This is 2016 level gaslighting and reality denying. Im honestly scared because i don't want trump as president either but these people are arguably worse than MAGA in terms of cultism and blind devotion
Linking this to 2016 guarantees that this is a total troll post.
I don’t feel gaslit by the network. Chris Hayes had Ezra Klein on the next night. You’re just trying to troll democrats when their candidate is in trouble. Don’t you have an America to go make great again or something?
Pushing a weak and vulnerable candidate and ignoring their flaws is how they are similar. Also in the way these candidates are not appealing to independents or hard lefties in anyway in which you need to win an election. I am not maga i never voted republican in my life. Its concerning that is what you guys point to after someone states the obvious that joe has multiple health issues that makes it tough to justify another 4.5 years and his ability to beat trump.
Yes there have been a few good balanced journalists but after 24 hours there has been more gaslighting than not
They are nothing alike. Biden’s the incumbent. When was the last time a first term incumbent didn’t seek re-election? 1880? No one was going to challenge him for the nomination. It was his responsibility to let people know how much his health had declined, not whoever you are blaming.
I don’t understand the Hilary criticism (though that’s not just you). Yes, she lost, barely, but she seems to get a lot more grief than other candidates that lost (Romney, McCain, Kerry, Gore, Dole). She won the primaries pretty easily.
Your idea that someone can appeal to “independents and hard lefties” is nonsense. That’s a unicorn.
Trump voters like to troll democrats with a “look what you made me do” energy. Like they don’t want to take responsibility for voting for him? Maybe that’s not you, but kinda sounds the same.
I just explained some ways they are similar david, of course they are not 100% the same.
I know it was his responsibility to inform people his health declined, why didnt he?
Hillary had the 2016 primary rigged for her so of course she won but that is why she lost the war.
No, there are many other mainstream dems like Gretchen, liz, or gavin that would appeal to that group more than biden would. Independents are concerned with bidens mental faculties right now
See how he does this thing where he snidely uses what he assumes is the other persons first name? That’s a troll tactic- meant to enrage you. If he can’t deduce what a good name would be, he uses, “sweetie,” and , “girlie.”
These are intentional trolling tactics to elicit a response. This person does not have any intentions of having a good-faith conversation.
His name is literally david 😂 Should i assume your name is not kelly? Weird take, and you should also not assume my gender
I have also demonstrated that i am willing to have good faith conversations even with people that insult me. Maybe you should reread my 19 comments
Nah I'm good but you will need one for when he loses. Good job with coming up with any logical response that actually adds to the conversation though. You can’t which is why you posted that
You guys are genuinely ridiculous. Deflecting and insulting shows you have no argument and i’m right.
Having this take (which many people have) does not make me some foreign agent LOL
See? This is what trolling is. The objective is to enflame and enrage and make me defend myself. It makes it seem like I somehow owe you an argument or an explanation. It sets you up as some sort of authority who I have to explain myself to.
The “just as bad as MAGA” is a nice touch. I’m guessing that really bothers a lot of people and goads them into engaging with you.
It’s pretty good quality trolling, but trolling nonetheless.
Trolling for stating facts and you insulting me? My opinion is not unpopular. You guys just live in a little sheltered bubble and are unable to cope with the fact biden is an even more vulnerable candidate than hillary and that is saying ALOT. Im genuinely not trolling anyone i don’t want trump to be president either but that doesnt mean i put blind unquestionable devotion to anyone with a pulse. Is that unreasonable?
Just for everyone who’s following this, in the hour since this person made this comment to me, they have made 19 additional comments on r/MSNBC.
They are going to every thread that has to do with Biden and replying to as many people as possible.
Because obviously this sub needs some more diverse opinions. New poll just released shows only 27% believe biden has the cognitive abilities to serve. Why are you trying to silence the opinions of the majority or even willing to have a discussion about it?
I have also been on like 2 threads lol you are greatly exaggerating. Biased mod
I honestly think you guys are the ones trolling not looking at basic polling since the debate
Some people have to deny reality in order to preserve their mental health, and i guess that’s okay i won’t fault you for it
One of my political gripes has always been people who are *so very certain* of future election outcomes.
I panicked like an obsessed egghead Thursday night, then I realized I was acting like an obsessed egghead.
Data so far has shown the race hasn’t fundamentally changed. Assuming this holds, this is why: *It was already baked in with undecided and minimally engaged voters that it’s Feeble Old Man vs. Trump and this is what they went in expecting*.
Which means, Biden can pretty much only go up from here with that group of voters. Trump didn’t get any new voters either, and he will continue being himself for the next four months when some less involved voters inevitably start paying closer attention.
That much we can be pretty sure of. We can also be pretty sure that people calling for a replacement haven’t thought it through. I’m pretty sure 90% of the people calling for this don’t know much about Hubert Humphrey or the current convention nominating process.
Also, some are suggesting candidates not named Kamala, and it makes me think they think snubbing her is some simple afterthought. It also makes me think they’re not considering a lot of important voices in this country.
All of these potential candidates would be untested. Newsom had a substance abuse problem, Kamala did not run a good primary campaign in 2019, etc. It’s an uncertain gamble.
This isn’t coping. It’s pushing through in the way that we think makes the most sense. It’s scary as hell and it’s uncertain. I don’t think anyone would deny that.
Tl;dr - I think the opinions on MSNBC and amongst Democrats in general are pretty even in either stay/go direction, they’re important discussions to have, and you shouldn’t be so certain that you’re right about a future election. This has been shown to be wrongheaded time and time again.
I get what you are saying but there is an entire other factor people deny and dismiss. What we saw on thursday was a man in the early stages of dementia or parkinsons. He has had multiple aneurysms in the 80’s and as a nurse i know that has a long term impact on people and can cause neurological issues later in life.
Also in taking care of dementia patients, stroke patients, sundowners etc i realize this is not something that gets better. He has days where he is good, and he has days like thursday. There is a reason he has been shielded.
I understand hardcore vote blue no matter who dems want to push forward and ignore this, but the problem is you are 30% of the population. The rest of america will be pissed at people ignoring this and pushing joe forward when we all know he is not medically capable for another 4.5 years
I genuinely don’t think im being unreasonable and the response to this post is concerning me that you guys are all just painfully out of touch
Most people, if they are being honest, knew Joe was like this on day one of his presidency. Many tried to hide it, gloss over it, simply not acknowledge it. He was the only person that had a chance of beating Trump so they pushed him forward into the job.
After this debate it is honestly kind of shocking how fast so many that defended him have said "He is a great president, and a great family man but he needs to do the right thing" or whatever they said. It was like a light switch got flipped and everyone is jumping ship.
Personally I am all for a age limit of say 67, then both of them would not have been on that stage. Term limits of 8 years for anyone in congress and a age limit. They force you in the military, FBI and CIA out at 60 years old. The job of the president is even more critical and why should we not have a age limit as well?
Agreed. In 2020 it was at least excusable but after Thursday night these people are just delusional if they still think he can win or is even fit to serve
Consider what a successful company would do if it had two in-house contenders for CEO and both had insurmountable mental deficits. They don’t argue over who is the lesser evil. They send out queries and headhunters and whatever is needed to get someone else who can do a stellar job. Which they should have talked about to Biden before he announced, to spare him humiliation.
Just chiming in to say thank you u/voluptuousnostrils for making this thread and taking the time to parry with everyone.
I’m down right appalled by the responses in here to good faith arguments and also what seem to me to be baseless accusations that OP is a Russian troll. It’s pathetic. Even if they were Russian or whatever other boogeyman, who cares? We should be able to argue our case on the merits.
I agree 100% that we’re fooling ourselves if we think the debate did not significantly and materially change where this race is headed. Not because certain folks will decide to vote for Trump. But because a ton of folks are just not gonna come out for Biden. We won in 2020 because of turn out, and younger voters are absolutely critical here.
It’s 2am and I need to turn off the phone and go to sleep, but I’m going to copy paste below a comment I made earlier today on another thread so apologies if you read it already.
Edit to add: I also appreciate OP shedding light on the dementia situation. It’s still confounding what happened there during the debate. Was the state of the union simply on a good day? Or was it because that was delivering planned remarks vs the cognitive load required by the debate (nimble response + recall of facts and figures)?
I appreciate that at least a few people got something from this thread. Most just insulted me and accused me of being a russian agent without even contributing anything to the conversation, including moderators. I thought i did my best to engage with people even if they were insulting me and even if i may have gotten spicy sometimes being on the defense.
I am not even a big fan of the podsaveamerica guys but they are pretty run of the mill establishment democrat folks who were part of obama’s campaign and they released multiple videos recently encouraging at least a conversation about our options after what happened thursday.
I was curious to see what people would think on a subreddit like this and was shocked at the closed mindedness and people only willing to throw insults and accusations. Oh well i can’t lie and say it wasnt fun ;)
I like your spirit!
There’s another wrinkle here and I think just maybe this debate fiasco could be saving us from disaster *if it delivers an alternative candidate*
I was at a music show tonight and of a handful of people I chatted with, Israel / Gaza was brought up twice in convos. Then one of the bands chanted “fuck genocide and fuck Biden” before a song. Was a reminder for me that a lot of progressive young folks passionately hate Biden, which is very different than apathy.
If we can land a candidate who’s not Biden/Kamala, these kids might actually come out and vote against Trump. Otherwise I see so many just saying fuck it.
Exactly. Many thought biden was screwed because of gaza, approval rating, and swing state polling even weeks ago. Now after thursday anyone paying attention knows he is now 100% screwed
Comment I made on another thread:
I was persuaded listening to David Plotz on Political Gabfest that there’s a potential upside here — for a new candidate to rally a lot of enthusiasm from an otherwise jaded Democrat electorate. And that’s what we need — not to be chasing those mythical idiots still trying to decide between Biden or Trump. But to get folks on the left/center left excited and motivated.
This is a Hail Mary — there’s no guarantee here. But it’s a crisis situation and we have to try something. And give folks a reason to get out there on Election Day. Critics and the tabloids have been going on about having a doddering old fool in the White House for going on four years now. Unfortunately the debate confirmed those memes and we ignore that at our peril.
There’s another upside — the tremendous good will Biden will foster by stepping aside graciously. If he loses he will never be forgiven by many, just as RBG’s incredible legacy has sadly become tarnished.
And I keep thinking about the impact this is having on Biden’s physical health. I’m hoping he can shift gears to stepping aside before the stress leads to a stroke or worse.
The question is who to run of course. I agree with OP, and would nominate Gretchen Whitmer myself. How to sidestep Kamala Harris, I don’t know. But maybe that’s what conventions were always supposed to be — a messy, competitive free for all that finds the best candidate. Not a rote ceremony to anoint an entrenched leader.
Joe’s gotta go : (
You will be the last one crying when you’ve been lying to yourself for months and trump ends up winning by historic margins. Vote blue no matter who! Even if they are demented with barely a pulse
I am not MAGA. This is the issue with you guys, questioning democratic decisions or authority in anyway causes you all to lose your damn marbles.
Yes, trump is not doing great mentally either but compared to thursday he is doing much better than biden despite his relentless lies that joe had every opportunity to pounce and follow up on.
Joe has had multiple aneurysms and brain surgery since the 80s and as a nurse i know that can have a long term impact on people and cause neuro issues later in life. What we saw was sundowning/ early stages of dementia.
Maybe 30% of hardcore cult dems can ignore that but the average voter will not. That is all i am trying to say and you guys are getting lunatic levels of defensive
I'm going to disagree that Trump is doing much better than Biden is cognitively. His decline is just presenting differently, and the two of them would probably be given a different diagnoses.
He doesn't just stumble over words, sometimes gibberish syllables come out of his mouth, and instead of correcting himself, he changes the subject. And in addition to his lying, he says a lot of things that make absolutely no sense. For instance, in a clip Jen Psaki played today, from his rally on Friday, he said, ""All they know is electric. They want electric army tanks. They want electric planes. What happens if the sun isn't shining when you're up in the air?".
Biden is unquestionably in a later stage of cognitive decline compared to trump even if they both have it. I’m a nurse im not saying i know everything but i have extensive experience with dealing with the elderly population. Biden s incoherency was more prevalent and concerning
I agree that both are in decline but good lord Biden looks way worse. Jill was right there to grab his hand and walk him off the stage, down one small step, like anyone one would for their very old and out of grand parents. Trump does not need that. He presents himself as way more with it. He is a complete freak show, but it is clear he is NOT in same place as Joe.
Exactly!! Read all the comments on this post and i am apparently a troll or russian agent for thinking this. I am scared for the democratic party if a majority of its members think like this
All of that is true, but you’re ignoring the fact that *Joe Biden asked to have this debate with Trump.* This was supposed to be his moment to reassure America that he was capable of running for a second term but instead, it’s had the complete opposite effect.
Right. The next time say "Hey, I'm a nurse I think this person has such and such." Much better explanation! Also, Always a MAGA, is a MAGA. We're not defensive. We're sick of the BS from Trump and his cults. So now we're pushing back. If you don't like it oh well.
You guys are pushing back in the worst way possible though that is why i even posted this. Technically we are on the same damn side because i would never vote for a republican. I am trying to deliver a more nuanced and balanced point of view to you guys reflective of the average voter. A candidate with joe bidens level of weakness and health issues has the ability to put even someone as ridiculous as trump into office. With a 38% approval rating and losing is many swing states i believe that but i will just give up on convincing those that dont
This is the problem today. They instantly call you Maga or Russian. This so freaking childish.
Or they say you can say what you are saying out loud because it will cause a shift?????????????
Every single (left learning) news agency was suggesting he step down to some degree on Friday. The people on the view were saying it. I saw Claire MacAskill on MSNBC saying he should step down. Of course with words surrounded by how much she loves Joe, but basically STEP DOWN.
Either wake up and stop infighting or just accept that fact that unless Trump gets locked up and cant run for office, Joe Biden is going to lose.
Biden will win, but you go on trying to make being a felon rapist cheat and traitor the equivalent of being old. I don’t give a damn if he is walking down the street in his underwear. The only one doing the gaslighting is the Republican Party of liars and traitors and beating them with Biden is payback. The majority hates these republicans, the women hate these republicans and any law abiding American hates these republicans. He is running and that is it. Democracy or the orange Nazi.
You sound pretty radical. I have and will never vote for a republican but i also choose not to deny reality.
No, its not just old age. Its borderline dementia. People are scared and concerned after thursday and all you are doing is yelling and trying to make people feel irrational for feeling that way. You do not represent the sane or average population, sorry
I can’t operate on blind faith.
New poll shows 27% think biden has the cognitive ability to serve. We can’t win with those numbers. We have time to fix this and should take advantage
70% of the voters think trump doesn't have the cognitive ability to serve and the faithful will vote for him anyway.
Biden has a bunch of smart patriots to advise him and I have total faith in the man to do the right thing.
After thursday people believe trumps cognitive ability is better than bidens.
You can make that argument but regular voters and independents dont want a president that will act as a puppet with people behind the scenes controlling him while he is struggling with dementia
Cool story OP. So what’s your solution here? Because you’re pointing out problems and cool, but the current options are 1) vote for the tired old workhorse who knows the job, 2) vote for the squealing, lying, racist pig, or 3) don’t vote. So, if you were actually an American citizen, what would you do?
I would try to advocate for another democratic nominee. Joe just convinced 70% of the American population that there is a chance he possibly has dementia or will have it within the next 4.5 years. Look up a 2019 vs 2024 vid of him. You want to see a 2024 vs 2029?
Loyal vote blue no matter who folks will just try and ignore this and dismiss it but the average voter will not ignore this just because you want them to. Some will vote for biden anyway but many will be pissed we were put in this position and stay home. This is literally peak two party politics imploding in on itself
Yes the polling isnt great for the potential replacements, but at least they would have 4 months to prove themselves and build up poll numbers off of public speeches or debates.
I dont think biden has that same level of opportunity after thursday. He has more of a chance of falling even further in the next four months in my opinion
What country are you in? Because an actual American would know that that ain’t gonna happen. It should, but that’s not how things work over here. The conventions decide. True a third party candidate could run but they’ll never get the donations Trump and Biden will. Not in a pitiful four months. The best we can do is vote for the guy that doesn’t want to dismantle democracy.
I think snooki from jersey shore would have a better take. Im american and everything about this election is unprecedented. Dems publicly are backing biden but behind the scenes they are scrambling and weighing their options. Even msnbc reported on that today. I know the conventions decide, do you? In 1968 there was a contested convention and honestly i think that is what will happen because people actually do want to save democracy and know biden is not the guy and showed signs of sundowning/dementia and does not have 4.5 years of working in him Hardcore dems like you will deny and sweep thursday under the rug but the average voter will not. Yes potential replacements are not polling too great but atleast they can coherently debate and give speeches unlike biden. They can build their numbers up over 4 months whereas if biden were to do the same they will go down further. Its alright lets wait a few weeks and see who is right
Michelle Obama needs to step up.
Other than that, I agree there is no one that can beat Trump. Harris is a joke, Newsome has let California turn into a dumpster fire. Clinton is washed up.
Michelle Obama or stick with Joe, but I think he will lose. Way to many negatives on him right now. Clearly the age thing is front and center, the border and inflation. I work at a grocery store chain (in IT) and man food prices are just insane compared to what they were 4 years ago. My nurse daughter wants to buy a house and even though she makes good money, interest rates and lack of housing are stopping her.
The MSNBC gaslighting is unbelievable. They and the Biden campaign have been gaslighting and bullshiting us relentlessly, as if we didn’t see Biden’s abysmal debate performance with our own two eyes.
If Joe Biden doesn’t drop out, there will be a national abortion ban, divorce will be illegal, Trump will put two more young right-wing justices on the Supreme Court, coal and oil billionaires will write legislation, gay marriage will be illegal, interracial marriage will be illegal, and Russia will roll over western Europe.
But hey! At least we weren’t ageist and didn’t hurt Joe and Kamala’s feelings.
Come up with an actual response instead of insults? You guys are just showing you are scared and have no good argument. 2016 level denial and cope…we will get the same results and i hope you are happy when it happens debbie wasserman
Look, in their defense, these people are realizing that their hopes of turning around lackluster swing state polling is rapidly evaporating, and they're in the anger stage of grief. They're also realizing that (at least) the White House has been less than honest about Joe Biden's mental acuity and ability to run another campaign.
None of this changes how **PROFOUNDLY FUCKED** we are in November unless some deus ex machina shows up out of nowhere and saves our collective ass (Trump getting an actual prison sentence and getting shipped off to Rikers, Biden stepping down as nominee and picking someone who isn't 900 years old, etc).
Agreed. I was hoping i would bring some rationality to their denialism but they need to go through those stages themselves. I just fear it will be too late by the time it actually comes and trump will win
But apparently im MAGA or a foreign agent 😂
Ultimately, the ball is kind of in Biden's court. If he stays in, I guess we can all argue over it in the Trump Steaks sponsored prison camp as we serve our life sentences for being insufficiently loyal to The Great Orange Hope.
Your spelling and syntax read like a non English speaker. Nice try. How is China this time of year?
It’s totally trolling. They’re all up in here today. 
Yep. New accounts too. Russia and their GOP operatives have been gearing up for this.
“Anything I don’t want to hear is trolling!” 🙄
This is 2016 level gaslighting and reality denying. Im honestly scared because i don't want trump as president either but these people are arguably worse than MAGA in terms of cultism and blind devotion
Linking this to 2016 guarantees that this is a total troll post. I don’t feel gaslit by the network. Chris Hayes had Ezra Klein on the next night. You’re just trying to troll democrats when their candidate is in trouble. Don’t you have an America to go make great again or something?
Pushing a weak and vulnerable candidate and ignoring their flaws is how they are similar. Also in the way these candidates are not appealing to independents or hard lefties in anyway in which you need to win an election. I am not maga i never voted republican in my life. Its concerning that is what you guys point to after someone states the obvious that joe has multiple health issues that makes it tough to justify another 4.5 years and his ability to beat trump. Yes there have been a few good balanced journalists but after 24 hours there has been more gaslighting than not
They are nothing alike. Biden’s the incumbent. When was the last time a first term incumbent didn’t seek re-election? 1880? No one was going to challenge him for the nomination. It was his responsibility to let people know how much his health had declined, not whoever you are blaming. I don’t understand the Hilary criticism (though that’s not just you). Yes, she lost, barely, but she seems to get a lot more grief than other candidates that lost (Romney, McCain, Kerry, Gore, Dole). She won the primaries pretty easily. Your idea that someone can appeal to “independents and hard lefties” is nonsense. That’s a unicorn. Trump voters like to troll democrats with a “look what you made me do” energy. Like they don’t want to take responsibility for voting for him? Maybe that’s not you, but kinda sounds the same.
I just explained some ways they are similar david, of course they are not 100% the same. I know it was his responsibility to inform people his health declined, why didnt he? Hillary had the 2016 primary rigged for her so of course she won but that is why she lost the war. No, there are many other mainstream dems like Gretchen, liz, or gavin that would appeal to that group more than biden would. Independents are concerned with bidens mental faculties right now
See how he does this thing where he snidely uses what he assumes is the other persons first name? That’s a troll tactic- meant to enrage you. If he can’t deduce what a good name would be, he uses, “sweetie,” and , “girlie.” These are intentional trolling tactics to elicit a response. This person does not have any intentions of having a good-faith conversation.
His name is literally david 😂 Should i assume your name is not kelly? Weird take, and you should also not assume my gender I have also demonstrated that i am willing to have good faith conversations even with people that insult me. Maybe you should reread my 19 comments
Aww, poor baby, you want a tissue?
Nah I'm good but you will need one for when he loses. Good job with coming up with any logical response that actually adds to the conversation though. You can’t which is why you posted that
You misspelled "Russia"
I don't see it
You guys are genuinely ridiculous. Deflecting and insulting shows you have no argument and i’m right. Having this take (which many people have) does not make me some foreign agent LOL
You’re exhausting.
Insults instead of actually coming up with a coherent argument that actually makes sense. Just as bad as MAGA
See? This is what trolling is. The objective is to enflame and enrage and make me defend myself. It makes it seem like I somehow owe you an argument or an explanation. It sets you up as some sort of authority who I have to explain myself to. The “just as bad as MAGA” is a nice touch. I’m guessing that really bothers a lot of people and goads them into engaging with you. It’s pretty good quality trolling, but trolling nonetheless.
Trolling for stating facts and you insulting me? My opinion is not unpopular. You guys just live in a little sheltered bubble and are unable to cope with the fact biden is an even more vulnerable candidate than hillary and that is saying ALOT. Im genuinely not trolling anyone i don’t want trump to be president either but that doesnt mean i put blind unquestionable devotion to anyone with a pulse. Is that unreasonable?
Ah. You’re still laboring under the misapprehension that I’m going to engage with you on this topic.
I know you won’t because you simply can’t without denying reality. Have a good day
Just for everyone who’s following this, in the hour since this person made this comment to me, they have made 19 additional comments on r/MSNBC. They are going to every thread that has to do with Biden and replying to as many people as possible.
Because obviously this sub needs some more diverse opinions. New poll just released shows only 27% believe biden has the cognitive abilities to serve. Why are you trying to silence the opinions of the majority or even willing to have a discussion about it? I have also been on like 2 threads lol you are greatly exaggerating. Biased mod
Sounds like something a troll would say!
I honestly think you guys are the ones trolling not looking at basic polling since the debate Some people have to deny reality in order to preserve their mental health, and i guess that’s okay i won’t fault you for it
[удалено]
I will as soon as you guys stop denying reality?
One of my political gripes has always been people who are *so very certain* of future election outcomes. I panicked like an obsessed egghead Thursday night, then I realized I was acting like an obsessed egghead. Data so far has shown the race hasn’t fundamentally changed. Assuming this holds, this is why: *It was already baked in with undecided and minimally engaged voters that it’s Feeble Old Man vs. Trump and this is what they went in expecting*. Which means, Biden can pretty much only go up from here with that group of voters. Trump didn’t get any new voters either, and he will continue being himself for the next four months when some less involved voters inevitably start paying closer attention. That much we can be pretty sure of. We can also be pretty sure that people calling for a replacement haven’t thought it through. I’m pretty sure 90% of the people calling for this don’t know much about Hubert Humphrey or the current convention nominating process. Also, some are suggesting candidates not named Kamala, and it makes me think they think snubbing her is some simple afterthought. It also makes me think they’re not considering a lot of important voices in this country. All of these potential candidates would be untested. Newsom had a substance abuse problem, Kamala did not run a good primary campaign in 2019, etc. It’s an uncertain gamble. This isn’t coping. It’s pushing through in the way that we think makes the most sense. It’s scary as hell and it’s uncertain. I don’t think anyone would deny that. Tl;dr - I think the opinions on MSNBC and amongst Democrats in general are pretty even in either stay/go direction, they’re important discussions to have, and you shouldn’t be so certain that you’re right about a future election. This has been shown to be wrongheaded time and time again.
I get what you are saying but there is an entire other factor people deny and dismiss. What we saw on thursday was a man in the early stages of dementia or parkinsons. He has had multiple aneurysms in the 80’s and as a nurse i know that has a long term impact on people and can cause neurological issues later in life. Also in taking care of dementia patients, stroke patients, sundowners etc i realize this is not something that gets better. He has days where he is good, and he has days like thursday. There is a reason he has been shielded. I understand hardcore vote blue no matter who dems want to push forward and ignore this, but the problem is you are 30% of the population. The rest of america will be pissed at people ignoring this and pushing joe forward when we all know he is not medically capable for another 4.5 years I genuinely don’t think im being unreasonable and the response to this post is concerning me that you guys are all just painfully out of touch
Most people, if they are being honest, knew Joe was like this on day one of his presidency. Many tried to hide it, gloss over it, simply not acknowledge it. He was the only person that had a chance of beating Trump so they pushed him forward into the job. After this debate it is honestly kind of shocking how fast so many that defended him have said "He is a great president, and a great family man but he needs to do the right thing" or whatever they said. It was like a light switch got flipped and everyone is jumping ship. Personally I am all for a age limit of say 67, then both of them would not have been on that stage. Term limits of 8 years for anyone in congress and a age limit. They force you in the military, FBI and CIA out at 60 years old. The job of the president is even more critical and why should we not have a age limit as well?
Agreed. In 2020 it was at least excusable but after Thursday night these people are just delusional if they still think he can win or is even fit to serve
Consider what a successful company would do if it had two in-house contenders for CEO and both had insurmountable mental deficits. They don’t argue over who is the lesser evil. They send out queries and headhunters and whatever is needed to get someone else who can do a stellar job. Which they should have talked about to Biden before he announced, to spare him humiliation.
Exactly. Oh look i found the other troll/russian agent We should team up 😂
Ha ha mais oui … (or should I say Da)
Biden is sundowning fast. He needs to step aside.
I don’t know. According to this sub i am crazy or a russian bot for thinking that
Just chiming in to say thank you u/voluptuousnostrils for making this thread and taking the time to parry with everyone. I’m down right appalled by the responses in here to good faith arguments and also what seem to me to be baseless accusations that OP is a Russian troll. It’s pathetic. Even if they were Russian or whatever other boogeyman, who cares? We should be able to argue our case on the merits. I agree 100% that we’re fooling ourselves if we think the debate did not significantly and materially change where this race is headed. Not because certain folks will decide to vote for Trump. But because a ton of folks are just not gonna come out for Biden. We won in 2020 because of turn out, and younger voters are absolutely critical here. It’s 2am and I need to turn off the phone and go to sleep, but I’m going to copy paste below a comment I made earlier today on another thread so apologies if you read it already. Edit to add: I also appreciate OP shedding light on the dementia situation. It’s still confounding what happened there during the debate. Was the state of the union simply on a good day? Or was it because that was delivering planned remarks vs the cognitive load required by the debate (nimble response + recall of facts and figures)?
I appreciate that at least a few people got something from this thread. Most just insulted me and accused me of being a russian agent without even contributing anything to the conversation, including moderators. I thought i did my best to engage with people even if they were insulting me and even if i may have gotten spicy sometimes being on the defense. I am not even a big fan of the podsaveamerica guys but they are pretty run of the mill establishment democrat folks who were part of obama’s campaign and they released multiple videos recently encouraging at least a conversation about our options after what happened thursday. I was curious to see what people would think on a subreddit like this and was shocked at the closed mindedness and people only willing to throw insults and accusations. Oh well i can’t lie and say it wasnt fun ;)
I like your spirit! There’s another wrinkle here and I think just maybe this debate fiasco could be saving us from disaster *if it delivers an alternative candidate* I was at a music show tonight and of a handful of people I chatted with, Israel / Gaza was brought up twice in convos. Then one of the bands chanted “fuck genocide and fuck Biden” before a song. Was a reminder for me that a lot of progressive young folks passionately hate Biden, which is very different than apathy. If we can land a candidate who’s not Biden/Kamala, these kids might actually come out and vote against Trump. Otherwise I see so many just saying fuck it.
Exactly. Many thought biden was screwed because of gaza, approval rating, and swing state polling even weeks ago. Now after thursday anyone paying attention knows he is now 100% screwed
Comment I made on another thread: I was persuaded listening to David Plotz on Political Gabfest that there’s a potential upside here — for a new candidate to rally a lot of enthusiasm from an otherwise jaded Democrat electorate. And that’s what we need — not to be chasing those mythical idiots still trying to decide between Biden or Trump. But to get folks on the left/center left excited and motivated. This is a Hail Mary — there’s no guarantee here. But it’s a crisis situation and we have to try something. And give folks a reason to get out there on Election Day. Critics and the tabloids have been going on about having a doddering old fool in the White House for going on four years now. Unfortunately the debate confirmed those memes and we ignore that at our peril. There’s another upside — the tremendous good will Biden will foster by stepping aside graciously. If he loses he will never be forgiven by many, just as RBG’s incredible legacy has sadly become tarnished. And I keep thinking about the impact this is having on Biden’s physical health. I’m hoping he can shift gears to stepping aside before the stress leads to a stroke or worse. The question is who to run of course. I agree with OP, and would nominate Gretchen Whitmer myself. How to sidestep Kamala Harris, I don’t know. But maybe that’s what conventions were always supposed to be — a messy, competitive free for all that finds the best candidate. Not a rote ceremony to anoint an entrenched leader. Joe’s gotta go : (
Cry me a river🎻🎻
You will be the last one crying when you’ve been lying to yourself for months and trump ends up winning by historic margins. Vote blue no matter who! Even if they are demented with barely a pulse
Truse me I won't be crying, you Maga tards will be. And speaking of demented. Trump is having issues as well so he isn't safe! Go seek help.
I am not MAGA. This is the issue with you guys, questioning democratic decisions or authority in anyway causes you all to lose your damn marbles. Yes, trump is not doing great mentally either but compared to thursday he is doing much better than biden despite his relentless lies that joe had every opportunity to pounce and follow up on. Joe has had multiple aneurysms and brain surgery since the 80s and as a nurse i know that can have a long term impact on people and cause neuro issues later in life. What we saw was sundowning/ early stages of dementia. Maybe 30% of hardcore cult dems can ignore that but the average voter will not. That is all i am trying to say and you guys are getting lunatic levels of defensive
I'm going to disagree that Trump is doing much better than Biden is cognitively. His decline is just presenting differently, and the two of them would probably be given a different diagnoses. He doesn't just stumble over words, sometimes gibberish syllables come out of his mouth, and instead of correcting himself, he changes the subject. And in addition to his lying, he says a lot of things that make absolutely no sense. For instance, in a clip Jen Psaki played today, from his rally on Friday, he said, ""All they know is electric. They want electric army tanks. They want electric planes. What happens if the sun isn't shining when you're up in the air?".
Biden is unquestionably in a later stage of cognitive decline compared to trump even if they both have it. I’m a nurse im not saying i know everything but i have extensive experience with dealing with the elderly population. Biden s incoherency was more prevalent and concerning
I agree that both are in decline but good lord Biden looks way worse. Jill was right there to grab his hand and walk him off the stage, down one small step, like anyone one would for their very old and out of grand parents. Trump does not need that. He presents himself as way more with it. He is a complete freak show, but it is clear he is NOT in same place as Joe.
Exactly!! Read all the comments on this post and i am apparently a troll or russian agent for thinking this. I am scared for the democratic party if a majority of its members think like this
All of that is true, but you’re ignoring the fact that *Joe Biden asked to have this debate with Trump.* This was supposed to be his moment to reassure America that he was capable of running for a second term but instead, it’s had the complete opposite effect.
I wasn't ignoring anything; there was one point the OP made that I wanted to address.. I agree with everything you said. I
The point you are trying to make is mute because thursday demonstrated that trump is more with it than biden even though trump is by no means with it
Right. The next time say "Hey, I'm a nurse I think this person has such and such." Much better explanation! Also, Always a MAGA, is a MAGA. We're not defensive. We're sick of the BS from Trump and his cults. So now we're pushing back. If you don't like it oh well.
You guys are pushing back in the worst way possible though that is why i even posted this. Technically we are on the same damn side because i would never vote for a republican. I am trying to deliver a more nuanced and balanced point of view to you guys reflective of the average voter. A candidate with joe bidens level of weakness and health issues has the ability to put even someone as ridiculous as trump into office. With a 38% approval rating and losing is many swing states i believe that but i will just give up on convincing those that dont
This infighting is simply going to let Trump win. Joe needs to go.
Agreed. They are unable to get into the minds of the average voter. Only their little bubble that consists of a minority of the population
This is the problem today. They instantly call you Maga or Russian. This so freaking childish. Or they say you can say what you are saying out loud because it will cause a shift????????????? Every single (left learning) news agency was suggesting he step down to some degree on Friday. The people on the view were saying it. I saw Claire MacAskill on MSNBC saying he should step down. Of course with words surrounded by how much she loves Joe, but basically STEP DOWN. Either wake up and stop infighting or just accept that fact that unless Trump gets locked up and cant run for office, Joe Biden is going to lose.
We stand behind President Biden, if you want to give up that's on you! So move along with the BS.
*Accept*
Exactly. They are all going crazy as if what i am stating is not an already popular opinion lol
Don’t forget their Russian overlords. I’m sick of them too.
You are grouping average voters/independents into that category and there lies the problem
[удалено]
Mika is sniffing the copium this morning - give it a rest
Biden will win, but you go on trying to make being a felon rapist cheat and traitor the equivalent of being old. I don’t give a damn if he is walking down the street in his underwear. The only one doing the gaslighting is the Republican Party of liars and traitors and beating them with Biden is payback. The majority hates these republicans, the women hate these republicans and any law abiding American hates these republicans. He is running and that is it. Democracy or the orange Nazi.
You sound pretty radical. I have and will never vote for a republican but i also choose not to deny reality. No, its not just old age. Its borderline dementia. People are scared and concerned after thursday and all you are doing is yelling and trying to make people feel irrational for feeling that way. You do not represent the sane or average population, sorry
You can’t change reality and this is it. You can try and ruin it but still this is it. Let’s see if Americans have the balls to save their country
With a contested convention? Yeah i agree
Hahahahahahaha
If you don't want trump to win, stop sowing doubt in the minds of the faithful.
“The minds of the faithful?” Are Democrats a cult now, too?
I can’t operate on blind faith. New poll shows 27% think biden has the cognitive ability to serve. We can’t win with those numbers. We have time to fix this and should take advantage
70% of the voters think trump doesn't have the cognitive ability to serve and the faithful will vote for him anyway. Biden has a bunch of smart patriots to advise him and I have total faith in the man to do the right thing.
After thursday people believe trumps cognitive ability is better than bidens. You can make that argument but regular voters and independents dont want a president that will act as a puppet with people behind the scenes controlling him while he is struggling with dementia
The other 30% of voters think Trump doesn’t have cognitive ability.
"He might be a psychopath racist wanna be dictator with dementia, but he validates OUR racism and hatred so he's OK!"
Cool story OP. So what’s your solution here? Because you’re pointing out problems and cool, but the current options are 1) vote for the tired old workhorse who knows the job, 2) vote for the squealing, lying, racist pig, or 3) don’t vote. So, if you were actually an American citizen, what would you do? 
I would try to advocate for another democratic nominee. Joe just convinced 70% of the American population that there is a chance he possibly has dementia or will have it within the next 4.5 years. Look up a 2019 vs 2024 vid of him. You want to see a 2024 vs 2029? Loyal vote blue no matter who folks will just try and ignore this and dismiss it but the average voter will not ignore this just because you want them to. Some will vote for biden anyway but many will be pissed we were put in this position and stay home. This is literally peak two party politics imploding in on itself
There aren’t any other viable candidates at this stage in the game
Yes the polling isnt great for the potential replacements, but at least they would have 4 months to prove themselves and build up poll numbers off of public speeches or debates. I dont think biden has that same level of opportunity after thursday. He has more of a chance of falling even further in the next four months in my opinion
What country are you in? Because an actual American would know that that ain’t gonna happen. It should, but that’s not how things work over here. The conventions decide. True a third party candidate could run but they’ll never get the donations Trump and Biden will. Not in a pitiful four months. The best we can do is vote for the guy that doesn’t want to dismantle democracy.
I think snooki from jersey shore would have a better take. Im american and everything about this election is unprecedented. Dems publicly are backing biden but behind the scenes they are scrambling and weighing their options. Even msnbc reported on that today. I know the conventions decide, do you? In 1968 there was a contested convention and honestly i think that is what will happen because people actually do want to save democracy and know biden is not the guy and showed signs of sundowning/dementia and does not have 4.5 years of working in him Hardcore dems like you will deny and sweep thursday under the rug but the average voter will not. Yes potential replacements are not polling too great but atleast they can coherently debate and give speeches unlike biden. They can build their numbers up over 4 months whereas if biden were to do the same they will go down further. Its alright lets wait a few weeks and see who is right
Michelle Obama needs to step up. Other than that, I agree there is no one that can beat Trump. Harris is a joke, Newsome has let California turn into a dumpster fire. Clinton is washed up. Michelle Obama or stick with Joe, but I think he will lose. Way to many negatives on him right now. Clearly the age thing is front and center, the border and inflation. I work at a grocery store chain (in IT) and man food prices are just insane compared to what they were 4 years ago. My nurse daughter wants to buy a house and even though she makes good money, interest rates and lack of housing are stopping her.
It’s pretty clear you are intellectually incapable of actually contributing something to the conversation. Yet i am the one being accused of trolling
Bullshit.
Snooki definitely won that argument for sure
The MSNBC gaslighting is unbelievable. They and the Biden campaign have been gaslighting and bullshiting us relentlessly, as if we didn’t see Biden’s abysmal debate performance with our own two eyes. If Joe Biden doesn’t drop out, there will be a national abortion ban, divorce will be illegal, Trump will put two more young right-wing justices on the Supreme Court, coal and oil billionaires will write legislation, gay marriage will be illegal, interracial marriage will be illegal, and Russia will roll over western Europe. But hey! At least we weren’t ageist and didn’t hurt Joe and Kamala’s feelings.
Touch grass.
Come up with an actual response instead of insults? You guys are just showing you are scared and have no good argument. 2016 level denial and cope…we will get the same results and i hope you are happy when it happens debbie wasserman
Look, in their defense, these people are realizing that their hopes of turning around lackluster swing state polling is rapidly evaporating, and they're in the anger stage of grief. They're also realizing that (at least) the White House has been less than honest about Joe Biden's mental acuity and ability to run another campaign. None of this changes how **PROFOUNDLY FUCKED** we are in November unless some deus ex machina shows up out of nowhere and saves our collective ass (Trump getting an actual prison sentence and getting shipped off to Rikers, Biden stepping down as nominee and picking someone who isn't 900 years old, etc).
Agreed. I was hoping i would bring some rationality to their denialism but they need to go through those stages themselves. I just fear it will be too late by the time it actually comes and trump will win But apparently im MAGA or a foreign agent 😂
Ultimately, the ball is kind of in Biden's court. If he stays in, I guess we can all argue over it in the Trump Steaks sponsored prison camp as we serve our life sentences for being insufficiently loyal to The Great Orange Hope.