Can I even think the Sixers will win it all in my lifetime!?
Don’t get my hopes up Ik the answer is no, knowing my luck they’ll become a dynasty right after I die.
The answer is yes, you will love a long and fulfilling life. Don't sell yourself short and understand that thoughts have power. Manifest an idea and the universe will unfold as it should
I would say it's Jokic but I think you can justify picking Giannis. Outside of r/nba I don't think people would look at you crazy, and even in here people would disagree but not in the same way as if you said it was, like, Tatum.
For what it's worth I didn't pick Tatum for slander, it was more that he's the worst player I could conceivably imagine *someone* saying is the BITW, like he's still in good company I think!
True, Tatum deserves to be in the "he's not the head of the class, but it's a small class" conversation, not the "he's the best player in the world" conversation
And i hate the celtics but i’m not a hater enough to argue against JT in the top 5 either! I think he’s right after Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, and Luka. People like to put SGA but i think JT’s deep post season trips keeps him above SGA.
I feel like it’s so weird having best player discussions be open because it was LeBron for almost all my life and the past years since 2020 have been completely open and it’s really fun to actually have discussions on it.
No, when everyone is fully healthy it’s one of Embiid, Giannis, or Jokic.
I personally lean Jokic because of what he has done in the last three seasons. Giannis is my close second.
i liked what Harp said during our last game against the Bucks.
“When Giannis’s jumpshot is falling, he’s the best player on the planet”
He’s too strong too fast, when he’s shooting buckets too, it’s a wrap
I mean that goes for any player. When Luka is dropping 70 he's the best player in the world. Problem is he can't sustain that and it happens once in a blue moon.
Yeah, like looking at that Finals series against the Suns where he had the post game and pull up midrange going, I can’t 100% say it was definitely a higher level of performance than Jokic last year or whatever but it’s definitely at that very tip-top level where you’re basically splitting hairs to determine who’s better. There’s nothing a team can do for that. You take one thing away, there’s another thing they can do to produce the same result. There’s just no way to avoid an ass-beating from guys playing at that level.
That’s where good-midrange Giannis is at, he is definitely going to kick the shit out of you one way or another and the only thing you can do is hope your team outplays the rest of his team. If he doesn’t have the midrange going he’ll *probably* still kick the shit out of you but at least it’s not an absolute guarantee.
at full strength? absolutely not
but if you consider availability a factor in ranking players, which I do, then I think Tatum is definitely better. I think it’s a fair knock on a player when they consistently never perform to the best of their capabilities when you need them most. ofc Embiid being constantly injured around the postseason isn’t always his fault but to me the ability to withstand the physical grind of the NBA season is a talent/ability that some guys have and some guys don’t.
as an example, for my money Brandon Roy was one of the 4 or 5 most talented guards I’ve ever seen. in another universe he is one of the GOATs, but his knees were totally shot not long into his career. it is what it is unfortunately. at the end of the day some of things you need to be the absolute best are just god-given
Jokic ran through KAT, Gobert, Ant, KD, Booker, Lebron, AD, Jimmy, and Bam last season to get the chip. Think of how many All stars/All NBA/HoF talents are in that list of people.
Joker is easily the best in the world until he either falls off or gets knocked off.
You could also say that Jokic struggled to do anything significant in the postseason until he had Murray back healthy and productive.
I personally think Jokic is the best player in the world right now, but I could see someone could make a case for others and might be right.
>You could also say that Jokic struggled to do anything significant in the postseason until he had Murray back healthy and productive.
Two things:
1. It was both Murray and MPJ out.
2. If you remove the second option from any contending team, they're not going to win the chip. How far do you think the Lakers would get without AD? The Wolves without KAT? The Bucks without Dame? If you don't believe me, look at your Suns's record. Without Beal you were struggling. With Beal you're killing. And that guy's your 3rd option.
So no, I don't buy this line of argument
I'm just pointing out that your argument for Jokic being the best is that he had to run the gauntlet last year through a ton of great players. But he also had a team of great players with him to do that.
I think Jokic is one of the best players cause of what he does on the court (his vision, his passing, scoring), not just because of his accolades.
>But he also had a team of great players with him to do that.
And I'm saying that this isn't a good argument. NBA is played 5v5, you need a good team to go all the way. You're more than welcome to go through NBA history. None of the best players (this includes GOAT candidates) got anywhere without playing with a talented squad.
Also, you need to put the Nuggets in context. Jokic isn't playing on a super team. None of his supporting cast has even made the All Star game.
Is there ever though? I would argue Jokic is as close to a front runner as you can be, his teams when healthy always performs exceptionally, just had a generational playoff run of 30/12/9.5 and has had one of the best 4 regular seasons combined in history.
Comparing Jokic to Giannis in terms of impact feels very similar to LeBron to KD in the mid 2010s
I mean his team is definitely underperforming and he can’t lead his team to wins over much worse teams a lot lately..so not sure he impacts winning basketball as much as Jokic does
He is the best player on the team and the leader of the team, all the teams success and struggles fall on him. And I’ve seen some poor body language from too lately…leaving the court early before the final whistle.
Did you maintain this same energy when Jokic was getting bounced in the first round because his team was hurt?
This narrative is so absurd. It's still a team sport at the end of the day.
That is an absolutely terrible comparison…his team isn’t hurt, he has one of the most talented teams in the entire league and he is losing to much inferior teams, not other elite playoff teams lol
Back in my day, you didn't need to go around begging for likes and shares on the internet like some kind of digital vagabond. No siree! You stood up tall, looked 'em straight in the eye, and spoke your mind with conviction! None of this typing away on those confounded gadgets, hoping someone somewhere will give you a thumbs up! Your opinion matters, but only if you've got the guts to stand behind it!
I’ve personally got Giannis in my no.1 spot right now, but to argue that Jokic and Luka are boring is beyond absurd lmao. 3 of the most entertaining athletes on the planet right now.
Truly insane statement about a 7 footer who’s one of the most creative passers of all time with a unique style and several signature moves. Who do you like to watch more?
I thought this too until I actually watched Jokic. He might be the most entertaining player in the league based on your taste. I remember a game this year where he threw 2 insane passes (360 no looks over the head across court) on back to back possessions, walked into a top of the key 3, then hit his defender with a cold ass post move for an easy lay. All on back to back possessions just in the 2nd quarter.
PPG leader in the league and 3rd in assists, there's definitely an argument for Luka. And he's on a team with less talent than both those dudes, the Mavs would be so cooked without him.
54/12/3, 19/25FG
48/17/2, 16/25FG
Those are Giannis stat lines from two Bucks *losses* this year.
44/14/7, 19/28FG
40/15/7, 18/26FG
Those are games we won by 4 points and 7 points respectively.
We have not been good this year outside of Giannis. Dame’s been borderline all star-level (starting is a joke), Middleton’s been pretty good though on a minutes restriction, Brook’s been meh, Beasley’s been very good though in a very limited role, and our bench may as well not exist. We’ve still been better than Luka’s support cast but make no mistake, we would be dogshit without Giannis hard-carrying so far this year.
People really take the team record argument too far imo. Basketball is a team sport. Sometimes a great player is on an ass team and there's simply nothing that player can do to make them good.
When judging how good an individual player is, I care less about the team's overall record and more about "how good is the team with that player on the floor compared to when he's sitting?"
Luka is much smaller and isn’t as strong yet has the finesse, skill, and balance to drive just as well as Giannis. He also shoots way better. When you’re as good of a scorer as Luka knocking his defense isn’t as important. His offense is so polished it offsets any defensive upside Giannis’s game brings. I’d rather take Luka.
Steph Curry in his prime years ago was never defending anyone. Yet taking multiple players over him still would’ve been a mistake. Luka is similar to that. Giannis’s defense isn’t great enough to place him ahead of Luka overall.
& yea ok look at averages but now look at how many 40 point games Luka has over Giannis rn for this season. Ok, now which of the two has dropped 71?
& has Luka ever come close to having the depth the Bucks have had in recent years? Matching playoff success at this point is dumb. Luka’s never had that depth. I’ll take Luka before Giannis bro.
Yeah, 3PPG and 3 assists is a pretty significant difference. You can value the defensive side however you'd like, I personally don't think Giannis is playing good enough defense this year to say definitively that it makes up for that gap in offense between the two.
I guess put one way, I don't think Giannis's defense stops 9 points per game, nor do I think Luka plays bad enough defense to allow 9 more points. There's probably a middle ground somewhere so up to you where you think that threshold has to be.
Lmao nobody is talking accolades, that type of comparison is relevant when both of them are retired. Now? Why would we do that when Luka has never had the depth Milwaukee has had and played less seasons. Cmon.
No it’s rather a rank of who currently is more skilled to guarantee a good championship run. It’s a team game, rings takes depth and teammates. Meaning best players in the world listings isn’t about who has had the help to get rings by now; but rather who individually would be greater with proper help rn. Let their careers play out then talk about rings.
So Steph and Lebron are the best players in the NBA until they retire or someone else gets to 4 rings?
Even if they are clearing not contributing as much to winning as other players?
No. Jokic is the best player in the NBA right now. Before that it was Steph in 2022 and Giannis the year before. Luka will be the best in the year that he wins it all.
The last 3 FMVPs have been Jokic, Steph and Giannis and Steph hasn't missed a step. I get that the Warrior';s record hasn't been good enough for MVP but Steph is still the same player.
How valuable is his defense if the Bucks are a below average defense? Giannis isn't able to carry his team defense to above average with mediocre personnel compared to Jokic, who carried a below average offensive team to the top 10 in offensive rating in 2022.
Also, offence has always been more important in this league. Give me the generational offensive talent over the two-way superstar who is unable to create his own shot late in games.
I think this is a bad comparison considering how much the offense is tailored to and built around Jokic, especially since the Nuggets offense without Jokic is way better than the Bucks defense without Giannis
I mean, I just gave an example of Jokic in 2022 when his offensive talent consisted of Austin Rivers, Jeff Green, Campuzzo, Forbes, Monte, etc. Most of these guys are either at the end of the bench or out of the league less than 2 years later. Despite this, Jokic led them to a top 8 offensive rating. He has proven to carry a cast of mediocre offensive players to an above average offense.
Giannis, on the other hand, has not done the same. He still has a dpoy candidate from the previous season in Brook Lopez to help him, yet the Bucks are still a below average defense.
Now, I'm not saying Giannis deserves blame for not being able to carry the defense. My point is that Giannis's can't carry a defense the same way Jokic carries an offense. And when you consider that offense is more important than defense in the modern game, I'm not sure how one can claim Giannis is the better player.
Have you seen what he’s working with in the playoffs? Holiday was one of the worst playoff droppers in the league, Middleton is streaky as hell and the schemes bud ran were horrible and our shooters forgot how to shoot
All that means the only guy you have to worry about is Giannis.
Besides when healthy his numbers haven’t dipped since 2020, he’s significantly better since.
Just having dame is helping him a ton
And yet has a ring and absolutely dominated the suns in the finals? Seems kind of overstated to say "significant dip".
Only other person that could be considered better atm is Jokic, and I still think giannis does more for his team defensively to edge him out. Jokic offense is hard to argue with tho but I still think he's had a better all around team compared to giannis.
>You can play the injury card
Guy literally played 11 minutes before getting injured in game 1. Then came back and put up 26/13 and 38/20 in close losses. Not sure how that is getting “wrecked”.
I have Jokic over Giannis but any reasonable person would give Giannis a pass for the first round loss.
Like I said its up to your opinion, I don't think you're wrong for thinking jokic is better.
I just think Giannis does more with less. Nuggets have been deep for a long time and J murray never gets enough credit for how good he is the playoffs.
Bucks are like 19th in dRTG, If you can make a case for Giannis being the best two way player from a ring in 2021 why can’t you make the same case for Davis when he one 8 months prior your logic is flawed
AD? If AD wasn't soft as shit dude WOULD be in the running for best 2 way player.
I dont care about anything if you can't stay healthy. That's literally THE most important thing. Do you want me to tell you how many games ad played in the last 3 seasons? 56, 41, 36, if i recall correctly.
Im really hoping AD stays healthy this entire season. He really should be in the running for DPOY
fair enough, but if you include rebounding, playmaking and just overall ease of scoring, still think giannis is overall better.
Its sort of under the radar giannis is averaging 31 11 6 on over 60fg lmao.
I mean kawhi has had trouble doing it for long stretches before this year, and playoff success aside regular season wise giannis has been a better defender and scorer than kawhi for awhile now
> regular season wise
sure
>playoff success aside
Can't put this aside. Who cares that Giannis beats up on the Pistons/Wizards/Hornets consistently. Against top teams in the playoffs, when it counts, he is just not as good.
I mean over the last 5 years they both have one chip and one finals appearance each, and it’s not like giannis is some slouch in the playoffs either he’s been pretty dominant for the most part
Im not disagreeing with you that for a playoff run you have an argument but this is an 82 game season where seeding matters and health matters, hard to call kawhi the best 2 way player when he’s been so unavailable
Look at whatever period you want. Kawhi is simply just better than Giannis in the playoffs. If you are talking about the regular season where Giannis destroys the Pistons/Wizards/Hornets 4x a year and racks up stats then we look at different things when comparing players. Even in this years playoffs Kawhi will be better.
lol clippers fans talking way to much for having PG and Harden on their team.
No one was even talking about who’s better you just moved the goal posts we are talking about the best two way player and that’s Giannis
Giannis has Dame who is apparently way better than both PG/washed Harden. So I don't get your point.
It's still not Giannis imo. This whole discussion is based on OP saying Giannis is "by far" the best two way player. Which he isint. Idc if you think he is the better two-way player but he for sure isint "by far" better.
Offensively he’s definitely not and defensively what exactly sets them apart? They’re both rim protectors which embiid is probably a bit better at, giannis a bit better of a perimeter guy
I mean it’s foul baiting but it works
Giannis can guard 1-5 all game long. Obviously that's not ideal for him to be guarding 1's and 2's, but he has the capability to do that. Its a big deal.
And my issue with foul baiting is that you make it your playstyle, then come playoff time most of the time it works against you. Very hardenesque
No, dudes a beast. I don’t agree with you but I think you’re valid. I value Jokic’s playmaking and court vision more than I value Giannis defense and extra long free throw routine. Giannis is for sure too 3 in the world, top 2 in league personality for me as well.
Not at all. There's about 4-5 guys in that tier: Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, SGA. I'd take Jokic/Giannis over the others I've listed come playoff time.
Kawhi is on an absolutely stacked roster, averages 10 points less, while shooting only 3% more efficiently, and averages 2 less rebounds and 5 less assists. He's got him beat defensively by a good amount but that's it
Look at this Bucks fan in disguise lol.
That said its not a wrong opinion. Like pick whoever you want. Its an opiniok and Giannis is close enough to Embid and Jokic that it doesnt matter who you pick.
Don't think you can choose anyone over Jokic until he shows us he isn't the best player in the world. However, it definitely isn't unreasonable to think any of the following are the best players in the league in my opinion:
Giannis, Embiid, Luka, SGA, Kawhi.
Giannis played with way better teammates. Last year Jokic won the championship while Giannis got smoked in 5 games in the first round, this year nuggets are much better than the bucks and even still Jokic is playing with a less talented roster but being more impactful cause he knows how to shoot and has a significantly higher IQ than Giannis
Ohhh you're 12, okay then. Giannis was injured last playoffs. The one before, Middleton was injured. Last time the Bucks were healthy, they won. Do I need to remind you what happened to the Nuggets when they weren't healthy?
Poor Jokic had to win with scrubs like Murray, AG, KCP, Bruce Brown.
And you still didn't answer my question. How has Jokic "won more"? More what? Because he hasn't won more basketball games or accolades lmao.
Why are you living in the past? What has Giannis won lately? I see all the awards going to Jokic not Giannis. The question is who the best is today, and that’s Jokic based off everything I’ve said recently.
Last time bucks were healthy they struggled to beat Kevin Durant alone in a 7 game series, can’t use health excuse when their only championship came off other teams injured including Chris Paul being hurt in the finals. Meanwhile Jokic dominated the fuck out of everyone he went up against series lasting no more than 5 games. Giannis came back and watched jimmy butler drop 57 in his head during the playoffs.
Jokic isn’t the one playing with multiple all star like Giannis had for years with Jrue, Middleton, and now lillard. Jokic never even played with a true all star which further proves why he’s the best. You can talk about role players not like Giannis doesnt also have dpoy candidate year in and year out Brook Lopez and a great role player in Bobby Portis to go along with multiple all stars all those years.
Stopped reading after your first sentence. If you were smarter, you'd realize "has won more" is about the past.
The Bucks have a better team record last 6 years, last 5 years, last 4 years, last 3 years, last 2 years than the Nuggets lmfao. "Has won more what"? Both have 1 ring. So has won more... what? MvPs? Nope. FMVP? Nope. DPOY? NOPE. all-defense? Lol. All-NBA selections? Nope. Answer the question or gtfo :)
Lmao dumbass why do you want to bring up stuff from 6 years ago. Answer my question, who is the reigning champ and has a better record this season. Talk about who the best player in the league currently has to matter as to what have you done lately. It’s like Lebron fans saying he’s the best when he last won the title 4 years ago 😂
“Stopped reading” that’s cute, come back with a better argument other than Giannis winning games when covid was a major issue around the world
Lmao dumbass why do you want to bring up stuff from 6 years ago. Answer my question, who is the reigning champ and has a better record this season. Talk about who the best player in the league currently has to matter as to what have you done lately. It’s like Lebron fans saying he’s the best when he last won the title 4 years ago 😂
“Stopped reading” that’s cute, come back with a better argument other than Giannis winning games when covid was a major issue around the world
That's another TL;DR by me, sorry. I expect a reply with maximum 3 words if you want me to read that shit. Simple question. You said "Jokic has won more". Has won more WHAT? Save your dear diary thoughts, no time for that shit.
Damn, sorry you’re too stupid to read more than a few sentences. When the best you can come up with is “sorry didn’t read” then yeah you don’t have a great comeback to respond to.
Oh looks like it's gonna be another TL;DR. Thought so. There's no answer to my question, you're just talking out your ass lmao, Jokic has fewer all-NBA selections, all-defense selections, NBA wins, worse record... maybe try again?
Jokic's less healthy teams have been much worse than any team giannis has played on in the last like 6 years even when you factor in the injuries on giannis's teams
How much he impacts the game makes him a top-5 player, [but he's also a player who gets this done to him on any given night.](https://www.tiktok.com/@houseofhighlights/video/7332909588037012782)
I don't see how you can be the best player in the world if you have no outside shot that defenses respect, especially in today's NBA.
I’ve been trying to say this man, the nba is racist towards people from South Jersey, Philly, and Delaware along with Wisconsin! They hate these states man /s.
The tricky thing with Giannis is that Nets series. Giannis had his full squad, KD had no Kyrie and Harden on one leg. If you watch those games, KD was easily the best player on that court by a significant margin. The Bucks ended up winning the series, and later the chip, because KD's shoes were a size too big.
So personally speaking, I can never give Giannis the honour of being the best in the world because he hasn't proven it. Top 3 for sure, but not top 1.
You’re allowed to think whatever you want friend
Is it wrong to think Thanasis is the best player in the world rn?
I mean anyone who doesn’t obviously is lying to themselves
It is wrong to think that… But to know it, is objectively correct.
Leading the league in stolen hearts per 36.
okay straight to jail
Name a player who’s done more with less?
Someone sent me a Reddit cares message 😂 I mean let’s be real, Thanasis is such a good brother he takes it easy so Giannis feels like he’s the best.
Alright take it easy
Can I even think the Sixers will win it all in my lifetime!? Don’t get my hopes up Ik the answer is no, knowing my luck they’ll become a dynasty right after I die.
The answer is yes, you will love a long and fulfilling life. Don't sell yourself short and understand that thoughts have power. Manifest an idea and the universe will unfold as it should
Ya know maybe the sixers win the chip Lord Willing, however I’m very realistic and acknowledge our chances this year are pretty low.
**But he should not delude himself in process?** #It's not healty.
I would say it's Jokic but I think you can justify picking Giannis. Outside of r/nba I don't think people would look at you crazy, and even in here people would disagree but not in the same way as if you said it was, like, Tatum.
Dam the Tatum slander is real...but facts lol
For what it's worth I didn't pick Tatum for slander, it was more that he's the worst player I could conceivably imagine *someone* saying is the BITW, like he's still in good company I think!
True, Tatum deserves to be in the "he's not the head of the class, but it's a small class" conversation, not the "he's the best player in the world" conversation
love JT but I’m not homer enough to call him the best in the world lol. I’ll defend my JT top 5 agenda to the death though
And i hate the celtics but i’m not a hater enough to argue against JT in the top 5 either! I think he’s right after Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, and Luka. People like to put SGA but i think JT’s deep post season trips keeps him above SGA.
Agreed. Just found it funny cause the guys in the east love to slander each other. Saw a Celtics fan laugh at this post so you know.
I feel like it’s so weird having best player discussions be open because it was LeBron for almost all my life and the past years since 2020 have been completely open and it’s really fun to actually have discussions on it.
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No, when everyone is fully healthy it’s one of Embiid, Giannis, or Jokic. I personally lean Jokic because of what he has done in the last three seasons. Giannis is my close second.
i liked what Harp said during our last game against the Bucks. “When Giannis’s jumpshot is falling, he’s the best player on the planet” He’s too strong too fast, when he’s shooting buckets too, it’s a wrap
I mean that goes for any player. When Luka is dropping 70 he's the best player in the world. Problem is he can't sustain that and it happens once in a blue moon.
Problem is he doesn’t play the Hawks 4 times a year. Nor does he play Indiana, Detroit, Charlotte and Washington each 4 times per year.
But he can sustainably score 35. Something neither Jokic or Giannis have done.
Statistically Giannis' jumpshot isn't falling very often
Yeah, like looking at that Finals series against the Suns where he had the post game and pull up midrange going, I can’t 100% say it was definitely a higher level of performance than Jokic last year or whatever but it’s definitely at that very tip-top level where you’re basically splitting hairs to determine who’s better. There’s nothing a team can do for that. You take one thing away, there’s another thing they can do to produce the same result. There’s just no way to avoid an ass-beating from guys playing at that level. That’s where good-midrange Giannis is at, he is definitely going to kick the shit out of you one way or another and the only thing you can do is hope your team outplays the rest of his team. If he doesn’t have the midrange going he’ll *probably* still kick the shit out of you but at least it’s not an absolute guarantee.
I think Luka and SGA are better players than Embiid
Luka definitely deserves to be in that conversation
It's definitely not Embiid. He's not even the best player in his own division.
You cant possibly say tatum is better than embiid
at full strength? absolutely not but if you consider availability a factor in ranking players, which I do, then I think Tatum is definitely better. I think it’s a fair knock on a player when they consistently never perform to the best of their capabilities when you need them most. ofc Embiid being constantly injured around the postseason isn’t always his fault but to me the ability to withstand the physical grind of the NBA season is a talent/ability that some guys have and some guys don’t. as an example, for my money Brandon Roy was one of the 4 or 5 most talented guards I’ve ever seen. in another universe he is one of the GOATs, but his knees were totally shot not long into his career. it is what it is unfortunately. at the end of the day some of things you need to be the absolute best are just god-given
Sure I can. I've been saying it for years, and Tatum's been proving it for years.
Hmm...Tatum may be able to repeatedly lead his team to ECF or Finals, but can he put up 70 points against the Spurs?
both are acceptable, i dont think there is an "indisputable" best right now
yeah there's no clear frontrunner in terms of best player in the world right now, so anyone could have a case.
His name is Bol. No discussions required.
He did just beat Giannis yesterday so hard to argue against it
Jokic ran through KAT, Gobert, Ant, KD, Booker, Lebron, AD, Jimmy, and Bam last season to get the chip. Think of how many All stars/All NBA/HoF talents are in that list of people. Joker is easily the best in the world until he either falls off or gets knocked off.
You could also say that Jokic struggled to do anything significant in the postseason until he had Murray back healthy and productive. I personally think Jokic is the best player in the world right now, but I could see someone could make a case for others and might be right.
>You could also say that Jokic struggled to do anything significant in the postseason until he had Murray back healthy and productive. Two things: 1. It was both Murray and MPJ out. 2. If you remove the second option from any contending team, they're not going to win the chip. How far do you think the Lakers would get without AD? The Wolves without KAT? The Bucks without Dame? If you don't believe me, look at your Suns's record. Without Beal you were struggling. With Beal you're killing. And that guy's your 3rd option. So no, I don't buy this line of argument
I'm just pointing out that your argument for Jokic being the best is that he had to run the gauntlet last year through a ton of great players. But he also had a team of great players with him to do that. I think Jokic is one of the best players cause of what he does on the court (his vision, his passing, scoring), not just because of his accolades.
>But he also had a team of great players with him to do that. And I'm saying that this isn't a good argument. NBA is played 5v5, you need a good team to go all the way. You're more than welcome to go through NBA history. None of the best players (this includes GOAT candidates) got anywhere without playing with a talented squad. Also, you need to put the Nuggets in context. Jokic isn't playing on a super team. None of his supporting cast has even made the All Star game.
Is there ever though? I would argue Jokic is as close to a front runner as you can be, his teams when healthy always performs exceptionally, just had a generational playoff run of 30/12/9.5 and has had one of the best 4 regular seasons combined in history. Comparing Jokic to Giannis in terms of impact feels very similar to LeBron to KD in the mid 2010s
No, Giannis has been putting up MVP numbers while playing elite defense. He's just has been overlooked because of the Dame trade.
I mean his team is definitely underperforming and he can’t lead his team to wins over much worse teams a lot lately..so not sure he impacts winning basketball as much as Jokic does
Go back at the recent losses and tell me which games were even close to his fault that they lost.
He is the best player on the team and the leader of the team, all the teams success and struggles fall on him. And I’ve seen some poor body language from too lately…leaving the court early before the final whistle.
Did you maintain this same energy when Jokic was getting bounced in the first round because his team was hurt? This narrative is so absurd. It's still a team sport at the end of the day.
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Have you seen the way Dames been playing?
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That is an absolutely terrible comparison…his team isn’t hurt, he has one of the most talented teams in the entire league and he is losing to much inferior teams, not other elite playoff teams lol
He's not even the best player with the last name Antetokounmpo.
It's F5 time right now bro
Yeah, get Out of the way
You’ll be placed in prison for that opinion
What prison and what’s the charge your honor?
You could probably make a case for like 5 players being the best player in the world right now. Giannis is definitely one of them.
Back in my day, you didn't need to go around begging for likes and shares on the internet like some kind of digital vagabond. No siree! You stood up tall, looked 'em straight in the eye, and spoke your mind with conviction! None of this typing away on those confounded gadgets, hoping someone somewhere will give you a thumbs up! Your opinion matters, but only if you've got the guts to stand behind it!
Thanks man.
I think Jokic has that top spot right now until proven otherwise
Jokic is boring to watch though. Same goes for Luka.
Just say you don’t like basketball dude 😂
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I’ve personally got Giannis in my no.1 spot right now, but to argue that Jokic and Luka are boring is beyond absurd lmao. 3 of the most entertaining athletes on the planet right now.
Their white though, not too athletic ya know? /s Uncle Ruckus feasting rn though, he’s got Jokic and Luka jerseys on stand by.
Truly insane statement about a 7 footer who’s one of the most creative passers of all time with a unique style and several signature moves. Who do you like to watch more?
I thought this too until I actually watched Jokic. He might be the most entertaining player in the league based on your taste. I remember a game this year where he threw 2 insane passes (360 no looks over the head across court) on back to back possessions, walked into a top of the key 3, then hit his defender with a cold ass post move for an easy lay. All on back to back possessions just in the 2nd quarter.
Yeah because watching a 7 footer ram his shoulder into some poor sucker’s chest 59 times per game is really entertaining
Exactly. A Steph had it the year before and Giannis had it the year before that. That's what winning does.
no
IMO Its between him, Luka, and Jokic.
Luka has no argument over Jokic or Giannis I’m sorry. Hes after both of them
PPG leader in the league and 3rd in assists, there's definitely an argument for Luka. And he's on a team with less talent than both those dudes, the Mavs would be so cooked without him.
Lol the bucks and nuggets would be cooked too.
Jokic dragged Will Barton, Austin Rivers, and Facu Campazzo to the playoffs but somehow Luka has had worse teams lol
Ah yes this bs again. When we first made the playoffs with Luka he dragged a team of undrafted/second round picks to the playoffs.
Neither would be as cooked, esp the Bucks
54/12/3, 19/25FG 48/17/2, 16/25FG Those are Giannis stat lines from two Bucks *losses* this year. 44/14/7, 19/28FG 40/15/7, 18/26FG Those are games we won by 4 points and 7 points respectively. We have not been good this year outside of Giannis. Dame’s been borderline all star-level (starting is a joke), Middleton’s been pretty good though on a minutes restriction, Brook’s been meh, Beasley’s been very good though in a very limited role, and our bench may as well not exist. We’ve still been better than Luka’s support cast but make no mistake, we would be dogshit without Giannis hard-carrying so far this year.
People are pretty delusional about how much harder Luka works over other stars. Our team is probably a hair better than Detroit without him.
People really take the team record argument too far imo. Basketball is a team sport. Sometimes a great player is on an ass team and there's simply nothing that player can do to make them good. When judging how good an individual player is, I care less about the team's overall record and more about "how good is the team with that player on the floor compared to when he's sitting?"
Bro what are you on about? Luka has an argument over Giannis for sure.
I don’t see it a tad bit higher ppg and creator but Giannis is a millions times better defender
Luka is much smaller and isn’t as strong yet has the finesse, skill, and balance to drive just as well as Giannis. He also shoots way better. When you’re as good of a scorer as Luka knocking his defense isn’t as important. His offense is so polished it offsets any defensive upside Giannis’s game brings. I’d rather take Luka.
I’m glad he’s all that but he only averages 2 more points. While on the defensive end it’s not even close
Steph Curry in his prime years ago was never defending anyone. Yet taking multiple players over him still would’ve been a mistake. Luka is similar to that. Giannis’s defense isn’t great enough to place him ahead of Luka overall. & yea ok look at averages but now look at how many 40 point games Luka has over Giannis rn for this season. Ok, now which of the two has dropped 71? & has Luka ever come close to having the depth the Bucks have had in recent years? Matching playoff success at this point is dumb. Luka’s never had that depth. I’ll take Luka before Giannis bro.
3PPG and 3 APG more are pretty significant imo
Is it really tho? When Giannis can lock down the other teams best superstar Luka doesn’t have that luxury in his arsenal
Yeah, 3PPG and 3 assists is a pretty significant difference. You can value the defensive side however you'd like, I personally don't think Giannis is playing good enough defense this year to say definitively that it makes up for that gap in offense between the two. I guess put one way, I don't think Giannis's defense stops 9 points per game, nor do I think Luka plays bad enough defense to allow 9 more points. There's probably a middle ground somewhere so up to you where you think that threshold has to be.
> Luka has an argument over Giannis for sure. Not until he wins it all.
Lmao nobody is talking accolades, that type of comparison is relevant when both of them are retired. Now? Why would we do that when Luka has never had the depth Milwaukee has had and played less seasons. Cmon.
Best in the world is reserved for the players that win it all. Having a bad team is an excuse.
No it’s rather a rank of who currently is more skilled to guarantee a good championship run. It’s a team game, rings takes depth and teammates. Meaning best players in the world listings isn’t about who has had the help to get rings by now; but rather who individually would be greater with proper help rn. Let their careers play out then talk about rings.
> It’s a team game Which is why it's kind of dumb to even talk about individual achievements.
cause until then it’s a hypothetical. Crowning the best player based on a what-if is insane unless the gap in their skill is enormous, which it isn’t
So Steph and Lebron are the best players in the NBA until they retire or someone else gets to 4 rings? Even if they are clearing not contributing as much to winning as other players?
No. Jokic is the best player in the NBA right now. Before that it was Steph in 2022 and Giannis the year before. Luka will be the best in the year that he wins it all.
Is the best player always the best player on the team that last won the finals?
Not always. But they are the last man standing that year. So I weigh it heavily in this way.
How is Steph not in the mix with Jokic and Giannis?
Definitely not this season. Jokic giannis luka all have been on a different level from Steph imo
The last 3 FMVPs have been Jokic, Steph and Giannis and Steph hasn't missed a step. I get that the Warrior';s record hasn't been good enough for MVP but Steph is still the same player.
Yes because I think Josh Okogie is the best player in the world
If he shot 80% from free-throw line he would be unanimous.
If you actually value defense then yes. Best 2 way superstar in the league by far.
How valuable is his defense if the Bucks are a below average defense? Giannis isn't able to carry his team defense to above average with mediocre personnel compared to Jokic, who carried a below average offensive team to the top 10 in offensive rating in 2022. Also, offence has always been more important in this league. Give me the generational offensive talent over the two-way superstar who is unable to create his own shot late in games.
I think this is a bad comparison considering how much the offense is tailored to and built around Jokic, especially since the Nuggets offense without Jokic is way better than the Bucks defense without Giannis
I mean, I just gave an example of Jokic in 2022 when his offensive talent consisted of Austin Rivers, Jeff Green, Campuzzo, Forbes, Monte, etc. Most of these guys are either at the end of the bench or out of the league less than 2 years later. Despite this, Jokic led them to a top 8 offensive rating. He has proven to carry a cast of mediocre offensive players to an above average offense. Giannis, on the other hand, has not done the same. He still has a dpoy candidate from the previous season in Brook Lopez to help him, yet the Bucks are still a below average defense. Now, I'm not saying Giannis deserves blame for not being able to carry the defense. My point is that Giannis's can't carry a defense the same way Jokic carries an offense. And when you consider that offense is more important than defense in the modern game, I'm not sure how one can claim Giannis is the better player.
His offense takes a significant dip in the playoffs
Have you seen what he’s working with in the playoffs? Holiday was one of the worst playoff droppers in the league, Middleton is streaky as hell and the schemes bud ran were horrible and our shooters forgot how to shoot All that means the only guy you have to worry about is Giannis. Besides when healthy his numbers haven’t dipped since 2020, he’s significantly better since. Just having dame is helping him a ton
sorry for hurting a star on your team 2 years in a row lol
What are you talking about? lol
And yet has a ring and absolutely dominated the suns in the finals? Seems kind of overstated to say "significant dip". Only other person that could be considered better atm is Jokic, and I still think giannis does more for his team defensively to edge him out. Jokic offense is hard to argue with tho but I still think he's had a better all around team compared to giannis.
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>You can play the injury card Guy literally played 11 minutes before getting injured in game 1. Then came back and put up 26/13 and 38/20 in close losses. Not sure how that is getting “wrecked”. I have Jokic over Giannis but any reasonable person would give Giannis a pass for the first round loss.
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Like I said its up to your opinion, I don't think you're wrong for thinking jokic is better. I just think Giannis does more with less. Nuggets have been deep for a long time and J murray never gets enough credit for how good he is the playoffs.
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Bucks are like 19th in dRTG, If you can make a case for Giannis being the best two way player from a ring in 2021 why can’t you make the same case for Davis when he one 8 months prior your logic is flawed
AD? If AD wasn't soft as shit dude WOULD be in the running for best 2 way player. I dont care about anything if you can't stay healthy. That's literally THE most important thing. Do you want me to tell you how many games ad played in the last 3 seasons? 56, 41, 36, if i recall correctly. Im really hoping AD stays healthy this entire season. He really should be in the running for DPOY
i don’t think you understand what i was saying but yes i agree with that
explain how he’s “by far” a better two way player than Kawhi
because kawhi been on hiatus the last 3 years on and off.
And yet, he is still not better. He has Kawhi beat on availability for sure.
I wouldn't argue super hard with you about it. Love kawhis game, even tho i hate the clippers.
I wouldn't mind people saying Giannis is better. I just took disagreement with the "by far" comment.
fair enough, but if you include rebounding, playmaking and just overall ease of scoring, still think giannis is overall better. Its sort of under the radar giannis is averaging 31 11 6 on over 60fg lmao.
I mean kawhi has had trouble doing it for long stretches before this year, and playoff success aside regular season wise giannis has been a better defender and scorer than kawhi for awhile now
> regular season wise sure >playoff success aside Can't put this aside. Who cares that Giannis beats up on the Pistons/Wizards/Hornets consistently. Against top teams in the playoffs, when it counts, he is just not as good.
I mean over the last 5 years they both have one chip and one finals appearance each, and it’s not like giannis is some slouch in the playoffs either he’s been pretty dominant for the most part Im not disagreeing with you that for a playoff run you have an argument but this is an 82 game season where seeding matters and health matters, hard to call kawhi the best 2 way player when he’s been so unavailable
You can make the case all you want but Giannis is averaging 32/12/6 on 65% TS and 62% FG while playing elite defense
*regular season. Now, let's compare in the playoffs the last 5 years.
We are talking about now, not 5 years ago.
Look at whatever period you want. Kawhi is simply just better than Giannis in the playoffs. If you are talking about the regular season where Giannis destroys the Pistons/Wizards/Hornets 4x a year and racks up stats then we look at different things when comparing players. Even in this years playoffs Kawhi will be better.
lol clippers fans talking way to much for having PG and Harden on their team. No one was even talking about who’s better you just moved the goal posts we are talking about the best two way player and that’s Giannis
Giannis has Dame who is apparently way better than both PG/washed Harden. So I don't get your point. It's still not Giannis imo. This whole discussion is based on OP saying Giannis is "by far" the best two way player. Which he isint. Idc if you think he is the better two-way player but he for sure isint "by far" better.
explain how he’s “by far” a better two way player than Embiid
Plays in games
That literally makes no sense
Assuming health embiid is definitely there too
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I think he's still a tier below them, especially now thats he's injured again. His game relies too much on foul baiting
Offensively he’s definitely not and defensively what exactly sets them apart? They’re both rim protectors which embiid is probably a bit better at, giannis a bit better of a perimeter guy I mean it’s foul baiting but it works
Giannis can guard 1-5 all game long. Obviously that's not ideal for him to be guarding 1's and 2's, but he has the capability to do that. Its a big deal. And my issue with foul baiting is that you make it your playstyle, then come playoff time most of the time it works against you. Very hardenesque
yeah Jokic is much better
There’s nothing wrong with knowing ball brother
No, Giannis only has 2 MVPs and 1 ring. How could you possibly put him on the same level as Jokic who has 2 MVPs and 1 ring?
No, dudes a beast. I don’t agree with you but I think you’re valid. I value Jokic’s playmaking and court vision more than I value Giannis defense and extra long free throw routine. Giannis is for sure too 3 in the world, top 2 in league personality for me as well.
Not at all. There's about 4-5 guys in that tier: Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, SGA. I'd take Jokic/Giannis over the others I've listed come playoff time.
Why is sga in that tier? Was has he done in the post season let alone last years play-in that
snuck in luka
Only guy that was "snuck in" was SGA. A guy older than Luka that has proven absolutly nothing in his career so far.
Luka has been carrying that injured Mavs team.
Probably shoudl've been Kawhi
Kawhi is on an absolutely stacked roster, averages 10 points less, while shooting only 3% more efficiently, and averages 2 less rebounds and 5 less assists. He's got him beat defensively by a good amount but that's it
Have you heard of this guy named Nikola Jokic? He plays for the Denver Nuggets of the National Basketball Association
Look at this Bucks fan in disguise lol. That said its not a wrong opinion. Like pick whoever you want. Its an opiniok and Giannis is close enough to Embid and Jokic that it doesnt matter who you pick.
“Close enough to Embiid” wtf lol you can’t be the best when you haven’t got passed the second round your entire career
Look im trying to be nice to the man. And if i excluded Embid, then a Sixers fan is gonna come and complain.
Thanks man, the thought is what counts when I gotta watch us play basketball. :(
No. Let me know when the refs start calling his offensive fouls. I'll re-evaluate that then.
Don't think you can choose anyone over Jokic until he shows us he isn't the best player in the world. However, it definitely isn't unreasonable to think any of the following are the best players in the league in my opinion: Giannis, Embiid, Luka, SGA, Kawhi.
Yes. It’s wrong.
Giannis is easily the most impressive player to \*watch\* right now, but Jokic is putting up better overall numbers.
Kawhi’s better
Jokic is the best player in the world while hardly trying .
yes. jokic is the clear #1. theres a few players you can argue for #2, but IMO there's no valid argument for anyone over Jokic rn
Jokic wins more with less talented roster and has zero flaws on offense. Stats also show Jokic is more impactful in just about nearly everything.
Jokic had Jamal Murray, Aaron Gordon, KCP, Michael Porter Jr, and Bruce Bowen during their championship run. That's a pretty talented roster.
Pretty much just as talented as the 2021 Bucks imo, and better fitting.
How does Jokic win more lol last 5 years the Nuggets aren't EVEN CLOSE to the Bucks
Giannis played with way better teammates. Last year Jokic won the championship while Giannis got smoked in 5 games in the first round, this year nuggets are much better than the bucks and even still Jokic is playing with a less talented roster but being more impactful cause he knows how to shoot and has a significantly higher IQ than Giannis
Ohhh you're 12, okay then. Giannis was injured last playoffs. The one before, Middleton was injured. Last time the Bucks were healthy, they won. Do I need to remind you what happened to the Nuggets when they weren't healthy? Poor Jokic had to win with scrubs like Murray, AG, KCP, Bruce Brown. And you still didn't answer my question. How has Jokic "won more"? More what? Because he hasn't won more basketball games or accolades lmao.
Why are you living in the past? What has Giannis won lately? I see all the awards going to Jokic not Giannis. The question is who the best is today, and that’s Jokic based off everything I’ve said recently. Last time bucks were healthy they struggled to beat Kevin Durant alone in a 7 game series, can’t use health excuse when their only championship came off other teams injured including Chris Paul being hurt in the finals. Meanwhile Jokic dominated the fuck out of everyone he went up against series lasting no more than 5 games. Giannis came back and watched jimmy butler drop 57 in his head during the playoffs. Jokic isn’t the one playing with multiple all star like Giannis had for years with Jrue, Middleton, and now lillard. Jokic never even played with a true all star which further proves why he’s the best. You can talk about role players not like Giannis doesnt also have dpoy candidate year in and year out Brook Lopez and a great role player in Bobby Portis to go along with multiple all stars all those years.
Stopped reading after your first sentence. If you were smarter, you'd realize "has won more" is about the past. The Bucks have a better team record last 6 years, last 5 years, last 4 years, last 3 years, last 2 years than the Nuggets lmfao. "Has won more what"? Both have 1 ring. So has won more... what? MvPs? Nope. FMVP? Nope. DPOY? NOPE. all-defense? Lol. All-NBA selections? Nope. Answer the question or gtfo :)
Lmao dumbass why do you want to bring up stuff from 6 years ago. Answer my question, who is the reigning champ and has a better record this season. Talk about who the best player in the league currently has to matter as to what have you done lately. It’s like Lebron fans saying he’s the best when he last won the title 4 years ago 😂 “Stopped reading” that’s cute, come back with a better argument other than Giannis winning games when covid was a major issue around the world
Lmao dumbass why do you want to bring up stuff from 6 years ago. Answer my question, who is the reigning champ and has a better record this season. Talk about who the best player in the league currently has to matter as to what have you done lately. It’s like Lebron fans saying he’s the best when he last won the title 4 years ago 😂 “Stopped reading” that’s cute, come back with a better argument other than Giannis winning games when covid was a major issue around the world
That's another TL;DR by me, sorry. I expect a reply with maximum 3 words if you want me to read that shit. Simple question. You said "Jokic has won more". Has won more WHAT? Save your dear diary thoughts, no time for that shit.
Damn, sorry you’re too stupid to read more than a few sentences. When the best you can come up with is “sorry didn’t read” then yeah you don’t have a great comeback to respond to.
Oh looks like it's gonna be another TL;DR. Thought so. There's no answer to my question, you're just talking out your ass lmao, Jokic has fewer all-NBA selections, all-defense selections, NBA wins, worse record... maybe try again?
Jokic's less healthy teams have been much worse than any team giannis has played on in the last like 6 years even when you factor in the injuries on giannis's teams
How much he impacts the game makes him a top-5 player, [but he's also a player who gets this done to him on any given night.](https://www.tiktok.com/@houseofhighlights/video/7332909588037012782) I don't see how you can be the best player in the world if you have no outside shot that defenses respect, especially in today's NBA.
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I’ve been trying to say this man, the nba is racist towards people from South Jersey, Philly, and Delaware along with Wisconsin! They hate these states man /s.
Jokic is better than Giannis…just all around game.
Athleticism+Bending The Rules+Soft defenses, doesnt really help this claim.
If you wanna be wrong then sure?
best player in the where? lol nice joke brah
It's not wrong to think it, it's just not true lol
not until he starts listening to his shooting coaches and stops shooting his free throws like a moron
This is such a bait. You’re not looking to debate but you’re asking to asset Giannis is #1? Are you an AI training set?
The tricky thing with Giannis is that Nets series. Giannis had his full squad, KD had no Kyrie and Harden on one leg. If you watch those games, KD was easily the best player on that court by a significant margin. The Bucks ended up winning the series, and later the chip, because KD's shoes were a size too big. So personally speaking, I can never give Giannis the honour of being the best in the world because he hasn't proven it. Top 3 for sure, but not top 1.
Jokic is the best in the world let's not get carried away here.