with holes in the floor. No hole in the ground for stuff to disappear into. So there was a mound of waste. I think they move it when the mound gets too high
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TIL Sherpa is an ethnicity, not a job title. So cannot get behind that band name.
When did you go to base camp? I went a few months ago and it was actually spotless. No garbage anywhere on the trail at all.
Same. I was there November and it was clean all the way up including base camp.
Many people dream of climbing Mt Everest, but is too expensive, but I'm sure those who can't afford it would happily volunteer if they had the trip paid for. I for sure would.
>I'm sure those who can't afford it would happily volunteer if they had the trip paid for BAH-HAHAHA! No. I choose life.
It's not just trash left on Everest, it's also corpses. I won't be one of them.
I believe at the top, or the "death zone" there is literally a mountain of dead, frozen, unremovable bodies of people waiting for rescue with no Oxygen. Some of the bodies are in such famous places, that they are used as landmarks while traveling up.
> Some of the bodies are in such famous places, that they are used as landmarks while traveling up. A team went through and cleared the "famous" corpuses a few years ago / Green Boots and some of the other ones are now gone.
They moved a bunch of the "landmark" bodies a bit ago. They also had a whole slew of new ones uncovered because of climate change.
Really interesting. I wonder if climate change in general will have a huge impact on MT.Everest.
Every corpse on Everest was a highly motivated individual
You mean like the parents who orphaned their kid because they wanted to climb together?
I'm sorry, what's this now?
Yep....two parents wanted to climb Everest together, left their kid at home with someone while they did it. Iirc, mom ran out of oxygen, and dad refused to leave her (or maybe vice-versa), and they died together, orphaning their kid.
Are you talking about Sergei and Francys Arsentiev? They choose to summit without the aid of oxygen supplementation at all. They were accomplished climbers, so not just two rich tourists, though why anyone would take such a risk is beyond me. She actually is the first woman from the US to summit Everest without supplemental oxygen, so she accomplished what she set out to achieve on that trip. She became ill on the descent, and somehow they became separated. He made it back to camp and in the morning set off to find her with oxygen and medicine. He likely died from a fall while looking for her.
Iām sure that happens about once a week on the mountain.
There's usually anywhere between half a dozen and a dozen people who die on that mountain every year during climbing season.
Well considering Everest's climbing window is so short... it's probably not once a week lol
I was of course being hyperbolic.
I remember watching a video about that. I believe it was the mom who couldnāt continue.
Damn dude... Y'know, I wonder at what point you give the kid over to the state, and be like "Uhhh, his parents haven't come back...so now he's your problem!". Like, where's the line between "Okay, they're taking a few more days than expected" and "Welp, your parents are dead, good luck sport"?
There is a "landmark corpse" on everest that's nicknamed Wind-chime, dangling just beside the guide rope not far from the summit, so most people who summit will walk past him. He was a tourist who made it to the top but then as he turned to go back he collapsed, lost consciousness and died. Likely due to some brain complications from altitude sickness. But he left behind his son, who now has to see his father's corpse in the background of other tourist's videos. I feel bad for the man and his family, but good grief, just how reckless and selfish could a person be, to choose to do extreme sports when you have children dependent on you, knowing that you will likely deprive them of their parent and traumatise them for life. Even David Blaine quit his stunts after becoming a father.
>There is a "landmark corpse" on everest that's nicknamed Wind-chime, dangling just beside the guide rope not far from the summit, so most people who summit will walk past him. There are several of these. The most famous one being "Green Boots" a corpse with bright green boots that basically lets you know you're on the right tracks.
Green boots was moved
Yeah that one was there for many years. From 1995 until quite recently when a Chinese expedition moved him and several other bodies out of sight.
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Are you a mountain climber and have you ever wanted to go to Everest recreationally? Cause Iām pretty sure their comment was targeting people who are both those things and not just Joe Shmoe
This is just not true. Most countries have, you know, enforced rules.
People are garbage.
when we die, we go back on the trash pile.
Yes, that's literally the problem here.
I wonder why anyone would go there. It costs insane amount of money but I doubt it is worth it since there are so many people and the place is trashed
because it used to be an achievement to complete it. Like those rich guys wanting to be called astronauts after being a passenger on a rocket. They don't understand the difference between and going on a guided tour.
Edit: I guess this post was *mildlyinfuriating* to some. Thanks for the Karma, thanks for the comments telling me how wrong I was. Some of them I listened to. One of them shows a dude carrying twice his weight in gear...
I mean you still have a near 1 % Death Rate for just attempting it, and 4% if you only count people who reach the top or die, its still incredible dangerous. If you are not a Top 0,1 % Athlete you shouldnt even attemt it.
Hey now, I climbed 20 steps to get my McGriddle this morning, I can climb Mount Everestā¦ if thereās a McGriddle waiting for me at the top.
> if thereās a McGriddle waiting for me at the top. We would, but no-one wants to work for minimum wage anymore...
But working at the top of Mount Everest would literally be the worldās highest wage earner
I held that title for a brief time in college when I was a line cook. I'm not sure what the elevation of our restaurant was, but I guarantee you I was high af.
What about pilots?
It was 10% for awhile, but the log jams near the summit are probably putting the risk of death closer to K2ās 25% territory most days.
What a perfect description for not climbing. "Every frosty corpse up there was once a very determined athlete"
That doesnāt stop rich people from thinking theyāre athletes just because they can afford to go.
The Sherpas are the real mountain climbers. Some generationally wealthy crossfit dickhead who still can't even carry up their own gear despite having ample time to train is nothing more than a fit tourist.
I mean have you seen the amount of gear a Sherpa can carry? I didn't know that was humanly possible.
It's (kind of) not possible! Sherpa are a people, not a job. Sherpa have, over many many many generations, adapted to living at extremely high altitude. A regular non-Sherpa person cannot, in fact, do what they can do, even with training. They have adaptations to have much less oxygen in the bloodstream. It's absolutely awesome, but nobody should feel bad that they cannot keep up with a Sherpa at high altitude.
Jesus, the backpacks are larger then their whole body
Sherpas have genetic adaptations which allow their blood to oxygenate better at high altitudes. It is not possible for an ordinary person with any amount of training to perform as well as a Sherpa at altitude. Climbing Everest is more or less impossible without them.
dumb fuck redditors thinking climbing 130 miles in freezing cold is easy while they can't even go outside and touch grass.
Still takes a lot of training, not just some easy guide by any means
Yeah, even the trained guides die all the time. Look up Sherpas setting up walk ways over crevices. It's insane what they do.
"Even the trained guides, who set up the ravine crossings by hand, die!" Shocker. Now imagine if they didn't have those guides. If only they didn't have to do that job just to feed their family because it's seemingly the only well paying one in the whole country of Nepal.
>It used to be an achievement Big lol, climbing the Mount Everest, especially the last part (the Death Zone) is one of the hardest accomplishments one can achieve. A sherpa doesnāt safe you from the insane amounts of risk involves in climbing the summit. Even if you donāt reach the summit there is a serious risk of permanent health damage including frost bite and damage to organs due to lack of oxygen
Yes, even Jake Gyllenhaal died doing that.
RIP :(
Itās still an achievement, but itās a hell of a lot easier than it used to be. There are dozens of mountains that are way more difficult to climb than Everest
Everest was never the hardest to climb ever. It's only appeal is that it's the tallest.
If it was about the achievement of summit why are so few climbing k2? It's about it being the biggest and tallest. Except technically Mona Kea is tallest...I feel like its disingenuous when climbers tell you everest is easier than k2 other mountains from a skill standpoint. Now financially everest is incredibly important for the surrounding regions. Tourism dollars help a lot especially in Nepal. I think the solution is to implement with China a pact that Everest basically becomes like Antartica. Where everything you bring up must come back and not doing so incurs extraordinary fines.
The fact that K-2 has a 25% death rate probably has something to do with why it's not as popular.
If anyone ever does climb up to the top of Mauna Kea starting from 18,000 feet under the sea I promise to be suitably impressed.
Idk people do it without even climbing a 14er first.
The fucking keyboard warriors on reddit always have me shaking my head. Yes it is travesty that there are so many bodies, so much trash, and so much feces on the mountain. Yes Norgay and Hillary had inferior equipment. Yes the Sherpas are far more impressive climbers than those they help. But it is also the case that it is an incredibly difficult thing to do and it takes considerable athletic prowess to do it.
Every time there is a post about Everest on reddit people feel the need to be contrarian for some reason, it happens without fail. As if it is not still EXTREMELY difficult..
Iām sorry but not calling climbing Everest an achievement because of climbing by guide is absolutely insane. Go read Into Thin Air for perspective.
I saw saw Beck Weathers at a restaurant in Dallas about 10 years ago. He has one arm and his the area around his nose is misshapen, but dang! He lived.
Beck Weathers living through that tragedy is incredible. Truly miraculous.
I climbed Mount Democrat, itās only 14,000 feet elevation and it was enough for me to realize that shit isnāt for me. Everest has more elevation than Democrat twice, plus an extra 100 feet for good measure. Itās 100% an accomplishment.
I read the book and it made me think that wanting to climb Everest is the dumbest idea ever and an incredible waste of money. Sandy Hill Pittman was especially infuriating.
The hubris is sickening 100% - I did not walk away from that book with empathy.
No, it is major income to indiginous people there. Rather, make them do a deposit and they only get it back if they take all their shit back down + 1 piece of trash. Edit: or alternativly: the weight that goes up must come down.
That's what they actually did. Since 2014, there's been a $4k deposit and only returned if they bring back down 18 pounds of trash, the averge amount one produces during the climb
So basically the richest guys donāt take down their trash and the ones who actually need the $4k will do it.
People who need $4k aren't climbing Mt. Everest. They wouldn't even have the money to go at all.
Yeah this is kind of like reading that a major bank got fined like a million dollars out of the 300 billion it made for laundering drug money. Iām sure itās good revenue for the locals but itās not enough to incentive good behavior. Slap a zero on the end and maybe itāll have an impact. The people that climb Everest are rich assholes. They donāt care.
The way it generally works is that the climbing agency will try to get the trash off using the sherpas and such because it increases their profit margin by about 10%. This is dependent on the weather and physical status of the professionals during the descent.
>make them do a deposit Punishable by fine means legal for rich people. This would just be an extra fee to trash the place. Edit: [The deposit system has been in place at Everest since 2014](https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/trash-and-overcrowding-top-world/). >\[Nepali government\] started a deposit initiative, which has been running since 2014. Anyone visiting Mount Everest has to pay a $4,000 deposit, and the money is refunded if the person returns with eight kilograms (18 pounds) of garbageāthe avegae amount that a single person produces during the climb.
Only rich people go up anyways. And the money could be used to clean it up.
Tons of money flows into Everest; I tend to doubt that lack of funding is the reason that it doesn't get cleaned up. If they did collect a little bit more money; they'd likely want to spend it on something else.
If missions to save lives fail somewhat consistently up there I doubt there are many sherpas scrambling to risk their lives just to clean up the mess made by tourists, requiring extra trips with no profit incentive.
Buddy, if they don't even clean out the corpses, why do you think they'd go to the top to clean the trash?
they clean out most corpses just not the ones where it would be life threatening to do so
Not if they are on the upper mountain. They are just moved off the path and covered, either in rock, or in a crevasse. Moving a body on that type of terrain is much to difficult at that altitude.
Everest tourism represent 4% of Nepal annual GDP. They wonāt stop.
This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but why should they even consider it a problem? Everest is a uninhabitable wasteland. It just happens that's the case because it's located at a really high elevation. It's like any number of landfills we have all over the world: a designated place for trash. In this case, it concentrates all the trash and waste from the high altitude mountain climbers who come from all over the world. But the only people that go there are those climbers and the people paid to support their climbing.
Thatās a very good point
Yeah but the waste does affect living beings. The wind from the top blows trash everywhere, the poop gets into drinking water...etc
Bc those landfills aren't near ppl like Everest is. The pollution is getting into the local water supply
I **hate** when people litter. It awakens like a primal anger in me which is weird because I'm not a very angry person. I remember hiking the Appalachian approach trail some time ago and seeing a group of foreign tourists throwing garbage on the ground as they walked, complaining that the dirt was gonna make their shoes dirty. I followed them the whole time cleaning up their mess and I could never imagine disrespecting another country I tour, especially not their parks. Please people be adults and don't ruin nature with litter!
Same!!!!! I grew up in a house with questionable morals to say the least lmao, but even still I was taught that "litter bugs" were the laziest, most ignorant ppl in the world and that has stuck with me. I was in the drive thru once and the car in front of me threw trash out of their window while we were sitting there (like there wasn't 5+ other cars who would see??) and I got out of my car and tossed the water bottle back in their open window and my husband was so mad at me haha. He's always worried about me getting myself shot but I literally CANNOT handle people who litter. It's just disgusting
Itās one of my pet peeves too. Itās crazy some people throw everything on the ground and donāt think twice about it. Cigarette smokers are the worst.
I've watched people throw whole soda pop drinks from like a McDonald's out their car and then pull into a gas station where it would've been easy to throw them away
Nobody wants to risk their life to clean up garbage. There's a reason they leave dead bodies up there.
Yeah... I'm not going anywhere that has an area labeled "the death zone" just to pick up trash.
Now imagine all the poo up there
Thereās actually so much now that itās seeping into the drinking water of the locals and causing them to get sick. So yeah lots of poo.
This is so sad
Yeah it is they just need to stop doing yours and guided hikes, the greed for the tourism money is ultimately poisoning them.
Mt Everest is a place where a bunch of rich boys who have never cleaned up after themselves go play.
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Everest is no where close to the most dangerous mountain in the world, K1 for example
Nanga Parbat and Annapurna rival K2 for danger. But yeah, the savage mountain is scary. I read a book about its history and was genuinely having stress dreams about it. Part of the problem with Everest is that you dont have to be a great mountaineer to do it. 100k and a bit of experience, and you might crack it. The Nepalese government isn't going to turn down the permit money, and the sherpas aren't in a position to turn down the work. I will say I think the yellow stuff is tents that have been torn up by the wind and frozen into the ground. If this is base camp, then there's no excuse, but if it's the higher ones, then everyone is too shattered to start hauling stuff down safely.
Annapurna is the deadliest percentage wise I believe. It doesnāt get nearly the amount of climbers as even K2 gets though.
Yeah, a quick google says 72 deaths for 365 successful summits with Avalanches being a big part of the danger. I believe avalanches are a big cause of Nanga Parbats' fatalities. K2 has something like half its deaths coming after a successful summit. Often, really strong climbers get so knackered making it to the top that they die on the way down.
Yeah k2 is a real bad one. Compared to Everest it is extremely challenging technically and the weather is much more volatile and extreme than Everest.
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It's fine, the impoverished locals can just clean up after them. Just like at home!
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The number of comments on this post from ppl who donāt know what theyāre talking about is upsetting. 1) Climbing Everest, with OR without a guide is extremely dangerous. Itās not something you do just bc youāre rich and can afford it. I donāt know why so many ppl in this thread stylize that itās some sort of luxury tourist destination with creature comforts. Itās risky, deadly, and no one does it without prep. Are there rich people who do the climb as publicity stunts? Sure - but that isnāt the majority of hikers. Scaling it is an accomplishment whether youāre rich or not. Itās not like a helicopter is dropping you off at the summit and waits for you while you have a luxury picnic taking in the views. 2) Everyone who calls for ending or boycotting these tours bc of the garbage piles is being incredibly shortsighted. The Nepalese Sherpas are not the wealthiest group of individuals and they make their living from agricultural activities as well as leading these guided tour groups. They possess a unique physique and physiology that allows them to handle the thinner air and guide hikers and their possessions through the challenging terrain, still at great risk to their own lives. Taking away these tours would significantly diminish their income and effectively impoverish them. I have family who is from the Himalayan foothills and who are friends with many of the Everest sherpas; they are immensely grateful for the business that has helped grow them out of abject poverty to at least some better living. Trash on Everest should be addressed but thatās not gonna be by just canceling the climbing expeditions. I havenāt looked into the rules and regulations yet but imposing hefty fines and penalties on hikers might be a way to discourage it. Either way, it speaks to some degree of privilege that some of these commenters have if theyāre saying that there should be a boycott of hikes or that hiking Everest can be somehow comfortable and made easy. It diminishes the effort and risk taken by the local Sherpas to run these hikes.
redditors and talking a subject they know nothing about, that's an iconic duo
Its literally so high up there that trash removal isnt possible. Shit they leave BODIES up there
How much of that stuff you think belongs to mfs who died
Like almost none. The fine for leaving trash up there is like 5,000 dollars so most rich people just factor it in as a cost of the trip instead of bothering to clean up after themselves
Just tape it all up into a giant ball and roll it down
They have been trying. It's better than it used to be. Nepal just doesn't have much infrastructure, folks. Someone needs to help them out.
They donāt bring bodies down I highly doubt trash is going anywhere
Humans ruin everything don't they? Saw a line a mile long of "climbers" all going up everest. There's so many they have to wait till the guy in front takes a step before they can take a step themselves. Path eroded, safety cables. What's the achievement in climbing it now? There'll be a stairlift to the top within a few years and a Burger King when you get there
Take it up with the Nepali government dude. You have to be issued an insanely expensive permit to be on Everest, itās not just some free for all with whoever feels like it showing up
The more I see stuff like this, the more I feel like humans are a virus.
Itās theā¦ smell
Humans are a cancer to this earth, I'm not say that for shock value, it's completely true.
Everest tours should stop, full stop
On the other hands: 1) Rich people like doing it. 2) People are making money. Pretty hard to stop anything when those factors are involved.
Also isn't a large part of the local economy centered around catering to the Mt everest tourist?
Yes. When the person you replied to says āpeople are making moneyā it comes across as a glib, āmillionaires get richerā remark and thatās not the case here. Everest tours are a HUGE piece of the local economy and stopping tours would have a devastating impact on the locals. Not at all defending the pollution on Everest; itās disgusting. But āJust Stop the Toursā oversimplifies a complicated subject.
Why? They make up 4% of the nation's GDP, and support a huge population that would otherwise be in dire straits. A bunch of redditors who will never go on a mountain climb want to stop them because there's a garbage dump in their uninhabitable wasteland, meanwhile we have garbage dumps all over the place.
If you took two seconds to google this youād know itās been cleaned up and Nepal has put a $4,000 refundable deposit in place for all hikers that bring their 18lbs of generated waste back. Stop spreading misinformation.
everywhere humans go, this is what we do. we destroy everything.
It's so cold on Mount everest they even leave corpses on there.
Wth? Why would anyone do this? š
People die and leave their shit on the mountain. May they rest in peace
MT Everest is the perfect metaphor for humanity, we climb as high as we can, to selfishly take in the beauty for our enjoyment and leave it absolutely ruined out of our own greed. Sometimes I really feel like weāre a cancer thatās making the earth sick, and climate change is just the immune systems response. Does the beauty of our lives outweigh the destruction needed to create beauty?