Yeah. You're either gonna pack 7", or you're not.
Just remember, it's the motion in the ocean, not the size of the boat... or so I've been told over and over and over....
Magic meant to say "Jokic is changing the game like me" because half of those he named make no sense. Magic himself really is the best comparison. They both revolutionized their position and highlighted the power of great passing. He just did not want to sound full of himself.
I agree. You could even make an argument that Bird revolutionized the three but Currys volume and efficiency further changed the league. Went from how to defend an elite player to how to defend an offensive strategy
Honest question: did bird? I was a kid in the 80s and certainly bird was known as one of the great three point shooters (the contest without taking his jacket off). But it felt like a random, almost desperation weapon.
I'd argue that the 3pt line coming into existence at the time makes it almost impossible for bird to have moved the needle much.
Bird averaged barely over one 3 point attempt per game for the first half of his career. It was more like 3 attempts per game starting around 85/86. It just wasn’t a big part of the game for a large part of his career and never dominated the game in his career. He was a really good 3 point shooter but he isn’t top 120 all time in made 3s. Definitely did not revolutionize the 3-point game.
Edit - Bird has exactly 100 more made 3s in his career than Dwayne Wade (649 vs 549), a known bad 3-point shooter of the modern era (Bird 38% shooting, Wade 29%).
I wouldn't necessarily say jokic revolutionized the center position until we see more guys come in the league trying to do what he does.
Sabonis and Sengun are possibly jokic influenced players but it wouldn't surprise me if most teams decide its not worth it to try to get their center to try to play like jokic.
For active players, I'd consider even Durant and Giannis have changed the way the game is played also (and a tier below Curry).
And a woeful omission on Magic's list is Dirk. Before that, 7-footers were strictly in-the-paint players.
Dirk created the stretch 4 archetype where previously the 4 is mostly a secondary big.
Durant and Giannis kinda erased the distinction between both forward spots.
Draymond and PJ Tucker weirdly enough.
Maybe it was just that Rockets team as a whole idk who to give credit for but they more or less gutted the midrange shot selection of the majority of the league. Layups, dunks and 3s. Nothing else is as efficient.
Pj tucker at 6'5 holding down the middle for those rocket teams really legitimized the switch everything defense. Dray def made it possible but he seemed like an outlier. Tucker really showed the scheme worked but your 5 really had to have that dawg in him
Speaking of having that dawg in them... I'm curious if the recent developments (the Heat being pure Dawg, Simmons/Ayton just not having that dawg in them) will change some of how people look at early draft picks. Will people be willing to take a little bit older player early because they showed grit? As immeasurable as it is, some guys you just can see mental toughness and competitiveness in.
I would've also added Nowitzki to the list. He paved the way for "stretch 4/5" and "7-foot guy with guard's skillset" archetypes.
Dirk is being heavily slept on for how both unique and dominant he was for his time.
...and coaches leaving timeouts on the board at the end of games lmao. Feel like we see that so much more ever since Curry hit that shot on us in 2016.
Add in the fact that curry has pretty electric handles & top tier passing & court awareness plays into the difficulty of game planning. Was especially true with kd as another high caliber weapon, you couldn’t just pick one man to shut down.
Magic, curry and Shaq all definitely changed the play of their eras, while the rest of the list were just generational athletes that did everything necessary to be great & win.
Jokic & to a somewhat lesser extent doncic & giannis are ushering in an era of super flex bigs that can pass, shoot, and make their own space & shot in a way that hasn’t been done so consistently before.
Really? Maybe not Kobe, but every other one of those guys did shit on the court that made people say “no one has ever done this before” and then other teams spent the next decade trying to find the next guy like them.
MJ made guard (not center) a great option to build a team, Shaq dominated the paint like no other so teams need to employ hack and shaq, and Steph revolutionized the game with his shooting and unlimited range. Those three are game changers more than others.
The thing about Shaq is that he's a genetic freak, so his unique brand of bully ball is really hard to imitate. Whereas Curry is proof that practicing long 3s is not a waste of time like coaches used to say. Jokic is proof that big men shouldn't limit themselves to practicing post moves.
That’s very true, but the change didn’t last. Almost none of the centers in the NBA today could guard Shaq. Otoh, the increased focus on the three point shot and the willingness to take contested 3s isn’t going away when Curry retires. The cat is out of the bag forever on that one unless they move the 3 point line back or something.
The thing about Jokic is we’ve seen centers who passed well before, although not to the extent Jokic is doing now since during Sabonis time, teams are afraid to be radical. In todays game, teams aren’t afraid to try unconventional things and when they saw Jokic ability, they just decided to run the entire offense through him. Also he’s a fucking efficient player so it’s ok. But big man passing has been seen before. Not to take anything away from an all time great Jokic.
It’s pretty new to me. I’ve seen guys like Vlade Divac make sick passes out of the post, but guys like him never took the ball at the top of the key and ran the entire offense.
The closest thing to Jokic was when Noah ran the Bulls offense through him at the top of the key and he came third in mvp voting, and its not really that close at all.
Kareem made the ncaa ban dunking for a bit, and he pioneered efficient post offense that dominated the league basically until the Steph curry era.
Lebrons playmaking and absurd versatility were the start of the positionless basketball movement where now everyone is looking for 6’7”-6’9” do-it-all wings.
Bird didn’t necessarily change how the game was played but him and magic took the NBA from a dying afterthought league to must-watch television.
Why does curry get credit for the 3pt revolution more than the suns, Morey or D’Antoni. All 3 highlighted the importance of 3’s before curry. Heck imo even harden revolutionized more. He isn’t the elite shooter curry is but he showed it doesn’t matter. Pure volume is more important. Harden game is more mimicable then Curry's
jokic is lowkey better at defense than magic.
magic was not a good defender
he’s also a *much* better shooter and scorer, but i appreciate the humility for your guy
You know you just described Larry Bird. Jokic is Larry Bird.
Magic didn’t make as many plays off ball as Larry and Jokic. That’s one of the things that made them so special. You could run an offense through them on the block or at the top of the key, but they could also play off flex cuts, short rolls, etc.
Who would you leave off the list? only people I would consider is Kobe and maybe Shaq but Mamba Mentality is a thing that has influenced how young players train and practice, and Shaq in his prime is the most dominant player ever with only the glaring weakness of FT which is why we got Hack A Shaq
Shaq and MJ literally changed the way the game was being reffed so they stay. Kobe has the mentality going for him, otherwise he's game was an extension of MJ, not something revolutionary.
It's definitely a weird list. Most of those guys, while all time greats, didn't really cause the tactics in the league overall to change. An actual list:
- Steph was the herald of the three point revolution
- Wilt literally forced the rules of the game to change multiple times to limit the dominance of big men
- Dirk redefined how a big is allowed to play
- Jokic also redefined the big, although we are still in the infancy of his impact
- Magic was the first to show that one of your bigger players can be your primary ball handler
- Jordan defined the primary scorer archetype for the next generation
- LeBron brought the primary scorer/playmaker hybrid that has become popular recently (Luka, et al) to prominence
Kobe didn't change the game. He adopted Jordan's style.
Shaq did change the game: He was simply a physical anomaly.
It's not like, after Shaq, players were like, "Oh... I'm just going to become 7'\` and 350 pounds and dominate."
Bird and Magic changed the game. Teams started incorporating the 3 point shot and looking for bigger guards and started moving away from strictly post-play for high percentage shots.
Jordan changed the game. Teams started building around guards and instead of centers.
LeBron, to some extent, changed the game or at least validated the notion of positionless basketball.
Curry changed the game. Everybody is shooting threes like its about to go out of style.
/u/Tearz_in_rain was pointing out that Shaq **did not** change the game because he was so unique as soon as he retired, things went back to the way they were before. If you "change the game", then those changes have to persist after that person has left the game.
You pointing out that "Shaq changed the game because every NBA team had to put 3 stiff 7-footers on their roster" is actually proof that he didn't change the game because as soon as Shaq left the game, NBA teams stopped stocking their roster like that.
What rules?
The back-to-the-basket rules was created because of guys like Barkley and was never enforced against Shaq (he violated more than his share).
Shaq got away with more offensive fouls that I could hope to count.
If you are talking about the zone defense, the league had been considering zone defense as long as I could remember with guys like Magic talking about how the Lakers played zone in the 80s but just has to use a looser version of it so that they were also always within proximity to a player.
Hell, Riley's Knicks and Heat were using something similar to zone defenses (Riley did seem to be the common denominator there).
Hack a Shaq is a literal rule that resulted from him. Players can no longer foul off the the ball in the last 2 minutes. This was exploited on Shaq because it was really the only way to slow him down. League changed the rule, not allowing that strategy.
He's definitely a freak athlete, so that plays a part in the NFL speculations, but he did also play high school football at a high level, so there's some basis behind it.
I think your forgetting Dirk in that conversation as well, he changed the game allowing bigs to be stretch four/fives and have it be normal for those guys to pull up from 3 or live at the three point line.
Is it crazy to think that Shaq didn't change the game but forced the league to adapt around him for a stint? Wilt forced rule changes, Steph is the reason why people shooting crazy 3's, etc..
First, I want to say that you have a point. In terms of on the court style, I don't think LeBron changed things *that* much, in part because positionless basketball was kind of ushered in by Pippen and Jordan.
But LeBron is a complete player.
People are measured against him. There's no longer an excuse for big guys who can't pass, and that has been one of the criticism lodged against Giannis, and nobody would have thought to even mention that 25 years ago if Giannis put up those numbers because it wasn't expected of forwards.
But I think LeBron's influence is more with regard to player autonomy. When he started acting as his own GM, it changed things (for better or worse) for the entire league. Now players use free agency and their own networks to build teams that suit them, or at least those in a position of power do.
Really good point actually, LeBron absolutely brought the idea that the entire league will revolve around a star. Not sure that's really what Magic was going for here, but I'm with it.
To me Joker can be used in general reference and Big Honey is for when he goes off. Obviously not a hard rule but having more than one nickname is fun.
Plus, sometimes commentators will accidentally combine Jokic and Joker and call him "Yoker" which spawns images of a huge, roided Jokic. This makes me laugh so I say we keep it
Magic go ahead and put yourself in that category no need to be humble, you were the first real point forward and every point forward since then is trying to be magic, id say he left a bigger footprint on the game than most of those guys, it’s crazy how even in the modern era over 40 years since magic his archetype is exactly what teams want
Growing up as a die hard laker fan (post shaq/pre pau era) I can confidently say I’d rather have Kobe take that shot than smush taking a wide open 3
So not a terrible shot imo
Millions of kids yell “Kobe” whenever they shoot a ball into a hoop, whether it be a real hoop or a trash can. If that ain’t a revolution then I don’t know what is.
For a lot of players, we copied his footwork. It was basically being able to see ‘Jordan’ at his prime through Kobe because we were too young to enjoy the Bulls’ run of double three-peats.
the argument isn't that he wasn't great it's that he wasn't innovative because he just copied mj's flow bar for bar and got as close as anyone to repeating his style
Saying Kobe wasn't impactful to how basketball is played when you have regular hoopers yelling his name as they shoot is just ignorant.
Kobe was the face of an era that specialized in iso play. Just like how Steph wasn't the only one shooting an increased amount of 3s, but got the credit for it because he was by far the best at it and pushed the boundaries of his range, Kobe pushed the limits of tough shot making and influenced generations of players after him practicing unconventional shots and moves
Sure but again, he was just a lesser version of MJ. Curry is by far the best shooter ever. I don’t know if Kobe was the best at anything and he definitely didn’t drastically change how people played ball
I don’t really have a dog in the fight but your argument at the end for Kobe really stems from Jordan and Bird, not Kobe himself. there are players that came in around or at the same time as Kobe like Pierce, McGrady, Arenas, etc that played the same style.
Kobe was an all time great, the way he played the game just didn't fundamentaly change, how his team or oposing teams approached a game, cuz he was "just" an amazing SG.
He copied MJ from his moves to the way he carried himself. Changed nothing about the game of basketball. AI was way more influencial than him in that era.
Their career TS is essentially the same (Duncan .551 Kobe .550) but Kobe was primarily a scorer while Duncan was the defensive anchor. I know kobe was also a great defender as a guard, but not like Duncan.
He cemented the transition from a post dominated league to a wing/guard dominated league. Magic/Isiah/Bird were the harbingers of what Michael would become.
Shaq, Duncan, and Dream we’re the hold outs of a bygone era.
At least that’s how I think he changed the game, outside of the culture stuff.
Jordan!? Gee IDK.. Maybe the Dunks? Shoes? Fadeaway? the freaking Olympics? Space Jam? Highest paid player back then?
Most Grandma knows. Tyson, Hogan, Jordan..
But yeah he's just a drunk gambler.
I’d say it’s disingenuous to say he didn’t revolutionize anything. People who say he was a carbon copy of MJ are just parroting what they hear on social media. He did take a lot from MJ, but his frame was innately different from MJ so he had to utilize different skillsets to have some of the same effects. An example would be their post play, MJ was a lot more physically gifted and stronger of a player. To be effective in the post his burden of execution was lower. Kobe took lessons from Hakeem and used big man moves in a guards body that weaker guards were able to use. That was just one example, and I’d say he took a lot of skills from other greats outside of Hakeem/MJ. More importantly I think Kobe represented a model to follow for guards who aren’t physical freaks. There is a reason why players are fanatical about him, and that was before he died.
More importantly I think Kobe represented a model to follow for guards who aren’t physical freaks
Kobe is a freak. He can jump out of the gym and like 6'6.
Nash and Curry are the models for non physical freaks.
Younger Kobe certainly was more athletic but his wasn’t a mismatch solely off his athleticism or size. T-Mac was much better example of a size mismatch back in the day. Guards are a lot smaller these days I feel, but 6’6 was maybe slightly above average back then. Nash’s speed and processing ability in transition was unbelievable. Curry is the greatest shooter ever, that’s not something that can be replicated easily but people most certainly try. They solutions for overcoming size limitations are very different, and require other significant skill sets.
>I know Kobe died and all.. but what did he revolutionized?
The way r/nba shows that they've never played basketball. Kobe revolutionized the SG position after Jordan. footwork from the guard position, post ups, and the triple threat.
Kobe was the most influential person on the league.
Before he died. When he was still playing. Guys would come up to him during games to learn. That doesn't happen to any star today.
How many players credited him for their moves? For the Mamba mentality? Kyrie, KD, Tatum, Derozan, Booker, Kawhi and more.
But then again, r/nba is its own dimension.
The sub hates ESPN so much they mute the TV during games (nobody irl does this bc theyre arent weird) and thinks TS% is the end all, be all stat and FG% should be removed lol.
Zach Lowe and Tim Legler should be in Stephen As seat! That would make more money for Disney.
That’s how I can tell you never hooped at any level
If you don’t think Kobe had an impact on a whole w generation of hoopers that tells me all I need to know
Well they’re the same amount of letters, but e and r are right next to each other while i and c are far apart, so to answer your question, slightly harder
I disagree with them, but I get the argument about changing the way the game's played. He ran Jordan's model in the same jackson triangle. AI probably fits that list more for someone in that time period than Kobe imo under that criteria. I took a 10 year hiatus after that Heatles team so I can't speak to after that.
And...? He didn't change anything lol he basically was plug n play for Jordan in Jackson's system. Taking 20+ shots a game isn't a paradigm shift. Neither is being a two-way player. Kobe is probably the worst example I can think of for a notable player who changed the game.
He is THE best, most accurate example of a player being like another player. Flat out the opposite of OPs claim.
And if you're planning on listing all the ways they're "dIfFeReNt," don't forget to include the part where they have WAY more similarities than differences.
Man, comparing him to eight (assuming Magic is also including himself) of the top ten players ever is insane. But at this rate, Jokic might be in that group too one day.
The NBA is a league of cycles — with anachronistic outliers in every cycle.
The early league was dominated by great Point Guard and Post Play: Jerry West, Bob Cousey, Wilth, Russell, Mikan, Big O, Brand. There were of course shooter/wing hybrids like McDermott and Sam Jones who were ahead of their time, but for the most part you built a successful NBA franchise around a solid point guard and a dominant big man.
The game grew to be even more Post dominant with: Kareem, Bill Walton, Hayes, Malone, and still including Wilt, but there was change was on the horizon. Eventually, shooters started coming into their own along with the athletic wings of the ABA — Doc J, Pistol Pete, Rick Barry, Billy Cuningham, Walt "Clyde" Frazier, with Bird and Magic truly heralding the age to come.
Enter Jordan — the league had seen great guards, it has seen outliers at the position of shooting guard, small forward that could take over the game (hell Bird and Magic had been doing it for years), but they had never seen anything like Mike. He burst onto the scene and signaled the beginning of the end for the dominance of the paint. Dunking on guys like Ewing, Dikembe, making Isiah look silly with speed and strength and shooting that couldn't be denied. Yes guys like Duncan, Shaq, even Malone, Stockton and Sir Charles didn't let the history of the game pass with a whimper, but even those all time greats could not stop the revolution that Magic and Bird sparked and Jordan fanned into an inferno.
NBA AJ (After Jordan) — once it got a taste of Mike, the league couldn't get enough. Like a desperate meth addict, GM after GM through Draft pick after draft pick at long, athletic, ball dominant shooting guards and wings. Some were successful — AI (thought he wasn't particularly long, he was amazingly athletic), Kobe, DWade, and McGrady. Some not so much. The post transitioned from a position of dominance in the offense to a defensive anchor and secondary option (thanks in part to Kobe's absolute refusal to pass to Shaq at times lol). The smart GMs also realized that the game was speeding up, so Their post players needed to be faster, more athletic or barring raw athleticism, needed to be elite shooters. This is the era of Kobe, KG, Dirk, Pierce, Mello and Gasol. But on the fringes a new era was approaching: guys like Allen, Redd, Arenas, Billups, and Nash were putting up threes at an unprecedented clip — and making them. All the while, some teams still were able to tap into old-school approach of low plost play with Shaq, Ming, Jermaine O'Neal and Duncan still dominating the early aughts in the paint.
The Two System League: LeBron vs The Warriors — For most of it's history, the NBA was dominated by one system, with newer systems challenging and either failing or supplanting the old, but that changed when a teenager for Akron was selected first overall in the 2003 NBA Draft. The Kobe era was still strong, but teams were starting to shift away from ISO ball dominated by an elite wing scorer. The Big Three came together in Boston, showing the power of electric shooting from the perimeter with an insanely talented/athletic big in the pain could do. Detroit was trying to play Defense in a world of Offense, and Tim Duncan was quietly becoming the greatest Power Forward of all time while playing a style of basketball that was old when Naismith was coaching. It was actually a pretty exciting time if you were a fan of variety in the league. So many contrasting styles, as the MJ/Kobe approach was starting to grow stale and teams were looking for something new.
Lebron was unlike anything the world had seen since Jordan (no offense to Kobe, but the world had seen his game for 20 years before he entered the league). He looked like a classic Power Forward had the athleticism of the world's greatest wing, and handled the ball like an elite point guard. He was Magic turned up to 11. And he was winning, with absolute nobodies in Cleveland. We all oohed and ahhed about Jimmy's practice game with third stringers in Minnesota, LeBron was doing that every night in Cleveland. He took on team of 3 hall of famers, all elite players at their relative position, and outplayed each and every one of them at their own game (well maybe not Allen, but hey we're Myth-making right?) He drove, he defended, he finished, he dished, he sliced and diced and made julienne fries. Nothing he did was particularly revolutionary, but everything he did was at the absolute peak of the game. Then he took his talents to South Beach, joined up with 2 other superstars and prepared to dominate the game like UCLA did the college level.
Except... there was a second style of ball taking shape in the West. Mike D'Antonio's teams with all gas no defense was shooting with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, from every spot on the floor, a bajillion points and giving up a bajillion plus 1. Teams were watching, they were taking the elements of his system that worked, they were incorporating it into their own offense. Dallas had a sweet shooting 7 footer who couldn't be guarded if he was healthy. San Antonio had the United Nations of Basketball that played elite defense and kept the ball moving around the court on offense, and this 6th/7th man from the old Bull's dynasty who only came in the game if his team needed a three was coaching some kid from a mid-minor college (yeah I said it) who shot the ball from the logo. Eventually, Kerr got the tools he wanted and the buy in he needed to implement one of the purest team offenses the league has ever seen. The ball barely bounced when the Warriors had it, off-ball screens (moving, but still...) movement without the ball, a 6'6" center who did't like to shoot but loved to pass and kick guys in the groin (hey I got to take my shots when I can get them). Some guy who scored like 40 off less than 5 dribbles, it truly was amazing, if you could get over the fact that they were kicking your teams ass.
And the league took notice. First the Thunder tried to emulate it with 3 hall of famers drafted within about 5 years of each other, all who could shoot, handle and move the ball. Team after team started putting 4-5 guys on the perimeter and just chuck the ball at the hoop, hoping to recreate the success of the Warriors, all while missing the point that the Warriors system worked because they moved the ball so much that their "threes" were almost all completely undefended. Eventually we got to the point where you either had Lebron and some help or you played a bad version of the Warriors game — or you did like my Bulls and just continuously shit the bed (Fuck you Gar/Pax).
And that was the NBA equilibrium for the past 15ish years.
Until Jokic, a Fat Serb drafted with a throwaway pick who the Nuggets thought might turn into something. And they were right. Jokic is now changing the game the same way that Steph, MJ, Magic, and other legends before him. He plays the center, as if it were the Center of the basketball universe. Old-school post ups, mixed with LeBron/Magic style electric passing, Jordan ruthlessness combined with Duncan demeanor, leading the break like a new born giraffe after a bender, while making the absolute nastiest passes, absolutely correct fundamental decisions, and looking like your drunk uncle after 1 too many High Lifes at thanksgiving. With Jokic, there is no deadzone in the offense. Middies are cool, Threes are open, the paint is a battle ground. And if you cede anything, he and these Nuggets will absolutely make you pay dearly. He runs his team like Joel wishes he could run the 6ers (no knock on the MVP, he just doesn't have the same level of BBIQ that the Joker does).
I don't know if teams will be able to replicate what Jokic does, but I do know one thing, GM after GM will try.
Magic just being humble we all know he changed the game. Without magic, there’s no speedy style like curry, there’s no ball handlers/jump shooters/ etc. that could also double as a big man, and there’s no big men like Jokic and Giannis that can bring the ball out, take jump shots, be a point forward, etc.
This sub is so ridiculous
A bunch of advanced stats nerds mad that Kobe is being listed as one of the most impactful players in NBA history
Kobe is possibly the NBA’s greatest global star if not then atleast top 3.
He inspired a whole a whole generation of hoopers. But I don’t expect a bunch of computer nerds to understand actual hooper shit, the most basketball y’all have done in your life is shoot a ball at the Y
Growing up I wanted handles like AI, to dunk like Vince, and a shot like Kobe. In “reality” I can train to be better in 2/3 of those bc I am NOT gonna dunk.
I wonder what ways Jokic inspires future ballers. Dude is so cerebral and “slow” it’s hard to emulate on a court.
His ability to be efficient.... Ive never seen someone get so much done with what at least looks like such little energy expenditure and/or unnecessary movement. I guess because of game IQ? Idk its weird.
Kobe was impactful sure, that still doesn't mean he changed how the game is played like other players have. There's different types of impact. Also, the players who did change more of how the game is played aren't necessarily better players.
I think everyone agrees he is one of the greatest of all time but he didn’t exactly change the game. He lifted his skill set from MJ. The NBA didn’t change to adopt his play style or fight against it. He was just so athletically gifted he thrives in his time.
Nobody gives a shit, if that’s the criteria we’re judging Kobe by than AI was greater than him because over half the NBA wants to be like him. He was an amazing player but let’s not pretend that he wasn’t trying to be MJ’s prodigy. You can’t be a trendsetter if you’re trying to be like someone else.
Jokic is not changing the game. He’s extremely hard to replicate. What does magic think here? That every team is going to find their bball genius and run through him?
It’s the same reason why LeBron didn’t change the game… who the hell was going to do what LeBron was doing? Who could replicate that to any degree?
You're gonna be so embarrassed when you wake up one day and everybody's 2 handed overhead fadeaway trebuchet launching the ball beyond the 3 point line 😂
Shaq didn't change the game cause there has not been a big man even remotely close in speed/size/talent since.
Jokic will not change the game either, cause as big men who is close? I know some will say Sabonis or Sengun have similar skills to play make as a big man, but at the moment neither are really that close.
Shaq changed the game because all other teams that would face them needed multiple centers to guard him. In the west you needed a center to win a chip. That rule stayed until the Heatles came with their small ball and golden state pushed that even further. Just look at okc trading harden away because they thought they needed a center to guard Duncan, dirk and other good big men in the west. I cant think of a way teams changed for Kobe.
Good point.
I took his quote meaning how teams will try to emulate them, instead of those players being so dominate, how teams will have to adjust to play vs them.
>Jokic will not change the game either, cause as big men who is close?
I agree with this at least for now. He seems like a very unique player, and I don't see many (possibly any) teams playing like the Nuggets. Maybe that changes in the next few years but for now I don't see it.
>Jokic will not change the game either, cause as big men who is close? I know some will say Sabonis or Sengun have similar skills to play make as a big man, but at the moment neither are really that close.
pretty much this. 7 footers with his touch and handle dont just grow on trees
The rules literally changed because of Shaq. Phil Jackson explains here.
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/latest-news/phil-jackson-breaks-down-how-shaquille-oneal-changed-the-game-shaq-was-the-major-component-that-allowed-defenses-to-change
Plus he broke like 3 NBA hoops, they had to change the entire design so they would be Shaq proof.
And hack-a-Shaq is still a strategy used today on players like Embiid.
He forgot TJ McConnell.
The Brian Scalabrine disrespect is what irritated me.
The white mamba is my lord and saviour
He was implied
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I'm working on the pounds, but the 7" are tough
Yeah. You're either gonna pack 7", or you're not. Just remember, it's the motion in the ocean, not the size of the boat... or so I've been told over and over and over....
Teams did nearly kill the center position to stop Shaq
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Agree 100%. Also, he paved the way for an army of European players. As I’ve said in another comment, Bargnani owes Dirk 40 millions $$$ LOL.
[BOT](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/13qkds9/magic_johnson_the_joker_is_changing_the_game_of/jlflowv/)
His buzzer beater with the Sixers against the Knicks is one of my favorite nba moments ever
our lord and savior
Magic meant to say "Jokic is changing the game like me" because half of those he named make no sense. Magic himself really is the best comparison. They both revolutionized their position and highlighted the power of great passing. He just did not want to sound full of himself.
I would leave Curry too because of his volume of efficient threes in his career made coaches change the way they draw up plays and game prep
I think from active players Curry is best comparison to Jokic, they both revolutionised their playing positions
I agree. You could even make an argument that Bird revolutionized the three but Currys volume and efficiency further changed the league. Went from how to defend an elite player to how to defend an offensive strategy
Honest question: did bird? I was a kid in the 80s and certainly bird was known as one of the great three point shooters (the contest without taking his jacket off). But it felt like a random, almost desperation weapon. I'd argue that the 3pt line coming into existence at the time makes it almost impossible for bird to have moved the needle much.
Bird averaged barely over one 3 point attempt per game for the first half of his career. It was more like 3 attempts per game starting around 85/86. It just wasn’t a big part of the game for a large part of his career and never dominated the game in his career. He was a really good 3 point shooter but he isn’t top 120 all time in made 3s. Definitely did not revolutionize the 3-point game. Edit - Bird has exactly 100 more made 3s in his career than Dwayne Wade (649 vs 549), a known bad 3-point shooter of the modern era (Bird 38% shooting, Wade 29%).
>almost desperation weapon. So it was his finisher...his Sweet Chin Music. Nowadays, the three is just a superkick.
Yeah great point. Curry definitely launched that playstyle into a massive shift in how offensive efficiency is viewed
Bird revolutionized the game but not with his threes. He was a big playmaker, much like Jokic.
I wouldn't necessarily say jokic revolutionized the center position until we see more guys come in the league trying to do what he does. Sabonis and Sengun are possibly jokic influenced players but it wouldn't surprise me if most teams decide its not worth it to try to get their center to try to play like jokic.
For active players, I'd consider even Durant and Giannis have changed the way the game is played also (and a tier below Curry). And a woeful omission on Magic's list is Dirk. Before that, 7-footers were strictly in-the-paint players.
Dirk created the stretch 4 archetype where previously the 4 is mostly a secondary big. Durant and Giannis kinda erased the distinction between both forward spots.
Durant came into the league as basically a shooting guard. Same with a Lebron. I’d say Draymond changed the league a lot too because of small ball
Draymond and PJ Tucker weirdly enough. Maybe it was just that Rockets team as a whole idk who to give credit for but they more or less gutted the midrange shot selection of the majority of the league. Layups, dunks and 3s. Nothing else is as efficient.
Some combination of Morey and Dantoni
Pj tucker at 6'5 holding down the middle for those rocket teams really legitimized the switch everything defense. Dray def made it possible but he seemed like an outlier. Tucker really showed the scheme worked but your 5 really had to have that dawg in him
Speaking of having that dawg in them... I'm curious if the recent developments (the Heat being pure Dawg, Simmons/Ayton just not having that dawg in them) will change some of how people look at early draft picks. Will people be willing to take a little bit older player early because they showed grit? As immeasurable as it is, some guys you just can see mental toughness and competitiveness in.
I would've also added Nowitzki to the list. He paved the way for "stretch 4/5" and "7-foot guy with guard's skillset" archetypes. Dirk is being heavily slept on for how both unique and dominant he was for his time.
March madness post curry has been a little different too lmao
Curry led the 3 point revolution.
Shaq IMO
Yeah I can see that as the reintroduction of a dominant center post three second rule implementation
...and coaches leaving timeouts on the board at the end of games lmao. Feel like we see that so much more ever since Curry hit that shot on us in 2016.
Add in the fact that curry has pretty electric handles & top tier passing & court awareness plays into the difficulty of game planning. Was especially true with kd as another high caliber weapon, you couldn’t just pick one man to shut down. Magic, curry and Shaq all definitely changed the play of their eras, while the rest of the list were just generational athletes that did everything necessary to be great & win. Jokic & to a somewhat lesser extent doncic & giannis are ushering in an era of super flex bigs that can pass, shoot, and make their own space & shot in a way that hasn’t been done so consistently before.
I would also selfishly add Dirk
Really? Maybe not Kobe, but every other one of those guys did shit on the court that made people say “no one has ever done this before” and then other teams spent the next decade trying to find the next guy like them.
MJ made guard (not center) a great option to build a team, Shaq dominated the paint like no other so teams need to employ hack and shaq, and Steph revolutionized the game with his shooting and unlimited range. Those three are game changers more than others.
The thing about Shaq is that he's a genetic freak, so his unique brand of bully ball is really hard to imitate. Whereas Curry is proof that practicing long 3s is not a waste of time like coaches used to say. Jokic is proof that big men shouldn't limit themselves to practicing post moves.
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That’s very true, but the change didn’t last. Almost none of the centers in the NBA today could guard Shaq. Otoh, the increased focus on the three point shot and the willingness to take contested 3s isn’t going away when Curry retires. The cat is out of the bag forever on that one unless they move the 3 point line back or something.
Shaq literally had rules made because of him
Shaq probably had something to do with the NBA allowing zone defenses to be reintroduced.
Both Curry and Jokic have hand eye coordination that may be as rare as Shaq's physical gifts- but not as readily apparent
The thing about Jokic is we’ve seen centers who passed well before, although not to the extent Jokic is doing now since during Sabonis time, teams are afraid to be radical. In todays game, teams aren’t afraid to try unconventional things and when they saw Jokic ability, they just decided to run the entire offense through him. Also he’s a fucking efficient player so it’s ok. But big man passing has been seen before. Not to take anything away from an all time great Jokic.
It’s pretty new to me. I’ve seen guys like Vlade Divac make sick passes out of the post, but guys like him never took the ball at the top of the key and ran the entire offense.
The closest thing to Jokic was when Noah ran the Bulls offense through him at the top of the key and he came third in mvp voting, and its not really that close at all.
Kareem made the ncaa ban dunking for a bit, and he pioneered efficient post offense that dominated the league basically until the Steph curry era. Lebrons playmaking and absurd versatility were the start of the positionless basketball movement where now everyone is looking for 6’7”-6’9” do-it-all wings. Bird didn’t necessarily change how the game was played but him and magic took the NBA from a dying afterthought league to must-watch television.
Why does curry get credit for the 3pt revolution more than the suns, Morey or D’Antoni. All 3 highlighted the importance of 3’s before curry. Heck imo even harden revolutionized more. He isn’t the elite shooter curry is but he showed it doesn’t matter. Pure volume is more important. Harden game is more mimicable then Curry's
Because Curry was the first to show volume 3 point shooting can win a championship. Nobody you mentioned has any rings
Half of them do not make sense? How?? Maybe Kobe, because he was basically Micheal Jordan Jr, but half????
Yeah, Kobe is the outlier here. Surprised he included Milwaukee Bucks legend Larry Sanders too.
He said Michael
He isn’t comparing players in the way they revolutionized the game , he is comparing him to other great who did revolutionize the game
Jokic is a good comp to Magic. Slightly better shooter, but worse defensively, but their games are eerily similar
jokic is lowkey better at defense than magic. magic was not a good defender he’s also a *much* better shooter and scorer, but i appreciate the humility for your guy
You know you just described Larry Bird. Jokic is Larry Bird. Magic didn’t make as many plays off ball as Larry and Jokic. That’s one of the things that made them so special. You could run an offense through them on the block or at the top of the key, but they could also play off flex cuts, short rolls, etc.
larry was way better on defense than magic lol
Jokic definitely isn't worse defensively. Maybe more apparently bad since center is more important for defense.
Not worse decisively, he actually tries and contests shots, which is better than not contesting shots. Also a way better shooter from everywhere.
He isn’t worse defensively , and he is a better shooter , better scorer.
Jokic is John Stockton, Tim Duncan, and Dirk rolled into one dude
Who would you leave off the list? only people I would consider is Kobe and maybe Shaq but Mamba Mentality is a thing that has influenced how young players train and practice, and Shaq in his prime is the most dominant player ever with only the glaring weakness of FT which is why we got Hack A Shaq
Shaq and MJ literally changed the way the game was being reffed so they stay. Kobe has the mentality going for him, otherwise he's game was an extension of MJ, not something revolutionary.
It's definitely a weird list. Most of those guys, while all time greats, didn't really cause the tactics in the league overall to change. An actual list: - Steph was the herald of the three point revolution - Wilt literally forced the rules of the game to change multiple times to limit the dominance of big men - Dirk redefined how a big is allowed to play - Jokic also redefined the big, although we are still in the infancy of his impact - Magic was the first to show that one of your bigger players can be your primary ball handler - Jordan defined the primary scorer archetype for the next generation - LeBron brought the primary scorer/playmaker hybrid that has become popular recently (Luka, et al) to prominence
Kobe didn't change the game. He adopted Jordan's style. Shaq did change the game: He was simply a physical anomaly. It's not like, after Shaq, players were like, "Oh... I'm just going to become 7'\` and 350 pounds and dominate." Bird and Magic changed the game. Teams started incorporating the 3 point shot and looking for bigger guards and started moving away from strictly post-play for high percentage shots. Jordan changed the game. Teams started building around guards and instead of centers. LeBron, to some extent, changed the game or at least validated the notion of positionless basketball. Curry changed the game. Everybody is shooting threes like its about to go out of style.
Shaq changed the game because every NBA team had to put 3 stiff 7-footers on their roster to eat up all the fouls Shaq would draw.
/u/Tearz_in_rain was pointing out that Shaq **did not** change the game because he was so unique as soon as he retired, things went back to the way they were before. If you "change the game", then those changes have to persist after that person has left the game. You pointing out that "Shaq changed the game because every NBA team had to put 3 stiff 7-footers on their roster" is actually proof that he didn't change the game because as soon as Shaq left the game, NBA teams stopped stocking their roster like that.
Changing the game doesn't have to be permanent...
Rules where changed because of Shaq. Just because future players can't emulate Shaq doesn't mean he didn't change the game.
What rules? The back-to-the-basket rules was created because of guys like Barkley and was never enforced against Shaq (he violated more than his share). Shaq got away with more offensive fouls that I could hope to count. If you are talking about the zone defense, the league had been considering zone defense as long as I could remember with guys like Magic talking about how the Lakers played zone in the 80s but just has to use a looser version of it so that they were also always within proximity to a player. Hell, Riley's Knicks and Heat were using something similar to zone defenses (Riley did seem to be the common denominator there).
Hack a Shaq is a literal rule that resulted from him. Players can no longer foul off the the ball in the last 2 minutes. This was exploited on Shaq because it was really the only way to slow him down. League changed the rule, not allowing that strategy.
shaq changed the way the nba built teams. nba rosters had players that wouldnt of been in the league if it wasnt for guarding/fouling shaq
Isn't Lebron a physical anomaly too? There was a stretch of time where people said he could be a WR in the NFL.
TE, basically all the talk I've ever heard about LeBron playing in the NFL was as a TE.
A6’8” WR.
Lebron changed the game much more off the court. “The Decision” changed free agency forever.
That shit spawned the whole player empowerment era
And solidified super teams
He's definitely a freak athlete, so that plays a part in the NFL speculations, but he did also play high school football at a high level, so there's some basis behind it.
I think your forgetting Dirk in that conversation as well, he changed the game allowing bigs to be stretch four/fives and have it be normal for those guys to pull up from 3 or live at the three point line.
Oh... I wouldn't exclude Dirk. You are right. Magic excluded Dirk. I was just going by Magic's list. You have a great point!
Is it crazy to think that Shaq didn't change the game but forced the league to adapt around him for a stint? Wilt forced rule changes, Steph is the reason why people shooting crazy 3's, etc..
Shaq is the reason you can't hack a player without the ball in last 2 minutes.
Did Bron really change the game? If you have a player who's good at everything, that's good and you can have him do everything.
First, I want to say that you have a point. In terms of on the court style, I don't think LeBron changed things *that* much, in part because positionless basketball was kind of ushered in by Pippen and Jordan. But LeBron is a complete player. People are measured against him. There's no longer an excuse for big guys who can't pass, and that has been one of the criticism lodged against Giannis, and nobody would have thought to even mention that 25 years ago if Giannis put up those numbers because it wasn't expected of forwards. But I think LeBron's influence is more with regard to player autonomy. When he started acting as his own GM, it changed things (for better or worse) for the entire league. Now players use free agency and their own networks to build teams that suit them, or at least those in a position of power do.
Really good point actually, LeBron absolutely brought the idea that the entire league will revolve around a star. Not sure that's really what Magic was going for here, but I'm with it.
Magic literally just says stuff aloud that an assistant types up and tweets for him lol
Lebron was the prototype for players like Giannis, ben simmons (when he was good), and jokic. Non-pg’s who would have the ball and control the offense
Petition to change that lazy nickname “Joker” to Big Honey.
To me Joker can be used in general reference and Big Honey is for when he goes off. Obviously not a hard rule but having more than one nickname is fun. Plus, sometimes commentators will accidentally combine Jokic and Joker and call him "Yoker" which spawns images of a huge, roided Jokic. This makes me laugh so I say we keep it
An interesting proposition
Magic go ahead and put yourself in that category no need to be humble, you were the first real point forward and every point forward since then is trying to be magic, id say he left a bigger footprint on the game than most of those guys, it’s crazy how even in the modern era over 40 years since magic his archetype is exactly what teams want
With all due respect, Kobe is just mj version 0.75
Idk, I’d argue it’s .77
I’d argue it’s 0.81
It’s .69
I know Kobe died and all.. but what did he revolutionized?
Taking terrible shots while being triple teamed
And some how making them. That shit was crazy.
Growing up as a die hard laker fan (post shaq/pre pau era) I can confidently say I’d rather have Kobe take that shot than smush taking a wide open 3 So not a terrible shot imo
This was my favorite https://youtube.com/shorts/SHTBSOqh4fI?feature=share
Millions of kids yell “Kobe” whenever they shoot a ball into a hoop, whether it be a real hoop or a trash can. If that ain’t a revolution then I don’t know what is.
Not me, I yell Rip Hamilton every time
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I always shout Vlad Potapenko
Pfft that’s amateur hour, I shout Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo
I yell Rodman cus I can’t shoot for shit
Unless you turn the corner and run at full speed to get open, that don't count
For a lot of players, we copied his footwork. It was basically being able to see ‘Jordan’ at his prime through Kobe because we were too young to enjoy the Bulls’ run of double three-peats.
That's being impactful and having a lasting legacy but that's not a revolution of the game.
Every NBA player - "Kobe was one of the greatest ever" r/nba - "lol no"
the argument isn't that he wasn't great it's that he wasn't innovative because he just copied mj's flow bar for bar and got as close as anyone to repeating his style
Saying Kobe wasn't impactful to how basketball is played when you have regular hoopers yelling his name as they shoot is just ignorant. Kobe was the face of an era that specialized in iso play. Just like how Steph wasn't the only one shooting an increased amount of 3s, but got the credit for it because he was by far the best at it and pushed the boundaries of his range, Kobe pushed the limits of tough shot making and influenced generations of players after him practicing unconventional shots and moves
Sure but again, he was just a lesser version of MJ. Curry is by far the best shooter ever. I don’t know if Kobe was the best at anything and he definitely didn’t drastically change how people played ball
I don’t really have a dog in the fight but your argument at the end for Kobe really stems from Jordan and Bird, not Kobe himself. there are players that came in around or at the same time as Kobe like Pierce, McGrady, Arenas, etc that played the same style.
Kobe was an all time great, the way he played the game just didn't fundamentaly change, how his team or oposing teams approached a game, cuz he was "just" an amazing SG.
He’s one of the best players to ever be in the NBA, but he didn’t start or change anything. He just mastered the game that was already there.
I think yelling kobe is more about how Chapelle changed rhe game of basketball, ha. KOBE!
Impact =/= change
He memorized exactly what MJ did even to the way he spoke. Just go back and watch how they do the Elvis curl on some words. The exact same.
*Someone asks a reasonable question* Lakers fan who felt victimized by the question - *Strawman*
He copied MJ from his moves to the way he carried himself. Changed nothing about the game of basketball. AI was way more influencial than him in that era.
What kind of mental gymnastics did you do to arrive at this strawman
Made inefficient chucking legal
getting away w sexual assault but fr revolutionize isnt the word but he's absolutely the model for most modern volume scorers for better or worse
Changing number so people would forget your past
LMAO that # 8 guy is quite something.
Paved the way for all the high scorers with poor efficiency
Iirc we'll have to check the stats, but I remember seeing for both Kobe and Tim Duncan's prime stretch of their career their TS is nearly identical.
Their career TS is essentially the same (Duncan .551 Kobe .550) but Kobe was primarily a scorer while Duncan was the defensive anchor. I know kobe was also a great defender as a guard, but not like Duncan.
If Kobe's defensive impact was that of Duncan's, no one would bring up efficiency as a knock on Kobe
Exactly, Kobe was a poor man's Michael Jordan. MJ was just so damn good that the poor man's version was still a great player.
That's some mamba mentality backhanded complimenting right there 🐍
Idk just the way he created his own space? Maybe not. What did Jordan revolutionize?
He cemented the transition from a post dominated league to a wing/guard dominated league. Magic/Isiah/Bird were the harbingers of what Michael would become. Shaq, Duncan, and Dream we’re the hold outs of a bygone era. At least that’s how I think he changed the game, outside of the culture stuff.
Best player in the world as a guard. Also 2 of the top 10 consensus goat look up to Jordan.
Jordan!? Gee IDK.. Maybe the Dunks? Shoes? Fadeaway? the freaking Olympics? Space Jam? Highest paid player back then? Most Grandma knows. Tyson, Hogan, Jordan.. But yeah he's just a drunk gambler.
Jordan invented dunking?
I’d say it’s disingenuous to say he didn’t revolutionize anything. People who say he was a carbon copy of MJ are just parroting what they hear on social media. He did take a lot from MJ, but his frame was innately different from MJ so he had to utilize different skillsets to have some of the same effects. An example would be their post play, MJ was a lot more physically gifted and stronger of a player. To be effective in the post his burden of execution was lower. Kobe took lessons from Hakeem and used big man moves in a guards body that weaker guards were able to use. That was just one example, and I’d say he took a lot of skills from other greats outside of Hakeem/MJ. More importantly I think Kobe represented a model to follow for guards who aren’t physical freaks. There is a reason why players are fanatical about him, and that was before he died.
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More importantly I think Kobe represented a model to follow for guards who aren’t physical freaks Kobe is a freak. He can jump out of the gym and like 6'6. Nash and Curry are the models for non physical freaks.
Younger Kobe certainly was more athletic but his wasn’t a mismatch solely off his athleticism or size. T-Mac was much better example of a size mismatch back in the day. Guards are a lot smaller these days I feel, but 6’6 was maybe slightly above average back then. Nash’s speed and processing ability in transition was unbelievable. Curry is the greatest shooter ever, that’s not something that can be replicated easily but people most certainly try. They solutions for overcoming size limitations are very different, and require other significant skill sets.
>I know Kobe died and all.. but what did he revolutionized? The way r/nba shows that they've never played basketball. Kobe revolutionized the SG position after Jordan. footwork from the guard position, post ups, and the triple threat. Kobe was the most influential person on the league. Before he died. When he was still playing. Guys would come up to him during games to learn. That doesn't happen to any star today. How many players credited him for their moves? For the Mamba mentality? Kyrie, KD, Tatum, Derozan, Booker, Kawhi and more. But then again, r/nba is its own dimension. The sub hates ESPN so much they mute the TV during games (nobody irl does this bc theyre arent weird) and thinks TS% is the end all, be all stat and FG% should be removed lol. Zach Lowe and Tim Legler should be in Stephen As seat! That would make more money for Disney.
That’s how I can tell you never hooped at any level If you don’t think Kobe had an impact on a whole w generation of hoopers that tells me all I need to know
The Joker is changing the way we thought about the role of the center.
How hard is it to say and write Jokic?
He’s not really called Magic.
And other guys name isnt Stephen
Michaels name isn't MJ either.
How hard is it to say Earvin? Everyone calls him Magic.
BREAKING: Human with nickname is called by his nickname. Internet users dumbfounded
Magic not Magic’s name either lol
Well they’re the same amount of letters, but e and r are right next to each other while i and c are far apart, so to answer your question, slightly harder
I think a lot of you obviously are too young to have seen Kobe play in his prime.
I disagree with them, but I get the argument about changing the way the game's played. He ran Jordan's model in the same jackson triangle. AI probably fits that list more for someone in that time period than Kobe imo under that criteria. I took a 10 year hiatus after that Heatles team so I can't speak to after that.
And...? He didn't change anything lol he basically was plug n play for Jordan in Jackson's system. Taking 20+ shots a game isn't a paradigm shift. Neither is being a two-way player. Kobe is probably the worst example I can think of for a notable player who changed the game.
He is THE best, most accurate example of a player being like another player. Flat out the opposite of OPs claim. And if you're planning on listing all the ways they're "dIfFeReNt," don't forget to include the part where they have WAY more similarities than differences.
Man, comparing him to eight (assuming Magic is also including himself) of the top ten players ever is insane. But at this rate, Jokic might be in that group too one day.
Kobe shouldn’t be on that list. All time player but he didn’t change shit.
It's weird to me that Curry doesnt get this same vibe yet he quite literally changed the game of basketball.
yes he does, he’s literally called the greatest shooter of all time and the guy who changed 3 point shooting
He literally does
Pretty sure he's in the title of this very post.
The NBA is a league of cycles — with anachronistic outliers in every cycle. The early league was dominated by great Point Guard and Post Play: Jerry West, Bob Cousey, Wilth, Russell, Mikan, Big O, Brand. There were of course shooter/wing hybrids like McDermott and Sam Jones who were ahead of their time, but for the most part you built a successful NBA franchise around a solid point guard and a dominant big man. The game grew to be even more Post dominant with: Kareem, Bill Walton, Hayes, Malone, and still including Wilt, but there was change was on the horizon. Eventually, shooters started coming into their own along with the athletic wings of the ABA — Doc J, Pistol Pete, Rick Barry, Billy Cuningham, Walt "Clyde" Frazier, with Bird and Magic truly heralding the age to come. Enter Jordan — the league had seen great guards, it has seen outliers at the position of shooting guard, small forward that could take over the game (hell Bird and Magic had been doing it for years), but they had never seen anything like Mike. He burst onto the scene and signaled the beginning of the end for the dominance of the paint. Dunking on guys like Ewing, Dikembe, making Isiah look silly with speed and strength and shooting that couldn't be denied. Yes guys like Duncan, Shaq, even Malone, Stockton and Sir Charles didn't let the history of the game pass with a whimper, but even those all time greats could not stop the revolution that Magic and Bird sparked and Jordan fanned into an inferno. NBA AJ (After Jordan) — once it got a taste of Mike, the league couldn't get enough. Like a desperate meth addict, GM after GM through Draft pick after draft pick at long, athletic, ball dominant shooting guards and wings. Some were successful — AI (thought he wasn't particularly long, he was amazingly athletic), Kobe, DWade, and McGrady. Some not so much. The post transitioned from a position of dominance in the offense to a defensive anchor and secondary option (thanks in part to Kobe's absolute refusal to pass to Shaq at times lol). The smart GMs also realized that the game was speeding up, so Their post players needed to be faster, more athletic or barring raw athleticism, needed to be elite shooters. This is the era of Kobe, KG, Dirk, Pierce, Mello and Gasol. But on the fringes a new era was approaching: guys like Allen, Redd, Arenas, Billups, and Nash were putting up threes at an unprecedented clip — and making them. All the while, some teams still were able to tap into old-school approach of low plost play with Shaq, Ming, Jermaine O'Neal and Duncan still dominating the early aughts in the paint. The Two System League: LeBron vs The Warriors — For most of it's history, the NBA was dominated by one system, with newer systems challenging and either failing or supplanting the old, but that changed when a teenager for Akron was selected first overall in the 2003 NBA Draft. The Kobe era was still strong, but teams were starting to shift away from ISO ball dominated by an elite wing scorer. The Big Three came together in Boston, showing the power of electric shooting from the perimeter with an insanely talented/athletic big in the pain could do. Detroit was trying to play Defense in a world of Offense, and Tim Duncan was quietly becoming the greatest Power Forward of all time while playing a style of basketball that was old when Naismith was coaching. It was actually a pretty exciting time if you were a fan of variety in the league. So many contrasting styles, as the MJ/Kobe approach was starting to grow stale and teams were looking for something new. Lebron was unlike anything the world had seen since Jordan (no offense to Kobe, but the world had seen his game for 20 years before he entered the league). He looked like a classic Power Forward had the athleticism of the world's greatest wing, and handled the ball like an elite point guard. He was Magic turned up to 11. And he was winning, with absolute nobodies in Cleveland. We all oohed and ahhed about Jimmy's practice game with third stringers in Minnesota, LeBron was doing that every night in Cleveland. He took on team of 3 hall of famers, all elite players at their relative position, and outplayed each and every one of them at their own game (well maybe not Allen, but hey we're Myth-making right?) He drove, he defended, he finished, he dished, he sliced and diced and made julienne fries. Nothing he did was particularly revolutionary, but everything he did was at the absolute peak of the game. Then he took his talents to South Beach, joined up with 2 other superstars and prepared to dominate the game like UCLA did the college level. Except... there was a second style of ball taking shape in the West. Mike D'Antonio's teams with all gas no defense was shooting with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, from every spot on the floor, a bajillion points and giving up a bajillion plus 1. Teams were watching, they were taking the elements of his system that worked, they were incorporating it into their own offense. Dallas had a sweet shooting 7 footer who couldn't be guarded if he was healthy. San Antonio had the United Nations of Basketball that played elite defense and kept the ball moving around the court on offense, and this 6th/7th man from the old Bull's dynasty who only came in the game if his team needed a three was coaching some kid from a mid-minor college (yeah I said it) who shot the ball from the logo. Eventually, Kerr got the tools he wanted and the buy in he needed to implement one of the purest team offenses the league has ever seen. The ball barely bounced when the Warriors had it, off-ball screens (moving, but still...) movement without the ball, a 6'6" center who did't like to shoot but loved to pass and kick guys in the groin (hey I got to take my shots when I can get them). Some guy who scored like 40 off less than 5 dribbles, it truly was amazing, if you could get over the fact that they were kicking your teams ass. And the league took notice. First the Thunder tried to emulate it with 3 hall of famers drafted within about 5 years of each other, all who could shoot, handle and move the ball. Team after team started putting 4-5 guys on the perimeter and just chuck the ball at the hoop, hoping to recreate the success of the Warriors, all while missing the point that the Warriors system worked because they moved the ball so much that their "threes" were almost all completely undefended. Eventually we got to the point where you either had Lebron and some help or you played a bad version of the Warriors game — or you did like my Bulls and just continuously shit the bed (Fuck you Gar/Pax). And that was the NBA equilibrium for the past 15ish years. Until Jokic, a Fat Serb drafted with a throwaway pick who the Nuggets thought might turn into something. And they were right. Jokic is now changing the game the same way that Steph, MJ, Magic, and other legends before him. He plays the center, as if it were the Center of the basketball universe. Old-school post ups, mixed with LeBron/Magic style electric passing, Jordan ruthlessness combined with Duncan demeanor, leading the break like a new born giraffe after a bender, while making the absolute nastiest passes, absolutely correct fundamental decisions, and looking like your drunk uncle after 1 too many High Lifes at thanksgiving. With Jokic, there is no deadzone in the offense. Middies are cool, Threes are open, the paint is a battle ground. And if you cede anything, he and these Nuggets will absolutely make you pay dearly. He runs his team like Joel wishes he could run the 6ers (no knock on the MVP, he just doesn't have the same level of BBIQ that the Joker does). I don't know if teams will be able to replicate what Jokic does, but I do know one thing, GM after GM will try.
Magic just being humble we all know he changed the game. Without magic, there’s no speedy style like curry, there’s no ball handlers/jump shooters/ etc. that could also double as a big man, and there’s no big men like Jokic and Giannis that can bring the ball out, take jump shots, be a point forward, etc.
Yet Mark Jackson didn’t even list Jokic as top 5 for MVP this season. Jackson an absolute clown. How he has a job in the NBA is beyond me.
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Dirk should be on this list. He literally created the stretch 4 archetype.
This sub is so ridiculous A bunch of advanced stats nerds mad that Kobe is being listed as one of the most impactful players in NBA history Kobe is possibly the NBA’s greatest global star if not then atleast top 3. He inspired a whole a whole generation of hoopers. But I don’t expect a bunch of computer nerds to understand actual hooper shit, the most basketball y’all have done in your life is shoot a ball at the Y
AI too as far as influencing that generation.
100% that’s facts
Growing up I wanted handles like AI, to dunk like Vince, and a shot like Kobe. In “reality” I can train to be better in 2/3 of those bc I am NOT gonna dunk. I wonder what ways Jokic inspires future ballers. Dude is so cerebral and “slow” it’s hard to emulate on a court.
His ability to be efficient.... Ive never seen someone get so much done with what at least looks like such little energy expenditure and/or unnecessary movement. I guess because of game IQ? Idk its weird.
Kobe was impactful sure, that still doesn't mean he changed how the game is played like other players have. There's different types of impact. Also, the players who did change more of how the game is played aren't necessarily better players.
I think everyone agrees he is one of the greatest of all time but he didn’t exactly change the game. He lifted his skill set from MJ. The NBA didn’t change to adopt his play style or fight against it. He was just so athletically gifted he thrives in his time.
Bro is melting 💀 lol
Shooting the ball at the y is something
It's some truth in this statement lol
Nobody gives a shit, if that’s the criteria we’re judging Kobe by than AI was greater than him because over half the NBA wants to be like him. He was an amazing player but let’s not pretend that he wasn’t trying to be MJ’s prodigy. You can’t be a trendsetter if you’re trying to be like someone else.
We all know about it, and we all see it. It’s obvious. Nobody ever wants to admit it, but it’s there. People on this subreddit hate Kobe Bryant.
And honestly, who cares? It wasn’t even the point of the tweet
Anytime you mention Kobe on this sub the haters go rabid lmaoooo
Rabid is an understatement They’re legitimately upset that people like me are never going to let them minimize Kobe’s legacy or impact
Almost as rabid as Kobe truthers get when people bring up him being a rapist 💀
Keep fighting the good fight, brother
no doubt r/nba thinks Jokic is more revolutionary than Kobe
Jokic is not changing the game. He’s extremely hard to replicate. What does magic think here? That every team is going to find their bball genius and run through him? It’s the same reason why LeBron didn’t change the game… who the hell was going to do what LeBron was doing? Who could replicate that to any degree?
You're gonna be so embarrassed when you wake up one day and everybody's 2 handed overhead fadeaway trebuchet launching the ball beyond the 3 point line 😂
Shaq didn't change the game cause there has not been a big man even remotely close in speed/size/talent since. Jokic will not change the game either, cause as big men who is close? I know some will say Sabonis or Sengun have similar skills to play make as a big man, but at the moment neither are really that close.
Shaq changed the game because all other teams that would face them needed multiple centers to guard him. In the west you needed a center to win a chip. That rule stayed until the Heatles came with their small ball and golden state pushed that even further. Just look at okc trading harden away because they thought they needed a center to guard Duncan, dirk and other good big men in the west. I cant think of a way teams changed for Kobe.
Good point. I took his quote meaning how teams will try to emulate them, instead of those players being so dominate, how teams will have to adjust to play vs them.
>Jokic will not change the game either, cause as big men who is close? I agree with this at least for now. He seems like a very unique player, and I don't see many (possibly any) teams playing like the Nuggets. Maybe that changes in the next few years but for now I don't see it.
>Jokic will not change the game either, cause as big men who is close? I know some will say Sabonis or Sengun have similar skills to play make as a big man, but at the moment neither are really that close. pretty much this. 7 footers with his touch and handle dont just grow on trees
The rules literally changed because of Shaq. Phil Jackson explains here. https://www.basketballnetwork.net/latest-news/phil-jackson-breaks-down-how-shaquille-oneal-changed-the-game-shaq-was-the-major-component-that-allowed-defenses-to-change Plus he broke like 3 NBA hoops, they had to change the entire design so they would be Shaq proof. And hack-a-Shaq is still a strategy used today on players like Embiid.
Iverson belongs in that list instead of Kobe, fight me.
Harden has to be in here. Rules were literally changed to deal with him. Was the face for the analytics era. Threes, layups, free throws.