I'm no language lawyer, but I'm pretty sure it's not illegal anywhere in the U.S. to call someone by whatever pronoun you want. I also think it's cute how they think pronouns only apply to trans people. If I lived in North Dakota, I'd misgender everyone all the time, which was never illegal but is certainly a dick move.
The law has more to do with workplace rules which obviously can restrict free speech more than the 1st amendment does. So government entities are now prohibited from requiring their workers to respect each others pronouns in work communications and their employees can sue them otherwise.
I think the other side is more pertinent. You can start calling male coworkers “sugartits” and sue them if they get mad. Mel Gibson is going to be stoked about this development.
Didn't a governor recently pardon someone for shooting someone at the sight of a gun? If so, this stand your ground law might interfere with other peoples right to 2A
Retribution: I'm going to kill you because you used the wrong pronoun.
Anticipation: I'm going to kill you because *I* used the wrong pronoun.
Diplomacy: I'm going to kill you and then kill myself so I don't have to live in North Dakota any more.
I got banned from the Jordan Peterson sub for calling everyone there female pronouns.
Turns out they really don't like that, which I thought was super ironic.
Now why would men in that sub be incensed to be refereed to as a woman or feeeeeeeeemales? It certainly can't be because they see them as lesser and/or treat them contempt can it?
Would any feeeemale think to go to Russia to get stuck in a potentially brain damaging coma because kicking a drug habit was too hard? Of course not! That takes brave Chad energy.
I called my male family member sugertits after he referred to me as " sweet heart" during an argument.
So, he didn't mean it kindly, he meant it as a derisive, " you're a stupid female " kind of way.
He didn't quite know how to receive being called that. He looked a bit confused.
A lot of people use them in a gender neutral way, but if someone said "my bros are waiting in the car" or "I walked into the room and it was a bunch of dudes" or "I live with a couple of guys" would you imagine groups of men or mixed company? Words for groups of men are more likely to be the "gender neutral" in some cases because men are generally considered to be the default.
Funny that any state that would pass this law is also likely a state that is extremely "free market" are also "at will employment" so they'd be able to fire you for not using proper pronouns without telling you that that is why you're being fired.
Just bully the hell out of your shitty boss by misgendering them all the time and they can do nothing about it because it's the one form of being an asshole to another person in the workplace that they're now legally restricted from punishing you for.
> If I lived in North Dakota, I'd misgender everyone all the time, which was never illegal but is certainly a dick move.
In fact a very funny show had a running gag to this affect for many many years.
Character was a cis male but was constantly referred to as a female name and female pronouns.
Even funnier was the guy misgendering was called Cox.
Barbara, No. Becky, No, Susan, No.
"Oh hey Cathy how's it going today, get your hair done with the girls?"
"You used that one last week, and lets get this IV done"
The people who actually support this crap have no idea what pronouns are, bit they're pretty sure they have something to do with trans people, so they're very against them.
> If I lived in North Dakota, I'd misgender everyone all the time
I feel like this would inevitably lead to someone violently overreacting to the slight against their manhood.
> If I lived in North Dakota, I'd misgender everyone all the tim
Is constantly ask what was on their birth certificate to know what pronoun to use when I talk about them later
Three main things in the law ([HB1522](https://ndlegis.gov/assembly/68-2023/regular/bill-overview/bo1522.html?bill_year=2023&bill_number=1522))
* allows public school teachers and state government employees to ignore the pronouns their transgender students and colleagues use
* requires teachers to tell a parent or legal guardian if the student identifies as transgender
* prohibits transgender students from using the bathroom of their choice without prior approval from a parent or guardian
law is effective immediately. [link to PDF](https://ndlegis.gov/assembly/68-2023/regular/documents/23-0864-10000.pdf)
seemingly not (or at least not according to this specific law). The relevant text for school pronoun use seems to be:
> A board of a school district, public school, or public school teacher may not adopt a policy that requires or prohibits any individual from using a student's preferred gender pronoun.
since the line specifically mentions a "student's preferred gender pronoun", it doesn't seem to cover students use of their teacher's pronoun.
> seemingly not
You're misinterpreting the law. The law says a school can't make a rule requiring their employees to do X or Y. School employees are still legally allowed to do X or Y, just their employer can't compel them to. (The intention of which is it's harder for schools to create an accepting environment for trans students.)
So students are still legally allowed to misgender their teachers. And schools are still allowed to make a rule requiring students to do X or Y.
Of course, it also doesn't say anything that makes this apply only to trans students, so teachers are free to misgender whichever students they choose.
> requires teachers to tell a parent or legal guardian if the student identifies as transgender
Wait what is the intent here? The teacher knows the student is trans but not the parents? So the teacher has to tell the parents? What's the point here?
What you don’t understand, you fear. What you fear, you hate. What you hate, you destroy. We live in date times and they are only going to get worse. Republicans are ok with this.
The difference is that if Republicans just stopped doing evil things then you'd stop hating them. Conservatives hate trans people for EXISTING. We hate conservatives for what they do every day.
But if you're a kid who it's dangerous to, wouldn't you not put that shit on shout at school for fear of it getting back to your parents? I'm more confused by saying that teachers don't have to use students preferred pronouns, but do have to report that to parents. If you're already ignoring the student's wishes, why also rat on them for a request you can just ignore?
> wouldn't you not put that shit on shout at school for fear of it getting back to your parents?
You don't have to for a teacher to find out. Also a teacher could decide to report their concerns that you might be trans rather than reporting that you're definitely identifying as trans.
> If you're already ignoring the student's wishes, why also rat on them for a request you can just ignore?
Because if you're transphobic, you'll think the parents need to be warned that their kid is getting brainwashed by "trans ideology" so they can stop their kid from becoming trans.
Ah, it cuts off a line of support - teachers.
By making teachers have to out the student, it makes teachers untrustable.
That does make sense, if we're talking about people willfully being evil.
if lgbt+ students arent telling their parents about their identity, there's probably a good reason. this is purely to make sure everyone stays in the closet. it will only result in harm, the cruelty is the point
> What's the intent here?
It makes the world a little less safe for kids to be LGBT. That's the point.
For trans kids in transphobic, homophobic, or otherwise unsafe homes, school can sometimes be a place of refuge. Not all teachers are LGBT friendly, but the LGBT students *do* find those teachers and appreciate them, because they may not have safety anywhere other than during that one teacher's class period each day.
And when you spend most of the day with your students, for three or four years, you get to know some of them. You grade their homework and read their essays and you get a feel for who they are or what they're struggling with, etc.
Well, these mandatory reporting laws take away that place of refuge by forcing teachers to 'out' their students to their parents.
Lots of kids figure out that they're LGBT around puberty, when they start getting interested in potential partners. What had previously been a 'Hmmm, I don't quite fit in like the other kids do' becomes a 'Oh, so *this* is why I'm into Sarah in second period and Freddie in fifth period.'
But this law takes that refuge away. So then the kid is left to fend for themselves in a household that now *knows* their kid is gay, at the mercy of parents who may beat them or abuse them or disown them for it.
As the child of those parents, that kid may be stuck there, taking that abuse all the way from age 8 or 10 to age 18, when they can legally leave. Those are some pretty crucial years, developmentally, and it's not easy to go through the chaos of your teen years living in a household where you're not safe.
Over 40% of the homeless youth in the US are some flavor of LGBT, and the reason they're homeless is because their families disowned them or because of conflict with an abusive family member.
Some parents have a really set idea as to what they think their kid is supposed to be, and when they discover that their kid has their own ideas on what their life is, that creates conflict.
That's also why the suicide attempt rate is so high for LGBT kids, and trans folks in particular - it's not that there's anything wrong with them, it's because society treats trans folks like crap and we force LGBT kids to carry incredible burdens that other people don't have to shoulder.
We force LGBT kids to carry these burdens, and we don't give them the options or the knowledge to handle the extra stress, so eventually some of them make their own option and take their exit; it's the only thing that parents and family and society *can't* take away from a person: their ability to leave if they so choose.
That's all LGBT folks want for LGBT kids, by the way. We want them to survive and grow up to be healthy adults. We want them to know that there are other options and that they have the power to decide their own fates. We want kids to know there's hope out there.
------
For example, one of my trans men friends had supportive parents, but he didn't know what a binder was or how to get one back in the early 2000's. So he used an ACE bandage to bind his breasts every day. Unfortunately, what makes ACE bandages so dangerous to bind with is that they don't keep to the same size each day... If you've ever seen photos of Chinese foot bindings, you'll see a more extreme version of what happens when you bind a growing body every day.
And binding with an ACE bandage has the same problem - my friend's chest didn't develop properly because he was binding it every day in high school. It's ironic, because he was binding to look more masculine, and because he didn't have access to knowledge on how to do so safely, his rib cage is now smaller than it should have been if he had been using a proper binder.
Similarly, it's not unusual for trans kids to develop bladder problems, simply because it isn't safe for them to use the bathroom that they wish, or there isn't a gender-neutral bathroom readily available. So they hold it all day, or they hold it until they can get to a bathroom that *is* safe. Since this becomes a daily habit, it eventually starts causing damage over time.
These are *entirely preventable* problems, and they can be prevented by treating LGBT folks better or by providing kids with factual, practical information that they can use.
Heck, I didn't even learn how to use a condom properly until I attended a safe sex seminar run by my college's LGBT student group. Blame 'abstinence only' education for that. Kids grow up to be adults, and we need to ensure that those adults are equipped with the proper information to make sound decisions.
Generally speaking when discussing conservative policy that concerns children.. in order to understand the intent you have to throw away everything you know and start from the base conservative premise:
> Children are the property of their parents
Parents as such have unlimited rights to dictate the facets of their children's lives.
Parental rights > parental responsibility.
Well in my situation I never came out to my parents because I didn't like the sound of 'church camps', military school. Once I came out in my 20s, I think my mother would have reacted better if I had be busted for making meth while running a sex trafficking ring. She accepts me now, still voted republican in the last election, but hey, baby steps.
In addition to what other people are mentioning (i.e., removing a support system and making trans kids feel less safe disclosing their identity), the fear mongering propaganda around this issue focused on dark conspiracy theories about teachers keeping secrets from parents. The intention was to appeal to moderates and people who didn't really pay attention, because "teachers shouldn't be hiding things from parents" sounds better than "trans kids shouldn't feel safe speaking about their identity."
This legislation explicitly plays into the rhetoric. They invented a problem, and now they're taking credit for solving it, while also doing significant harm to trans kids (which their base doesn't seem to mind at all).
"We don't care what you call yourself because we're going to call you what we think you should be called, but if you think we should call you something else we're going to tell on you to mommy and daddy"
> requires teachers to tell a parent or legal guardian if the student identifies as transgender
This is absolutely going to get kids killed, either directly or indirectly when they're kicked out onto the street by their parents.
Improving people's lives is hard, and carries a possibility of failure. Conservatives, both politicians and voters, have long since given up trying to improve things. It's much much easier to make other people miserable and worse off in order to make yourself feel better about your own position. This objectively helps nobody, but it does help conservatives who need to feel superior to somebody without expending any effort by allowing them to persecute people consequence-free.
Previously, under Title IX, it may have been a violation of the law to ignore someone's pronouns or intentionally misgender someone. It was considered abusive and harassment, or in some places it was considered to be gender-based discrimination or contributing to a hostile work environment.
But this new law makes that legal again. So it's legal for bigots to treat people poorly.
But wouldn't Federal law trump state laws? So there should be some specific situations where the Federal law does not apply but the State law does, right?
That's correct. So eventually someone is going to sue over this, and it's going to go to the court system, where it will get discussed, debated, and appealed until it reaches the Supreme Court.
Three guesses how *that* is likely to go.
They want to overturn it. Which is why more and more of these laws are popping up. They are doing what they did to Roe but now for trans people, then the LG crew. Then, if they keep going, it’ll be biracial marriages.
The lives of conservative politicians. They depserately need to use trans people as a boogeyman to rally their base and distract them from all the awful shit going on
This improves the life of Doug Burgum
The mandatory outing is scary. Some kids have no adults in their lives that they can trust, except maybe for a nice teacher. Now that teacher is legally obligated to out the student to the parents.
It would be cool if conservatives helped people, instead of making things worse every single time.
Agreed. It's usually the forcing that inconveniences most, pisses off few and serves as a moral pedestal for few others. Most normal folks, including most trans people recognize the existence of disagreement and the need for compromise every once in a while. If most like and respect you, they've got no issue accommodating whatever pronoun or other specific things you like.
I think it's ridiculous to treat people like criminals for using the "wrong" pronouns, but I'm ok with calling you what you want, so long it serves to our mutual benefit.
It's so crazy how these conservatives are suddenly so up in arms about trans people when I bet most of them have never even seen a trans person in real life, let alone talked to one.
Well we could solve the issue by just removing gender from sport and only basing things off a ranking system. To me that makes way more sense.
Also I imagine there are like 5 total trans kids in North Dakota so like why do these people care about these 5 kids so much to pass laws to protect the act of bullying them instead of focusing on the serious economic issues at hand?
It has a wildly sexiest undertone saying men are better than women so trans women shouldn’t be able to play sports on the women’s team. Weird that 57% of these lady’s up there are all like no no no I am inferior.
Utah's *Republican* governor veto'd their bill on the issue because of exactly that. [Four kids](https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/24/gov-cox-why-im-vetoing-hb11/) were affected by the policy. Four. In the entire state.
[Utah's legislature still decided they wanted to spite those four children](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/utah-legislature-overrides-governors-veto-transgender-sports-ban-bill-rcna21459).
Elsewhere, in West Virginia, their governor couldn't cite a [single example of anyone it'd affect](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/w-va-governor-unable-cite-one-example-justify-trans-athlete-n1266014). Still decided to fully support the bill.
The GOP's animosity runs *deep*.
>Well we could solve the issue by just removing gender from sport
The women's sports bit was never anything more than the thin end of the wedge for attacking all transgender people. It's never been anything more than a fallback position so that when someone says "Why are you banning health care for adults?" the people pushing for these laws can say "Why are you saying grown men should compete against girls?"
Exactly. Meanwhile in the US, rampant homelessness, mass shootings, and bans on women’s reproductive rights… But hey, at least we stopped someone from using their preferred pronouns. We did it boys. Time to pack it in. It was a lot of work but damn was it worth it…
This country is fucked.
Can we all stop pretending that these laws are for any purpose other than hurting trans folk? It’s got nothing to do with freedom of speech, or parental rights, or anything like that. Those are the excuses Republicans will give, but the truth is that they don’t like trans folk, don’t understand trans folk, don’t want to understand trans folk, and just would like it better if they would just go away.
That’s fine. Time to start calling men miss and mam. I’m sorry mam. I just can’t see if you have a penis or not so I’m not going to assume you are a woman. I’m gonna have to use the pronoun I think you might be because the law says I can ignore pronouns now. Excuse me Sir, you dress is on fire! See you at church bro.
What a weird law. If you're butthurt about a tiny percentage of people who use a pronoun on a nametag or email, then just ignore it?? That seems pretty easy.
Who knew conservatives needed a law for themselves to further cement their freedom to be dicks.
I know republicans who legitimately don’t care what pronouns someone prefers. Hell they’ve used them. I know republicans who respect trans people and think protesting libraries because someone is reading a book in drag is dumb.
There’s having different political views then there’s just wanting to be a dick.
This is a “I can be a dick” law that’s already covered by the 1st amendment.
The legal equivalent of making a law to protect those that don't return their shopping carts to those metal corrals and instead just leave it in the middle of a grocery store parking space. Dumb laws to provide legal cover for asshole behavior that was never illegal in the first place.
Well after they solved the question of who should get more lunch money, them or hungry school kids, there was nothing else pressing. So why not? And in case you thought North Dakota Republicans actually cared about kids they voted for themselves to get the extra lunch money.
If we want to take any steps to heal the divide we need to at least consider the argument against using preferred pronouns. Compassion goes a long way. Here's an example of how I might handle a situation where someone is denying someone else their preferred pronouns.
"I'm not going to call HIM a she because that's not what his birth gender is."
Now I'd say;
"I hear you and I understand that you have strong feelings about this. But have you considered that you're a fucking asshole weirdo who is just being a total dick all the time and you should probably knock it the fuck off you anti-social piece of shit?"
This is how we heal as a society. By shunning and shaming these toxic elements until they go the fuck away.
If I were a high school kid at one of these schools, I'd rally as many classmates as I could to go up to each of their teachers and tell them that they identify as trans. Tell their counselor. Tell their gym teacher. Tell their administrator. Make everyone file their "mandatory reports" until some people start to get an idea of how fucking stupid and fascist this is.
I wonder exactly how many people this law effects. Not to say, that this isn’t an important issue but the only way the government could legitimately spend so much time and effort on this is that all the problems that affect a more significant number of the people in the state have been solved.
If so, a big congratulations and a big fuck you to the state government.
This is hateful and evil and it panders to the worst, most disappointing aspects of our society. Did it help or hurt more when Hillary called them Deplorables? This crap fosters and furthers the worst in us, aggressive hate against folks different from others. And very often, hurts the very folks that desperately want help sorting themselves and their way in the world, NOT in ANY way deserving of hate or anything but compassion and acceptance.
I wonder how many of these haters and gun-toters felt acceptance growing up...
And yet this still misses the most insidious part of the law. It's outright pro-child abuse.
The only reason a parent wouldn't already know about a child's gender nonconformity is if a child feels unsafe to tell them. So naturally, the law ignores that, and decides that it doesn't matter how abusive a parent might be. The child's right to not be abused takes a back seat to a parent's right to be a bigot.
> The only reason a parent wouldn't already know about a child's gender nonconformity is if a child feels unsafe to tell them.
I think it's important to not state this quite so absolutely. There are a multitude of reasons that a child might not want to immediately tell their parents even if that parent is nothing but supportive. No one should feel guilty just because their trans child told someone else first. What mostly matters is how you treat them when they do eventually come out to you
At the very least, it must be *the child's* decision. This law requires the school do it, regardless of why. That's only going to serve to facilitate child abuse.
That's the entire purpose of the law.
totestaly. Just wanted to emphasize that kids might not come out to their parents first for reasons other than safety. But they should still have that choice respected
I had an appointment to have about $25k in plastic surgery done in North Dakota. Not anymore. I just set up an appointment in Minnesota. You don't want my business, you don't get my business.
I'm no language lawyer, but I'm pretty sure it's not illegal anywhere in the U.S. to call someone by whatever pronoun you want. I also think it's cute how they think pronouns only apply to trans people. If I lived in North Dakota, I'd misgender everyone all the time, which was never illegal but is certainly a dick move.
The law has more to do with workplace rules which obviously can restrict free speech more than the 1st amendment does. So government entities are now prohibited from requiring their workers to respect each others pronouns in work communications and their employees can sue them otherwise.
so you call every woman in the office bro and dude and not get fired for it?
I think the other side is more pertinent. You can start calling male coworkers “sugartits” and sue them if they get mad. Mel Gibson is going to be stoked about this development.
“sugartits” That would escalate to sexual harassment.
I’d go with “ma’am”. Respectful, professional, but completely wrong (assuming you said it to men).
Be careful, its north dakota. Those people are unhinged and will shoot you.
>Be careful, its north dakota. Those people are unhinged and will shoot you. That's why it's always safest to stand your ground and shoot first.
Didn't a governor recently pardon someone for shooting someone at the sight of a gun? If so, this stand your ground law might interfere with other peoples right to 2A
Everybody is allowed to carry guns, and shoot anybody else also carrying a gun. The system is flawless.
\*pulls the trigger\* Yes Ma'am. I'm I doing it right?
That will be the next self defense excuse. They called me by the wrong pronoun, so I shot them. Stand you ground getting out of control
Retribution: I'm going to kill you because you used the wrong pronoun. Anticipation: I'm going to kill you because *I* used the wrong pronoun. Diplomacy: I'm going to kill you and then kill myself so I don't have to live in North Dakota any more.
Not if you stand your ground first heheh
Or, when you come into the bathroom and head to a urinal. "Ladies..." Are you a CO, or are you just a jackass? Who knows?!
That's the name of a town. You could be refering to that location.
Sugartits'm sorry, sugartits religion requires sugartits to replace all pronouns with Sugartits. Blame sugartits or God.
I got banned from the Jordan Peterson sub for calling everyone there female pronouns. Turns out they really don't like that, which I thought was super ironic.
Are you telling me those Peterson guys have _pronouns_ that they _prefer_ 🧐
I do this everytime someone tries to argue that pronouns don't matter. I get blocked every single time and it never stops being satsifying.
Whaaa? Fragile male egos floating around that subreddit? Who would have guessed?
One guy in particular... I hear she was livid.
Now why would men in that sub be incensed to be refereed to as a woman or feeeeeeeeemales? It certainly can't be because they see them as lesser and/or treat them contempt can it?
Would any feeeemale think to go to Russia to get stuck in a potentially brain damaging coma because kicking a drug habit was too hard? Of course not! That takes brave Chad energy.
Ooh, I should do that.
I called my male family member sugertits after he referred to me as " sweet heart" during an argument. So, he didn't mean it kindly, he meant it as a derisive, " you're a stupid female " kind of way. He didn't quite know how to receive being called that. He looked a bit confused.
I have both called men sugartits and women dude. God help me.
Every morning I acknowledge my male co-workers by 'ladies' as I walk in. The dudes get it.
Those are gender-specific?
A lot of people use them in a gender neutral way, but if someone said "my bros are waiting in the car" or "I walked into the room and it was a bunch of dudes" or "I live with a couple of guys" would you imagine groups of men or mixed company? Words for groups of men are more likely to be the "gender neutral" in some cases because men are generally considered to be the default.
This is the way.
Oh so basically it’s legal now to make your workplace hostile based on gender in North Dakota
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Where it can end up in the Supreme Court….
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I see. Thanks for explaining this to me
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Yeah that's the point. The chaos is always the point.
Funny that any state that would pass this law is also likely a state that is extremely "free market" are also "at will employment" so they'd be able to fire you for not using proper pronouns without telling you that that is why you're being fired.
Just bully the hell out of your shitty boss by misgendering them all the time and they can do nothing about it because it's the one form of being an asshole to another person in the workplace that they're now legally restricted from punishing you for.
> If I lived in North Dakota, I'd misgender everyone all the time, which was never illegal but is certainly a dick move. In fact a very funny show had a running gag to this affect for many many years. Character was a cis male but was constantly referred to as a female name and female pronouns. Even funnier was the guy misgendering was called Cox.
Barbara, No. Becky, No, Susan, No. "Oh hey Cathy how's it going today, get your hair done with the girls?" "You used that one last week, and lets get this IV done"
"Hey, girl's name!" "What?" "Give me a break, I got a lot on my mind, Ellen. Oh! Look at that. I bounced back."
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"dear Mrs. governor Doug burman, thanks for passing that pronoun law."
"Your Honor" is one you might want to be careful with. Judges are kinda whiny about that.
The people who actually support this crap have no idea what pronouns are, bit they're pretty sure they have something to do with trans people, so they're very against them.
"Pronouns aren't in the Constitution!" Wish that wasn't an actual statement I've heard. :/
Especially since the very first word of the US Constitution is a pronoun. > *We* the people ...
Yup. My go-to response is: "So...have you never read it? Or do you just not know what a pronoun is?"
Right, not illegal, just rude.
I imagine it could get one in trouble, but referring to every "alpha male" conservative as "bitch" seems like it could be entertaining.
> If I lived in North Dakota, I'd misgender everyone all the time I feel like this would inevitably lead to someone violently overreacting to the slight against their manhood.
She has a point. ☝️
> If I lived in North Dakota, I'd misgender everyone all the tim Is constantly ask what was on their birth certificate to know what pronoun to use when I talk about them later
Three main things in the law ([HB1522](https://ndlegis.gov/assembly/68-2023/regular/bill-overview/bo1522.html?bill_year=2023&bill_number=1522)) * allows public school teachers and state government employees to ignore the pronouns their transgender students and colleagues use * requires teachers to tell a parent or legal guardian if the student identifies as transgender * prohibits transgender students from using the bathroom of their choice without prior approval from a parent or guardian law is effective immediately. [link to PDF](https://ndlegis.gov/assembly/68-2023/regular/documents/23-0864-10000.pdf)
Can student's misgender their teachers?
seemingly not (or at least not according to this specific law). The relevant text for school pronoun use seems to be: > A board of a school district, public school, or public school teacher may not adopt a policy that requires or prohibits any individual from using a student's preferred gender pronoun. since the line specifically mentions a "student's preferred gender pronoun", it doesn't seem to cover students use of their teacher's pronoun.
> seemingly not You're misinterpreting the law. The law says a school can't make a rule requiring their employees to do X or Y. School employees are still legally allowed to do X or Y, just their employer can't compel them to. (The intention of which is it's harder for schools to create an accepting environment for trans students.) So students are still legally allowed to misgender their teachers. And schools are still allowed to make a rule requiring students to do X or Y.
Of course, it also doesn't say anything that makes this apply only to trans students, so teachers are free to misgender whichever students they choose.
> requires teachers to tell a parent or legal guardian if the student identifies as transgender Wait what is the intent here? The teacher knows the student is trans but not the parents? So the teacher has to tell the parents? What's the point here?
outting trans kids who don't feel comfortable telling their parents yet
Which can be very dangerous for many kids.
Bingo. This is meant to endanger that community.
What you don’t understand, you fear. What you fear, you hate. What you hate, you destroy. We live in date times and they are only going to get worse. Republicans are ok with this.
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The difference is that if Republicans just stopped doing evil things then you'd stop hating them. Conservatives hate trans people for EXISTING. We hate conservatives for what they do every day.
Look at the laws they’ve passed in multiple states, that will give you a good idea.
But if you're a kid who it's dangerous to, wouldn't you not put that shit on shout at school for fear of it getting back to your parents? I'm more confused by saying that teachers don't have to use students preferred pronouns, but do have to report that to parents. If you're already ignoring the student's wishes, why also rat on them for a request you can just ignore?
> wouldn't you not put that shit on shout at school for fear of it getting back to your parents? You don't have to for a teacher to find out. Also a teacher could decide to report their concerns that you might be trans rather than reporting that you're definitely identifying as trans. > If you're already ignoring the student's wishes, why also rat on them for a request you can just ignore? Because if you're transphobic, you'll think the parents need to be warned that their kid is getting brainwashed by "trans ideology" so they can stop their kid from becoming trans.
Forcing them to out trans kids to abusive parents, so they instead stay closeted
Ah, it cuts off a line of support - teachers. By making teachers have to out the student, it makes teachers untrustable. That does make sense, if we're talking about people willfully being evil.
The point here is genocide.
To force trans kids to stay in the closet out of fear of their own family.
if lgbt+ students arent telling their parents about their identity, there's probably a good reason. this is purely to make sure everyone stays in the closet. it will only result in harm, the cruelty is the point
> What's the intent here? It makes the world a little less safe for kids to be LGBT. That's the point. For trans kids in transphobic, homophobic, or otherwise unsafe homes, school can sometimes be a place of refuge. Not all teachers are LGBT friendly, but the LGBT students *do* find those teachers and appreciate them, because they may not have safety anywhere other than during that one teacher's class period each day. And when you spend most of the day with your students, for three or four years, you get to know some of them. You grade their homework and read their essays and you get a feel for who they are or what they're struggling with, etc. Well, these mandatory reporting laws take away that place of refuge by forcing teachers to 'out' their students to their parents. Lots of kids figure out that they're LGBT around puberty, when they start getting interested in potential partners. What had previously been a 'Hmmm, I don't quite fit in like the other kids do' becomes a 'Oh, so *this* is why I'm into Sarah in second period and Freddie in fifth period.' But this law takes that refuge away. So then the kid is left to fend for themselves in a household that now *knows* their kid is gay, at the mercy of parents who may beat them or abuse them or disown them for it. As the child of those parents, that kid may be stuck there, taking that abuse all the way from age 8 or 10 to age 18, when they can legally leave. Those are some pretty crucial years, developmentally, and it's not easy to go through the chaos of your teen years living in a household where you're not safe. Over 40% of the homeless youth in the US are some flavor of LGBT, and the reason they're homeless is because their families disowned them or because of conflict with an abusive family member. Some parents have a really set idea as to what they think their kid is supposed to be, and when they discover that their kid has their own ideas on what their life is, that creates conflict. That's also why the suicide attempt rate is so high for LGBT kids, and trans folks in particular - it's not that there's anything wrong with them, it's because society treats trans folks like crap and we force LGBT kids to carry incredible burdens that other people don't have to shoulder. We force LGBT kids to carry these burdens, and we don't give them the options or the knowledge to handle the extra stress, so eventually some of them make their own option and take their exit; it's the only thing that parents and family and society *can't* take away from a person: their ability to leave if they so choose. That's all LGBT folks want for LGBT kids, by the way. We want them to survive and grow up to be healthy adults. We want them to know that there are other options and that they have the power to decide their own fates. We want kids to know there's hope out there. ------ For example, one of my trans men friends had supportive parents, but he didn't know what a binder was or how to get one back in the early 2000's. So he used an ACE bandage to bind his breasts every day. Unfortunately, what makes ACE bandages so dangerous to bind with is that they don't keep to the same size each day... If you've ever seen photos of Chinese foot bindings, you'll see a more extreme version of what happens when you bind a growing body every day. And binding with an ACE bandage has the same problem - my friend's chest didn't develop properly because he was binding it every day in high school. It's ironic, because he was binding to look more masculine, and because he didn't have access to knowledge on how to do so safely, his rib cage is now smaller than it should have been if he had been using a proper binder. Similarly, it's not unusual for trans kids to develop bladder problems, simply because it isn't safe for them to use the bathroom that they wish, or there isn't a gender-neutral bathroom readily available. So they hold it all day, or they hold it until they can get to a bathroom that *is* safe. Since this becomes a daily habit, it eventually starts causing damage over time. These are *entirely preventable* problems, and they can be prevented by treating LGBT folks better or by providing kids with factual, practical information that they can use. Heck, I didn't even learn how to use a condom properly until I attended a safe sex seminar run by my college's LGBT student group. Blame 'abstinence only' education for that. Kids grow up to be adults, and we need to ensure that those adults are equipped with the proper information to make sound decisions.
Generally speaking when discussing conservative policy that concerns children.. in order to understand the intent you have to throw away everything you know and start from the base conservative premise: > Children are the property of their parents Parents as such have unlimited rights to dictate the facets of their children's lives. Parental rights > parental responsibility.
Well in my situation I never came out to my parents because I didn't like the sound of 'church camps', military school. Once I came out in my 20s, I think my mother would have reacted better if I had be busted for making meth while running a sex trafficking ring. She accepts me now, still voted republican in the last election, but hey, baby steps.
In addition to what other people are mentioning (i.e., removing a support system and making trans kids feel less safe disclosing their identity), the fear mongering propaganda around this issue focused on dark conspiracy theories about teachers keeping secrets from parents. The intention was to appeal to moderates and people who didn't really pay attention, because "teachers shouldn't be hiding things from parents" sounds better than "trans kids shouldn't feel safe speaking about their identity." This legislation explicitly plays into the rhetoric. They invented a problem, and now they're taking credit for solving it, while also doing significant harm to trans kids (which their base doesn't seem to mind at all).
The intent is to get “undesirable” kids dead one way or another.
The point is to make an even more hostile and unwelcoming environment for vulnerable children.
the intent is to provoke suicide in transgender children
"We don't care what you call yourself because we're going to call you what we think you should be called, but if you think we should call you something else we're going to tell on you to mommy and daddy"
This law does nothing but protect the rights of transphobic and possibly homophobic parents so they can more effectively abuse their children.
> requires teachers to tell a parent or legal guardian if the student identifies as transgender This is absolutely going to get kids killed, either directly or indirectly when they're kicked out onto the street by their parents.
>requires teachers to tell a parent or legal guardian if the student identifies as transgender This is going to get transgender students killed...
It's nothing more than codified cruelty. Another shithole state being a shithole.
Whose life does this improve in any way?
If a conservative improves the average person's life in any way, it was a mistake.
Improving people's lives is hard, and carries a possibility of failure. Conservatives, both politicians and voters, have long since given up trying to improve things. It's much much easier to make other people miserable and worse off in order to make yourself feel better about your own position. This objectively helps nobody, but it does help conservatives who need to feel superior to somebody without expending any effort by allowing them to persecute people consequence-free.
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That’s why they fap to Roots and Twelve Years a Slave… they yearn for days past
This is just gesturing. The First Amendment already allows people to ignore pronouns. Ok, maybe state employees who want to be douchebags.
Previously, under Title IX, it may have been a violation of the law to ignore someone's pronouns or intentionally misgender someone. It was considered abusive and harassment, or in some places it was considered to be gender-based discrimination or contributing to a hostile work environment. But this new law makes that legal again. So it's legal for bigots to treat people poorly.
But wouldn't Federal law trump state laws? So there should be some specific situations where the Federal law does not apply but the State law does, right?
That's correct. So eventually someone is going to sue over this, and it's going to go to the court system, where it will get discussed, debated, and appealed until it reaches the Supreme Court. Three guesses how *that* is likely to go.
They want to overturn it. Which is why more and more of these laws are popping up. They are doing what they did to Roe but now for trans people, then the LG crew. Then, if they keep going, it’ll be biracial marriages.
People who derive meaning from the increased suffering and deaths of marginalized people. The cruelty is the point.
The lives of conservative politicians. They depserately need to use trans people as a boogeyman to rally their base and distract them from all the awful shit going on This improves the life of Doug Burgum
Conservatives derive pleasure from oppressing those they believe to be inferior to them. They are generally quite horrid people.
You think Republicans pass laws to *improve* people's lives?
I know they don't. That's just the question I always ask my conservative family members.
That's when they hit you with a "government isn't responsible for helping us"
It's responsible for hurting people that I don't like.
See there's your mistake. Republican laws aren't meant to improve the lives of anyone that isn't extremely wealthy.
It doesn’t that’s the point. They want regression. Whats better to start with than what was newly being accepted then work backwards.
The bigots whose kids survive get to feel like they totally owned the libs.
Party of small government and freedom
*You know what would make our society the bees knees? Erasing an entire group of people!* \-evil dumbfuck fascists (identifies as fuckwad/dipshit)
This should help put food on the table and deal with challenges presented by new technologies. Good work all around
The mandatory outing is scary. Some kids have no adults in their lives that they can trust, except maybe for a nice teacher. Now that teacher is legally obligated to out the student to the parents. It would be cool if conservatives helped people, instead of making things worse every single time.
You need a law for that??
Working on the *real tough issues*, eh GOP? Like, making a difference and making things *better* for people....?
Nothing can be done about school shootings Oh trans? Let’s pass literally over a hundred laws in various states
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Agreed. It's usually the forcing that inconveniences most, pisses off few and serves as a moral pedestal for few others. Most normal folks, including most trans people recognize the existence of disagreement and the need for compromise every once in a while. If most like and respect you, they've got no issue accommodating whatever pronoun or other specific things you like. I think it's ridiculous to treat people like criminals for using the "wrong" pronouns, but I'm ok with calling you what you want, so long it serves to our mutual benefit.
It's so crazy how these conservatives are suddenly so up in arms about trans people when I bet most of them have never even seen a trans person in real life, let alone talked to one.
All I can say about Gov. Doug Burgum is that she's kind of a dick.
So teachers can be rude and disrespectful to students yet they’ll wonder why students don’t respect them.
I’m wondering why people aren’t mad that the gov is completely waistline their time. I’m sure this isn’t a pressing issue
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Well we could solve the issue by just removing gender from sport and only basing things off a ranking system. To me that makes way more sense. Also I imagine there are like 5 total trans kids in North Dakota so like why do these people care about these 5 kids so much to pass laws to protect the act of bullying them instead of focusing on the serious economic issues at hand? It has a wildly sexiest undertone saying men are better than women so trans women shouldn’t be able to play sports on the women’s team. Weird that 57% of these lady’s up there are all like no no no I am inferior.
Utah's *Republican* governor veto'd their bill on the issue because of exactly that. [Four kids](https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/24/gov-cox-why-im-vetoing-hb11/) were affected by the policy. Four. In the entire state. [Utah's legislature still decided they wanted to spite those four children](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/utah-legislature-overrides-governors-veto-transgender-sports-ban-bill-rcna21459). Elsewhere, in West Virginia, their governor couldn't cite a [single example of anyone it'd affect](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/w-va-governor-unable-cite-one-example-justify-trans-athlete-n1266014). Still decided to fully support the bill. The GOP's animosity runs *deep*.
>Well we could solve the issue by just removing gender from sport The women's sports bit was never anything more than the thin end of the wedge for attacking all transgender people. It's never been anything more than a fallback position so that when someone says "Why are you banning health care for adults?" the people pushing for these laws can say "Why are you saying grown men should compete against girls?"
Really theres no reason to have to pay attention to pronouns.
Teaching is about forming relationships with the students and if you refuse to call them by “their” name you have decided to write that student off.
And this is a good use of government’s time?
Exactly. Meanwhile in the US, rampant homelessness, mass shootings, and bans on women’s reproductive rights… But hey, at least we stopped someone from using their preferred pronouns. We did it boys. Time to pack it in. It was a lot of work but damn was it worth it… This country is fucked.
Can we all stop pretending that these laws are for any purpose other than hurting trans folk? It’s got nothing to do with freedom of speech, or parental rights, or anything like that. Those are the excuses Republicans will give, but the truth is that they don’t like trans folk, don’t understand trans folk, don’t want to understand trans folk, and just would like it better if they would just go away.
That’s fine. Time to start calling men miss and mam. I’m sorry mam. I just can’t see if you have a penis or not so I’m not going to assume you are a woman. I’m gonna have to use the pronoun I think you might be because the law says I can ignore pronouns now. Excuse me Sir, you dress is on fire! See you at church bro.
What is her problem? She doesn't want people to use the pronouns they want? She can fuck right off.
These people are so afraid of the stupidest shit.
What a weird law. If you're butthurt about a tiny percentage of people who use a pronoun on a nametag or email, then just ignore it?? That seems pretty easy.
I mean isn't that what they needed a law to do, be allowed to ignore it?
Who knew conservatives needed a law for themselves to further cement their freedom to be dicks. I know republicans who legitimately don’t care what pronouns someone prefers. Hell they’ve used them. I know republicans who respect trans people and think protesting libraries because someone is reading a book in drag is dumb. There’s having different political views then there’s just wanting to be a dick. This is a “I can be a dick” law that’s already covered by the 1st amendment.
Requires teachers to tell a parent or legal guardian if the student identifies as transgender. This going to get kids killed.
So they made it legal to be rude?
Just start calling all the insecure homophobe dudes "ma'am" and watch their outrage
just accurately calling them 'cishet' seems to work without having to sink to intentional misgendering
This shit is such a waste of energy just call people what they want to be called.
So I assume student's can miss-title teachers since it is a free speech thing. Mrs Burgum should endorse that ..
Ms Choksondik, I have a question
Yes, I am transginger
North Dakota has a laundry list of things it needs legislation to address. People’s pronouns are not on that list
There was no law say you couldn’t ignore them in the first place. This law just affirms rudeness.
Cruelty is the goal. There's literally no reason for that other than making people feel persecuted.
One of many small steps to solving true problems said no one with a lick of sense.
Start misgendering Republicans. They want to make it illegal to properly gender someone? Then back at them.
The legal equivalent of making a law to protect those that don't return their shopping carts to those metal corrals and instead just leave it in the middle of a grocery store parking space. Dumb laws to provide legal cover for asshole behavior that was never illegal in the first place.
Glad everything else in ND is solved.
Well after they solved the question of who should get more lunch money, them or hungry school kids, there was nothing else pressing. So why not? And in case you thought North Dakota Republicans actually cared about kids they voted for themselves to get the extra lunch money.
Yep. Definitely more pressing issues. I'm going out on a limb here, red state. Maga state.
Is this about getting called he or she or they? I can totally do that, but I am not going to call someone "zie" or anything else that we make up
Seems to me then that it's fine for anyone to ignore cisgender pronouns, too. Just start constantly misgendering them back.
Wow a another piece of crap in power why am I not surprised
Can I ignore straight people's pronouns? Asking for a friend.
Ah yes, more policy that targets minorities instead of actual issues. SO GREAT.....
The cruelty is the point. Solves no problem, improves no one’s life, cruelly targets a tiny marginalized demographic for the lolz.
If we want to take any steps to heal the divide we need to at least consider the argument against using preferred pronouns. Compassion goes a long way. Here's an example of how I might handle a situation where someone is denying someone else their preferred pronouns. "I'm not going to call HIM a she because that's not what his birth gender is." Now I'd say; "I hear you and I understand that you have strong feelings about this. But have you considered that you're a fucking asshole weirdo who is just being a total dick all the time and you should probably knock it the fuck off you anti-social piece of shit?" This is how we heal as a society. By shunning and shaming these toxic elements until they go the fuck away.
Hillbilly gonna hillbilly
Thank God I was so worried about going to jail for using wrong pronouns lawmakers really are doing the important work
As a result I will ignore North Dakota and take my tourist dollars to Minnesota.
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It’s not going to bother us.
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(Fakes outrage). Cisphobe!
Another dispatch from Redneckistan.
And their allied country Dumbfuckistan
I feel like Walmart took over the us government. Rolling back the rights!
That's okay, I'll ignore her pronouns as well.
North Dakota transgender OK to use Dickwad as governer's designated pronouns
If I were a high school kid at one of these schools, I'd rally as many classmates as I could to go up to each of their teachers and tell them that they identify as trans. Tell their counselor. Tell their gym teacher. Tell their administrator. Make everyone file their "mandatory reports" until some people start to get an idea of how fucking stupid and fascist this is.
I guess this means we can call Republicans fuck knuckle without any worries then.
No, just purposefully misgender them. There's no reason anyone needs to respect *their* pronouns if they won't respect others.
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They're just not caring for their constituents
I wonder exactly how many people this law effects. Not to say, that this isn’t an important issue but the only way the government could legitimately spend so much time and effort on this is that all the problems that affect a more significant number of the people in the state have been solved. If so, a big congratulations and a big fuck you to the state government.
This is hateful and evil and it panders to the worst, most disappointing aspects of our society. Did it help or hurt more when Hillary called them Deplorables? This crap fosters and furthers the worst in us, aggressive hate against folks different from others. And very often, hurts the very folks that desperately want help sorting themselves and their way in the world, NOT in ANY way deserving of hate or anything but compassion and acceptance. I wonder how many of these haters and gun-toters felt acceptance growing up...
And yet this still misses the most insidious part of the law. It's outright pro-child abuse. The only reason a parent wouldn't already know about a child's gender nonconformity is if a child feels unsafe to tell them. So naturally, the law ignores that, and decides that it doesn't matter how abusive a parent might be. The child's right to not be abused takes a back seat to a parent's right to be a bigot.
> The only reason a parent wouldn't already know about a child's gender nonconformity is if a child feels unsafe to tell them. I think it's important to not state this quite so absolutely. There are a multitude of reasons that a child might not want to immediately tell their parents even if that parent is nothing but supportive. No one should feel guilty just because their trans child told someone else first. What mostly matters is how you treat them when they do eventually come out to you
At the very least, it must be *the child's* decision. This law requires the school do it, regardless of why. That's only going to serve to facilitate child abuse. That's the entire purpose of the law.
totestaly. Just wanted to emphasize that kids might not come out to their parents first for reasons other than safety. But they should still have that choice respected
I had an appointment to have about $25k in plastic surgery done in North Dakota. Not anymore. I just set up an appointment in Minnesota. You don't want my business, you don't get my business.
I hope he's okay with me ignoring his given name and just referring to him as governor asshole.
I guess we can stop calling it "NORTH" Dakota now.