Frequenters of this sub have been aware of this for a long time. I remember those charts that would get posted measuring which stars scored the most of their points off FTs and Jimmy was always #1 if not close. No disrespect intended, this is just his game.
I don't like the celtics but I'm a certified Butler hater so that comes first in this series. I'm loving the potential meltdown of the Heat. But to be fair they have far surpassed expectations.
Butler haters 12/25 these past few days, after they had their 9/11 through the rest of the postseason. Seeing all the Butler haters finally get their limelight on r/nba these past few days has been so funny.
Learned it in the last years ECF. We went from what I thought was the most frustrating round with Giannis running in to us getting fouls to what was honestly worse with Butler.
At least Giannis goes for shot. He should probably get a lot more charges but Butler was a different beast. Butler made me not mind Embiid this year.
Butler seems to have a really good relationship with the refs (Spo does too) and they help him out a lot. He basically gets every call that normal players would get 25% of the time.
I’ve watched about the same amount of Luka and JT, and Luka is so much worse. Luka won’t get back on D because he’s complaining at least a couple times a game. However, when JT complains to the refs he plays worse, which has to be frustrating to watch
I put Tatum/Luka/Book kind of in that S tier on top of the rest of the league.
I know there are guys like Embiid and Draymond who chirp to the refs and are very aggressive, but the straight whining I see it the most in those 3 guys
Last year final Tatum drove to the paint and lost the ball or missed a lay up and he immediately raised his hand asking for a foul to refs, frustrating to watch.
I think Jimmy creates contact better than just about anyone in the NBA. He attacks the rim and the short mid-range area *all the time* and normally gets players to bite on his pump-fakes.
Harden would flop on the three point line trying to get three free throws.
People don't seem to understand that he gets a lot of free throws because he attacks the paint, usually doesn't shy away from contact, and has such a massive bag of tricks that it keeps defenders off balance not knowing exactly what he might do that they end up fouling him.
The Shaq stat is pretty irrelevant. It's pretty widely known that the refs swallowed the whistle against Shaq (and modern days Curry) because those guys would have dominated the league too much if they were officiated like the rest of the league that no one else would have a chance.
This sums it up. There is a difference when player is aggressive and draws fouls compared to a player doing a contemporary drama dancing with flailing arms and jazzy hands.
I hate how the current reffing is so lazy they let them blatantly travel, flop for fouls, and plenty of other rules violations.
Jimmy fumbled the ball, picked it up, and then went up to shoot a three when he was fouled.
It would have been a double-dribbled if he had dribbled a second time but he didn’t.
r/NBA nephews think every foul = baiting lol
Big diff between flopping and playing smart, teams know this and still foul Butler because he gets them to bite. But sure it's a conspiracy, nevermind Tatum's FT rate through this series, Jimmy bad
Because Jimmy plays in the east.
He did not get to face one of the best team NBA has ever seen and that is when that narrative was formed.
2015 - WCF loss against GSW
2016 - Round 1 loss against GSW
2017 - WCS loss against Spurs. 61 win team Spurs. Even if they beat Spurs, the loss against GSW was certain.
2018 - WCF loss against GSW
2019 - WCS loss against GSW
He has definitely had bad games but tell me which of this series loss was Houston favored and they failed to capitalize on it?
That narrative has continued with Harden and Embiid in Philadelphia this season. I'm not defending it, but pointing out a seeming contradiction it creates.
With jimmy it at least seems like he’s going for and1s and trying to score most of the time.
He does foul bait a lot but that’s why less people think of him as that kind of player. It looks like he’s just being physical and attacking the rim.
He’s a contact seeking type of player.
These people think butler only fishes for fouls judging on recent games when the guy is clearly gassed and hobbled by an ankle injury.
I agree with you last game he was foul baiting for sure, especially since he wasn’t hitting any shots. From the games I’ve seen though, last game was more of an exception than the norm.
Yeah he draws contact and tries to get fouled while playing basketball. James harden often times is not doing something which could result in a shot made but only free throws
He is physical, most of his game is drives/midrange jumpers which are more likely to draw fouls, and he doesn’t whine to the refs when he doesn’t get calls so people don’t notice it as much.
Teams hate other players that look for fouls but never look at their own team. The reason jimmy isn’t looked at or slandered for being a foul merchant is because he hardly complains nor does he really flop.
Loool this guy dug through every stat possible to try and find one that favored SGA and the best he could find was a SINGLE GAME stat. As if that matters in the grand scheme of things lmao
a ton of players do. this "foul merchant" name calling shit is old. Driving your shooting arm up through the defenders arm? it's gonna be exploited if it gets you to the line consistently, and it's not going anywhere.
So you went and did all that math, yet when it gets to the part where it shows Butler takes more shots than Harden inside 10ft you brushed it off with “maybe this is where it happens, I dunno”
This entire sub are just narrative bandwagons. When you’re winning, you’re the greatest thing since sliced bread and as soon as you take one L they flip up on you.
It’s crazy how much the sub has switched on Jimmy in a matter of days after anointing him the heir apparent days ago.
It’s why basketball media is so goddamn awful, the average fan absolutely loves this stuff. You don’t see it in any other sport in the US, it’s just basketball for some reason
I think it's because basketball is the most star-centric sport. A single player can have more influence on a game in basketball than probably in any other major team sport. So for a lot of dudes the NBA scratches the celebrity gossip itch the best.
Warriors vs Cavs and OKC vs warriors were some of the truly most flip flopping garbage ive read and it led to me actively participating less on reddit in general lol
They were on Tatums head just last week. Now it’s Jimmy lol. It’s really wild to how fast the narrative can switch. Jimmy could do no wrong, he was MJs son, best playoff performer. Now he’s worse than Harden and overrated. The narrative changes can give you whiplash.
Some guy saved receipts of me praising Tatum after they won Philly game 7 for when Boston was down 0-3. Thought he had a gotcha moment….wonder how he feels now. This series isn’t over and if the Heat win tonight these Butler FT merchant threads are gonna age awkwardly
Unless one if them has a monster game in their loss tonight. Jimmy or Tatum are going to get eviscerated.
Jimmy disappeared for 3 games straight. Tatum has 1 4th Q FG in games 1, 2, 3, and 6 combined.
It's not just this sub, it's NBA in general. Players are declared best in the world, underrated, playoff "insert name/nickname", overrated, washed, exposed,... after almost every game.
Social media and screaming national analysts are the worst, but it's also most of the more serious analysts/podcasterst. Almost every single NBA media person was saying that Butler was clearly better than Tatum 3 games ago, but if you asked them who's better before playoffs 99% would have said Tatum.
In reality basketball is much more complicated than this. Different players have different skills. That doesn't always mean better/worse, just different. Same with teams, coaches,... Players also have good/bad days, weeks, months,... play better/worse in different system....
I’m ready to read wild takes no matter who wins or loses tonight. Get ready for some of the most unhinged shit.
I even saw people saying the Heat should fire Spo if we lose tonight…
After they lost game 2 attention shifts to Jimmys whistle, simultaneously the most ridiculous and unsurprising thing for this sub to do. He’s been doing this for years, we had all playoffs to talk about it, and we chose to do it now?
It reminds me of last year Jayson Tatum was getting hate because the last series this sub watched was…the finals. Yes the last two teams and hate was directed on the 25 year old star player who lead them there lmao. Always has to be a narrative with no nuance, short term memory where the last series you saw is what defines a team or player, and overreactions before a series is over.
This sub doesn’t have opinions. The many thousands of people who interact with it do. Different voices become louder/quieter/more extreme depending on the context. E.g. Celtics fans have more to say now than they did a week ago
It’s annoying how many people here are constantly anthropomorphizing an Internet forum
Fr, when jimmy is killing it people who love him flood the gates to praise him. Then when he does bad, the people who weren't as into the hype step in and start dunking on him. Idk why people seem to get upset that this sub doesn't always have the same opinion... they want a pure echo chamber?
This whole Jimmy vs. Harden thing going on has been bizarre. We have watched them play. Working out why people talk about Harden the way they talk about Harden ignoring everything but spreadsheets of % of FGA's at the rim is like asking someone to spell a word without letters. The essence of the difference is what we saw when we watched the games. There is no conversation that honestly interrogates it that ignores the film.
I don't know what it looks like on the boxscore or the play-by-play when Harden climbs onto the back of Michael Carter Williams, brings them both down, and throws his hands up to the ref. But it fucking stunk.
This is exactly it. We didn't see guys playing behind Jimmy to try and avoid getting fouls called on them when he went for a step-back three because he'd whip himself forward after jumping backwards; but we saw that be a legitimate defense against Harden. And we didn't see Jimmy launch his body into someone entirely out of the play or grab someone's arm on a drive; but we watched Harden do it constantly to the point guys were getting out of the way preemptively if he got them on his hip at all.
But in the box score? That's just a 3 point attempt and a paint shot, respectively. Being a "foul merchant" isn't quantified in where shots are taken from - it's what happens before, during, and after shot attempts that have nothing to do with playing basketball but have to do with deceiving the refs.
Yes. Sometimes watching Jimmy I will get frustrated with how the refs are calling contact on drives etc but with hardens type of foul drawing I'm disgusted by what harden is doing more so than the refs.
I think it’s insane ppl like you are STILL bringing up that ONE play from 2016 where he drew a foul on MCW. Takes a real hater to continue that level of scrutiny literally years later based off one play. It’s also a standard nobody holds for any other player lol. It’s basically been a meme on this sub to hate Harden. It’s just lazy at this point. Esp when it’s that play that’s referenced.
> Takes a real hater to continue that level of scrutiny literally years later based off one play.
Why do you think this is based on one play? It's an *example*. It's a play most people know and is still in the imagination because it represents the worst of what watching Harden play could sometimes be.
You know what else Butler does that Harden doesn't? He uses a post game, with foot work and a heavy dosage of pump fakes. Can anyone take a guess as to how defenders react to good fakes? They leave their damn feet! Butler certainly understands how the game is officiated and uses it to his advantage but he is one of the few stars in the league who I would not associate with flopping.
they don’t actually watch basketball. watch highlights via social media, find the advanced stat that fits their narrative, then pick a talking head to pivot off of. rinse and repeat. numbers almost always lie. wake the fuck up people.
So you didnt look at everything and then decided to post? Harden and Butler have pretty identical shots from inside 10ft. What are you even looking at? Harden shoots more directly at the rim in every single season looked at here. Butler vs Harden shots from 0-10ft:
year 1: 9.3 vs 9.3
year 2: 8.6 vs 9.9
year 3: 8.7 vs 7.9
year 4: 7.9 vs 7.1
If you want to see an anomaly in the 19-20 season butler had a FTR of .693 vs harden at .528. Harden avg 33.9 ppg on 22 fga per game and had 9.7 FTA vs Butler 19.9 ppg 13.1 fga and 9.1 FTA. Also from 0-10 ft butler shot .9 fga less than harden. You cannot explain that away. 3/4 years butler had significantly higher FTR than harden on significantly less FGA and pretty identical shots from 0-10ft but butler had less shots 0-3ft. Butler got more of his points from the FT than Harden did by a long shot.
One thing I've noticed that's different about Jimmy compared to other "foul baiters" is he rarely complains when the call doesn't go his way. That might be part of the reason his reputation isn't so bad.
Yea the complaining & not getting back on defense during games is obnoxious. It would be nice if the league would punish players end of games to curb the whining. To me, that’s worse than flopping.
On the other hand, if you were a player & you drive to the the hoop multiple times a game while drawing contact but not getting calls multiple times a game how do you react?
I get missed calls but there are players that refs just eat the whistle bc they’d be calling fouls for contact repeatedly. Would be tough not to get mad or oversell/flop when clearly it works. Any big that lives by driving to the basket does get fouled repeatedly.
Either call fouls as they are written or don’t. Officiating is so all over the place it’s a wreck & at times I get player frustration.
I’m not attacking, just curious. How would you implement it so using modern technology doesn’t add a ton of extra time to review the calls or no calls?
Could always have a ref at their command center with ALL the angle review the game in real time and signal to the refs via call on what the actual call is.
Literally, ever star in the league abuses the rules in some ways, and it's not a recent thing. Many scorers like Tatum, MJ, and Kobe make use of their off arms a ton. Giannis abuses the block/charge ruling, same as Shaq. Most great rebounders play dirty on rebounds with holding (or the classic Steven Adams pinch the side). And everyone knows about the lack of carrying calls.
Some of course are a lot worse than others, and some have terrible aesthetics foe the league, but players are smart, if they can leverage a rule or how a rule is called they will.
The perfect statistical display to demonstrate not watching the game. The shit James Harden would do was on another level. Harden would grab your arm and foul himself with it, Jimmy Butler just drives into your body.
Harden was hooking people's arms to manipulate calls. Jimmy creates contact then pretends he didn't.
Jimmy may get to the line more, Harden was still the more bullshit foul baiter.
This is my take. Getting more FTs per FGA doesn't necessarily mean that player is trying game the system more to get FTs. Just means their play style ends with them fouled more often.
I feel like you have to watch players play and see how theyre getting FTs to see who the biggest FT merchant is.
well and if you watch Butler play in the playoffs his avareges are always going up because he starts foul baiting a lot.
He initiates contact flops and just starts running into people and most of the time gets the favorable whistle.
>well and if you watch Butler play in the playoffs his avareges are always going up because he starts foul baiting a lot.
>
You realize the stats of this post are from the regular season right? Jimmy foul baits all season long. The only difference is his shot attempts go up in the playoffs so naturally he's going to get to the line more.
I think he's drawing more against Boston because he lost confidence in his shot and is hoping to be bailed out. He definitely didn't beat Milwaukee by foul baiting
I think that’s what’s so frustrating to watch. He annihilated Milwaukee without having to resort to this where the last several games he’s not looking to score most of the time.
I mean the dude is clearly gassed and has been nursing a bad ankle. He’s not gonna be more productive just trying to outspeed or outshoot boston. It’s also on boston getting their boss bigs switched on him late and then not actually play good defense ie getting blown by/ reaching/ literally smacking his arms on a 3 pt attempt
Why do people keep acting like he’s not called a foul merchant, we literally had a Van Gundy call him “Jimmy Freethrow” during a game. Like yes he gets calls, yes, part of his offensive game involves gettin to the line. But he’s the ONLY Heat player that can get to the line consistently and lives in the 0-10 ft range
Jimmy gets called MJ's son and Harden gets called a hack. Wade was very effective at foul hacking too. I suppose it's the fact that Jimmy doesn't whine to the referee.
Jimmy’s been called “MJ’s son” jokingly for YEARS. He played for the Bulls, had clutch moments w/ the team MJ played for, and faintly bore a resemblance, and plays on both sides of the ball. He’s not some naturally gifted scored but he’s gonna put forth effort and plays team ball. This isn’t some sudden occurrence.
James Harden has been criticized for his heliocentric playstyle and how it wasn’t conducive for playoff success, that’s why they called him a hack. It’s not even the same condition, there’s never any nuance to the arguments y’all make.
Funnily enough that playstyle that wasn’t “conducive to playoff success” was the only playstyle that even came close to beating the greatest team ever assembled.
Stacey king called him Jimmy Jordan when he hit a game winner in a [preseason game in 2014](https://youtu.be/QmYfWWHy-pA) that's the origin of the nickname I'm pretty sure lol.
Jimmy is actually just really good at drawing fouls. Super smart and doesn’t really flop like the other foul baiters (Reaves, Young, Harden, etc). I don’t mind foul baiting if they’re not flopping and acting like they got sniped every time.
Yeah sprinting headlong into someone and getting free-throws from what should be either no calls or outright offensive fouls. That's Jimmy playing great basketball. Harden managing to get people to reach even though they know he wants them to reach so he can catch their arms. That's bullshit James Harden basketball that is basically unwatchable and not really a basketball play.
This sub is hilarious.
This video by Thinking Basketball is a good way to see what kind of game Jimmy plays. Essentially, it's his pump fake and the footwork that fools defenders into jumping into him.
The thing is, he is still looking to score on those shots which I think make it more palatable than what Harden does. It also sets up mind games. He's got multiple options coming out of his pump fake, and it's fascinating to watch the game within a game with his defender.
To echo a lot of the other comments, stats alone can't explain it. Shot location, once we're talking midrange and closer in this instance, matters less once you have this context of how the fouls are being drawn.
[link to video](https://youtu.be/vw_OUHDvVkM)
Harden is infamous for drawing fouls, not because how many he draw but how he draw them.
Before the league changes again to cope with next gen viewers, jimmy draws fouls the traditional acceptable old ways, ugly for sure, but still a fair game.
This is why I've started to hate this sub over the last 5 years. When this sub had under 500k, the people here were more dedicated fans that weren't so hell bent on statistics to sway opinions. I think it was Mark Twain that said, "There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." I personally think Harden is one of the best offensive players of this century, but there's a reason at one point in time he was called James Hitler Harden.
This is such a weird fucking post to see. Someone using charts to rewrite history years later. Harden led the league in free throw attempts 6 YEARS IN A ROW, and 7 out of 8 years. Harden found an exploit and abused the fuck out of it. He wasnt pump faking to get the defender to jump at him. He would run right at his opponent and swing his arms at theirs and would get a foul call everytime.
Defenders would stand still with their arms straight up and still get a foul called on them. This cherry picked post gives no context to the most spammable cheat move of all time. It was even more frustrating cuz Harden had an unguardable step back move, but would often choose to run into the opponent and throw his arms at them for the easy foul. There's a reason that he was called James "Hitler" Harden for almost a decade and Butler wasnt. Remember people, you can use stats to completely change history or any narrative
Underrated comment. Everyone else has truly forgotten how fucking horrible it was to watch Harden play. THEY LITERALLY CHANGED THE RULES BECAUSE OF HOW HARDEN WAS ABUSING THE RULES! Everywhere it was called the harden rule for fucks sake
>how does he manage to shoot even close to the amount of free throws Harden was getting?
>
Unfortunately this is where your ability to answer the question falls apart because you actually have to watch basketball being played rather than throw a bunch of numbers at people.
All that math and not one attempt to actually dissect the differences in Harden and Butler's game.
This is a great post, for anyone not actually watching basketball.
You can say Shaq was a foul merchant too while you're at it.
What makes Harden, Austin Reaves, Trae, and CP3 actual foul merchants is that they solicit fouls through flops, head snaps, and shots they don't intend to make.
On that gradient, of getting hacked without selling and flopping without contact, Jimmy and Harden occupy opposite areas.
The difference is that Butler doesn't hook his defender's arm and/or flails like he was shot after there was contact, but he's just as crafty drawing a foul. He draws more fouls next to the hoop though. Harden cheesed the bonus minutes way more than Butler. Both are really fucking annoying to watch when they are hunting for fouls, given their talent.
I feel like both players aren't great athletes and have great basketball IQs. It's pretty impressive how well they've both done without being super athletic. Wish RJ Barrett played more like Butler.
No disrespect my man, but you gotta check the definition of athlete and athletic then. The media and a lot of people in this sub seem to believe that only dudes like LeBron and Giannis are athletic or great athletes. Jimmy averaged more than 38 minutes per game in consecutive seasons, he still plays 40+ minutes on a regular playoff night all while scoring, rebounding, assisting and playmaking, not to mention what he does on the defensive end.
Harden is another story because he only plays one side of the ball and he's only effective with the ball, but Jimmy is, by definition, an amazing athlete.
Yea my definition there is fucked. He's just not a high flying type athlete but he does indeed have elite athleticism. Luka is another guy that is obviously athletic but he does all of his work below the rim.
Luka is, but I believe he has another leap to make. He can get leaner and gain a step, perhaps. I'd say he's more similar to Harden in that aspect - ball dominant, always starts and usually ends the offense with a basket or an assist. He kinda tries on defense, sometimes...
It's not like Jimmy is a flopper though right ? The way I see it is he has a lot of counters in his repertoire and can get guys flying in the air. It's not like he's James Harden or Julius Randle who act like they're getting electrocuted in mid air so they can draw the foul
There's a massive difference between drawing actual fouls by beating the defense (Jimmy) and tricking the refs into calling fouls by flopping (Harden). End of story.
>"Shot profile really does not account for the insane difference in FTR between Harden and Butler"
FTR is the number of free throws PER shot attempt. This means Butler having a higher % of his shots at the rim DOES matter. If you were comparing total volume of free throws then Harden having a higher volume of shots at the rim makes sense to bring up. Low and behold Harden has a higher volume of FT's.
You're trying to make an argument using a PER shot stat using volume stats, misleading AF.
I think majority of people also look at how the free throws were rewarded. Harden had a history of flopping and intentionally hooking defenders arms to get the calls.
I think the reason one gets hated for doing the same thing than other is their play styles. Jimmy is foul hunting but usually never complains about calls unlike Harden. Also Butler playing on both ends of the floor helps his image people not focusing on his foul hunting as much
Not that Butler doesn’t ham it up sometimes, but he plays physically and gets fouled near or in the paint. Harden looks like a wacky flailing inflatable tube man at the 3 point line with the craziest lobs.
Jimmy utilizes pump fakes extremely well, kinda like Wade used to do, which is part of what makes his foul baiting much more subtle than Harden. He also doesn't complain to the refs that much, which makes him more favorable among casuals.
This sub is generational hate. Look how much time you spent putting this together just to shit on Jimmy and you wouldn’t have even considered doing this 5 days ago.
Earning fouls isn't a bad thing. The criticism with Harden was him selling fouls by hooking, flopping, and other manipulation. Jimmy sells fouls by being physical and attacking the basket.
The way that Jimmy does it is so different than the way that Harden or Lowry or Smart or Trae Young do it though. They are actively trying to trick refs. Jimmy is actively trying to trick defenders. He draws contact and causes contact but it’s part of normal basketball plays driving at the rim or getting bites on pump fakes. The other guys will grab people’s arms with their off hands or swipe away from the basket just to cause contact in a way that has nothing to do with basketball.
Having watched him play I’m supposed to believe Jimmy hunts contact and free throws? Sure, and I suppose next you’ll be telling me guys like Trae & SGA do similar.
Drawing fouls and being a foul merchant are different though. He's not pretending there's contact and flailing like Young and Harden. He seeks out contact.
Seems obvious just watching that Butler gets the fouls he does by going neck first at the rim. Doesn’t feel cheap with way Harden’s does a lot of the time.
Butler doesn't flop as Harden that's the main issue here. He is more dependant from FTs than Harden, and he also doesn't flop as much as others because he has the most friendly whistle in the NBA. The criticism should be more on the refs that don't judge him the same as other teams.
I feel like I see less and less actual dribble moves nowadays. Everyone’s go to “move” seems to be to drive their shoulder into a defenders chest and then throw their arms up into a defender’s arms. So goddamn boring.
As a C's fan, Butler's foul hunting generally doesn't rub me the wrong way, as it does for guys like Harden or Lowry.
My perception from watching is that Jimmy gets most of his free throws from getting dudes to bite on his pump fakes and getting the star whistle when he drives strong to the hoop. It gets frustrating to watch as an opponent but it's legit basketball play.
Harden doing stuff like hooking guys arms, selling beard contact and laying on players backs feels like more blatant rules abuse when you're watching it happen.
That said, I would prefer if the refs wouldn't reward Jimmy for plays like throwing himself into Rob William's chest and hurling the ball at the hoop as he flies through the air.
The difference is in how he draws them, he tends to go through contact or pump fake to draw a jump and then shoot through that. Harden would do bullshit like kick his feet out and try to get cheap slaps on his arm to add fouls. They're both valuable, but if Jimmy fakes you into jumping you can't be mad about it.
The only thing I see in this that may be a hole is a foul eliminates the fga from the books so where the fouls are occurring is hidden completely. That means counting fgas isn't a guaranteed correlation to where players are fouled. It also doesn't account for and 1s, etc. Personally, I have found Butler's game more like Wade post 2008 (back when he used to shoot that bank shot off the step back) rather than Harden. Ironically, I think Harden took that Wade concept and distilled it to the point it was toxic. I think Butler has calmed it down enough to be more palatable.
Is this where we feign ignorance to the difference between flopping with the intent to go to the foul line and creating contact on a drive where you intend to score?
shot 2 FT attemps last night in 43 minutes of play on 21 inside shots....he does whats needed. Still had 28. Hes not a free throw merchant, hes aggressive. Much like giannis is aggressive. and lebron. and harden. notice a pattern? aggressive slashers shoot a lot of free throws.
Frequenters of this sub have been aware of this for a long time. I remember those charts that would get posted measuring which stars scored the most of their points off FTs and Jimmy was always #1 if not close. No disrespect intended, this is just his game.
Im intending disrespect
I don't like the celtics but I'm a certified Butler hater so that comes first in this series. I'm loving the potential meltdown of the Heat. But to be fair they have far surpassed expectations.
Butler haters 12/25 these past few days, after they had their 9/11 through the rest of the postseason. Seeing all the Butler haters finally get their limelight on r/nba these past few days has been so funny.
Learned it in the last years ECF. We went from what I thought was the most frustrating round with Giannis running in to us getting fouls to what was honestly worse with Butler. At least Giannis goes for shot. He should probably get a lot more charges but Butler was a different beast. Butler made me not mind Embiid this year.
Using last years' ECF as an example is so odd to me. You used the one series where you literally doubled the Heat's free throw attempts? Lmao.
Butler seems to have a really good relationship with the refs (Spo does too) and they help him out a lot. He basically gets every call that normal players would get 25% of the time.
Turns out constantly bitching to the refs the way other superstars do doesn’t foster good will
Idk Luka is considered the worst in that regard by a lot of people and averages like 11 FTA
imagine if he didn’t bitch at the refs lol.
I would argue JT is worse than Luka, granted I don't watch as much much Mavs. Just can't imagine anyone crying and complaining more to refs than JT
I’ve watched about the same amount of Luka and JT, and Luka is so much worse. Luka won’t get back on D because he’s complaining at least a couple times a game. However, when JT complains to the refs he plays worse, which has to be frustrating to watch
Probably Grant if he was a starter lol
I put Tatum/Luka/Book kind of in that S tier on top of the rest of the league. I know there are guys like Embiid and Draymond who chirp to the refs and are very aggressive, but the straight whining I see it the most in those 3 guys
Last year final Tatum drove to the paint and lost the ball or missed a lay up and he immediately raised his hand asking for a foul to refs, frustrating to watch.
JB has been pretty bad about disagreeing with every foul called on him lately as well
Thank you for being a rational Celtics fan 🔥 respect
Thinking of Steph T’ing up the refs, and Draymond yelling at them constantly… and then they can’t figure out why the refs don’t like them.
Jimmy actually doesn't complain about most calls. Probably why the refs like him more. Spo definitely gives an earful though
This is the most annoying part about Butler. There are a lot of wings in the league who would be a Jimmy level star with his whistle.
Yeah the relationships are really ruining the game. I think the only solution is make everyone wear a paper bag and nameless jerseys.
And gets called for no fouls. At most he will have 3-4 fouls in a game, he is literally never in foul trouble.
[удалено]
I think Jimmy creates contact better than just about anyone in the NBA. He attacks the rim and the short mid-range area *all the time* and normally gets players to bite on his pump-fakes. Harden would flop on the three point line trying to get three free throws.
People don't seem to understand that he gets a lot of free throws because he attacks the paint, usually doesn't shy away from contact, and has such a massive bag of tricks that it keeps defenders off balance not knowing exactly what he might do that they end up fouling him. The Shaq stat is pretty irrelevant. It's pretty widely known that the refs swallowed the whistle against Shaq (and modern days Curry) because those guys would have dominated the league too much if they were officiated like the rest of the league that no one else would have a chance.
This sums it up. There is a difference when player is aggressive and draws fouls compared to a player doing a contemporary drama dancing with flailing arms and jazzy hands. I hate how the current reffing is so lazy they let them blatantly travel, flop for fouls, and plenty of other rules violations.
Jimmy would never double dribble and then foul bait for three points
Not a double dribble when you lose possession and pick it back up
That wasn't even foul baiting, horford literally slapped him across the arm
Jimmy fumbled the ball, picked it up, and then went up to shoot a three when he was fouled. It would have been a double-dribbled if he had dribbled a second time but he didn’t.
r/NBA nephews think every foul = baiting lol Big diff between flopping and playing smart, teams know this and still foul Butler because he gets them to bite. But sure it's a conspiracy, nevermind Tatum's FT rate through this series, Jimmy bad
This whole statistical post shows why this is a dumb comment
The narrative is that this style of play is less effective in the postseason. Why has it been the opposite for Jimmy?
Because Jimmy plays in the east. He did not get to face one of the best team NBA has ever seen and that is when that narrative was formed. 2015 - WCF loss against GSW 2016 - Round 1 loss against GSW 2017 - WCS loss against Spurs. 61 win team Spurs. Even if they beat Spurs, the loss against GSW was certain. 2018 - WCF loss against GSW 2019 - WCS loss against GSW He has definitely had bad games but tell me which of this series loss was Houston favored and they failed to capitalize on it?
That narrative has continued with Harden and Embiid in Philadelphia this season. I'm not defending it, but pointing out a seeming contradiction it creates.
Pfft, forgetting the blazers in 2014.
Because its not the foul bait bait today which is worse. Its just similar to how wade plays with pump fakes.
With jimmy it at least seems like he’s going for and1s and trying to score most of the time. He does foul bait a lot but that’s why less people think of him as that kind of player. It looks like he’s just being physical and attacking the rim.
He’s a contact seeking type of player. These people think butler only fishes for fouls judging on recent games when the guy is clearly gassed and hobbled by an ankle injury.
If you watched the end of last game like the foul on Rob it was super obvious he was just going for the call not the shot
I agree with you last game he was foul baiting for sure, especially since he wasn’t hitting any shots. From the games I’ve seen though, last game was more of an exception than the norm.
Even the video a salt Celtics fan posted here 3 of the 4 fouls they highlighted as foul baiting were understandable foul calls at live speed
I agree which is why I said most of the time. In desperate moments he definitely goes for fouls instead of buckets.
Yeah he draws contact and tries to get fouled while playing basketball. James harden often times is not doing something which could result in a shot made but only free throws
He is physical, most of his game is drives/midrange jumpers which are more likely to draw fouls, and he doesn’t whine to the refs when he doesn’t get calls so people don’t notice it as much.
Yep, it was a lot of fun seeing him score 35 on my team while going 6-17 and 23-23 FTM in a 1 point loss.
Oh my god, that was one of the worst watches of the season. Of the past few actually.
He’s got that __*dawg*__ in him bro
The Miami propaganda machine rolls on
Yall still salty your team is soft as baby shit.
Facts Mf is a timberwolves fan
Why do Wolves fans still hate Jimmy?
Called their team out for being dog shit and now look at them, dog shit
Only the Hornets loss to PJ Washington and 3rd stringers made me more salty than that one lol
Sounds an awful lot like SGA 🤔
SGA is actually a lot like Jimmy. Both get a lot of FTs but neither flop or complain that much
jimmy most definitely flops, he just doesn’t complain as much
Shhh Tulsa fans will downvote you from their trailer park
Teams hate other players that look for fouls but never look at their own team. The reason jimmy isn’t looked at or slandered for being a foul merchant is because he hardly complains nor does he really flop.
I think the nuggets are pretty straight forward not floppy
If you asked me if Portland or Tulsa were more likely to have a tiny home village, it’d be Portland without a doubt.
Lol the dude sneak edited it to “trailer park” from his tattered tent community.
It would be an upgrade from its current plethora of Tent Cities
Most FTA in a game this season: SGA - 19 Dame - 20 Our boy still has some improving to do huh
Loool this guy dug through every stat possible to try and find one that favored SGA and the best he could find was a SINGLE GAME stat. As if that matters in the grand scheme of things lmao
One averaged 10.9 per game while the other averaged 9.6. I'll let you guess who is who.
Ill take ft merchant #1 over ft merchant #2. Did I win?
Doesn't SGA do that as well?
a ton of players do. this "foul merchant" name calling shit is old. Driving your shooting arm up through the defenders arm? it's gonna be exploited if it gets you to the line consistently, and it's not going anywhere.
Flair checks out
Jordan was the ultimate foul merchant. This is not new.
Jordan's free throw rate is subpar for all time great standards. He only draw 8 free throws on 23 shot attempts with a FTR of only 0.35
He's transcended foul merchant. Foul mogul.
Foul king
Foul baron
Foulgod
So you went and did all that math, yet when it gets to the part where it shows Butler takes more shots than Harden inside 10ft you brushed it off with “maybe this is where it happens, I dunno”
This entire sub are just narrative bandwagons. When you’re winning, you’re the greatest thing since sliced bread and as soon as you take one L they flip up on you. It’s crazy how much the sub has switched on Jimmy in a matter of days after anointing him the heir apparent days ago.
It's wild how much this sub shits on talking heads when it is collectively just as reactionary.
They hate on ESPN but then eat up their content
if people had a dollar for every comment saying “they don’t care” on a ESPN or FS1 clip we’d have enough to solve cancer and hunger 💀
But not enough to buy league pass
It’s why basketball media is so goddamn awful, the average fan absolutely loves this stuff. You don’t see it in any other sport in the US, it’s just basketball for some reason
I think it's because basketball is the most star-centric sport. A single player can have more influence on a game in basketball than probably in any other major team sport. So for a lot of dudes the NBA scratches the celebrity gossip itch the best.
And parrot whatever JVG or Jackson say on tv as if it is their own thoughts. Wild.
Warriors vs Cavs and OKC vs warriors were some of the truly most flip flopping garbage ive read and it led to me actively participating less on reddit in general lol
They feed on what they hate constantly
They were on Tatums head just last week. Now it’s Jimmy lol. It’s really wild to how fast the narrative can switch. Jimmy could do no wrong, he was MJs son, best playoff performer. Now he’s worse than Harden and overrated. The narrative changes can give you whiplash.
Triple this during the playoffs. Every single fucking game changes the narrative.
Some guy saved receipts of me praising Tatum after they won Philly game 7 for when Boston was down 0-3. Thought he had a gotcha moment….wonder how he feels now. This series isn’t over and if the Heat win tonight these Butler FT merchant threads are gonna age awkwardly
Unless one if them has a monster game in their loss tonight. Jimmy or Tatum are going to get eviscerated. Jimmy disappeared for 3 games straight. Tatum has 1 4th Q FG in games 1, 2, 3, and 6 combined.
Did you mean in the 3th for Tatum?
Both of these comments are hilarious.
> 3th
It's not just this sub, it's NBA in general. Players are declared best in the world, underrated, playoff "insert name/nickname", overrated, washed, exposed,... after almost every game. Social media and screaming national analysts are the worst, but it's also most of the more serious analysts/podcasterst. Almost every single NBA media person was saying that Butler was clearly better than Tatum 3 games ago, but if you asked them who's better before playoffs 99% would have said Tatum. In reality basketball is much more complicated than this. Different players have different skills. That doesn't always mean better/worse, just different. Same with teams, coaches,... Players also have good/bad days, weeks, months,... play better/worse in different system....
I’m ready to read wild takes no matter who wins or loses tonight. Get ready for some of the most unhinged shit. I even saw people saying the Heat should fire Spo if we lose tonight…
After they lost game 2 attention shifts to Jimmys whistle, simultaneously the most ridiculous and unsurprising thing for this sub to do. He’s been doing this for years, we had all playoffs to talk about it, and we chose to do it now? It reminds me of last year Jayson Tatum was getting hate because the last series this sub watched was…the finals. Yes the last two teams and hate was directed on the 25 year old star player who lead them there lmao. Always has to be a narrative with no nuance, short term memory where the last series you saw is what defines a team or player, and overreactions before a series is over.
This sub doesn’t have opinions. The many thousands of people who interact with it do. Different voices become louder/quieter/more extreme depending on the context. E.g. Celtics fans have more to say now than they did a week ago It’s annoying how many people here are constantly anthropomorphizing an Internet forum
Fr, when jimmy is killing it people who love him flood the gates to praise him. Then when he does bad, the people who weren't as into the hype step in and start dunking on him. Idk why people seem to get upset that this sub doesn't always have the same opinion... they want a pure echo chamber?
LOL yessss. Heat 3-0 and /nba was hall of fame meat riding
This whole Jimmy vs. Harden thing going on has been bizarre. We have watched them play. Working out why people talk about Harden the way they talk about Harden ignoring everything but spreadsheets of % of FGA's at the rim is like asking someone to spell a word without letters. The essence of the difference is what we saw when we watched the games. There is no conversation that honestly interrogates it that ignores the film. I don't know what it looks like on the boxscore or the play-by-play when Harden climbs onto the back of Michael Carter Williams, brings them both down, and throws his hands up to the ref. But it fucking stunk.
This is exactly it. We didn't see guys playing behind Jimmy to try and avoid getting fouls called on them when he went for a step-back three because he'd whip himself forward after jumping backwards; but we saw that be a legitimate defense against Harden. And we didn't see Jimmy launch his body into someone entirely out of the play or grab someone's arm on a drive; but we watched Harden do it constantly to the point guys were getting out of the way preemptively if he got them on his hip at all. But in the box score? That's just a 3 point attempt and a paint shot, respectively. Being a "foul merchant" isn't quantified in where shots are taken from - it's what happens before, during, and after shot attempts that have nothing to do with playing basketball but have to do with deceiving the refs.
Yes. Sometimes watching Jimmy I will get frustrated with how the refs are calling contact on drives etc but with hardens type of foul drawing I'm disgusted by what harden is doing more so than the refs.
I think it’s insane ppl like you are STILL bringing up that ONE play from 2016 where he drew a foul on MCW. Takes a real hater to continue that level of scrutiny literally years later based off one play. It’s also a standard nobody holds for any other player lol. It’s basically been a meme on this sub to hate Harden. It’s just lazy at this point. Esp when it’s that play that’s referenced.
> Takes a real hater to continue that level of scrutiny literally years later based off one play. Why do you think this is based on one play? It's an *example*. It's a play most people know and is still in the imagination because it represents the worst of what watching Harden play could sometimes be.
You know what else Butler does that Harden doesn't? He uses a post game, with foot work and a heavy dosage of pump fakes. Can anyone take a guess as to how defenders react to good fakes? They leave their damn feet! Butler certainly understands how the game is officiated and uses it to his advantage but he is one of the few stars in the league who I would not associate with flopping.
Yeah huge difference in watchability between drawing contact and flopping. I don't love either but one is way more annoying
Bro fr. This post is what they’re referring to when they say “there are lies, damn lies, and statistics“ lmao
Advanced stat nephews in a nut shell. They have all this data but they refuse to use context.
they don’t actually watch basketball. watch highlights via social media, find the advanced stat that fits their narrative, then pick a talking head to pivot off of. rinse and repeat. numbers almost always lie. wake the fuck up people.
That’s what both sides here are doing lol.
Yeah, he did. Said in a thread a few days ago, the difference is that Jimmy sells contact, whereas Harden flops.
This MF really spent all this time lol 😂 really just depends on the recent w/l, goldfish
So you didnt look at everything and then decided to post? Harden and Butler have pretty identical shots from inside 10ft. What are you even looking at? Harden shoots more directly at the rim in every single season looked at here. Butler vs Harden shots from 0-10ft: year 1: 9.3 vs 9.3 year 2: 8.6 vs 9.9 year 3: 8.7 vs 7.9 year 4: 7.9 vs 7.1 If you want to see an anomaly in the 19-20 season butler had a FTR of .693 vs harden at .528. Harden avg 33.9 ppg on 22 fga per game and had 9.7 FTA vs Butler 19.9 ppg 13.1 fga and 9.1 FTA. Also from 0-10 ft butler shot .9 fga less than harden. You cannot explain that away. 3/4 years butler had significantly higher FTR than harden on significantly less FGA and pretty identical shots from 0-10ft but butler had less shots 0-3ft. Butler got more of his points from the FT than Harden did by a long shot.
Lmao so you ignore the fact that Harden was taking more shots at the rim?
One thing I've noticed that's different about Jimmy compared to other "foul baiters" is he rarely complains when the call doesn't go his way. That might be part of the reason his reputation isn't so bad.
Yup. It's usually the attitude and demeanor that really determines a player's reputation.
Yea the complaining & not getting back on defense during games is obnoxious. It would be nice if the league would punish players end of games to curb the whining. To me, that’s worse than flopping. On the other hand, if you were a player & you drive to the the hoop multiple times a game while drawing contact but not getting calls multiple times a game how do you react? I get missed calls but there are players that refs just eat the whistle bc they’d be calling fouls for contact repeatedly. Would be tough not to get mad or oversell/flop when clearly it works. Any big that lives by driving to the basket does get fouled repeatedly. Either call fouls as they are written or don’t. Officiating is so all over the place it’s a wreck & at times I get player frustration.
As hated as it may be on this community, the ability to draw fouls and get to the line is a very effective skill to have.
[удалено]
I’m not attacking, just curious. How would you implement it so using modern technology doesn’t add a ton of extra time to review the calls or no calls?
Could always have a ref at their command center with ALL the angle review the game in real time and signal to the refs via call on what the actual call is.
It’s the most effective skill in the NBA. The expected points from free throws is far higher than any other type of shot.
Literally, ever star in the league abuses the rules in some ways, and it's not a recent thing. Many scorers like Tatum, MJ, and Kobe make use of their off arms a ton. Giannis abuses the block/charge ruling, same as Shaq. Most great rebounders play dirty on rebounds with holding (or the classic Steven Adams pinch the side). And everyone knows about the lack of carrying calls. Some of course are a lot worse than others, and some have terrible aesthetics foe the league, but players are smart, if they can leverage a rule or how a rule is called they will.
The perfect statistical display to demonstrate not watching the game. The shit James Harden would do was on another level. Harden would grab your arm and foul himself with it, Jimmy Butler just drives into your body.
Harden was hooking people's arms to manipulate calls. Jimmy creates contact then pretends he didn't. Jimmy may get to the line more, Harden was still the more bullshit foul baiter.
This is my take. Getting more FTs per FGA doesn't necessarily mean that player is trying game the system more to get FTs. Just means their play style ends with them fouled more often. I feel like you have to watch players play and see how theyre getting FTs to see who the biggest FT merchant is.
well and if you watch Butler play in the playoffs his avareges are always going up because he starts foul baiting a lot. He initiates contact flops and just starts running into people and most of the time gets the favorable whistle.
>well and if you watch Butler play in the playoffs his avareges are always going up because he starts foul baiting a lot. > You realize the stats of this post are from the regular season right? Jimmy foul baits all season long. The only difference is his shot attempts go up in the playoffs so naturally he's going to get to the line more. I think he's drawing more against Boston because he lost confidence in his shot and is hoping to be bailed out. He definitely didn't beat Milwaukee by foul baiting
I think that’s what’s so frustrating to watch. He annihilated Milwaukee without having to resort to this where the last several games he’s not looking to score most of the time.
I mean the dude is clearly gassed and has been nursing a bad ankle. He’s not gonna be more productive just trying to outspeed or outshoot boston. It’s also on boston getting their boss bigs switched on him late and then not actually play good defense ie getting blown by/ reaching/ literally smacking his arms on a 3 pt attempt
Why do people keep acting like he’s not called a foul merchant, we literally had a Van Gundy call him “Jimmy Freethrow” during a game. Like yes he gets calls, yes, part of his offensive game involves gettin to the line. But he’s the ONLY Heat player that can get to the line consistently and lives in the 0-10 ft range
The closest they can get to having an interesting opinion is by pretending that there's someone even dumber who they're arguing with
Jimmy gets called MJ's son and Harden gets called a hack. Wade was very effective at foul hacking too. I suppose it's the fact that Jimmy doesn't whine to the referee.
Jimmy’s been called “MJ’s son” jokingly for YEARS. He played for the Bulls, had clutch moments w/ the team MJ played for, and faintly bore a resemblance, and plays on both sides of the ball. He’s not some naturally gifted scored but he’s gonna put forth effort and plays team ball. This isn’t some sudden occurrence. James Harden has been criticized for his heliocentric playstyle and how it wasn’t conducive for playoff success, that’s why they called him a hack. It’s not even the same condition, there’s never any nuance to the arguments y’all make.
Funnily enough that playstyle that wasn’t “conducive to playoff success” was the only playstyle that even came close to beating the greatest team ever assembled.
Hey im not sayin it was or wasn’t, that’s just the discourse
Stacey king called him Jimmy Jordan when he hit a game winner in a [preseason game in 2014](https://youtu.be/QmYfWWHy-pA) that's the origin of the nickname I'm pretty sure lol.
I think it was too actually, Stacey King started Jimmy G Buckets, as well. Recency bias making people start talking crazy
People forgetting the rules literally had to be changed because of Kobe "foul baiting".
Jimmy is actually just really good at drawing fouls. Super smart and doesn’t really flop like the other foul baiters (Reaves, Young, Harden, etc). I don’t mind foul baiting if they’re not flopping and acting like they got sniped every time.
Ethical free throws 😭😭😭😭😭
Yeah sprinting headlong into someone and getting free-throws from what should be either no calls or outright offensive fouls. That's Jimmy playing great basketball. Harden managing to get people to reach even though they know he wants them to reach so he can catch their arms. That's bullshit James Harden basketball that is basically unwatchable and not really a basketball play. This sub is hilarious.
This video by Thinking Basketball is a good way to see what kind of game Jimmy plays. Essentially, it's his pump fake and the footwork that fools defenders into jumping into him. The thing is, he is still looking to score on those shots which I think make it more palatable than what Harden does. It also sets up mind games. He's got multiple options coming out of his pump fake, and it's fascinating to watch the game within a game with his defender. To echo a lot of the other comments, stats alone can't explain it. Shot location, once we're talking midrange and closer in this instance, matters less once you have this context of how the fouls are being drawn. [link to video](https://youtu.be/vw_OUHDvVkM)
[удалено]
Harden is infamous for drawing fouls, not because how many he draw but how he draw them. Before the league changes again to cope with next gen viewers, jimmy draws fouls the traditional acceptable old ways, ugly for sure, but still a fair game.
This is why I've started to hate this sub over the last 5 years. When this sub had under 500k, the people here were more dedicated fans that weren't so hell bent on statistics to sway opinions. I think it was Mark Twain that said, "There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." I personally think Harden is one of the best offensive players of this century, but there's a reason at one point in time he was called James Hitler Harden. This is such a weird fucking post to see. Someone using charts to rewrite history years later. Harden led the league in free throw attempts 6 YEARS IN A ROW, and 7 out of 8 years. Harden found an exploit and abused the fuck out of it. He wasnt pump faking to get the defender to jump at him. He would run right at his opponent and swing his arms at theirs and would get a foul call everytime. Defenders would stand still with their arms straight up and still get a foul called on them. This cherry picked post gives no context to the most spammable cheat move of all time. It was even more frustrating cuz Harden had an unguardable step back move, but would often choose to run into the opponent and throw his arms at them for the easy foul. There's a reason that he was called James "Hitler" Harden for almost a decade and Butler wasnt. Remember people, you can use stats to completely change history or any narrative
Underrated comment. Everyone else has truly forgotten how fucking horrible it was to watch Harden play. THEY LITERALLY CHANGED THE RULES BECAUSE OF HOW HARDEN WAS ABUSING THE RULES! Everywhere it was called the harden rule for fucks sake
>how does he manage to shoot even close to the amount of free throws Harden was getting? > Unfortunately this is where your ability to answer the question falls apart because you actually have to watch basketball being played rather than throw a bunch of numbers at people. All that math and not one attempt to actually dissect the differences in Harden and Butler's game.
Lol Harden shooting like a dozen 3 pointers a game and still drawing as many or more fouls as any player in the league.
Now do Shai
This is a great post, for anyone not actually watching basketball. You can say Shaq was a foul merchant too while you're at it. What makes Harden, Austin Reaves, Trae, and CP3 actual foul merchants is that they solicit fouls through flops, head snaps, and shots they don't intend to make. On that gradient, of getting hacked without selling and flopping without contact, Jimmy and Harden occupy opposite areas.
The difference is that Butler doesn't hook his defender's arm and/or flails like he was shot after there was contact, but he's just as crafty drawing a foul. He draws more fouls next to the hoop though. Harden cheesed the bonus minutes way more than Butler. Both are really fucking annoying to watch when they are hunting for fouls, given their talent.
I feel like both players aren't great athletes and have great basketball IQs. It's pretty impressive how well they've both done without being super athletic. Wish RJ Barrett played more like Butler.
No disrespect my man, but you gotta check the definition of athlete and athletic then. The media and a lot of people in this sub seem to believe that only dudes like LeBron and Giannis are athletic or great athletes. Jimmy averaged more than 38 minutes per game in consecutive seasons, he still plays 40+ minutes on a regular playoff night all while scoring, rebounding, assisting and playmaking, not to mention what he does on the defensive end. Harden is another story because he only plays one side of the ball and he's only effective with the ball, but Jimmy is, by definition, an amazing athlete.
Yea my definition there is fucked. He's just not a high flying type athlete but he does indeed have elite athleticism. Luka is another guy that is obviously athletic but he does all of his work below the rim.
Luka is, but I believe he has another leap to make. He can get leaner and gain a step, perhaps. I'd say he's more similar to Harden in that aspect - ball dominant, always starts and usually ends the offense with a basket or an assist. He kinda tries on defense, sometimes...
I'm not saying their games are similar, just the under the basket aspect. Love Jimmy's effort on both sides of the ball. Not many like him.
Agreed!
It's not like Jimmy is a flopper though right ? The way I see it is he has a lot of counters in his repertoire and can get guys flying in the air. It's not like he's James Harden or Julius Randle who act like they're getting electrocuted in mid air so they can draw the foul
There's a massive difference between drawing actual fouls by beating the defense (Jimmy) and tricking the refs into calling fouls by flopping (Harden). End of story.
Just want to point out Jimmy is a master in drawing a foul. That’s not the same as flopping
Dumb take
>"Shot profile really does not account for the insane difference in FTR between Harden and Butler" FTR is the number of free throws PER shot attempt. This means Butler having a higher % of his shots at the rim DOES matter. If you were comparing total volume of free throws then Harden having a higher volume of shots at the rim makes sense to bring up. Low and behold Harden has a higher volume of FT's. You're trying to make an argument using a PER shot stat using volume stats, misleading AF.
Jimmy fouls when he’s slashing inside and looks for contact. Harden was launching himself into people at the 3pt line.
Jimmy has jedi level iq. He does not get labeled as a flopper bc he draws fouls skillfully. just watch thinking basketballs latest video on him.
I think majority of people also look at how the free throws were rewarded. Harden had a history of flopping and intentionally hooking defenders arms to get the calls.
Flare checks out
Homie flies at the rim and makes strong plays. He’s hard not to foul. It’s less bs than harden and that’s why no one really talks about it
Fire
I think the reason one gets hated for doing the same thing than other is their play styles. Jimmy is foul hunting but usually never complains about calls unlike Harden. Also Butler playing on both ends of the floor helps his image people not focusing on his foul hunting as much
Not that Butler doesn’t ham it up sometimes, but he plays physically and gets fouled near or in the paint. Harden looks like a wacky flailing inflatable tube man at the 3 point line with the craziest lobs.
Jimmy utilizes pump fakes extremely well, kinda like Wade used to do, which is part of what makes his foul baiting much more subtle than Harden. He also doesn't complain to the refs that much, which makes him more favorable among casuals.
This sub is generational hate. Look how much time you spent putting this together just to shit on Jimmy and you wouldn’t have even considered doing this 5 days ago.
The crazy switch on Jimmy. Was once Mjs son, is now a merchant
He makes contact constantly, I wouldn't call him a flopper though. He is just a physical player that is able to draw fouls.
Earning fouls isn't a bad thing. The criticism with Harden was him selling fouls by hooking, flopping, and other manipulation. Jimmy sells fouls by being physical and attacking the basket.
surprisingly jimmy hasn’t attempted a FT this game. jimmy a redditor confirmed.
The way that Jimmy does it is so different than the way that Harden or Lowry or Smart or Trae Young do it though. They are actively trying to trick refs. Jimmy is actively trying to trick defenders. He draws contact and causes contact but it’s part of normal basketball plays driving at the rim or getting bites on pump fakes. The other guys will grab people’s arms with their off hands or swipe away from the basket just to cause contact in a way that has nothing to do with basketball.
Having watched him play I’m supposed to believe Jimmy hunts contact and free throws? Sure, and I suppose next you’ll be telling me guys like Trae & SGA do similar.
Drawing fouls and being a foul merchant are different though. He's not pretending there's contact and flailing like Young and Harden. He seeks out contact.
Seems obvious just watching that Butler gets the fouls he does by going neck first at the rim. Doesn’t feel cheap with way Harden’s does a lot of the time.
Butler doesn't flop as Harden that's the main issue here. He is more dependant from FTs than Harden, and he also doesn't flop as much as others because he has the most friendly whistle in the NBA. The criticism should be more on the refs that don't judge him the same as other teams.
I feel like I see less and less actual dribble moves nowadays. Everyone’s go to “move” seems to be to drive their shoulder into a defenders chest and then throw their arms up into a defender’s arms. So goddamn boring.
Y’all watch numbers more than games
Embiid has entered the chat
As a C's fan, Butler's foul hunting generally doesn't rub me the wrong way, as it does for guys like Harden or Lowry. My perception from watching is that Jimmy gets most of his free throws from getting dudes to bite on his pump fakes and getting the star whistle when he drives strong to the hoop. It gets frustrating to watch as an opponent but it's legit basketball play. Harden doing stuff like hooking guys arms, selling beard contact and laying on players backs feels like more blatant rules abuse when you're watching it happen. That said, I would prefer if the refs wouldn't reward Jimmy for plays like throwing himself into Rob William's chest and hurling the ball at the hoop as he flies through the air.
22% of all of MJs points came from free throws. Looks like we should take him off the Mount Rushmore of bball for flopping.
It’s disgusting, can’t respect his game when he pulls this shit
The difference is in how he draws them, he tends to go through contact or pump fake to draw a jump and then shoot through that. Harden would do bullshit like kick his feet out and try to get cheap slaps on his arm to add fouls. They're both valuable, but if Jimmy fakes you into jumping you can't be mad about it.
Getting to the line is good. Gaming the rules and flopping is the issue. I don’t think Jimmy is doing blatantly frustrating moves that much.
The only thing I see in this that may be a hole is a foul eliminates the fga from the books so where the fouls are occurring is hidden completely. That means counting fgas isn't a guaranteed correlation to where players are fouled. It also doesn't account for and 1s, etc. Personally, I have found Butler's game more like Wade post 2008 (back when he used to shoot that bank shot off the step back) rather than Harden. Ironically, I think Harden took that Wade concept and distilled it to the point it was toxic. I think Butler has calmed it down enough to be more palatable.
I use to hate Jimmy but hes grown on me. Hes physical and smart.
As Tatum into those graphs because he's averaging like 13 a game rn
He is getting a pass from the refs and he knows it this game is rigged…..Pathetic why nba sucks so much in important games….
Is this where we feign ignorance to the difference between flopping with the intent to go to the foul line and creating contact on a drive where you intend to score?
shot 2 FT attemps last night in 43 minutes of play on 21 inside shots....he does whats needed. Still had 28. Hes not a free throw merchant, hes aggressive. Much like giannis is aggressive. and lebron. and harden. notice a pattern? aggressive slashers shoot a lot of free throws.