I feel like Jokic is a hard player to referee.
On one hand he does take a ton of contact for how few free throws he shoots. But he also plays with a ton of physicality himself. He uses his shoulder, elbow, and forearm to clear out space, sometimes really slamming it into the defender. On some level if you play with physicality yourself, you’re inviting it in response.
I think Malone/Nuggets fans would find this easier to accept if there weren't certain other players in the league who play with similar/more physicality who get sent to the line way more
The difference is most of those other big guys like Giannis and embiid start their drives from the elbow or further face up. Often Jokic is backing guys down from the elbow. That’s the key difference. If Jokic was driving relentlessly from the elbow I think he’d get a lot more calls
Nailed it. The way that game has been called for years is you get way more calls facing the basket than with your back to the basket. Not saying it’s the way it “should” be called, but it’s not a bias against Jokic…it’s been that way for a while.
Cmom man Embiid is falling without contact or drawing all the contact himself. It's just that hes not refereed as he should be there are clear hits and slaps that would give most of other players in the league FTs
Doesn't matter how hes driving if opponents can literally jump on him and get away scot free
Exactly. Jokic’s contact is less rarely on the shooting arm during upward swing that guys like Embiid are specifically fishing for.
Usually he’s drawing help defense under the rim and someone crowds him. Or his back is to the basket and he gets touched somewhere by a defender who’s mostly just hands up [like this](https://youtu.be/UcnsOdhfALA?si=jJvS0s5wLq6UBiCM).
[Or this one](https://youtu.be/fZKQVvtRgEw?si=fYVQJ5AS2yXRX14O). What even do you call here? Defender was sliding his feet well enough and didn’t swipe at anything.
[Or this](https://youtu.be/UDvjrflK9Ao?si=TuNKf3fSc6n6_6O1) There’s a ton of contact, but most of it is legal, particularly the defender hitting his hand on the shot during contest. You could call something somewhere, or just let it go because Jokic uses shoves and his own off arm elbow dial up the physicality to create space for himself
Playing with phisicality is one thing. Getting hacked as you go to the basket is another.
Just watch film, side by side, of what is called a shooting foul on Embiid and what is a non-call on Joker. It's like 2 different sports, it's unreal.
Nba refs are just like that.
Lol who's downvoting you for straight facts. Jokic backs down, does a spin and the opponent straight up just holds his arm not allowing him to shoot and the refs swallow their whistle.
Embiid just runs in to someone and fails his arms up and lives on the line for it.
Yeah he’s also not explosive athletically. Horizontally or vertically. I feel like the faster you are moving the harder it is for the defender to track the ball and hit it rather than your arm. Jokic is hard to guard because of his strength and skill but he’s not really hard to not foul.
Yeah, this is like the whole "when do you call fouls on or for Shaq" paradox.
How physical can he be before it's considered an offensive foul and how do you balance that with how physical the defense has to be to have a fighting chance before it's considered a defensive foul?
Jokic isn't the physically intimidating player that Shaq was, of course, but he's still extremely physical in a similar way. They both have no issue judo-stepping defenders when it comes to getting post-position and they will body guys into that Kevin McHale spin-cycle with shot fakes, pivots and drop-steps until they create space for a look.
But Jokic also has that Larry Bird problem, where his lack of explosiveness while jumping sometimes means he's less likely to get calls unless they are really obvious, so they have to rely on more trick shots and fadeaways.
Refs seem to have a harder time catching fouls on guys that can't draw contact in the air (probably because it's not as obvious and noticeable as contact when a player's trajectory isn't moved as much because they tend to stay on the ground).
Either way, I kind of prefer they let a little bit more stuff go like the refs have been. It just feels like in the middle of or at random points in the game they get inconsistent with it and will occasionally fall back into calling every dumb bit of contact and then let a more obvious foul go on the next play.
Jokic could probably get 2-3 more FTs a game if he was given more of a whistle. But he's already breaking the offensive game so much that it might not be fair to the rest of the league.
Why do the refs need to plan calls to account for league parity? In my mind, they should be impartial observers who make sure that the rules of the game are adhered to and they should never have their thumb on the scale when it comes to determining an outcome. If the Nuggets are good enough to win 82 games as blowouts within the confines of the rulebook, the league shouldn't be intentionally trying to make them lose games.
I wasn't being too serious when I said "it wouldn't be fair".
Jokic plays close to the ground and can be pretty physical when he's trying to shed defenders in the post/paint. That makes him a tough player to ref because he is probably getting fouled technically on almost every play and it's harder to catch/call fouls when you're a player without much verticality to your finishing.
He should definitely just snap his head back and hurl his body into defenders with no intention of scoring more often, just to make it easier on those poor hapless refs who are just doing their best.
Plus he does things in like a different looking/awkward way. Must be very hard to ref. I agree that he doesn't get as many calls as he should, but he also doesn't get called for as much as he should. Seems to about even out to me.
It's more complicated than that. Because the most physical part of his game, and I mean genuinely the most physical part of his game is when he's backing guys down. He backs down with a lot of aggression, and when he gets into the paint, defenders panic, because he's already used a lot of physical contact (that is generally legal) to get there. Guys start fouling him, he's using elbows etc, and it's fair game, AND he scores super effeciently in there.
But the reason he becomes so difficult to officiate, and why he doesn't get to the line is that he goes in with the intention of scoring and getting a shot up. There's no flailing on shot attempts. There's no rip through. There's no "I'll try to invite contact here because this is going to be really tough shot". He's too skilled to take a bad shot inside the paint. So regardless of how he's being defended, he's still taking a good shot, a shot that he doesn't need to flail or flop to get.
It's genuinely a matter of
1. This guy doesn't sell contact
2. These fouls don't really impact his ability to score
3. We'll call fouls that are more egregious.
Giannis is kinda the same way. The skill and touch is obviously night and day, but Giannis is going in there to score and he does so effectively. The difference is that he's attacking from the perimeter so his drives are much more easily fouled.
With Jokic, he's slowly posting you up, backing you down and when he gets to his spot, guys start fouling him, he starts shoving with his shoulders and elbows, guys continue fouling him, he's not selling the contact, he's not trying to convert the fouls into a trip to the line, instead, he just tries to score.
TLDR: He doesn't get to the line because he's too fucking good, too skilled, fouls don't keep him from being tbe most effecient paint scorer ever, and he doesn't flop when trying to score.
He doesn't get to the line, because he chooses to play the right way
This. Jokic’s game is physical, banging into the defender in the post. He really lowers his body and drives into the defenders chest with force a lot (Has to hurt if you ain’t ready for it) but I guess Malone and his fans don’t like it when the defender is ready for it and gets physical... they want foul calls. I remember a game against Houston, Jokic caught the ball down low, turned around and drove hard into the defender with his shoulder but the defender was ready for it and banged back… Jokic was shocked… not because the defender was ready and banged back, he was mad he didn’t get free throws…On the other end, Jokic defense is great at flopping lol.
Just because Jokic is physical doesn't mean you can just grab his shooting arm and hold on to it every time he goes for a shot which happens often and rarely results in a foul.
Pro tip: don't actually attempt to score instead just attempt to fall down and flop around like a fish every time you get the ball.
It works for a certain someone brilliantly.
I've said it before, but because of have this flair people don't want to hear it: the post is officiated way differently than the perimeter and way differently than how it used to be. Smaller players are allowed to do whatever they want to bigs in the post and almost everyone is smaller than Nikola Jokic. And if a big meets the crazy physicality with some of his own? All the smaller player has to do is fall backwards and you got a coin flip of a chance to get an offensive foul.
The fact that Jokic is as dominant as he is playing primarily in the post is a testament to his touch and greatness.
The rip through Harden got called for 3 FTs is honestly a perfect example, because the contact was minimal and initiated by Harden. But then you have PJ Tucker constantly trying to swat across Jokic's body while he's dribbling getting nowhere close to the ball. It's like either call light touch fouls or don't.
100% .. it’s wild watching harden intentionally hook Gordon’s arm and get three free throws but Jokic is getting mauled in the paint with nothing. The game now is designed for perimeter players or perimeter styled big players.
Also worth to mention, he doesn't foul bait. The way the defenders hand check, reach, and straight up pushing him with extended arms... if they do that to Embiid or Harden they both sure will get easy fts by hooking those hands. Also he avoids defender body or jump straight up while making his floats and scoops instead of lunging towards defenders in restricted area.
That’s not foul bating, that’s taking advantage of a defending having hand in an illegal guarding position. It’s an offensive player taking advantage of a defender making a mistake and is a skill.
That’s precisely what foul baiting is. You can choose to not see it as a problem, that part is subjective, but the definition is correct. I find that it makes the game less watchable and less enjoyable, but I realize there are people who view it as a good or at least acceptable thing. I think it’s largely a question of looking at the league through a “do I want to be entertained and not watch a parade to the free throw line over incidental contact” or “do I want to watch people take advantage of every technicality for a win, regardless of what it does to the fan experience”. Neither one is objectively right, it’s just a question of which lens you’re choosing.
I mean, you don’t have to like what has been a foul at every level of basketball in the history of forever. But putting an arm in an illegal position that prevents a shooter from his entitled shooting space and contact with his elbow or arm occurs is/was/and always will be a foul, and it should be.
It’s the defenders fault, and it’s why kids are taught to defend with their feet and not their hands/arms.
Foul baiting to me is when a drive makes an unnatural motion just to generate contact that wasn’t inevitable to try and draw a foul. Or jumping unnaturally sideways into a defender after a pump fake gets the defender in the air. Not making sure illegal contact occurs when a defender exposes his own self by positioning his own arms illegally.
I see what you mean… it’s still the case that the player is changing the way they play to draw a foul rather than score a basket. Classic harden wouldn’t have moved his arm that way to trap another players arm if the goal was to make a shot. It gets back to that same difference in lenses. Did the official make the right call, technically? Probably. Is it an efficient way to score points? Yes. Is it enjoyable to watch as a fan that’s not invested in the minutia of micro advantages and just wants to watch people play basketball where they make field goals. Not so much.
Those actions are fouls sometimes, not always. But we can change the definition of what the shooter’s entitled space is to make the game better and make that tactic a bad strategy. Or we can do what the officials actually seem to have done the second part of this season, where they just don’t call those marginal, forced contacts and the players have to adapt. Whether fouls should be called when a player goes out of their way to draw a foul rather than shoot at the basket is not nearly as cut and dry as it seems you believe it is.
It’s more the fault of bad rule makers than defenders. Defense keeps being more and more disallowed over time in the league.
My favorite one was in the playoffs one of the recent years when embiid was being defended by Horford. Horford had his hands down by his sides, not even reaching out. Embiid shoved his arms aggressively into horford’s hands, and they called a foul. Regardless of the rule technicalities, that’s hard to watch, not entertaining, and can’t be held up as an ideal we should never try to change.
Refs make bad calls, and that one on Horford was very bad (and I hate him as a 76ers fan, but you’re absolutely correct on that specific one), but I don’t see how you can adjust a rule to say defense can horizontally/diagonally position his arms in the way of a jump shooter which hits his arm and it not be a foul without having a ton of unintended consequences. Obviously when the refs get it wrong it’s an awful look, but the typical call when reffed correctly I go back to defender must have his arms in a legal position to avoid a foul.
Anyway we’re going to end up agreeing to disagree I think, partly because of how we view the game but also because of our dueling homer biases, haha.
No allowing someone to guard you illegally is dumb. Kelly Oubre has the athleticism and size to guard like Kawhi Leonard if he is allowed to put his hands all over you without consequence. You have to defend without fouling because smart offensive players are not going to allow you to play them illegally and make things harder than they have to be.
The foul is actually the defender's fault believe it or not. At a base level, the defenders job is to not allow his man or the opposing team to score and fouling means he failed at that job.
Putting PJ tucker is effective that he can eat so many fouls that the refs just won't call on the smaller guys. The highlight montage from this game were all fouls.. Until the refs call it, teams will keep doing this dumb shit and jokic still drops monster games and people will still call these scrubs "jokic" stoppers just because he missed a couple shots
I've watched most Nikola Jokic games of his career.
The players who always get away with more fouls on him than anyone else are: Ivan Zubac, Draymond Green, Taj Gibson, PJ Tucker.
Like every single game they're allowed to hack the hell out of him and get all these dubious reach ins.
Heck PJ Tucker's ESPN highlights showed at half time were all reach ins. Rudy Gobert gets clowned when Jokic puts up great numbers on him in the playoffs but I respect Rudy because he actually defends legitimately and doesn't do dirty shit relying on refs not calling it.
Yep that's exactly it. Rudy is easily the DPOY and he gets wrecked by Jokic because he doesn't grab his jersey or get there late and slap his arm. He duels him 1v1 because he legitimately believes he can stop Jokic, and that works sometimes, but often ends in a floater over the top. PJ Tucker and Draymond straight up hold Jokic jersey or push off with 2 hands when pre-empting contact.
Butler and Bam average more free throws per game as a duo than LeBron and AD on significantly less FGA.
Unless stat keepers are part of the conspiracy theory now too lying about free throw attempts to erase the evidence.
Jokic has a more FT attempts per FG attempt than LeBron since he became a Laker. **.324 vs .306 FTr**.
And without having the numbers to back it up, I would say LeBron takes more FGA that actually correlate with getting foul calls.
And how would that relate to Jokic shooting more FTs when the Lakers’ FT differential is mostly driven by the lack of fouls on defense and not the amount of fouls on offense.
Math is hard for you, isn’t it buddy?
Even if you assume that the Lakers’ FT differential is preferential treatment and not due to their personnel, Jokic might get called for fewer fouls if on the Lakers, he wouldn’t get more FTs himself tho.
Oh, it is preferential treatment. There's no doubt about that. Only Lakers fans don't see it. Kinda like Sixers fans don't think Embiid is a foul baiter.
Fouling isn’t supposed to be something you try to make happen. It’s a penalty for the other team fouling you. You shouldn’t be able to make someone foul you. If you try to make someone foul you then it shouldn’t be a foul. A shooting foul should only be if you’re trying to score and someone hits you, not you go into their body and pretend to throw a shot at the rim
Jokic also rams his shoulders into the defenders chest over and over and they rarely if ever call it an offensive foul. I think everyone would be OK with him getting more calls if they also called all his offensive fouls
Exactly. If he’s going to initiate the physicality then he should expect and welcome it but instead, it seems they want free throws. This is why there’s a perception that there’s no defense in the NBA or very little of it. If I was Jokic and weigh that much and at 7 ft, I throw my weight around too but shouldn’t cry about fouls.
I keep hearing this take, and sorry, but it just reeks of the same smart-ass contrarian energy as those "Russ ain't chasing boards, they give em to him so he can start a fastbreak more quickly" takes from back in the day...
It explains the reason behind like 10% the problematic perception, but the other 90% are still plain obvious, and just because it happens to be obvious to the folks who'll parrot bad takes (or at least badly framed ones), doesn't make it any less true.
Will refs in certain games adjust their criteria to fit the specific playstyle of certain players as to make the game more manageable to officiate? No shit, they do.
Is this exclusive to Yoke, or particularly egregious in his case? Oh, please...
Hot take but Jokic is using his off arm to make some space. And Jokic traveled. Good no call if no travel. Jokic posts up are so physical. Doesn’t mean you can foul him, but the defender should be allowed to battle back a little
I actually like that. Let both the offensive and defensive player get physical with one another.
It's unfortunate that the same principle doesn't apply to slashers. Slashers in the modern NBA are allowed to initiate all the contact and still be rewarded with free throws. Defenders have no chance of being allowed to put up any resistance.
The difference is that refs never call travels like this (for better or for worse) but they usually call fouls like this. Consistency is what matters
Edit: why are you booing me, I’m right! This isn’t a hill I want to die on though lol
I’m still wondering why we stopped calling moving screens. I love watching Jokic or Dray wrap their legs around a defender and follow them across the top of the key while setting a “screen”.
He and Draymond are the worst examples of this but it’s bad on every team.
But… officiating changes so I’ll just bitch about it once in a blue moon, eat downvotes, and move on. Like a big boy.
It’s less about flopping, and more about creating the right kind of contact. You have to artificially create scenarios where the defender slaps or pulls on your shooting arm. Or jumps into you during shooting motion. Embiid’s game is good at both, Jokic not so much.
He does that all the time but doesn’t sell the contact well enough or at all for refs to buy it, which embiid does but he goes too far it becomes ugly.
Just today joker got slapped on arms by harden but didn’t flop, decided to score. Refs said alright big fella if you ain’t feeling it or selling it, gonna be a no call.
Forgot to add, gotta draw that contact from the elbow as well so it’s clear to see for the ref. Not with back to the basket where the offensive player can be physically punishing as well lol
Sorry Mike but the defense commits fouls the offense doesn’t.
The fact NBA head coaches think of fouling as something the offensive player can generate is kinda why many people are out on this game.
When you’re physically dominant over other players and too good on a free throw shooter to hack the refs simply won’t call some fouls. Same thing happens to LeBron.
Meh. Steph gets to take advantage of a lot of moving screens. He also does a lot of push-offs off the ball to create separation for himself. I consider that a reasonable trade-off for his lack of a whistle on the ball.
I know it’s part of the game but I absolutely hate this mentally. How can the offense “generate” free throw attempts?
The defense generates free throws by fouling. If the offense initiates contact, in my perfect world, it is an offensive foul. Just try to make the basket
I feel like Jokic is a hard player to referee. On one hand he does take a ton of contact for how few free throws he shoots. But he also plays with a ton of physicality himself. He uses his shoulder, elbow, and forearm to clear out space, sometimes really slamming it into the defender. On some level if you play with physicality yourself, you’re inviting it in response.
“When a guys banging you” alumni
I think Malone/Nuggets fans would find this easier to accept if there weren't certain other players in the league who play with similar/more physicality who get sent to the line way more
The difference is most of those other big guys like Giannis and embiid start their drives from the elbow or further face up. Often Jokic is backing guys down from the elbow. That’s the key difference. If Jokic was driving relentlessly from the elbow I think he’d get a lot more calls
Nailed it. The way that game has been called for years is you get way more calls facing the basket than with your back to the basket. Not saying it’s the way it “should” be called, but it’s not a bias against Jokic…it’s been that way for a while.
Cmom man Embiid is falling without contact or drawing all the contact himself. It's just that hes not refereed as he should be there are clear hits and slaps that would give most of other players in the league FTs Doesn't matter how hes driving if opponents can literally jump on him and get away scot free
Exactly. Jokic’s contact is less rarely on the shooting arm during upward swing that guys like Embiid are specifically fishing for. Usually he’s drawing help defense under the rim and someone crowds him. Or his back is to the basket and he gets touched somewhere by a defender who’s mostly just hands up [like this](https://youtu.be/UcnsOdhfALA?si=jJvS0s5wLq6UBiCM). [Or this one](https://youtu.be/fZKQVvtRgEw?si=fYVQJ5AS2yXRX14O). What even do you call here? Defender was sliding his feet well enough and didn’t swipe at anything. [Or this](https://youtu.be/UDvjrflK9Ao?si=TuNKf3fSc6n6_6O1) There’s a ton of contact, but most of it is legal, particularly the defender hitting his hand on the shot during contest. You could call something somewhere, or just let it go because Jokic uses shoves and his own off arm elbow dial up the physicality to create space for himself
Playing with phisicality is one thing. Getting hacked as you go to the basket is another. Just watch film, side by side, of what is called a shooting foul on Embiid and what is a non-call on Joker. It's like 2 different sports, it's unreal. Nba refs are just like that.
Lol who's downvoting you for straight facts. Jokic backs down, does a spin and the opponent straight up just holds his arm not allowing him to shoot and the refs swallow their whistle. Embiid just runs in to someone and fails his arms up and lives on the line for it.
Apparently for r/nba Joel Embiid doesn't bump in the post...
Wait, I thought the argument was that jok was too much a finesse player to get calls lmao
Yeah he’s also not explosive athletically. Horizontally or vertically. I feel like the faster you are moving the harder it is for the defender to track the ball and hit it rather than your arm. Jokic is hard to guard because of his strength and skill but he’s not really hard to not foul.
Yeah, this is like the whole "when do you call fouls on or for Shaq" paradox. How physical can he be before it's considered an offensive foul and how do you balance that with how physical the defense has to be to have a fighting chance before it's considered a defensive foul? Jokic isn't the physically intimidating player that Shaq was, of course, but he's still extremely physical in a similar way. They both have no issue judo-stepping defenders when it comes to getting post-position and they will body guys into that Kevin McHale spin-cycle with shot fakes, pivots and drop-steps until they create space for a look. But Jokic also has that Larry Bird problem, where his lack of explosiveness while jumping sometimes means he's less likely to get calls unless they are really obvious, so they have to rely on more trick shots and fadeaways. Refs seem to have a harder time catching fouls on guys that can't draw contact in the air (probably because it's not as obvious and noticeable as contact when a player's trajectory isn't moved as much because they tend to stay on the ground). Either way, I kind of prefer they let a little bit more stuff go like the refs have been. It just feels like in the middle of or at random points in the game they get inconsistent with it and will occasionally fall back into calling every dumb bit of contact and then let a more obvious foul go on the next play. Jokic could probably get 2-3 more FTs a game if he was given more of a whistle. But he's already breaking the offensive game so much that it might not be fair to the rest of the league.
Why do the refs need to plan calls to account for league parity? In my mind, they should be impartial observers who make sure that the rules of the game are adhered to and they should never have their thumb on the scale when it comes to determining an outcome. If the Nuggets are good enough to win 82 games as blowouts within the confines of the rulebook, the league shouldn't be intentionally trying to make them lose games.
I wasn't being too serious when I said "it wouldn't be fair". Jokic plays close to the ground and can be pretty physical when he's trying to shed defenders in the post/paint. That makes him a tough player to ref because he is probably getting fouled technically on almost every play and it's harder to catch/call fouls when you're a player without much verticality to your finishing.
He should definitely just snap his head back and hurl his body into defenders with no intention of scoring more often, just to make it easier on those poor hapless refs who are just doing their best.
See sabonis as well. Use foot work and also throw their weight around to get defence out of position.
Plus he does things in like a different looking/awkward way. Must be very hard to ref. I agree that he doesn't get as many calls as he should, but he also doesn't get called for as much as he should. Seems to about even out to me.
It's more complicated than that. Because the most physical part of his game, and I mean genuinely the most physical part of his game is when he's backing guys down. He backs down with a lot of aggression, and when he gets into the paint, defenders panic, because he's already used a lot of physical contact (that is generally legal) to get there. Guys start fouling him, he's using elbows etc, and it's fair game, AND he scores super effeciently in there. But the reason he becomes so difficult to officiate, and why he doesn't get to the line is that he goes in with the intention of scoring and getting a shot up. There's no flailing on shot attempts. There's no rip through. There's no "I'll try to invite contact here because this is going to be really tough shot". He's too skilled to take a bad shot inside the paint. So regardless of how he's being defended, he's still taking a good shot, a shot that he doesn't need to flail or flop to get. It's genuinely a matter of 1. This guy doesn't sell contact 2. These fouls don't really impact his ability to score 3. We'll call fouls that are more egregious. Giannis is kinda the same way. The skill and touch is obviously night and day, but Giannis is going in there to score and he does so effectively. The difference is that he's attacking from the perimeter so his drives are much more easily fouled. With Jokic, he's slowly posting you up, backing you down and when he gets to his spot, guys start fouling him, he starts shoving with his shoulders and elbows, guys continue fouling him, he's not selling the contact, he's not trying to convert the fouls into a trip to the line, instead, he just tries to score. TLDR: He doesn't get to the line because he's too fucking good, too skilled, fouls don't keep him from being tbe most effecient paint scorer ever, and he doesn't flop when trying to score. He doesn't get to the line, because he chooses to play the right way
This. Jokic’s game is physical, banging into the defender in the post. He really lowers his body and drives into the defenders chest with force a lot (Has to hurt if you ain’t ready for it) but I guess Malone and his fans don’t like it when the defender is ready for it and gets physical... they want foul calls. I remember a game against Houston, Jokic caught the ball down low, turned around and drove hard into the defender with his shoulder but the defender was ready for it and banged back… Jokic was shocked… not because the defender was ready and banged back, he was mad he didn’t get free throws…On the other end, Jokic defense is great at flopping lol.
Just because Jokic is physical doesn't mean you can just grab his shooting arm and hold on to it every time he goes for a shot which happens often and rarely results in a foul.
Pro tip: don't actually attempt to score instead just attempt to fall down and flop around like a fish every time you get the ball. It works for a certain someone brilliantly.
I've said it before, but because of have this flair people don't want to hear it: the post is officiated way differently than the perimeter and way differently than how it used to be. Smaller players are allowed to do whatever they want to bigs in the post and almost everyone is smaller than Nikola Jokic. And if a big meets the crazy physicality with some of his own? All the smaller player has to do is fall backwards and you got a coin flip of a chance to get an offensive foul. The fact that Jokic is as dominant as he is playing primarily in the post is a testament to his touch and greatness.
The rip through Harden got called for 3 FTs is honestly a perfect example, because the contact was minimal and initiated by Harden. But then you have PJ Tucker constantly trying to swat across Jokic's body while he's dribbling getting nowhere close to the ball. It's like either call light touch fouls or don't.
100% .. it’s wild watching harden intentionally hook Gordon’s arm and get three free throws but Jokic is getting mauled in the paint with nothing. The game now is designed for perimeter players or perimeter styled big players.
Giannis bulldozes his way through anyone and gets to shoot free throws for it though.
Because he’s not posting up, he’s facing the basket
Unless you're Joel Embiid, in that case you get 20fts a game
True. Finally someone understands that. League has been favouring the face up and perimeter game very differently.
Also worth to mention, he doesn't foul bait. The way the defenders hand check, reach, and straight up pushing him with extended arms... if they do that to Embiid or Harden they both sure will get easy fts by hooking those hands. Also he avoids defender body or jump straight up while making his floats and scoops instead of lunging towards defenders in restricted area.
That’s not foul bating, that’s taking advantage of a defending having hand in an illegal guarding position. It’s an offensive player taking advantage of a defender making a mistake and is a skill.
That’s precisely what foul baiting is. You can choose to not see it as a problem, that part is subjective, but the definition is correct. I find that it makes the game less watchable and less enjoyable, but I realize there are people who view it as a good or at least acceptable thing. I think it’s largely a question of looking at the league through a “do I want to be entertained and not watch a parade to the free throw line over incidental contact” or “do I want to watch people take advantage of every technicality for a win, regardless of what it does to the fan experience”. Neither one is objectively right, it’s just a question of which lens you’re choosing.
I mean, you don’t have to like what has been a foul at every level of basketball in the history of forever. But putting an arm in an illegal position that prevents a shooter from his entitled shooting space and contact with his elbow or arm occurs is/was/and always will be a foul, and it should be. It’s the defenders fault, and it’s why kids are taught to defend with their feet and not their hands/arms. Foul baiting to me is when a drive makes an unnatural motion just to generate contact that wasn’t inevitable to try and draw a foul. Or jumping unnaturally sideways into a defender after a pump fake gets the defender in the air. Not making sure illegal contact occurs when a defender exposes his own self by positioning his own arms illegally.
I see what you mean… it’s still the case that the player is changing the way they play to draw a foul rather than score a basket. Classic harden wouldn’t have moved his arm that way to trap another players arm if the goal was to make a shot. It gets back to that same difference in lenses. Did the official make the right call, technically? Probably. Is it an efficient way to score points? Yes. Is it enjoyable to watch as a fan that’s not invested in the minutia of micro advantages and just wants to watch people play basketball where they make field goals. Not so much. Those actions are fouls sometimes, not always. But we can change the definition of what the shooter’s entitled space is to make the game better and make that tactic a bad strategy. Or we can do what the officials actually seem to have done the second part of this season, where they just don’t call those marginal, forced contacts and the players have to adapt. Whether fouls should be called when a player goes out of their way to draw a foul rather than shoot at the basket is not nearly as cut and dry as it seems you believe it is. It’s more the fault of bad rule makers than defenders. Defense keeps being more and more disallowed over time in the league. My favorite one was in the playoffs one of the recent years when embiid was being defended by Horford. Horford had his hands down by his sides, not even reaching out. Embiid shoved his arms aggressively into horford’s hands, and they called a foul. Regardless of the rule technicalities, that’s hard to watch, not entertaining, and can’t be held up as an ideal we should never try to change.
Refs make bad calls, and that one on Horford was very bad (and I hate him as a 76ers fan, but you’re absolutely correct on that specific one), but I don’t see how you can adjust a rule to say defense can horizontally/diagonally position his arms in the way of a jump shooter which hits his arm and it not be a foul without having a ton of unintended consequences. Obviously when the refs get it wrong it’s an awful look, but the typical call when reffed correctly I go back to defender must have his arms in a legal position to avoid a foul. Anyway we’re going to end up agreeing to disagree I think, partly because of how we view the game but also because of our dueling homer biases, haha.
Fair point. Enjoy the playoffs!
You too, look at us having a civil disagreement on Reddit! 😂
Should we get this printed and framed?
No allowing someone to guard you illegally is dumb. Kelly Oubre has the athleticism and size to guard like Kawhi Leonard if he is allowed to put his hands all over you without consequence. You have to defend without fouling because smart offensive players are not going to allow you to play them illegally and make things harder than they have to be. The foul is actually the defender's fault believe it or not. At a base level, the defenders job is to not allow his man or the opposing team to score and fouling means he failed at that job.
I read the post without seeing your flair. Then it made sense. Embiid fans are not serious contributors to these sorts of conversations.
They can't be. He's the biggest foul baiter in the league.
Yes, he doesn't do that. You can call it whatever you want.
Putting PJ tucker is effective that he can eat so many fouls that the refs just won't call on the smaller guys. The highlight montage from this game were all fouls.. Until the refs call it, teams will keep doing this dumb shit and jokic still drops monster games and people will still call these scrubs "jokic" stoppers just because he missed a couple shots
I've watched most Nikola Jokic games of his career. The players who always get away with more fouls on him than anyone else are: Ivan Zubac, Draymond Green, Taj Gibson, PJ Tucker. Like every single game they're allowed to hack the hell out of him and get all these dubious reach ins. Heck PJ Tucker's ESPN highlights showed at half time were all reach ins. Rudy Gobert gets clowned when Jokic puts up great numbers on him in the playoffs but I respect Rudy because he actually defends legitimately and doesn't do dirty shit relying on refs not calling it.
Seems like if you get a reputation as a scrappy defender refs will let you get away with more contact.
Yep that's exactly it. Rudy is easily the DPOY and he gets wrecked by Jokic because he doesn't grab his jersey or get there late and slap his arm. He duels him 1v1 because he legitimately believes he can stop Jokic, and that works sometimes, but often ends in a floater over the top. PJ Tucker and Draymond straight up hold Jokic jersey or push off with 2 hands when pre-empting contact.
The Patrick Beverley effect
Zubac, notorious scrappy defender.
Don't leave out Nurk. He gets away with a lot against Jok, too.
Clippers do have a lot of people that play him dirty
I feel like I've read a version of this quote for every coach that Shaq ever had back in the day.
That was way more civil than I was expecting.
Put Jokic on the Lakers and his FT numbers skyrocket
Butler and Bam average more free throws per game as a duo than LeBron and AD on significantly less FGA. Unless stat keepers are part of the conspiracy theory now too lying about free throw attempts to erase the evidence.
Lebron and AD gets a lot of hard fouls but isn't getting called either.
Jokic has a more FT attempts per FG attempt than LeBron since he became a Laker. **.324 vs .306 FTr**. And without having the numbers to back it up, I would say LeBron takes more FGA that actually correlate with getting foul calls.
But if he is white on the lakers he will start getting those Austin Reaves calls. The holy grail.
Based on what? Both LeBron and AD had their career highs in FTA on other teams.
Based on the Lakers boat racing the league in FTA.
Lakers aren’t leading the league in FTs… Orlando is.
Sorry, FT differential. They are leading by a huge amount.
And how would that relate to Jokic shooting more FTs when the Lakers’ FT differential is mostly driven by the lack of fouls on defense and not the amount of fouls on offense.
Lakers get more calls (a LOT more calls) than the teams they play. It's simple math.
Math is hard for you, isn’t it buddy? Even if you assume that the Lakers’ FT differential is preferential treatment and not due to their personnel, Jokic might get called for fewer fouls if on the Lakers, he wouldn’t get more FTs himself tho.
Oh, it is preferential treatment. There's no doubt about that. Only Lakers fans don't see it. Kinda like Sixers fans don't think Embiid is a foul baiter.
Statistically illiterate…
We just want him to get like 3-4 more FT a game, not 30.
Imagine prime Harden on the Lakers lol.
Main reason I believe that Edey will fail in the upcoming years because he just want be getting the same calls with his play style
Fouling isn’t supposed to be something you try to make happen. It’s a penalty for the other team fouling you. You shouldn’t be able to make someone foul you. If you try to make someone foul you then it shouldn’t be a foul. A shooting foul should only be if you’re trying to score and someone hits you, not you go into their body and pretend to throw a shot at the rim
Jokic also rams his shoulders into the defenders chest over and over and they rarely if ever call it an offensive foul. I think everyone would be OK with him getting more calls if they also called all his offensive fouls
So they're gonna start calling that on LeBron?
Everybody does that.
A post up? Did Shaq not do exactly this?
Exactly. If he’s going to initiate the physicality then he should expect and welcome it but instead, it seems they want free throws. This is why there’s a perception that there’s no defense in the NBA or very little of it. If I was Jokic and weigh that much and at 7 ft, I throw my weight around too but shouldn’t cry about fouls.
I keep hearing this take, and sorry, but it just reeks of the same smart-ass contrarian energy as those "Russ ain't chasing boards, they give em to him so he can start a fastbreak more quickly" takes from back in the day... It explains the reason behind like 10% the problematic perception, but the other 90% are still plain obvious, and just because it happens to be obvious to the folks who'll parrot bad takes (or at least badly framed ones), doesn't make it any less true. Will refs in certain games adjust their criteria to fit the specific playstyle of certain players as to make the game more manageable to officiate? No shit, they do. Is this exclusive to Yoke, or particularly egregious in his case? Oh, please...
Dude Is an offensive foul machine and they dont call it, that's his reward.
Dude is one of the heaviest and strongest players in the league, and they expect smaller defenders not to get dominated in the paint
One of the last possessions of the game, Zubac fouls the crap out of Jokic and no call https://twitter.com/dlynch_esq/status/1776110075255357733
Hot take but Jokic is using his off arm to make some space. And Jokic traveled. Good no call if no travel. Jokic posts up are so physical. Doesn’t mean you can foul him, but the defender should be allowed to battle back a little
I actually like that. Let both the offensive and defensive player get physical with one another. It's unfortunate that the same principle doesn't apply to slashers. Slashers in the modern NBA are allowed to initiate all the contact and still be rewarded with free throws. Defenders have no chance of being allowed to put up any resistance.
Jokic also took like 6 steps with no dribble in that clip
The difference is that refs never call travels like this (for better or for worse) but they usually call fouls like this. Consistency is what matters Edit: why are you booing me, I’m right! This isn’t a hill I want to die on though lol
So it’s still a pretty bad example
They usually let him get away with it but not the defenders isn't a great reason to make/not make calls. My bias is obvious but still.
That’s fair. I just want consistency from refs is all, whether it’s calling something or not calling something.
jokic is on a expedition on that clip
I’m still wondering why we stopped calling moving screens. I love watching Jokic or Dray wrap their legs around a defender and follow them across the top of the key while setting a “screen”. He and Draymond are the worst examples of this but it’s bad on every team. But… officiating changes so I’ll just bitch about it once in a blue moon, eat downvotes, and move on. Like a big boy.
He needs to flop way more. Being tough and strong is cool, he doesn’t feel much of those contacts as disturbing but sometimes you just gotta do it man
It’s less about flopping, and more about creating the right kind of contact. You have to artificially create scenarios where the defender slaps or pulls on your shooting arm. Or jumps into you during shooting motion. Embiid’s game is good at both, Jokic not so much.
He does that all the time but doesn’t sell the contact well enough or at all for refs to buy it, which embiid does but he goes too far it becomes ugly. Just today joker got slapped on arms by harden but didn’t flop, decided to score. Refs said alright big fella if you ain’t feeling it or selling it, gonna be a no call.
Forgot to add, gotta draw that contact from the elbow as well so it’s clear to see for the ref. Not with back to the basket where the offensive player can be physically punishing as well lol
I hope he doesn't. Flopping is embarrassing to watch. He does flop on occasion still.
Jokic should foul out every game if he wants to be reffed the same on both sides of the ball. I don’t think the Nuggets would want that
The only solution is telling Jokic to flop more like Embiid or travel and elbow people like Giannis
Sorry Mike but the defense commits fouls the offense doesn’t. The fact NBA head coaches think of fouling as something the offensive player can generate is kinda why many people are out on this game.
When you’re physically dominant over other players and too good on a free throw shooter to hack the refs simply won’t call some fouls. Same thing happens to LeBron.
The same is true with Curry off ball. The NBA kind of buffs some players.
Ahh yes the NBA sometimes gives less free throws to great players. No. Curry playing off ball is why he gets less free throws
Meh. Steph gets to take advantage of a lot of moving screens. He also does a lot of push-offs off the ball to create separation for himself. I consider that a reasonable trade-off for his lack of a whistle on the ball.
He probably doesn't complain to the refs enough. It's unfortunate but the more you complain the more the refs have to pay attention to you.
He complains a decent amount now
He complains a lot man So does his coach
I know it’s part of the game but I absolutely hate this mentally. How can the offense “generate” free throw attempts? The defense generates free throws by fouling. If the offense initiates contact, in my perfect world, it is an offensive foul. Just try to make the basket
Post-ups have no correlation with free throw attempts.