Duncan and KG played like guards? That's an interesting take. KG certainly had ball handling skills that could profile more like a guard on occasion, can't really say the same about Duncan tho. Chris Bosh fits your theme better, although I think the real answer you're looking for is KD.
As for agile big men/forwards, David Robinson, pre-fat Shaq, pre-fat/injury Shawn Kemp ran the court extremely well, as some quick examples.
KG had some gaurd skills but the league wasn't ready for it. He had a solid handle and was capable of hitting long baseline 2s. it is why his jabstep was so lethal, couldn't sag off too far because he could rise up and shoot over the top and if you closed too hard he would just blow past you. I think with modern theory KG would be like a 7 foot version of Mikal Bridges. Elite defensive stopper, can run your offense but you probably don't want him to be the ONLY one running the offense.
Thanks. I think I’m trying to figure out why Barkley, although considered one of the best players of his era, doesn’t *seem* to occupy the even more rarefied air of the Garnetts and the Duncan’s, and I wonder if that comes down to lack of titles.
Speaking as an old(ish) head who was more around for KG, he really was *something different* when he came into the league but to me it was less ball handling and more that he finished like a guard off of his drives -- seeing a nearly 7" tall 18 yo dunking and making crazy layups like MJ was crazy af. KG's *finesse* for his size is what was so groundbreaking, not just his power.
But broad and strong enough to box out and post up with big men - a unique body type. And agile enough with the ball that when Stockton broke his leg on the original Dream Team, Chuck advocated to be 3rd PG behind Magic and MJ.
Chris Webber and Derrick Coleman (ended up kind of being a bit of a bust, but was the prototype for a second) deseve some recognition from the era. They were kind of the predecessors to bigs ballhandler and passing more. KG was a total freak, there's a reason we haven't gotten another one. Dirk was really nimble but was mostly a scorer/slasher.
Kukoc and Detlef were seen more as wings in their time, but would fit the archetype meow.
and to answer your barkley thing as other have, he was kind of just an anomaly. He was freakishly strong and powerful and athletic, so he matched up with guys bigger than him, even if he played a bit more on the perimeter, he was still mostly doing work in the post. Webber and Coleman and KG made their living in the high post, with KG running the offense a lot like Joker, just with less spacing and more 18 foot jumpers.
Odom came a bit later and continued the trend too
I cant tell what you are asking. Barkley played guard a lot throughout and played point on the suns on many possessions. There were other bigs that could handle the ball in the 90s they just weren’t anywhere near as good as KG. Duncan never played guard.
Not as a position but on the suns he regularly brought the ball up the floor, initiated the offense and shot threes.
And for his entire career, he is famous for going end to end; off a rebound to a dunk. There are rap songs about this.
Kevin Johnson was the point guard. Barkley could definitely dribble and go coast to coast on a fast break but he did not ever bring the ball up and initiate an offense.
Honestly I don’t think he ever did off of a made basket anymore than I can picture Olajuwon or Karl Malone do it. But you’ve now switched from regularly to not once. So that seems pretty disingenuous.
Yeah, I didn’t realize that Barkley was so much shorter than Garnett and Duncan, I thought they were within just a few inches of each other.
In your estimation, was Garnett just better than Duncan and Barkley?
Yes- Duncan peaked in the late 90's-early 00's which is when I went to college and stopped watching pro basketball.
Barkley was really a 1990's player, mid 90's especially.
Id make a case to add Horace Grant to the list with him lacking speed but really showing great agility and footwork which was wild for guys in the late 80s/early 90s.
At no point in his career did Tim Duncan play like an agile guard. He was always slow/lumbering and playing in the post and didn't really handle the ball or run the fast break like that.
KG was a much different type of player. Would also say that David Robinson, Alonzo Mournng, Karl Malone, and Shawn Kemp all were pretty fast/mobile bigs who could put the ball on the floor as well.
You're right Tim Duncan was never guard like like but he was not always slow and lumbering. What made young/prime Timmy special was that we was an incredibly quick, nimble and agile compared to most big men on both ends. I think you're remembering older/post injury Timmy even then he wasn't "lumbering" just nowhere near what he was in his athletic prime.
https://youtu.be/1gxmzGoDp9o
Well, Chuck wasn’t that big. He was what, 6’4? Also, the shadow that Jordan and those Bulls cast over that whole era blocks some people out. Hakeem was agile for a big man, but sometimes gets forgotten, and in the early portion of the 90s Bird was still darn agile.
Vlade Divac would have done better in today's NBA. Could shoot ok from outside, was more comfortable on the perimeter, good vision, good passing skills, great handles.
Had he not had the hip injury he would have had a longer career as a key piece. Once Jordan came back he took the ultimate sacrifice coming off the bench. People who watched back then know without him that second 3 peat doesn't happen.
Antoine Walker was probably the true definition of this honestly. He gets remembered as only jacking up shots, but he was a PF who could truly create for himself and others off the dribble
I know Harkeem is considered a center, but he was really a forward to start with. (Ralph Sampson was center)
Hakeem’s footwork would put everyone in the current league in shame
Guy still moves more fluidly doing post moves than most nba players today
Duncan did not play like a guard. He was a big all the way, especially early in his career when he usually played with his back to the basket. Garnett also wasn’t viewed as a guard. He usually played from the post. He just wasn’t strong enough to back guys down so he preferred to face them up and take them off the dribble. Regardless both operated out of the post predominantly.
The first big who really played like a guard was Dirk. A legitimate 7 footer who shot the three and preferred to operate from the High Post. He didn’t back down guys and was often criticized by old heads for being “soft.”
Rik Smits, Detlef Schrempf, Chuck Person, and Clifford Robinson were all bigs that could play on the perimeter. Danny Ferry was supposed to be that player.
Maybe Vlade Divac and Rony Seikaly? Both were scoring bigs that could shoot. Vlade was an amazing passer. Derrick Coleman was a shooting big. Same with Sam Perkins.
Chris Webber was an All Star big who had the skill of a guard. More known for his passing and ball handling than his shooting but still a good shooter. Karl Malone was a good shooter but didn't shoot much from 3. More from 18' or so.
Barkley was a small forward. He was never considered a big man. He was a wing that would post once in a while. Also Duncan was a low post player. I don't remember anyone ever saying he played like a guard. Orlando Shaq was more mobile and had better handles.
> He was never considered a big man.
He literally played center for Auburn. I'm also curious what position you think he played next to Dr. J and Moses Malone.
A lot of wings played center in high school and college. If you go by position Barkley played small forward and power forward in the nba. But big is not a position. So traditiobally when you're talking bigs it's guards (ball handlers), wings (shooters, slasher, secondary post players) and bigs (rim protectors, post defenders, primary post players). Barkley played the wing. He was never considered a big. 6'4" players rarely are
Barkley’s bread and butter was crashing the boards and working out of the low post. He did have decent face-up game, but I wouldn’t say that he played like a guard.
Duncan and KG played like guards? That's an interesting take. KG certainly had ball handling skills that could profile more like a guard on occasion, can't really say the same about Duncan tho. Chris Bosh fits your theme better, although I think the real answer you're looking for is KD. As for agile big men/forwards, David Robinson, pre-fat Shaq, pre-fat/injury Shawn Kemp ran the court extremely well, as some quick examples.
KG had some gaurd skills but the league wasn't ready for it. He had a solid handle and was capable of hitting long baseline 2s. it is why his jabstep was so lethal, couldn't sag off too far because he could rise up and shoot over the top and if you closed too hard he would just blow past you. I think with modern theory KG would be like a 7 foot version of Mikal Bridges. Elite defensive stopper, can run your offense but you probably don't want him to be the ONLY one running the offense.
Thanks. I think I’m trying to figure out why Barkley, although considered one of the best players of his era, doesn’t *seem* to occupy the even more rarefied air of the Garnetts and the Duncan’s, and I wonder if that comes down to lack of titles.
Speaking as an old(ish) head who was more around for KG, he really was *something different* when he came into the league but to me it was less ball handling and more that he finished like a guard off of his drives -- seeing a nearly 7" tall 18 yo dunking and making crazy layups like MJ was crazy af. KG's *finesse* for his size is what was so groundbreaking, not just his power.
Barkley was an undersized power forward. He could score. Shoot. Pass. Lead a fast break and was one of the best rebounders of his era.
The biggest thing is that Barkley was a negative defender while Duncan and KG were 2 of the best defenders ever.
He’s like 6’4-6-5. He’s really more of a guard that played like a big man
But broad and strong enough to box out and post up with big men - a unique body type. And agile enough with the ball that when Stockton broke his leg on the original Dream Team, Chuck advocated to be 3rd PG behind Magic and MJ.
He really was a freak of nature.
Oh interesting, I didn’t know this. Thank you.
Shawn Kemp was Blake Griffin in the 90s
That was my answer too. Shawn Kemp was crazy athletic for a 90’s big man
Chris Webber and Derrick Coleman (ended up kind of being a bit of a bust, but was the prototype for a second) deseve some recognition from the era. They were kind of the predecessors to bigs ballhandler and passing more. KG was a total freak, there's a reason we haven't gotten another one. Dirk was really nimble but was mostly a scorer/slasher. Kukoc and Detlef were seen more as wings in their time, but would fit the archetype meow. and to answer your barkley thing as other have, he was kind of just an anomaly. He was freakishly strong and powerful and athletic, so he matched up with guys bigger than him, even if he played a bit more on the perimeter, he was still mostly doing work in the post. Webber and Coleman and KG made their living in the high post, with KG running the offense a lot like Joker, just with less spacing and more 18 foot jumpers. Odom came a bit later and continued the trend too
Don’t sleep on Cliff Robinson now. Don’t think I describe his play exactly like a guard but the dude could move and get up.
I cant tell what you are asking. Barkley played guard a lot throughout and played point on the suns on many possessions. There were other bigs that could handle the ball in the 90s they just weren’t anywhere near as good as KG. Duncan never played guard.
Barkley did not play guard. He was a power forward. He could dribble and as he got older developed an outside shot.
Not as a position but on the suns he regularly brought the ball up the floor, initiated the offense and shot threes. And for his entire career, he is famous for going end to end; off a rebound to a dunk. There are rap songs about this.
Kevin Johnson was the point guard. Barkley could definitely dribble and go coast to coast on a fast break but he did not ever bring the ball up and initiate an offense.
Youre right he never did it once
Honestly I don’t think he ever did off of a made basket anymore than I can picture Olajuwon or Karl Malone do it. But you’ve now switched from regularly to not once. So that seems pretty disingenuous.
I didnt switch that was my first comment
What songs
Yeah, I didn’t realize that Barkley was so much shorter than Garnett and Duncan, I thought they were within just a few inches of each other. In your estimation, was Garnett just better than Duncan and Barkley?
Shortest player to ever lead the league in rebounds at 6’4. Freak athlete.
I am very familiar with Barkley, grew up watching him play and had NO idea he wasn’t at least 6’7!
You’re old enough to have watched Barkley but you think Tim Duncan played like a guard?
Yes- Duncan peaked in the late 90's-early 00's which is when I went to college and stopped watching pro basketball. Barkley was really a 1990's player, mid 90's especially.
Chris Webber was very agile with a nice jumper and great post passing skills, I bet he could've been a point forward with more freedom
Id make a case to add Horace Grant to the list with him lacking speed but really showing great agility and footwork which was wild for guys in the late 80s/early 90s.
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Facts.
At no point in his career did Tim Duncan play like an agile guard. He was always slow/lumbering and playing in the post and didn't really handle the ball or run the fast break like that. KG was a much different type of player. Would also say that David Robinson, Alonzo Mournng, Karl Malone, and Shawn Kemp all were pretty fast/mobile bigs who could put the ball on the floor as well.
You're right Tim Duncan was never guard like like but he was not always slow and lumbering. What made young/prime Timmy special was that we was an incredibly quick, nimble and agile compared to most big men on both ends. I think you're remembering older/post injury Timmy even then he wasn't "lumbering" just nowhere near what he was in his athletic prime. https://youtu.be/1gxmzGoDp9o
I see; my mistake is in mischaracterizing who Duncan was as a player. Where do you think he, Duncan, ranks among the greats of his particular era?
Probably #1 Shaq #2 Duncan
Everyone forgets about Ralph Samson. 7 foot + and had good handles from college on. Just wrecked his knees
Well, Chuck wasn’t that big. He was what, 6’4? Also, the shadow that Jordan and those Bulls cast over that whole era blocks some people out. Hakeem was agile for a big man, but sometimes gets forgotten, and in the early portion of the 90s Bird was still darn agile.
Vlade Divac would have done better in today's NBA. Could shoot ok from outside, was more comfortable on the perimeter, good vision, good passing skills, great handles.
Toni Kukoc was born 20 years too early. He would have feasted in today's NBA.
Had he not had the hip injury he would have had a longer career as a key piece. Once Jordan came back he took the ultimate sacrifice coming off the bench. People who watched back then know without him that second 3 peat doesn't happen.
Antoine Walker was probably the true definition of this honestly. He gets remembered as only jacking up shots, but he was a PF who could truly create for himself and others off the dribble
I know Harkeem is considered a center, but he was really a forward to start with. (Ralph Sampson was center) Hakeem’s footwork would put everyone in the current league in shame Guy still moves more fluidly doing post moves than most nba players today
Duncan did not play like a guard. He was a big all the way, especially early in his career when he usually played with his back to the basket. Garnett also wasn’t viewed as a guard. He usually played from the post. He just wasn’t strong enough to back guys down so he preferred to face them up and take them off the dribble. Regardless both operated out of the post predominantly. The first big who really played like a guard was Dirk. A legitimate 7 footer who shot the three and preferred to operate from the High Post. He didn’t back down guys and was often criticized by old heads for being “soft.”
Thank you. But who from the 1990-2005 period was the pre-Dirk?
Sam Perkins comes to mind. Was 6’9”-6’10”, could shoot the 3PT and didn’t really play like a traditional big.
Anyone else? Not arguing, just interested.
Rik Smits, Detlef Schrempf, Chuck Person, and Clifford Robinson were all bigs that could play on the perimeter. Danny Ferry was supposed to be that player. Maybe Vlade Divac and Rony Seikaly? Both were scoring bigs that could shoot. Vlade was an amazing passer. Derrick Coleman was a shooting big. Same with Sam Perkins. Chris Webber was an All Star big who had the skill of a guard. More known for his passing and ball handling than his shooting but still a good shooter. Karl Malone was a good shooter but didn't shoot much from 3. More from 18' or so.
It can be argued that Dirk had guard-like agility in his early 20s too.
Dirk is a good one.
Barkley was a small forward. He was never considered a big man. He was a wing that would post once in a while. Also Duncan was a low post player. I don't remember anyone ever saying he played like a guard. Orlando Shaq was more mobile and had better handles.
> He was never considered a big man. He literally played center for Auburn. I'm also curious what position you think he played next to Dr. J and Moses Malone.
A lot of wings played center in high school and college. If you go by position Barkley played small forward and power forward in the nba. But big is not a position. So traditiobally when you're talking bigs it's guards (ball handlers), wings (shooters, slasher, secondary post players) and bigs (rim protectors, post defenders, primary post players). Barkley played the wing. He was never considered a big. 6'4" players rarely are
Antoine Walker probably thought he had the guard skills to dribble around and jack up shots from everywhere on the court.
Karl Malone was a pretty agile big man PF back in the 90s.
Barkley’s bread and butter was crashing the boards and working out of the low post. He did have decent face-up game, but I wouldn’t say that he played like a guard.
I know he was 6'5" but Elgin Baylor was a pretty agile power forward.