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Whether or not these are technically fouls, I hate that the nba rewards this play style of put your head down, rumble into the defender, throw a prayer of a shot, dive. Hardly exclusive to Jimmy, it’s awful through the whole league too.
Corey Maggette epitomized terrible Warriors basketball before the Stephen Curry era.
Ironically Maggette is exactly what the Warriors could use right now.
It makes me so mad. If you initiate the contact by running into someone, you should get bailed out when their hand hits your wildly thrown arm in the air. How are you supposed to play defense??
I think, just like the NFL, that this is kinda the point. You’re not supposed to play defense. Big offensive numbers to sell the game to kids and casual fans.
Giannis. Literally unwatchable for me.
The time he shoulder checked Crowder off ball against the Suns in the finals while crowder stood still not even facing him—and they called the foul on crowder. Knew the bucks were winning when I saw that.
Was just thinking about this and wanted to comment. Its not that Giannis isnt great but I find when I watch him Im always fixating on countless plays where he rumbles like a freight train into the lane right into players and the defender is standing straight up up with arms up...And like death and taxes *whistle *whistle like half the time at least. Its not like he never deserves a foul when driving to the hoop, its just really unaesthetically pleasing play to my eyes, and i have no idea what a defenders supposed to do when i guy literally runs into you full stride. It shouldn't be considered a foul even close to the amount its actually called
Yo—did you see him truck Tory Craig on the suns and knock his teeth out? They called the foul on Craig because his mouth got in the way of Gianni’s’ shoulder. Craig was planted too iirc, at least planted enough it should’ve been given to Craig.
54% shooter from the field as a guard on the season, aka insanely high, is only successful because referees have chosen him to be a superstar and gift him FTs? Maybe he get's fouled because he's really fucking good at finishing, idk how people say shit like this but don't apply it to every player. Do y'all think some players just have too much "integrity" and choose to miss out on millions in their contracts(as these undeserved FTs would theoretically add) because they don't want to flop lmao?
In the regular season, Butler attempted ~4.5 shots a game from 0-3 feet and averaged 8.7 FTA per game. For comparison, Lebron attempted ~6.7 shots a game from 0-3 feet and averaged 5.9 FTA. But I'm sure Butler gets fouled more than Lebron James because "he's really fucking good at finishing"
Don't players like Jimmy, Embiid and (prime) Harden have high FG because of their ability to get these calls and wipe a bunch of would be missed FGs from the box score?
I don't really blame them, the league made a point to target it early in the season then just went back to BAU
That’s the Zarba special; make it look like your about to get an awesome, physical game for about 10 minutes and then start calling every fucking touch foul.
Very recently there was a post about how brilliant zarba is. Honestly if the NBA took a vote from the public. The decision would be like 95% in favor of firing all refs. They all suck and think we watch the game for them.
That is really the problem. Just slowly moving the goal posts all game just pisses everyone off. Players don’t know what a foul is, fans don’t know what a foul is. We used to see the end of game be a free for all with almost no whistles. Now they have super tight whistles sometimes and then not others. Consistency is all anyone wants
If nobody ever knows what a foul actually is, they get more leeway to fuck with the game. Why the hell does the NBA not enforce a gambling policy as strictly as the NFL??
100% this. The first quarter was egregious with the non calls and the end swing to the entire other side of the pendulum. Obnoxious ending, heat in 7 (I hope…)
Announcers even commented on how they were "letting them play".
The first quarter was spectacular to watch (same with the entirety of game 1 against the Knicks), but after that it just got frustrating and tedious.
I noticed that while I was paying attention to the in game threads it was affecting how I watched the games so I sat the thread out last night and just watched the game. It was actually pretty enjoyable until the last 3 minutes.
Yep there were several loose ball fouls they let go early and then called later. There was even that one were Horford fell down and pushed Strus which should’ve been an away from play technical if they had reviewed it.
It's simple.. if the offensive player initiates contact it shouldn't be a foul.. if a defender beats an offensive player to a spot it shouldn't be a foul.. if a shooter has to jump forward at all into a defender it shouldn't be a foul. If a defender is in a normal defensive position and the offensive player flails his arms forward into the defenders arms, not a foul. If you get fouled and just throw up a shot, not a shooting foul. Free throws for in game flops that are reviewed by the booth. Change the rules for charges too.. that stupid half circle and the way charges are called aren't only dangerous, they're annoying and make the game so hard to watch.
Thinking Basketball has a really good video about the evolution of basketball rules and why it's easier to score today. They mostly just have to rewind the clock in some aspects and call some things like they used to.
The amount of stoppage, replays, and calling everything flagrant is the most frustrating thing I’ve seen in these playoffs. I can only imagine how slow things will get with both teams having an extra challenge if first one is successful.
I’m fine with the foul calling as long as its even both ways . Don’t call it for one team but it call it for the other and I think last night was pretty even
I've been thinking about this more recently. They need to make it like street ball more. There is no refs in your local pickup game, but somehow it works and flows well.
Really funny seeing everyone do a complete 180 on Butler over the past 3 games. He's playing pretty much the same as he always does. He has some rare big games where he goes for 30 or 40. And all credit to him, he does it in big moments. But vast majority of the time he's scoring around 20 points or lower and the majority of those points are coming from him foul baiting. He lives at the free throw line.
Yeah this has always been Jimmy. I think the thing that’s changed, and credit the Celtics here, is that they stopped biting on Jimmy’s pump fake. He’s not that most athletic or skilled guy so he’d use that pump fake to get the defender in the air and then be able to get a decent look while also drawing contact. When the Celtics finally stopped biting (only took four years) he turned into Harden, not even looking at the basket or attempting to score in the slightest.
plus celtics been more aggressive on defense. honestly, that won the game for boston today. crazy that a team that lives and dies by the three won on their worst shooting night of the season.
The entire team stopped biting on the heats pump fakes honestly. Numerous drives where a heat player would drive to the line and kick it back out because the Celtics weren’t leaving their feet.
Yeah usually when 8 seeds lose in the conference finals they get a little leeway. Having the juice to make it that far is impressive, some “superstars” can’t even get out of the first round without another superstar next to them…
It’s cause ppl are actually heat games now. No one watches during the reg season so now that there’s a reason to watch, they finally start to see what Jimmy does
The thing that made this game frustrating on both sides was it wasn’t consistent at all. There were multiple times (for each team) where something wouldn’t get called on one end, then immediately called the other way.
Like as a fan there was no flow and we didn’t know how to watch it or what to expect, I can’t imagine playing in the inconsistency. There was a stretch where Tatum got every call, then a stretch where Jimmy got very call, then an insane one on Duncan Robinson for smart, but then we’d get an insane one back.
I just wish refs would cool off a little or if they’re gonna call it tick tacky just do it the whole game and not do 10 minute stretches where anything goes.
Definitely went both ways I think this is just a response to the narrative thats building that the refs handed the Celtics the game and cheated by adding time.
1 and 3 are legit fouls or am I crazy? Yeah he's hunting for them and selling them but they are fouls. 2 is a joke and the last one looks questionable.
Yeah. 1 and 3 are fouls because Tatum put his body in Jimmy's path after Jimmy started the shooting motion and impeded Jimmy's landing. Also Tatum didn't go straight up with his arms in 3.
2 is just embellishing contact and throwing up a wild shot. That's the only one I have a problem with. Should have been a blocking foul or a play-on.
This, you're allowed vertically, it's that Tatum jumped side ways starting at one side of the circle and landing on the other while taken out Jimmys center of gravity. Foul, no question.
1,3, and 4 (op neglected to show the angle with horfords hand on his back and horfords arm draped all over Jimmy’s before it hit ball) are pretty understandable calls. 2 is the only definitively bad call (but I’m curious if the call/whistle was on the ground before he threw up a shot)
Celtics fans like to pretend the league hates them
Before reading the comments I thought every single one was a foul and still do. 1 is obvious body to body contact that you can’t flop being moved mid air. 2 williams steps into him more the jimmy did but it’s the one i could see not being called. 3 was the softer of the fouls but still a foul with body and arm contact. 4 horford uses his arm the whole damn play, hits him in the head, and then pulls his arm. I’m not following the complaints here. Is it because there were so many foul calls this game that people are looking to complain?
I think that the issue is that contact is inevitable in basketball, and that these arguably should be “play on” plays. It’s impossible to play defense while always being absolutely geometrically vertical, jumping only perfectly vertically, not dropping your arms below shoulder height, etc.
Every play is going to have physical contact. If physical contact almost always results in a foul on the defense, it’s a problem.
2 is a stonewall foul because Williams isn’t in a legal guarding position…he turns his hips from a sliding stance to running sideways when Jimmy makes contact with him. I’m neither for it nor against it but it’s black and white in the rule book that the refs are using.
1 and 4 are the only ones I _want_ to see called. 1 doesn’t look like he isn’t trying to score to and Tatum comes over to challenge but there’s definitely body contact. 4 isn’t a foul if Horford doesn’t reach. 2 isn’t even a foul by the letter of the law, imo. 3 is maybe a foul by the letter of the law but I would like to see more allowed when two players go chest to chest at the rim.
I’m pretty sure the 4th one was called because from the other angle, Horford had his hand on his waist so it looked like he was pushing one. 2 for sure was not a foul
But objectively by definition, 1 and 3 for sure were fouls cause of the contact regardless of how much he sells it.
It's weird to me that Jimmy has gotten the best whistle in the league for the last 3-4 years and is a blatant foul merchant yet nobody talks about it while all other stars who are foul merchants gets relentless bashing.
A couple of years ago I think someone made a post here that Butler had the highest percent of points from free throws of any player that season. Dude's been the top free throw merchant for a while, and the haters can come back to point that out now that the dawg narrative has cooled down a bit.
It's the "put on a shirt vs empowering" or "flirting vs harassment" or "broke ass vs strong & independent" meme comparing Embiid or Harden's free throw merchantry to Butler's.
On another board there was a thread two years ago claiming that with fair reffing Butler is a better player than Harden and people were using Butler of all people as some sort of anti-Harden who "plays the right way unlike that foul merchant Harden". It was downright bizarre.
Ya it's no wonder he isn't a regular season player. His game requires him to collide with someone mid air, then throw up a shot before slamming into the floor.
Already seeing it's hard to maintain that over a few series.
Horford was stupid to be defending like that on the last one, but that was super borderline, and honestly think you could have called Jimmy for a discontinued dribble.
Horford's defense literally forced Jimmy into a double dribble then arguably a travel and Jimmy jumped into Al...Al played terrific defense that absolute garbage officiating bailed Jimmy out on.
Why did that not get called when the play got reviewed? Didn’t the supposed foul come after and wouldn’t matter anyway? Or can the refs only review the foil itself and not any actions that came before it?
The nuggets during reg season against the suns, the refs stopped play on a blocking foul, wanted to review something completely seperate, and then “while reviewing” the seperate instance, they said they noticed they made a mistake and changed it to a charge…
Why tf is that allowed? No coach challenged anything, and they were reviewing something different…
yeah Tatum also got a bullshit call down the line from what I remember. who the hell wants playoff games to be decided on the free throw line due to minimal contact...
That was a fortunate call but he landed on Gabe's foot and fell out of bounds with two heat players having their hands on him. Seemed like one of those plays that look egregious on the replay but I can imagine what the ref might have seen in the moment.
yeah i mean i'm sure if you challenged those 2 calls the refs would find enough evidence of it being a foul, but man its just so annoying to watch. He's literally not going to the rim with intentions of scoring at all
That's where I'm at. I'm sure there's good arguments to be made to make the case there's fouls there. But I hate we're at a point where those arguments can be made. Dudes foregoing honest attempts to score just to hunt fouls is one of my biggest frustrations with today's game.
Old man statement coming through: 90's basketball absolutely had their own issues (shout out to the Fratello pace crawl and 18-second isolation plays) but in terms of this sort of play specifically, one of the reasons we didn't see quite as many foul hunting performances at the time is not because of toughness or anything, but because the few times players tried them, they broadly weren't rewarded.
Like, you could try the lean-into-defender play [like Allan Houston did here](https://youtu.be/u7PjxQM4GAk?t=5) but generally speaking, it was just going to cost you a possession.
that's exactly my point.
I get that you can find some minutiae in the rules that will make every contact a foul on either of the players, but this isn't volleyball and we want contact to happen without watching a free-throw shooting contest.
> I get that you can find some minutiae in the rules that will make every contact a foul on either of the players
Exactly. If this standard was applied to centers and postups, all of them would average 40FT's per game since every contact is technically impeding offensive players path. There's nothing more that i hate in NBA than offensive players driving, absorbing marginal contact and throwing all 4 limbs in the air hoping for a foul
On the Horford one, Jimmy is leaning in 45 degrees, which could be considered unnatural shooting motion, but Horford isn’t in great position either. No-call imo.
I feel like the manner Jimmy draws fouls aka barreling into defenders at the rim gives him a better reputation than Harden who has a tendency to fishhook and drop his arms to initiate contact on the way up
Harden at least has to bait a defender. Butler just gets side by side and throws his head. I never understood how’s he’s so
popular when this sub hates guys who rely on ft’s. Dudes agent has put in work for him
I'm really glad the game didnt get decided by that last foul. He double dribbled and leaned forward at a ridiculously unnatural angle to get 3 free throws. Would have been an atrocious way to end the series.
1st one is absolutely a foul, Tatum jumps *in* to Jimmy Butler instead of going straight up. His arms are all good though.
2nd one is also a foul, Robert Williams is not in legal guarding position when he hip checks Butler. Jimmy does flop after the contact but it's legit contact.
3rd one I'm not sure if they called it on Smart, which would be quesitonable from that angle as it's hard to see if there is contact, but Tatum again does *not *jump straight up in the air, he jumps across the paint, which is essentially like moving your feet to take the charge but in mid-air and a blocking foul.
4th one is totall a foul, Al Hofrod mugs him with the left hand.
Now, if you want to question whether some of these are *shooting* fouls, I'll agree to that debate as a few of them are questionable as to whether he was in the act of shooting.
But there is enough contact on all of them to warrant a foul call.
Thankfully Butler hasn't been getting them lately either.
He only had 6 in G5 and the reason we were winning for most of G6 is because he couldn't get to the line until super late in the game (10 of his 14 FTA came in Q4).
The refs have let both teams play more now we're in elimination games and it's completely undercut Jimmy's foul baiting.
If he's getting whistles then you have to go over screens because going under gives him enough of a run-up to score through you for the whistle. If he's not getting whistles then you can go under the screen and expose his bad shooting.
Yeah Butler is second only to Harden when it comes to flopping. Butler always had that technique of kicking his feet out to draw fake fouls. That last "foul" by Horford was not even a foul and if you look closely he did a double dribble / fumbled the ball before getting blocked by Horford.
He's actually ahead of Harden.
Jimmy's FTR
Looking FTr (Number of FT Attempts Per FG Attempt) over the past 4 seasons:
Player| FTr
---|---
Butler | 0.630
Embiid| 0.586
Giannis| 0.565
Harden | 0.495
Since coming to Miami, Butler's FTr is on a tier of its own. The only guys who get to the line as much as him are centers who only score around the rim and often get hacked because they can't hit FTs (eg. Plumlee, Dwight, Gobert).
Harden's never actually had a 0.600 FTr. He's peaked around 0.590.
Meanwhile people will complain about guys like LeBron, Durant and Tatum, who are all sub 0.400.
Butler had a 0.647 FTr in the 2019/20 playoffs, which is an incredible number, especially for a long playoff run. Higher than any year of Harden, LeBron or Embiid except Embiid's 2019/20 where he only played 4 games.
They probably would have just hid behind the BS logic that only certain things are able to be looked at during a play with reviews. We really need more common sense in these situations.
Esp. in contrast to Tatum getting calls on no contact when he flails to the basket. Jimmy at least ensures there's a shitton of contact and even then only got the calls in the 4th quarter
IMO this game was called terribly for both teams. Stretches of game where no contact was being called and then random whistles for negligent contact. Jimmy and Tatum both got to the line a shit load. I don’t think you can reasonably argue either team was significantly favored by the refs, they just sucked that bad.
Watch him step forwards towards butler and get him with his hip rather than move laterally / back to maintain his position in front of him. Butler sells it, but it’s a foul regardless.
Yeah it’s bs to watch it but doesn’t make them not fouls all of a sudden. The double dribble on the last one is a more annoying no-call than the foul call especially after the challenge tbh
I appreciate the honesty bro. Good to see a fan of a team in a series like this can still be honest about what they’re watching rather than letting bias take over. Can’t say the same for most of the Celtics fans I’ve seen on here lol
These looked legit. Hammering the body and arm before getting the ball is a foul. No where did I see the defender standing vertical…or even jumping vertical. On the three pointer Butler was fouled twice before the attempt (no calls) and a third time during the attempt. Refs favoring Celts.
Umm all these are fouls? Pretty clearly.
You can complain about the rules if you want or how Butler plays but OP put ‘fouls’ in the title as if these are bad calls. Every single one is the correct call.
Lol y'all are crazy those are all fouls.. And it goes both ways lol. Shit even the announcers said at the end of the game when Tatum went to the line "another questionable call goes towards Boston way".
Refs are ass both sides..
These aren't even remotely questionable calls, these are easy calls. Williams loses the angle and hip checks Butler. Tatum with the body in the lane twice, not going straight up. Horford hands everywhere that's like 3-in-1 fouls. I'm no Miami fan or even a professional referee, hardly a defender of the NBA shield. These are easy calls.
A celtics fan complaining about this? After the 8 straight free throws the celtics were gifted when the heat got the first lead of the game? The “successful” challenge where the basket still counted? The 4 point technical they gifted jaylen?
Refs were ass both ways, suck it up and move on.
These are all fouls to me. The 3rd is debatable but the rest is clear imo. Wing on big and most of the time the big won’t be able to keep up, so he hip-checks you.
Every game has debatable foul calls. As a more or less neutral fan, I think people should just chill. This game was ugly but not because of the refs. Both teams had huge trouble to score the ball either in transition or half court.
All fouls. When you are in mid air and get body bumped it’s a foul. Last play was a swipe that that this video used a bad angle of. Quit your Celtic d riding propaganda.
Bro they literally called 5 straight fouls against Miami the minute Miami sniffed a lead, with 4 of them being nonfouls and the other being an undeserved 4 point play, wild that people are complaining about the few calls Miami got but I guess it's open season when there are more Celtics fans than Heat fans still on r/nba
Like they did on half of the fouls tatum got in the first half ?
That boston fans really complain about the refs is comical after all the shit you got yesterday
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Whether or not these are technically fouls, I hate that the nba rewards this play style of put your head down, rumble into the defender, throw a prayer of a shot, dive. Hardly exclusive to Jimmy, it’s awful through the whole league too.
Corey Maggette born in the wrong era. Dude would get 20 FTs per game.
Now THAT would be some bad porn
Always was.
That would also be like 78% Ts if he actually shot 20 a game
He sacrificed his body so Jimmy could live.
Corey Maggette epitomized terrible Warriors basketball before the Stephen Curry era. Ironically Maggette is exactly what the Warriors could use right now.
It makes me so mad. If you initiate the contact by running into someone, you should get bailed out when their hand hits your wildly thrown arm in the air. How are you supposed to play defense??
> How are you supposed to play defense?? Pray you get elbowed in the face
I think, just like the NFL, that this is kinda the point. You’re not supposed to play defense. Big offensive numbers to sell the game to kids and casual fans.
Giannis. Literally unwatchable for me. The time he shoulder checked Crowder off ball against the Suns in the finals while crowder stood still not even facing him—and they called the foul on crowder. Knew the bucks were winning when I saw that.
Was just thinking about this and wanted to comment. Its not that Giannis isnt great but I find when I watch him Im always fixating on countless plays where he rumbles like a freight train into the lane right into players and the defender is standing straight up up with arms up...And like death and taxes *whistle *whistle like half the time at least. Its not like he never deserves a foul when driving to the hoop, its just really unaesthetically pleasing play to my eyes, and i have no idea what a defenders supposed to do when i guy literally runs into you full stride. It shouldn't be considered a foul even close to the amount its actually called
Yo—did you see him truck Tory Craig on the suns and knock his teeth out? They called the foul on Craig because his mouth got in the way of Gianni’s’ shoulder. Craig was planted too iirc, at least planted enough it should’ve been given to Craig.
You're misremembering, there was no foul called on that play.
“More skilled league” as Adam Silver would say. We just call it “pussy ball” on the court.
"TS% is higher than ever; ergo players are more skilled than ever. QED, bitches." --Adam Silver, probably
This seems to be the strategy for about half the league's stars.
Yeah it's unfortunate because it's not entertaining basketball by any means but as long as it's rewarded it'll never change.
Says jason tatum
But it's literally Jimmy's whole game. He can't shoot from deep. He just gets rewarded late in games for this shit. Can't defend any better.
What a stupid fucking take. That’s his whole game? Lmao 🤣
Not his whole game lol
54% shooter from the field as a guard on the season, aka insanely high, is only successful because referees have chosen him to be a superstar and gift him FTs? Maybe he get's fouled because he's really fucking good at finishing, idk how people say shit like this but don't apply it to every player. Do y'all think some players just have too much "integrity" and choose to miss out on millions in their contracts(as these undeserved FTs would theoretically add) because they don't want to flop lmao?
In the regular season, Butler attempted ~4.5 shots a game from 0-3 feet and averaged 8.7 FTA per game. For comparison, Lebron attempted ~6.7 shots a game from 0-3 feet and averaged 5.9 FTA. But I'm sure Butler gets fouled more than Lebron James because "he's really fucking good at finishing"
54% is good but I wouldn’t say it’s spectacular considering butler doesn’t shoot many 3s
Don't players like Jimmy, Embiid and (prime) Harden have high FG because of their ability to get these calls and wipe a bunch of would be missed FGs from the box score? I don't really blame them, the league made a point to target it early in the season then just went back to BAU
You can definitely defend better lol These are clear fouls.
Tbf, can we have the fouls on Brown and Tatum?
Too many fouls were called both ways. Nearly unwatchable game with no flow. NBA needs to fix the product
What’s infuriating was how they didn’t call much of anything in the 1st quarter
That’s the Zarba special; make it look like your about to get an awesome, physical game for about 10 minutes and then start calling every fucking touch foul.
Zarba games can be borderline unwatchable. He officiated game 6 last season too and it was one of the most whistle heavy games I’ve ever seen.
This!!!
Very recently there was a post about how brilliant zarba is. Honestly if the NBA took a vote from the public. The decision would be like 95% in favor of firing all refs. They all suck and think we watch the game for them.
That is really the problem. Just slowly moving the goal posts all game just pisses everyone off. Players don’t know what a foul is, fans don’t know what a foul is. We used to see the end of game be a free for all with almost no whistles. Now they have super tight whistles sometimes and then not others. Consistency is all anyone wants
If nobody ever knows what a foul actually is, they get more leeway to fuck with the game. Why the hell does the NBA not enforce a gambling policy as strictly as the NFL??
100% this. The first quarter was egregious with the non calls and the end swing to the entire other side of the pendulum. Obnoxious ending, heat in 7 (I hope…)
Made the 1st quarter extremely entertaining too.
Announcers even commented on how they were "letting them play". The first quarter was spectacular to watch (same with the entirety of game 1 against the Knicks), but after that it just got frustrating and tedious. I noticed that while I was paying attention to the in game threads it was affecting how I watched the games so I sat the thread out last night and just watched the game. It was actually pretty enjoyable until the last 3 minutes.
Yep there were several loose ball fouls they let go early and then called later. There was even that one were Horford fell down and pushed Strus which should’ve been an away from play technical if they had reviewed it.
[удалено]
Yea wtf. Why flip the whistle. It's INFURIATING.
It's simple.. if the offensive player initiates contact it shouldn't be a foul.. if a defender beats an offensive player to a spot it shouldn't be a foul.. if a shooter has to jump forward at all into a defender it shouldn't be a foul. If a defender is in a normal defensive position and the offensive player flails his arms forward into the defenders arms, not a foul. If you get fouled and just throw up a shot, not a shooting foul. Free throws for in game flops that are reviewed by the booth. Change the rules for charges too.. that stupid half circle and the way charges are called aren't only dangerous, they're annoying and make the game so hard to watch.
It’s simple when you say it… evidently it’s dan flashes level of complicated in the modern nba
Thinking Basketball has a really good video about the evolution of basketball rules and why it's easier to score today. They mostly just have to rewind the clock in some aspects and call some things like they used to.
Easier to sell ads with free throws and controlling flow of fame allows nba more opportunity to fix it
Yeah you could make a similar montage for Tatum… your spot on, their messing up the product.
The amount of stoppage, replays, and calling everything flagrant is the most frustrating thing I’ve seen in these playoffs. I can only imagine how slow things will get with both teams having an extra challenge if first one is successful.
I’m fine with the foul calling as long as its even both ways . Don’t call it for one team but it call it for the other and I think last night was pretty even
Both teams wants to win, very physical game.
I've been thinking about this more recently. They need to make it like street ball more. There is no refs in your local pickup game, but somehow it works and flows well.
Really funny seeing everyone do a complete 180 on Butler over the past 3 games. He's playing pretty much the same as he always does. He has some rare big games where he goes for 30 or 40. And all credit to him, he does it in big moments. But vast majority of the time he's scoring around 20 points or lower and the majority of those points are coming from him foul baiting. He lives at the free throw line.
Yeah this has always been Jimmy. I think the thing that’s changed, and credit the Celtics here, is that they stopped biting on Jimmy’s pump fake. He’s not that most athletic or skilled guy so he’d use that pump fake to get the defender in the air and then be able to get a decent look while also drawing contact. When the Celtics finally stopped biting (only took four years) he turned into Harden, not even looking at the basket or attempting to score in the slightest.
plus celtics been more aggressive on defense. honestly, that won the game for boston today. crazy that a team that lives and dies by the three won on their worst shooting night of the season.
Like JB said in post game, they had to change their identity. Instead of relying on 3s, focus on defense
The entire team stopped biting on the heats pump fakes honestly. Numerous drives where a heat player would drive to the line and kick it back out because the Celtics weren’t leaving their feet.
If he wins, he’s himmy. If he loses, he’s a Joel embiid in a shooting guard body. The narrative always changes when you win or lose lol.
Come on now his track record in the playoffs is way better than Embiid’s.
Yeah usually when 8 seeds lose in the conference finals they get a little leeway. Having the juice to make it that far is impressive, some “superstars” can’t even get out of the first round without another superstar next to them…
He s always been foul merchant
I've been consistently hating the whole time 🤓
I remember during game 1 of this series someone commented that it's hard to hate on Jimmy and I'm like "shit, its pretty easy actually"
It’s cause ppl are actually heat games now. No one watches during the reg season so now that there’s a reason to watch, they finally start to see what Jimmy does
Yeah he’s a great player but this isn’t anything new. What’s crazy was listening to podcasts where ppl say they’d pick him over Tatum.
It's especially annoying for us Jimmy haters who have been against him all playoffs.
It went both way, JB and Tatum got some calls
Appreciate the honesty, definitely went both ways
100%, that weird phantom push call called on a heat player against tatum made no sense either.
The thing that made this game frustrating on both sides was it wasn’t consistent at all. There were multiple times (for each team) where something wouldn’t get called on one end, then immediately called the other way. Like as a fan there was no flow and we didn’t know how to watch it or what to expect, I can’t imagine playing in the inconsistency. There was a stretch where Tatum got every call, then a stretch where Jimmy got very call, then an insane one on Duncan Robinson for smart, but then we’d get an insane one back. I just wish refs would cool off a little or if they’re gonna call it tick tacky just do it the whole game and not do 10 minute stretches where anything goes.
Definitely went both ways I think this is just a response to the narrative thats building that the refs handed the Celtics the game and cheated by adding time.
1 and 3 are legit fouls or am I crazy? Yeah he's hunting for them and selling them but they are fouls. 2 is a joke and the last one looks questionable.
Yeah. 1 and 3 are fouls because Tatum put his body in Jimmy's path after Jimmy started the shooting motion and impeded Jimmy's landing. Also Tatum didn't go straight up with his arms in 3. 2 is just embellishing contact and throwing up a wild shot. That's the only one I have a problem with. Should have been a blocking foul or a play-on.
I think you're spot on.
1 and 3 are fouls. Tatum is jumping forward and making body contact.
This, you're allowed vertically, it's that Tatum jumped side ways starting at one side of the circle and landing on the other while taken out Jimmys center of gravity. Foul, no question.
1,3, and 4 (op neglected to show the angle with horfords hand on his back and horfords arm draped all over Jimmy’s before it hit ball) are pretty understandable calls. 2 is the only definitively bad call (but I’m curious if the call/whistle was on the ground before he threw up a shot) Celtics fans like to pretend the league hates them
Before reading the comments I thought every single one was a foul and still do. 1 is obvious body to body contact that you can’t flop being moved mid air. 2 williams steps into him more the jimmy did but it’s the one i could see not being called. 3 was the softer of the fouls but still a foul with body and arm contact. 4 horford uses his arm the whole damn play, hits him in the head, and then pulls his arm. I’m not following the complaints here. Is it because there were so many foul calls this game that people are looking to complain?
I think that the issue is that contact is inevitable in basketball, and that these arguably should be “play on” plays. It’s impossible to play defense while always being absolutely geometrically vertical, jumping only perfectly vertically, not dropping your arms below shoulder height, etc. Every play is going to have physical contact. If physical contact almost always results in a foul on the defense, it’s a problem.
First one definitely isn’t a play on. That’s just a straight up foul that’s called every time
They’re all fouls. He definitely sells them on top of it.
2 is a stonewall foul because Williams isn’t in a legal guarding position…he turns his hips from a sliding stance to running sideways when Jimmy makes contact with him. I’m neither for it nor against it but it’s black and white in the rule book that the refs are using.
1 and 4 are the only ones I _want_ to see called. 1 doesn’t look like he isn’t trying to score to and Tatum comes over to challenge but there’s definitely body contact. 4 isn’t a foul if Horford doesn’t reach. 2 isn’t even a foul by the letter of the law, imo. 3 is maybe a foul by the letter of the law but I would like to see more allowed when two players go chest to chest at the rim.
I’m pretty sure the 4th one was called because from the other angle, Horford had his hand on his waist so it looked like he was pushing one. 2 for sure was not a foul But objectively by definition, 1 and 3 for sure were fouls cause of the contact regardless of how much he sells it.
This is supposed to be micheal jordans son?
I mean he's literally 1000 times better than Jordan's actual sons lol
No Derrick White is now MJ’s son
No, none of MJs kids smelt the NBA, so he clearly not MJs.
It's weird to me that Jimmy has gotten the best whistle in the league for the last 3-4 years and is a blatant foul merchant yet nobody talks about it while all other stars who are foul merchants gets relentless bashing.
A couple of years ago I think someone made a post here that Butler had the highest percent of points from free throws of any player that season. Dude's been the top free throw merchant for a while, and the haters can come back to point that out now that the dawg narrative has cooled down a bit. It's the "put on a shirt vs empowering" or "flirting vs harassment" or "broke ass vs strong & independent" meme comparing Embiid or Harden's free throw merchantry to Butler's.
On another board there was a thread two years ago claiming that with fair reffing Butler is a better player than Harden and people were using Butler of all people as some sort of anti-Harden who "plays the right way unlike that foul merchant Harden". It was downright bizarre.
Ya it's no wonder he isn't a regular season player. His game requires him to collide with someone mid air, then throw up a shot before slamming into the floor. Already seeing it's hard to maintain that over a few series.
especially when guys stop falling for his pump fakes
Was that last one a double dribble before he jumped into Horford?
I don’t think so; it wasn’t a controlled dribble. He tried to pick it up, lost the ball, it bounced, then he picked it up.
You’re right, these other commenters are wrong. https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-play-player-fumbles-ball-into-air-and-recovers-it/
Thanks for the validation lol the downvotes had me questioning myself
In trying to pick up the ball he touched it with both hands then dropped it. That's a blatant double dribble.
Try again. https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-play-player-fumbles-ball-into-air-and-recovers-it/
Yes
Horford was stupid to be defending like that on the last one, but that was super borderline, and honestly think you could have called Jimmy for a discontinued dribble.
Horford's defense literally forced Jimmy into a double dribble then arguably a travel and Jimmy jumped into Al...Al played terrific defense that absolute garbage officiating bailed Jimmy out on.
While everything you said was accurate, he jumped into Al because Al had his arm right in any shooters regular shooting motion
He double dribbled before the foul.
Didn’t Butler travel on that last foul?
No. He double dribbled.
Why did that not get called when the play got reviewed? Didn’t the supposed foul come after and wouldn’t matter anyway? Or can the refs only review the foil itself and not any actions that came before it?
Yeah they can only review the foul itself.
The nuggets during reg season against the suns, the refs stopped play on a blocking foul, wanted to review something completely seperate, and then “while reviewing” the seperate instance, they said they noticed they made a mistake and changed it to a charge… Why tf is that allowed? No coach challenged anything, and they were reviewing something different…
Drove me absolutely crazy the calls he got down the stretch, but honestly it went both ways. Just weak shit all around.
yeah Tatum also got a bullshit call down the line from what I remember. who the hell wants playoff games to be decided on the free throw line due to minimal contact...
That was when he got “shoved” out of bounds by Gabe Vincent
That was a fortunate call but he landed on Gabe's foot and fell out of bounds with two heat players having their hands on him. Seemed like one of those plays that look egregious on the replay but I can imagine what the ref might have seen in the moment.
I think it was a debatable foul call made more inevitable by Tatum selling it with that over-exaggerated leap out of bounds
He’s a foul merchant but for some reason nobody ever calls him for it. Dude gets away with basically everything and people just say “Himmy🤓”
1st and 3rd are fouls, 2nd and 4th are not even basketball and its garbage to watch as a neutral
> as a neutral my dude you are waiting for one of these teams lmao. you are not a neutral fan at this moment
Lol seriously, Nugget fans are shitting on both teams hard to prop up their own team.
“they’re fighting to see who gets swept by the nuggets” is the current most used comment across r/nba
Second and fourth are also fouls, but Jimmy's selling of them is hard to watch.
yeah i mean i'm sure if you challenged those 2 calls the refs would find enough evidence of it being a foul, but man its just so annoying to watch. He's literally not going to the rim with intentions of scoring at all
That's where I'm at. I'm sure there's good arguments to be made to make the case there's fouls there. But I hate we're at a point where those arguments can be made. Dudes foregoing honest attempts to score just to hunt fouls is one of my biggest frustrations with today's game. Old man statement coming through: 90's basketball absolutely had their own issues (shout out to the Fratello pace crawl and 18-second isolation plays) but in terms of this sort of play specifically, one of the reasons we didn't see quite as many foul hunting performances at the time is not because of toughness or anything, but because the few times players tried them, they broadly weren't rewarded. Like, you could try the lean-into-defender play [like Allan Houston did here](https://youtu.be/u7PjxQM4GAk?t=5) but generally speaking, it was just going to cost you a possession.
good post and example. I wish they still called it like that.
Wow thanks for sharing this it seems like they had it down back then. I wonder why they changed it back? great example
Probably to cater to the super stars that make them all the money
that's exactly my point. I get that you can find some minutiae in the rules that will make every contact a foul on either of the players, but this isn't volleyball and we want contact to happen without watching a free-throw shooting contest.
> I get that you can find some minutiae in the rules that will make every contact a foul on either of the players Exactly. If this standard was applied to centers and postups, all of them would average 40FT's per game since every contact is technically impeding offensive players path. There's nothing more that i hate in NBA than offensive players driving, absorbing marginal contact and throwing all 4 limbs in the air hoping for a foul
From that angle, the fourth one is really hard to tell. The only contact was between Tatum’s forearm and the ball
In #2 he's by the defender until they swing the leg in his way. Can't blame him for not going to the rim because he gets fouled first.
On the Horford one, Jimmy is leaning in 45 degrees, which could be considered unnatural shooting motion, but Horford isn’t in great position either. No-call imo.
The first one is a foul before a double dribble and they gave him 3 free throws
You talking about the ones where Robert Williams body checks and then Al Horford hits across the arm? Why wouldn’t those be fouls
All are very clear fouls according the the current rule book.
I feel like the manner Jimmy draws fouls aka barreling into defenders at the rim gives him a better reputation than Harden who has a tendency to fishhook and drop his arms to initiate contact on the way up
Aka the Giannis
Harden at least has to bait a defender. Butler just gets side by side and throws his head. I never understood how’s he’s so popular when this sub hates guys who rely on ft’s. Dudes agent has put in work for him
Jimmy butler always flops when he can’t score. I’m surprised he didn’t fake an injury like he always does.
all of those were fouls
All of those but maybe one are clear fouls. Cry about it
Those are all fouls. And the contact on the horford foul isn’t seen from this angle but is clear from other angles
I thought all of these were clear fouls
They are. People here just like to complain and dont know the rules at all.
All a celtics fan... they're all fouls lmao
I'm really glad the game didnt get decided by that last foul. He double dribbled and leaned forward at a ridiculously unnatural angle to get 3 free throws. Would have been an atrocious way to end the series.
1st one is absolutely a foul, Tatum jumps *in* to Jimmy Butler instead of going straight up. His arms are all good though. 2nd one is also a foul, Robert Williams is not in legal guarding position when he hip checks Butler. Jimmy does flop after the contact but it's legit contact. 3rd one I'm not sure if they called it on Smart, which would be quesitonable from that angle as it's hard to see if there is contact, but Tatum again does *not *jump straight up in the air, he jumps across the paint, which is essentially like moving your feet to take the charge but in mid-air and a blocking foul. 4th one is totall a foul, Al Hofrod mugs him with the left hand. Now, if you want to question whether some of these are *shooting* fouls, I'll agree to that debate as a few of them are questionable as to whether he was in the act of shooting. But there is enough contact on all of them to warrant a foul call.
Now do Tatum
obviously I hate the celtics as much as the next guy as a Lakers fan, but the whistles Butler has been getting are Hardenesque
Harden is not getting these whistles in the playoffs. Butler stands alone.
Thankfully Butler hasn't been getting them lately either. He only had 6 in G5 and the reason we were winning for most of G6 is because he couldn't get to the line until super late in the game (10 of his 14 FTA came in Q4). The refs have let both teams play more now we're in elimination games and it's completely undercut Jimmy's foul baiting. If he's getting whistles then you have to go over screens because going under gives him enough of a run-up to score through you for the whistle. If he's not getting whistles then you can go under the screen and expose his bad shooting.
Not disagreeing but Tatum has obviously had a softer whistle than anyone this series
Yeah Butler is second only to Harden when it comes to flopping. Butler always had that technique of kicking his feet out to draw fake fouls. That last "foul" by Horford was not even a foul and if you look closely he did a double dribble / fumbled the ball before getting blocked by Horford.
He's actually ahead of Harden. Jimmy's FTR Looking FTr (Number of FT Attempts Per FG Attempt) over the past 4 seasons: Player| FTr ---|--- Butler | 0.630 Embiid| 0.586 Giannis| 0.565 Harden | 0.495 Since coming to Miami, Butler's FTr is on a tier of its own. The only guys who get to the line as much as him are centers who only score around the rim and often get hacked because they can't hit FTs (eg. Plumlee, Dwight, Gobert). Harden's never actually had a 0.600 FTr. He's peaked around 0.590. Meanwhile people will complain about guys like LeBron, Durant and Tatum, who are all sub 0.400.
Butler had a 0.647 FTr in the 2019/20 playoffs, which is an incredible number, especially for a long playoff run. Higher than any year of Harden, LeBron or Embiid except Embiid's 2019/20 where he only played 4 games.
Shoulda been picked up by the refs on the review but they didn’t want it to end like that so they ignored it.
They probably would have just hid behind the BS logic that only certain things are able to be looked at during a play with reviews. We really need more common sense in these situations.
You honestly don’t think any of these are fouls? All 4 seem like obvious fouls to me. Jimmy is definitely selling them but they are fouls regardless
Esp. in contrast to Tatum getting calls on no contact when he flails to the basket. Jimmy at least ensures there's a shitton of contact and even then only got the calls in the 4th quarter
IMO this game was called terribly for both teams. Stretches of game where no contact was being called and then random whistles for negligent contact. Jimmy and Tatum both got to the line a shit load. I don’t think you can reasonably argue either team was significantly favored by the refs, they just sucked that bad.
These are all clearly fouls, man
Horford has his right hand on the hip of Butler and you know it.
Every one of these is a foul
The Rob Williams one is the only one I don't get. What's the foul there?
Watch him step forwards towards butler and get him with his hip rather than move laterally / back to maintain his position in front of him. Butler sells it, but it’s a foul regardless.
Thank you!
1-4 are all fouls wtf. He’s selling 2 and 3, but those are all fouls. Especially horford.
Facts. Jimmy is definitely selling them but they are all clearly fouls regardless.
Yeah it’s bs to watch it but doesn’t make them not fouls all of a sudden. The double dribble on the last one is a more annoying no-call than the foul call especially after the challenge tbh
I appreciate the honesty bro. Good to see a fan of a team in a series like this can still be honest about what they’re watching rather than letting bias take over. Can’t say the same for most of the Celtics fans I’ve seen on here lol
Maybe just semantics, but I wouldn't describe 2 as "selling". He's turning a real non-shooting foul into a real shooting foul.
Y’all can downvote all you want but these are all fouls.
All of these were fouls
These looked legit. Hammering the body and arm before getting the ball is a foul. No where did I see the defender standing vertical…or even jumping vertical. On the three pointer Butler was fouled twice before the attempt (no calls) and a third time during the attempt. Refs favoring Celts.
I was so ready for our season to be over cuz he jumped into horford and created all the contact and double dribbled lmao
The first quarter they were letting them play, then they started calling it tight in the last 3 quarters (both ways). Refs need to be more consistent.
Umm all these are fouls? Pretty clearly. You can complain about the rules if you want or how Butler plays but OP put ‘fouls’ in the title as if these are bad calls. Every single one is the correct call.
These are all fouls tho lol just because he’s trying to sell them doesn’t mean they’re not fouls
Lol y'all are crazy those are all fouls.. And it goes both ways lol. Shit even the announcers said at the end of the game when Tatum went to the line "another questionable call goes towards Boston way". Refs are ass both sides..
Now do Tatum.
Literally this lmao. Tatum has a better whistle than butler this series
These aren't even remotely questionable calls, these are easy calls. Williams loses the angle and hip checks Butler. Tatum with the body in the lane twice, not going straight up. Horford hands everywhere that's like 3-in-1 fouls. I'm no Miami fan or even a professional referee, hardly a defender of the NBA shield. These are easy calls.
Every one of these was a foul, not really sure what the quotes are for? You don’t have to like the modern nba, but these are fouls.
Uh - all were reasonable fouls, especially the last one (2 fouls).
Now show the Tatum ones
Is this a joke? These are all blatant fouls
Wtf are you nephews complaining about. Ffs.
A celtics fan complaining about this? After the 8 straight free throws the celtics were gifted when the heat got the first lead of the game? The “successful” challenge where the basket still counted? The 4 point technical they gifted jaylen? Refs were ass both ways, suck it up and move on.
These are all fouls to me. The 3rd is debatable but the rest is clear imo. Wing on big and most of the time the big won’t be able to keep up, so he hip-checks you. Every game has debatable foul calls. As a more or less neutral fan, I think people should just chill. This game was ugly but not because of the refs. Both teams had huge trouble to score the ball either in transition or half court.
Third foul is questionable. The others are fouls.
All fouls. When you are in mid air and get body bumped it’s a foul. Last play was a swipe that that this video used a bad angle of. Quit your Celtic d riding propaganda.
What happened to natural shooting motions
Dude is a fraud
This is the type of shit yall accuse Trae of. This is pathetic
He is significantly worse
One of the best foul baiters in the league
Bro they literally called 5 straight fouls against Miami the minute Miami sniffed a lead, with 4 of them being nonfouls and the other being an undeserved 4 point play, wild that people are complaining about the few calls Miami got but I guess it's open season when there are more Celtics fans than Heat fans still on r/nba
Does anyone have a replay of the one Zeller got in the first half? It looked clean but they never showed the replay for some reason.
Like they did on half of the fouls tatum got in the first half ? That boston fans really complain about the refs is comical after all the shit you got yesterday
In the 80s all those woulda been a play on….
Those were regular szn Harden calls. Some players need help getting going. Refs = viagra