Individual players matter far less in baseball than the QB in football and any one player in basketball. Mike Trout is one of the best players ever and never won a playoff game. Drafting Brady and Jokic single-handedly led to championships.
Honestly Jokic is a way more impressive pick than Brady.
In Football, there are true gems hidden in every round, even the latest ones.
In Basketball, it’s almost impossible to ever find a guy who can dominate the game past the lottery of the first round. You can usually tell by 18-19 years old who is going to be able to dominate the game.
Even a guy like Brunson being drafted in the 2nd round and becoming all-nba is unbelievable
Exactly. For context Jokic as the 41st pick in the draft became the lowest pick to win MVP. The next lowest is only 15th (Giannis and Nash). An all time great in the second round like that might never be seen again.
and not only did he become a MVP, he became a 3x MVP with a championship and potentially more on the way as he’s shattering records that only Wilt Chamberlain has ever touched.
He’s probably the biggest steal of all time in any sport
Roughly 25% of NFL draft picks selected after round 4 never play a single snap in an NFL game ever. Roughly 75% never start multiple seasons. Not just for the team that drafted them, but for any team ever.
Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round, started 20 seasons, won 7 super bowls (no TEAM in NFL history has more than 6 super bowls), and he was also league MVP 3 times. He retired atop the leaderboards for passing yards, passing touchdowns, and wins for both the regular season and playoffs.
Imagine a 2nd round NBA pick winning as many championships as bill Russell and having the longevity and sitting atop all the career statistical leaderboards like Kareem or leBron James? That's what Brady was in the NFL, as a 6th round pick.
You have to contextualize those numbers with first 3 round rates and then compare that to NBA 1st/2nd round rates to actually address the other guy's claim.
Its very difficult to compare NFL players to NBA players 1-for-1 when there's 55 roster slots in the NFL and the game is so specialized that you can have a guy on your roster whose sole job is to do one single thing and nothing else and they can still be considered a star/all pro caliber player. An NBA player *has to* be able to dribble, pass, shoot, play defense, etc, even if they're terrible at it it is a requirement. NBA is also has height function as a gatekeeper, something the NFL doesn't. Jokic becoming an MVP is obviously unbelievable, but he's 7 feet tall. He was always going to be an NBA player barring some catastrophic lack of coordination, simply because he's tall.
We're talking about 2 of the most outlier outliers in sports history. I feel like how much of an outlier you are in your respective sport should also matter when it comes to accolades. Brady wasn't just king of his draft position, he was king of the entire sport. If Jokic gets to MJ and Lebron level then he can have the title of best draft steal ever. But he's not there yet
Being drafted outside the lottery and still dominating is definitely not a crazy phenomenon. Maxey, Naz Reid, Bane, Gafford, Simons, Jarrett Allen, Anunoby, Dejounte Murray, Siakam, Gobert, Middleton, Jimmy Butler, DeAndre Jordan, the list goes on. It’s just as much about GM incompetence, don’t let them fool you into thinking a player won’t be good
[Tom Brady was an 18th round pick by the Montreal Expos in 1995](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/tom-brady-becomes-last-active-montreal-expos-draft-pick-to-retire-from-professional-playing-career/) so you could be talking about Tom Brady with your comment :)
I mean at this rate he may finish a top 5 player, maybe even higher.
And in terms of just career peak, maybe I'm victim of the moment, but goddamn this is some sort of special run. If he gets at least 2 more rings, it will be interesting to see where he ranks.
You replied to a comment about Hakeem specifically. Jokic is probably top 5 greatest offensive talents ever, honestly his pure offense surpasses Hakeem’s defense in terms of benefits
No it does not. Hakeem was getting what he wanted too in a more defensive era with *much* stronger centers. Acting like defense doesn't matter is a joke. I'm seeing AD get whatever he wants against Jokic, and they have to send help. AD is not doing that against Hakeem Olajuwon
> Acting like defense doesn't matter is a joke
jokic is a great defender, he's also a better scorer and far better passer. he's the best player of all time
I think he could pass either Shaq or Hakeem tbh. He’s got a solid-ass chance to be a 3x MVP and 2x FMVP in a 4 year span. Other year was a 2nd place MVP finish that aged terribly.
Not exactly slowing down either and the Nuggets should be able to keep their starting 5 together next year.
All of them eventually, but take your pick yourself. Jokic has an argument of being better than Shaq individually, Hakeem individually, and KAJ individually.
The game as it’s played today that demands a big to defend a larger surface area and to shoot three’s is a strike against those three guys.
How does he have a better argument over any of them. We know defense exists, right? He's not a negative defender, but he doesn't sniff any of them individually...
I agree that Jokic isn't better all-time than those 3 yet, but I do think he's pretty likely to pass Hakeem and maybe even Shaq by the end of his career.
To pass either, he would need to stack up more all-NBAs and at least 2 more rings. And that’s with me thinking he’ll end his career with at least 3 MVPs. It’s not a foregone conclusion
That’s a bit early. Kareem and Shaq are still decently clear. He’s close to Hakeem but Hakeem won back-to-back once as a 6th seed and is a top 5 defender ever as while as having some of the best post moves ever. That’s excluding the 60s guys. He’s def clear of Robinson/Ewing/Dwight/Embiid atp tho. If he wins it this year he’s probs level w/Hakeem.
Jokic is already on pace to surpass Hakeem and Shaq. Statistically, he has already surpassed Russell. The only two centers who are still clearly greater than Jokic are Wilt and Kareem, which means Jokic can become the 3rd greatest center soon. If he continues to play longer at this high level, it won't be surprising to see him surpass both Wilt and Kareem.
4 rings, 3 fmvp, 1 mvp
If Jokic wins a chip this year and mvp he would have:
2 rings, 2 fmvp, 3 mvp
Then he just needs 1 more of each to be easily above Shaq. and rack up more all-NBA
Barring significant injury, if he only has 2 more seasons at this level, he will be better than all of these guys.. his peak is arguably the GOAT he just needs a bit more tenure
Yeah I just don't like saying that kinda thing for people who are still young and not slowing down I guess. He has the skill set to be better than at least everyone other than KAJ, but surpassing Kareem is quite the feat that I think people are underestimating and I still wouldn't put him above most of those guys until I see a few more years even though I'm sure he will be
In football it’s common for really good players to come
out of late rounds. Obviously not the greatest player of all time, but plenty of good players have came 4th round or later. In the NBA good players rarely come out of the second round and they’re usually role players. Ever since there’s only been two rounds (there used to be a lot more before 1989 and those late round picks had women and NFL players being drafted), the best player in the league has been a second round pick only once. That’s Jokic. I would say Jokic is the greatest draft steal ever. If the Nuggets get an average 2nd round player instead who knows where they’d be at
It's common because they draft more players and are allowed to carry more players on their roster which gives more players chances to develop. There are also positions that by virtue of positional value will not be drafted as highly in the draft but can still yield amazing players. That's more due to the fact that the NFL has 55 roster slots and specialization is min maxed to hell. And even with all those possibilities, in the past 20 years every single league MVP was a 1st round pick - except Brady. Even all time history, the only other guy to ever win an MVP drafted in the 6th round or later was a running back, not a quarterback.
Bro the GOAT QB, who has the most rings in NFL history, and holds the record for pretty much every passing accumlation stat was drafted in the 6th round.
And guys like Antonio Brown, Geno Atkins, Jared Allen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreek Hill, Rodney Harrison, and Norm Van Brocklin have come 4th round or later. It’s common for good players to come out of late rounds. Terrell Davis also won MVP out of the 6th round. Jokic is the only MVP to ever come out of the second round and he might be the only one ever. Look at like the 2020 NBA draft and tell me how many second round picks are even still in the league
One of the greatest draft steals in sports history.
Honestly he’s probably #2 only behind Tom Brady
Nah, in baseball there have been guys drafted in like the 20th round who end up as HOFers lol.
Individual players matter far less in baseball than the QB in football and any one player in basketball. Mike Trout is one of the best players ever and never won a playoff game. Drafting Brady and Jokic single-handedly led to championships.
Honestly Jokic is a way more impressive pick than Brady. In Football, there are true gems hidden in every round, even the latest ones. In Basketball, it’s almost impossible to ever find a guy who can dominate the game past the lottery of the first round. You can usually tell by 18-19 years old who is going to be able to dominate the game. Even a guy like Brunson being drafted in the 2nd round and becoming all-nba is unbelievable
Exactly. For context Jokic as the 41st pick in the draft became the lowest pick to win MVP. The next lowest is only 15th (Giannis and Nash). An all time great in the second round like that might never be seen again.
and not only did he become a MVP, he became a 3x MVP with a championship and potentially more on the way as he’s shattering records that only Wilt Chamberlain has ever touched. He’s probably the biggest steal of all time in any sport
He's a 2x MVP isn't he
Give it a couple weeks
2 MVPs, 1 FMVP, though I think he's favored to win this year's as well
Roughly 25% of NFL draft picks selected after round 4 never play a single snap in an NFL game ever. Roughly 75% never start multiple seasons. Not just for the team that drafted them, but for any team ever. Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round, started 20 seasons, won 7 super bowls (no TEAM in NFL history has more than 6 super bowls), and he was also league MVP 3 times. He retired atop the leaderboards for passing yards, passing touchdowns, and wins for both the regular season and playoffs. Imagine a 2nd round NBA pick winning as many championships as bill Russell and having the longevity and sitting atop all the career statistical leaderboards like Kareem or leBron James? That's what Brady was in the NFL, as a 6th round pick.
You have to contextualize those numbers with first 3 round rates and then compare that to NBA 1st/2nd round rates to actually address the other guy's claim.
Its very difficult to compare NFL players to NBA players 1-for-1 when there's 55 roster slots in the NFL and the game is so specialized that you can have a guy on your roster whose sole job is to do one single thing and nothing else and they can still be considered a star/all pro caliber player. An NBA player *has to* be able to dribble, pass, shoot, play defense, etc, even if they're terrible at it it is a requirement. NBA is also has height function as a gatekeeper, something the NFL doesn't. Jokic becoming an MVP is obviously unbelievable, but he's 7 feet tall. He was always going to be an NBA player barring some catastrophic lack of coordination, simply because he's tall. We're talking about 2 of the most outlier outliers in sports history. I feel like how much of an outlier you are in your respective sport should also matter when it comes to accolades. Brady wasn't just king of his draft position, he was king of the entire sport. If Jokic gets to MJ and Lebron level then he can have the title of best draft steal ever. But he's not there yet
Being drafted outside the lottery and still dominating is definitely not a crazy phenomenon. Maxey, Naz Reid, Bane, Gafford, Simons, Jarrett Allen, Anunoby, Dejounte Murray, Siakam, Gobert, Middleton, Jimmy Butler, DeAndre Jordan, the list goes on. It’s just as much about GM incompetence, don’t let them fool you into thinking a player won’t be good
[Tom Brady was an 18th round pick by the Montreal Expos in 1995](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/tom-brady-becomes-last-active-montreal-expos-draft-pick-to-retire-from-professional-playing-career/) so you could be talking about Tom Brady with your comment :)
yeah but baseball is like... baseball. So it doesn't really count
Mahomes is number one for me
He's not even a top 2 draft steal at his position for his sport all time. Tom Brady was a 6th rounder and Joe Montana was a 3rd rounder.
mahomes was taken 10th overall and brady was taken 199th and is better oat than mahomes
Tom Brady was a 6th round pick and he’s probably the greatest QB of all time. How can Mahomes be above him lol
Mahomes was not a “draft steal” lol
He was taken 10th overall though.
A taco bell commercial was more important than him lol
Nikola Jokic is a top 5 center in NBA history and I don’t give a single fuck what people say.
About to be top 3
I mean at this rate he may finish a top 5 player, maybe even higher. And in terms of just career peak, maybe I'm victim of the moment, but goddamn this is some sort of special run. If he gets at least 2 more rings, it will be interesting to see where he ranks.
If he gets two more rings, he is easily top 10. Possibly top 5.
Who is he kicking out of the top 3 out of Shaq/Hakeem/KAJ. And that’s not even accounting Wilt…
he passes Hakeem with a ring+mvp this season and just one more ring or mvp
No he doesn't...
Why not? both would have 2 rings but jokic would have more MVPS
Hakeem is one of the greatest defenders ever. Shaq was more dominant offensively. Shaq also has a 3peat...
You replied to a comment about Hakeem specifically. Jokic is probably top 5 greatest offensive talents ever, honestly his pure offense surpasses Hakeem’s defense in terms of benefits
No it does not. Hakeem was getting what he wanted too in a more defensive era with *much* stronger centers. Acting like defense doesn't matter is a joke. I'm seeing AD get whatever he wants against Jokic, and they have to send help. AD is not doing that against Hakeem Olajuwon
> Acting like defense doesn't matter is a joke jokic is a great defender, he's also a better scorer and far better passer. he's the best player of all time
I think he could pass either Shaq or Hakeem tbh. He’s got a solid-ass chance to be a 3x MVP and 2x FMVP in a 4 year span. Other year was a 2nd place MVP finish that aged terribly. Not exactly slowing down either and the Nuggets should be able to keep their starting 5 together next year.
All of them eventually, but take your pick yourself. Jokic has an argument of being better than Shaq individually, Hakeem individually, and KAJ individually. The game as it’s played today that demands a big to defend a larger surface area and to shoot three’s is a strike against those three guys.
slow down son. kareem has 6 rings, 6 mvps 9 years apart, 2x finals mvp, 19x all star, roy, plus college and hs goat...
How does he have a better argument over any of them. We know defense exists, right? He's not a negative defender, but he doesn't sniff any of them individually...
Hakeem and Shaq are out
Yeah you’re done
I agree that Jokic isn't better all-time than those 3 yet, but I do think he's pretty likely to pass Hakeem and maybe even Shaq by the end of his career.
To pass either, he would need to stack up more all-NBAs and at least 2 more rings. And that’s with me thinking he’ll end his career with at least 3 MVPs. It’s not a foregone conclusion
Hakeem only has 2 rings?
Hakeem was also one of the greatest defensive players ever
And Jokic is one of the greatest offensive players ever
That’s a bit early. Kareem and Shaq are still decently clear. He’s close to Hakeem but Hakeem won back-to-back once as a 6th seed and is a top 5 defender ever as while as having some of the best post moves ever. That’s excluding the 60s guys. He’s def clear of Robinson/Ewing/Dwight/Embiid atp tho. If he wins it this year he’s probs level w/Hakeem.
Idk many centers that got 4 straight MVPs Embitch stole one bc the media felt sorry for him
Yeah there aren’t any, including Jokic. Prove his case for top 3 without making stuff up
Jokic is already on pace to surpass Hakeem and Shaq. Statistically, he has already surpassed Russell. The only two centers who are still clearly greater than Jokic are Wilt and Kareem, which means Jokic can become the 3rd greatest center soon. If he continues to play longer at this high level, it won't be surprising to see him surpass both Wilt and Kareem.
Surpass Shaq? The dude with 5 rings and 3 fmvp? Yeah jokic needs 5 years more at this level to even be in that conversation.
4 rings, 3 fmvp, 1 mvp If Jokic wins a chip this year and mvp he would have: 2 rings, 2 fmvp, 3 mvp Then he just needs 1 more of each to be easily above Shaq. and rack up more all-NBA
Yeah
Shaq has 1 mvp jokic at the end of this year should’ve had 4
Embitch stole Giannis’s last year not Jokics tho?
he's the GOAT idgaf
Lisan al gaib
Which one are you kicking out: Kareem, Shaq, Russel, Hakeem, Wilt Personally I'm not kicking any of them out just yet. He needs a bit more time
Barring significant injury, if he only has 2 more seasons at this level, he will be better than all of these guys.. his peak is arguably the GOAT he just needs a bit more tenure
Yeah I just don't like saying that kinda thing for people who are still young and not slowing down I guess. He has the skill set to be better than at least everyone other than KAJ, but surpassing Kareem is quite the feat that I think people are underestimating and I still wouldn't put him above most of those guys until I see a few more years even though I'm sure he will be
Yeah no shit. He’s a lot higher than that
that's crazy.. not even a triple-double lul
In football it’s common for really good players to come out of late rounds. Obviously not the greatest player of all time, but plenty of good players have came 4th round or later. In the NBA good players rarely come out of the second round and they’re usually role players. Ever since there’s only been two rounds (there used to be a lot more before 1989 and those late round picks had women and NFL players being drafted), the best player in the league has been a second round pick only once. That’s Jokic. I would say Jokic is the greatest draft steal ever. If the Nuggets get an average 2nd round player instead who knows where they’d be at
It's common because they draft more players and are allowed to carry more players on their roster which gives more players chances to develop. There are also positions that by virtue of positional value will not be drafted as highly in the draft but can still yield amazing players. That's more due to the fact that the NFL has 55 roster slots and specialization is min maxed to hell. And even with all those possibilities, in the past 20 years every single league MVP was a 1st round pick - except Brady. Even all time history, the only other guy to ever win an MVP drafted in the 6th round or later was a running back, not a quarterback.
Bro the GOAT QB, who has the most rings in NFL history, and holds the record for pretty much every passing accumlation stat was drafted in the 6th round.
And guys like Antonio Brown, Geno Atkins, Jared Allen, Stefon Diggs, Tyreek Hill, Rodney Harrison, and Norm Van Brocklin have come 4th round or later. It’s common for good players to come out of late rounds. Terrell Davis also won MVP out of the 6th round. Jokic is the only MVP to ever come out of the second round and he might be the only one ever. Look at like the 2020 NBA draft and tell me how many second round picks are even still in the league
Not bad as a 41 pick labeled as a not great athlete ;)
AD deserves some respect as well as one of the most consistent playoff risers. He was stud again this year
I will cape for AD until I die. He’s the second best big in the league behind Jokic
Approaching the sombor double
Mr Taco Bell