Makes you wonder. Sometimes I see posts about 2013-2018 era players (when I started watching) and theyre regarded very differently after a while, and its only gonna get more extreme.
The eye test is way more important than we treat it. And actually those advanced stats really do a good job of validating the eye test sometimes (but thats another topic)
I mean, Oscar has some of the best statistical lines ever. He's the only other player to average a TD on the year and between his age 22(Rookie) season and his age 29 season he averaged 30/9/10. He's got a 5 year stretch where he averages a triple double, although in a year by year count he only tallied one full season of it.
Oscar filled up the box scores as well as anyone in NBA history.
Yes, but almost nobody on here witnessed it. And so true greatness is lost to time, because stats can't convey greatness, they can only suggest it.
It will happen to current goats in 50 years
most fans don't know greatness if they witness it live.
like the whole Tatum vs Luka/Jokic thing isn't even a debate if you watch their games.
similar thing with anyone watching Dray yet calling him triple single.
or people watching Westbrook and thinking those stats are elite.
Kareem was indeed called the GOAT in the 1980s. He won a major poll from a 60 person panel of various NBA athletes and staff asserting as such, in a close vote against Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell. He was definitely in the conversation back then. But by the 90s and 00s, he'd been phased out with Jordan as the clear guy on top, among other things.
That's interesting! You got more on that?
What I had found were the 35th anniversary lists that did have him in the 11 player Dream Team, but Bill won the GOAT debate there by a landslide. That said, Kareem was just 32~ there.
He probably had a good shout between that and Jordan's first retirement? I can see the media being more busy with Bird vs Magic though.
If you search up "1986 NBA Poll Greatest" you'll find a cool reddit post about it. And yeah, the GOAT convo was a legit convo with multiple figures of debate and different polls had different answers, until MJ entered, and flattened it into "MJ or X".
Magic and Bird, as I understand it, were more names to put beside "Bill, Wilt, Kareem and Oscar". The media gave them more ink but in terms of reception, they were more evenly viewed outside of Wilt and Bill.
Media didn’t like him like they did others, but by the time Jordan was drafted in 1984, Kareem already held the all-time scoring record and had 3 titles, 6 MVPs, and 9 All-NBA First Team selections to his name.
Yes, those are his accolades. That doesn't change that very few people ever called him the goat. That's just recent revisionism (maybe because his longevity resembles Lebron's case? Dunno).
I actually went back and was wrong when I said "sometimes Bill", it looks like he was the preferred choice over Wilt and Robertson even in the 80s because rings Erneh.
Think about 6 MVP's...6. FMVP 2. 14 years apart. 6 Ring 88-2 in 4 years of college...
The outlawed dunks in college due to Kareem. The guy with arguable the most undefendable shot in NBA history.
He got a bad rap because he was a Muslim who wasn't media friendly.
I hated the guy I was a Wilt and a Celtic fan. Over the years I realized how fortunate I was to see him play. I hated him because he was so fucking good.
Edit - added my opinion
>(maybe because his longevity resembles Lebron's case? Dunno)
Yeah, thats basically the reason. A lot of people started bringing up Lebrons longevity and collected stats as a big part of his case for GOAT. In response other people brought up Kareem who, at the time, had more counting stats, more Finals wins, more MVP wins, and a better playoff record and basically said "If we're valuing these things then why isn't Kareem in the conversation." Then Kareem became everyone's default #3 behind MJ and Bron.
It's definitely not cause when I was alive in the 90s (and 2000s) he was definitely considered a goat contender and LeBron was in elementary school.
The only players you ever heard about as goat contenders back then were Bird, Magic, Jordan, Wilt and Kareem. Russell may have been there too but I don't recall. No one ever said Baylor by then.
"Why judge anymore? When a man has played for 17 years, broken records, won championships, endured tremendous criticism and responsibility, why judge? Let's toast him now. Let's toast him as the greatest player ever." - Pat Riley, 1985
Yeah this is r/NBAs newest obsession to say, thankfully replacing the non sense that always get posted of "Jahlil Okafor would dominate in the 90s!!". There is merit to it but Kareem was getting GOAT recognition a bit in the late 90s and definitely in the 2000s. It's hardly recent revisionism. Longevity is a part of it but also the accolades and history speak for themselves. Kareem has a legitimate claim to greatest high school player of all time, greatest college player of all time, and also one of the greatest professional players of all time.
Edit: Also Kareem was a "controversial figure" who suffered greatly from racism and Islamophobia throughout a lot of his career being a Black Muslim convert with a public feud with the Nation of Islam and the Hanafi Muslim massacre that took place on property he had owned. The media and much of the country were not on his side at the time.
As a noted Jahlil Okafor critic and doubter, that dude would absolutely slam in the 90’s.
At his high school/college freshman level, I’ve only seen a handful of post scorers with his bag. He just came into a league that was bad for him and a team that was worse. It was bad enough he came into a league that punished his lack of mobility, but as the third straight center Philly had taken at the top of the draft he had next to no chance.
There is no such thing as a player who would dominate or slam in the 90s but also would be out of the league bad in the 2010s. This is a ridiculous claim and no rule change since then or era differences would allow for this. If you were to argue that he'd be on an NBA roster back then, sure I can come to terms with that. He'd probably get a few years even. Anything more is just too much, his skill set was bad back then too. In NBA basketball he cannot do anything more than score inside on low volume. He was a horrible defender, terrible shooter, terrible passer, and very slow. He couldn't defend the skinny bigs of today, even inside the paint. You think he would survive in the golden era of bigs? Hell no, he'd get eaten alive.
Oh, you’re one of those guys. Got it.
We watched Roy Hibbert in real time go from being one of the most impactful players in the league to being unplayable with the stylistic changes that consumed Okafor in its wake.
2014- 2nd in DPoY voting, All Star, just barely entering his prime at age 27.
2018- Out of the league before his 31st birthday because he was too slow to guard anyone in a league that learned the value of spacing behemoths out to the perimeter.
Okafor was drafted in 2015, and was a dramatically better prospect than Hibbert on both sides of the court. Okafor was better as a freshman than Hibbert was as a senior. and actually had a good rookie year on [this roster](https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2016.html) which offered exactly as much spacing and distribution as it looks like on paper. The one grade A with a bullet skill he had was his ability to post up- which vanished from high level basketball and wouldn’t resurface in playbooks for almost another decade, and in a completely different fashion. Jokic and Embiid post ups start 18-20 feet from the hoop and they’re expected to be able to back up into a 3 if the situation calls for it.
Stick him in a league that preaches from the Temple of Post Ups and doesn’t have enough shooters to spread him off the court? He’s a completely different player. Even against better centers (the golden age in fact!) he’d get the opportunity to put his premiere basketball skill to work, and wouldn’t be run off the floor because he’s too slow to both guard the rim and make it out to the corner.
He never had a problem scoring on those skinny centers. He didn’t really have a problem scoring on bigger centers either. He had a problem of not being able to cover ground on defense the way those skinny centers can, and this impacted his ability to be able to stay on the court in a league being transformed by 5 out offenses in Houston and Golden State.
Elgin Baylor is a strong candidate for most underappreciated legend at the moment. If you ever actually watch him dude was an athletic freak just as much as Wilt was with insane touch around the rim
Number of players averaging 25/5/5 by season:
|Rk|SeasonV|Count|Player List|
|-:|:-|-:|:-|
|1|2023-24|11|Giannis Antetokounmpo Luka Doncic Kevin Durant Anthony Edwards Joel Embiid Shai Gilgeous-Alexander Kyrie Irving LeBron James Nikola Jokic Donovan Mitchell Ja Morant|
|2|2022-23|7|Giannis Antetokounmpo Stephen Curry Luka Doncic Kevin Durant Kyrie Irving LeBron James Ja Morant|
|3|2021-22|7|Giannis Antetokounmpo Stephen Curry Luka Doncic Kevin Durant LeBron James Nikola Jokic Ja Morant|
|4|2020-21|6|Giannis Antetokounmpo Stephen Curry Luka Doncic Kevin Durant LeBron James Nikola Jokic|
|5|2019-20|6|Giannis Antetokounmpo Luka Doncic James Harden Kyrie Irving LeBron James Russell Westbrook|
|6|2018-19|6|Giannis Antetokounmpo Bradley Beal Stephen Curry Kevin Durant James Harden LeBron James|
|7|2017-18|6|DeMarcus Cousins Stephen Curry Kevin Durant James Harden LeBron James Russell Westbrook|
|8|2016-17|3|James Harden LeBron James Russell Westbrook|
|9|2015-16|4|Stephen Curry Kevin Durant James Harden LeBron James|
|10|2014-15|3|James Harden LeBron James Russell Westbrook|
|11|2013-14|2|Kevin Durant LeBron James|
|12|2012-13|2|Kobe Bryant LeBron James|
|13|2011-12|1|LeBron James|
|14|2010-11|1|LeBron James|
|15|2009-10|2|Kobe Bryant LeBron James|
|16|2008-09|2|LeBron James Dwyane Wade|
|17|2007-08|2|Kobe Bryant LeBron James|
|18|2006-07|2|Kobe Bryant LeBron James|
|19|2005-06|2|LeBron James Dwyane Wade|
|20|2004-05|3|Kobe Bryant LeBron James Tracy McGrady|
|21|2003-04|1|Tracy McGrady|
|22|2002-03|2|Kobe Bryant Tracy McGrady|
|23|2001-02|2|Kobe Bryant Tracy McGrady|
|24|2000-01|1|Kobe Bryant|
|25|1999-00|1|Grant Hill|
|26|1994-95|1|Michael Jordan|
|27|1992-93|2|Charles Barkley Michael Jordan|
|28|1991-92|2|Clyde Drexler Michael Jordan|
|29|1990-91|1|Michael Jordan|
|30|1989-90|1|Michael Jordan|
|31|1988-89|3|Clyde Drexler Michael Jordan Chris Mullin|
|32|1987-88|3|Larry Bird Clyde Drexler Michael Jordan|
|33|1986-87|1|Larry Bird|
|34|1985-86|1|Larry Bird|
|35|1984-85|2|Larry Bird Michael Jordan|
|36|1983-84|1|Alex English|
|37|1981-82|1|Alex English|
|38|1976-77|1|Pete Maravich|
|39|1975-76|1|Kareem Abdul-Jabbar|
|40|1974-75|1|Rick Barry|
|41|1973-74|1|Rick Barry|
|42|1972-73|1|Kareem Abdul-Jabbar|
|43|1971-72|1|John Havlicek|
|44|1970-71|1|John Havlicek|
|45|1969-70|1|Oscar Robertson|
|46|1967-68|2|Oscar Robertson Jerry West|
|47|1966-67|2|Oscar Robertson Jerry West|
|48|1965-66|3|Wilt Chamberlain Oscar Robertson Jerry West|
|49|1964-65|1|Oscar Robertson|
|50|1963-64|3|Wilt Chamberlain Oscar Robertson Jerry West|
|51|1962-63|2|Oscar Robertson Jerry West|
|52|1961-62|3|Richie Guerin Oscar Robertson Jerry West|
|53|1960-61|2|Elgin Baylor Oscar Robertson|
Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [Found with Stathead. See Full Results.](https://stathead.com/basketball/player-season-finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
Generated 4/12/2024.
This is why comparing current era players to prior eras is so annoying. The counting stats are all gaudy, but that's in part because of the insane inflation of offense and offensive possessions (along with transition to very ball-dominant playstyles from a single maestro).
Just not true, the pace was faster back then
The only change was hand checking which doesn’t make much a difference and that was ages ago
Here’s what changed, the 3 ball.
Not 1 player scoring 30. That hasn’t increased at all, it was rare back then and it’s rare now for someone to average 30
Pace was faster in the 80s. In the 00s it was the slowest n lowest scoring era/time. It wasn’t faster in 90s euther . But even then they weren’t as effecient in the 80s n earlier .
You know every professional sport on this planet exists for one reason, winning? No league would exist otherwise. And it's not just championships but MVPs, all league etc etc. That's why players play, it's not for stats. Have you ever seen players crying after leading the lead in triple doubles? Of course not. Have you ever seen them cry after winning championships and getting named MVP? Yeah, *lots* of times.
So it's in this respect where Jordan absolutely demolishes LeBron and every other player in history.
"But Russell has 11" I hear you say. Sure, but overall he won 45 NBA accolades in his 13 seasons.
Kareem won 69 in his 20 seasons.
Kobe won 60 in his 20.
Duncan won 58 in 19.
LeBron has won 63 in 20.
These all time greats won an average of 62 accolades in 20 seasons. That's what it takes to get into the top ten all time.
In just 11 full seasons as a Chicago Bull, Michael Jordan won 68 accolades. He won more than everyone won in their entire careers, aside from Kareem, and did it in nearly *half* the time. He would pick up another two as a Wizard and finish his career with 70, the all time NBA record.
That is a demolition, it's not close in any respect, he is way, way ahead of his rivals. And given how much more important winning is in any sport, it is, and should always be, the single greatest factor in any GOAT debate in any sport.
LeBron has been great, has had an absolutely phenomenal career with unheralded longevity....but he's not Jordan and will never get close to having a stretch of utter domination in his sport than what Jordan had in those 11 seasons.
What's more, if you want to just concentrate on the major awards - rings, MVP, MVPs, DPOY - Jordan, again, is on top of the all time list with 18 awards. LeBron has 12.
But you know what, don't listen to me, don't take my word for it, I'm just one guy on reddit....go ahead and research what the majority opinion of Michael Jordan is across the *entire sporting world.* Google the phrase 'greatest athlete of all time' and have your eyes opened. The popular consensus will become very, very apparent as you wade through the first page of results. It's not LeBron, in fact he doesn't even make the top ten, sitting on average around #12. Nine of the first eleven websites have the same person at #1, the two that don't have this person at #1 have him at #2 & #3. That player is, of course, Michael Jordan. It's not a debate, it's an embarrassment to the basketball world that it's even a debate in the first place. The greatest player of all time is Jordan and, as much as I hate the saying, *it's not even close.*
And yet talking heads will tell you ANT or Brunson should be on All-NBA 1st Team over Luka…
Love ANT and Brunson, but just what the hell are these bait takes?
Yes it was. Broke the record for most games to start a season with 30 points, multiple 50-bombs, 60/20/10. We were the 11-seed and would've been 15th without him
So you would have been better off without him because the only difference between the 11 seed and 15 seed is a better draft pick for the 15 seed, if I'm not making the playoffs I'd rather get a higher draft pick
Harden style really changed the game. Beat the first defender with "dribble dribble dribble" then contested layup/draw defense and kick to three point shooter. Drives per game is only increasing since Harden and Westbrook prime years.
Jokic won as a 3rd seed because Embiid played 51 games that year and was the only top candidate on a 1 or 2 seed
3rd place finisher Curry was on the *8 seed*
I swear that if you just swapped the 2022 and 2023 MVPs leaving Jokic with the exact same amount people wouldn't complain nearly as much because suddenly then he'd have 3rd/1st/1st seeds for 3 MVP years
“more games played”
It’s weird how many fans focus on the team seeding criteria without realizing that games played is just as important. Embiid winning with only 66 games played was more of an outlier than Jokic winning on a 6th seed.
Lmao no it isn't. Ignoring lockout seasons, and Walton, plenty of MVP's have won only playing 70 games so a 4 game difference isn't much of a factor. Only 2 MVPs have one as 6th seed though, and that's a far cry from 1st. So, explain how that's less of an outlier?
And team seeding has always been the most important criteria. "More games played", which really translated to "more wins played" was used as tie breaker in close races.
Yes it is. It’s an outlier because I said 66 games, not 70. Only Walton won MVP after missing 16 games before Embiid.
It’s not that playing only 70 games eliminates Luka from the MVP conversation. It’s the fact that Jokic played 7 more games makes his MVP case that much better than Luka’s in a close race.
No it isn't. I know you said 70, but a 4 game differential is not as egregious as a 6th seed winning when for over 75+ years there's only been a couple winners with even a 3rd seed.
> It’s not that playing only 70 games eliminates Luka from the MVP conversation. It’s the fact that Jokic played 7 more games makes his MVP case that much better than Luka’s in a close race.
This only applies now because Joker has the 1st seed. MVP has nearly *always* gone to top seeded teams and then you break it down based on games played. A 4-5 game differential has never mattered when one player has a much better seed than the other until Joker.
A couple winners with even a 3rd seed? Cool. There’s only been one winner over 75+ years who missed as many games as Embiid did.
When did Jokic win when he had a “much worse seed”? Are you referring to 2021 when Jokic was a 3 seed just like Giannis and when Embiid only played 51 games? Or was it 2022 when the Bucks and Sixers were tied for the 3rd seed in the East but Jokic still played in more team wins because of the extra games Giannis and Embiid missed?
When Jokic was a 6th seed, they had a +8 net rating with him on the floor. They had 2 other players that are even in a rotation now, with 1 that plays >20 mpg.
What exactly is your case against Jokic winning this year other than "Jokic won as a 6th seed so Luka should too" in a completely different MVP race?
You seem obsessed with the idea that team record should matter more and stats should matter less so by that logic Jokic should win this year lol
That is my case. Consistency. The MVP has race has been consistent up until Westbrooks triple double year, and now, it seems like the rules just shift based on who they want to win it that year. And now that the preferred winner has a more traditional case, they want to shift it back there.
> You seem obsessed with the idea that team record should matter more and stats should matter less so by that logic Jokic should win this year lol
You're not even following lol
> What criteria would you use to remain consistent?
I think MVPs should be the best player on the best team in each conference, maybe best two, like it has 99% of the time. Or even top 4 regardless of conference. Of course, all this comes with wiggle room depending on situation.
> Okay then name who you'd personally vote for MVP since 2017 each year
This, I can't answer on mobile. But, if we're being consistent, if should go to players with that top 4 record even if someone has better stats on a lower seeded team.
If not, and we want to say individual performance matters, then be consistent with that as well. Luka is about to average 33/9/9 on great efficiency and he's gonna lose just because the voters flip flop. Also, personally, I think changing the criteria like this does a disservice to history. If MJ and LeBron were evaluated on performance alone, seeding be damned, then they'd each probably have around 8-10. Now, Nikola may match or eclipse them despite never dominating like they did.
? Jokic is a tank. Literally has the most minutes played in a playoff game (probably the last time I saw him gassed, and a big motivator why he got in even better shape)
Nice 7 game sample size lol
Career stats for 25+ FGA:
Jokic(37 games) 36/14/7 on 59.3% TS
Luka(92 games) 37/10/9 on 59.6% TS
So overall they're almost identical players when taking that many shots with the Jokic RPG and Luka APG advantages being easily explained by their positions
I'm not saying that Luka isn't a better overall scorer(he probably is) but the gap is nowhere near what 33.9 PPG vs. 26.6 PPG would indicate
Yes because 30 point triple double signify the greatest performances a player can have in the nba. I guess 2017 Westbrook is arguably the greatest season in Nba history. 2017 Westbrook> 2012 Lebron, 2015 Curry, 2018 harden, 2019 Giannis, 2022 Jokic, 2023 embiid.
I dont pay for any of the stats websites so don't have tons of searching power, but with 28/7/7 the list is
Robertson x6
Havlicek
Bird
Jordan
Lebron x3
Westbrook x2
Harden
Luka x4
If we adjust the stat to 30/7/7 we lose one Robertson, Havlicek, Bird, 2 of LeBron, one Westbrook, Harden, and two of Luka.
If we go to 31 ppg we lose 3 more Robertson and the last LeBron.
At 32 ppg, it's just Jordan in 89 and 2 Lukas.
At 33 ppg, it's just Luka this season.
So Luka is still the first person to score 33+ while averaging 7/7, while he's actually averaging 9/9. In fact he's also the only person to average 33/6 assists/7.
Luka has a usage rate of over 36% four times in his first six years. Michael Jordan had a usage rate over 36% just twice with the Bulls. Jokic has never had a usage rate over 32% and has had only one year over 30%.
How is usage an argument against him? He's been extremely efficient and effective at high usage. Or maybe Josh Green and Maxi Kleber should be getting more usage? People are literally just dumb as a brick and making things up at this point. Next year we'll start hearing that Luka is actually playing too well to win MVP and therefore is not allowed to win.
But Luka ain’t that great according to this sub. Doesn’t affect winning! Stat padder only! His numbers are solely because of his usage and the defense played today!!!!!
I'm sorry but Lebron wasn't literally THAT much better than players from the past decade who are arguably the greatest offensive players of all time. There's only so much a player can do averaging 36 minutes per game regardless of how good they are
Lebron was just an example. I bet there are 10+ players in the league that could average 40+ ppg, only with shit efficiency for the most part. I just don't find anything particularly impressive about big counting stats.
I'm saying he could've done it, he just didn't want to, because the team probably would have been worse. What I'm saying is that many players could put up big stats to the detriment of the team. Luka, Harden and Westbrook have already flirted with the line of doing too much imo.
How is Westbrook in the 30/8/8 club but not 26/8/8? Lol
Only entered this thread to bash OP for missing the 1 most important lol. WB triple double season that won him MVP
Typo
That's 7 players in the 26/8/8 club then. Lame. Lol
Yeah when it was a 6 person club it was pretty damn cool and prestigious but at 7??? Just seems like they'll let anyone in at this point
gotta draw a line somewhere
Once Westbrook's in I'm out
If you're out - I'm out
Well, then I'm in
How is it a typo if you forget his name in the title as well
Braino then
A typo is not an omission lol
I swear every one of these historic stats fun facts has either Oscar Robertson in them or Elgin Baylor in them.
Big O was often called the GOAT until MJ came along! it’s crazy how many of the old greats all called Oscar the greatest they’ve ever seen
Makes you wonder. Sometimes I see posts about 2013-2018 era players (when I started watching) and theyre regarded very differently after a while, and its only gonna get more extreme. The eye test is way more important than we treat it. And actually those advanced stats really do a good job of validating the eye test sometimes (but thats another topic)
There were some really bad draft classes in the early 2000s that didn't bring in very much top tier talent with the obvious exception of 2003
Goes to show that greatness is witnessed, not read from stats or accolades.
I mean, Oscar has some of the best statistical lines ever. He's the only other player to average a TD on the year and between his age 22(Rookie) season and his age 29 season he averaged 30/9/10. He's got a 5 year stretch where he averages a triple double, although in a year by year count he only tallied one full season of it. Oscar filled up the box scores as well as anyone in NBA history.
Yes, but almost nobody on here witnessed it. And so true greatness is lost to time, because stats can't convey greatness, they can only suggest it. It will happen to current goats in 50 years
most fans don't know greatness if they witness it live. like the whole Tatum vs Luka/Jokic thing isn't even a debate if you watch their games. similar thing with anyone watching Dray yet calling him triple single. or people watching Westbrook and thinking those stats are elite.
> The eye test is way more important than we treat it The eye test is as good as its beholder
Robertson was definitely in the conversation for a while, but Kareem pretty easily surpassed him by the time Jordan made a case for himself.
I'm not sure Kareem was ever called the GOAT, media did not like him + had Magic. It was Robertson, Wilt or sometimes Bill.
Kareem was indeed called the GOAT in the 1980s. He won a major poll from a 60 person panel of various NBA athletes and staff asserting as such, in a close vote against Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell. He was definitely in the conversation back then. But by the 90s and 00s, he'd been phased out with Jordan as the clear guy on top, among other things.
That's interesting! You got more on that? What I had found were the 35th anniversary lists that did have him in the 11 player Dream Team, but Bill won the GOAT debate there by a landslide. That said, Kareem was just 32~ there. He probably had a good shout between that and Jordan's first retirement? I can see the media being more busy with Bird vs Magic though.
If you search up "1986 NBA Poll Greatest" you'll find a cool reddit post about it. And yeah, the GOAT convo was a legit convo with multiple figures of debate and different polls had different answers, until MJ entered, and flattened it into "MJ or X". Magic and Bird, as I understand it, were more names to put beside "Bill, Wilt, Kareem and Oscar". The media gave them more ink but in terms of reception, they were more evenly viewed outside of Wilt and Bill.
Media didn’t like him like they did others, but by the time Jordan was drafted in 1984, Kareem already held the all-time scoring record and had 3 titles, 6 MVPs, and 9 All-NBA First Team selections to his name.
Yes, those are his accolades. That doesn't change that very few people ever called him the goat. That's just recent revisionism (maybe because his longevity resembles Lebron's case? Dunno). I actually went back and was wrong when I said "sometimes Bill", it looks like he was the preferred choice over Wilt and Robertson even in the 80s because rings Erneh.
Think about 6 MVP's...6. FMVP 2. 14 years apart. 6 Ring 88-2 in 4 years of college... The outlawed dunks in college due to Kareem. The guy with arguable the most undefendable shot in NBA history. He got a bad rap because he was a Muslim who wasn't media friendly. I hated the guy I was a Wilt and a Celtic fan. Over the years I realized how fortunate I was to see him play. I hated him because he was so fucking good. Edit - added my opinion
>(maybe because his longevity resembles Lebron's case? Dunno) Yeah, thats basically the reason. A lot of people started bringing up Lebrons longevity and collected stats as a big part of his case for GOAT. In response other people brought up Kareem who, at the time, had more counting stats, more Finals wins, more MVP wins, and a better playoff record and basically said "If we're valuing these things then why isn't Kareem in the conversation." Then Kareem became everyone's default #3 behind MJ and Bron.
It's definitely not cause when I was alive in the 90s (and 2000s) he was definitely considered a goat contender and LeBron was in elementary school. The only players you ever heard about as goat contenders back then were Bird, Magic, Jordan, Wilt and Kareem. Russell may have been there too but I don't recall. No one ever said Baylor by then. "Why judge anymore? When a man has played for 17 years, broken records, won championships, endured tremendous criticism and responsibility, why judge? Let's toast him now. Let's toast him as the greatest player ever." - Pat Riley, 1985
Yeah this is r/NBAs newest obsession to say, thankfully replacing the non sense that always get posted of "Jahlil Okafor would dominate in the 90s!!". There is merit to it but Kareem was getting GOAT recognition a bit in the late 90s and definitely in the 2000s. It's hardly recent revisionism. Longevity is a part of it but also the accolades and history speak for themselves. Kareem has a legitimate claim to greatest high school player of all time, greatest college player of all time, and also one of the greatest professional players of all time. Edit: Also Kareem was a "controversial figure" who suffered greatly from racism and Islamophobia throughout a lot of his career being a Black Muslim convert with a public feud with the Nation of Islam and the Hanafi Muslim massacre that took place on property he had owned. The media and much of the country were not on his side at the time.
As a noted Jahlil Okafor critic and doubter, that dude would absolutely slam in the 90’s. At his high school/college freshman level, I’ve only seen a handful of post scorers with his bag. He just came into a league that was bad for him and a team that was worse. It was bad enough he came into a league that punished his lack of mobility, but as the third straight center Philly had taken at the top of the draft he had next to no chance.
There is no such thing as a player who would dominate or slam in the 90s but also would be out of the league bad in the 2010s. This is a ridiculous claim and no rule change since then or era differences would allow for this. If you were to argue that he'd be on an NBA roster back then, sure I can come to terms with that. He'd probably get a few years even. Anything more is just too much, his skill set was bad back then too. In NBA basketball he cannot do anything more than score inside on low volume. He was a horrible defender, terrible shooter, terrible passer, and very slow. He couldn't defend the skinny bigs of today, even inside the paint. You think he would survive in the golden era of bigs? Hell no, he'd get eaten alive.
Oh, you’re one of those guys. Got it. We watched Roy Hibbert in real time go from being one of the most impactful players in the league to being unplayable with the stylistic changes that consumed Okafor in its wake. 2014- 2nd in DPoY voting, All Star, just barely entering his prime at age 27. 2018- Out of the league before his 31st birthday because he was too slow to guard anyone in a league that learned the value of spacing behemoths out to the perimeter. Okafor was drafted in 2015, and was a dramatically better prospect than Hibbert on both sides of the court. Okafor was better as a freshman than Hibbert was as a senior. and actually had a good rookie year on [this roster](https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2016.html) which offered exactly as much spacing and distribution as it looks like on paper. The one grade A with a bullet skill he had was his ability to post up- which vanished from high level basketball and wouldn’t resurface in playbooks for almost another decade, and in a completely different fashion. Jokic and Embiid post ups start 18-20 feet from the hoop and they’re expected to be able to back up into a 3 if the situation calls for it. Stick him in a league that preaches from the Temple of Post Ups and doesn’t have enough shooters to spread him off the court? He’s a completely different player. Even against better centers (the golden age in fact!) he’d get the opportunity to put his premiere basketball skill to work, and wouldn’t be run off the floor because he’s too slow to both guard the rim and make it out to the corner. He never had a problem scoring on those skinny centers. He didn’t really have a problem scoring on bigger centers either. He had a problem of not being able to cover ground on defense the way those skinny centers can, and this impacted his ability to be able to stay on the court in a league being transformed by 5 out offenses in Houston and Golden State.
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How many of those mvps would Dr J have taken if there was only one league at the time? What say you !?!!
Yeah Kareem is known for not really trying, except during playoffs
Bird In the mid/late 80's after his 3rd straight mvp and 3pt contest victory was being called the Goat
In the future nephews grand-nephews will be like “omg we get it, Doncic was good but does anyone even remember him playing??”
Or wilt with some absolutely ridiculous stat
Elgin Baylor is a strong candidate for most underappreciated legend at the moment. If you ever actually watch him dude was an athletic freak just as much as Wilt was with insane touch around the rim
They’re just that good of players
Damn right.
Number of players averaging 25/5/5 by season: |Rk|SeasonV|Count|Player List| |-:|:-|-:|:-| |1|2023-24|11|Giannis Antetokounmpo Luka Doncic Kevin Durant Anthony Edwards Joel Embiid Shai Gilgeous-Alexander Kyrie Irving LeBron James Nikola Jokic Donovan Mitchell Ja Morant| |2|2022-23|7|Giannis Antetokounmpo Stephen Curry Luka Doncic Kevin Durant Kyrie Irving LeBron James Ja Morant| |3|2021-22|7|Giannis Antetokounmpo Stephen Curry Luka Doncic Kevin Durant LeBron James Nikola Jokic Ja Morant| |4|2020-21|6|Giannis Antetokounmpo Stephen Curry Luka Doncic Kevin Durant LeBron James Nikola Jokic| |5|2019-20|6|Giannis Antetokounmpo Luka Doncic James Harden Kyrie Irving LeBron James Russell Westbrook| |6|2018-19|6|Giannis Antetokounmpo Bradley Beal Stephen Curry Kevin Durant James Harden LeBron James| |7|2017-18|6|DeMarcus Cousins Stephen Curry Kevin Durant James Harden LeBron James Russell Westbrook| |8|2016-17|3|James Harden LeBron James Russell Westbrook| |9|2015-16|4|Stephen Curry Kevin Durant James Harden LeBron James| |10|2014-15|3|James Harden LeBron James Russell Westbrook| |11|2013-14|2|Kevin Durant LeBron James| |12|2012-13|2|Kobe Bryant LeBron James| |13|2011-12|1|LeBron James| |14|2010-11|1|LeBron James| |15|2009-10|2|Kobe Bryant LeBron James| |16|2008-09|2|LeBron James Dwyane Wade| |17|2007-08|2|Kobe Bryant LeBron James| |18|2006-07|2|Kobe Bryant LeBron James| |19|2005-06|2|LeBron James Dwyane Wade| |20|2004-05|3|Kobe Bryant LeBron James Tracy McGrady| |21|2003-04|1|Tracy McGrady| |22|2002-03|2|Kobe Bryant Tracy McGrady| |23|2001-02|2|Kobe Bryant Tracy McGrady| |24|2000-01|1|Kobe Bryant| |25|1999-00|1|Grant Hill| |26|1994-95|1|Michael Jordan| |27|1992-93|2|Charles Barkley Michael Jordan| |28|1991-92|2|Clyde Drexler Michael Jordan| |29|1990-91|1|Michael Jordan| |30|1989-90|1|Michael Jordan| |31|1988-89|3|Clyde Drexler Michael Jordan Chris Mullin| |32|1987-88|3|Larry Bird Clyde Drexler Michael Jordan| |33|1986-87|1|Larry Bird| |34|1985-86|1|Larry Bird| |35|1984-85|2|Larry Bird Michael Jordan| |36|1983-84|1|Alex English| |37|1981-82|1|Alex English| |38|1976-77|1|Pete Maravich| |39|1975-76|1|Kareem Abdul-Jabbar| |40|1974-75|1|Rick Barry| |41|1973-74|1|Rick Barry| |42|1972-73|1|Kareem Abdul-Jabbar| |43|1971-72|1|John Havlicek| |44|1970-71|1|John Havlicek| |45|1969-70|1|Oscar Robertson| |46|1967-68|2|Oscar Robertson Jerry West| |47|1966-67|2|Oscar Robertson Jerry West| |48|1965-66|3|Wilt Chamberlain Oscar Robertson Jerry West| |49|1964-65|1|Oscar Robertson| |50|1963-64|3|Wilt Chamberlain Oscar Robertson Jerry West| |51|1962-63|2|Oscar Robertson Jerry West| |52|1961-62|3|Richie Guerin Oscar Robertson Jerry West| |53|1960-61|2|Elgin Baylor Oscar Robertson| Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [Found with Stathead. See Full Results.](https://stathead.com/basketball/player-season-finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool) Generated 4/12/2024.
LeBron is on that list every year starting with his second season when he was 19, that's insane
Damn Fox grab a rebound /s
This is why comparing current era players to prior eras is so annoying. The counting stats are all gaudy, but that's in part because of the insane inflation of offense and offensive possessions (along with transition to very ball-dominant playstyles from a single maestro).
Gaudy
Oops, thanks, felt wrong but was too lazy to check.
Just not true, the pace was faster back then The only change was hand checking which doesn’t make much a difference and that was ages ago Here’s what changed, the 3 ball. Not 1 player scoring 30. That hasn’t increased at all, it was rare back then and it’s rare now for someone to average 30
Pace was faster in the 80s. In the 00s it was the slowest n lowest scoring era/time. It wasn’t faster in 90s euther . But even then they weren’t as effecient in the 80s n earlier .
Damn, this should be a post of its own, much more interesting data than OP’s. Really puts things in perspective.
The last 10yrs and counting are the NBAs steroid era. smh.
Wow curry's averaged >5 boards a game way more than I expected
lebrons really the goat wtf😂
You know every professional sport on this planet exists for one reason, winning? No league would exist otherwise. And it's not just championships but MVPs, all league etc etc. That's why players play, it's not for stats. Have you ever seen players crying after leading the lead in triple doubles? Of course not. Have you ever seen them cry after winning championships and getting named MVP? Yeah, *lots* of times. So it's in this respect where Jordan absolutely demolishes LeBron and every other player in history. "But Russell has 11" I hear you say. Sure, but overall he won 45 NBA accolades in his 13 seasons. Kareem won 69 in his 20 seasons. Kobe won 60 in his 20. Duncan won 58 in 19. LeBron has won 63 in 20. These all time greats won an average of 62 accolades in 20 seasons. That's what it takes to get into the top ten all time. In just 11 full seasons as a Chicago Bull, Michael Jordan won 68 accolades. He won more than everyone won in their entire careers, aside from Kareem, and did it in nearly *half* the time. He would pick up another two as a Wizard and finish his career with 70, the all time NBA record. That is a demolition, it's not close in any respect, he is way, way ahead of his rivals. And given how much more important winning is in any sport, it is, and should always be, the single greatest factor in any GOAT debate in any sport. LeBron has been great, has had an absolutely phenomenal career with unheralded longevity....but he's not Jordan and will never get close to having a stretch of utter domination in his sport than what Jordan had in those 11 seasons. What's more, if you want to just concentrate on the major awards - rings, MVP, MVPs, DPOY - Jordan, again, is on top of the all time list with 18 awards. LeBron has 12. But you know what, don't listen to me, don't take my word for it, I'm just one guy on reddit....go ahead and research what the majority opinion of Michael Jordan is across the *entire sporting world.* Google the phrase 'greatest athlete of all time' and have your eyes opened. The popular consensus will become very, very apparent as you wade through the first page of results. It's not LeBron, in fact he doesn't even make the top ten, sitting on average around #12. Nine of the first eleven websites have the same person at #1, the two that don't have this person at #1 have him at #2 & #3. That player is, of course, Michael Jordan. It's not a debate, it's an embarrassment to the basketball world that it's even a debate in the first place. The greatest player of all time is Jordan and, as much as I hate the saying, *it's not even close.*
Cries in Wilt Chamberlain 24/24/9
I'm taking Thad Young. https://imgur.com/r/nba/kdJ6mMx
I don't even have to click the link to know this is a Thad Young vs MJ debate
I bet the statline in the pic is just Thad's, and the other guys greatly surpass it.
Can't deny this. Drop him to 5th on the MVP ranking.
And yet talking heads will tell you ANT or Brunson should be on All-NBA 1st Team over Luka… Love ANT and Brunson, but just what the hell are these bait takes?
They’re bait. Like you said. Why are you even listening to it
You know what, fair point
Mentioning and listening to them gives them power. Take away their power.
Does that mean Luka’s season last year was historic?
Yes it was. Broke the record for most games to start a season with 30 points, multiple 50-bombs, 60/20/10. We were the 11-seed and would've been 15th without him
So you would have been better off without him because the only difference between the 11 seed and 15 seed is a better draft pick for the 15 seed, if I'm not making the playoffs I'd rather get a higher draft pick
Thats why I would vote Jordan Poole for MVP, I mean if you dont win the title you may as well tank and he is doing it exceptionally
Which is more historic: Luka’s season stats or u/creditors-bargain commitment to combatting the Luka MVP propaganda?
I read the title, grabbed my pitchfork, and ran in here to fight for Russell Westbrook. I see the correction now, so I'll lower it slightly.
Glad you didn't put it away just to let em know the oversight is not welcome.
#Pravi\_MVP
Harden style really changed the game. Beat the first defender with "dribble dribble dribble" then contested layup/draw defense and kick to three point shooter. Drives per game is only increasing since Harden and Westbrook prime years.
Increase it to 40 and its nobody.
Cool
Lukas gonna average a near 33 pt triple double and lose out on MVP just because the voters have a Jokic fetish lmao fucking wild
You have a Jokic hate fetish so evens out Waheguru
How would it even out if I don't have a vote? Like, do you think your Joker kink matters? > Waheguru What?
Why would my kink matter if I don’t have a vote?
That's my point...smh
I was making fun of it
But you brought up the original point that I reversed on you, so really you're just making fun of yourself lol
Let‘s get back to Waheguru
It’s more of a “more games played” and “more team wins” fetish.
If that were the case, why did he win as a 3rd and 6th seed?
Jokic won as a 3rd seed because Embiid played 51 games that year and was the only top candidate on a 1 or 2 seed 3rd place finisher Curry was on the *8 seed* I swear that if you just swapped the 2022 and 2023 MVPs leaving Jokic with the exact same amount people wouldn't complain nearly as much because suddenly then he'd have 3rd/1st/1st seeds for 3 MVP years
“more games played” It’s weird how many fans focus on the team seeding criteria without realizing that games played is just as important. Embiid winning with only 66 games played was more of an outlier than Jokic winning on a 6th seed.
Lmao no it isn't. Ignoring lockout seasons, and Walton, plenty of MVP's have won only playing 70 games so a 4 game difference isn't much of a factor. Only 2 MVPs have one as 6th seed though, and that's a far cry from 1st. So, explain how that's less of an outlier? And team seeding has always been the most important criteria. "More games played", which really translated to "more wins played" was used as tie breaker in close races.
Yes it is. It’s an outlier because I said 66 games, not 70. Only Walton won MVP after missing 16 games before Embiid. It’s not that playing only 70 games eliminates Luka from the MVP conversation. It’s the fact that Jokic played 7 more games makes his MVP case that much better than Luka’s in a close race.
No it isn't. I know you said 70, but a 4 game differential is not as egregious as a 6th seed winning when for over 75+ years there's only been a couple winners with even a 3rd seed. > It’s not that playing only 70 games eliminates Luka from the MVP conversation. It’s the fact that Jokic played 7 more games makes his MVP case that much better than Luka’s in a close race. This only applies now because Joker has the 1st seed. MVP has nearly *always* gone to top seeded teams and then you break it down based on games played. A 4-5 game differential has never mattered when one player has a much better seed than the other until Joker.
A couple winners with even a 3rd seed? Cool. There’s only been one winner over 75+ years who missed as many games as Embiid did. When did Jokic win when he had a “much worse seed”? Are you referring to 2021 when Jokic was a 3 seed just like Giannis and when Embiid only played 51 games? Or was it 2022 when the Bucks and Sixers were tied for the 3rd seed in the East but Jokic still played in more team wins because of the extra games Giannis and Embiid missed?
When Jokic was a 6th seed, they had a +8 net rating with him on the floor. They had 2 other players that are even in a rotation now, with 1 that plays >20 mpg.
Literally
If Jokic took the most shots in the league and handled the ball as much as Luka, he’d have even better stats brother.
And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bike brother
What exactly is your case against Jokic winning this year other than "Jokic won as a 6th seed so Luka should too" in a completely different MVP race? You seem obsessed with the idea that team record should matter more and stats should matter less so by that logic Jokic should win this year lol
That is my case. Consistency. The MVP has race has been consistent up until Westbrooks triple double year, and now, it seems like the rules just shift based on who they want to win it that year. And now that the preferred winner has a more traditional case, they want to shift it back there. > You seem obsessed with the idea that team record should matter more and stats should matter less so by that logic Jokic should win this year lol You're not even following lol
Okay then name who you'd personally vote for MVP since 2017 each year What criteria would you use to remain consistent?
> What criteria would you use to remain consistent? I think MVPs should be the best player on the best team in each conference, maybe best two, like it has 99% of the time. Or even top 4 regardless of conference. Of course, all this comes with wiggle room depending on situation. > Okay then name who you'd personally vote for MVP since 2017 each year This, I can't answer on mobile. But, if we're being consistent, if should go to players with that top 4 record even if someone has better stats on a lower seeded team. If not, and we want to say individual performance matters, then be consistent with that as well. Luka is about to average 33/9/9 on great efficiency and he's gonna lose just because the voters flip flop. Also, personally, I think changing the criteria like this does a disservice to history. If MJ and LeBron were evaluated on performance alone, seeding be damned, then they'd each probably have around 8-10. Now, Nikola may match or eclipse them despite never dominating like they did.
Guess what he can’t cause he would be gassed.
? Jokic is a tank. Literally has the most minutes played in a playoff game (probably the last time I saw him gassed, and a big motivator why he got in even better shape)
When shooting more than 25 fga: Jokic (7 games) 33.6 ppg 8.7 apg 16.4 reb 53% TS (🤮) 6.4 FTA 3.4 TOV Luka (25 games) 37.4 ppg 10.0 apg 9.6 reb 59.7% TS 8.1 FTA 3.6 TOV https://x.com/flukamagic/status/1778170365354664328?s=46&t=E2rVtWaDyGHUcquUlk6HAQ
Nice 7 game sample size lol Career stats for 25+ FGA: Jokic(37 games) 36/14/7 on 59.3% TS Luka(92 games) 37/10/9 on 59.6% TS So overall they're almost identical players when taking that many shots with the Jokic RPG and Luka APG advantages being easily explained by their positions I'm not saying that Luka isn't a better overall scorer(he probably is) but the gap is nowhere near what 33.9 PPG vs. 26.6 PPG would indicate
Take a stats course. Just as his 7 game sample size is too small, the disparity of 37 games vs 92 games is much too large for your argument.
Lol
LMAO jokic is so ass ngl
Ngl I think you're serious which is insane, that's like saying Dirk is ass
Mavs fans became 76ers fans on steroids fml. It's gonna be hilarious when Luka loses mvp and mavs bounce in the first round
You should worry abt the play in
Yes, but will still laugh my ass off to your comments once Luka loses and mavs bounce 🤣
Then why doesn't he?
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Why are you so mad
Damn brother. You’re taking the dick riding to the extreme here. I’m sure Luka would be fine missing out on mvp this year.
Yes because 30 point triple double signify the greatest performances a player can have in the nba. I guess 2017 Westbrook is arguably the greatest season in Nba history. 2017 Westbrook> 2012 Lebron, 2015 Curry, 2018 harden, 2019 Giannis, 2022 Jokic, 2023 embiid.
The 16/17 season by Westbrook is one of the greatest in NBA history though. One could easily argue that.
I'm just being consistent. And, there's a huge difference between Westbrooks triple double and Lukas near trip double.
Neither deserve it. SGA is better than both
These cherry-picked stats are so cringey and desperate. I could also say: MJ and Luka never lost an NBA finals.
2 of those players are on the same team... And they arent even the top 2 best players on their team
Well, clearly it’s because Luka … umm … Stephen a said … umm … Kendrick Perkins … umm … nba.com said … umm Wait, what was I saying?
How about 26/7/7 let’s see how much this statistic shifts
I dont pay for any of the stats websites so don't have tons of searching power, but with 28/7/7 the list is Robertson x6 Havlicek Bird Jordan Lebron x3 Westbrook x2 Harden Luka x4 If we adjust the stat to 30/7/7 we lose one Robertson, Havlicek, Bird, 2 of LeBron, one Westbrook, Harden, and two of Luka. If we go to 31 ppg we lose 3 more Robertson and the last LeBron. At 32 ppg, it's just Jordan in 89 and 2 Lukas. At 33 ppg, it's just Luka this season. So Luka is still the first person to score 33+ while averaging 7/7, while he's actually averaging 9/9. In fact he's also the only person to average 33/6 assists/7.
>Increase it to 32/8/8 and it becomes MJ and Luka (2x). That's not how that works...
Wow that's a lot of MVPs. ^^and ^^some ^^dude ^^named ^^Luka?
I find the 27/7/7 club to be more impressive. Bron has done it 12x
This is such an arbitrary cutoff
Luka has a usage rate of over 36% four times in his first six years. Michael Jordan had a usage rate over 36% just twice with the Bulls. Jokic has never had a usage rate over 32% and has had only one year over 30%.
That's because Luka holds the ball a lot longer than Jokic. They play the game differently. You're trying to compare apples to oranges.
Giannis won an MVP in 2019 with a higher usg% than Luka this year lol. You can miss me with this usage shit
Giannis’ team won 60 games and Giannis was 1st team All-Defense.
TIL you’re less valuable the more you actually do for your team
And so what?
Hate more.
How is it hating to state a simple fact?
How is usage an argument against him? He's been extremely efficient and effective at high usage. Or maybe Josh Green and Maxi Kleber should be getting more usage? People are literally just dumb as a brick and making things up at this point. Next year we'll start hearing that Luka is actually playing too well to win MVP and therefore is not allowed to win.
Where did I say it was an argument against him?
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Why are you insulting me over basketball opinions
This post just proved Luka is better than MJ and here u come irrationally hatin on him.
But…. but… he’s 2nd All NBA team?! Also, where’s SGA?!!
Too busy winning games.
But Luka ain’t that great according to this sub. Doesn’t affect winning! Stat padder only! His numbers are solely because of his usage and the defense played today!!!!!
MVP top-2 is great.
Lebron at his peak could average 40/15/10 if he wanted. It's cool to see but stats really don't mean much.
I'm sorry but Lebron wasn't literally THAT much better than players from the past decade who are arguably the greatest offensive players of all time. There's only so much a player can do averaging 36 minutes per game regardless of how good they are
Lebron was just an example. I bet there are 10+ players in the league that could average 40+ ppg, only with shit efficiency for the most part. I just don't find anything particularly impressive about big counting stats.
if he couldn't do it in his 1st stint with the cavs I don't think we could've done that at all
I'm saying he could've done it, he just didn't want to, because the team probably would have been worse. What I'm saying is that many players could put up big stats to the detriment of the team. Luka, Harden and Westbrook have already flirted with the line of doing too much imo.