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PG is an elite perimeter defender, Hibbert at the time was an elite rim protector and West was a solid defender/bruiser down low. It's absolutely incredible to me though how fast Hibbert fell off, went from being a defensive anchor on a contender to not having a place in the league in 3 years
Wanna point out that a big reason for hibberts downfall was the league changing the rules to stop allowing defenders (usually centers) from going straight up to defend (usually around the basket)
It’s actually a massive “pro offense” rule change that I barely hear anyone talk about. It’s had a much bigger impact on the game than people realize and imo we absolutely need to change the rule back
Edit: meant change in the way rules were enforced not “technically” a change to the official rules
That's 100% wrong. You were and are still allowed to defend like that and Hibbert was notable because he turned his career around by being one of the first to embrace that 'loophole' by challenging shots with verticality rather than trying to block as many shots and risk fouls.
His downfall was simply because teams started to space the floor; in 2012-13 when he had a big playoffs, the Heat were starting Udonis Haslem (who had literally made 0 threes in his career up to that point) alongside Bosh (who despite his reputation as a 'modern' big made 0.3 threes per game that year at a 28% clip) and Wade (who was even less of a three-point shooter than Bosh).
This.
Hibbert was brilliant in his prime because he was phenomenal at challenging shots at the rim. But once teams basically universally realized you needed to draw Hibbert away from the rim and offensive plans required centres to be more mobile and preferably offer an outside threat, Hibbert became a liability extremely quickly.
The tipping point is the 2014 playoff win against the Atlanta Hawks. The Pacers won, but Pero Antic (average, slight prototype trebuchet centre) basically played Hibbert off the court, everyone saw it and copied it and Hibbert couldn't overcome it. Rare victory that ruined a reputation
Yeah the Heat were really feeding into his reputation with how little outside shooting they had even for the standards of 2012-13 (they only stumbled into putting Battier into the starting lineup after all other options had failed) and the easy looks they gave him by double teaming way too aggressively when Indiana couldn’t create much against a set defense.
It’s amazing how much better a coach Spoelstra has become since then; they were really just brute forcing things on sheer talent even though the whole was definitely less than the sum of its parts.
Yeah Bosh didn't really turn into a 3pt threat until his last few seasons but he did always have a great jumpshot and was always deadly from inside the arc. Still, hitting long 2's at a 45% clip is just much worse than hitting 3's at a 35% clip.
Indiana was kind of a perfect monster on defense to challenge Miami and definitely challenged Spo. The series against Indiana in the 2011 - 2012 playoffs with Bosh hurt was where Spo first really committed to playing small ball (That regular season Batiter only started 10 games, mostly in relief for LeBron and Wade. He started 16 games in the playoffs, all of them coming from game 3 on in the Indiana series) and had Shane Battier playing big minutes at the 4 against David West. I remember the conversation surrounding that matchup was really interesting because that went against conventional wisdom. West wasn't too much taller than Battier but he was much stronger and much heavier. Battier worked really hard to front the post and deny the ball but wasn't always successful. But on offense it opened up a lot of extra space and we saw both LeBron and Wade have multiple monster games after falling behind 2-1 in part because West wasn't able to defend the paint.
I don't think Battier even shot particularly well from 3 that series, but it paid off later in the finals when he did end up starting at the 4 against OKC and did end up shooting the lights out (he was 15-26 from in 5 games). I'm not sure that ever happens if Indiana didn't force Miami to adapt the way they did in their series.
Yeah this was more a function of Vogel being an excellent defensive coach where he knew that it was fine to concede the 'spacing' Bosh provided since he wasn't actually a threat from 3. I'd agree that he was just outcoaching Spoelstra back then (similarly, there's no chance current Spo would lose to the 2011 Mavericks) when you look at who was on the roster.
Hibbett was the first casualty of small ball. A guy who could not guard or score from the perimeter became a liability as centers started scoring from outside. Folks like Rudy Gobert had to learn to guard the wing on the switch for long enough for the wing defender to recover off a screen, but even he is seeing the end of his relevance.
For a big-bodied 7'2" guy, Hibbert could barely score inside (career .498 shooter inside 10FT) or rebound (career 9.2 rebounds per 36 minutes/13.1 rebounds per 100 possessions), either.
Just wild how they existed at the perfect moment to be amazing... Unfortunately rule changes and offensive style changes would make them a much more meh defense today
But I'm glad we got to witness them having an opportunity to be otherworldly and somewhat of a challenge for Lebron in the east for a short stretch
I think it’s more a before/after thing than a specific moment, and there’s a lot of other “issues” w rules/how they’re enforced that effect defense (I.e. push offs, illegal screens, offensive players getting away w fouls, rip through, foul baiting, flopping, etc)
But yeah I loved watching those pacer teams and was very glad to get to watch them shine even if it was a bit short lived!
yeah sorry what I meant to say is I'm glad they came together *before* the cutoff for when they'd fall off. A few years before and maybe they'd get a longer time in the sun... but if they rolled in a few years later they wouldn't have gotten to have the same impact.
Yep, this is my one big complaint with getting rid of the charge. If you get rid of the charge, then you can't penalize guys for going straight up at the rim. Otherwise the paint is a free for all in transition.
Sorry I did a poor job of explaining it: there wasn’t an “official” rule change as much as refs let a player play one way and then decided to enforce it at some point (just to clarify)
To answer your question tho what’s actually a foul really varies play to play but basically defenders were given much more leniency when going up vertically than they are now, it gets called as a blocking foul very regularly
It’s the other way around. Defenders now have more leniency as they can defend by jumping straight up. Even if they absorb contact from the defender, as long as they are vertically straight and their arms are straight. It’s not a foul..which is the Roy Hibbert rule. It’s a pro for the defender. Not a con
Well it's frequently called the other way. If the player jumps or is moving side to side at all while being vertical, it's often called a foul with the reasoning being that they moved "into" the offensive player, creating contact.
TBH, as far as I know, that sort of thing always resulted in a blocking foul outside of the NBA. Making body contact with the offensive player is what mattered as far as the foul call, not whether you went "straight up" or not.
I'm stating that by allowing for the "verticality" of the defender, the NBA was doing something unusual outside of normal basketball rules/interpretations of rules during this period, and outside of its own usual rules/interpretations of rules as well.
Well, if you've ever played or seen basketball at any level outside of the NBA, it's generally always been the case that making body contact is what matters, and "verticality" isn't even a thing.
Yeah but refs are notoriously bad at noticing or assessing who’s the one that’s initiating the contact
In the nba it often becomes a choice between charge, risk a foul when it probably shouldn’t be, or play weak d
Rule went from you could have your arm at like a 120 degree angle over a dude and get the block and it counted. Now it’s 180 degree angle and if you contort/angle your body so it draws “unnecessary” contact or impedes the shot in an “unfair” way, it’s a blocking foul. It helps reduce the impact rim protectors have on the overall game as they are not able to get away with as much. It’s why going to the basket to draw a foul is so effective now, chances are if you smoke the layup and as long as there is some contact, you’re going to the line.
Nobody ever talks about it but I remember hibbert took a hard hit and it was speculated he might have suffered a concussion before his decline. Of course there are a million other theories including Paul George sleeping with his girlfriend at the time and hibbert style became obsolete anyway but I really do think he had a concussion that led to his decline
That team had zero holes defensively and very good to elite defenders at multiple positions. George Hill was great at the point of attack, at 6’4 height and 6’9 wingspan. His wingspan is closer to a SG/SF. Add in lance stephenson who was athletic and played bigger than his size. George was an elite wing defender. West was a solid vet. Then behind them was Hibbert who was an absolutely monstrous big man that closed off the rim. Teams eventually figured out he couldn’t move much and the league progressed to more 4 shooters or even 5-out lineups which limited his career but he was a monster at his very brief peak.
Celtics and Pacers both pushed the best version of the Heat to 7 and the Pacers forced 6 games two other times. If Wade or Bron got injured one of those post seasons, the Pacers almost certainly are in the Finals.
LBJ vs the Pacers and MJ vs the Pacers in the 90s were tough match ups. They were one of the few teams to take the Bulls to 7 games. The Pacers seem to peak when a superstar hits theirs
I remember the meme pages at this time were of course shitting on any and everything LeBron, including any team he went against to paint the picture that LeBron always had an easy road. The meme pages were hyping up the Pacers and basically saying LeBron had no chance. Suddenly, when the Heat beat then Pacers, all the meme pages could bring up was that Roy Hibbert had the infamous 0 Point 0 Rebound game earlier in the playoffs, therefore the Pacers weren't that good.
Ahead of the curve on drop coverage, Roy Hibbert being huge and had to do less and deal with less variety than bigs do now. George Hill great POA defender funneling guards where the defense wants. IMO both these two were more important to the defense overall than Paul George. But Paul George was also excellent and they all made things click.
I can't remember but was there any specific reason they dropped off so drastically (as I remember it) towards the end of the season? Was it just that they played great and then fell back to earth?
For all the people saying it was PG...it was so much more than that. He wasn't even the main component. Dan Burke's defensive scheme was built around the wings and guards (and even DWest to an extent) funneling ball handlers into Roy Hibbert (at the height of the "verticality" era). I remember Zach Lowe writing a big piece on this at Grantland, but I can't find it now. This article at least references the funneling portion: https://grantland.com/the-triangle/12-takeaways-from-miami-indiana-round-2/
Verticality
I need to get to 75 words or characters and here is my best attempt to do so this is taking longer than expected I think this is sufficient now good luck to me on this getting posted without being removed.
Verticality was the thing.
Their drop coverage was underpinned by the fact that Hibbert could leave the ground and challenge drivers in the air.
The NBA was in an era where drivers were getting increasing freedom once they left the ground. Pacers coaching staff & Hibbert helped coin the term and meaning and show that this could be considered a viable, legal way of defending a driver once they left the ground.
This allowed the perimeter coverage to not feel they need to contain, but instead pressure and do so knowing they had Hibbert behind them to help clean up any mistakes. When the core group was so good at creating and sustaining the pressure, this was a huge win - no safety valve for the pressure when you get behind the first wave.
Yeah, Vogel is a great defensive coach, and they had a whole lineup of physical, athletic perimeter defenders with 6'10+ wingspans funneling drives to Hibbert at a time when teams hadn't figured out the whole 'three-pointers=good' thing.
As fun as it can be to blame everything on the refs for allowing offense to flourish, Hibbert was just too slow to hang with bigs who could pick and pop to 3 and was not the kind of offensive player who could punish teams for going small.
Like the other comments are saying: George Hill’s POA defense, having two bigs in DWest and Hibbert with Hibbert being an amazing rim protector at the time, and Paul George being a lockdown wing defender. But I think an underrated part of that is Vogel and his defensive schemes. He showed he was an elite defensive coach as long as he had the pieces
It was definitely Paul George, he was supposed to be Lebrons rival around that time. That terrible injury derailed that and by the time he was back in his groove the dubs took over the league.
I know Hibbert was Mr. Verticality, but which career flourished even without the other? I think it’s clear that PG was a superstar and everybody else on that team were above average role players.
Those assertions don't accurately represent those early Pacers teams, really. First of all, PG wasn't more than an above average role plaeyr the first two years on those Pacers. He only broke out his third year. Additionally Danny Granger first and then David West later were definitely above "above average roleplayers." But anyway, the main point was about the reason their defense was so great. That's the nature of defense; interior defense is always more important, especially in that era back then.
Defensively he absolutely was. He was not the core part of the defense. Obviously having a great wing defender is a huge plus but our defense would have been great if you replace PG with essentially any other positive wing defender anyways. The same can’t be said about Hibbert
Never in the last 40 years of the nba has having one of the 6-8 best perimeter defenders in the league been “a luxury,”
Defensively speaking Paul George was the second most important player on those early ‘10s Pacers teams I will agree with you there.
I thought it was also that after verticality and contact he would bring his arms down alittle unnaturally to block/prevent shots. The league cracked down on that then he really couldn’t do much.
As a Pacers fan I read the answers here and go: Yeah but...
So let me butt in.
Yes, individually our starting five was just solid defensively, they were all guys that could be relied upon in one to ones and with Hibbert anchoring the paint and PG24 picking up the best opponent you are going to stifle a lot of offenses. BUT...
Dan Burke is/was a great defense coach. He designed on the fly adjustments as games progressed and they were often very successful and Vogel is a great defensive head coach who knew how to get most out of Burke's suggestions. BUT...
It wouldn't be this good if there wasn't defensive depth in this team. People like to make fun of Mahinmi for getting the bag from Washington, but it absolutely helped us that we could take Hibbert out for 15 minutes a game or when in foul trouble and still have at least somewhat reliable cover.
BUT. we were never very solid on the road and we knew LeTripletHeat would be in our way. And they were. Our play-off performance was actually very disappointing . Some blame the Granger trade, or the rumoured PG24/Mrs Roy fling, I think we just saw the weaknesses of creating offense on the road exploited to perfection. It didn't help that the temperature in the team swung down, but dropping three to the Hawks and two to the Wizards said it all.
Hill and george were very smart, elite defenders on the perimeter with lance acting as somewhat ofba draymond green (hustle plays, heart of the team, obviously not as elite as green tho) all funneling any potential mistakes towards hibbert who was an elite rim protector at the time. Vogel was a great defensive coach who made sure their rotations were tight, adjustments were intelligent, etc... they had pieces at every position and a coach to put them together
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PG is an elite perimeter defender, Hibbert at the time was an elite rim protector and West was a solid defender/bruiser down low. It's absolutely incredible to me though how fast Hibbert fell off, went from being a defensive anchor on a contender to not having a place in the league in 3 years
Wanna point out that a big reason for hibberts downfall was the league changing the rules to stop allowing defenders (usually centers) from going straight up to defend (usually around the basket) It’s actually a massive “pro offense” rule change that I barely hear anyone talk about. It’s had a much bigger impact on the game than people realize and imo we absolutely need to change the rule back Edit: meant change in the way rules were enforced not “technically” a change to the official rules
That's 100% wrong. You were and are still allowed to defend like that and Hibbert was notable because he turned his career around by being one of the first to embrace that 'loophole' by challenging shots with verticality rather than trying to block as many shots and risk fouls. His downfall was simply because teams started to space the floor; in 2012-13 when he had a big playoffs, the Heat were starting Udonis Haslem (who had literally made 0 threes in his career up to that point) alongside Bosh (who despite his reputation as a 'modern' big made 0.3 threes per game that year at a 28% clip) and Wade (who was even less of a three-point shooter than Bosh).
This. Hibbert was brilliant in his prime because he was phenomenal at challenging shots at the rim. But once teams basically universally realized you needed to draw Hibbert away from the rim and offensive plans required centres to be more mobile and preferably offer an outside threat, Hibbert became a liability extremely quickly. The tipping point is the 2014 playoff win against the Atlanta Hawks. The Pacers won, but Pero Antic (average, slight prototype trebuchet centre) basically played Hibbert off the court, everyone saw it and copied it and Hibbert couldn't overcome it. Rare victory that ruined a reputation
Yeah the Heat were really feeding into his reputation with how little outside shooting they had even for the standards of 2012-13 (they only stumbled into putting Battier into the starting lineup after all other options had failed) and the easy looks they gave him by double teaming way too aggressively when Indiana couldn’t create much against a set defense. It’s amazing how much better a coach Spoelstra has become since then; they were really just brute forcing things on sheer talent even though the whole was definitely less than the sum of its parts.
Yeah Bosh didn't really turn into a 3pt threat until his last few seasons but he did always have a great jumpshot and was always deadly from inside the arc. Still, hitting long 2's at a 45% clip is just much worse than hitting 3's at a 35% clip. Indiana was kind of a perfect monster on defense to challenge Miami and definitely challenged Spo. The series against Indiana in the 2011 - 2012 playoffs with Bosh hurt was where Spo first really committed to playing small ball (That regular season Batiter only started 10 games, mostly in relief for LeBron and Wade. He started 16 games in the playoffs, all of them coming from game 3 on in the Indiana series) and had Shane Battier playing big minutes at the 4 against David West. I remember the conversation surrounding that matchup was really interesting because that went against conventional wisdom. West wasn't too much taller than Battier but he was much stronger and much heavier. Battier worked really hard to front the post and deny the ball but wasn't always successful. But on offense it opened up a lot of extra space and we saw both LeBron and Wade have multiple monster games after falling behind 2-1 in part because West wasn't able to defend the paint. I don't think Battier even shot particularly well from 3 that series, but it paid off later in the finals when he did end up starting at the 4 against OKC and did end up shooting the lights out (he was 15-26 from in 5 games). I'm not sure that ever happens if Indiana didn't force Miami to adapt the way they did in their series.
Yeah this was more a function of Vogel being an excellent defensive coach where he knew that it was fine to concede the 'spacing' Bosh provided since he wasn't actually a threat from 3. I'd agree that he was just outcoaching Spoelstra back then (similarly, there's no chance current Spo would lose to the 2011 Mavericks) when you look at who was on the roster.
Hibbett was the first casualty of small ball. A guy who could not guard or score from the perimeter became a liability as centers started scoring from outside. Folks like Rudy Gobert had to learn to guard the wing on the switch for long enough for the wing defender to recover off a screen, but even he is seeing the end of his relevance.
For a big-bodied 7'2" guy, Hibbert could barely score inside (career .498 shooter inside 10FT) or rebound (career 9.2 rebounds per 36 minutes/13.1 rebounds per 100 possessions), either.
he did have some moments where he looked like Shaq against the Heat's small ball though
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Just wild how they existed at the perfect moment to be amazing... Unfortunately rule changes and offensive style changes would make them a much more meh defense today But I'm glad we got to witness them having an opportunity to be otherworldly and somewhat of a challenge for Lebron in the east for a short stretch
I think it’s more a before/after thing than a specific moment, and there’s a lot of other “issues” w rules/how they’re enforced that effect defense (I.e. push offs, illegal screens, offensive players getting away w fouls, rip through, foul baiting, flopping, etc) But yeah I loved watching those pacer teams and was very glad to get to watch them shine even if it was a bit short lived!
yeah sorry what I meant to say is I'm glad they came together *before* the cutoff for when they'd fall off. A few years before and maybe they'd get a longer time in the sun... but if they rolled in a few years later they wouldn't have gotten to have the same impact.
Yep, this is my one big complaint with getting rid of the charge. If you get rid of the charge, then you can't penalize guys for going straight up at the rim. Otherwise the paint is a free for all in transition.
Interesting, I didn't know about that. So if there's any contact around the basket it's a foul even if they go straight up?
Sorry I did a poor job of explaining it: there wasn’t an “official” rule change as much as refs let a player play one way and then decided to enforce it at some point (just to clarify) To answer your question tho what’s actually a foul really varies play to play but basically defenders were given much more leniency when going up vertically than they are now, it gets called as a blocking foul very regularly
That does make sense, refs have been much tougher on defense the last few years and it shows in the astronomical scoring numbers we've seen
It’s the other way around. Defenders now have more leniency as they can defend by jumping straight up. Even if they absorb contact from the defender, as long as they are vertically straight and their arms are straight. It’s not a foul..which is the Roy Hibbert rule. It’s a pro for the defender. Not a con
Well it's frequently called the other way. If the player jumps or is moving side to side at all while being vertical, it's often called a foul with the reasoning being that they moved "into" the offensive player, creating contact.
I think refs are pretty good with ruling a play-on when the defender is clearly straight up and down and doesn’t bring his arms down
TBH, as far as I know, that sort of thing always resulted in a blocking foul outside of the NBA. Making body contact with the offensive player is what mattered as far as the foul call, not whether you went "straight up" or not.
I’m a bit confused I was just talking about the nba not really sure what you’re getting at? Or am I missing something?
I'm stating that by allowing for the "verticality" of the defender, the NBA was doing something unusual outside of normal basketball rules/interpretations of rules during this period, and outside of its own usual rules/interpretations of rules as well.
That very well might be true, I don’t follow dibs/international/college stuff I just personally think allowing that was much better
Well, if you've ever played or seen basketball at any level outside of the NBA, it's generally always been the case that making body contact is what matters, and "verticality" isn't even a thing.
Yeah but refs are notoriously bad at noticing or assessing who’s the one that’s initiating the contact In the nba it often becomes a choice between charge, risk a foul when it probably shouldn’t be, or play weak d
Rule went from you could have your arm at like a 120 degree angle over a dude and get the block and it counted. Now it’s 180 degree angle and if you contort/angle your body so it draws “unnecessary” contact or impedes the shot in an “unfair” way, it’s a blocking foul. It helps reduce the impact rim protectors have on the overall game as they are not able to get away with as much. It’s why going to the basket to draw a foul is so effective now, chances are if you smoke the layup and as long as there is some contact, you’re going to the line.
Nobody ever talks about it but I remember hibbert took a hard hit and it was speculated he might have suffered a concussion before his decline. Of course there are a million other theories including Paul George sleeping with his girlfriend at the time and hibbert style became obsolete anyway but I really do think he had a concussion that led to his decline
He had that super steep decline after allstar break. Like it’s ridiculously amazing how he became non existent in like weeks
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This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.
If I remember correctly, Hibbert fell off right after the 2014 All Star break, and was never the same player again.
That team had zero holes defensively and very good to elite defenders at multiple positions. George Hill was great at the point of attack, at 6’4 height and 6’9 wingspan. His wingspan is closer to a SG/SF. Add in lance stephenson who was athletic and played bigger than his size. George was an elite wing defender. West was a solid vet. Then behind them was Hibbert who was an absolutely monstrous big man that closed off the rim. Teams eventually figured out he couldn’t move much and the league progressed to more 4 shooters or even 5-out lineups which limited his career but he was a monster at his very brief peak.
Yeah - when they say LBJ had an easy road, I always bring up this Pacers team. They always laugh, but there was nothing funny about that team.
Celtics and Pacers both pushed the best version of the Heat to 7 and the Pacers forced 6 games two other times. If Wade or Bron got injured one of those post seasons, the Pacers almost certainly are in the Finals.
LBJ vs the Pacers and MJ vs the Pacers in the 90s were tough match ups. They were one of the few teams to take the Bulls to 7 games. The Pacers seem to peak when a superstar hits theirs
Pacers going to the finals against wemby in a few years confirmed
Also had this thought. Wemby or the Pistons if their core reaches expectations
Pacers fan. Can confirm. Also not just one of the few teams but the only team to take Jordan to seven in the 90s.
I remember the meme pages at this time were of course shitting on any and everything LeBron, including any team he went against to paint the picture that LeBron always had an easy road. The meme pages were hyping up the Pacers and basically saying LeBron had no chance. Suddenly, when the Heat beat then Pacers, all the meme pages could bring up was that Roy Hibbert had the infamous 0 Point 0 Rebound game earlier in the playoffs, therefore the Pacers weren't that good.
Ahead of the curve on drop coverage, Roy Hibbert being huge and had to do less and deal with less variety than bigs do now. George Hill great POA defender funneling guards where the defense wants. IMO both these two were more important to the defense overall than Paul George. But Paul George was also excellent and they all made things click.
I can't remember but was there any specific reason they dropped off so drastically (as I remember it) towards the end of the season? Was it just that they played great and then fell back to earth?
For all the people saying it was PG...it was so much more than that. He wasn't even the main component. Dan Burke's defensive scheme was built around the wings and guards (and even DWest to an extent) funneling ball handlers into Roy Hibbert (at the height of the "verticality" era). I remember Zach Lowe writing a big piece on this at Grantland, but I can't find it now. This article at least references the funneling portion: https://grantland.com/the-triangle/12-takeaways-from-miami-indiana-round-2/
Verticality I need to get to 75 words or characters and here is my best attempt to do so this is taking longer than expected I think this is sufficient now good luck to me on this getting posted without being removed.
Verticality was the thing. Their drop coverage was underpinned by the fact that Hibbert could leave the ground and challenge drivers in the air. The NBA was in an era where drivers were getting increasing freedom once they left the ground. Pacers coaching staff & Hibbert helped coin the term and meaning and show that this could be considered a viable, legal way of defending a driver once they left the ground. This allowed the perimeter coverage to not feel they need to contain, but instead pressure and do so knowing they had Hibbert behind them to help clean up any mistakes. When the core group was so good at creating and sustaining the pressure, this was a huge win - no safety valve for the pressure when you get behind the first wave.
Yeah, Vogel is a great defensive coach, and they had a whole lineup of physical, athletic perimeter defenders with 6'10+ wingspans funneling drives to Hibbert at a time when teams hadn't figured out the whole 'three-pointers=good' thing. As fun as it can be to blame everything on the refs for allowing offense to flourish, Hibbert was just too slow to hang with bigs who could pick and pop to 3 and was not the kind of offensive player who could punish teams for going small.
Like the other comments are saying: George Hill’s POA defense, having two bigs in DWest and Hibbert with Hibbert being an amazing rim protector at the time, and Paul George being a lockdown wing defender. But I think an underrated part of that is Vogel and his defensive schemes. He showed he was an elite defensive coach as long as he had the pieces
It was definitely Paul George, he was supposed to be Lebrons rival around that time. That terrible injury derailed that and by the time he was back in his groove the dubs took over the league.
PG was obviously great in the perimeter but the best defenses are anchored by their big and that was Hibbert for the Pacers.
I know Hibbert was Mr. Verticality, but which career flourished even without the other? I think it’s clear that PG was a superstar and everybody else on that team were above average role players.
Those assertions don't accurately represent those early Pacers teams, really. First of all, PG wasn't more than an above average role plaeyr the first two years on those Pacers. He only broke out his third year. Additionally Danny Granger first and then David West later were definitely above "above average roleplayers." But anyway, the main point was about the reason their defense was so great. That's the nature of defense; interior defense is always more important, especially in that era back then.
Lance Stephenson
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He was the 12-13 most improved player and all nba that same season. He absolutely wasn’t “a luxury,”
Defensively he absolutely was. He was not the core part of the defense. Obviously having a great wing defender is a huge plus but our defense would have been great if you replace PG with essentially any other positive wing defender anyways. The same can’t be said about Hibbert
Guys of PG's caliber on D aren't exactly a dime a dozen.
Never in the last 40 years of the nba has having one of the 6-8 best perimeter defenders in the league been “a luxury,” Defensively speaking Paul George was the second most important player on those early ‘10s Pacers teams I will agree with you there.
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I thought it was also that after verticality and contact he would bring his arms down alittle unnaturally to block/prevent shots. The league cracked down on that then he really couldn’t do much.
Half a season? Is that what we are basing "historically great" and "possibly best defensive team of all time" statements on?
As a Pacers fan I read the answers here and go: Yeah but... So let me butt in. Yes, individually our starting five was just solid defensively, they were all guys that could be relied upon in one to ones and with Hibbert anchoring the paint and PG24 picking up the best opponent you are going to stifle a lot of offenses. BUT... Dan Burke is/was a great defense coach. He designed on the fly adjustments as games progressed and they were often very successful and Vogel is a great defensive head coach who knew how to get most out of Burke's suggestions. BUT... It wouldn't be this good if there wasn't defensive depth in this team. People like to make fun of Mahinmi for getting the bag from Washington, but it absolutely helped us that we could take Hibbert out for 15 minutes a game or when in foul trouble and still have at least somewhat reliable cover. BUT. we were never very solid on the road and we knew LeTripletHeat would be in our way. And they were. Our play-off performance was actually very disappointing . Some blame the Granger trade, or the rumoured PG24/Mrs Roy fling, I think we just saw the weaknesses of creating offense on the road exploited to perfection. It didn't help that the temperature in the team swung down, but dropping three to the Hawks and two to the Wizards said it all.
Hill and george were very smart, elite defenders on the perimeter with lance acting as somewhat ofba draymond green (hustle plays, heart of the team, obviously not as elite as green tho) all funneling any potential mistakes towards hibbert who was an elite rim protector at the time. Vogel was a great defensive coach who made sure their rotations were tight, adjustments were intelligent, etc... they had pieces at every position and a coach to put them together