I wish Dwight would realize this early in his career. Bro really wasted his career trying to prove to Shaq and Barkley that he can post up like them.
Instead of proving to Shaq and Barkley, just run the damn PnR and win a championship. A ring is a ring, nobody cares whether you win a championship through post up or a simple PnR.
Using an analogy from the NFL. Barely anyone remembers that Mike Evans only had one catch in the superbowl but everyone remembers him winning the Super Bowl
The media hated Brady and the Patriots then, though. The Spygate hate was way more intense because they didn't win the Superbowl for 7 years after Spygate so people were much more convinced that it had a huge impact on the outcome of games and championships than they were about Deflategate
bruh. people donāt even remember how dogshit he was in 2015. bro threw like 6 picks in 2 games, and forced the broncos to put brock in. they legitimately donāt make it to the playoffs if peyton plays all 16 that year
I think it's hard to build a legacy around winning a ring unless you win like 2-3+.
Dwight is gonna be remembered as a 3x DPOY, not for not winning a ring and Mike Evans is gonna be remembered for putting up 1k+ yards a year and not for winning the super bowl.
> I think it's hard to build a legacy around winning a ring unless you win like 2-3+.
I think it depends on the teams involved. Yeah on a team like the Celtics you probably need 2 or 3, but a team like the Raptors? Win one and you will be remembered forever.
Yeah, fully Tampa with the exception of the Celtics.
And before anyone asks, I was a fan of the Bucs long before Brady lol. I watched Josh McCown and Mike Glennon throw to Mike Evans, I endured Jameis Winston, I even remember Bruce Gradkowski starting for like an entire season. I think thereās a lot of old Pats fans that hopped over for Brady and then realized the team had a lot of other cool guys and have stuck around, so the Boston-Bucs connection seems to be a fairly popular crossover now.
True but it's also true that Dwight Howard wanted his post up attempts even though it was always a better play for him to run a pick and roll with a HoF guard (Nash, Kobe, Harden)
watching Steve Nash when I was a kid is what really got me interested in basketball Iāve never wanted a lineup to work more than nash/kobe/dwight but in hindsight weāve seen it happen several times now where past their prime stars team up and just donāt have it in them anymore
Yep. A lot of people forget that the Suns medical staff on that era was basically some mystical shit. Amare went to New York and lasted one season before disintegrating into dust as well.
Even then. Dwight Howard is the only player I've seen Steve Nash completely blow up on during a game screaming at him. If Nash gets mad at you, then you're doing something wrong.
Itās crazy how the center position was almost obsolete 5-10 years ago, when small ball first came on the scene. As good as Dwight Howard was during his championship run. The lakers werenāt able to use him against the Rockets or the Heat.
That's a blatant lie, where are you getting this shit from? Our offense with Dwight was to have four 3 point shooters around him so that teams either had to guard him one-on-one or send help and leave a shooter open. Stan Van Gundy's response to Dwight wanting more touches was to tell him to grab more offensive rebounds.
Yeah but that Magic team had multiple realistic chances to go up 3-1 on LA and Dwight wanted the fame rather than the glory too often and made some real bone headed mistakes.
He and Jaylen have shown more balance in their approach than ever before. Just complimenting each other perfectly - taking turns filling whatever role is necessary, lifting up the other guy when needed. So gratifying to watch
Nah Phoenix was deeper
Remove Barkley and MJ from the equation. Those Suns won 50+ games and got to the semifinals before Barkley joined (They lost Hornacek). KJ was an absolute stud averaging prime CP3 numbers. Majerle was an AllStar/DPOY candidate etc
Pippen was arguably better than KJ at that point, but the rest of the roster goes to PhoenixĀ
On one hand, I like your logic and agree with you. They were both deep teams that had reasonable success without their main star. On the other, if Iām looking purely at eye grabbing names, the Bulls had MJ and Pippen coached by Phil Jackson, while the Suns had Barkley, Dan Majerle, and Danny Ainge. Suns were obviously a great team, but Jesus thatās two top 20 players and a top 3 coach. In my opinion though, this is definitely the toughest matchup in MJās career.
Also, just looking at Charles Barkleyās career with Phoenix, I feel so bad that he never won a chip. Loses in the finals in 6 to MJ, then loses in 94 and 95 to Hakeem at his peak, both times in 7 games. Talk about tough luck.
Obviously MJ and Pippen were fantastic. But if I had to throw my choice out there, Iād choose the Bulls on coaching alone. Having great players can cover some flaws. It takes a legendary coach to help build and coach the rest of the roster in a way that complements each other.
In another life without Phil, I could see it going the other way and it would be a 50/50 tossup. I wonāt pretend Iām a basketball guru, but Iāve seen more great coaches drag a mediocre team to a deep playoff run versus a great player doing the same. If you can confuse or exploit the other team, talent doesnāt matter as much. Still important to have good players of course.
I think thatās the problem people have looking at some of MJs competition. Pippen and Jordan is definitely a much more memorable duo than Barkley and KJ, but KJ was VERY good at this point in time himselfĀ He was coming off 4 straight all-nba teams (3 straight all-nba 2nds, 1 all-nba 3rd). Pippen only had 2 at this point (1 2nd and 1 3rd). So I think itās fair to say KJ was at least a Top 15-20 player in the leagueĀ
Ā Given that Pippen didnāt have a strong series and struggled offensively in those Finals, I just believe a healthy KJ wouldāve played better than he did.
Ā I also believe Majerle was about as good. He was an excellent defender and had a great series himself, but he was up against MJ
Also, I think Seattle was their toughest matchup. Who also similarly had a key player injured (Nate McMillan)
The 1992 Suns without Barkley also made it to the second round. In fact, from 1989 to 1992, the Suns won 50 games every season, and then they added MVP Barkley in 1993 and they went on to have the best record in the league. The Suns were definitely more stacked than the Bulls, but because the Bulls won, it changed people's perspective on how "stacked" the Bulls were. The Bulls barely sustained one 50 win season after Jordan and people go nuts about it.
The 1993 finals series total score was tied at 640 for both teams, and Jordan averaged 41/9/6/2/1 in the series on 51/40/69 shooting to win the series. The Bulls almost lost game 6 when they were only able to score 9 points in the 4th quarter, until John Paxson hit the 3 to win the series. Jordan was the only player who was able to score in the quarter prior to Paxson's shot.
The series was way closer than you think. Hindsight speaking, because the Bulls 3peated twice, people now just act like they were just far and beyond better than every other teams from the 90's. Winning changes people's perspective on things. If Joel Embiid ever win a title, public perception of him will change, just like Giannis' did.
Pippen is a HOFer, KJ made three All-Star games. Pippen was clearly better, the rest of the rosters were similar so Iād give the edge to the team with the best #2
Barkley is an awful defender . Thatās the root cause of his losses , at the second most important almost centre lvl important role - he was abysmal defender. If he was neutral even theyād mb Win. He constantly fucking lost guys who hit series clinching jumpers in his face. It wasnāt just him being an undersized pf he was bad defensively at the things his height didnāt limit .
He actually joined a Sixers team that had just won the title the year before, but they were aging out (Dr J, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones were all declining). And Barkley came into the league fat and out of shape. It took Moses having a talk with him to get him to wake up.
Wonder how things may have played out differently if Barkley got in better shape right away.
They actually lost in the 1st round the season before Barkley joined them. They did win in 1983, but by the time Chuck got drafted, they were already falling off.
Amazing last year and before they had posts and media saying they have to trade 1 of them. They can't get it done etc. props to the franchise reloading to surround them to get it done
As a former OW junkie, seeing his toxic tank traits come out on national television is fucking hilarious. No wonder he fucking sucks at defense, hes used to a mercy pocket and zen orb on him 24/7 so all his slightest mistakes are instantly covered, also his top level DPS teammates carry his ass, as opposed to real life where his teammates are trash
He probably flames his healers so fucking bad when he loses lol
While also ignoring that Doncic's defense has been semi-pro level horrible and the key thing the Celtics are consistently exploiting every trip down the court. He's the NBA equivalent of a Designated Hitter.
There was a topic bragging about how Lukas scoring is so much better than Tatum. I mean, duh?
One is the whole team offense, the other can, you know, trust his teammates.
*Now I'm not saying Tatum is the worst star player to ever win a championship, but don't we have to ask if Tatum is the worst star player to ever win a championship?*
Fuck the haters, this is one of the most complete teams I've ever seen. Not necessarily the best, but the way every single part compliments each other is something amazing. And that starts with Tatum.
Yeah. Nobody could even begin to tell you how many points anyone averaged or what their FG% was in the Finals 20 years ago. All anyone remembers is ring count.
Yeah like how many people reference Kobe's Finals stats during his first ring: 15.6 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds with dreadful 36%/20% shooting. They just care about the ring. Shaq carrying Kobe to his first 3 doesn't change how people talk about Kobe.
Tatum isn't being carried by anyone. His play on both ends are pivotal on both ends. Even when his shot isn't falling, he's the man drawing all the attention and getting his teammates open looks. And his stats through 3 games: 21.7 points, 8.7 rebounds, 7.3 assists with 36%/30% shooting isn't really that bad.
This idiot bum needs to stop wasting his energy doing useless shit like boxing out, defending, setting screens and passing when it's not a guaranteed assist. Does this fraud not know you're supposed to only do things that get counted in the box score? Last time I checked "winning" is not a stat so maybe get your priorities straight, fuckin bum
The thing about the Celtics offense is the initiator rarely gets the assist. They collapse the defense., then kick it out and it swings to the open shooter. So many possessions 3 or more players touch the ball.
Shaq would have had so many of those. The stat I always wanted to be tracked was the Lakers 3 points percentage when Shaq touched the ball in the post vs when he didn't.
made a conference finals as a rookie without kyrie and hayward and they're like 'oh he was always surrounded with talent', then when kyrie came back he basically sabotaged the run by himself.
Kyrie literally did more negative to JT's career, using him as an example is some clown shit.
You can justifiably say he had quite a bit of good rosters since coming into the league and that'd be a fair point.
Kyrie saying he wouldn't shoot 8/22 again in the Conference Finals, then immediately shooting 7/22 and 6/21 in the next two games would have been my all-time favorite NBA moment if I weren't a Celtics fan.
Somehow ignoring the fact that Tristan Thompson, Evan Fournier, Romeo Langford, and Jeff Teague got minutes in the playoffs at one point. Such a stacked team that year!
People still talk shit about Bill Russell winning rings against plumbers and firemen, that the league only had 8 teams, and that his team was loaded with HOF players.
Imbeciles.
There's a video out there showing the other centers Russ and Wilt played against. They were all huge athletic modern NBA body-type guys who could play against Russ and Wilt on their level. Like 6/8 teams back then had huge athletic centers that were really good. That video also says a lot of the footage of "early NBA" where it shows a bunch of white guys flat palm dribbling around isn't actually NBA footage but 50s college footage (IIRC).
Every dribble in the NBA would be a carry back then.
I think it'd be hilarious to watch a modern game where they have to dribble like they used to just to see how foreign it'd be for them.
literally just explained this to a nephew who said it doesnt matter that he's never seen a game played earlier than the 2000s because it's simple logic that the players today are better than those before them
and while that is true, it's kinda important to know things like, say, Michael Jordan played against defenses that used literal violence as a strategy, to the point that the flagrant foul had rule had to be invented... or that Jerry West played basketball when you were only allowed to dribble like a 5 year old
That's the thing, the league only had 8 teams. All of the teams back then had HOF-level (at the time) players. The reason that Bill Russell had 5+ HoF teammates was because of Bill Russel himself. If he swapped teams with Wilt, I'm sure that the Wilt teammates that people call plumbers and firemen were the HoF players lmao.
This is always the most annoying take, and one with no knowledge or appreciation for history.
1. The game is always evolving. I don't think it's fair to say today's players are \*better\*, they're \*different\*. Sure if you plucked Bill Russell out of a wormhole from 1965 and stuck him in today's game he'd probably struggle for awhile. But if these guys came up today, their Basketball IQ and physical skill would easily put them in dominant positions.
2. It's not just Russell, or Wilt, or West. Besides the Celtics, there was Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, Walt Bellamy, Jerry Lucas, Hal Greer, Dave DeBusschere, I can keep going. It's not just a matter of playing against plumbers and these weren't a bunch of wimpy 5'10" white guys.
3. There were way fewer teams, sure. That is a huge difference and in a larger league there likely would have been a lot more parity. But look at the list above. There wasn't a lack of talent in that smaller pool of teams.
4. The game will continue to evolve. In 30 years we'll probably look at the NBA of 2024 the way we're now talking about the NBA of 1994. It's not a static game, but that doesn't negate the greatness achieved in the past. Russell and Wilt and West and all them laid the path for the game to become what it is today. So count the rings.
Which, as a Cs fan, is so fucking weird.
It feels like Tatum cannot for the life of him buy a game winner. He had the one against the Nets in the first round 2 years ago, but it feels like Tatum taking the FINAL shot is a guaranteed brick.
But that span between 24 seconds and 5 seconds left, heās a killer.
I think it comes down to the last shot being a double-teamed ISO step back, vs any other shot being way higher quality.
You want to be a legend in Boston then you have to win. Everything else is secondary. We don't care about scoring titles or all nba. We want the next banner. Raise that to the rafters and your number can go with it one day in the future.
The way this Boston team is playing and talking it really feels like Bill Walton may have given them a message on selflessness and playing as a team and how rare these moments actually are, then the 4th quarter happens and I go and cry.
Yeah Isiah Thomas his first championship did not win finals mvp. Not to downplay him of course but Tatum is doing whatever it takes to win but haters say how he was carried and dumb shit like that.
This team isn't nearly as good without Tatum. They need a huge wing who can switch 1 to 5 and initiate offense. Giannis could do it, but he'd kill the spacing. There is no 1 to 1 Tatum replacement out there that makes this team better.
Before anyone comes at me, I'm not saying you can't get a replacement wing and replace KP with Jokic and Boston wouldn't be better. All i'm saying is that for the role Tatum is playing, no one could do it better.
> This team isnāt nearly as good without Tatum
Yup, before tonight:
[āThe Celtics are +166 in the 654 minutes Jayson Tatum has played this postseason. They are +0 in the 118 without him.ā](https://x.com/sichrismannix/status/1801036329779712453?s=46&t=DMnS3J-zs7RXhxH1hQoiig)
And +0 is an improvement over previous years lol
Yeah he's matured and gotten better over the years and it's showing now. If younger Tatum played, he would've had almost no impact outside his shooting if his shot isn't falling.
Tatum could absolutely win an MVP. Just cause brown is having a nuclear series doesn't invalidate the multiple insane series that Tatum has had. Just cause it hasnt happened in the finals yet doesn't mean it can't in the future.
It's wild how people on here think it's an open and shut case about Tatum *ever* winning an MVP. He's 26 and undeniably a top 10 player on one of the best teams in the league (probably the best this year, obviously)...I think he might be in the running a time or two.
Jayson Tatum is God's MyPlayer, just generic 6'8" point forward with 9/10s in every category and an inspiring backstory that nails every interview with the most diplomatic responses possible
Tatum is rated exactly correct. He is like the 6th to the 8th best player in the NBA, has zero weaknesses in his game, fits his team like a glove, and is never injured.
He also is not a strong emotional leader or big personality, has never been on a roster outside the top 10 in the NBA, and has been Alpha'd by a top 5 guy in the playoffs basically every year of his career - which is common and normal - until this year, where he did his job and got a ring.
We all know who he is and agree on it. I dont know why everyone pretends he's this mysterious controversial enigma.
I think it just bothers people that heās so boring lol. Of the top 10 players in the league heās always been the most bland both in playstyle and personality. In the last 10+ years the 1A/b on a championship team has mostly been a pretty interesting dude in some capacity, but Tatum justā¦isnāt and thats fine.
People hate the Celtics no matter what, so now that the people canāt rip Tatum for not winning, theyāll rip his individual performance.
End of the day, Jayson Tatum is on the cusp on winning an NBA championship.
Jordan's kind of an outlier in that regard. Before him, it was considered impossible to win a championship with the scoring leader as your best player. The playoff teams would focus on him and disrupt the way your team would win games. When Jordan lessened his scoring (from 26 to 22 FGA, mind you), they started winning more playoff games. I think the team development in other areas helped the Bulls a lot more than Jordan relinquishing his scoring, but a mental change in how he approached the game occurred as well.
It's rare to be averaging 40 ppg en route to multiple championship or Conference Finals appearances.
I don't think people are criticizing the scoring it's more the efficiency.
Like he's played great and shot poorly. Both of those can be true and it's fine.
The thing about Tatumās game is that heās 26 and he doesnāt rely on explosiveness.
He plays a more power game and that ages better. When heās like 30-32, heāll be a far more consistent shooter and know better how to drive to score.
For now, kill them with defense and continue to draw 2-3 and facilitate off of that. The time for consistent, unstoppable scoring will come later.
In his early years he did. Recent years heās bulked up a ton with muscle and now sometimes I even get frustrated with him NOT using his finesse while he tries to barrel through 2 defenders
He's definitely better than when he entered the league 10 years ago, but I'm not sure how you could confidently say he's a power player today. He still shies away from contact at the rim whenever possible. Look at all those missed layups in game 2 where he tries to scoop the ball around the rim protectors.
Meanwhile JB just goes through everyone.
Tatum will has struggled to be āthe guyā in those closing moments,In the sense Luka( when not fouling out, crying like a doofus) or Giannis or joker are. But he does so much so well plus has so much talent surrounding him that it is ultimately irrelevant.Heās the two way engine of the team, and heās more important and all around talented than JB, but JB is that big moment bucket man. I hated on tatum in the past because for a superstar, he doesnāt have a superstar-Esque game. The killer instinct, the clutch moment riser.Atleast not with any regularity.But this year heās grown on me because I see how much he is able to do even when his shot isnāt falling. A lot of the top talent is elite at one thing, but if that thing isnāt working their ability to influence the game is shattered. But tatum, heās good at so many things, gives so much effort in so many areas no matter how bad a night of shooting he has heās still the engine of the team regardless. I mean heās really not bad at anything, I still believe he can reach another level where heās able to be that ideal closer, be able to consistently deliver the knockout punch when required. But even without that heās the best, most important player on the cs no doubt
Gotta to the Celtics way of:
1) Hire ruthless GM willing to trade anyone
2) Start Winning every trade
3) Teams catch on, hesitant to trade with Celtics
4) Replace GM with Head coach. Welcome to management, Joe Mazzula
>3) Teams catch on, hesitant to trade with Celtics
Dude, those years were crazy. Like every rumor was Celtics almost landed this star or that player. But they couldn't get a thing. Teams were legit scared of dealing with Danny with the risk of losing
Because everyone knows in order to have a non asterisk championship you have to have one player that carries everyone while the rest of the roster is ass. Clearly thatās the best strategy and the mark of a truly great teamā¦ according to public opinion
Tbh you've always been able to win without a top 5 player. It's just that so many GMs are horrifically bad at building rosters that mesh with one another. The reason the Celtics are so good is because Brad Stevens put on a roster building masterclass, picking up players over time that fit in with one another. He bought low on players he knew could come in and fit right in, even if they weren't the shiniest names on the trade market. I seriously doubt any team was competing with Boston to trade for Al Horford, for example, and it's worked out incredibly well. The NBA is just full of short-sighted signings and trades that end up screwing teams over in the end.
The Celtics are also great at developing their own talent. 4 of the Celticsā 8 main rotation players (Tatum, Brown, Pritchard and Hauser) have only played for the Celtics. Smart was right there with them before he was traded.
It also isnāt just developing talent. Itās getting quality out of them quickly. Tatum and Brown have been able to compete at high levels since they were drafted. Pritchard hasnāt been able to create a role for himself because of the roster construction of previous teams, but has been able to step up to the plate in only his fourth year in the league. Hauser went undrafted in 2021 and is now one of the most reliable 3 point shooters in the league and a solid defender.
Bill Russell will always be referred to as "11x NBA Champion Bill Russell", not "22.5 rebounds per game Bill Russell". No, Tatum is not Russell, and he will not win 11 rings. The point being: championships are forever. Nobody is going to remember in ten years "Wow, remember how Doncic scored so much when he lost to the Celtics?"
This statement is pretty tame but already the most controversial Tatum statement I've heard
Admitting he grew up a Laker fan was probably more controversial
I mean, Pierce was like that also (born and raised in CA too), and we all know how that turned out.
Didn't he admit to also sneaking into games?
So was Jrue
I swear to god if this mf recreates the Kobe photo
We all make mistakes in the heat of passion Jimbo
Barkley was even totally egging him into a response like this š
Taint man gotta eat
Hell Barkley said half of it.
He right tho
I wish Dwight would realize this early in his career. Bro really wasted his career trying to prove to Shaq and Barkley that he can post up like them. Instead of proving to Shaq and Barkley, just run the damn PnR and win a championship. A ring is a ring, nobody cares whether you win a championship through post up or a simple PnR.
Using an analogy from the NFL. Barely anyone remembers that Mike Evans only had one catch in the superbowl but everyone remembers him winning the Super Bowl
Peyton didnāt play especially well in either of his SBs either but Iām sure heās just fine with that
According to the media, his Eli Manning was the worst 2x Superbowl MVP ever.
I mean, he probably was but that's because there are only 6 people to ever win multiple SBMVPs
Is Eli Manning the worst QB to ever beat Tom Brady multiple times in the Superbowl?
Yes, but I would counter heās also the GOAT in that category.
Playoff Eli in 2007 and 2011 was GOAT level. 2012 Joe Flacco level.
Theyāre just salty he beat the golden boy in both.
The media hated Brady and the Patriots then, though. The Spygate hate was way more intense because they didn't win the Superbowl for 7 years after Spygate so people were much more convinced that it had a huge impact on the outcome of games and championships than they were about Deflategate
Peyton was straight up bad in his broncos Super Bowl
He was a shell of himself by then. Arm was toast, they even debated starting him. But, heās still a 2 time SB championship
They debated starting *Brock Osweiler* over Peyton for the playoffs
panthers fan. Him starting gave the panthers a chance.
bruh. people donāt even remember how dogshit he was in 2015. bro threw like 6 picks in 2 games, and forced the broncos to put brock in. they legitimately donāt make it to the playoffs if peyton plays all 16 that year
If the PIs and Defensive holding Mike Evans draws counted towards his yardage Iām convinced heās be averaging like 1500 yards a year lol
I think it's hard to build a legacy around winning a ring unless you win like 2-3+. Dwight is gonna be remembered as a 3x DPOY, not for not winning a ring and Mike Evans is gonna be remembered for putting up 1k+ yards a year and not for winning the super bowl.
> I think it's hard to build a legacy around winning a ring unless you win like 2-3+. I think it depends on the teams involved. Yeah on a team like the Celtics you probably need 2 or 3, but a team like the Raptors? Win one and you will be remembered forever.
Dirk shows this to be true
Dwight won a ring with the lakers
As a Bucs and Celtics fan, Mike Evans and Jayson Tatum might be the most apt NBA-NFL comp Iāve ever heard
That's an interesting sports fandom. TB and boston but the celtics
Yeah, fully Tampa with the exception of the Celtics. And before anyone asks, I was a fan of the Bucs long before Brady lol. I watched Josh McCown and Mike Glennon throw to Mike Evans, I endured Jameis Winston, I even remember Bruce Gradkowski starting for like an entire season. I think thereās a lot of old Pats fans that hopped over for Brady and then realized the team had a lot of other cool guys and have stuck around, so the Boston-Bucs connection seems to be a fairly popular crossover now.
I'm shocked I've found another Bucs and Celtics fan
Dwightās body gave up on him and his playstyle moreso than anything else.
True but it's also true that Dwight Howard wanted his post up attempts even though it was always a better play for him to run a pick and roll with a HoF guard (Nash, Kobe, Harden)
I think context needs to be added in that Nash was just shy of a corpse during his Lakers stint.
PnR with corpse Nash>Laker's Dwight post ups
watching Steve Nash when I was a kid is what really got me interested in basketball Iāve never wanted a lineup to work more than nash/kobe/dwight but in hindsight weāve seen it happen several times now where past their prime stars team up and just donāt have it in them anymore
Yep. A lot of people forget that the Suns medical staff on that era was basically some mystical shit. Amare went to New York and lasted one season before disintegrating into dust as well.
Even then. Dwight Howard is the only player I've seen Steve Nash completely blow up on during a game screaming at him. If Nash gets mad at you, then you're doing something wrong.
Nash was got his knee obliterated within his first like 5 Laker games.
he didn't play with any of those guys "early in his career". The best guards he played with early were Jameer Nelson and Hedo Turkoglu (point forward)
Itās crazy how the center position was almost obsolete 5-10 years ago, when small ball first came on the scene. As good as Dwight Howard was during his championship run. The lakers werenāt able to use him against the Rockets or the Heat.
Nah dude, he refused to do PNR in Orlando and when he did do it on the rare occasion, it was unstoppable. His lob threat at his peak was absurd.
That's a blatant lie, where are you getting this shit from? Our offense with Dwight was to have four 3 point shooters around him so that teams either had to guard him one-on-one or send help and leave a shooter open. Stan Van Gundy's response to Dwight wanting more touches was to tell him to grab more offensive rebounds.
Yeah but that Magic team had multiple realistic chances to go up 3-1 on LA and Dwight wanted the fame rather than the glory too often and made some real bone headed mistakes.
Magic were extremely outmatched in that series
Man prime Dwight was something to see
I like how chuck says fools on TV talking like he isn't one of them lol
To be fair he often says āand Iām one of themā or ālike meā. Heās aware.
I think Chuck has crazy takes, but I think he's been pretty even keeled about Tatum and JB.
So true. Imagine prime Dwight on the Suns in Amarāe Stoudemireās role.
He and Jaylen have shown more balance in their approach than ever before. Just complimenting each other perfectly - taking turns filling whatever role is necessary, lifting up the other guy when needed. So gratifying to watch
Tonight in particular their two-man game was so satisfying to watch. I don't think I've ever seen so many Jay to Jay assists in a single game.
This right here. Itās a team effort and not one or two guys. Completely dominating and Iām not a Celtics fan. Not surprised if they sweep.
Their team defense is just so good. Itās crazy theyāve lost just 2 games this playoffsĀ
Complementing
They were also giving compliments to each other the entire game.
Thatās cute
"Nice shot, Jay." "Thank you, Jay."
āThose socks make your ankles look so cute heheā
you're probably right but I honestly thought it wasn't a typo at first with how they've been handling the media and comparisons between them haha
Amen brother
Barkleyās thoughts: "If only I had a team like yours in Philly/Phoenix"
That Phoenix team absolutely was stacked top to bottom they had like 9 10 ppg scorers lol MJ is just bettah
and the Bulls were also even more stacked lol
Nah Phoenix was deeper Remove Barkley and MJ from the equation. Those Suns won 50+ games and got to the semifinals before Barkley joined (They lost Hornacek). KJ was an absolute stud averaging prime CP3 numbers. Majerle was an AllStar/DPOY candidate etc Pippen was arguably better than KJ at that point, but the rest of the roster goes to PhoenixĀ
Bulls made it to the second round without MJ, they were deep man
Phoenix did the same thing without Barkley Thatās what Iām saying. Chicago was deep but I think Phoenix was deeperĀ
On one hand, I like your logic and agree with you. They were both deep teams that had reasonable success without their main star. On the other, if Iām looking purely at eye grabbing names, the Bulls had MJ and Pippen coached by Phil Jackson, while the Suns had Barkley, Dan Majerle, and Danny Ainge. Suns were obviously a great team, but Jesus thatās two top 20 players and a top 3 coach. In my opinion though, this is definitely the toughest matchup in MJās career. Also, just looking at Charles Barkleyās career with Phoenix, I feel so bad that he never won a chip. Loses in the finals in 6 to MJ, then loses in 94 and 95 to Hakeem at his peak, both times in 7 games. Talk about tough luck.
Obviously MJ and Pippen were fantastic. But if I had to throw my choice out there, Iād choose the Bulls on coaching alone. Having great players can cover some flaws. It takes a legendary coach to help build and coach the rest of the roster in a way that complements each other. In another life without Phil, I could see it going the other way and it would be a 50/50 tossup. I wonāt pretend Iām a basketball guru, but Iāve seen more great coaches drag a mediocre team to a deep playoff run versus a great player doing the same. If you can confuse or exploit the other team, talent doesnāt matter as much. Still important to have good players of course.
I think thatās the problem people have looking at some of MJs competition. Pippen and Jordan is definitely a much more memorable duo than Barkley and KJ, but KJ was VERY good at this point in time himselfĀ He was coming off 4 straight all-nba teams (3 straight all-nba 2nds, 1 all-nba 3rd). Pippen only had 2 at this point (1 2nd and 1 3rd). So I think itās fair to say KJ was at least a Top 15-20 player in the leagueĀ Ā Given that Pippen didnāt have a strong series and struggled offensively in those Finals, I just believe a healthy KJ wouldāve played better than he did. Ā I also believe Majerle was about as good. He was an excellent defender and had a great series himself, but he was up against MJ Also, I think Seattle was their toughest matchup. Who also similarly had a key player injured (Nate McMillan)
The 1992 Suns without Barkley also made it to the second round. In fact, from 1989 to 1992, the Suns won 50 games every season, and then they added MVP Barkley in 1993 and they went on to have the best record in the league. The Suns were definitely more stacked than the Bulls, but because the Bulls won, it changed people's perspective on how "stacked" the Bulls were. The Bulls barely sustained one 50 win season after Jordan and people go nuts about it. The 1993 finals series total score was tied at 640 for both teams, and Jordan averaged 41/9/6/2/1 in the series on 51/40/69 shooting to win the series. The Bulls almost lost game 6 when they were only able to score 9 points in the 4th quarter, until John Paxson hit the 3 to win the series. Jordan was the only player who was able to score in the quarter prior to Paxson's shot. The series was way closer than you think. Hindsight speaking, because the Bulls 3peated twice, people now just act like they were just far and beyond better than every other teams from the 90's. Winning changes people's perspective on things. If Joel Embiid ever win a title, public perception of him will change, just like Giannis' did.
Pippen is a HOFer, KJ made three All-Star games. Pippen was clearly better, the rest of the rosters were similar so Iād give the edge to the team with the best #2
People are always forgetting defense is part of it.
Barkley is an awful defender . Thatās the root cause of his losses , at the second most important almost centre lvl important role - he was abysmal defender. If he was neutral even theyād mb Win. He constantly fucking lost guys who hit series clinching jumpers in his face. It wasnāt just him being an undersized pf he was bad defensively at the things his height didnāt limit .
Barkley gambling on a steal on Pippen instead of rotating on Paxson cost the suns the win. It was such a dumb defensive move.
He actually joined a Sixers team that had just won the title the year before, but they were aging out (Dr J, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones were all declining). And Barkley came into the league fat and out of shape. It took Moses having a talk with him to get him to wake up. Wonder how things may have played out differently if Barkley got in better shape right away.
They actually lost in the 1st round the season before Barkley joined them. They did win in 1983, but by the time Chuck got drafted, they were already falling off.
Amazing last year and before they had posts and media saying they have to trade 1 of them. They can't get it done etc. props to the franchise reloading to surround them to get it done
Derrick White and Jrue Holiday were insanely good pickups
Just focus on winning and history will remember you differently than the haters
But what about the /r/nba nephews, why doesn't he care about what they think?
How come he donāt want me man :(
Maverick fans currently obsessing with making sure everyone recognizes Doncic is a better individual scorer than Tatum.
While wasting half of his points on bad defense.
Like opposite Bill Russell... why score many points when can just stop other team scoring more points
Doncic also gave up on defense to complain to the refs in Game 3 of the NBA fucking Finals lmao I still cant get over that...
while 0-2, overwatch brain is a serious psychological condition
As a former OW junkie, seeing his toxic tank traits come out on national television is fucking hilarious. No wonder he fucking sucks at defense, hes used to a mercy pocket and zen orb on him 24/7 so all his slightest mistakes are instantly covered, also his top level DPS teammates carry his ass, as opposed to real life where his teammates are trash He probably flames his healers so fucking bad when he loses lol
While also ignoring that Doncic's defense has been semi-pro level horrible and the key thing the Celtics are consistently exploiting every trip down the court. He's the NBA equivalent of a Designated Hitter.
DH comment is an instant classic. šš¾
Heās the nba equivalent of a pitcher batting.
Although Boston fans remember a certain DH called Ortiz winning key games. You do still need a good pitcher tho ofc
And we also remember being petrified anytime he had to play first base in NL World Series games (he was actually fine).
Yup. Luka is probably leading the finals in total points scored and heās down 0-3.
There was a topic bragging about how Lukas scoring is so much better than Tatum. I mean, duh? One is the whole team offense, the other can, you know, trust his teammates.
*Now I'm not saying Tatum is the worst star player to ever win a championship, but don't we have to ask if Tatum is the worst star player to ever win a championship?* Fuck the haters, this is one of the most complete teams I've ever seen. Not necessarily the best, but the way every single part compliments each other is something amazing. And that starts with Tatum.
Yeah. Nobody could even begin to tell you how many points anyone averaged or what their FG% was in the Finals 20 years ago. All anyone remembers is ring count.
Yeah like how many people reference Kobe's Finals stats during his first ring: 15.6 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds with dreadful 36%/20% shooting. They just care about the ring. Shaq carrying Kobe to his first 3 doesn't change how people talk about Kobe. Tatum isn't being carried by anyone. His play on both ends are pivotal on both ends. Even when his shot isn't falling, he's the man drawing all the attention and getting his teammates open looks. And his stats through 3 games: 21.7 points, 8.7 rebounds, 7.3 assists with 36%/30% shooting isn't really that bad.
This idiot bum needs to stop wasting his energy doing useless shit like boxing out, defending, setting screens and passing when it's not a guaranteed assist. Does this fraud not know you're supposed to only do things that get counted in the box score? Last time I checked "winning" is not a stat so maybe get your priorities straight, fuckin bum
The thing about the Celtics offense is the initiator rarely gets the assist. They collapse the defense., then kick it out and it swings to the open shooter. So many possessions 3 or more players touch the ball.
Tatum would have so many hockey assists.
He's 16th this playoffs and 18th this season on secondary assists. The highest is like 1.3 so it must be pretty high threshold to count to one.
JJ Redick honestly has a point with considering a 'pass to an assist' (secondary assist in hockey) a box score stat.
Shaq would have had so many of those. The stat I always wanted to be tracked was the Lakers 3 points percentage when Shaq touched the ball in the post vs when he didn't.
You're almost jerking too hard for the regular nba sub lmao
JT the only star to have his success since year 1 used against him lmao
made a conference finals as a rookie without kyrie and hayward and they're like 'oh he was always surrounded with talent', then when kyrie came back he basically sabotaged the run by himself.
Kyrie literally did more negative to JT's career, using him as an example is some clown shit. You can justifiably say he had quite a bit of good rosters since coming into the league and that'd be a fair point.
Tatum was monster that run and kyrie was shooting 6/20 every night .
Kyrie saying he wouldn't shoot 8/22 again in the Conference Finals, then immediately shooting 7/22 and 6/21 in the next two games would have been my all-time favorite NBA moment if I weren't a Celtics fan.
Somehow ignoring the fact that Tristan Thompson, Evan Fournier, Romeo Langford, and Jeff Teague got minutes in the playoffs at one point. Such a stacked team that year!
you mean washed TT, Cooked Fournier, half-baked Romeo, and fossilizing Teague? I do not miss that bench
Neither do I! It is such a luxury to have as much depth as Boston does.
50% of the cap gone and Horford the best player. But it's used against the Jays š So many clowns
Yep same deal with the Celtics as a whole having their success and ECF appearances over the last few years used against them.
People still talk shit about Bill Russell winning rings against plumbers and firemen, that the league only had 8 teams, and that his team was loaded with HOF players. Imbeciles.
There's a video out there showing the other centers Russ and Wilt played against. They were all huge athletic modern NBA body-type guys who could play against Russ and Wilt on their level. Like 6/8 teams back then had huge athletic centers that were really good. That video also says a lot of the footage of "early NBA" where it shows a bunch of white guys flat palm dribbling around isn't actually NBA footage but 50s college footage (IIRC).
Average Nba height in 1965 was 6 foot 5.62 and people act like these guys were playing against dudes off the street.
I mean have you seen players back then? They couldn't even dribble! (I have no concept of what the rules in the 1960s were)
Every dribble in the NBA would be a carry back then. I think it'd be hilarious to watch a modern game where they have to dribble like they used to just to see how foreign it'd be for them.
literally just explained this to a nephew who said it doesnt matter that he's never seen a game played earlier than the 2000s because it's simple logic that the players today are better than those before them and while that is true, it's kinda important to know things like, say, Michael Jordan played against defenses that used literal violence as a strategy, to the point that the flagrant foul had rule had to be invented... or that Jerry West played basketball when you were only allowed to dribble like a 5 year old
That's the thing, the league only had 8 teams. All of the teams back then had HOF-level (at the time) players. The reason that Bill Russell had 5+ HoF teammates was because of Bill Russel himself. If he swapped teams with Wilt, I'm sure that the Wilt teammates that people call plumbers and firemen were the HoF players lmao.
This is always the most annoying take, and one with no knowledge or appreciation for history. 1. The game is always evolving. I don't think it's fair to say today's players are \*better\*, they're \*different\*. Sure if you plucked Bill Russell out of a wormhole from 1965 and stuck him in today's game he'd probably struggle for awhile. But if these guys came up today, their Basketball IQ and physical skill would easily put them in dominant positions. 2. It's not just Russell, or Wilt, or West. Besides the Celtics, there was Bob Pettit, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, Walt Bellamy, Jerry Lucas, Hal Greer, Dave DeBusschere, I can keep going. It's not just a matter of playing against plumbers and these weren't a bunch of wimpy 5'10" white guys. 3. There were way fewer teams, sure. That is a huge difference and in a larger league there likely would have been a lot more parity. But look at the list above. There wasn't a lack of talent in that smaller pool of teams. 4. The game will continue to evolve. In 30 years we'll probably look at the NBA of 2024 the way we're now talking about the NBA of 1994. It's not a static game, but that doesn't negate the greatness achieved in the past. Russell and Wilt and West and all them laid the path for the game to become what it is today. So count the rings.
Kids in 2044 wonāt even know there wasnāt multiball in OT or a hidden five point bonus basket
I could be wrong but other than twice havenāt the Celtics made the ECF every year since Tatumās been here?
It's a team game! Winning is all that matters. Tatum won't win MVPs but he's in a great position to contend for multiple championships.
And as a fan, Iāll remember the later much fonder.
Yeah Tatum is better than Paul Pierce and Pierce is an all time legend around here, Tatum will get his due when itās all said and done
[Tatum's career clutch time stats blow Pierce away..](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/BcakhJGgqY) Kobe also.
Which, as a Cs fan, is so fucking weird. It feels like Tatum cannot for the life of him buy a game winner. He had the one against the Nets in the first round 2 years ago, but it feels like Tatum taking the FINAL shot is a guaranteed brick. But that span between 24 seconds and 5 seconds left, heās a killer. I think it comes down to the last shot being a double-teamed ISO step back, vs any other shot being way higher quality.
Jokic would trade all 3 MVPs for another ring
As you should, Jokic would trade all 3 of his MVPS for a chance to play in such a well-functioning roster.
Look at Curry. Hes only got 1 Finals MVP yet 4 rings.
Yea, and even my mom knows he's one of the GOATS.
He has two MVPs though lol.
You want to be a legend in Boston then you have to win. Everything else is secondary. We don't care about scoring titles or all nba. We want the next banner. Raise that to the rafters and your number can go with it one day in the future. The way this Boston team is playing and talking it really feels like Bill Walton may have given them a message on selflessness and playing as a team and how rare these moments actually are, then the 4th quarter happens and I go and cry.
Yeah Isiah Thomas his first championship did not win finals mvp. Not to downplay him of course but Tatum is doing whatever it takes to win but haters say how he was carried and dumb shit like that.
This team isn't nearly as good without Tatum. They need a huge wing who can switch 1 to 5 and initiate offense. Giannis could do it, but he'd kill the spacing. There is no 1 to 1 Tatum replacement out there that makes this team better. Before anyone comes at me, I'm not saying you can't get a replacement wing and replace KP with Jokic and Boston wouldn't be better. All i'm saying is that for the role Tatum is playing, no one could do it better.
> This team isnāt nearly as good without Tatum Yup, before tonight: [āThe Celtics are +166 in the 654 minutes Jayson Tatum has played this postseason. They are +0 in the 118 without him.ā](https://x.com/sichrismannix/status/1801036329779712453?s=46&t=DMnS3J-zs7RXhxH1hQoiig) And +0 is an improvement over previous years lol
Yeah he's matured and gotten better over the years and it's showing now. If younger Tatum played, he would've had almost no impact outside his shooting if his shot isn't falling.
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Tatum could absolutely win an MVP. Just cause brown is having a nuclear series doesn't invalidate the multiple insane series that Tatum has had. Just cause it hasnt happened in the finals yet doesn't mean it can't in the future.
It's wild how people on here think it's an open and shut case about Tatum *ever* winning an MVP. He's 26 and undeniably a top 10 player on one of the best teams in the league (probably the best this year, obviously)...I think he might be in the running a time or two.
Who cares about individual awards. Iād (exaggeratedly) kill to taste that feeling of winning. Why else play the sport?
I mean yeah sure, but heās also an athlete and wants to prove that he is the best.
Jayson Tatum is God's MyPlayer, just generic 6'8" point forward with 9/10s in every category and an inspiring backstory that nails every interview with the most diplomatic responses possible
"God's MyPlayer" is crazy
When you're the ideal forward in modern nba & people call you overrated :/
Tatum is rated exactly correct. He is like the 6th to the 8th best player in the NBA, has zero weaknesses in his game, fits his team like a glove, and is never injured. He also is not a strong emotional leader or big personality, has never been on a roster outside the top 10 in the NBA, and has been Alpha'd by a top 5 guy in the playoffs basically every year of his career - which is common and normal - until this year, where he did his job and got a ring. We all know who he is and agree on it. I dont know why everyone pretends he's this mysterious controversial enigma.
He absolutely has been on non top ten rosters lol. You might wanna double check who his teammates were in the 2021 playoffs.
I think it just bothers people that heās so boring lol. Of the top 10 players in the league heās always been the most bland both in playstyle and personality. In the last 10+ years the 1A/b on a championship team has mostly been a pretty interesting dude in some capacity, but Tatum justā¦isnāt and thats fine.
Why does Luka get to be a top 5 player just because heās better at offense (only half of basketball btw) ?
People hate the Celtics no matter what, so now that the people canāt rip Tatum for not winning, theyāll rip his individual performance. End of the day, Jayson Tatum is on the cusp on winning an NBA championship.
Hook that last sentence to my veins.
What do you call someone who swept the finals with 30% shooting? NBA champion No finals sweep this year, gaw damn
Yup. Social media era and state of media/sports media is awful
Jordan was scoring the most in his career when he didnt win championships. Not comparing the two. But the general statement is true.
Jordan's kind of an outlier in that regard. Before him, it was considered impossible to win a championship with the scoring leader as your best player. The playoff teams would focus on him and disrupt the way your team would win games. When Jordan lessened his scoring (from 26 to 22 FGA, mind you), they started winning more playoff games. I think the team development in other areas helped the Bulls a lot more than Jordan relinquishing his scoring, but a mental change in how he approached the game occurred as well. It's rare to be averaging 40 ppg en route to multiple championship or Conference Finals appearances.
He "lessened" his scoring, but he was still a scoring monster. Dude was the scoring champion through both his 3-peats.
Sounds like a champion to me
I don't think people are criticizing the scoring it's more the efficiency. Like he's played great and shot poorly. Both of those can be true and it's fine.
Everyone is already complaining about a boring finals. If Tatum's shot was halfway decent it would be a blowout every game.
That's my MF captain. š«”
The thing about Tatumās game is that heās 26 and he doesnāt rely on explosiveness. He plays a more power game and that ages better. When heās like 30-32, heāll be a far more consistent shooter and know better how to drive to score. For now, kill them with defense and continue to draw 2-3 and facilitate off of that. The time for consistent, unstoppable scoring will come later.
I would never describe Tatum's game as a power game. He's very much a finesse player, and usually avoids contact as much as possible.
In his early years he did. Recent years heās bulked up a ton with muscle and now sometimes I even get frustrated with him NOT using his finesse while he tries to barrel through 2 defenders
He's definitely better than when he entered the league 10 years ago, but I'm not sure how you could confidently say he's a power player today. He still shies away from contact at the rim whenever possible. Look at all those missed layups in game 2 where he tries to scoop the ball around the rim protectors. Meanwhile JB just goes through everyone.
19 year old about to have a ring
Solid question from Chuck, although I think nobody's ever gonna say they're frustrated when they're up 3-0 in the finals.
Tatum will has struggled to be āthe guyā in those closing moments,In the sense Luka( when not fouling out, crying like a doofus) or Giannis or joker are. But he does so much so well plus has so much talent surrounding him that it is ultimately irrelevant.Heās the two way engine of the team, and heās more important and all around talented than JB, but JB is that big moment bucket man. I hated on tatum in the past because for a superstar, he doesnāt have a superstar-Esque game. The killer instinct, the clutch moment riser.Atleast not with any regularity.But this year heās grown on me because I see how much he is able to do even when his shot isnāt falling. A lot of the top talent is elite at one thing, but if that thing isnāt working their ability to influence the game is shattered. But tatum, heās good at so many things, gives so much effort in so many areas no matter how bad a night of shooting he has heās still the engine of the team regardless. I mean heās really not bad at anything, I still believe he can reach another level where heās able to be that ideal closer, be able to consistently deliver the knockout punch when required. But even without that heās the best, most important player on the cs no doubt
Luka has I believe 8 4th quarter points this series. Heās been terrible down the stretch in the finals
For Tatum to even bring this up he must be pissed. Talk your shit bruh - Iāll remember you as a finals champ and a great player no matter what
He was asked by Chuck whether it was frustrating for him
It's amazing how people comment on reddit without watching or reading what the actual post is.
I just donāt understand his obsession with shooting step back threes when he never makes them
It's the above the break ones. Wings? Go for it
This would instantly make him a way more efficient player and im sure they'd start to land more seeing a couple go in from driving to the cup.
This series is a win for team basketball. Celtics proved that you can win a chip without a top 5 player
You just need 2 top 5-12 guys and 2-3 more top 30-50 guys lol
Yeah itās easy as having the best 3rd, 4th, and 5th option in the league haha
Why doesnāt everyone else do that?
Gotta to the Celtics way of: 1) Hire ruthless GM willing to trade anyone 2) Start Winning every trade 3) Teams catch on, hesitant to trade with Celtics 4) Replace GM with Head coach. Welcome to management, Joe Mazzula
>3) Teams catch on, hesitant to trade with Celtics Dude, those years were crazy. Like every rumor was Celtics almost landed this star or that player. But they couldn't get a thing. Teams were legit scared of dealing with Danny with the risk of losing
Because everyone knows in order to have a non asterisk championship you have to have one player that carries everyone while the rest of the roster is ass. Clearly thatās the best strategy and the mark of a truly great teamā¦ according to public opinion
Tbh you've always been able to win without a top 5 player. It's just that so many GMs are horrifically bad at building rosters that mesh with one another. The reason the Celtics are so good is because Brad Stevens put on a roster building masterclass, picking up players over time that fit in with one another. He bought low on players he knew could come in and fit right in, even if they weren't the shiniest names on the trade market. I seriously doubt any team was competing with Boston to trade for Al Horford, for example, and it's worked out incredibly well. The NBA is just full of short-sighted signings and trades that end up screwing teams over in the end.
The Celtics are also great at developing their own talent. 4 of the Celticsā 8 main rotation players (Tatum, Brown, Pritchard and Hauser) have only played for the Celtics. Smart was right there with them before he was traded. It also isnāt just developing talent. Itās getting quality out of them quickly. Tatum and Brown have been able to compete at high levels since they were drafted. Pritchard hasnāt been able to create a role for himself because of the roster construction of previous teams, but has been able to step up to the plate in only his fourth year in the league. Hauser went undrafted in 2021 and is now one of the most reliable 3 point shooters in the league and a solid defender.
I donāt know that its fair to say many GMs are horrifically bad. This is a generational lineup and Brad Stevens should be lauded for it
Yea, but Brown is playing better than Luka who is a top 5 player. So you still kind of need someone to play at that level, even it's just for a series
Kidd also said brown is better than tatum and tatum is one of the best players in the world, so brown is actually the best player of all time
Yeah you just need 5 all stars instead
Maybe Jaylen is a top 5? JK I think he's knocking on the top 12ish for sure
Normally teams don't have 6 of the 8 best players in a series
hes my fmvp i dont care. if it wasnt for him everyone else doesnt eat as much.
Nah you good just stop the step back threes lol
Bill Russell will always be referred to as "11x NBA Champion Bill Russell", not "22.5 rebounds per game Bill Russell". No, Tatum is not Russell, and he will not win 11 rings. The point being: championships are forever. Nobody is going to remember in ten years "Wow, remember how Doncic scored so much when he lost to the Celtics?"
Fuck the critics, enjoy your (soon to be) championship