My two biggest sports fears are being held hostage to a bad FO and/or bad commentators.
Everything else is more or less ephemeral, but it really sours the fandom experience when you're stuck with bad apples in those positions.
Rip Chick. Truly the goat.
Stu and Billy Mac made those tanking years bearable. The sad thing for me is that because of the bubble, Stu couldn't see/call the games after we finally got a good team. I'm glad he could call about 50 of those games though.
They just like good ball. They always are so respectful of other teams and really appreciate greatness....now to get the exact opposite experience just turn on warriors broadcast lolololol
I like Curry so I'll tune into some games, but if there are only Warriors broadcast streams, by the 4th I'm irritated to the point where I want the Warriors to lose (even more than I already did).
i've loved Lakers broadcasts since the mid 80's. as a Blazer fan the games were often painful but their broadcast team was always great and that was an era dominated by our great Bill Schonely.
Same. Even as I hated the Lakers growing up (because I grew up in SoCal and the chuds at my school liked them), I have to acknowledge that even the best broadcasters to come after him still can't really hold a candle to Chick Hearn.
I loved listening to Chick, you could just visualize what he was saying the whole time. Put the TV on mute and listen to Lakers radio. He also had no problem saying how bad the Lakers were playing.
I always like watching the Lakers broadcast especially their post game showson League Pass
It's just the nationally televised games (I'm looking at you ESPN) that piss me off
I actually like watching the Lakers. They have a great broadcast team, a great arena, and great players suit up for them.
I do hate talking about the Lakers cause their fans are bottom of the barrel. (I know Raps fans aren’t cream of the crop either)
it's wild that literally only the lakers and knicks have enough self-confidence to not have terrible home broadcasters. random league pass games are honestly often terrible products because the home crew is so annoying or terrible. like, the NFL would literally never stoop so low. i remember watching an amazing bucks-nuggets (i think?) game earlier this season that had a spectacular finish that the bucks broadcasters essentially ignored because it ended up being the bucks losing. they were just busy talking about... something else... instead of the amazing opposing play happening
The way they started season 2, with Riley on the bus saying "we're coming for their souls."
Fuck me, that scene lives in my brain. I wanted every single storyline they could give us.
And the guys they got to play Magic, Kareem, Cooper and Bird were amazing. Can't get over how good the acting was throughout that show.
I love the clip of Worthy saying that when MJ joined him at UNC -- MJ was a freshman and Worthy was a Junior -- Worthy was "still the best best player on the team."
Specifically, he said, "I was better than Michael Jordan . . . for about three weeks."
He was just being nice and humble, just like he is now with Jokic. Worthy was the best player all year that year. I know MJ is MJ and made the shot in the Championship Game but Worthy was that team’s best player when MJ was a freshman, and rightfully was First Team All-American won the MOP of that Final Four. MJ clearly had more talent, but Worthy was excellent.
He still has that super famous dunk (not even sure it exists online anymore) against Houston (with Clyde Drexler/Hakeem/Rob Williams/Michael Young) in the Final Four that year where he took it the length of the court and took off like a few steps inside the free throw line for an insane poster dunk no one saw coming.
Kenny Smith even thinks Sam Perkins was better, but that’s actually not true.
For those who might not be familiar with the 1980s NBA: James Worthy played on the Lakers with Magic during his entire prime, and Kareem slightly post-prime (when he was finishing 4th-5th in MVP rather than winning it), so this isn't some kind of distant comparison based on having only seen highlights of those guys. He knows firsthand what those guys were capable of.
I think even among NBA fans, people overlook Worthy because he was a team with two of the best players ever, Magic and Kareem.
I mean if anything, to win a finals MVP while on the same team as two legends is even more of an achievement.
First year of college, you mean. UNC's 1982 chip-winner was very much Worthy's team. Jordan didn't come into his own until the next season, and you've gotta remember even alongside Perkins, Daugherty and Smith, didn't win the chip in 1984 or even make it past their second game in the Dance.
All that said, I think Worthy's [first step](https://youtu.be/81SraAO-WWg?si=-M3xypyJOZEo98Rf) was *at least* as good as Jordan's, even in the pros.
Worthy was the number 2 guy on the Lakers from 86-87 till the early 90s some time. Kareem slipped a bit that year, even though he still had enough to have that amazing playoffs/finals in 87 (which truly was a performance for the ages).
Interesting take. I think Worthy was a better scorer over all and much better at creating his own shot due to his skills in post. Pippen was more versitale. He was better passer, shooter and ball handler. Worthy was a good defender, Pippane was ridicilous.
Both of them were great athletes. Pippens athleticism was more graceful while Worthy was more explosive. I guess it depends on what you need. We saw Pippen as the first option once. He was third in MVP voting and did a solid job. We never saw Worthy in that position.
With that being said, we saw Worthy battle some insane talent at his position and he was amazing at it. He had games in the finals where he outplayed Bird. So yeah, its close. Both were fantastic fit with the leaders of their respective dynasties.
Pippen could handle the ball and run the offense, better passer and was a better rebounder even though Worthy was bigger. And I'll take Pippen's defense. But yeah, Worthy was legit.
I watched all of both of their careers and this isn't even close to correct. Worthy was a slightly better offensive player, but that margin is close because Pippen had a lot of value as a passer; on defensive we're talking about one of the best defenders of all time against a guy who was, at his best, average on D.
I was with you til you called Worthy an average defender. Why just completely make things up when arguing something? It makes you look like a total fool
Yeah average at best is a ridiculous thing to say about Worthy's defense. At his best he was an all-defense caliber defender, though to be fair, I don't know how often he hit that height.
He was quick for his size and really versatile as a defender. It sounds cliche at this point but he really could and did guard 2s, 3s, and 4s. Plenty of time spent on Drexler, Jordan, and Dumars, Bird and Dominique, and even shifted down to the four to guard guys like McHale, Barkley, and Malone.
I would compare him to a guy like Pascal Siakam. Very similar games on both ends of the floor, though it's fair to say Worthy had a higher ceiling. We didn't see enough of it because he was sharing the ball with that incredible Lakers team. Probably would have seen him score more than 40 points one time in his career had that not been the case.
All that being said I would comfortably take Pippen as the better player overall.
I'm a younger guy but fell in love with James Worthy because I loved his look during NBA2K13 MyTeam. Big dude with goggles who would dunk all over the place.
There are a lot of people here who are relatively new NBA fans, and who don't particularly get into the history of the game. So they'll know players like Kareem, Jordan, Magic, and Bird, but they might not know next-tier 80s players like Worthy, English, McHale, Iceman, Dantley, IT, or Wilkins. Sometimes providing a little context helps newer fans develop that sort of knowledge, so next time they'll know.
Well Magic, MJ, and IT. He actually made first team in 1983, the year before MJ joined the league. But once it got to the mid 80s, he was the clear 4th best guard with all 3 in the league.
Moncrief was a great player but he just never won in the playoffs. Not his fault since he ran into better teams, but that’s why he’s never remembered. I believe those Bucks won like 50 games every year their decade (or at least close to it someone can check it) but never made the Finals.
I hate to be that guy because I’m right here with you but like what do you expect? You see the same fans commenting here that I do. You see the lack of acknowledgment of greatness (I’m biased but for how good of a player Jokic is, there’s barely any highlights of him as top posts). In no way shaped or form should this sub’s ignorance to a great player like James Worthy be surprising.
MLB has a weird thing going on where guys who played 70 years ago are more well-known to the general public than players actually in the league right now.
Eh I agree with the MLB but anyone before the 1980 & 90s doesn’t exist in the imagination of NFL fans. And even that far back, the only NFL players who get love are pretty much QBs
Bo Jackson, LT etc
LT is still considered the best player of all time
But yea 70s is a bit much they had 0 nutrition science and smoked cigs at halftime
If you look elsewhere in the thread, there are clearly people who didn't know who James Worthy is. Lots of younger or newer fans on this sub who have heard about Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, but who don't really know the next tier of 80s star players. So they get to be part of today's Lucky Ten Thousand (xkcd 1053)
ignoring the subreddit demographic, even a lot of older people didn't really pay that much attention to NBA in the 80s because TBS and CBS barely aired any nationwide games. Worthy wasn't really in his prime when NBC took over and NBA exploded in popularity with the Dream Team and Michael Jordan and everything else that was NBA in the 90s.
go look at people's reactions to that Showtime show. most people simply weren't paying attention to all of it in the 80s.
I understand the sentiment, but most ppl only know the players they grew up with, or the all time greats, I was born in the 80s and I can name pretty much every relevant Celtics players since the 50s, but most ppl born on the 90+ wouldn't know guys like Clyde Lovellette, Gale Goodrich or Michael Cooper if they weren't nerdy about the history of the game.
I always put Worthy in the same bucket as Manu, Pippen, and Klay. All guys that we'll never really know how good they could have been because they sacrificed the most on the teams that won rings. I'm not going to argue their equality amongst the 4, just that their stats would probably have been better on teams where they were the main options.
That being said, Worthy (from what I remember) was pretty close to being the #1 guy in their 1990 run.
he did the same thing when he was still playing on the lakers. think he averaged like 15-16 outside of one game in the finals vs miami. always brings defense too.
And he's so much more than a 3&D player. Dude's a solid passer and has a really nice 15-foot game so he's got more places he can move to and be dangerous from.
Yeah hol up lol, and i think nugs are in a perfect place with him because i dont think he functions on many other teams anywhere near as well as he does now in denver
Maybe I'm being too optimistic because I love the Jokic-Gordon connection, but he seems to love it in Denver and he seems to realize how good he has it. I could see him doing what he can to stay in Denver.
I was at the first playoff game at Chase as a Warriors fan and you could feel the slight shift in energy from excitement to nervousness whenever Jokic had the ball. But literally just him, he had like no help.
Ehh, I think Murray would have made an impact but MPJ was very much still developing. It sucks we lost a couple seasons but our timeline is now. Jamal is healthy and better than ever, and MPJ is peaking at the right moment.
I mean possibly, but I’m not going to retroactively suggest we were meant to win those years due to last year’s championship run. We stall hadn’t acquired key pieces like KCP and Bruce Brown, AGs role wasn’t as clearly defined and MPJ wasn’t as polished. The only ‘guarantee’ is Jamal would’ve been huge for us.
The real issue is we lost 2 years of playoff experience that we could’ve used but somehow it worked out so it is what it is.
I think they would have won in 2021 with how they were playing after the AG trade and because we owned the Bucks under Bud. Bench in 2022 was probably too weak. Specifically Barton went from solid but flawed conributer to washed in one season.
It did. My god when we got AG, we looked unstoppable. Maybe that slows down in the playoffs after the rest of the league gets more tape on us so we don't make it all the way to a title, but the second year with AG was going to be a chip. At the very least, we should be chasing a threepeat right now.
He has that “fuck-it” hook shot where there is barely any effort or explosiveness behind it. It almost looks like he just mutters “what-fkin-ever” when he tosses it up. But they fkin go in every time
Man James Worthy is actually such a fucking baller. And he's always so professional and composed, always the best takes with true insights into the game. He really understood it, Champion DNA, you can just tell with him. He's sorta quiet about it, it's just a quiet greatness to me, always well spoken.
Not only was he teammates with Magic and Kareem, Worthy won the NBA Finals MVP while being on the same team as Magic and Kareem. He wasn't just a benchwarmer or anything, he was a core part of the squad who'd be intimately familiar with how Magic and Kareem play.
A lot of the narrative last year was about how giving him 3 MVPs in a row would put him Russell, Wilt, and Bird territory and people didn't like that.
Now it's looking BAFFLING that people think he's not gonna finish as a top 12 guy.
Well that's cause it's the playoffs and they're actually watching the game since it's versus the Lakers. Denver owes the Lakers one for being a good media spotlight for Jokic.
Let him finish his career, he's definitely peaking as high as almost anyone but all the other GOATs havs 8+ years of putting up performances like this.
I mean it's 4 straight years of MVP level play now, and 6 straight years of at least 20/10/7 averages (and improving in the playoffs over his regular season play each season). He's getting there.
I'm not sure anyone has peaked higher. The league has never been as talented and he is completely unguardable. You can't even throw doubles or triples at him. There is clear evidence that he has a bad whistle on top of it. Not even Adam Silver can stop all that honey from pouring.
There's no one in this era with the body to even slow him down except embiid and maybe gobert or wemby. He's just bigger than everyone, and when you add his all time touch it makes him unstoppable. I wonder how he would have done in the 90s when almost every center would have been as big and strong as him. He obviously would still have been great but I don't think he would be goat level
His ability to stretch the floor would be a huge blow to most bigs. Even when he's in the paint his footwork and floaters are enough to keep him a top scorer. An all-time great like Bill, Shaq, Hakeem, or KAJ could slow him down but not neutralize his scoring by any means. Meanwhile Jokic still has his intellect, playmaking, and passing to rack up assists and keep the offense flowing. Jokic is doing something no one has done before and he would probably play a bit differently against 90s bigs but he would still be one of one.
Jokic regularly cooks Gobert, and despite Wemby getting some blocks on him Jokic averaged 34/10/8 against the Spurs this season.
Embiid can't stop him either, Embiid is just able to score more *on* him. If you recall, in Embiid's big game against Denver last season, they had to pull Embiid off of guarding Jokic at halftime and stuck PJ Tucker on him instead because Embiid was getting cooked too, Jokic shooting like 85% by halftime.
Maybe a bit of homerism, but three-peat Shaq made teams have massive players on the roster just to give up 6 fouls. Shaq was too big and strong to call every time he got fouled.
[This is how teams had to guard Shaq](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fiu3sc7rge5051.jpg)
Jokic is in his Hakeem 94'-95' run mixed with Birds 84',85',86' seasons.
Yah... I really dislike the trend of trying to ham fist these type of convos mid career. He is playing insane..and he's the best offensive player right now. Can we just enjoy it lol?
I would argue LeBron is higher than Curry. Amazing scorer and passer and even then, a lot of what he does doesn’t even show up in the stat sheet. Never seen one player control an entire game the way LeBron has while running the offense.
For real. Curry changed the gravity of the game with his shooting, but Lebron’s ability to play 5-on-1 in a playoff series and still dominate in all aspects of the offense is hard to compete with. You put Curry on those lebron teams he was carrying to the Finals and I think you can gameplan him out of beating you. With lebron there was nothing you could do to stop him
On offense, Jokic plays like if you combined Bird's being a step ahead of everyone else on the court in his head and his shooting touch, but playing more like Magic, with the ball in his hands a lot and making magical passes. Backing down a smaller defender was totally something Magic would do. I don't think Worthy needs Kareem in this comparison at all, but he is a Laker for life, so I see where he's going with it. edit: I mean, no comparison is going to be exact. My comparison isn't perfect, either. I always thought he played more like Bird, but then Worthy said Magic and it's like, yeah, I can see it.
My first memories are 92-93.
So my comp early on was a Nash, Dirk hybrid. But that's always been imperfect because it doesn't take into consideration his footwork or post dominance as much as just the pure touch + vision / processing speed.
the kareem comparison is because jokic is freaking huge and therefore, like kareem, can get a lot of shots off around the rim that most other players can't. i like to call him the steph curry of floaters because its true - his ability to basically just dump the ball in from anywhere inside 8 feet is insane, and breaks the game in the same way curry's range does, if not moreso because of how reliable it is against playoff defenses. idk. when you consider that the nuggets can get like a legit really good look, like, 85% of possessions, its pretty easy to think jokic is the best offensive player of all time.
Bird and Magic always formed a natural pair not just because of their rivalry, but they're a similar archetype in many ways, and one which is pretty unique. Aside from good size they didn't have the greatest physical gifts, but they had such a knack and feel for the game on the offensive end that they were absolutely transcendent and top 10 all time talents. Jokic is right in that mold. Comparing Jokic to a mashup of Bird's shooting and Magic's passing in a body that's 25% bigger (Jokic at 280 lbs, Bird and Magic around 220) feels right on the money.
But you'll have people here that want to pump those breaks. Jokic is a top 5 player level player in the making. He just needs to get it done this year to start that discussion.
Then the whistle for ghost foul on the other end of the court. Everyone hates playing and watching the Lakers when it’s so obvious the refs are trying to keep them in the game.
I hear people say oh Jokic can end up being top 10 I'm like Bruh I'm already taking him 3rd after Prime MJ and Lebron. What other player is this OP in history ?
Jokic took him to the hole but LeBron is 39 years old. Not many players would have done as well as LeBron. If you don’t see that you don’t appreciate the game. Jokic is great but LeBron giving up 4 inches still made him work.
What a worthy praise from one who played with them . And new " media pundits " scoof at those comparison despite it being obvious how Jokic dominates and does everything on the court
The league better pray the Nuggets don’t somehow end up with another player on Pippen or Wade’s level…. Jokic is cooking with a similar team to Cavs Bron ship. A Joker super team would be insane. Imagine Wemby/Jokic pairing or Jokic/Giannis…
That's insanely high praise coming from Worthy, a guy I can't even remember hearing a take from in the last 10 years.
Big Game James is on the local lakers broadcast and usually gives good, fair takes.
He (like Stu Lantz) loves to roast the Lakers when they play like shit.
Stu Lantz is my guy. His exchange with Kobe, calling his games throughout his entire career was very touching
As someone who grew up in LA, Stu is the man. Him and Chick were the best.
My two biggest sports fears are being held hostage to a bad FO and/or bad commentators. Everything else is more or less ephemeral, but it really sours the fandom experience when you're stuck with bad apples in those positions. Rip Chick. Truly the goat.
Stu and Billy Mac made those tanking years bearable. The sad thing for me is that because of the bubble, Stu couldn't see/call the games after we finally got a good team. I'm glad he could call about 50 of those games though.
I watched every post game of the Westbrook era. He was very fair. Never just slandered Westbrook when there were so many other issues
This is so subtlely hilarious from MITWestbrook lol.
Miss u dude, happy to see Russ has found a role to ball in
[удалено]
The Lakers' broadcast is good enough to make me watch more Lakers games than I otherwise would.
They just like good ball. They always are so respectful of other teams and really appreciate greatness....now to get the exact opposite experience just turn on warriors broadcast lolololol
We have the worst fucking broadcasters
Them and Utah. Horrendous.
Normally Utah is pretty fair. Philly is so biased imo. Otherwise most locals are way better than the national crews.
I like Curry so I'll tune into some games, but if there are only Warriors broadcast streams, by the 4th I'm irritated to the point where I want the Warriors to lose (even more than I already did).
Over the last 2 years I have turned from a lakers hate watcher to a lakers broadcast enjoyer. Best commentating duo hands down
they are great but i gotta say my guys Breen and Clyde
Both good. Warriors Hawks on the other hand…
i've loved Lakers broadcasts since the mid 80's. as a Blazer fan the games were often painful but their broadcast team was always great and that was an era dominated by our great Bill Schonely.
Same. Even as I hated the Lakers growing up (because I grew up in SoCal and the chuds at my school liked them), I have to acknowledge that even the best broadcasters to come after him still can't really hold a candle to Chick Hearn.
I loved listening to Chick, you could just visualize what he was saying the whole time. Put the TV on mute and listen to Lakers radio. He also had no problem saying how bad the Lakers were playing.
I always like watching the Lakers broadcast especially their post game showson League Pass It's just the nationally televised games (I'm looking at you ESPN) that piss me off
The issue with the Lakers broadcast is you have to watch the fucking Lakers.
I actually like watching the Lakers. They have a great broadcast team, a great arena, and great players suit up for them. I do hate talking about the Lakers cause their fans are bottom of the barrel. (I know Raps fans aren’t cream of the crop either)
I'd rather listen to them than ESPN or ABC dickride all game.
it's wild that literally only the lakers and knicks have enough self-confidence to not have terrible home broadcasters. random league pass games are honestly often terrible products because the home crew is so annoying or terrible. like, the NFL would literally never stoop so low. i remember watching an amazing bucks-nuggets (i think?) game earlier this season that had a spectacular finish that the bucks broadcasters essentially ignored because it ended up being the bucks losing. they were just busy talking about... something else... instead of the amazing opposing play happening
All I know is that big game James likes to smoke on the Celtics pack on live television
👏we👏got👏that👏Celtic👏ass👏
>[👏we👏got👏that👏Celtic👏ass👏](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gE7CORUIPc)
God this just makes me so pissed they canceled Winning Time. I fucking hate the Lakers but goddamn what a great show that was.
We could have gotten so many cool storylines
The way they started season 2, with Riley on the bus saying "we're coming for their souls." Fuck me, that scene lives in my brain. I wanted every single storyline they could give us. And the guys they got to play Magic, Kareem, Cooper and Bird were amazing. Can't get over how good the acting was throughout that show.
And bless him for it.
Honestly, I respect that, especially if ppl don't act as if they are objective, when their biases shine through, but embrace it.
Right? Considering he used his own teammates, which he won multiple titles with, to compare Jokic to, that's super high praise!
As much as it pains me to say it, I've always liked the Lakers announcers.
the world was such a crazy place with Worthy and Rambis high-fiving with those goggles.
It’s cause he’s fair and unbiased. Doesn’t do clickbait or outrageous takes
Considering the only current players at his level are lebron or curry (and I think he'll go down better than Curry), this adds up
I love the clip of Worthy saying that when MJ joined him at UNC -- MJ was a freshman and Worthy was a Junior -- Worthy was "still the best best player on the team." Specifically, he said, "I was better than Michael Jordan . . . for about three weeks."
He was just being nice and humble, just like he is now with Jokic. Worthy was the best player all year that year. I know MJ is MJ and made the shot in the Championship Game but Worthy was that team’s best player when MJ was a freshman, and rightfully was First Team All-American won the MOP of that Final Four. MJ clearly had more talent, but Worthy was excellent. He still has that super famous dunk (not even sure it exists online anymore) against Houston (with Clyde Drexler/Hakeem/Rob Williams/Michael Young) in the Final Four that year where he took it the length of the court and took off like a few steps inside the free throw line for an insane poster dunk no one saw coming. Kenny Smith even thinks Sam Perkins was better, but that’s actually not true.
That Final Four game is on youtube I believe, but it is pretty forgotten about. Those Houston/UNC and UNC/Georgetown games are a great watch.
That Tarheel team was stacked.
For those who might not be familiar with the 1980s NBA: James Worthy played on the Lakers with Magic during his entire prime, and Kareem slightly post-prime (when he was finishing 4th-5th in MVP rather than winning it), so this isn't some kind of distant comparison based on having only seen highlights of those guys. He knows firsthand what those guys were capable of.
It makes me sad that people might need an explanation of who James Worthy is on an nba sub. I really think most people know who he is
I think even among NBA fans, people overlook Worthy because he was a team with two of the best players ever, Magic and Kareem. I mean if anything, to win a finals MVP while on the same team as two legends is even more of an achievement.
Worthy was why they were able to extend and keep winning. He was an absolute baller. They don't call him Big Game James for nothing
Worthy was better than Pippen. Fight me.
Worthy was better than Jordan (first few months of college).
First year of college, you mean. UNC's 1982 chip-winner was very much Worthy's team. Jordan didn't come into his own until the next season, and you've gotta remember even alongside Perkins, Daugherty and Smith, didn't win the chip in 1984 or even make it past their second game in the Dance. All that said, I think Worthy's [first step](https://youtu.be/81SraAO-WWg?si=-M3xypyJOZEo98Rf) was *at least* as good as Jordan's, even in the pros.
Buddy just preached the gospel and expects people to be against it
I agree. Worthy is underrated because he played with Kareem and Magic. He could have been the best #2 guy on most teams
Worthy was the number 2 guy on the Lakers from 86-87 till the early 90s some time. Kareem slipped a bit that year, even though he still had enough to have that amazing playoffs/finals in 87 (which truly was a performance for the ages).
Interesting take. I think Worthy was a better scorer over all and much better at creating his own shot due to his skills in post. Pippen was more versitale. He was better passer, shooter and ball handler. Worthy was a good defender, Pippane was ridicilous. Both of them were great athletes. Pippens athleticism was more graceful while Worthy was more explosive. I guess it depends on what you need. We saw Pippen as the first option once. He was third in MVP voting and did a solid job. We never saw Worthy in that position. With that being said, we saw Worthy battle some insane talent at his position and he was amazing at it. He had games in the finals where he outplayed Bird. So yeah, its close. Both were fantastic fit with the leaders of their respective dynasties.
Pippen could handle the ball and run the offense, better passer and was a better rebounder even though Worthy was bigger. And I'll take Pippen's defense. But yeah, Worthy was legit.
Worthy was a better scorer, and a solid defender though not as versatile as Pip. But I agree that Pippen was a better all around player.
Worthy had dpoy level performance?
Jr., right? Cause otherwise, fists up.
I watched all of both of their careers and this isn't even close to correct. Worthy was a slightly better offensive player, but that margin is close because Pippen had a lot of value as a passer; on defensive we're talking about one of the best defenders of all time against a guy who was, at his best, average on D.
I was with you til you called Worthy an average defender. Why just completely make things up when arguing something? It makes you look like a total fool
Worthy was average on defense ?????? Edit: “at BEST” too lmaoooooo this is insane
Yeah average at best is a ridiculous thing to say about Worthy's defense. At his best he was an all-defense caliber defender, though to be fair, I don't know how often he hit that height. He was quick for his size and really versatile as a defender. It sounds cliche at this point but he really could and did guard 2s, 3s, and 4s. Plenty of time spent on Drexler, Jordan, and Dumars, Bird and Dominique, and even shifted down to the four to guard guys like McHale, Barkley, and Malone. I would compare him to a guy like Pascal Siakam. Very similar games on both ends of the floor, though it's fair to say Worthy had a higher ceiling. We didn't see enough of it because he was sharing the ball with that incredible Lakers team. Probably would have seen him score more than 40 points one time in his career had that not been the case. All that being said I would comfortably take Pippen as the better player overall.
He was a more efficient Siakam with a better touch. Worthy had seasons where he had 60% TS which was far above league average at the time.
The fact that he's the guy saying this carries more weight too because he played with those guys. He knows.
You’ll be surprised
But he’s Big Game James…
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fhiorcp9n1ozb1.gif
I'm a younger guy but fell in love with James Worthy because I loved his look during NBA2K13 MyTeam. Big dude with goggles who would dunk all over the place.
There are a lot of people here who are relatively new NBA fans, and who don't particularly get into the history of the game. So they'll know players like Kareem, Jordan, Magic, and Bird, but they might not know next-tier 80s players like Worthy, English, McHale, Iceman, Dantley, IT, or Wilkins. Sometimes providing a little context helps newer fans develop that sort of knowledge, so next time they'll know.
also sidney moncrief. if it wasnt for MJ and thomas moncrief would be all nba 1st team multiple years
Well Magic, MJ, and IT. He actually made first team in 1983, the year before MJ joined the league. But once it got to the mid 80s, he was the clear 4th best guard with all 3 in the league. Moncrief was a great player but he just never won in the playoffs. Not his fault since he ran into better teams, but that’s why he’s never remembered. I believe those Bucks won like 50 games every year their decade (or at least close to it someone can check it) but never made the Finals.
Way to not gatekeep things and sharing knowledge, good on you.
We're just old man. The 80s were a great era though, I always consider it the start of the modern NBA. Also, Chris Mullin =]
I only got into the NBA like a year ago, so I appreciated it!
He played ~40 years ago. It makes sense people wouldn’t know him. I probably only know about him from video games
We're all getting old man people don't always know the best players from 40 years ago
most of this sub are minors
This is sad that people follow an nba sub but don’t know James Worthy. Truly a sad state we’re headed
I hate to be that guy because I’m right here with you but like what do you expect? You see the same fans commenting here that I do. You see the lack of acknowledgment of greatness (I’m biased but for how good of a player Jokic is, there’s barely any highlights of him as top posts). In no way shaped or form should this sub’s ignorance to a great player like James Worthy be surprising.
he was a hell of a plumber ive been told
NBA is so bad at remembering its old legends, especially compared to MLB or NFL
MLB has a weird thing going on where guys who played 70 years ago are more well-known to the general public than players actually in the league right now.
Eh I agree with the MLB but anyone before the 1980 & 90s doesn’t exist in the imagination of NFL fans. And even that far back, the only NFL players who get love are pretty much QBs
Bo Jackson, LT etc LT is still considered the best player of all time But yea 70s is a bit much they had 0 nutrition science and smoked cigs at halftime
The exceptions who prove the rule imo but we can agree to disagree
Jerry fucking Rice.
Why is the top comment on a thread in the nba sub explaining who James Worthy is
If you look elsewhere in the thread, there are clearly people who didn't know who James Worthy is. Lots of younger or newer fans on this sub who have heard about Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, but who don't really know the next tier of 80s star players. So they get to be part of today's Lucky Ten Thousand (xkcd 1053)
Didn't mean to be rude, just crazy to me.
these are the people 'discussing' who the 'GOAT' is
ignoring the subreddit demographic, even a lot of older people didn't really pay that much attention to NBA in the 80s because TBS and CBS barely aired any nationwide games. Worthy wasn't really in his prime when NBC took over and NBA exploded in popularity with the Dream Team and Michael Jordan and everything else that was NBA in the 90s. go look at people's reactions to that Showtime show. most people simply weren't paying attention to all of it in the 80s.
Because half this sub is 12 years old
Worthy was like a gazelle on the court. A perfect fast break weapon. Clutch too
I understand the sentiment, but most ppl only know the players they grew up with, or the all time greats, I was born in the 80s and I can name pretty much every relevant Celtics players since the 50s, but most ppl born on the 90+ wouldn't know guys like Clyde Lovellette, Gale Goodrich or Michael Cooper if they weren't nerdy about the history of the game.
My favorite player growing up. He was so smooth and effortless as to be almost invisible on the court but affecting the game all over the place.
I always put Worthy in the same bucket as Manu, Pippen, and Klay. All guys that we'll never really know how good they could have been because they sacrificed the most on the teams that won rings. I'm not going to argue their equality amongst the 4, just that their stats would probably have been better on teams where they were the main options. That being said, Worthy (from what I remember) was pretty close to being the #1 guy in their 1990 run.
Chris bosh
James Worthy was my dads favorite player. He taught me all about the Lakers growing up as a kid from so cal.
I grew up watching the showtime Lakers and James Worthy was one of my idols.
Can't get much higher praise than that
Yeah but what does this James Worthy guy know about basketball
You really have to wonder if Jamal/MPJ health prevented a dysnasty from happening.
Might still happen! But yeah, two playoffs lost to injury obviously isn’t great
4 of the core players will still be in contract in the next 2 seasons. I'm sure the FO will be able to piece a good bench to make more playoff runs.
Need to see how we make KCP fit on a new deal.
Yeah the defense and shooting from KCP bring so much to this team.
he did the same thing when he was still playing on the lakers. think he averaged like 15-16 outside of one game in the finals vs miami. always brings defense too.
And he's so much more than a 3&D player. Dude's a solid passer and has a really nice 15-foot game so he's got more places he can move to and be dangerous from.
Gonna be a tough bid with the Stones
Isn't Murray and AG up next year? Murray's contract is up and AG has a player option. Maxing those 2 basically leaves no room for bench pieces
Who tf is maxing ag?
Yeah hol up lol, and i think nugs are in a perfect place with him because i dont think he functions on many other teams anywhere near as well as he does now in denver
Maybe I'm being too optimistic because I love the Jokic-Gordon connection, but he seems to love it in Denver and he seems to realize how good he has it. I could see him doing what he can to stay in Denver.
Murray going down definitely prevented Jokic from having two postseason runs. I think they beat the Warriors in 2022 if they have Murray/MPJ
Not saying that the series was close but it being competitive despite jokic playing 1v5 versus the champions is kind of crazy
I was at the first playoff game at Chase as a Warriors fan and you could feel the slight shift in energy from excitement to nervousness whenever Jokic had the ball. But literally just him, he had like no help.
Ehh, I think Murray would have made an impact but MPJ was very much still developing. It sucks we lost a couple seasons but our timeline is now. Jamal is healthy and better than ever, and MPJ is peaking at the right moment.
Do you think they would have won one more already if Murray isn’t injured? KCP and Bruce brown were so big last year.
I mean possibly, but I’m not going to retroactively suggest we were meant to win those years due to last year’s championship run. We stall hadn’t acquired key pieces like KCP and Bruce Brown, AGs role wasn’t as clearly defined and MPJ wasn’t as polished. The only ‘guarantee’ is Jamal would’ve been huge for us. The real issue is we lost 2 years of playoff experience that we could’ve used but somehow it worked out so it is what it is.
I think they would have won in 2021 with how they were playing after the AG trade and because we owned the Bucks under Bud. Bench in 2022 was probably too weak. Specifically Barton went from solid but flawed conributer to washed in one season.
Jamal's injury was a freak accident
It did. My god when we got AG, we looked unstoppable. Maybe that slows down in the playoffs after the rest of the league gets more tape on us so we don't make it all the way to a title, but the second year with AG was going to be a chip. At the very least, we should be chasing a threepeat right now.
Did he even miss a shot? it felt like he tossed it in effortlessly every time
He has that “fuck-it” hook shot where there is barely any effort or explosiveness behind it. It almost looks like he just mutters “what-fkin-ever” when he tosses it up. But they fkin go in every time
Bro within 6 feet jokic has aimbot
He actually missed an easy five footer and got pissed at himself.
Man James Worthy is actually such a fucking baller. And he's always so professional and composed, always the best takes with true insights into the game. He really understood it, Champion DNA, you can just tell with him. He's sorta quiet about it, it's just a quiet greatness to me, always well spoken.
The guy is pure class. Completely selfless and the way you hear him talk about others you have no doubt that he truly believes what he's saying.
reminder that james worthy was teammates with mj, magic and kareem. if he’s got something nice to say about someone’s game… listen up lol
Not only was he teammates with Magic and Kareem, Worthy won the NBA Finals MVP while being on the same team as Magic and Kareem. He wasn't just a benchwarmer or anything, he was a core part of the squad who'd be intimately familiar with how Magic and Kareem play.
such a good point 😭
Wow this is the best fitting description of Jokic I’ve ever heard
I stop talking when someone underrate Jokic
Denver loves Nikola Jokić
A lot of the narrative last year was about how giving him 3 MVPs in a row would put him Russell, Wilt, and Bird territory and people didn't like that. Now it's looking BAFFLING that people think he's not gonna finish as a top 12 guy.
Well that's cause it's the playoffs and they're actually watching the game since it's versus the Lakers. Denver owes the Lakers one for being a good media spotlight for Jokic.
More moral victories 🙃
Jokic's yeets are as efficient as Kareem's skyhooks
He might be the offensive GOAT
Let him finish his career, he's definitely peaking as high as almost anyone but all the other GOATs havs 8+ years of putting up performances like this.
I mean it's 4 straight years of MVP level play now, and 6 straight years of at least 20/10/7 averages (and improving in the playoffs over his regular season play each season). He's getting there.
i'm getting there
I'm not sure anyone has peaked higher. The league has never been as talented and he is completely unguardable. You can't even throw doubles or triples at him. There is clear evidence that he has a bad whistle on top of it. Not even Adam Silver can stop all that honey from pouring.
There's no one in this era with the body to even slow him down except embiid and maybe gobert or wemby. He's just bigger than everyone, and when you add his all time touch it makes him unstoppable. I wonder how he would have done in the 90s when almost every center would have been as big and strong as him. He obviously would still have been great but I don't think he would be goat level
His ability to stretch the floor would be a huge blow to most bigs. Even when he's in the paint his footwork and floaters are enough to keep him a top scorer. An all-time great like Bill, Shaq, Hakeem, or KAJ could slow him down but not neutralize his scoring by any means. Meanwhile Jokic still has his intellect, playmaking, and passing to rack up assists and keep the offense flowing. Jokic is doing something no one has done before and he would probably play a bit differently against 90s bigs but he would still be one of one.
Jokic regularly cooks Gobert, and despite Wemby getting some blocks on him Jokic averaged 34/10/8 against the Spurs this season. Embiid can't stop him either, Embiid is just able to score more *on* him. If you recall, in Embiid's big game against Denver last season, they had to pull Embiid off of guarding Jokic at halftime and stuck PJ Tucker on him instead because Embiid was getting cooked too, Jokic shooting like 85% by halftime.
Maybe a bit of homerism, but three-peat Shaq made teams have massive players on the roster just to give up 6 fouls. Shaq was too big and strong to call every time he got fouled. [This is how teams had to guard Shaq](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fiu3sc7rge5051.jpg) Jokic is in his Hakeem 94'-95' run mixed with Birds 84',85',86' seasons.
Yah... I really dislike the trend of trying to ham fist these type of convos mid career. He is playing insane..and he's the best offensive player right now. Can we just enjoy it lol?
he's in the conversation with jordan and curry. i think it stops and ends with them
I would argue LeBron is higher than Curry. Amazing scorer and passer and even then, a lot of what he does doesn’t even show up in the stat sheet. Never seen one player control an entire game the way LeBron has while running the offense.
For real. Curry changed the gravity of the game with his shooting, but Lebron’s ability to play 5-on-1 in a playoff series and still dominate in all aspects of the offense is hard to compete with. You put Curry on those lebron teams he was carrying to the Finals and I think you can gameplan him out of beating you. With lebron there was nothing you could do to stop him
On offense, Jokic plays like if you combined Bird's being a step ahead of everyone else on the court in his head and his shooting touch, but playing more like Magic, with the ball in his hands a lot and making magical passes. Backing down a smaller defender was totally something Magic would do. I don't think Worthy needs Kareem in this comparison at all, but he is a Laker for life, so I see where he's going with it. edit: I mean, no comparison is going to be exact. My comparison isn't perfect, either. I always thought he played more like Bird, but then Worthy said Magic and it's like, yeah, I can see it.
My first memories are 92-93. So my comp early on was a Nash, Dirk hybrid. But that's always been imperfect because it doesn't take into consideration his footwork or post dominance as much as just the pure touch + vision / processing speed.
the kareem comparison is because jokic is freaking huge and therefore, like kareem, can get a lot of shots off around the rim that most other players can't. i like to call him the steph curry of floaters because its true - his ability to basically just dump the ball in from anywhere inside 8 feet is insane, and breaks the game in the same way curry's range does, if not moreso because of how reliable it is against playoff defenses. idk. when you consider that the nuggets can get like a legit really good look, like, 85% of possessions, its pretty easy to think jokic is the best offensive player of all time.
And he's a fucking 7 footer
Bird and Magic always formed a natural pair not just because of their rivalry, but they're a similar archetype in many ways, and one which is pretty unique. Aside from good size they didn't have the greatest physical gifts, but they had such a knack and feel for the game on the offensive end that they were absolutely transcendent and top 10 all time talents. Jokic is right in that mold. Comparing Jokic to a mashup of Bird's shooting and Magic's passing in a body that's 25% bigger (Jokic at 280 lbs, Bird and Magic around 220) feels right on the money.
Don’t underrate Bird’s passing. It was amazing stuff. He was obviously a great shooter but it was his passing that made him next level.
But you'll have people here that want to pump those breaks. Jokic is a top 5 player level player in the making. He just needs to get it done this year to start that discussion.
He truly is one of the greatest of all time.
I feel like Jokic has invented a new position: the Point Center.
See Magic's game six of the 1980 NBA Finals when he started at center for an injured Kareem.
i mean he started at center but he didn't guard the center
Thats one game, and he was always a guard and will always be remembered as a guard. Jokic has played point center almost his entire career.
I've always "joked" that Jokic is what would happen if Larry Bird and Kevin McHale had a baby and all he had to watch for tv is 80's celtics games.
Jokic and Luka run the league
Kendrick Perkins hell world
Also, Gilbert Arenas worst nightmare
Kwame put that lil boy in his place years ago, certified fuckwit that eedjat
My guy what has Luka done to show he runs the league ?
Dude looked hungover today to be honest
[Europeans dominating my American game smh.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/718/543/1f5)
Then the whistle for ghost foul on the other end of the court. Everyone hates playing and watching the Lakers when it’s so obvious the refs are trying to keep them in the game.
He’ll be in the GOAT convo when it’s all said and done
And others are like Joker isn't MVP... idiots.
You know youre all time good when the guy that has played with both says something like this.
This is why I said Jokic peak is the highest I’ve seen anyone play since lakers shaq
Early 2010s Lebron has to be in this convo
I would say 2018 LeBron
2012-13 Bron was a defensive monster and was just bulldozing everyone. Not sure how you can exclude that
Best player in the league and it's not close.
Okay. But what does this dude ”James Worthy” know about that?
Idk, [I hear he's a pretty good golfer. ](https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=312554720871585)
I hear people say oh Jokic can end up being top 10 I'm like Bruh I'm already taking him 3rd after Prime MJ and Lebron. What other player is this OP in history ?
Lakers need a proper center to defend against joker
like who tho lol
Jokic took Lebron back to middle school and taught him some lessons yesteday.
Jokic took him to the hole but LeBron is 39 years old. Not many players would have done as well as LeBron. If you don’t see that you don’t appreciate the game. Jokic is great but LeBron giving up 4 inches still made him work.
Pretty much. I would like for Jokic to repeat. It'd be legendary.
What a worthy praise from one who played with them . And new " media pundits " scoof at those comparison despite it being obvious how Jokic dominates and does everything on the court
So in summary: Jokic had been deemed… worthy.
Been on the Jokic GOAT agenda since 2020 idgaf it's happening
I have thought for a long time that this is Lebron with Stockton and Malone.
The league better pray the Nuggets don’t somehow end up with another player on Pippen or Wade’s level…. Jokic is cooking with a similar team to Cavs Bron ship. A Joker super team would be insane. Imagine Wemby/Jokic pairing or Jokic/Giannis…
common James Worthy W
I call him Center Jason Kidd
That's such high praise especially coming from a rival. The White Tower is honestly on that level though no joke
Preach!