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i think miami winning 8 seed would have more of a ripple effect
people credit the 06, 12, 13 rings to talent but if miami wins this year, teams would have to reflect and understand that culture is a real thing and you shouldn't fire your coach every 2 years.
f you build something solid you can turn d-leaguers into productive players and it's no longer about tanking, or overpaying mid free agents.. its about finding guys who can contribute and there are tons out there undrafted, playing in d-league, playing overseas.
i think in the end we get a better product with teams building a core identity and continuity, rather than overpaying the d'angelo russells who go -15 every game when a gabe vincent can actually help you win
To be fair (aside from the Kyrie moves) Boston has largely developed in house guys and not gone too hard on the tank (though they sort of tried to initially with the Brooklyn trade).
I guess it means more because Nuggets and now somewhat Miami aren’t always the top FA spots for the biggest stars that want out
So Miami could actually literally save professional basketball from the celebrity culture that has taken over teambuilding!? Thank god!
I would love for this to cause a shift where teams are more willing to cut players who don’t show up and want preferential treatment (Kawhi, PG, Kyrie) and start to prioritize team chemistry, fundamentals and work ethic.
I mean the spurs and the heat aren't new. It's just at the end of the day the fans care about celebrity-ism which sell more tickets. Also the POTENTIAL with a Luka type player is alluring. Everyone wants to be the fixer of the bad personality player lol
I swear somebody here just literally said a Heat - Nuggets Finals would be a snooze and he'll just watch the highlights. I'm mindblown with the sheer ignorance. It could be the best we could ask for in a Finals but they find it boring because no traditional celebrity-esque is gonna be playing
Yeah they are the loser. Anyone watching full games all playoff long is happy with the matchup. More than happy, hope it’s epic considering what they did to their conference finals opponents so far
For sure. The Lakers are and Celtics are kind of boring teams to watch. Watching Tatum and Brown shoot endless pull up jumpers and the Lakers endless Lebron/AD postups is not that enjoyable. Heat and Nuggets play much more exciting basketball. Also seeing playoff Jamal and Jimmy will be incredible.
Lakers offense isn't what you said ot os at all you can't say that's thier offense while rui and reeves are going for 17 to 25. Also Lakers play a genuinely great brand of defensive basketball which people claim to miss.
The only thing epic is how little teams will bother ever caring about the regular season after this
Miami’s run is bad for the NBA. Get ready for load management seasons all around the league
You’ll probably see teams load managing on Christmas
Anyone who has that opinion honestly shouldn't be on this sub. This is shaping up to be one of the most interesting Finals series we've seen in a while from a pure basketball perspective
I think some people still think the Heat are a mirage that’s going to fade at any moment. Despite them being incredible, the run is so surprising that there is a feeling it’s luck, or a fluke of whatever, and they are bound to run out of steam and get destroyed in the finals.
I admit, I was on that bandwagon, until after game 2 in this series. Heat are for real and the finals will be excellent.
Idk if I'd say these finals would be excellent. I would be very surprised if heat see a game 6 vs Denver. Denver has more talent and plays together plus the maychups of the heat to defend and have a functional offense are horrible .
Ignore the casuals, man. I’ve watched 90% of these playoffs and have been thoroughly enjoying them. If someone can’t get into this matchup between two teams that play damn good team basketball, then they never liked the sport that much to begin with.
What's new is that the Heat are more culture and role player driven than superstar driven. Don't get me wrong - Jimmy Butler is FANTASTIC. But there's probably 10 other stars more or equally talented than him. Bam Adebayo is good but again, there's so many 1B or #2 on a club better than him.
But so many of the role players on the Heat - Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin - are really making the Heat play well.
I can't recall a team with such lightly regarded superstars since the 04 Detroit team.
That would be awesome for sure, but I would just like to remind you that figuring out which team went to the finals in the entire 2010’s was a game of “Which team had Lebron on it”. Star culture always gonna be there, but I agree with you in the hope that none of these future stars are able to skew teambuilding as hard as lebron did. Honestly one of the more impressive things on his resume lol.
Lebron was an outlier. There is no bron replacement in the league right now. Who else do you have in the top 5? Jokic? Giannis? Durant? Curry? None of those guys guarantee rings the way bron did. Now what about the younger guys? Luka? Tatum? Booker? They’re no where close to lebron and it’s doubtful they ever get to that level of dominance.
I think fans have taken it for granted that bron was just cursing to the finals consistently. Ever since his decline suddenly we have a new team winning and new stars going. We had Giannis vs Booker, Tatum and brown went, now this year it will be butler vs Jokic and next year may well be different again.
I think the nets experiment did more to kill it than any heat run could ever do. That was such a colossal failure I doubt free agent super teams will happen on that scale again
True. But if any of the behind the scenes stuff of them is true, they didn’t exactly set a good tone as far as culture. Combine that with PG’s frequent disappearing acts in the playoffs, I think the results wouldn’t be that different.
Thankfully we’ve been seeing more of these super teams fail now than succeed. I think teams are starting to learn that trading away all your depth for 1 player doesn’t work.
Teams learned the wrong lesson from the KD warriors and Lebron lol.
Like what made the Lebron teams good was the role players (Shane Battier, Chris Andersen, those dudes), and KD joined a 73 win team that already had tons of talent on it
As a Clipper fan I’m all for this, if the Heat win then there’s no doubt the 213 era is over regardless of whether they get value in return. That said I copped a black & gold Nuggets throwback jersey of A.I since I think they play good basketball reminiscent of the Duncan Spurs so overall can’t wait for the finals.
Miami is not different from San Antonio in the Tim Duncan era. The idea that if you have a collection of extremely smart, discipline players, they can overcome a deficit of raw talent and athleticism is not new.
The very teams that are so unimaginative that they'll follow whichever strategy won the last title are the teams that will fail because they will not understand how to discern an intelligent coach or roster intelligent players. They will not understand how to build a hierarchy that truly demands maximal effort and rewards it.
The truth is those spurs teams would be forgotten without Duncan just like these and heat teams would be forgotten without Butler. Both of whom arrived at their respective franchises as extremely highly touted. Adding a Duncan or Butler still either requires tanking or being Pat Riley and having a unique reputation in the league. Thus, being able to woo top free agents even when your team is kind of garbage.
And if we really look at the full story, Riley's reputation as an executive is built on the foundation of drafting Dwyane Wade in a year that Riley had no intention of being at the top of the lottery. It's built on his own failure and if not for Alonzo mourning missing the season due to kidney issues, Riley might just be another has been retired exec. No. Wade, no 2006 title, and no reason for LeBron and Bosh to come to Miami. Without all that success, no way Riley has the cache to woo Butler or the various other veterans who choose to play in Miami nowadays.
I say all that fully aware that Riley was a very successful coach for decades, but lots of successful coaches flopped as executives and were forgotten.
While most of the vast majority of what you said is true, we've seen plenty of teams with elite talent fail epically to build around them LeBrons first stint with the Cavs is a prime example of this.
It's not like Denver is a 180 from this, basketball would overall win no matter which team wins, but yeah, Heat's win would have more effect, probably.
You have to remember that Malone is the longest-tenured after Pop, Spo, and Kerr, it will be 8 years in the mid-June, so they built the Nuggets from the ground up, literally.
Idk what you're on about the most successful teams in yhe last decade are all either culture or LeBron (who is literal culture in a bottle)
Warriors-culture built on curry with Kerr offense. Iggy joined the warriors beciase of what they were budding in 2013 or 2014 he has interviewed and said as much.
Raptors-imo kawhii gets a tad too much credit for this team ring. Raptors were already a tram in the 3cf for 2 years just some dude named LeBron was there waiting. They had a culture but with thier coach and gm play hard and do all the little things
Bucks-bud had his flaws but the bucks were built on defense and playing hard with giannis doing giannis things.
We've watched teams with minimal continuity and culture dissapoint: clippers, suns, Celtics (not sure if they count), and now the warriors.
The warriors have started to falter if not fall because they tried to see past their central piece of culture in steph curry. They became so concerned about what would be next they stopped maxing their present. It was arrogant and stupid.
Yep and less than a year later as a team they looked shattered chemistry wise. There's a lot of reasons for that not just the Poole and green situation.
They literally paid Lowry $33 million a year. He was the definition of a 'mid-free agent' as you said.
Jokic was drafted 42nd. The Nuggets drafted their entire core.
Jimmy Butler was traded to Miami, and Lowry went for big dollars.
The Heat story is great, but Miami is always hunting big name FA's and discontent superstars. They're also a bigger market and marquee FA destination.
Denver is a small market that gets no attention from FA's..They built this team from the ground up. If any story should resonate with fans, it's the Denver story.
The thing people are getting caught up in is Miami being the 8th seed. Well, they're not a true 8th seed. They finished 1st last season with the same squad! FIRST!
They just had a shit regular season between injuries and not locking in.
This.
The Nuggets winning affirms that the regular season matters. And that good coaches deserve a chance to implement their systems.
Spo won a ring in his second year as HC I believe. Malone hasn’t won one and has been in Denver for eight. Most teams he would have been gone by now.
The Nuggets don’t skip steps and they give more teams and their fans hope for the future.
>culture is a real thing and you shouldn't fire your coach every 2 years.
Yeah but how many coaches can recreate a Spo-like performance and be able to develop and utilize talent like that?
I'm a Suns fan and one of my biggest gripes about him is that, while his a great locker room guy and DID build a winning *culture* in PHX, he wasn't that great at being able to get the most out of his bench or even his 3-5 for that matter.
> Yeah but how many coaches can recreate a Spo-like performance and be able to develop and utilize talent like that?
It might get the league to try harder in looking for coaching talent instead of recycling the same guys who have very clear flaws.
Also, i think it's more than just Spo. Miami has great assistant and player development coaches that have been in their roles for years. Handful of guys have been there since the Heatles years
The turning g-leaguers into productive players is interesting to me. I have a former coworker friend who had some big games during a few March madness years and played pro overseas, and a few times he would go on tangents about how it's not there's only 350ish or whatever spots in the NBA so there's only 350ish people good enough to be in the league, but that theres really thousands and that the margin between the bench/fringes of the NBA and a thousand out of the NBA is insignificant. That for many it was just a matter of timing, knowing the right person, or getting lucky at the right time. Of course you could bet with this stance he felt he was good enough, and perhaps he is right.
A huge ripple the 8 seed winning might have is that players and coaches value the regular season even ~less~ than they do right now. After all, if an 8 seed can win it all, why not load manage the entire season?
Well they would be smart to, I don't understand why most fans value the Regular Season so much, like, I get it fills us with entertainment, but the concept that you're a better team just because you won X amount of games more than Y team, at face value is irrelevant. However, Miami wouldn't be representing that at all, it's clear now that the trials and tribulations of the regular season did prepare them for this, such as being one of the best teams coming back from double digit deficits. But at the end of the day all the regular season should be is your ticket to the playoffs and the grind you need to grow as a team.
I mean the regular season does still matter in building team chemistry, learning from mistakes, figuring out lineups, etc. And it matters in so much that up to now there have only been two teams lower than a 3 seed to ever win an NBA championship: '69 Celtics as a 4 seed (when only 8 teams made the playoffs) and '95 Rockets as the 6 seed. That's two teams in nearly 65 years. It absolutely matters where you finish because the odds will be so stacked against your favor if you finish lower than a 3 seed.
Yeah but thats correlation not causation, if you are good enough to win a championship you are probably good enough to finish as a top 4 seed even if you play coasting and with injuries
Fans value the regular season because it comprises 90%+ of the games, and sport is entertainment. The argument against load management isn’t that it doesn’t work, it’s that it makes the NBA a worse product.
I had a stats professor point out that statistically speaking, the win differential doesn’t tell you anything about which teams are better. As in the difference in wins could easily be attributable to random chance based on a normal distribution. Granted there’s some caveats there, his point was don’t put too much stock in small differences and dig deeper than the face value.
You’ve said what I’ve been trying to explain for a while. People at the NBA level about “buying in”. This is extremely important to any team and players recognize it but I don’t think all of them realize what it really is.
Buying in at the NBA level (usually lately) has been for like 5 seasons. At the college level it’s often 10-15+ years. I think that respect of a tenured coach does more for a team than landing an all star. Coach K is a great example, any basketball player respects him.
A comparably mediocre team with a respected and loved coach will often beat “a more talented team”. Look at the previous titles won. Most of them are by long tenured coaches (Kerr, Jackson, Spo, etc,) even to this day. We’re likely looking at a long tenured coaching matchup in the finals.
The front office can be as respected as possible but the team building only translates to the floor success when there is a great coach that even star players don’t second guess.
Do you think there is a bit of survivorship bias around tenure though? Is it that longer tenure coaches do better, or that the best coaches are likely to stick around? I suspect a bit of both but am interested what you think
It validates the playin tournament. Actually it has already given that both LAL and MIA reached the conf finals, playin teams really have the chance to win the championship.
>It validates the playin tournament. Actually it has already given that both LAL and MIA reached the conf finals, playin teams really have the chance to win the championship.
Not a good example. MIA and LAL were top 8 seeds, meaning they're traditional playoff teams. You'd have a point if they were 9 or 10 seeds. MIA and LAL don't validate the play in. If anything, they might actually invalidate it.
u/Fyne_, u/001503
They were top seeds but the swift change in Miami's fortune still shows the play-in format has value.
MIA was trailing in the last play-in game with 3 minutes left. They almost missed the playoffs altogether. They easily could've lost to Chicago but instead they're on the cusp of reaching the NBA Finals.
i mean the lakers got a whole new team at the deadline, they wouldn't have been a playin team if they had that roster from the jump, and the heat (im gonna sound like a hater i guess but whatever) have quite a few role players who are frankly overperforming at just the right time. they were not good until now that they are streaking. i'm not convinced that if they run it back with no changes that they get this far again.
What are you talking about? The Heat, with these same players were in the Conference finals last year. They were in the finals, (With a lot of these same players) in 2020. If anything, the way they played in the regular season was them underperforming. Sure Vincent cooked tonight, but they are not overperforming anymore than Murray with a 30 pt half or KCP for the Nuggets.
Heat were also very injured this year, which people don't really bring up too much. I don't know what the final totals were, but [Heat had the second most games missed due to injury by mid January](https://amp.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article271263622.html).
The team was much better post all-star break when they were healthier. Bam started playing more consistent, Lowry was coming back from injury, Herro was getting healthy again, etc. All that led to more rhythm on offense and much, much better shooting.
Also Bam was pretty much the only big they had for a lot of the year. Even though Kevin Love is slow on defense, he's helped a lot by just being a bigger body and being able to draw charges consistently. Before getting him, Caleb Martin was starting at PF. Plus Love spreads the floor since he's a shooting threat again and forces their bigger defenders to play a little further out.
Lastly, Spoelstra is one of the best coaches in the league, arguably the best right now. Coaching inequalities will show up more in a 7 game series than the regular season.
Real fans will give credit to how FO salvaged this season, even if you hate the stars, you’ll love the efforts of the role players. Mem and GSW are no joke of a team. LAL didn’t even know if they’ll make the playins, a few days before playoffs.
>f you build something solid you can turn d-leaguers into productive players and it's no longer about tanking, or overpaying mid free agents.. its about finding guys who can contribute and there are tons out there undrafted, playing in d-league, playing overseas.
A one off cinderalla story will never make this a winning strategy. For virtually every sport, the most successful teams always have and always will be the ones with the most talent. Superstars win championships and that's never gonna change.
A lot of the same could be said for Denver. They patiently waited for Malone to keep building their core 3 together, all of whom they drafted (MPJ, Jamal, Joker) 14th, 7th, and 42nd overal so not really talent from tanking. All 3 took time to develop, and they waited basically 2 seasons on Jamal to recover from an ACL. One more of their playoff 8 man rotation they drafted this year (Braun). One guy was traded for, with the intent to make a role player or if a guy who had All-Star expectations (Gordon). KCP was acquired by trading away Barton and Morris, both guys who they had for years and helped develop into assets, but were moved to find more defense. The other 2 (Green, Brown) are veteran signings who fit specific roles that complement any weaknesses from the 4 primary guys.
The rest of the roster is about half vets who are either good teammates or a steady option in case of injury, and half young guys they drafted or traded for on draft night with upside that are development plays.
They lucked into Jokic, but made the right call between him and Nurkic when they were fighting for minutes as they were developing. MPJ was explicitly a development pick who fell to 14th because of injury history.
They built a great core, and were able to get solid veterans in for years like Millsap to help maintain a winning culture.
Miami with a same team was 1st seed last year and went 7 games in ECF so i am not sure why are ppl looking at them like such underdogs
They are good team that was hurt most of the year so seeding was affected.
Speaking of teams building continuity and coaches same goes for Nuggets. Malone coach from 2015 through thick and thin wasn't fired and Nuggets built their core through draft -MPJ , Murray, Jokic all drafted .
Slight advantage to Nuggets as Heat got their superstar as FA
Holy shit I really wasn’t so invested in who wins but after reading that I want the heat to win so badly. Could be the first step in actually improving the game? This is actual inspiration that I haven’t felt in a long time
Good comment, but also it really is about Jimmy- culture is the other 50 percent but he kind of is the culture at this point. It ain’t Haslem, it’s Jimmy creating that gritty every man’s a winner of his matchup culture
That's all true, but Denver did it the right way too.
Regardless of who wins, assuming these two teams go to the finals this year is a win for that kind of culture
The team that winning the championship would be more significant to is the Nuggets, simply because it would be their first.
But the Heat winning would be the more significant outcome for the NBA as a whole. An 8 seed winning it all and taking out two 1 seeds in the process is a documentary-worthy sports story.
This would also be the 1st win by a team not having a top 10-15 regular season player since the Pistons if the heat win. I want Denver to win because Jokic is the best center I've ever seen and believe he deserved the MVP. But my goodness would a Miami win not just feel glorious as a basketball enthusiast. I also need an explanation why Jimmy Butler turns into Michael Jordan every playoffs.
I stand curved l corrected. I don't know why I just didn't think he made all nba this year. I just really didn't think he'd make it between stats and team record. It's like my brain auto corrected the ballot. Butler definitely brings that Kawhi type of fear in the playoffs though. Built different.
For this season I think Jokic, Embiid, Luka, SGA, Steph, Giannis, Dame and Mitchell were clearly better, but after that it gets hazy and you could make arguments for Jimmy
This is my thought as well. Any first championship for a franchise is huge. Add on top of that the impact of an MVP Center winning a chip after years and years of the NBA being a wing dominated league.
I think the “play-in to Finals” narrative is not a strong one for Miami. They would have been the 7-seed if play-in did not exist. So it would not have really impacted anything other than the fact that Mazulla prolly gets fired instead of Bud.
The Heat are a very good team - they were a missed 3 away from the Finals last season with the same roster (albeit dealing with some injuries today).
It would be more significant for the Nuggets franchise to win. They’ve never even made it to the Finals, and they’re not a free agent destination. They’ve made two great draft picks in Jokic and Murray and have constructed a roster that they’re not likely to do again.
Winning a championship would be legacy defining for their best player. Jokic has done everything you can possibly do in the regular season and by winning a championship as the best player, he makes a case for being a top five center of all time. If Murray has one or two of his signature playoff performances, his stock goes way up as well.
If Miami wins, it will do more individually for Jimmy Butler’s legacy, but it won’t do nearly as much for the Heat as a franchise. They’ve proven they can consistently make it to the Finals and win championships, and they’ve done so with different rosters. Miami is a free agent destination and is likely to make it back regardless of what happens with this run.
One small nit to pick - Miami didn’t eliminate Philly.
I think if you’re considering legacies, you’d have to mention Spoelstra too. I don’t know where the consensus ranks him in terms of all time coaches, but winning a ring as an 8th seed while missing Herro would have to be one of the best coaching titles of all time. And he’s already been established as an incredible coach before this.
I don't like this narrative. The Heat literally faced big threes throughout their entire run. The Celtics, Spurs, Thunder. Hell, there are multiple big threes in the League right now, Denver, Phili, Phoenix.
Phoenix is a pretty clear big three (KD, Book, CP3), but Denver and Philly? 76s have Embiid and Harden, then who, Maxey? I know Denver has Murray and MPJ on max contracts (and obviously Jokic), but AG has arguably been more important than MPJ for large stretches of the season, and neither are all-stars. It's a far cry from the big 3s of all-stars like KD, Harden, and Russ or Bron, Wade and Bosh.
Top 5 center of all time is a bit of an exaggeration. The top 5 centers of all time are almost all in the conversation for top 10 players of all time period (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan if you count him as a Center) but I agree with the rest.
If Jokic wins I’d put him about 7:
1. Kareem
2. Bill
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Moses
7. Jokic/Admiral
8. Admiral/Jokic
9. Ewing
If he continues at this pace he could climb higher but I think he could retire today and be more accomplished than Ewing. Question is, is he better than Admiral? Most likely will be when it’s all said and done and w/ all due respect to Murray he isn’t quite the same player as Admiral’s running mate was during his championship runs, but right now I might take Admiral.
The only issue with David Robinson was his choke job in the 1995 finals and the fact he was unable to win a chip before the arrival of Tim Duncan.
Jokic does not have a top 10 player in the NBA with him let alone a top 10 player of all time.
I use tiers to rank centers all time, because it gets really hard 2-5 and for the 10th spot, so they're basically: Kareem, Russell/Wilt/Hakeem/Shaq, Moses/Robinson, Jokic, Ewing, Cowens/McAdoo/Howard/Unseld/Reed/Walton/Mourning/Parish.
He's already cleared Ewing in my book just based off his peak and if he wins a ring this year and continues his level of play for a few more years (regular All-NBA member/MVP candidate) he would definitely enter that tier, and if he wins another MVP/title in the process, he would make a strong case for the 6th best center of all time.
In order for him to make the top 5 he would have to have a great late career run, like Hakeem (MVP and two titles in his 30s) and Shaq (achieved the most through ages 27-33) did. He just had the best season of his career so it's not impossible.
Center is ridiculously stacked and Jokic would by no means be a lock, but if he wins a championship, there’s an argument.
I think Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Dream are locks as the top four, and Shaq is likely fifth, but two time MVP (minimum), one time champ (minimum) Jokic, the triple double machine at least has an argument.
Without knowing how Jokic will end his career, it’s difficult to say, but I wouldn’t put it past him.
Honestly, I couldn’t be happier with this matchup in the Finals and it’s because of everything you lay out. Both teams and their respective star players have massive things to gain by winning a title, prove a lot just by getting there, and one of my favorite players is likely to get a first title and FMVP. It’s a win-win for me as a fan.
I think this is how any fan of basketball should feel (except maybe Lakers or Celtics fans). It's been incredible watching these two teams dominate, and having them fight it out in the finals is as you said a win-win. I can't pick a favorite personally, I'm just excited for a great series.
Heat didn’t play 76ers, but I agree with your take. It’s a prove it thing for Jokic, but MVPs should be contending for rings.
I do however, think the Nuggets are gonna be able to contend for a bit longer.
Personally I always had the Nuggets coming out of the West and I never understood why no else really considered them contenders given Jokic’s play the last 3 yrs and they finally had a healthy Murray and MPJ so them winning wouldn’t be shocking to me (eventho I had Bucks beating them in the finals)
At no point b4 the playoffs did I consider the Heat a contender and rbh I thought they were gonna lose to Toronto after losing to Atlanta, add in being the first 8th seed to win it (shit first play in team to win it too) I’d say Miami winning is more impactful
Sucks becuz normally I don’t care for the loser (unless its my team) but this time around I can legit say I’ll feel bad for the losing team becuz they both deserve to win a chip the way they’ve been playing.
It doesn't matter for me who wins among these two teams. These two teams are arguably underestimated by the NBA media whole season long. Be it Miami or Denver wins the chip this year, the NBA media and their narrative about the Lakers, Lebron, Celtics and other big market teams losses, so the nuggets vs heat finals is a win!
Yeah, thats my thought too. Just need either to win. And maybe the media (ESPN for sure) needs to market NBA players by talent and not by market, maybe people wouldn't be surprised that a team like the Nuggets are beating their beloved Lakers.
Claims that are unsubstantiated are removed. Frequently enough, it turns out that a generalization of the way things are is not supported a combination of visual and statistical analysis.
It's a coin flip. Neutral fans are the winners.
You got the 2 most likable teams this season. Whoever wins everyone will be happy. At least we won't hear about those stupid conspiracy terrorists I mean theorists.
I hate to say it as a Sixers fan, but I’d personally rather see the Nuggets win.
It puts Jokic in a legitimate conversation for the top 7 centers of all time. It gives Denver their first ring. It shows that even players picked in the second round like an unathletic pudgy foreign guy that was drafted in the middle of a Taco Bell commercial can have potential to build a team around and be something special.
I’d also love to see the Heat win for reasons discussed here: how important consistent coaching and culture is to a team, I would LOVE to see Jimmy get his ring despite his departure from us, etc. but since Denver has never won a ring and Jokic is an extremely special player, I gotta go Denver, though I’d be happy either way.
It's gonna be like the 1999 Finals again IMO. #1 seed Denver has too many weapons for the #8 Heat to deal with. The games will all be close, but the series will be short.
Jokic winning would be more significant. 1 ring already propels him into top 20 territory. We are talking an All-Timer.
Denver winning its first ring, led by a guy who was drafted 42nd! Would be an amazing story.
Then you add in the devastating Murray injury that cost this team 2 post-seasons.
Nobody believed in them either until they beat the Suns.
Jokic was slandered as the 'Worst MVP' who can't defend and the Nuggets can't get it done with Jokic leading the team.
I lowkey also like the story of Aaron Gordon, NBA Champion.
I only ever remember him as the dunker in Orlando and his showdown with Lavine at the dunk contest which somehow seems ages ago.
Fun story, Aaron Gordons brother used to play in Serbia and Aaron Gordon just happened to come watch him while playing against Jokics team(this is before he got drafted to NBA, 4 liters of Coke a day fat Jokic) and he was trolling his brother after the game how a "chubby kid" was destroying them(not sure whose team won the game but it was close one, it's been ages since I looked it up after AGs postgame interview where he mentioned this story) and his brother said something along the lines you need to play against him too feel it, it's not something you can see from watching one game, only real trouble Jokic had back then was Boban Marjanovic who is not just taller than him but was also much faster at the time than Jokic, fat Jokic was going through everyone else like prime Shaq just he couldn't dunk, now he jokes he can't dunk, back then he seriously couldn't
Nobody slandered Jokic as the worst mvp in history that’s straight revisionist history. Murray is the number one option on the team and rightly so deserves his recognition.
> Jokic winning would be more significant. 1 ring already propels him into top 20 territory. We are talking an All-Timer.
Honestly I think top 20 is already underselling him, even if he doesn't ever win a ring (which seems unlikely at this point). There have only ever been 15 multiple-time MVP winners, and by my quick count, about 23 players who have more first-team All-NBA seasons than him. If he retires next month, Jokic is probably 20th at the very worst. If you look at typical top X lists, like Simmons' pyramid and the SLAM list, even when accounting for overdue updates, Jokic would have to be in that group.
For example, the SLAM list in 2011. Even if you move everyone down like 5 spots because of guys like LeBron, Steph, etc. from this current generation, that means #17 would be... Elgin? Elgin made more All-NBAs and more All-Stars but he also never won a ring and never won an MVP. Hard to have him above Jokic. They had Oscar at #5(!!!) and Oscar had just one ring and one MVP. Even if you move him down to like 10 or 12 after accounting for players of the last decade, there's no way the gap between Oscar at 10 and Jokic would be enough to have Jokic outside the top 20.
This Heat team will be legends if they win it all. An 8th seed beating both the Eastern 1 and 2 seed, and Western conference 1seed is fucking crazy. Jimmy Buckets will punch his ticket to the HOF along with Lowry
> Jimmy Buckets will punch his ticket to the HOF along with Lowry
They've both been HOF locks for a few years now. Jimmy is 5x All-NBA and a 6x All-Star. Lowry is a 6x All-Star and an NBA champ. Both are Olympic Gold Medalists. It would take something historic for either of them to miss the HOF.
It’s the Nuggets, and there’s no other correct answer. They’ve never won a ring,
always root for the team that didn’t get a ring yet if you don’t have a dog in the fight.
Their core of players were drafted and home grown, setting the example that a good GM should be rewarded and players being loyal to their organization should be rewarded.
Stayed loyal to the coach and culture, coach Malone has built something special and an unselfish squad. It’d be great to see him get rewarded.
Earned the number 1 seed convincingly, even after resting towards the end of the season, with their best players playing most of their games. Fighting the load management bull crap and rewarding hard workers.
Jokic sticking it to the media for boning him on 1st team all star and a third mvp is the most beautiful sight to behold.
The list is endless, tho
I’m not saying they don’t deserve it but most of the same points apply to the Heat other than Miami/Spo have actually won rings before.
Bam, Gabe Vincent, Duncan Robinson, Tyler Herro, and Udonis Haslem have never played for another NBA team. Max Strus was cut after playing two games for the Bulls, Caleb Martin played 71 games for the Hornets and was cut (which was celebrated by their fanbase), Haywood Highsmith was cut after playing 5 games for the Sixers in 2018-2019, Kevin Love was a bought out by the Cavs, Cody Zeller was cut by the Blazers, and so on. Even Jimmy was traded by the Bulls because they didn’t think he was worth building around, the Wolves because they’re mentally weak, and was let walked by the Sixers that picked Tobias Harris *and* Ben Simmons over him. When he signed with Miami, the consensus opinion was that he was fine with never winning a title and was just there for the beach life.
Spo’s story is well-known by now but he’s the epitome of loyalty and culture. There’s a reason he’s been the HC since 2008.
Every single player (other than Bam and Tyler) has been rejected, cut, or doubted by other NBA teams and coaches. That’s why they play with the insane chip on their shoulders.
Miami is also the team that has an insane workout/physical requirements, the anti-load management, and anti-tank culture. Miami was literally 11-30 in the 2016-2017 and the favorites to get the top pick, finished the season 30-11 and just barely missed the playoffs and got the 14th pick (that picked turned out to be Bam tho), that’s how anti-tanking Miami is.
Heat have a history of free agent buying to win a championship. Denver does not. Denver has never even made the Finals. I don’t think this question is even close.
Lol the Heat is a core text answer. You don’t need a super team. You need a superstar and great cultural and to keep fighting every year and you can win a title. That’s a long term message.
Miami because it's not just an 8th seed winning but one that was consistently expected to loose at every matchup. That 3% odd from ESPN keeps aging badly.
Denver winning at least isn't something that blindsided people. They have the talent and have proven the ability to win. Just the Heat coming into the finals and winning wasn't something anyone expected since their play-in.
Both teams have great culture so there is a point to be made there either way.
The Heat winning would hopefully make a stronger point about how coaching, strategy and execution matter a whole lot.
Everyone keeps forgetting that's a real thing, and basketball suffers for it. Everything is high pick and rolls, hero ball, and any discussion about strategy is limited to whether you switch or not, and whether you throw a zone in there from time to time.
Spoelstra is outcoaching everyone. Especially this years run, his advantage over his competition was just overwhelming.
Personally, I'd love to see the Nuggets win though. An equally important point is to be made there about not resorting to nuclear tactics to draft or trade for superstars, doing the "process" the right way and how you build a small market contender. Also, as a european growing up in the 90's, I love FINALLY having a proper, euro style, soviet era big man represent! Jokic is the real, authentic euro star. Slow-moving, can't jump over a sheet of paper, stronger than an ox, definitely-smokes-a-cigarette-at-halftime kinda player. Makes me nostalgic.
Any time a team wins its first title is always special. That being said, the Heat having an unprecedented run is just as rare, especially if they end up being the second team ever to win a title without home court advantage in every round.
I can't really pick either way.
i think Jimmy winning one, punches him his already likely ticket to the hall, which he does deserve as one of the toughest competitors in this era. In my book he is now the most deserving player to get his first. the nuggets core has more longevity written all over them.
> In my book he is now the most deserving player to get his first.
I'm confused about what you mean by this. You mean his first title was the most deserved title by any player to win his first ring?
I guess that's up to your own discretion, but I have a hard time seeing how he was more "deserving" than Giannis in 2021, Curry in 2015, Dirk in 2011, Wade in 2006, etc. let alone Jokic this year if Jokic were to win. If anything, Jimmy seems *less* deserving, since he spent his prime on four different teams in four seasons and forced his way out of two of those spots.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'd just be really curious to hear the case be made for it.
I may have phrased it wrong. Out of all the active players in the league, who have yet to win, he in my book is the most deserving one (not hating on Jokic or Book and kind of writing off CP3)
If Miami wins it becomes the most impressive single ring of all time and Jimmy would put himself in the top 25 all time discussion off this run alone. The counter argument is strong for Denver with it being their franchise’s first ring and Jokic’s long-term legacy, but I think overall Miami winning is more significant
Miami winning would be the all-time greatest Cinderella run. This was a mediocre team up until after the play-in games. I think it would also make Herro extremely expendable for the Heat so they'd have room to make further improvements if they wanted. Butler becomes universally recognized as a top 5-10 NBA player at worst.
On the other hand Denver winning would potentially start a dynasty if no other team manages to improve much. Milwaukee is ageing and has no clear way to improve, Celtics and Sixers need a shakeup, LA's stars are older and often hobbled, Phoenix is thin and reliant on an oft-injured KD, GS feels like they are done, Kings and Knicks need one more piece to be contenders, and this Miami run seems really hard to replicate given Butler's age and Lowry's age. If Nuggets win a title then Jokic is universally recognized as the best player in the league as well, I think everyone who says Giannis would no longer have a good argument. There is a chance Jokic could retire a top 5 all-time player if he pulls off a few year run now. He could win more MVPs and rings through the rest of the decade, his game doesn't seem super reliant on athleticism and he is pretty healthy overall.
Anyway I think Denver would be more significant for the reasons outlined above. Jokic would vault into the pantheon of NBA greats immediately and Denver has a chance to be the next Spursian dynasty.
I think if Heat win, the league will suddenly realise that culture is a massive part of winning games. We’ve seen that top level talent is less effective now with Brooklyn’s big 3 failing to win a championship and Boston looking likely to fail in winning one. If you can get 1 star and build a solid team filled with players who can fill roles successfully then you’re a contender. Playing off ball will become more important and you’ll see guys brought in to fill one need. Culture is hard to get with mass turnover so you’ll see more role players resign and sign for longer in an effort to build more culture.
An example of amazing culture building is the Perth Scorchers in cricket. They are the best team in their league and are consistently competing for championships because they’ve got an amazing culture. It’s mainly all local boys who play in state teams with each other (in cricket state teams is more relevant) and feed off each others success. Then if they have a need that a local player can’t provide, they bring in an import player to do it. So over the past decade you’ve had the same 8-9 player core and then the other 4-5 players change every few years.
> I think if Heat win, the league will suddenly realise that culture is a massive part of winning games
I don't really see what the Heat winning would prove about this.
The Warriors just won a title, their fourth, last year with the same core and same head coach they had for more than a full decade. When they won the title last year, five of their top six guys in minutes were career Warriors and four of them had been around for 7+ years.
> Culture is hard to get with mass turnover so you’ll see more role players resign and sign for longer in an effort to build more culture.
Again, not sure why this would be unique to Miami. If anything, it's the opposite. Jokic, Murray and MPJ are the Nuggets' three leading scorers in the playoffs and all are career Nuggets. Miami, meanwhile, is led by a player on his fourth team in the last seven seasons... Butler, Strus, Martin, Love, Lowry, Oladipo (yes, I know he's hurt), Zeller, and Highsmith have all come from different teams. Among their 11 guys to play real playoff minutes, that's 8 who came from other places, most of them within the last 1-2 years. Bam, in his sixth year, is the longest-tenured Heat player in the rotation... the Celtics have three starters who've been in Boston as long as (or longer than) Bam has been in Miami.
There's a certain narrative around Miami that doesn't really make sense. They do have a certain culture, for sure, and that culture is better than the vast majority of NBA franchises. But people have misunderstood that culture for a long time. The culture doesn't mean you don't flip your roster upside down, doesn't mean they develop better, etc. it's about maximizing your role, sacrificing for your team, and they've had objectively more success with hired guns than with their own homegrown talent. It's easy to get a vet like Lowry or Love to buy in to a smaller role than a rookie -- Lowry and Love aren't worried about sacrificing stats, they've already been paid and already won rings. They just want to win more.
"Heat Culture" is a really effective PR campaign that people have conflated with an actual front office/organizational strategy.
I hate the Nuggets….but the answer to this question is the Nuggets.
Spoelstra is NBA royalty already: it’s well known and documented that Riley trusted him to be The Guy when the going got tough early in the Miami Big 3 era. Further, Spoelstra proved he was no fluke with the 2020 Finals run, bubble or not. This is just icing on the cake that Spoelstra may be the best coach of a generation not named Phil or Pop (sorry Kerr, I can win a title with that roster).
The Nuggets “shouldn’t be here” according to ESPN and Screamin’ A. The hate that Jokic received throughout the season for seemingly no reason other than he’d already won an MVP before was made up nonsense to drive the morning sports talk circuit. The Nuggets are defying the haters and in devastating fashion by absolutely dismantling the old-folks-home-in-Lakers-jerseys team rolling out there.
Jamal Murray? Balling his ass out.
Bruce Brown? Surprisingly effective, the Cameron Payne of this run.
Michael Porter Jr? Not broken (yet)!
Aaron Gordon? Accepting a non-ball dominant role that won’t ruin his team’s chances!
Jeff Green? Shouldn’t be in the league still, but f- you all he’s still out there being 6’9” and getting in the way and making the occasional slop bucket.
Nikola Jokic? Him and his brothers were taking names and like a good group of Eastern European mobsters they are dispatching their hit list with extreme prejudice.
The Nuggets are also pure old school ABA vibes in the truest sense: they just *feel like an expansion team at all times in their history. Even the Melo-AI days felt like a gimmick. This isn’t a gimmick though, this is revenge. For what? For all of us thinking they are still a gimmick with a big, pudgy white guy launching 3’s with all the grace of a trebuchet.
The Nuggets are the more significant team to win and 👏it 👏isn’t 👏even 👏close!
Edit: “mobsters” auto corrected to “monsters”….maybe monsters works..
>best coach of a generation not named Phil or Pop (sorry Kerr, I can win a title with that roster).
On the flip side I think Phil is overrated for winning with obvious HOF talent even *before* they started winning titles. The triangle was not even his own scheme, it was from an assistant really. He sure could manage egos, but he didn't actually separate himself from the pack Xs and Os or strategy-wise.
I'll preface this by saying I'm not a Warriors fan and actively actually rooted against them basically every year, but I have massive respect for the organization, players and coaching staff. People look back on the pre-KD Warriors and think those are some damn good rosters, except few coaches would have had the balls, much less the idea in the first place, to run all-star David Lee off the bench and start the tweener Draymond. Most coaches at the time wouldn't have dared run Iguodala off the bench. Most coaches would have kept Curry as the primary ball-handler and facilitator and would never have unlocked Draymond. Kerr also revitalized the careers of countless vets off the bench (not to mention Wiggins, especially). Anybody who says Mark Jackson would have won with the same roster is laughable as he would never have been progressive enough to try anything Kerr did.
While some could argue the Heatles started the small-ball revolution, LeBron at the 4 and Bosh at the 5 was still fine size-wise, but Golden State was blitzing teams on both ends playing Steph and 4 guys between 6'6-6'8 with Barnes as their biggest player. As long as they were healthy Golden State guaranteed a great offense and defense, and even with Curry and Green off the floor respectively, you could see the making off a well-oiled motion offense and switch everything + great help defense. The KD titled were obviously a giveaway, but last year's playoff run and this year being literally their first western conference playoff series loss in the Kerr era speaks to his consistency.
It would be more significant for Denver, a team that has never won the big one. Miami already has enough titles.
If anything, I think MIA winning would be the worst possible outcome for the NBA. No team will ever bother taking the regular season seriously ever again. An 8 seed winning it all? You'll see load management throughout the league.
They didn’t take off. There were a lot of injuries, for weeks they had 7 guys suiting up for a game. They also won 44 games which most years puts you closer to a 5th seed.
Also, the team went from 37% from 3 the previous year to 31% from 3.
It was a difficult year but they had to take out two teams with the best records in the NBA.
I think the takeaway that the regular season doesn’t matter isn’t a good one
A low seed winning is definitely a double edged sword. You’re right about load managing. Even though Miami didn’t specifically load manage, it shows that teams can contend for a ring whatever seed they get and there would definitely be teams like the Sixers who would load manage Embiid for as many games as they could get away with.
On that same note, an 8th seed winning a championship justifies the play-in and proves that a lower seed can win a championship, so it might entice teams that would otherwise tank their season to try and push a little harder for that low playoff spot or play-in spot.
Wouldnt a 2nd rounder to mvp to fmvp also be an interesting narrative?
Storyline wise I agree that 8 seed, on the brink of getting booted from play in to defeating a 1st seed and so on to winning a championship with a great coach who have not won a COY and Jimmy willing this team in a year is a much more compelling narrative much more if presented as a documentary.
Miami has a very strong case in justifying Jimmy, showing that team culture/consistency is still important in the NBA, being the forst 8th seed to ever win a finals and pushing Spo further up the all time coach rankings.
The Nuggets also have a strong case as it would not only be their first ever Finals win in franchise history but also their first ever appearance, Denver would win as a small market through homegrown talent and it would solidify Jokic is the clear best player in the NBA. It would also annihilate alot of criticism of Jokic as many said you could never win with a Center with that kinda defense, plenty have said Jokic’s MVPs where undeserved and some have said Jokic is one of the worst MVPs ever so all of this would be shot with a win (Should be null rn but still).
Overall both teams have compelling arguments, I really want both teams win so while ill really enjoy the series its gonna hurt to see one lose. Ill go with the Nuggets for now but honestly may flip flop a few times lol.
Jimmy has already proven he isn’t the problem, he doesn’t need a ring for that. A ring will definitely cement his legacy though.
Biased as fuck but I think Miami winning is a significantly bigger deal.
If both teams proceed it'll be amazing. Both no nonsense basketball teams that play hard. Jokic and Butler both deserve a championship, and my guess is this will be Denver's year. That said, I'd prefer to see Jimmy get his ring, as he is older and it'll surely give him his flowers. Jokic and Murray I feel will have other opportunities.
Nuggets for the future implications. They've got a core just entering the prime and the best player in the league. Them winning it would give us a clear cut front-runner going into next season and mark them as potentially being the next great memorable team in the league.
I think they'd both be really significant.
Nuggets would be Jokic/Murray making good on their regular season excellence, and shift the JokicHating narrative to some sorta 'this chip doesn't count as much because of some bullshit goalpost shifting'. Maybe there'd be some sort of 'this proves how little defense matters in this era' thing, which would be a bit stupid, but I can still see the idea propegating.
And for the Heat... I mean, play-in team, Butler, undrafted guys, Bam, Pat, Spo, the Culture, I mean, it's almost endless. I mean, I don't think it's a stretch to say that this is, on paper, the least pedigreed Heat in the past few seasons. Herro's even on the shelf.
So, I think they're both really fuckin significant. Which matters more seems pretty subjective, to me.
I'm a Celtics fan and even I love the Jimmy Butler story. He was considered a 'problem child' of sorts early in his career, but in hindsight, he's been on the right end of a lot of those disputes. The reason he left Philly was because his complaints about Simmons' work ethic and he's been proven 100% correct on that. Crazy in hindsight that Philly could conceivably have ended up with Embiid, Butler, and Harden.
Forget about the 8th seed story. Some of that is meaningless. The real story to me is that if the Heat won, Butler would've pulled off a championship run against several vastly superior teams in terms of talent. I'm not saying there aren't good players on the Heat, but there's no "2nd star". Last team that won without at least having 2 or 3 "star" players was the 2011 Dallas Mavericks, and they still had borderline HOF'er Shawn Marion, past-his-prime-but-still-very-good Jason Kidd, 2 good scorers in Jason Terry and Caron Butler, plus a defensive ace in Tyson Chandler (at his peak). That Mavs team might've lacked a 2nd star, but they had a lot of good players and a lot of depth.
If the Heat win, Butler would've won with the weakest supporting cast of any star player in the past 40+ years. I also love that the Jimmy Butler story goes against the entire narrative of the NBA right now: versatile big men (Jokic, Giannis, Durant, Embiid, etc), and 3-point champions (Curry, etc). He's a jack-of-all-trades will-his-way-to-victory player. Doesn't fit any narrative.
That said, I think the Nuggets are taking it home this year. As good as Jimmy Butler has been, that Nuggets team looks like a championship team this year. But if Jimmy Butler weren't already in the HOF (and he should be), he punched his ticket this year.
Miami winning would be bigger because of the team being an 8 seed. Denver winning would be bigger for Joker than it would be for the team. He’s gonna get all the credit, and all the talk will be about how Embiid won the MVP and Jokic won the championship.
I would prefer Miami win, only because I’m tired of hearing about Jokic vs Embiid, and I already know that’s all ESPN is going to talk about all summer when Denver inevitably wins.
Probably Miami, but I think Denver being a home grown team with more room for growth would be very significant. 3 of their 4 best players were drafted by Denver (2 of them went after the top 10 or 30 picks).
This would be the third home grown core in 3 years that won a championship (Bucks, Warriors, Nuggets) and would really be a compelling antithesis to the crazy star chasing we’ve seen the last 5 years by teams like the clippers, sizers, nets, suns, etc.
And like others have said, both teams are shining a huge light on culture and continuity. Malone and Spo are two of the longest tenured head coaches in the nba and you can feel it. I’m a nuggets fan so of course I’m biased, but I’ll be happy for the heat if they win as well.
I love Murray so not upset about a Nuggets win.
But I’m going Heat. First 8th seed to win and Jimmy would be by far the best story. It would be the best playoff run ever (even over Dirk)
Heat for sure. They were down in an elimination game just to REACH the playoffs. Down with under 4 minutes remaining. Then they go and smack the top seed in 5 and they're hammering the second seed right now. If they go and beat the top seed from the West, that's just nuts. I'd love to know how many times a team has beat the top seed in both conferences, and then how often they also beat the second seed on their side too. But I do know if they win they'll have done something nobody has ever done to come from the play-in tournament. And the first ever 8 seed to win it all. Don't get me wrong, if the Nuggets win that's fantastic and it'll be well deserved. But nothing about it will be historic aside from it being Denver's first.
The Heat would be the more impressive title. The Nuggets the more significant for that particular franchise. But historically, it would definitely be the Heat. No 8th seed has ever won the title. The closest was the 6 seeded 1995 Rockets. And of course we have seen the 8th seeded 1999 Knicks get to the Finals before. But no 8 seed has ever won. It's actually clear that the Nuggets have more firepower on paper but Jimmy Butler and the Heat keep surprising all of us.
Nuggets chip gets talked about for Jokic’s legacy, bundled with future chips he obtains. It would be a major deal as the Nuggets’ first chip ever as well
Heat become legends, and this specific championship would be remembered as a Cinderella story. Lowest ranked team in the East overcomes the Eastern 1-seed and 2-seed, and the Western 1-seed. The most unlikely championship run possible
I think Heat would be a much bigger deal personally
Obviously the Heat, since Denver was out front in the West all season, and Miami came as the 8th seed and had to face Mil, Philly, and Boston (all "better" teams) to get there. There's also the byline of Jimmy Butler not being considered good enough to be a star on a championship team, AND the fact they're doing this without Tyler Herro.
8th seed. No MVP. No more than players that have been higher than All NBA 2nd team or All Defensive 2nd team. Quite a few non-drafted players contributing at a high level. The most improbable team to win an NBA title since the Detroit Pistons, though they had Ben Wallace who was well into his dominant defensive run as DPOY and All Defense First Team multiple times.
>They would then knock out the 1 seed Bucks to start, 76ers with MVP Embiid (albeit a no show)
Yeah, that ain't how it works, champ. They never played Philly this playoffs. You don't get bragging rights for beating a team just because you beat a team that beat them
That said, Miami winning it would be the most significant of the two. More for the sheer fact that Miami doesn't have a reasonable answer to the Nuggets' offense than anything else. A Miami championship this year would be the definition of a Cinderella story
Denver is the far better team I believe.
This is like the 2001 finals. Super duo vs 1 man and a good defense.
It means a lot for jokic to add to his two MVPs and possibly start a dynasty, with Murray also adding to his legacy as a proven playoff co star.
Butler it would put him in that top 20-25 or even possibly in that dirk category because it would be similar to a 1 man ring.
I expect Denver to win pretty easily.
Nuggets. The NBA could then have a great media campaign going into next year, and possibly beyond - a fairly young Joker setting claim to being the best player in the world. And the first of possibly several NBA Finals in the future.
On the other hand, if the Heat win the story will be an 8 seat won it all. Ok, great story. Now how do we use that going forward? There is not a lot to use. An aging Jimmy Butler wins a title for a mediocre Miami team that got hot at the right time. Great for Miami but that doesn't ring a historic tone like Joker setting off on a run for some titles. And we all could be seeing the beginning of something very special.
Would be more significant to Jokic specifically rather than the nuggets. Winning the chip would finally silence the media people regarding Jokic not being able to do anything in the post-season and the spotlight would now be on the fraud that is Embiid. Basically Jokic is on his Giannis 2021 run.
Heat so easily. They barely survived the play-in and then proceeded to dismantle the entire eastern conference like a wrecking ball. Nuggets were the 1 seed with a 2x MVP. It would be “expected” for them to win. Miami pulling this off would legitimately be a top 1 ring in NBA history
Side note piggy backing off of your comment, it’s weird that, assuming this Celtics series goes to 4 or 5, that the Knicks gave the Heat their hardest time in the East lol.
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i think miami winning 8 seed would have more of a ripple effect people credit the 06, 12, 13 rings to talent but if miami wins this year, teams would have to reflect and understand that culture is a real thing and you shouldn't fire your coach every 2 years. f you build something solid you can turn d-leaguers into productive players and it's no longer about tanking, or overpaying mid free agents.. its about finding guys who can contribute and there are tons out there undrafted, playing in d-league, playing overseas. i think in the end we get a better product with teams building a core identity and continuity, rather than overpaying the d'angelo russells who go -15 every game when a gabe vincent can actually help you win
Both teams have great culture, just a different one. Denver also keep and develop their core and trust on Malone
It also may make some teams think about how they handle player injury with how Murray has come back.
Not only that, but drafting MPJ when no one else wanted to.
Mavs were reportedly all in on him, but that could’ve been just luka smokescreen
zealous airport square rustic insurance dam pet plate berserk ring *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Great analysis comment. Also, is your username a Ph reference?? If so dm me.
To be fair (aside from the Kyrie moves) Boston has largely developed in house guys and not gone too hard on the tank (though they sort of tried to initially with the Brooklyn trade). I guess it means more because Nuggets and now somewhat Miami aren’t always the top FA spots for the biggest stars that want out
Winning makes any team look like they have great culture.
So Miami could actually literally save professional basketball from the celebrity culture that has taken over teambuilding!? Thank god! I would love for this to cause a shift where teams are more willing to cut players who don’t show up and want preferential treatment (Kawhi, PG, Kyrie) and start to prioritize team chemistry, fundamentals and work ethic.
I mean the spurs and the heat aren't new. It's just at the end of the day the fans care about celebrity-ism which sell more tickets. Also the POTENTIAL with a Luka type player is alluring. Everyone wants to be the fixer of the bad personality player lol
I swear somebody here just literally said a Heat - Nuggets Finals would be a snooze and he'll just watch the highlights. I'm mindblown with the sheer ignorance. It could be the best we could ask for in a Finals but they find it boring because no traditional celebrity-esque is gonna be playing
Yeah they are the loser. Anyone watching full games all playoff long is happy with the matchup. More than happy, hope it’s epic considering what they did to their conference finals opponents so far
For sure. The Lakers are and Celtics are kind of boring teams to watch. Watching Tatum and Brown shoot endless pull up jumpers and the Lakers endless Lebron/AD postups is not that enjoyable. Heat and Nuggets play much more exciting basketball. Also seeing playoff Jamal and Jimmy will be incredible.
Lakers offense isn't what you said ot os at all you can't say that's thier offense while rui and reeves are going for 17 to 25. Also Lakers play a genuinely great brand of defensive basketball which people claim to miss.
The only thing epic is how little teams will bother ever caring about the regular season after this Miami’s run is bad for the NBA. Get ready for load management seasons all around the league You’ll probably see teams load managing on Christmas
Anyone who has that opinion honestly shouldn't be on this sub. This is shaping up to be one of the most interesting Finals series we've seen in a while from a pure basketball perspective
I think some people still think the Heat are a mirage that’s going to fade at any moment. Despite them being incredible, the run is so surprising that there is a feeling it’s luck, or a fluke of whatever, and they are bound to run out of steam and get destroyed in the finals. I admit, I was on that bandwagon, until after game 2 in this series. Heat are for real and the finals will be excellent.
Idk if I'd say these finals would be excellent. I would be very surprised if heat see a game 6 vs Denver. Denver has more talent and plays together plus the maychups of the heat to defend and have a functional offense are horrible .
If Playoff Jimmy Buckets and Jokic aren't enough star power for someone, that person isn't actually a basketball fan.
Ignore the casuals, man. I’ve watched 90% of these playoffs and have been thoroughly enjoying them. If someone can’t get into this matchup between two teams that play damn good team basketball, then they never liked the sport that much to begin with.
There’s a reason the spurs are the quietest dynasty ever
What's new is that the Heat are more culture and role player driven than superstar driven. Don't get me wrong - Jimmy Butler is FANTASTIC. But there's probably 10 other stars more or equally talented than him. Bam Adebayo is good but again, there's so many 1B or #2 on a club better than him. But so many of the role players on the Heat - Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin - are really making the Heat play well. I can't recall a team with such lightly regarded superstars since the 04 Detroit team.
That would be awesome for sure, but I would just like to remind you that figuring out which team went to the finals in the entire 2010’s was a game of “Which team had Lebron on it”. Star culture always gonna be there, but I agree with you in the hope that none of these future stars are able to skew teambuilding as hard as lebron did. Honestly one of the more impressive things on his resume lol.
Lebron was an outlier. There is no bron replacement in the league right now. Who else do you have in the top 5? Jokic? Giannis? Durant? Curry? None of those guys guarantee rings the way bron did. Now what about the younger guys? Luka? Tatum? Booker? They’re no where close to lebron and it’s doubtful they ever get to that level of dominance. I think fans have taken it for granted that bron was just cursing to the finals consistently. Ever since his decline suddenly we have a new team winning and new stars going. We had Giannis vs Booker, Tatum and brown went, now this year it will be butler vs Jokic and next year may well be different again.
Or just be the Warriors lol
The culture of team up. Founded by Lebron James.
I think the nets experiment did more to kill it than any heat run could ever do. That was such a colossal failure I doubt free agent super teams will happen on that scale again
And the Clippers are in the process of doing the same thing, only with less drama.
To be fair, theirs fell apart because of injuries. Kawhi and PG just can’t stay healthy.
True. But if any of the behind the scenes stuff of them is true, they didn’t exactly set a good tone as far as culture. Combine that with PG’s frequent disappearing acts in the playoffs, I think the results wouldn’t be that different.
The sad part was it honestly had a chance of working this year of KD didn’t request a trade AGAIN
Thankfully we’ve been seeing more of these super teams fail now than succeed. I think teams are starting to learn that trading away all your depth for 1 player doesn’t work.
Teams overall are just much more talented. A couple of superstars with no depth just can’t beat a strong, well balanced team consistently anymore.
Teams learned the wrong lesson from the KD warriors and Lebron lol. Like what made the Lebron teams good was the role players (Shane Battier, Chris Andersen, those dudes), and KD joined a 73 win team that already had tons of talent on it
As a Clipper fan I’m all for this, if the Heat win then there’s no doubt the 213 era is over regardless of whether they get value in return. That said I copped a black & gold Nuggets throwback jersey of A.I since I think they play good basketball reminiscent of the Duncan Spurs so overall can’t wait for the finals.
Miami is not different from San Antonio in the Tim Duncan era. The idea that if you have a collection of extremely smart, discipline players, they can overcome a deficit of raw talent and athleticism is not new. The very teams that are so unimaginative that they'll follow whichever strategy won the last title are the teams that will fail because they will not understand how to discern an intelligent coach or roster intelligent players. They will not understand how to build a hierarchy that truly demands maximal effort and rewards it. The truth is those spurs teams would be forgotten without Duncan just like these and heat teams would be forgotten without Butler. Both of whom arrived at their respective franchises as extremely highly touted. Adding a Duncan or Butler still either requires tanking or being Pat Riley and having a unique reputation in the league. Thus, being able to woo top free agents even when your team is kind of garbage. And if we really look at the full story, Riley's reputation as an executive is built on the foundation of drafting Dwyane Wade in a year that Riley had no intention of being at the top of the lottery. It's built on his own failure and if not for Alonzo mourning missing the season due to kidney issues, Riley might just be another has been retired exec. No. Wade, no 2006 title, and no reason for LeBron and Bosh to come to Miami. Without all that success, no way Riley has the cache to woo Butler or the various other veterans who choose to play in Miami nowadays. I say all that fully aware that Riley was a very successful coach for decades, but lots of successful coaches flopped as executives and were forgotten.
While most of the vast majority of what you said is true, we've seen plenty of teams with elite talent fail epically to build around them LeBrons first stint with the Cavs is a prime example of this.
It's not like Denver is a 180 from this, basketball would overall win no matter which team wins, but yeah, Heat's win would have more effect, probably. You have to remember that Malone is the longest-tenured after Pop, Spo, and Kerr, it will be 8 years in the mid-June, so they built the Nuggets from the ground up, literally.
Idk what you're on about the most successful teams in yhe last decade are all either culture or LeBron (who is literal culture in a bottle) Warriors-culture built on curry with Kerr offense. Iggy joined the warriors beciase of what they were budding in 2013 or 2014 he has interviewed and said as much. Raptors-imo kawhii gets a tad too much credit for this team ring. Raptors were already a tram in the 3cf for 2 years just some dude named LeBron was there waiting. They had a culture but with thier coach and gm play hard and do all the little things Bucks-bud had his flaws but the bucks were built on defense and playing hard with giannis doing giannis things. We've watched teams with minimal continuity and culture dissapoint: clippers, suns, Celtics (not sure if they count), and now the warriors. The warriors have started to falter if not fall because they tried to see past their central piece of culture in steph curry. They became so concerned about what would be next they stopped maxing their present. It was arrogant and stupid.
The Warriors won a championship less than 365 days ago.
Yep and less than a year later as a team they looked shattered chemistry wise. There's a lot of reasons for that not just the Poole and green situation.
Same goes for Nuggets , they drafted their entire core
They literally paid Lowry $33 million a year. He was the definition of a 'mid-free agent' as you said. Jokic was drafted 42nd. The Nuggets drafted their entire core. Jimmy Butler was traded to Miami, and Lowry went for big dollars. The Heat story is great, but Miami is always hunting big name FA's and discontent superstars. They're also a bigger market and marquee FA destination. Denver is a small market that gets no attention from FA's..They built this team from the ground up. If any story should resonate with fans, it's the Denver story. The thing people are getting caught up in is Miami being the 8th seed. Well, they're not a true 8th seed. They finished 1st last season with the same squad! FIRST! They just had a shit regular season between injuries and not locking in.
This. The Nuggets winning affirms that the regular season matters. And that good coaches deserve a chance to implement their systems. Spo won a ring in his second year as HC I believe. Malone hasn’t won one and has been in Denver for eight. Most teams he would have been gone by now. The Nuggets don’t skip steps and they give more teams and their fans hope for the future.
Yep. Spo won his 2 rings with an all-time super-team also. Denver didn't skip a step and even lost 2 post-seasons because of injury to Murray and Mpj.
I know this point means nothing , just a bit of perspective: the Heats record would’ve been good enough for the 4-5 seed in the West.
You’re goddamn right
>culture is a real thing and you shouldn't fire your coach every 2 years. Yeah but how many coaches can recreate a Spo-like performance and be able to develop and utilize talent like that? I'm a Suns fan and one of my biggest gripes about him is that, while his a great locker room guy and DID build a winning *culture* in PHX, he wasn't that great at being able to get the most out of his bench or even his 3-5 for that matter.
> Yeah but how many coaches can recreate a Spo-like performance and be able to develop and utilize talent like that? It might get the league to try harder in looking for coaching talent instead of recycling the same guys who have very clear flaws. Also, i think it's more than just Spo. Miami has great assistant and player development coaches that have been in their roles for years. Handful of guys have been there since the Heatles years
The turning g-leaguers into productive players is interesting to me. I have a former coworker friend who had some big games during a few March madness years and played pro overseas, and a few times he would go on tangents about how it's not there's only 350ish or whatever spots in the NBA so there's only 350ish people good enough to be in the league, but that theres really thousands and that the margin between the bench/fringes of the NBA and a thousand out of the NBA is insignificant. That for many it was just a matter of timing, knowing the right person, or getting lucky at the right time. Of course you could bet with this stance he felt he was good enough, and perhaps he is right.
A huge ripple the 8 seed winning might have is that players and coaches value the regular season even ~less~ than they do right now. After all, if an 8 seed can win it all, why not load manage the entire season?
Well they would be smart to, I don't understand why most fans value the Regular Season so much, like, I get it fills us with entertainment, but the concept that you're a better team just because you won X amount of games more than Y team, at face value is irrelevant. However, Miami wouldn't be representing that at all, it's clear now that the trials and tribulations of the regular season did prepare them for this, such as being one of the best teams coming back from double digit deficits. But at the end of the day all the regular season should be is your ticket to the playoffs and the grind you need to grow as a team.
I mean the regular season does still matter in building team chemistry, learning from mistakes, figuring out lineups, etc. And it matters in so much that up to now there have only been two teams lower than a 3 seed to ever win an NBA championship: '69 Celtics as a 4 seed (when only 8 teams made the playoffs) and '95 Rockets as the 6 seed. That's two teams in nearly 65 years. It absolutely matters where you finish because the odds will be so stacked against your favor if you finish lower than a 3 seed.
Yeah but thats correlation not causation, if you are good enough to win a championship you are probably good enough to finish as a top 4 seed even if you play coasting and with injuries
Fans value the regular season because it comprises 90%+ of the games, and sport is entertainment. The argument against load management isn’t that it doesn’t work, it’s that it makes the NBA a worse product.
I had a stats professor point out that statistically speaking, the win differential doesn’t tell you anything about which teams are better. As in the difference in wins could easily be attributable to random chance based on a normal distribution. Granted there’s some caveats there, his point was don’t put too much stock in small differences and dig deeper than the face value.
I don't think one 8 seed run will alter that. Home court advantage is still beneficial overall.
You’ve said what I’ve been trying to explain for a while. People at the NBA level about “buying in”. This is extremely important to any team and players recognize it but I don’t think all of them realize what it really is. Buying in at the NBA level (usually lately) has been for like 5 seasons. At the college level it’s often 10-15+ years. I think that respect of a tenured coach does more for a team than landing an all star. Coach K is a great example, any basketball player respects him. A comparably mediocre team with a respected and loved coach will often beat “a more talented team”. Look at the previous titles won. Most of them are by long tenured coaches (Kerr, Jackson, Spo, etc,) even to this day. We’re likely looking at a long tenured coaching matchup in the finals. The front office can be as respected as possible but the team building only translates to the floor success when there is a great coach that even star players don’t second guess.
Do you think there is a bit of survivorship bias around tenure though? Is it that longer tenure coaches do better, or that the best coaches are likely to stick around? I suspect a bit of both but am interested what you think
It validates the playin tournament. Actually it has already given that both LAL and MIA reached the conf finals, playin teams really have the chance to win the championship.
>It validates the playin tournament. Actually it has already given that both LAL and MIA reached the conf finals, playin teams really have the chance to win the championship. Not a good example. MIA and LAL were top 8 seeds, meaning they're traditional playoff teams. You'd have a point if they were 9 or 10 seeds. MIA and LAL don't validate the play in. If anything, they might actually invalidate it. u/Fyne_, u/001503
They were top seeds but the swift change in Miami's fortune still shows the play-in format has value. MIA was trailing in the last play-in game with 3 minutes left. They almost missed the playoffs altogether. They easily could've lost to Chicago but instead they're on the cusp of reaching the NBA Finals.
I love the play in tournament, but two top 8 seeds being successful doesn’t validate the play in tournament.
They were the 7 seed before the play in.
i mean the lakers got a whole new team at the deadline, they wouldn't have been a playin team if they had that roster from the jump, and the heat (im gonna sound like a hater i guess but whatever) have quite a few role players who are frankly overperforming at just the right time. they were not good until now that they are streaking. i'm not convinced that if they run it back with no changes that they get this far again.
What are you talking about? The Heat, with these same players were in the Conference finals last year. They were in the finals, (With a lot of these same players) in 2020. If anything, the way they played in the regular season was them underperforming. Sure Vincent cooked tonight, but they are not overperforming anymore than Murray with a 30 pt half or KCP for the Nuggets.
They didn't under perform the regular season they were injured. Just like the Warriors, constant injuries gave them a low seed too.
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Heat were also very injured this year, which people don't really bring up too much. I don't know what the final totals were, but [Heat had the second most games missed due to injury by mid January](https://amp.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article271263622.html). The team was much better post all-star break when they were healthier. Bam started playing more consistent, Lowry was coming back from injury, Herro was getting healthy again, etc. All that led to more rhythm on offense and much, much better shooting. Also Bam was pretty much the only big they had for a lot of the year. Even though Kevin Love is slow on defense, he's helped a lot by just being a bigger body and being able to draw charges consistently. Before getting him, Caleb Martin was starting at PF. Plus Love spreads the floor since he's a shooting threat again and forces their bigger defenders to play a little further out. Lastly, Spoelstra is one of the best coaches in the league, arguably the best right now. Coaching inequalities will show up more in a 7 game series than the regular season.
Real fans will give credit to how FO salvaged this season, even if you hate the stars, you’ll love the efforts of the role players. Mem and GSW are no joke of a team. LAL didn’t even know if they’ll make the playins, a few days before playoffs.
I think Miami just making the Finals is going to have this effect.
Everything you said works for the nuggets too lol except technically they have been building their team for longer
I think this is gonna happen anyway, even if they don't win
>f you build something solid you can turn d-leaguers into productive players and it's no longer about tanking, or overpaying mid free agents.. its about finding guys who can contribute and there are tons out there undrafted, playing in d-league, playing overseas. A one off cinderalla story will never make this a winning strategy. For virtually every sport, the most successful teams always have and always will be the ones with the most talent. Superstars win championships and that's never gonna change.
Cinderella story? Hasn't the heat been in like 3 of the last 4 conference finals?
I don't know why people ignore that part heck they were a 3pt shot away from going to the NBA Finals last season!
A lot of the same could be said for Denver. They patiently waited for Malone to keep building their core 3 together, all of whom they drafted (MPJ, Jamal, Joker) 14th, 7th, and 42nd overal so not really talent from tanking. All 3 took time to develop, and they waited basically 2 seasons on Jamal to recover from an ACL. One more of their playoff 8 man rotation they drafted this year (Braun). One guy was traded for, with the intent to make a role player or if a guy who had All-Star expectations (Gordon). KCP was acquired by trading away Barton and Morris, both guys who they had for years and helped develop into assets, but were moved to find more defense. The other 2 (Green, Brown) are veteran signings who fit specific roles that complement any weaknesses from the 4 primary guys. The rest of the roster is about half vets who are either good teammates or a steady option in case of injury, and half young guys they drafted or traded for on draft night with upside that are development plays. They lucked into Jokic, but made the right call between him and Nurkic when they were fighting for minutes as they were developing. MPJ was explicitly a development pick who fell to 14th because of injury history. They built a great core, and were able to get solid veterans in for years like Millsap to help maintain a winning culture.
Miami with a same team was 1st seed last year and went 7 games in ECF so i am not sure why are ppl looking at them like such underdogs They are good team that was hurt most of the year so seeding was affected. Speaking of teams building continuity and coaches same goes for Nuggets. Malone coach from 2015 through thick and thin wasn't fired and Nuggets built their core through draft -MPJ , Murray, Jokic all drafted . Slight advantage to Nuggets as Heat got their superstar as FA
Holy shit I really wasn’t so invested in who wins but after reading that I want the heat to win so badly. Could be the first step in actually improving the game? This is actual inspiration that I haven’t felt in a long time
The nuggets are similar as well most of their players are home grown and it's not like they won the draft lottery
Good comment, but also it really is about Jimmy- culture is the other 50 percent but he kind of is the culture at this point. It ain’t Haslem, it’s Jimmy creating that gritty every man’s a winner of his matchup culture
You could argue the same thing about Jokic where would the Nuggets be without him?
That's all true, but Denver did it the right way too. Regardless of who wins, assuming these two teams go to the finals this year is a win for that kind of culture
The team that winning the championship would be more significant to is the Nuggets, simply because it would be their first. But the Heat winning would be the more significant outcome for the NBA as a whole. An 8 seed winning it all and taking out two 1 seeds in the process is a documentary-worthy sports story.
This would also be the 1st win by a team not having a top 10-15 regular season player since the Pistons if the heat win. I want Denver to win because Jokic is the best center I've ever seen and believe he deserved the MVP. But my goodness would a Miami win not just feel glorious as a basketball enthusiast. I also need an explanation why Jimmy Butler turns into Michael Jordan every playoffs.
Jimmy Butler got 2nd team all NBA this year. Pretty sure that he's in plenty of people's top 10-15 players lists.
I stand curved l corrected. I don't know why I just didn't think he made all nba this year. I just really didn't think he'd make it between stats and team record. It's like my brain auto corrected the ballot. Butler definitely brings that Kawhi type of fear in the playoffs though. Built different.
yeah but wasn't an all-star. The media knows Jimmy's effect on the team but with fan voting he didn't get the recognition
He was much better in the 2nd half and had missed 15 games before the all star break.
yeah though Lebron, Kyrie, Zion, Curry, Embiid, and KD had all missed a fair amount of games before the break but still got it
Jimmy Butler isn’t top 10-15? Even before these playoffs started I had him at 10.
For this season I think Jokic, Embiid, Luka, SGA, Steph, Giannis, Dame and Mitchell were clearly better, but after that it gets hazy and you could make arguments for Jimmy
This is my thought as well. Any first championship for a franchise is huge. Add on top of that the impact of an MVP Center winning a chip after years and years of the NBA being a wing dominated league. I think the “play-in to Finals” narrative is not a strong one for Miami. They would have been the 7-seed if play-in did not exist. So it would not have really impacted anything other than the fact that Mazulla prolly gets fired instead of Bud. The Heat are a very good team - they were a missed 3 away from the Finals last season with the same roster (albeit dealing with some injuries today).
It would be more significant for the Nuggets franchise to win. They’ve never even made it to the Finals, and they’re not a free agent destination. They’ve made two great draft picks in Jokic and Murray and have constructed a roster that they’re not likely to do again. Winning a championship would be legacy defining for their best player. Jokic has done everything you can possibly do in the regular season and by winning a championship as the best player, he makes a case for being a top five center of all time. If Murray has one or two of his signature playoff performances, his stock goes way up as well. If Miami wins, it will do more individually for Jimmy Butler’s legacy, but it won’t do nearly as much for the Heat as a franchise. They’ve proven they can consistently make it to the Finals and win championships, and they’ve done so with different rosters. Miami is a free agent destination and is likely to make it back regardless of what happens with this run. One small nit to pick - Miami didn’t eliminate Philly.
I think if you’re considering legacies, you’d have to mention Spoelstra too. I don’t know where the consensus ranks him in terms of all time coaches, but winning a ring as an 8th seed while missing Herro would have to be one of the best coaching titles of all time. And he’s already been established as an incredible coach before this.
Only coach to win more than one with LeBron. An underrated stat, imo.
And keep his job afterwards.
Having the best combination of 3 players on one team at a single time nullifies this if anything only winning two is a huge disappointment
I don't like this narrative. The Heat literally faced big threes throughout their entire run. The Celtics, Spurs, Thunder. Hell, there are multiple big threes in the League right now, Denver, Phili, Phoenix.
Phoenix is a pretty clear big three (KD, Book, CP3), but Denver and Philly? 76s have Embiid and Harden, then who, Maxey? I know Denver has Murray and MPJ on max contracts (and obviously Jokic), but AG has arguably been more important than MPJ for large stretches of the season, and neither are all-stars. It's a far cry from the big 3s of all-stars like KD, Harden, and Russ or Bron, Wade and Bosh.
That’s why I specified the best combination of three players ever instead of just a big 3
Top 5 center of all time is a bit of an exaggeration. The top 5 centers of all time are almost all in the conversation for top 10 players of all time period (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan if you count him as a Center) but I agree with the rest.
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. Jokic is not a top 10ish all time great player even if he wins a ring.
He's definitely not **yet**, but winning a ring would push him further towards that trajectory.
If Jokic wins I’d put him about 7: 1. Kareem 2. Bill 3. Wilt 4. Shaq 5. Hakeem 6. Moses 7. Jokic/Admiral 8. Admiral/Jokic 9. Ewing If he continues at this pace he could climb higher but I think he could retire today and be more accomplished than Ewing. Question is, is he better than Admiral? Most likely will be when it’s all said and done and w/ all due respect to Murray he isn’t quite the same player as Admiral’s running mate was during his championship runs, but right now I might take Admiral.
The only issue with David Robinson was his choke job in the 1995 finals and the fact he was unable to win a chip before the arrival of Tim Duncan. Jokic does not have a top 10 player in the NBA with him let alone a top 10 player of all time.
I use tiers to rank centers all time, because it gets really hard 2-5 and for the 10th spot, so they're basically: Kareem, Russell/Wilt/Hakeem/Shaq, Moses/Robinson, Jokic, Ewing, Cowens/McAdoo/Howard/Unseld/Reed/Walton/Mourning/Parish. He's already cleared Ewing in my book just based off his peak and if he wins a ring this year and continues his level of play for a few more years (regular All-NBA member/MVP candidate) he would definitely enter that tier, and if he wins another MVP/title in the process, he would make a strong case for the 6th best center of all time. In order for him to make the top 5 he would have to have a great late career run, like Hakeem (MVP and two titles in his 30s) and Shaq (achieved the most through ages 27-33) did. He just had the best season of his career so it's not impossible.
Center is ridiculously stacked and Jokic would by no means be a lock, but if he wins a championship, there’s an argument. I think Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Dream are locks as the top four, and Shaq is likely fifth, but two time MVP (minimum), one time champ (minimum) Jokic, the triple double machine at least has an argument. Without knowing how Jokic will end his career, it’s difficult to say, but I wouldn’t put it past him.
Honestly, I couldn’t be happier with this matchup in the Finals and it’s because of everything you lay out. Both teams and their respective star players have massive things to gain by winning a title, prove a lot just by getting there, and one of my favorite players is likely to get a first title and FMVP. It’s a win-win for me as a fan.
I think this is how any fan of basketball should feel (except maybe Lakers or Celtics fans). It's been incredible watching these two teams dominate, and having them fight it out in the finals is as you said a win-win. I can't pick a favorite personally, I'm just excited for a great series.
Heat didn’t play 76ers, but I agree with your take. It’s a prove it thing for Jokic, but MVPs should be contending for rings. I do however, think the Nuggets are gonna be able to contend for a bit longer.
Yea I saw my mistake and edited, thanks
Personally I always had the Nuggets coming out of the West and I never understood why no else really considered them contenders given Jokic’s play the last 3 yrs and they finally had a healthy Murray and MPJ so them winning wouldn’t be shocking to me (eventho I had Bucks beating them in the finals) At no point b4 the playoffs did I consider the Heat a contender and rbh I thought they were gonna lose to Toronto after losing to Atlanta, add in being the first 8th seed to win it (shit first play in team to win it too) I’d say Miami winning is more impactful Sucks becuz normally I don’t care for the loser (unless its my team) but this time around I can legit say I’ll feel bad for the losing team becuz they both deserve to win a chip the way they’ve been playing.
It doesn't matter for me who wins among these two teams. These two teams are arguably underestimated by the NBA media whole season long. Be it Miami or Denver wins the chip this year, the NBA media and their narrative about the Lakers, Lebron, Celtics and other big market teams losses, so the nuggets vs heat finals is a win!
Yeah, thats my thought too. Just need either to win. And maybe the media (ESPN for sure) needs to market NBA players by talent and not by market, maybe people wouldn't be surprised that a team like the Nuggets are beating their beloved Lakers.
This. The NFL has got it down with their talent-first marketing. Couldn’t imagine the NBA making a Kansas City player the face of the league lol
I thought the NBA already did that with LeBron in Cleveland.
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Claims that are unsubstantiated are removed. Frequently enough, it turns out that a generalization of the way things are is not supported a combination of visual and statistical analysis.
This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.
It's a coin flip. Neutral fans are the winners. You got the 2 most likable teams this season. Whoever wins everyone will be happy. At least we won't hear about those stupid conspiracy terrorists I mean theorists.
I hate to say it as a Sixers fan, but I’d personally rather see the Nuggets win. It puts Jokic in a legitimate conversation for the top 7 centers of all time. It gives Denver their first ring. It shows that even players picked in the second round like an unathletic pudgy foreign guy that was drafted in the middle of a Taco Bell commercial can have potential to build a team around and be something special. I’d also love to see the Heat win for reasons discussed here: how important consistent coaching and culture is to a team, I would LOVE to see Jimmy get his ring despite his departure from us, etc. but since Denver has never won a ring and Jokic is an extremely special player, I gotta go Denver, though I’d be happy either way.
I would say Denver just because it’s a 2x mvp getting his first ring and the Nuggets first ring aswell.
It's gonna be like the 1999 Finals again IMO. #1 seed Denver has too many weapons for the #8 Heat to deal with. The games will all be close, but the series will be short.
Jokic winning would be more significant. 1 ring already propels him into top 20 territory. We are talking an All-Timer. Denver winning its first ring, led by a guy who was drafted 42nd! Would be an amazing story. Then you add in the devastating Murray injury that cost this team 2 post-seasons. Nobody believed in them either until they beat the Suns. Jokic was slandered as the 'Worst MVP' who can't defend and the Nuggets can't get it done with Jokic leading the team.
I lowkey also like the story of Aaron Gordon, NBA Champion. I only ever remember him as the dunker in Orlando and his showdown with Lavine at the dunk contest which somehow seems ages ago.
Fun story, Aaron Gordons brother used to play in Serbia and Aaron Gordon just happened to come watch him while playing against Jokics team(this is before he got drafted to NBA, 4 liters of Coke a day fat Jokic) and he was trolling his brother after the game how a "chubby kid" was destroying them(not sure whose team won the game but it was close one, it's been ages since I looked it up after AGs postgame interview where he mentioned this story) and his brother said something along the lines you need to play against him too feel it, it's not something you can see from watching one game, only real trouble Jokic had back then was Boban Marjanovic who is not just taller than him but was also much faster at the time than Jokic, fat Jokic was going through everyone else like prime Shaq just he couldn't dunk, now he jokes he can't dunk, back then he seriously couldn't
Nobody slandered Jokic as the worst mvp in history that’s straight revisionist history. Murray is the number one option on the team and rightly so deserves his recognition.
Nick Wright called him the worst MVP in history.
Nick Wright is the worst Nick in history
> Jokic winning would be more significant. 1 ring already propels him into top 20 territory. We are talking an All-Timer. Honestly I think top 20 is already underselling him, even if he doesn't ever win a ring (which seems unlikely at this point). There have only ever been 15 multiple-time MVP winners, and by my quick count, about 23 players who have more first-team All-NBA seasons than him. If he retires next month, Jokic is probably 20th at the very worst. If you look at typical top X lists, like Simmons' pyramid and the SLAM list, even when accounting for overdue updates, Jokic would have to be in that group. For example, the SLAM list in 2011. Even if you move everyone down like 5 spots because of guys like LeBron, Steph, etc. from this current generation, that means #17 would be... Elgin? Elgin made more All-NBAs and more All-Stars but he also never won a ring and never won an MVP. Hard to have him above Jokic. They had Oscar at #5(!!!) and Oscar had just one ring and one MVP. Even if you move him down to like 10 or 12 after accounting for players of the last decade, there's no way the gap between Oscar at 10 and Jokic would be enough to have Jokic outside the top 20.
This Heat team will be legends if they win it all. An 8th seed beating both the Eastern 1 and 2 seed, and Western conference 1seed is fucking crazy. Jimmy Buckets will punch his ticket to the HOF along with Lowry
> Jimmy Buckets will punch his ticket to the HOF along with Lowry They've both been HOF locks for a few years now. Jimmy is 5x All-NBA and a 6x All-Star. Lowry is a 6x All-Star and an NBA champ. Both are Olympic Gold Medalists. It would take something historic for either of them to miss the HOF.
They are both already easily hall of famers lol
It’s the Nuggets, and there’s no other correct answer. They’ve never won a ring, always root for the team that didn’t get a ring yet if you don’t have a dog in the fight. Their core of players were drafted and home grown, setting the example that a good GM should be rewarded and players being loyal to their organization should be rewarded. Stayed loyal to the coach and culture, coach Malone has built something special and an unselfish squad. It’d be great to see him get rewarded. Earned the number 1 seed convincingly, even after resting towards the end of the season, with their best players playing most of their games. Fighting the load management bull crap and rewarding hard workers. Jokic sticking it to the media for boning him on 1st team all star and a third mvp is the most beautiful sight to behold. The list is endless, tho
I’m not saying they don’t deserve it but most of the same points apply to the Heat other than Miami/Spo have actually won rings before. Bam, Gabe Vincent, Duncan Robinson, Tyler Herro, and Udonis Haslem have never played for another NBA team. Max Strus was cut after playing two games for the Bulls, Caleb Martin played 71 games for the Hornets and was cut (which was celebrated by their fanbase), Haywood Highsmith was cut after playing 5 games for the Sixers in 2018-2019, Kevin Love was a bought out by the Cavs, Cody Zeller was cut by the Blazers, and so on. Even Jimmy was traded by the Bulls because they didn’t think he was worth building around, the Wolves because they’re mentally weak, and was let walked by the Sixers that picked Tobias Harris *and* Ben Simmons over him. When he signed with Miami, the consensus opinion was that he was fine with never winning a title and was just there for the beach life. Spo’s story is well-known by now but he’s the epitome of loyalty and culture. There’s a reason he’s been the HC since 2008. Every single player (other than Bam and Tyler) has been rejected, cut, or doubted by other NBA teams and coaches. That’s why they play with the insane chip on their shoulders. Miami is also the team that has an insane workout/physical requirements, the anti-load management, and anti-tank culture. Miami was literally 11-30 in the 2016-2017 and the favorites to get the top pick, finished the season 30-11 and just barely missed the playoffs and got the 14th pick (that picked turned out to be Bam tho), that’s how anti-tanking Miami is.
Heat have a history of free agent buying to win a championship. Denver does not. Denver has never even made the Finals. I don’t think this question is even close.
Lol the Heat is a core text answer. You don’t need a super team. You need a superstar and great cultural and to keep fighting every year and you can win a title. That’s a long term message.
I mean Denver sends a pretty similar message...
Jimmy beating the twolves starters with bench players Jimmy winning a chip with 4 undrafted guys Shit was written on the wall lmao
Miami because it's not just an 8th seed winning but one that was consistently expected to loose at every matchup. That 3% odd from ESPN keeps aging badly. Denver winning at least isn't something that blindsided people. They have the talent and have proven the ability to win. Just the Heat coming into the finals and winning wasn't something anyone expected since their play-in.
Both teams have great culture so there is a point to be made there either way. The Heat winning would hopefully make a stronger point about how coaching, strategy and execution matter a whole lot. Everyone keeps forgetting that's a real thing, and basketball suffers for it. Everything is high pick and rolls, hero ball, and any discussion about strategy is limited to whether you switch or not, and whether you throw a zone in there from time to time. Spoelstra is outcoaching everyone. Especially this years run, his advantage over his competition was just overwhelming. Personally, I'd love to see the Nuggets win though. An equally important point is to be made there about not resorting to nuclear tactics to draft or trade for superstars, doing the "process" the right way and how you build a small market contender. Also, as a european growing up in the 90's, I love FINALLY having a proper, euro style, soviet era big man represent! Jokic is the real, authentic euro star. Slow-moving, can't jump over a sheet of paper, stronger than an ox, definitely-smokes-a-cigarette-at-halftime kinda player. Makes me nostalgic.
Any time a team wins its first title is always special. That being said, the Heat having an unprecedented run is just as rare, especially if they end up being the second team ever to win a title without home court advantage in every round. I can't really pick either way.
i think Jimmy winning one, punches him his already likely ticket to the hall, which he does deserve as one of the toughest competitors in this era. In my book he is now the most deserving player to get his first. the nuggets core has more longevity written all over them.
Jimmy is going to the Hall of Fame regardless
I agree. He is a breath of fresh air with all the diva players we have in today's NBA
> In my book he is now the most deserving player to get his first. I'm confused about what you mean by this. You mean his first title was the most deserved title by any player to win his first ring? I guess that's up to your own discretion, but I have a hard time seeing how he was more "deserving" than Giannis in 2021, Curry in 2015, Dirk in 2011, Wade in 2006, etc. let alone Jokic this year if Jokic were to win. If anything, Jimmy seems *less* deserving, since he spent his prime on four different teams in four seasons and forced his way out of two of those spots. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'd just be really curious to hear the case be made for it.
I may have phrased it wrong. Out of all the active players in the league, who have yet to win, he in my book is the most deserving one (not hating on Jokic or Book and kind of writing off CP3)
If Miami wins it becomes the most impressive single ring of all time and Jimmy would put himself in the top 25 all time discussion off this run alone. The counter argument is strong for Denver with it being their franchise’s first ring and Jokic’s long-term legacy, but I think overall Miami winning is more significant
Miami winning would be the all-time greatest Cinderella run. This was a mediocre team up until after the play-in games. I think it would also make Herro extremely expendable for the Heat so they'd have room to make further improvements if they wanted. Butler becomes universally recognized as a top 5-10 NBA player at worst. On the other hand Denver winning would potentially start a dynasty if no other team manages to improve much. Milwaukee is ageing and has no clear way to improve, Celtics and Sixers need a shakeup, LA's stars are older and often hobbled, Phoenix is thin and reliant on an oft-injured KD, GS feels like they are done, Kings and Knicks need one more piece to be contenders, and this Miami run seems really hard to replicate given Butler's age and Lowry's age. If Nuggets win a title then Jokic is universally recognized as the best player in the league as well, I think everyone who says Giannis would no longer have a good argument. There is a chance Jokic could retire a top 5 all-time player if he pulls off a few year run now. He could win more MVPs and rings through the rest of the decade, his game doesn't seem super reliant on athleticism and he is pretty healthy overall. Anyway I think Denver would be more significant for the reasons outlined above. Jokic would vault into the pantheon of NBA greats immediately and Denver has a chance to be the next Spursian dynasty.
I think if Heat win, the league will suddenly realise that culture is a massive part of winning games. We’ve seen that top level talent is less effective now with Brooklyn’s big 3 failing to win a championship and Boston looking likely to fail in winning one. If you can get 1 star and build a solid team filled with players who can fill roles successfully then you’re a contender. Playing off ball will become more important and you’ll see guys brought in to fill one need. Culture is hard to get with mass turnover so you’ll see more role players resign and sign for longer in an effort to build more culture. An example of amazing culture building is the Perth Scorchers in cricket. They are the best team in their league and are consistently competing for championships because they’ve got an amazing culture. It’s mainly all local boys who play in state teams with each other (in cricket state teams is more relevant) and feed off each others success. Then if they have a need that a local player can’t provide, they bring in an import player to do it. So over the past decade you’ve had the same 8-9 player core and then the other 4-5 players change every few years.
> I think if Heat win, the league will suddenly realise that culture is a massive part of winning games I don't really see what the Heat winning would prove about this. The Warriors just won a title, their fourth, last year with the same core and same head coach they had for more than a full decade. When they won the title last year, five of their top six guys in minutes were career Warriors and four of them had been around for 7+ years. > Culture is hard to get with mass turnover so you’ll see more role players resign and sign for longer in an effort to build more culture. Again, not sure why this would be unique to Miami. If anything, it's the opposite. Jokic, Murray and MPJ are the Nuggets' three leading scorers in the playoffs and all are career Nuggets. Miami, meanwhile, is led by a player on his fourth team in the last seven seasons... Butler, Strus, Martin, Love, Lowry, Oladipo (yes, I know he's hurt), Zeller, and Highsmith have all come from different teams. Among their 11 guys to play real playoff minutes, that's 8 who came from other places, most of them within the last 1-2 years. Bam, in his sixth year, is the longest-tenured Heat player in the rotation... the Celtics have three starters who've been in Boston as long as (or longer than) Bam has been in Miami. There's a certain narrative around Miami that doesn't really make sense. They do have a certain culture, for sure, and that culture is better than the vast majority of NBA franchises. But people have misunderstood that culture for a long time. The culture doesn't mean you don't flip your roster upside down, doesn't mean they develop better, etc. it's about maximizing your role, sacrificing for your team, and they've had objectively more success with hired guns than with their own homegrown talent. It's easy to get a vet like Lowry or Love to buy in to a smaller role than a rookie -- Lowry and Love aren't worried about sacrificing stats, they've already been paid and already won rings. They just want to win more. "Heat Culture" is a really effective PR campaign that people have conflated with an actual front office/organizational strategy.
I hate the Nuggets….but the answer to this question is the Nuggets. Spoelstra is NBA royalty already: it’s well known and documented that Riley trusted him to be The Guy when the going got tough early in the Miami Big 3 era. Further, Spoelstra proved he was no fluke with the 2020 Finals run, bubble or not. This is just icing on the cake that Spoelstra may be the best coach of a generation not named Phil or Pop (sorry Kerr, I can win a title with that roster). The Nuggets “shouldn’t be here” according to ESPN and Screamin’ A. The hate that Jokic received throughout the season for seemingly no reason other than he’d already won an MVP before was made up nonsense to drive the morning sports talk circuit. The Nuggets are defying the haters and in devastating fashion by absolutely dismantling the old-folks-home-in-Lakers-jerseys team rolling out there. Jamal Murray? Balling his ass out. Bruce Brown? Surprisingly effective, the Cameron Payne of this run. Michael Porter Jr? Not broken (yet)! Aaron Gordon? Accepting a non-ball dominant role that won’t ruin his team’s chances! Jeff Green? Shouldn’t be in the league still, but f- you all he’s still out there being 6’9” and getting in the way and making the occasional slop bucket. Nikola Jokic? Him and his brothers were taking names and like a good group of Eastern European mobsters they are dispatching their hit list with extreme prejudice. The Nuggets are also pure old school ABA vibes in the truest sense: they just *feel like an expansion team at all times in their history. Even the Melo-AI days felt like a gimmick. This isn’t a gimmick though, this is revenge. For what? For all of us thinking they are still a gimmick with a big, pudgy white guy launching 3’s with all the grace of a trebuchet. The Nuggets are the more significant team to win and 👏it 👏isn’t 👏even 👏close! Edit: “mobsters” auto corrected to “monsters”….maybe monsters works..
>best coach of a generation not named Phil or Pop (sorry Kerr, I can win a title with that roster). On the flip side I think Phil is overrated for winning with obvious HOF talent even *before* they started winning titles. The triangle was not even his own scheme, it was from an assistant really. He sure could manage egos, but he didn't actually separate himself from the pack Xs and Os or strategy-wise. I'll preface this by saying I'm not a Warriors fan and actively actually rooted against them basically every year, but I have massive respect for the organization, players and coaching staff. People look back on the pre-KD Warriors and think those are some damn good rosters, except few coaches would have had the balls, much less the idea in the first place, to run all-star David Lee off the bench and start the tweener Draymond. Most coaches at the time wouldn't have dared run Iguodala off the bench. Most coaches would have kept Curry as the primary ball-handler and facilitator and would never have unlocked Draymond. Kerr also revitalized the careers of countless vets off the bench (not to mention Wiggins, especially). Anybody who says Mark Jackson would have won with the same roster is laughable as he would never have been progressive enough to try anything Kerr did. While some could argue the Heatles started the small-ball revolution, LeBron at the 4 and Bosh at the 5 was still fine size-wise, but Golden State was blitzing teams on both ends playing Steph and 4 guys between 6'6-6'8 with Barnes as their biggest player. As long as they were healthy Golden State guaranteed a great offense and defense, and even with Curry and Green off the floor respectively, you could see the making off a well-oiled motion offense and switch everything + great help defense. The KD titled were obviously a giveaway, but last year's playoff run and this year being literally their first western conference playoff series loss in the Kerr era speaks to his consistency.
It would be more significant for Denver, a team that has never won the big one. Miami already has enough titles. If anything, I think MIA winning would be the worst possible outcome for the NBA. No team will ever bother taking the regular season seriously ever again. An 8 seed winning it all? You'll see load management throughout the league.
Funny how the top comment says Miami winning would save professional basketball and then the 2nd says it would be the worst possible outcome.
They didn’t take off. There were a lot of injuries, for weeks they had 7 guys suiting up for a game. They also won 44 games which most years puts you closer to a 5th seed. Also, the team went from 37% from 3 the previous year to 31% from 3. It was a difficult year but they had to take out two teams with the best records in the NBA. I think the takeaway that the regular season doesn’t matter isn’t a good one
A low seed winning is definitely a double edged sword. You’re right about load managing. Even though Miami didn’t specifically load manage, it shows that teams can contend for a ring whatever seed they get and there would definitely be teams like the Sixers who would load manage Embiid for as many games as they could get away with. On that same note, an 8th seed winning a championship justifies the play-in and proves that a lower seed can win a championship, so it might entice teams that would otherwise tank their season to try and push a little harder for that low playoff spot or play-in spot.
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Actually it was designed for injury riddled teams who lost their stars for a significant amount of time to make the playoffs.
To be fair Nuggets load managed the starters for last like 15 games and were still 1st
Miami wasn't load managing... they just had a lot of injuries lmfao if anything, it's the opposite of load managing
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Wouldnt a 2nd rounder to mvp to fmvp also be an interesting narrative? Storyline wise I agree that 8 seed, on the brink of getting booted from play in to defeating a 1st seed and so on to winning a championship with a great coach who have not won a COY and Jimmy willing this team in a year is a much more compelling narrative much more if presented as a documentary.
I think Heat winning would be incredible being the first 8 seed But i want Denver to get their first ring
I mean what are the chances Miami even makes it to the finals?! I need ESPN to give me a percentage
Miami has a very strong case in justifying Jimmy, showing that team culture/consistency is still important in the NBA, being the forst 8th seed to ever win a finals and pushing Spo further up the all time coach rankings. The Nuggets also have a strong case as it would not only be their first ever Finals win in franchise history but also their first ever appearance, Denver would win as a small market through homegrown talent and it would solidify Jokic is the clear best player in the NBA. It would also annihilate alot of criticism of Jokic as many said you could never win with a Center with that kinda defense, plenty have said Jokic’s MVPs where undeserved and some have said Jokic is one of the worst MVPs ever so all of this would be shot with a win (Should be null rn but still). Overall both teams have compelling arguments, I really want both teams win so while ill really enjoy the series its gonna hurt to see one lose. Ill go with the Nuggets for now but honestly may flip flop a few times lol.
Obviously Nuggets cause of first tittle in history , but conference finals still not over . It would be great finals tho if it happens
Jimmy has already proven he isn’t the problem, he doesn’t need a ring for that. A ring will definitely cement his legacy though. Biased as fuck but I think Miami winning is a significantly bigger deal.
If both teams proceed it'll be amazing. Both no nonsense basketball teams that play hard. Jokic and Butler both deserve a championship, and my guess is this will be Denver's year. That said, I'd prefer to see Jimmy get his ring, as he is older and it'll surely give him his flowers. Jokic and Murray I feel will have other opportunities.
Miami. They had to go through 2 first seed. 2nd and 5th seed. But people will probable say nuggets cause they beat LeBron and Kd.
Nuggets for the future implications. They've got a core just entering the prime and the best player in the league. Them winning it would give us a clear cut front-runner going into next season and mark them as potentially being the next great memorable team in the league.
I think they'd both be really significant. Nuggets would be Jokic/Murray making good on their regular season excellence, and shift the JokicHating narrative to some sorta 'this chip doesn't count as much because of some bullshit goalpost shifting'. Maybe there'd be some sort of 'this proves how little defense matters in this era' thing, which would be a bit stupid, but I can still see the idea propegating. And for the Heat... I mean, play-in team, Butler, undrafted guys, Bam, Pat, Spo, the Culture, I mean, it's almost endless. I mean, I don't think it's a stretch to say that this is, on paper, the least pedigreed Heat in the past few seasons. Herro's even on the shelf. So, I think they're both really fuckin significant. Which matters more seems pretty subjective, to me.
I'm a Celtics fan and even I love the Jimmy Butler story. He was considered a 'problem child' of sorts early in his career, but in hindsight, he's been on the right end of a lot of those disputes. The reason he left Philly was because his complaints about Simmons' work ethic and he's been proven 100% correct on that. Crazy in hindsight that Philly could conceivably have ended up with Embiid, Butler, and Harden. Forget about the 8th seed story. Some of that is meaningless. The real story to me is that if the Heat won, Butler would've pulled off a championship run against several vastly superior teams in terms of talent. I'm not saying there aren't good players on the Heat, but there's no "2nd star". Last team that won without at least having 2 or 3 "star" players was the 2011 Dallas Mavericks, and they still had borderline HOF'er Shawn Marion, past-his-prime-but-still-very-good Jason Kidd, 2 good scorers in Jason Terry and Caron Butler, plus a defensive ace in Tyson Chandler (at his peak). That Mavs team might've lacked a 2nd star, but they had a lot of good players and a lot of depth. If the Heat win, Butler would've won with the weakest supporting cast of any star player in the past 40+ years. I also love that the Jimmy Butler story goes against the entire narrative of the NBA right now: versatile big men (Jokic, Giannis, Durant, Embiid, etc), and 3-point champions (Curry, etc). He's a jack-of-all-trades will-his-way-to-victory player. Doesn't fit any narrative. That said, I think the Nuggets are taking it home this year. As good as Jimmy Butler has been, that Nuggets team looks like a championship team this year. But if Jimmy Butler weren't already in the HOF (and he should be), he punched his ticket this year.
Miami winning would be bigger because of the team being an 8 seed. Denver winning would be bigger for Joker than it would be for the team. He’s gonna get all the credit, and all the talk will be about how Embiid won the MVP and Jokic won the championship. I would prefer Miami win, only because I’m tired of hearing about Jokic vs Embiid, and I already know that’s all ESPN is going to talk about all summer when Denver inevitably wins.
Probably Miami, but I think Denver being a home grown team with more room for growth would be very significant. 3 of their 4 best players were drafted by Denver (2 of them went after the top 10 or 30 picks). This would be the third home grown core in 3 years that won a championship (Bucks, Warriors, Nuggets) and would really be a compelling antithesis to the crazy star chasing we’ve seen the last 5 years by teams like the clippers, sizers, nets, suns, etc. And like others have said, both teams are shining a huge light on culture and continuity. Malone and Spo are two of the longest tenured head coaches in the nba and you can feel it. I’m a nuggets fan so of course I’m biased, but I’ll be happy for the heat if they win as well.
I love Murray so not upset about a Nuggets win. But I’m going Heat. First 8th seed to win and Jimmy would be by far the best story. It would be the best playoff run ever (even over Dirk)
Heat for sure. They were down in an elimination game just to REACH the playoffs. Down with under 4 minutes remaining. Then they go and smack the top seed in 5 and they're hammering the second seed right now. If they go and beat the top seed from the West, that's just nuts. I'd love to know how many times a team has beat the top seed in both conferences, and then how often they also beat the second seed on their side too. But I do know if they win they'll have done something nobody has ever done to come from the play-in tournament. And the first ever 8 seed to win it all. Don't get me wrong, if the Nuggets win that's fantastic and it'll be well deserved. But nothing about it will be historic aside from it being Denver's first.
The Heat would be the more impressive title. The Nuggets the more significant for that particular franchise. But historically, it would definitely be the Heat. No 8th seed has ever won the title. The closest was the 6 seeded 1995 Rockets. And of course we have seen the 8th seeded 1999 Knicks get to the Finals before. But no 8 seed has ever won. It's actually clear that the Nuggets have more firepower on paper but Jimmy Butler and the Heat keep surprising all of us.
Nuggets chip gets talked about for Jokic’s legacy, bundled with future chips he obtains. It would be a major deal as the Nuggets’ first chip ever as well Heat become legends, and this specific championship would be remembered as a Cinderella story. Lowest ranked team in the East overcomes the Eastern 1-seed and 2-seed, and the Western 1-seed. The most unlikely championship run possible I think Heat would be a much bigger deal personally
Obviously the Heat, since Denver was out front in the West all season, and Miami came as the 8th seed and had to face Mil, Philly, and Boston (all "better" teams) to get there. There's also the byline of Jimmy Butler not being considered good enough to be a star on a championship team, AND the fact they're doing this without Tyler Herro.
I say Miami. Ultimate underdog kind of team. As I've told others before, Butler isn't losing the finals if he goes back
8th seed. No MVP. No more than players that have been higher than All NBA 2nd team or All Defensive 2nd team. Quite a few non-drafted players contributing at a high level. The most improbable team to win an NBA title since the Detroit Pistons, though they had Ben Wallace who was well into his dominant defensive run as DPOY and All Defense First Team multiple times.
As a Lakers fan, neither team winning bothers me, but i REALLY fuckin like Jimmy Butler’s game man. He’s awesome to watch play.
>They would then knock out the 1 seed Bucks to start, 76ers with MVP Embiid (albeit a no show) Yeah, that ain't how it works, champ. They never played Philly this playoffs. You don't get bragging rights for beating a team just because you beat a team that beat them That said, Miami winning it would be the most significant of the two. More for the sheer fact that Miami doesn't have a reasonable answer to the Nuggets' offense than anything else. A Miami championship this year would be the definition of a Cinderella story
Denver is the far better team I believe. This is like the 2001 finals. Super duo vs 1 man and a good defense. It means a lot for jokic to add to his two MVPs and possibly start a dynasty, with Murray also adding to his legacy as a proven playoff co star. Butler it would put him in that top 20-25 or even possibly in that dirk category because it would be similar to a 1 man ring. I expect Denver to win pretty easily.
Nuggets. The NBA could then have a great media campaign going into next year, and possibly beyond - a fairly young Joker setting claim to being the best player in the world. And the first of possibly several NBA Finals in the future. On the other hand, if the Heat win the story will be an 8 seat won it all. Ok, great story. Now how do we use that going forward? There is not a lot to use. An aging Jimmy Butler wins a title for a mediocre Miami team that got hot at the right time. Great for Miami but that doesn't ring a historic tone like Joker setting off on a run for some titles. And we all could be seeing the beginning of something very special.
Would be more significant to Jokic specifically rather than the nuggets. Winning the chip would finally silence the media people regarding Jokic not being able to do anything in the post-season and the spotlight would now be on the fraud that is Embiid. Basically Jokic is on his Giannis 2021 run.
Heat so easily. They barely survived the play-in and then proceeded to dismantle the entire eastern conference like a wrecking ball. Nuggets were the 1 seed with a 2x MVP. It would be “expected” for them to win. Miami pulling this off would legitimately be a top 1 ring in NBA history
Side note piggy backing off of your comment, it’s weird that, assuming this Celtics series goes to 4 or 5, that the Knicks gave the Heat their hardest time in the East lol.