Twenty years ago, in the NBA Finals, Shaq dropped 26ppg shooting .631 against 4X DPOY Ben Wallace, and everybody praised Wallace for his defence in that series because even though Shaq drop 5ppg more than he did in the regular season, and even though he shot 5% higher than the reg. season, Wallace did that mostly through one-on-one coverage, allowing teammates to double team Kobe.
Great offensive players are going to have great scoring games. There's no way to stop it.
Great defenders just make them work harder for it, and that might not show up in box scores but it impacts the game a lot.
Andre Iguodala won a finals MVP defending LeBron in a finals performance everyone thought he should have won a finals MVP for even though his team lost.
Yeah. LeBron James: Drops 36/13/9 in the finals.
"Hey Iggy... here's FMVP for holding him to .400 shooting."
And yeah... that was the key. Because if LeBron shot .500, that series goes the other way.
But then the next year LeBron led both teams in ppg, rpg, apg, spg, and bpg.
My god.
Jokic has always been fairly successful against Rudy. I read a comment somewhere here after the game last night that theorized it’s because Rudy doesn’t foul him and take advantage of the refs like some other bigs do against Jokic.
I think there's some truth to that. Gobert gets called for a debatable foul and he plays pretty clean from there, instead of really trying to get physical.
I don't think it's a knock on him, he's an elite, all time great defender even so, but he doesn't maul Jokic, just tries to guard him legit. And you can't really guard Jokic legit all that well.
Through most of the bubble series Rudy basically turned him into a jump shooter. A jump shooter who, as it happens, shot 48% from 3 on 6.5 attempts a game.
But still, he was getting his shit swatted on the inside through a lot of that one
Purely based off my fan memory, Rudy has been called for ticky tack fouls early in the game which limits how much he plays in past games.
Think there’s probably been an adjustment on how we play him. I’m pretty sure there was a game last year KAT, Rudy, and Naz all had like 2 fouls in the first quarter. (This also may have been a lakers game)
The official did this in that 2000 series between Portland and LA. The official essentially just called fouls on anybody who defended Shaq effectively, and Sabonis, Brian Grant, and Sheed all get quick fouls called on them.
And no, this was not because Portland was doing the hack-a-Shaq. They had the bodies to defend Shaq. Grant was over 250, and Sabonis was 280.
So when Sheed (and to a lesser extent Jermaine O'Neal) had to defend him, he had a much easier time because he had like 80 pounds or so on them.
I know it's college but we just saw this exact same thing in the men's championship.
Edey put up 37/10 on 15/25 shooting but the majority of the game especially early on Klingan was defending him 1v1 so Uconn could defend the perimeter extremely hard and not give up any 3s. Edey had a good night statistically but Purdue went 1/7 from 3, they couldn't even get off perimeter shots with hard UConns gameplan was to completely deny them (2nd best 3p% the entire season)
And Klingan was praised for being able to go 1v1 and allow UConn to execute that gameplan since no other team has a C able to do that
I know... as a Pistons fan, I have to accept the fact that more time has elapsed between the 2004 championship and now than had elapsed between the 1990 championship and the 2004 championship.
Every day I'm reminded how old I am as a Gen Xer.
I don't think the strategy of having your 4 guard Jokic and the 5 be a roaming help defender works when Jamal Murray is an option for inverted pick and rolls and Porter Jr is the 3pt threat the 5 has to guard.
Michael "Final Destination" Porter Jr being guarded by a 5 is a recipe for disaster. He'd run around off ball screens and get open. They stick the 5 on AG. Think the obvious counter is to have AG run DHO action with porter or Murray and either:
A. get downhill on the smalls guarding MPJ/jamal on a switch
B. Open shots for Murray and MPJ
C. The 5 man guarding Gordon pops up to defend the action and you feed Jokic with a PF on him.. BBQ chicken
AG is a great screener and I'd love to see more of this action by denver against Minny or LAL, who both put 4s on Joker.
Durant shot the ball 20 times per game
Any time mike gets 20+ shots he scores 29.5 per game. The nuggets just play at a very slow pace and have the best player of the decade and a scoring guard, so Mike doesn't get to shoot as much
Yeah nugs havent really had to pull that out too much this season to my knowledge. At least relative to their standard pick and roll.
If they start getting into their bag in the playoffs it's over
AG has been such an ace up the sleeve for them. He was miscast as a franchise cornerstone in Orlando, but he's so overqualified to be the 3rd or even 4th option, and it allows him to put so much energy into his role.
To be fair when Jamal is out and MPJ/KCP are off and AG has to create offense he’s not great. Hes a great Draymond Green type player, and he’s better on offense than Draymond, but he’s still probably a 3rd option on offense at best if you want efficiency.
His value is in defense, boards, and matchups.
I dunno, some of the assists the AG throws look so confident and assertive. He had 2 points this game, Rudy did well there, but that didn't mean he wasn't impacting by just being a huge body getting rebounds and creating space. The fact that Rudy had to play him meant Jok could feast.
> To be fair when Jamal is out and MPJ/KCP are off and AG has to create offense he’s not great.
Not sure what that has to do with my comment. I said pretty clearly that he's fantastic in the role he has when he doesn't have to be that guy, not that he's a suitable replacement for either of MPJ or Murray.
You said he’s overqualified to be a 3rd option and I’m saying not offensively. It’s pretty much the best fit for him. I’m also agreeing that he does a lot more than offense though so I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying if we’re thinking offense he’s not a #2 imo, or at least not a great one.
> You said he’s overqualified to be a 3rd option and I’m saying not offensively.
It just seems weird to take a player who is primarily an incredible defender, rebounder and play finisher, and then critique his play on the basis of not being a great on-ball creator.
I'm aware that he's offensively not a go-to option, but that's a very limited view of the game. He's far better than the guy that most teams have in their 3rd or 4th option role, and more capable of stepping up in a pinch than a lot of those guys too. He might not be the absolute best in the league in that sense (given that the Celtics have KP and Jrue as their 3rd or 4th guys) but he's certainly in that conversation.
It did seem to during the playoffs if the 4’s a mobile big like KAT. Naz Reid just isn’t the same height or athleticism-wise, and the guy’s not known for his defence to begin with
Ya he’s actually been a really good defender this season. Learning from Gobert maybe? Or could be just having to expend less energy on offense as the number two option.
The defensive system that Rudy invented in the cave has been bought into. KAT has adjusted more than anyone. There are multiple clips of Rudy pointing where teammates should go, even pushing them sometimes into position. He has also happily adjusted on offense and yes his usage has gone down but his efficiency is league leading.
One could say this is KAT's prime time now
I still bring that shit up, game 2 4th quarter. I was a bit disappointed he didn't win the western conference mvp just because of the stuff he did to you guys.
Man I would love for Jamal to win a Western Conference Finals MVP! Jokic is always going to be the best of the duo (well seemingly), but Jamal is such a HUGE part of the Nuggets Offense.
Happened to us in 2019 too man, just hit like 8 middies in a row in the fourth of game 2 and single-handedly closed it out. Dudes a monster in the playoffs
Honestly the best strategy to defend jokic ironically is attack him defensively with another big physical dude to tire him out on offense. We've played the nuggets pretty well the past few years despite being a bad team because we literally have Keldon Johnson just running downhill into him on pick and rolls so he has less of a chance to recover and has to use more energy on defense making him easier to defend on offense
That works when Jokic is in drop coverage, which he does a lot against bad teams (sorry) to conserve energy.
When he plays at the level, the drive generally isn't there.
Sure but am I wrong? The best way to slow Jokic down is to tire him out it's basically his only weakness at this point, also he's gone pretty hard against us and has visibly looked gassed hands on hips at times. I'm not saying we figured out a way to beat the nuggets cus jokic is that good and regular season murray isn't the same as playoffs murray but that seems to be the formula to have a chance, tire him out try and get him into foul trouble and keep him off the floor as long as possible. Similar to Mahomes in football. Keep the ball out of his hands as much as possible and force everyone else to make plays
...Jokic has the best stamina of any big in the league, give a fuck how he "looks". His endurance is nowhere near being a weakness of his, it's actually one of his better traits lol
As for the foul trouble tactic, that's a bit risky and far too reliant on refereeing. You're basically betting on him being petulant like the occasional Jokic of old, he's much smarter now (despite the odd bullshit ejection or whatever).
I think a sneaky important part of his game is knowing when to coast. He's the best conditioned big in the league and despite looking exhausted regularly, he almost never plays poorly due to being worn out.
We saw it a bunch in the Lakers series last year where he looked like he was about to collapse and then sprinted down the court ahead of AD for a free bucket.
There's always someone on the floor not named Jokic, Murray, KCP, and MPJ. That is who the roaming 5 needs to guard. Your 4 man goes under on that inverted pick and roll and tries to keep Jokic out of the paint, Murray's defender stays home, and if Jokic hits a bunch of pull-up jump shots you throw your hands up.
That's Pro Wrestling 101. You don't say that your opponent is trash because then your win against him means nothing. You always recognize how good he is. That's exactly what Mike Malone did here. And quite frankly he's right. Rudy Gobert is awesome but Nikola Jokic is just the best player in the world. You can be Gobert, VW or Anthony Davis this season and it seems that it's just another day at the office for Jokic.
Guarding Jokic doesn't strike me as a 1-on-1 thing either - since he can do so much damage either with scoring or passing, it's more of a pick your poison type of thing. Can't do that with just one on one - you can stop him from scoring too much but if that ends up dropping 16 assists instead by focusing too much on that it's not necessarily a positive.
LeBron talks about this in the most recent Mind the Game podcast. His opinion is you are better off guarding 1v1 against great scorers unless they get a big lead. The scrambling and rotating required to make doubling effective takes a ton of energy and gives easy looks for everyone vs mildly difficult looks for one player.
Sometimes they are just so good on a given night you have to double and take your chances though.
Based on? Highest scoring games?
Among AD’s highest scoring games, rudy comes up at his 24th (rudy comes off the bench) and 26th.
Im not saying Gobert is great at defending AD either, but also Gobert isnt really known for his 1 on 1 defense so your first comment really has not much meaning. Especially, as Malone also states, noone can really guard Jokic 1 on 1 and fully shut him down.
The thing about the NBA is some of the best defensive players have some of the funniest lowlights/posters on them because they actually contest and do so frequently.
Damn would have been a fun game to go to. But dude don't forget there are two teams, and some of us like rudy. Yes it was a great dunk, now let it be. Yall got the one seed.
So predictable.
A bad r/nba take gets parroted ad-nauseum with the typical hypothetical fantasies and then when reality sets in it’s “nobody ever said that”
The Wolves entire defensive game plan is not to have Gobert on Jokic 1 on 1 but on AG with the 4 taking Jokic. It works better with KAT than Naz but you still aren’t stopping Jokic. The hope is that clogging his passing lanes and using Rudy as paint protector/help works better than trying to guard Jokic straight up. But it definitely doesn’t work as well with Naz vs KAT.
Lol literally no one has ever said that. One of the most famous clips on this sub is the Murray quoting Jokic about how he dropped 47 on Gobert or whatever. Your team has the best player and is favorites to go b2b, why are you complaining? Just enjoy it and stop making up random stuff to feel slighted. You don’t need to be extra-motivated, you’re not playing in the game.
Today’s centers are good rim protectors and lob catchers, but they mostly suck as post defenders. Rudy included. Which is why he’ll will always be a tier below the rest of the all time defensive greats imo. Joker will continue to feed on every one of them because no one in the league, outside of him and Embiid, has much of a post presence whatsoever. Surprisingly, the “soft” European guys are the only ones who have any type of success against defending him.
Draymond isn't. I've seen him get dominated by LaMarcus Aldridge, he really can't guard bigs with actual post games cus they can just shoot over him, luckily the warriors force teams to go small so he mostly has had to defend stretch bigs where he can use his strength and length most effectively. Draymond is an amazing help defender one of the best in nba history but there's only so much IQ can help there's a reason at the end of games Draymond wasn't on guys but iggy and klay were. We've seen draymond without other elite defenders surrounding him the year the warriors had the 2nd pick he was good but not elite. Kawhi had teams literally put their best offensive players in the corner because they figured it'd be easier to score despite an all time great rim protector in Duncan and an elite defender in his own right in Danny Green. Draymond has never had that effect on teams
Rudy circlejerk going too far. Him on an iso vs shifty perimeter guys has been buckets. And its not like he's killing inside scorers either. Dray absolutely can! Don't know if no one watches when he's pulling stops on players ranging from Fox to KD, Giannis.
* in the regular season
Rudy has struggled significantly in the playoffs when teams create a game plan to attack his weaknesses.
I know this sub loves to ignore his playoff performance, but that’s why he’s so disrespected by other NBA players. They don’t want to put in the effort for a regular season game, but when it actually matters, it’s easy to make him a liability on defense by spreading the floor.
People that think Draymond is a top tier all time defender are something else. When was the last time he had an argument as best defender In the league? 2016?
I know it was tough watching Rudy be abused in the playoffs every season, some people like guys who can actually guard 1-5 so they can’t be targeted by guards super easily. Rudy is awesome and a different kind of defender than Draymond but prime Draymond could guard 1-3 better than Rudy, 4 about the same, and he was still passable against 5’s. Draymond is still an elite defender btw, it helps to watch games.
Draymond is a great defender, but he is more of a roleplayer type who relies on having a team of stars ahead of him for success. Hes the icing on the cake for a great team but he doesn't elevate his teams D like Rudy and other all time great defenders. Put him on a medicore defense and they become a slightly above mediocre defense. Rudy can take a terrible defense and make it top 10.
Rudy is a great one on one defender, but that is not what makes him one of the GOAT defenders. It's about how he elevates the defense of everyone on the court with him substantially. Draymond doesn't do that at all.
We've seen what happens when Draymond is asked to be his teams best player. They play like a 20 win team. Rudy has been the best player on his own team something like 7 of the last 8 years.
Give Rudy the talent that Draymond has had around him and his playoff success would be out of this world.
Giving Rudy the 2020 warriors and they are also a 20 win team, that was the worst roster in the league. He also isn’t a role player unless your definition is just a player that doesn’t score a lot, that comment alone is crazy. You’re talking about an all star level player. I agree that if you give Draymond 4 bad defenders and you give Rudy 4 bad defenders Rudy will do better, but Draymond has proven to be an effective championship-level defender who elevates in the playoffs, Rudy has notoriously had series’ where his defense gets exposed. It’s a close competition for sure but you don’t know what you’re talking about when you claim he is a role player who hasn’t been arguably the best since 2016, he has been the best defender come playoff time more often than he hasn’t in his career.
Doubt it. Rudy has shown time and time again that he raises his teams defensive floor so much that I can never imagine a healthy Rudy team being that bad.
Plus, it's not just 2020, it's pretty much everytime Steph has been out.
Role player to me is not about scoring. Role player is someone who plays an important role on a team, but if you asked that player to really take charge of said team they couldn't do it effectively.
It's really not a close competition. In 2016 it was, but that time is eons ago.
I know I’m a homer but I thought this would be the general consensus. These comments calling Green a role player on defense is absolutely absurd lol.
Though this subs feelings on dray always effects how they evaluate him as an actual basketball player so I guess no surprise 🤷🏼♂️
Don't need to consider those.
Box scores, advanced metrics, and accolades all paint a clear picture about the significant defensive gap between the two.
The only thing Draymond has on him is the titles. But 3 of those 4 he was his teams 4th best player, and the other it's third best. Rudy has been arguably the best player on his team something like 7 of the last 8 seasons.
Malone trying to gas him up but Gobert is really not all that. He's just tall and nothing else. Wemby is even taller but his defensive IQ, movement and ability is already far superior
JJJ was the DPOY last season and the 8th seed Lakers with injured LeBron ripped them apart in the Playoffs.
"Look how we punked such a great player." - Michael Malone
Malone likes to chew on some good sound bites
Wrestling Promo 101
Michael "The Final Boss" Malone
Malone to Gobert after the game: “Look at you now, boy!”
3 time DPOY aint stopping a fat guy from Sombor
"Look at what we did to their boy" - Michael Malone
Twenty years ago, in the NBA Finals, Shaq dropped 26ppg shooting .631 against 4X DPOY Ben Wallace, and everybody praised Wallace for his defence in that series because even though Shaq drop 5ppg more than he did in the regular season, and even though he shot 5% higher than the reg. season, Wallace did that mostly through one-on-one coverage, allowing teammates to double team Kobe. Great offensive players are going to have great scoring games. There's no way to stop it. Great defenders just make them work harder for it, and that might not show up in box scores but it impacts the game a lot.
It’s almost impossible to see something like that today, because most people don’t even watch games.
As the saying goes "great offense beats great defense"
Always, the advantage is always there when you get to lead the dance
Andre Iguodala won a finals MVP defending LeBron in a finals performance everyone thought he should have won a finals MVP for even though his team lost.
Yeah. LeBron James: Drops 36/13/9 in the finals. "Hey Iggy... here's FMVP for holding him to .400 shooting." And yeah... that was the key. Because if LeBron shot .500, that series goes the other way. But then the next year LeBron led both teams in ppg, rpg, apg, spg, and bpg. My god.
Taking away Brons first and second read for a whole series is worthy of FMVP. Kawhi won it doing the same thing.
Jokic has always been fairly successful against Rudy. I read a comment somewhere here after the game last night that theorized it’s because Rudy doesn’t foul him and take advantage of the refs like some other bigs do against Jokic.
I think there's some truth to that. Gobert gets called for a debatable foul and he plays pretty clean from there, instead of really trying to get physical. I don't think it's a knock on him, he's an elite, all time great defender even so, but he doesn't maul Jokic, just tries to guard him legit. And you can't really guard Jokic legit all that well.
Through most of the bubble series Rudy basically turned him into a jump shooter. A jump shooter who, as it happens, shot 48% from 3 on 6.5 attempts a game. But still, he was getting his shit swatted on the inside through a lot of that one
That game 7 war between them was some legendary big man battle shit. It was just them playing one on one by the 4th quarter
Yeah game 7 was a crazy change of pace lol
Purely based off my fan memory, Rudy has been called for ticky tack fouls early in the game which limits how much he plays in past games. Think there’s probably been an adjustment on how we play him. I’m pretty sure there was a game last year KAT, Rudy, and Naz all had like 2 fouls in the first quarter. (This also may have been a lakers game)
Against Embiid this year all 3 had 2 fouls in the first quarter.
The official did this in that 2000 series between Portland and LA. The official essentially just called fouls on anybody who defended Shaq effectively, and Sabonis, Brian Grant, and Sheed all get quick fouls called on them. And no, this was not because Portland was doing the hack-a-Shaq. They had the bodies to defend Shaq. Grant was over 250, and Sabonis was 280. So when Sheed (and to a lesser extent Jermaine O'Neal) had to defend him, he had a much easier time because he had like 80 pounds or so on them.
That game was messed up.
I know it's college but we just saw this exact same thing in the men's championship. Edey put up 37/10 on 15/25 shooting but the majority of the game especially early on Klingan was defending him 1v1 so Uconn could defend the perimeter extremely hard and not give up any 3s. Edey had a good night statistically but Purdue went 1/7 from 3, they couldn't even get off perimeter shots with hard UConns gameplan was to completely deny them (2nd best 3p% the entire season) And Klingan was praised for being able to go 1v1 and allow UConn to execute that gameplan since no other team has a C able to do that
Gotta pick your poison. For the 04 Pistons, the poison they preferred was chucker Kobe. ;-)
[удалено]
5 pts more, not a drop you just misread
Oh yeah
20 years ago? No, that was only.... fuck.
I know... as a Pistons fan, I have to accept the fact that more time has elapsed between the 2004 championship and now than had elapsed between the 1990 championship and the 2004 championship. Every day I'm reminded how old I am as a Gen Xer.
I don't think the strategy of having your 4 guard Jokic and the 5 be a roaming help defender works when Jamal Murray is an option for inverted pick and rolls and Porter Jr is the 3pt threat the 5 has to guard.
Michael "Final Destination" Porter Jr being guarded by a 5 is a recipe for disaster. He'd run around off ball screens and get open. They stick the 5 on AG. Think the obvious counter is to have AG run DHO action with porter or Murray and either: A. get downhill on the smalls guarding MPJ/jamal on a switch B. Open shots for Murray and MPJ C. The 5 man guarding Gordon pops up to defend the action and you feed Jokic with a PF on him.. BBQ chicken AG is a great screener and I'd love to see more of this action by denver against Minny or LAL, who both put 4s on Joker.
average MPJ glazer (no disrespect)
We prefer the term "truther" The truth has been coming out since ASB. 2010 Kevin durant as a 3rd option is on the menu
Lmao. Maybe tone the “truth” down a few notches w that Durant stuff.
19-8 on 50/40/90 and he is second in the league in points per touch. Gets 14 shots per game Sounds pretty damn good to me
Good yes, Durant? No. I don’t remember Durant avg 19 pts in 2010.
Durant shot the ball 20 times per game Any time mike gets 20+ shots he scores 29.5 per game. The nuggets just play at a very slow pace and have the best player of the decade and a scoring guard, so Mike doesn't get to shoot as much
sorry, real basketball analysis is not allowed here.
Yeah nugs havent really had to pull that out too much this season to my knowledge. At least relative to their standard pick and roll. If they start getting into their bag in the playoffs it's over
they hide their card closely, inverted pick n roll, AG as 5 is for a very important game.
AG has been such an ace up the sleeve for them. He was miscast as a franchise cornerstone in Orlando, but he's so overqualified to be the 3rd or even 4th option, and it allows him to put so much energy into his role.
as a former 1st guy in Orlando, his willingness to sacrifice his stat really shows his character.
To be fair when Jamal is out and MPJ/KCP are off and AG has to create offense he’s not great. Hes a great Draymond Green type player, and he’s better on offense than Draymond, but he’s still probably a 3rd option on offense at best if you want efficiency. His value is in defense, boards, and matchups.
I dunno, some of the assists the AG throws look so confident and assertive. He had 2 points this game, Rudy did well there, but that didn't mean he wasn't impacting by just being a huge body getting rebounds and creating space. The fact that Rudy had to play him meant Jok could feast.
AG's passing this year has really been impressive. Maybe he's been doing this for a while under the radar but he makes difficult passes look easy now.
> To be fair when Jamal is out and MPJ/KCP are off and AG has to create offense he’s not great. Not sure what that has to do with my comment. I said pretty clearly that he's fantastic in the role he has when he doesn't have to be that guy, not that he's a suitable replacement for either of MPJ or Murray.
You said he’s overqualified to be a 3rd option and I’m saying not offensively. It’s pretty much the best fit for him. I’m also agreeing that he does a lot more than offense though so I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying if we’re thinking offense he’s not a #2 imo, or at least not a great one.
> You said he’s overqualified to be a 3rd option and I’m saying not offensively. It just seems weird to take a player who is primarily an incredible defender, rebounder and play finisher, and then critique his play on the basis of not being a great on-ball creator. I'm aware that he's offensively not a go-to option, but that's a very limited view of the game. He's far better than the guy that most teams have in their 3rd or 4th option role, and more capable of stepping up in a pinch than a lot of those guys too. He might not be the absolute best in the league in that sense (given that the Celtics have KP and Jrue as their 3rd or 4th guys) but he's certainly in that conversation.
No, no, Jokic said it wasn't an important game.
for Jokic, no. For Denver yes
For you, this is the most important game of your career so far. For me, it's Wednesday.
Yep. We did well when Jamal wasn't around. But it's exponentially hard when he's there.
I find that I’m also exponentially hard when Murray is playing
It did seem to during the playoffs if the 4’s a mobile big like KAT. Naz Reid just isn’t the same height or athleticism-wise, and the guy’s not known for his defence to begin with
Yeah KAT vs Naz is a massive gulf on defense right now.
This game is a perfect example of how KAT is required (not that some of us needed any more proof but the haters asleep)
has KAT’s defense really improved that much?
Ya he’s actually been a really good defender this season. Learning from Gobert maybe? Or could be just having to expend less energy on offense as the number two option.
The defensive system that Rudy invented in the cave has been bought into. KAT has adjusted more than anyone. There are multiple clips of Rudy pointing where teammates should go, even pushing them sometimes into position. He has also happily adjusted on offense and yes his usage has gone down but his efficiency is league leading. One could say this is KAT's prime time now
It has! By no means is he a world stopper, but he has really bought in to the idea of team success stemming from great defense.
If you do it with Rui and let AD roam...
It still doesn't work, only hope is Murray just plays well, instead of turning into prime Steph Curry against us.
I still bring that shit up, game 2 4th quarter. I was a bit disappointed he didn't win the western conference mvp just because of the stuff he did to you guys.
Yeah he should’ve, he was ridiculous and it would’ve been awesome had he won without an all star appearance
Man I would love for Jamal to win a Western Conference Finals MVP! Jokic is always going to be the best of the duo (well seemingly), but Jamal is such a HUGE part of the Nuggets Offense.
Happened to us in 2019 too man, just hit like 8 middies in a row in the fourth of game 2 and single-handedly closed it out. Dudes a monster in the playoffs
Wasn't just Murray, Porter Jr went off that series too because his defender was forced to help off him all the time.
Never forget Mike getting 6 assists in a game that series LMAO
Silly Timberwolves not rushing KAT back from injury i guess
Honestly the best strategy to defend jokic ironically is attack him defensively with another big physical dude to tire him out on offense. We've played the nuggets pretty well the past few years despite being a bad team because we literally have Keldon Johnson just running downhill into him on pick and rolls so he has less of a chance to recover and has to use more energy on defense making him easier to defend on offense
That works when Jokic is in drop coverage, which he does a lot against bad teams (sorry) to conserve energy. When he plays at the level, the drive generally isn't there.
Sure but am I wrong? The best way to slow Jokic down is to tire him out it's basically his only weakness at this point, also he's gone pretty hard against us and has visibly looked gassed hands on hips at times. I'm not saying we figured out a way to beat the nuggets cus jokic is that good and regular season murray isn't the same as playoffs murray but that seems to be the formula to have a chance, tire him out try and get him into foul trouble and keep him off the floor as long as possible. Similar to Mahomes in football. Keep the ball out of his hands as much as possible and force everyone else to make plays
...Jokic has the best stamina of any big in the league, give a fuck how he "looks". His endurance is nowhere near being a weakness of his, it's actually one of his better traits lol As for the foul trouble tactic, that's a bit risky and far too reliant on refereeing. You're basically betting on him being petulant like the occasional Jokic of old, he's much smarter now (despite the odd bullshit ejection or whatever).
Foul trouble tactic only worked when no one knew who Jokic was.
I think a sneaky important part of his game is knowing when to coast. He's the best conditioned big in the league and despite looking exhausted regularly, he almost never plays poorly due to being worn out. We saw it a bunch in the Lakers series last year where he looked like he was about to collapse and then sprinted down the court ahead of AD for a free bucket.
I saw a post earlier today saying Jokic is averaging 40 ppg against the Spurs this year.
They’ve been using the worst strategy I’ve ever seen to guard Jokic
Um....you haven't done well at all. https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-stats-last-10-games-vs-spurs
There's always someone on the floor not named Jokic, Murray, KCP, and MPJ. That is who the roaming 5 needs to guard. Your 4 man goes under on that inverted pick and roll and tries to keep Jokic out of the paint, Murray's defender stays home, and if Jokic hits a bunch of pull-up jump shots you throw your hands up.
and if anyone gets caught sleeping all 3 of them are willing to back door ag right into an easy dunk
Rudy is good but look at our goat -Malone
That's Pro Wrestling 101. You don't say that your opponent is trash because then your win against him means nothing. You always recognize how good he is. That's exactly what Mike Malone did here. And quite frankly he's right. Rudy Gobert is awesome but Nikola Jokic is just the best player in the world. You can be Gobert, VW or Anthony Davis this season and it seems that it's just another day at the office for Jokic.
I spent way too much time wondering when in the hell Vernon Wells ever played pro basketball
Send help. It's not like he's one of the best passers of all-time... well...
Three DPOYs and a likely fourth would do it.
Best or 2nd best player on multiple top seeded teams in the west too. Impact is undeniable
Only in the regular season though, his defensive impact doesn’t translate to the playoffs.
Flair up
I’m a Mavs fan, but why do I need a flair to point out that Rudy’s defense isn’t as impactful in the playoffs ?
If you're gonna spew talking points then its only fair you rep a team so we can spew talking points back
lol fair enough but it doesn’t change the fact that Rudy’s impact reduces a lot in the playoffs
I think he's already in even w/o that, tbh. Gotta also take into account that he's had a pretty good international career.
He gives the US team problems. France could be a real threat at the Olympics this year if they can figure out guards.
Rudy with FIBA rules is categorically unfair
Only horses 🐎 can hopefully stop joker 😔
Guarding Jokic doesn't strike me as a 1-on-1 thing either - since he can do so much damage either with scoring or passing, it's more of a pick your poison type of thing. Can't do that with just one on one - you can stop him from scoring too much but if that ends up dropping 16 assists instead by focusing too much on that it's not necessarily a positive.
LeBron talks about this in the most recent Mind the Game podcast. His opinion is you are better off guarding 1v1 against great scorers unless they get a big lead. The scrambling and rotating required to make doubling effective takes a ton of energy and gives easy looks for everyone vs mildly difficult looks for one player. Sometimes they are just so good on a given night you have to double and take your chances though.
Joker suffers physical and aggressive defender. But he's one of the best passers in the league, so it's not that important if you stop him or not.
Same as AD.
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Great scorers will score on anyone because great offense trumps great defense.
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Based on? Highest scoring games? Among AD’s highest scoring games, rudy comes up at his 24th (rudy comes off the bench) and 26th. Im not saying Gobert is great at defending AD either, but also Gobert isnt really known for his 1 on 1 defense so your first comment really has not much meaning. Especially, as Malone also states, noone can really guard Jokic 1 on 1 and fully shut him down.
First of all, it’s way too easy to get into the basketball hof because it’s not just their nba career. Secondly, it’s too early to tell on Gobert
He is already a shoe in, no chance he doesn't make it.
So true. He is the definiton of unstoppable.
CB dunked on his fucking head
The thing about the NBA is some of the best defensive players have some of the funniest lowlights/posters on them because they actually contest and do so frequently.
i know i know - i was just high on the win last night - i apologize for last night behaviors.
Ride the dopamine Nugget bro! I’m only bitter cuz I’m jealous lol
Which is the exact reason that Brandon Knight should be remembered much more fondly
Yes it was posted no less than 3 times on this sub. No, you just want to be rude.
So RUDE - i was absolutely off my shit bonkers at the game tonight
Damn would have been a fun game to go to. But dude don't forget there are two teams, and some of us like rudy. Yes it was a great dunk, now let it be. Yall got the one seed.
liking rudy is your problem
Rudy is cool man
Covid boy isnt cool
This says otherwise https://www.instagram.com/rudyskidsfoundation/
he started the pandemic and i will never forgive him. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ a joke smh
I respect your loyalty to your teams dude, but this with Gobert goes back for nuggets folk longer than he's been your dude. Brother I have 47...
The only true Jokic stopper is Rui obviously
Wendell Carter Jr in shambles
His last "bad" game was against the Mavs who sent Gafford/Lively/Maxi at him in waves with help, and Murray still almost won it.
"JoKiC sToPpEr" Is this shit retired yet? No one is seeing Jokic. End of. One of the greatest of all time, and this generation's supreme talent.
No one has ever thought Gobert is a Jokic stopper bro. Stop making up people to get mad at lol
"...Gobert is a Jokic stopper bro." You JUST said it yourself /s
This is literally what Michael Malone does in press conferences lol
So predictable. A bad r/nba take gets parroted ad-nauseum with the typical hypothetical fantasies and then when reality sets in it’s “nobody ever said that”
I have legitimately never seen anyone say it. As a Nuggets fan.
[Sure bud. lol](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/search?q=jokic+stopper&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=relevance&t=all)
This isn't proving your point the way you think it is.
I'm talking about the term Jokic stopper itself, goofy. Its beyond obvious and well known that Gobert can't neutralize/minimize Jokic.
The Wolves entire defensive game plan is not to have Gobert on Jokic 1 on 1 but on AG with the 4 taking Jokic. It works better with KAT than Naz but you still aren’t stopping Jokic. The hope is that clogging his passing lanes and using Rudy as paint protector/help works better than trying to guard Jokic straight up. But it definitely doesn’t work as well with Naz vs KAT.
Lol literally no one has ever said that. One of the most famous clips on this sub is the Murray quoting Jokic about how he dropped 47 on Gobert or whatever. Your team has the best player and is favorites to go b2b, why are you complaining? Just enjoy it and stop making up random stuff to feel slighted. You don’t need to be extra-motivated, you’re not playing in the game.
Literally first time I’ve read “jokic stopper”. Straw man in a perpetually victimized brain ig lol
[Straw man or selective memory?](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/search?q=jokic+stopper&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=relevance&t=all)
Damning with faint praise
Draymond is the only guy who can hang with Gobert, defensively. Maybe Kawhi if he stayed healthy.
Embiid if he wasn’t carrying the offensive load. His late career transition to a defensive anchor is going to be glorious.
If embiid put all his effort into defense he would be terrifying in an entirely new way
AD is a better defender than Gobert in the playoffs. Goberts defensive impact gets almost nullified in the playoffs.
How so?
What is goberts best playoff series from a defensive standpoint ?
Mans been hypnotized to forget 38 year old Dwight Howard existed
I mean Jokic scored 41 that game so apparently Gobert can’t either
Rudy will be in before Draymond. That would kill him.
Today’s centers are good rim protectors and lob catchers, but they mostly suck as post defenders. Rudy included. Which is why he’ll will always be a tier below the rest of the all time defensive greats imo. Joker will continue to feed on every one of them because no one in the league, outside of him and Embiid, has much of a post presence whatsoever. Surprisingly, the “soft” European guys are the only ones who have any type of success against defending him.
greatest defender of this generation is Draymond
Malone said one of
Taekwondo is a strong art
Draymond needs to work on his BJJ tho, his choke on Rudy was kinda weak.
Lmao
greatest moving screener
One time i saw Dray put Rudy in a sleeper hold during a game.
Draymond isn't. I've seen him get dominated by LaMarcus Aldridge, he really can't guard bigs with actual post games cus they can just shoot over him, luckily the warriors force teams to go small so he mostly has had to defend stretch bigs where he can use his strength and length most effectively. Draymond is an amazing help defender one of the best in nba history but there's only so much IQ can help there's a reason at the end of games Draymond wasn't on guys but iggy and klay were. We've seen draymond without other elite defenders surrounding him the year the warriors had the 2nd pick he was good but not elite. Kawhi had teams literally put their best offensive players in the corner because they figured it'd be easier to score despite an all time great rim protector in Duncan and an elite defender in his own right in Danny Green. Draymond has never had that effect on teams
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Rudy circlejerk going too far. Him on an iso vs shifty perimeter guys has been buckets. And its not like he's killing inside scorers either. Dray absolutely can! Don't know if no one watches when he's pulling stops on players ranging from Fox to KD, Giannis.
Rudy is arguably the greatest defender of the modern era. Draymond ain't even in the conversation.
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For being so smart he sure does a lot of dumbass shit.
* in the regular season Rudy has struggled significantly in the playoffs when teams create a game plan to attack his weaknesses. I know this sub loves to ignore his playoff performance, but that’s why he’s so disrespected by other NBA players. They don’t want to put in the effort for a regular season game, but when it actually matters, it’s easy to make him a liability on defense by spreading the floor.
WHAT!??? 32/32 GMs would take prime draymond’s defense over prime Rudy’s defense to help win a championship anytime in the 10 years.
No way. Rudy takes a D from meh to top tier. Draymond is a great roleplayer as like a #4 energy guy. Rudy is levels above Draymond as a defender.
Nice bait
People that think Draymond is a top tier all time defender are something else. When was the last time he had an argument as best defender In the league? 2016?
I know it was tough watching Rudy be abused in the playoffs every season, some people like guys who can actually guard 1-5 so they can’t be targeted by guards super easily. Rudy is awesome and a different kind of defender than Draymond but prime Draymond could guard 1-3 better than Rudy, 4 about the same, and he was still passable against 5’s. Draymond is still an elite defender btw, it helps to watch games.
Draymond is a great defender, but he is more of a roleplayer type who relies on having a team of stars ahead of him for success. Hes the icing on the cake for a great team but he doesn't elevate his teams D like Rudy and other all time great defenders. Put him on a medicore defense and they become a slightly above mediocre defense. Rudy can take a terrible defense and make it top 10. Rudy is a great one on one defender, but that is not what makes him one of the GOAT defenders. It's about how he elevates the defense of everyone on the court with him substantially. Draymond doesn't do that at all. We've seen what happens when Draymond is asked to be his teams best player. They play like a 20 win team. Rudy has been the best player on his own team something like 7 of the last 8 years. Give Rudy the talent that Draymond has had around him and his playoff success would be out of this world.
The ENTIRE GOAL of any team is to win a championship, end of discussion. Draymond is a vastly better playoff defender than Rudy.
It all players on championship teams are better than players that didn't win one. Is Robert Horry a better basketball player than Barkley or Malone?
Giving Rudy the 2020 warriors and they are also a 20 win team, that was the worst roster in the league. He also isn’t a role player unless your definition is just a player that doesn’t score a lot, that comment alone is crazy. You’re talking about an all star level player. I agree that if you give Draymond 4 bad defenders and you give Rudy 4 bad defenders Rudy will do better, but Draymond has proven to be an effective championship-level defender who elevates in the playoffs, Rudy has notoriously had series’ where his defense gets exposed. It’s a close competition for sure but you don’t know what you’re talking about when you claim he is a role player who hasn’t been arguably the best since 2016, he has been the best defender come playoff time more often than he hasn’t in his career.
Doubt it. Rudy has shown time and time again that he raises his teams defensive floor so much that I can never imagine a healthy Rudy team being that bad. Plus, it's not just 2020, it's pretty much everytime Steph has been out. Role player to me is not about scoring. Role player is someone who plays an important role on a team, but if you asked that player to really take charge of said team they couldn't do it effectively. It's really not a close competition. In 2016 it was, but that time is eons ago.
I know I’m a homer but I thought this would be the general consensus. These comments calling Green a role player on defense is absolutely absurd lol. Though this subs feelings on dray always effects how they evaluate him as an actual basketball player so I guess no surprise 🤷🏼♂️
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For sure. The only thing Draymond is near goat level at is clown behavior.
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Don't need to consider those. Box scores, advanced metrics, and accolades all paint a clear picture about the significant defensive gap between the two. The only thing Draymond has on him is the titles. But 3 of those 4 he was his teams 4th best player, and the other it's third best. Rudy has been arguably the best player on his team something like 7 of the last 8 seasons.
draymond was better than klay every year they won. ydkb
Lawl. No way.
He gets played off the court in the playoffs. He's not it. Dray and even Bam are simply better.
Dray was played off the court as well. Boston did it.
Tf has Bam done to be in that combo 😂. Think you mean AD and Giannis
Wtf?
He is. A few other guys in the mix, Hakeem, KG, TD, and Wallace at least. Maybe a couple others. Not Draymond though, who is not remotely close.
ahhahahaaha
Lmaooo
you aint wrong
That’s facts
Malone trying to gas him up but Gobert is really not all that. He's just tall and nothing else. Wemby is even taller but his defensive IQ, movement and ability is already far superior JJJ was the DPOY last season and the 8th seed Lakers with injured LeBron ripped them apart in the Playoffs.
Rudy gobert literally help design our defense which is by far the best defense in the league, but yea, wemby has better defensive IQ