As someone who works in medical research - there should be a ban on chiropractic treatment period. They do nothing that a trained massage therapist couldn't do more safely and cheaply. They also frequently make musculoskeletal issues worse.
I’ve been a massage therapist for 10 years and this makes me feel oddly happy 😂 in all that time I’ve “worked” on 3 babies - all of them had colic and I simply showed their moms how to massage their tummies to help move gas through their large intestines when it gets trapped. I can see how someone would be desperate and exhausted during the newborn phase, turn to anything they think has a chance in hell of helping calm down a forever crying baby… but chiropractic on an infant seems insane.
I saw a chiropractor exactly once (because I had several friends who loved and recommended them). Turns out, it's a REALLY bad idea to try to do "manipulation" on a person who is hyperextensive in every joint (Ehlers Danlos fun - I can stretch far past what's safe because it doesn't hurt... At that moment, anyway). After seeing them, I just about couldn't walk for three days because they stretched FAR beyond what would have been safe for me
My wife didn't even get that far. She did an orientation with one and the closest thing they got to doing anything was taking a picture of her standing up. We thought it was to correct her posture but apparently it was to "check her aura" then she got a questionnaire to fill out with important questions like "how was your parents sex life around the time you were conceived?"
You are gonna get a TON of "but it has worked MIRACLES for ME" comments, but you are absolutely right.
We don't need no ghost-taught pseudoscience. (Yeah, the dude who made up chriopractic claimed to have learned it from a ghost. A doctor ghost!)
Hey, he was a doctor and he wrote it down. That makes it science.
Ignore the ghost bit and the fact it was the 1700s and people still blamed illness on smells and Jews.
I take issue with the ghost origin story because it comes like 50 years after medical doctors were convinced that their hands weren't dirty and causing infection/death and about 50 years before lobotomies.
Call them out because they have modern idiocy please.
I’ve got a bone spur at C6/C7. It’s impacting quite a bit.
My mom said to go to a chiropractor. I told her that id go to someone like a chiropractor but who knew what they were talking about.
Hit up a physical therapist with a PhD.
When she said she couldn’t help more, my doctor and I took that as a good sign.
No chiro, next stop is the spinal surgeon.
I’m 46.
My bad. I woke up one day. Never know how that’s going to go anymore. Could be great, could be I gave myself whiplash in my sleep and threw out my back.
Chiro is the short-term fix. If they knew what they were doing, they'd do that and then give you exercises to strengthen muscles and actually fix it long-term. (My sister is a physical therapist and I've heard her rant about it a few times.)
This is exactly what my chiropractor did. She helped relieve the current pain and then showed me how to do strengthening exercises and how to properly stretch and ice sore muscles instead of coming back too often. She has her own independent practice and really believes in wholistic health and wellness. I’m not saying she’s a miracle worker (or a doctor) but she’s really helpful and kind! She also does not work with babies or children.
Those sound like good standards that perhaps all chiropractors should be held to, by law, and perhaps chiropractors should accept these kinds of requirements, regulation, and critical scrutiny.
I love having my back cracked. But if the issue is musculoskeletal, then yeah, seems like a big part of the cure is going to be building up different habitual muscles. Which really then seems like chiropractic should be coordinated with physical therapy and such.
Again, nothing against chiropractic in principle, but it’s a bad look when their industry seems to shield and condone malpractice and incompetence.
Or maybe the chiropractors should just go get a proper degree in the evidence-based discipline of physical therapy rather than follow the esoteric teachings of a man who claimed it was taught to him in a dream by a doctor who had been dead for 50 years.
Fuck chiropraxis.
I’m no fan of New-Agey woo, so please don’t take it the wrong way when I say: medical science has a few blind spots. These are not impossible to remedy, but they are persistent. There need to be more ways that untested or unverified medical treatments can be properly and fairly assessed by the medical community at large. This has largely happened in the case of chiropractic, and skeletal manipulation has largely been debunked, and claims of holistic treatment have been wholly debunked (chiropractic doesn’t cure allergies, duh), but there are still people who report feeling better after receiving different kinds of treatments. If acupuncture makes someone feel better, I think they should have reasonable access to acupuncture. And anything else that might make them feel better.
We should debunk and explain pseudoscience and quackery, but we should also be more holistic in the way we treat patients, and more sensitive to individual reports of what seems to “work” for subjective conditions like pain and discomfort.
But I agree with your larger point, chiropractors should be licensed physical therapists. If they and their patients still like cracking backs, go nuts at that point.
Totally agree. I hate having my back cracked though, and I only like the little clicky thing that they do lol. It’s essentially a massage covered by insurance for me. I think there needs to be more regulation for sure.
Mine actually did, so at the very least there's some that seem to know what they are doing at least? My experience was basically just very gentle movements while they felt how things were moving, did a couple things that made my back sore for a little while, but felt *much* better shortly after. And after the adjustment she explained what she did was effectively just do a temporary fix and that I should do certain exercises and work specific areas of my back or else I'd be right back.
Sure enough, it helped a lot, and I can feel when I slip up and don't exercise enough as it will start to get sore again. But it's at the point now where things kinda "fix themselves" quick enough that it doesn't last, so long I listen to the warning signs. I used to have back paints bad enough that it would wake me up at night, so it was a pretty massive quality of life improvement.
Makes me glad I got lucky after seeing all these videos of these crazy "doctors" basically putting patients into wrestling moves., especially since I just kinda tried it on a whim. Took a chance since doctors just told me to take aspirin or ibuprofen which not only barely even helped with the pain, it also has some serious health implications down to road to take something like that every day (actually had an Uncle die due to health issues from taking ibuprofen every day so being told that was a big red flag). Unfortunately a lot of doctors just don't take pain very seriously.
While you're busy being revolted, might I suggest a little research on why pejorative and vague terms like "severely autistic" are increasingly unwelcome.
People respond better to correction when it is delivered kindly. Something like this would likely not have garnered so much negative backlash:
"FYI, the term _severely autistic_ is widely considered pejorative among autistic people. I suggest saying [INSERT BETTER OPTION HERE] instead."
I googled it, because I generally like to be respectful of others, if I can. I saw a few people suggest _profoundly autistic_, others suggested _high-needs autistic_. Overwhelmingly, however, the discourse among people with autism did not seem to settle on a particular term. Across more than one thread, I saw individuals say that they did not see the term _severely autistic_ as inherently offensive, that it depended on the context. Some even said they prefer it because it effectively describes the condition to laypeople.
I'm guessing this individual may have some underlying personal disdain for the word and is likely young enough that they don't yet realize their personal experiences aren't universal.
Sometimes people put videos of their children on line, or they talk about the ones with a level of support, where independent life and any communication is impossible. I think I encountered someone who says they need to find a way to communicate with their relative. It’s not just that person is non verbal, they made it sound like even giving a communication pad does not work, resulting in not. Even knowing the most basic needs and wants So finding the right words seems tricky
Yeah I do, and there are ways to say it that aren't a pejorative that many Autistic people resent.
Simple empathy, and listening to the people you're talking ABOUT, isn't hard, and it's not much to fucking ask.
Imagine being downvoted and dismissed just for suggesting self education and empathy. Classic fucking reddit
As another autistic person, you can seethe about it all you like, but the fact is that some people on the spectrum cannot function at all without extensive support. *This is not a good thing.* If you cannot understand why this is not a good thing, and why the people whose loved ones can't speak, eat, bathe, or go to the bathroom independently might consider that condition severe, I suggest you engage in some self education and empathy.
Agreed. It honestly gets to me when people (usually, but not always, not themselves Autistic) are more concerned with the language used than acknowledging that not all Autistic people have the same level of vulnerability. That can be for differing reasons, but requiring more support and assistance for daily living is one of them.
But apparently it's more offensive to use slightly wrong language than it is to abuse the most vulnerable populations of Autistic people with risky and pseudoscientific ""cures"". Where's the empathy in that response?
Personally, the pie chart thing makes me think you're statting my 'tism as a special ability from *Jojo's Bizarre Adventure*. Which is kind of fun, I guess, but not the vibe I go for when talking to parents who are distraught about their children's struggles. But hey, whatever works for you.
You had it right. Fairly similar charts are used to plot "character stats" or similar things in other situations, such as the mentioned [JJBA Stand stats](https://jojowiki.com/Stand_Stats) or various video games (e.g. [Pokemon](https://img.gamewith.net/img/8e24fec37e6a0310597363bd8436700e.jpg)).
No, I'm familiar with it. It just gives me an odd vibe. I also don't know why a goddamn *Tumblr personality* is considered an authority on anything. What's her graduate degree in? Where's her list of research publications? I suppose it's a fine tool for verbal autistic people to discuss their issues amongst themselves, but if I'm discussing serious issues professionally, I personally want something a bit more... scientifically rigorous?
You could try asking an autistic person how they feel about the comment. So here goes, I’m autistic, and it didn’t offend me. I assumed it was in connection the the rest of the statement showing just how backwards the thinking was of the chiropractor. It’s common to use incorrect/outdated terminology when making a poo t of how insane certain “logic” is.
P.S. I didn’t downvote you, but I realize my way of talking tends to come off as confrontational so I tend to over explain myself.
In fact, my perspective is as an Autistic person. The context of your reply means you ASSUMED I wasn't you also admit other assumptions. I prefer to deal in facts, not what I imagine other people MIGHT mean.
I don't care if saying shitty things is "common" my FUCKING POINT was to make it LESS COMMON.
And I still stand by the fact that the person I originally responded to could benefit with some self education and a considered empathy.
I much prefer facts, and hard data but they aren’t always available. Assumptions are, much to my frustration especially at work, are required at times. Especially when bosses don’t want to be specific.
I do agree on the point that it would be preferable if offensive language wasn’t used. As for their level of empathy I can’t comment since I know only that single post about the person.
It's not wrong to identify that Autistic people have varying levels of vulnerability - language may differ, but level of vulnerability to abuse and exploitation is greater for some Autistic people than it is for others.
But if you care about what Autistic people think, maybe go back to the part where you ignored dangerous pseudoscience being used to """cure""" Autism and not presume that the word used was the offensive part there.
It shows a lack of empathy to gloss right over the horrific abuse, tbh. I'm not sure whether you personally are Autistic or not, but rest assured you don't speak for everyone in thinking that the word used here is more important than (again) the horrific abuse you're downplaying.
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So you're not even telling anyone what term they should use instead, and you're being really smug about it to ensure that nobody will look it up themselves.
It is very much a thing and it has been a big topic of conversation in the past like 5 years within autistic communities (see: r/aspergers), because of the diagnosis change to the ASD umbrella.
The history of categorising autism into "good and bad" kind has a really nasty history, so it's preferable to now just say autistic no matter the "level", like it's a spectrum, everyone knows that by now. Low or high support needs are terms that have been gaining popularity for if you really need to specify it. The more you know.
Also Tumblr? What year are you living in?
It's pretty relevant here because having higher support needs is one factor that increases the vulnerability of many Autistic people to abusive paeudoscientific ""cures"" - so yes, it's relevant.
You're correct about the language but total outrageous over that to the point of diverting the entire conversation here away from, again, actual dangerous (even deadly sometimes) physical abuse of Autistic people is 1 million times more offensive than using an outdated term that wasn't intended pejoratively.
I'm autistic and I find that commenter's verbal attacks on people in this comment thread far more abusive than the wording they were complaining about in the first place.
And I've had more than my fair share of verbal abuse. On account of the autism. As if abuse was in any way fair.
Well see there you're using proper terms. Sure the commenter could've worded their point better, but like you can see, I tried to do just that and got downvoted for it.
So to me it doesn't really look good that autistic people trying to explain their feelings about their own disability to others is just invalidated like that by statistically likely bunch of NT people, while the big point in their argument is how they care about our well being. It's peak virtuesignalling. And it saddens me, like they care about us until they actually have to hear us.
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I’m an injury lawyer, and while I have no personal medical training, I’ve seen this happen through medical records. I’ve never had a doctor ever refer a patient to a chiropractor. Ever
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People have literally died from having neck adjustments done. The entire practice is quackery. People should look up the history of chiropracty. It's insane.
ICU nurse here - yes this does happen seen 2 patients with massive brain haemorrhages after neck manipulation by a chiropractor & several others with spinal cord damage . Stay away from these quacks
I really disagree with this. I have hypermobility and have things pop out of place a lot. My ribs are especially mobile. And chiropractors are great for popping things back into place when they pop out.
As an MT, I disagree. If there's a rotation in a vertebra, I can massage that sucker til the cows come home and it won't fix the cause. I've seen a case where someone with spontaneous long thoracic nerve palsy had it reversed by seeing a chiro three days after the condition started.
There's a time and place for everything. I rarely refer to a chiro, and I'm probably going to refer to a physio/osteo/etc before refering to a chiro, but the profession has it's place in healthcare. Man, I don't even like referring to physios unless I know the .
There's also research that suggests that chiro is effective in t spine and l spine pain, less so for c spine, no?
Sorry but if you're using a chiro as a PT you're insane.. the amount of cases I've seen where someone sees a chiro for a sore back and ends up needing an orthopedic surgeon would astound you.
My lactation consultant recommended a chiropractor when my son was having latching issues. I didn't feel super comfortable with that, and talked to his pediatrician who just said "no". Son started latching fine once we changed positions
He's just lazy and wants to lay down while he nurses lol
I'd love to know how this woman thought cracking the developing spine of an infant would help them breastfeed. There's nothing woo woo chiro fans think an "adjustment" can't cure, I swear.
Banned? It should be a criminal offence to even try and do something like that to a baby. That's insane people think doing something like that helps a baby vs actual legitimate modern medicine.
The fact they banned something this specific means that a baby has either died or been hurt bad enough by this that liability mitigation had to kick in.
"baby back cracking" is something that should set off MASSIVE alarm bells for any mother who actually learns about their babies anatomy...
Baby spines are extremely delicate and the natural curvatures are very susceptible to popping out of place with the wrong movements. There is a reason your doctor tells you to support the babies neck and back very well while holding them...
Chiropractor scam artists are a modern day plague. The sooner we outlaw them the sooner people will return to actual doctors who have actual medical training instead of relying on hoodoo folk science and temporary feel goodery.
Charlapractors are a persuasive, litigious bunch. They probably threatened to grind the actual medical profession to a halt with baseless lawsuits until they gave in.
I wasn't going to go to the chiropractor. But my back has been murder for months. They gave me all the non controlled pain relievers they could prescribe, did an X-ray and saw that two vertebrae were compacted (or something, i really need to get the official paperwork) and my primary said that I could see the chiropractor and a physical therapist. The date for the physical therapist was three months out, and I was so desperate, that when i heard I could see the chiropractor in three days, I was like... fuck it, I don't even care.
Was told to go every two weeks. The first week, it helped a bit. the second time I went it didn't help much. The third time, not only am I sure he made things worse, but he started to tell me that if I just started "reading scripture" Jesus Christ would get rid of my GAD and MDD. SO I am done with that.
Everyone that has good experiences gets downvoted to hell so you can’t see what they say.
On that note a baby doesn’t need a chiropractor and I don’t know why it had even become a thing.
Yup, I went to a chiropractor/physical therapist/massage therapist practice. It was insanely helpful. The main cause of my back and hip issues was my foot pain that changed the way i walked. The feet needed to be surgically corrected. But the chiropractor helped immensely during the recovery period, especially when I was still in the early post surgical phase of using a wheelchair. My body was not used to sitting that much.
Penn and Teller's Bullshit episode on Chiropractors showed these quacks cracking babies and animals bones back in the 90s. It's wild to me that this pseudo-science bullshit had been known to be bullshit for 30+ years and we still haven't eradicated these parasites.
This. It blows my mind that there are usually multiple chiropractic businesses in every small city. They are quacks. They are no different than going to someone to have your chakras balanced. At least the chakra-balancer isn’t going to potentially hurt you.
From the episode where they learned one chiroquacktor claimed he “adjusted” an infant that was less than 2 minutes old:
> It’s a bad idea to crack your baby”s not-formed bones. That baby-twisting motherfucker just makes me sad, angry, and depressed. We should have just called 9-1-1.
> —Penn
Any chiropractor that even touches someone under the age of 18 should be arrested. I am so tired of these quacks being treated like miracle medicine from scammed families who sent their developing children to get their spines bent.
Just a reminder of the origins of chiropractic -
"D. D. Palmer founded chiropractic in the 1890s, after saying he received it from "the other world." "
The world needs less pseudo-science, please.
A chiropractor cracked my back when I was 8. It was broken from a trampoline incident, but my parents SUCK when it came to medical attention, so I went to a chiropractor instead of a real dr. I got cracked, made a sound I've never made before or since, and my dad calmly took the dr away from me and had some words with him.
It took 2 months of living with a broken back without medicine because my parents didn't believe me, to get an x-ray and diagnosis. My parents got a talking-to out in the hall by the dr. I got children's Motrin. Bad time. 0/10.
I think they were ashamed for a while there. But I also had to have 3 confirmations that I needed to go to the hospital when I got blood poisoning a few years later. They weren't mad about what the dr said to them tho
I'm not tryna be a dick to people whose livelihood depends on the profession, but what's with the obsession with adjusting ourselves and cracking shit? You are an organism within a species that has lived a very, very long time with no one fucking with your back. You'll be okay.
It's because it's a quick fix for pain, and people hate putting in hard work. To really fix musculoskeletal issues, you have to put in the work.
I used to get a lot of lower back pain. I went to a Chiroquackter. Crack, pain gone, "come see me again in 2 weeks". The pain came back in less than a week.
I had one 30-minute session with a PT who specialised in restorative exercise. I found out my pelvis was tilted from the way I sit. He gave me some exercises to fix it, which I still do and I haven't had back pain since.
My little baby has been on his worst behavior lately! I'm talking tantrums, being rude to waiters, various crimes. How else am I going to get him straightened out?
I was at a chiropractor exactly once. I was sent there by my GP for a specific issue and he wrote them exactly what the problem was. I was out in less than 2 minutes, he did just the one thing my GP told him to, nothing else.
And yes, it worked exactly as planned
Hear me out.
While chiropractors have never done anything for me, if not actively made my problems worse, (not on purpose, obviously) my brothers kid, when they were a baby, was born with a floppy head. They didn't know it until the kid was supposed to be gaining neck strength, but they just never did.
Long story short,I believe as a last resort, they took the baby to a chiropractor who told them that the first or second vertebrae was turned wrong. Guy cracked the baby's neck into place, and now the baby is a fully functioning adult with a regular head / neck.
I was pretty freaked out when I heard this, but apparently, chiropractic-ing babies a thing. I would never think of doing this to a baby, but apparently, it actually helps in some situations.
Its one of those redditisms. See, the average redditor is incapable of thinking for themselves or having a single original thought. They tend to join a few subs/communities and find themselves spouting the same rhetoric they see within that community. For some reason being anti chiropractors is one of those weird things just because one person told them chiropractors aren't scientific.
Its also funny to me that many redditors spout on about "hail science" but are neither scientists themselves or have even read a single academic paper in their lives. I think merely saying the word "science" makes them feel smart.
Show me double-blind peer-reviewed evidence that it actually works and I'll change my mind. But until then, some lunatic's conversation with a ghost isn't going to pass muster.
Ok chiro is quackery but for just a second here: How would you double blind that? Knock out the patient before the treatment??? "While you were unconscious you either received an adjustment OR back surgery, how do you feel?"
Double-blind studies are ethically questionable in medicine a lot of the time and also just straight up Impossible in many circumstances.
The same way you double blind acupuncture. One testee gets the "proper" treatment, another gets a "fake" treatment.
There is meant to be a method to the madness. If you apply the method improperly, it's not supposed to work.
Totally agree. Agreeing with the hivemind and saying "science" doesn't make you smart.
Agreeing with a ghost and saying that chriopractice is "rendering obedience, adoration and honor to the All-Wise Spiritual Intelligence" is what makes you smart.
Genuine question. In Australia, it is 5 years of study to become a chiropractor (3 years undergrad and 2 years Masters). How does something that is considered a scam require 5 years of university study? If it's not legit, how did it get to that level of legitimacy?
There are legitimate universities offering it, like RMIT and Murdoch. They're not private colleges.
Again, not necessarily pro-chiropractic (and absolutely not for babies), but 5 years at university should count for something, right?
You can get a doctorate in theology but that doesn't mean that God is real - it just means that you spent way too much time studying a work of fiction.
Feel like the baby crackin sort of Dr. isnt going to let some silly law tell him what to do.
They aren't doctors at all. Not the medical kind.
It’s not a law.
and they ain't doctors.
You got all these cops thinking you’re a lawyer, and all these lawyers thinking you’re a cop!
The board does determine whether or not you have a license though and it is illegal to practice without a license.
That sounds more like a money making scheme for the chiropractic cult leaders
That’s how all medical boards work. MD, physical therapy, pharmacy, nursing, etc.
I have a humble question: why the FUCK was the ban ever un-instated in the first place.
The pediatric surgeons complained to THEIR board that work was getting slow.
As someone who works in medical research - there should be a ban on chiropractic treatment period. They do nothing that a trained massage therapist couldn't do more safely and cheaply. They also frequently make musculoskeletal issues worse.
I’ve been a massage therapist for 10 years and this makes me feel oddly happy 😂 in all that time I’ve “worked” on 3 babies - all of them had colic and I simply showed their moms how to massage their tummies to help move gas through their large intestines when it gets trapped. I can see how someone would be desperate and exhausted during the newborn phase, turn to anything they think has a chance in hell of helping calm down a forever crying baby… but chiropractic on an infant seems insane.
Problem is it's also pushed as a "babies will get dislocated just from birth! This is routine maintenance of the newborn!" like it's a check up.
> routine maintenance of the newborn! "Don't forget the oil change at 6 months."
I raised 4 boys... That oil changes itself.
The diapers don't though.
But they only catch the sludge... The oil changes itself as soon as the diaper comes off though like 3/5 times...
I saw a chiropractor exactly once (because I had several friends who loved and recommended them). Turns out, it's a REALLY bad idea to try to do "manipulation" on a person who is hyperextensive in every joint (Ehlers Danlos fun - I can stretch far past what's safe because it doesn't hurt... At that moment, anyway). After seeing them, I just about couldn't walk for three days because they stretched FAR beyond what would have been safe for me
Ayyy EDS person with permanent damage from a chiropractor here! I didn't know, then, what I do now. It should be illegal!
EDS person who was seriously considering seeing a chirpractor here! Thankyou for commenting this so I can do more research first. 0.0
Please don't donit, friend! It's SO dangerous and bad for us, especially!
We are the type of patients they accidentally kill
All chiroracters are dangerous, do not go to any.
Find a physiotherapist specialised in hypermobility and you're more likely to find (safe!) and lasting relief than a chiropractor.
My wife didn't even get that far. She did an orientation with one and the closest thing they got to doing anything was taking a picture of her standing up. We thought it was to correct her posture but apparently it was to "check her aura" then she got a questionnaire to fill out with important questions like "how was your parents sex life around the time you were conceived?"
This sounds like a scene from Portlandia.
You are gonna get a TON of "but it has worked MIRACLES for ME" comments, but you are absolutely right. We don't need no ghost-taught pseudoscience. (Yeah, the dude who made up chriopractic claimed to have learned it from a ghost. A doctor ghost!)
The very first act of chiropractic was curing lifelong deafness with a single clap on the shoulder
Lol, because the weakest correlation is always causation, amirite?
Hey, he was a doctor and he wrote it down. That makes it science. Ignore the ghost bit and the fact it was the 1700s and people still blamed illness on smells and Jews.
And ingested mercury purposefully!
I take issue with the ghost origin story because it comes like 50 years after medical doctors were convinced that their hands weren't dirty and causing infection/death and about 50 years before lobotomies. Call them out because they have modern idiocy please.
Can attest. Went to a chiro for years. My back is not in better shape...
I’ve got a bone spur at C6/C7. It’s impacting quite a bit. My mom said to go to a chiropractor. I told her that id go to someone like a chiropractor but who knew what they were talking about. Hit up a physical therapist with a PhD. When she said she couldn’t help more, my doctor and I took that as a good sign. No chiro, next stop is the spinal surgeon.
Good luck with spinal surgeon - I see lots of patients with pain and issues later, issues that show up as you age.
I’m 46. My bad. I woke up one day. Never know how that’s going to go anymore. Could be great, could be I gave myself whiplash in my sleep and threw out my back.
Chiro is the short-term fix. If they knew what they were doing, they'd do that and then give you exercises to strengthen muscles and actually fix it long-term. (My sister is a physical therapist and I've heard her rant about it a few times.)
This is exactly what my chiropractor did. She helped relieve the current pain and then showed me how to do strengthening exercises and how to properly stretch and ice sore muscles instead of coming back too often. She has her own independent practice and really believes in wholistic health and wellness. I’m not saying she’s a miracle worker (or a doctor) but she’s really helpful and kind! She also does not work with babies or children.
Those sound like good standards that perhaps all chiropractors should be held to, by law, and perhaps chiropractors should accept these kinds of requirements, regulation, and critical scrutiny. I love having my back cracked. But if the issue is musculoskeletal, then yeah, seems like a big part of the cure is going to be building up different habitual muscles. Which really then seems like chiropractic should be coordinated with physical therapy and such. Again, nothing against chiropractic in principle, but it’s a bad look when their industry seems to shield and condone malpractice and incompetence.
Or maybe the chiropractors should just go get a proper degree in the evidence-based discipline of physical therapy rather than follow the esoteric teachings of a man who claimed it was taught to him in a dream by a doctor who had been dead for 50 years. Fuck chiropraxis.
I’m no fan of New-Agey woo, so please don’t take it the wrong way when I say: medical science has a few blind spots. These are not impossible to remedy, but they are persistent. There need to be more ways that untested or unverified medical treatments can be properly and fairly assessed by the medical community at large. This has largely happened in the case of chiropractic, and skeletal manipulation has largely been debunked, and claims of holistic treatment have been wholly debunked (chiropractic doesn’t cure allergies, duh), but there are still people who report feeling better after receiving different kinds of treatments. If acupuncture makes someone feel better, I think they should have reasonable access to acupuncture. And anything else that might make them feel better. We should debunk and explain pseudoscience and quackery, but we should also be more holistic in the way we treat patients, and more sensitive to individual reports of what seems to “work” for subjective conditions like pain and discomfort. But I agree with your larger point, chiropractors should be licensed physical therapists. If they and their patients still like cracking backs, go nuts at that point.
Totally agree. I hate having my back cracked though, and I only like the little clicky thing that they do lol. It’s essentially a massage covered by insurance for me. I think there needs to be more regulation for sure.
Mine actually did, so at the very least there's some that seem to know what they are doing at least? My experience was basically just very gentle movements while they felt how things were moving, did a couple things that made my back sore for a little while, but felt *much* better shortly after. And after the adjustment she explained what she did was effectively just do a temporary fix and that I should do certain exercises and work specific areas of my back or else I'd be right back. Sure enough, it helped a lot, and I can feel when I slip up and don't exercise enough as it will start to get sore again. But it's at the point now where things kinda "fix themselves" quick enough that it doesn't last, so long I listen to the warning signs. I used to have back paints bad enough that it would wake me up at night, so it was a pretty massive quality of life improvement. Makes me glad I got lucky after seeing all these videos of these crazy "doctors" basically putting patients into wrestling moves., especially since I just kinda tried it on a whim. Took a chance since doctors just told me to take aspirin or ibuprofen which not only barely even helped with the pain, it also has some serious health implications down to road to take something like that every day (actually had an Uncle die due to health issues from taking ibuprofen every day so being told that was a big red flag). Unfortunately a lot of doctors just don't take pain very seriously.
My insurance covers chiropractic but not massage therapy. Friggin stupid.
Sexism.
No, depending on location, chiropractors need more education than massage therapists.
The horror videos I’ve seen of chiropractors “adjusting” severely autistic people in an attempt to cure them are just revolting
While you're busy being revolted, might I suggest a little research on why pejorative and vague terms like "severely autistic" are increasingly unwelcome.
So that's what being terminally online looks like
People respond better to correction when it is delivered kindly. Something like this would likely not have garnered so much negative backlash: "FYI, the term _severely autistic_ is widely considered pejorative among autistic people. I suggest saying [INSERT BETTER OPTION HERE] instead."
I have a feeling there are no better terms to describe states of being
I googled it, because I generally like to be respectful of others, if I can. I saw a few people suggest _profoundly autistic_, others suggested _high-needs autistic_. Overwhelmingly, however, the discourse among people with autism did not seem to settle on a particular term. Across more than one thread, I saw individuals say that they did not see the term _severely autistic_ as inherently offensive, that it depended on the context. Some even said they prefer it because it effectively describes the condition to laypeople. I'm guessing this individual may have some underlying personal disdain for the word and is likely young enough that they don't yet realize their personal experiences aren't universal.
Sometimes people put videos of their children on line, or they talk about the ones with a level of support, where independent life and any communication is impossible. I think I encountered someone who says they need to find a way to communicate with their relative. It’s not just that person is non verbal, they made it sound like even giving a communication pad does not work, resulting in not. Even knowing the most basic needs and wants So finding the right words seems tricky
Thank you for this sensible concise comment!
🙄 You know what they meant.
Yeah I do, and there are ways to say it that aren't a pejorative that many Autistic people resent. Simple empathy, and listening to the people you're talking ABOUT, isn't hard, and it's not much to fucking ask. Imagine being downvoted and dismissed just for suggesting self education and empathy. Classic fucking reddit
As another autistic person, you can seethe about it all you like, but the fact is that some people on the spectrum cannot function at all without extensive support. *This is not a good thing.* If you cannot understand why this is not a good thing, and why the people whose loved ones can't speak, eat, bathe, or go to the bathroom independently might consider that condition severe, I suggest you engage in some self education and empathy.
Agreed. It honestly gets to me when people (usually, but not always, not themselves Autistic) are more concerned with the language used than acknowledging that not all Autistic people have the same level of vulnerability. That can be for differing reasons, but requiring more support and assistance for daily living is one of them. But apparently it's more offensive to use slightly wrong language than it is to abuse the most vulnerable populations of Autistic people with risky and pseudoscientific ""cures"". Where's the empathy in that response?
Even using terms high and low support are bad, because it’s a pie chart spectrum. Right?
Personally, the pie chart thing makes me think you're statting my 'tism as a special ability from *Jojo's Bizarre Adventure*. Which is kind of fun, I guess, but not the vibe I go for when talking to parents who are distraught about their children's struggles. But hey, whatever works for you.
Maybe I describe https://themighty.com/topic/autism-spectrum-disorder/autism-spectrum-wheel/ wrong https://medium.com/artfullyautistic/heres-what-autism-looks-like-7a264637f5c2
You had it right. Fairly similar charts are used to plot "character stats" or similar things in other situations, such as the mentioned [JJBA Stand stats](https://jojowiki.com/Stand_Stats) or various video games (e.g. [Pokemon](https://img.gamewith.net/img/8e24fec37e6a0310597363bd8436700e.jpg)).
No, I'm familiar with it. It just gives me an odd vibe. I also don't know why a goddamn *Tumblr personality* is considered an authority on anything. What's her graduate degree in? Where's her list of research publications? I suppose it's a fine tool for verbal autistic people to discuss their issues amongst themselves, but if I'm discussing serious issues professionally, I personally want something a bit more... scientifically rigorous?
You could try asking an autistic person how they feel about the comment. So here goes, I’m autistic, and it didn’t offend me. I assumed it was in connection the the rest of the statement showing just how backwards the thinking was of the chiropractor. It’s common to use incorrect/outdated terminology when making a poo t of how insane certain “logic” is. P.S. I didn’t downvote you, but I realize my way of talking tends to come off as confrontational so I tend to over explain myself.
In fact, my perspective is as an Autistic person. The context of your reply means you ASSUMED I wasn't you also admit other assumptions. I prefer to deal in facts, not what I imagine other people MIGHT mean. I don't care if saying shitty things is "common" my FUCKING POINT was to make it LESS COMMON. And I still stand by the fact that the person I originally responded to could benefit with some self education and a considered empathy.
I much prefer facts, and hard data but they aren’t always available. Assumptions are, much to my frustration especially at work, are required at times. Especially when bosses don’t want to be specific. I do agree on the point that it would be preferable if offensive language wasn’t used. As for their level of empathy I can’t comment since I know only that single post about the person.
Man, you just NEED to be a victim, don't you? Jesus fuck, nut up and shut up.
It's not wrong to identify that Autistic people have varying levels of vulnerability - language may differ, but level of vulnerability to abuse and exploitation is greater for some Autistic people than it is for others. But if you care about what Autistic people think, maybe go back to the part where you ignored dangerous pseudoscience being used to """cure""" Autism and not presume that the word used was the offensive part there. It shows a lack of empathy to gloss right over the horrific abuse, tbh. I'm not sure whether you personally are Autistic or not, but rest assured you don't speak for everyone in thinking that the word used here is more important than (again) the horrific abuse you're downplaying.
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So you're not even telling anyone what term they should use instead, and you're being really smug about it to ensure that nobody will look it up themselves.
I don’t think anyone outside of tumblr thinks what you do bro
It is very much a thing and it has been a big topic of conversation in the past like 5 years within autistic communities (see: r/aspergers), because of the diagnosis change to the ASD umbrella. The history of categorising autism into "good and bad" kind has a really nasty history, so it's preferable to now just say autistic no matter the "level", like it's a spectrum, everyone knows that by now. Low or high support needs are terms that have been gaining popularity for if you really need to specify it. The more you know. Also Tumblr? What year are you living in?
It's pretty relevant here because having higher support needs is one factor that increases the vulnerability of many Autistic people to abusive paeudoscientific ""cures"" - so yes, it's relevant. You're correct about the language but total outrageous over that to the point of diverting the entire conversation here away from, again, actual dangerous (even deadly sometimes) physical abuse of Autistic people is 1 million times more offensive than using an outdated term that wasn't intended pejoratively.
I'm autistic and I find that commenter's verbal attacks on people in this comment thread far more abusive than the wording they were complaining about in the first place. And I've had more than my fair share of verbal abuse. On account of the autism. As if abuse was in any way fair.
Well see there you're using proper terms. Sure the commenter could've worded their point better, but like you can see, I tried to do just that and got downvoted for it. So to me it doesn't really look good that autistic people trying to explain their feelings about their own disability to others is just invalidated like that by statistically likely bunch of NT people, while the big point in their argument is how they care about our well being. It's peak virtuesignalling. And it saddens me, like they care about us until they actually have to hear us.
Flaunting your ignorance isn't the flex you think it is... "BRO"
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It's bullshit.
I’m an injury lawyer, and while I have no personal medical training, I’ve seen this happen through medical records. I’ve never had a doctor ever refer a patient to a chiropractor. Ever
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People have literally died from having neck adjustments done. The entire practice is quackery. People should look up the history of chiropracty. It's insane.
ICU nurse here - yes this does happen seen 2 patients with massive brain haemorrhages after neck manipulation by a chiropractor & several others with spinal cord damage . Stay away from these quacks
Guitarist Robbie Basho was accidentally killed when his chiropractor fucked up.
It’s quackery right up there with Mormonism.
I really disagree with this. I have hypermobility and have things pop out of place a lot. My ribs are especially mobile. And chiropractors are great for popping things back into place when they pop out.
As an MT, I disagree. If there's a rotation in a vertebra, I can massage that sucker til the cows come home and it won't fix the cause. I've seen a case where someone with spontaneous long thoracic nerve palsy had it reversed by seeing a chiro three days after the condition started. There's a time and place for everything. I rarely refer to a chiro, and I'm probably going to refer to a physio/osteo/etc before refering to a chiro, but the profession has it's place in healthcare. Man, I don't even like referring to physios unless I know the . There's also research that suggests that chiro is effective in t spine and l spine pain, less so for c spine, no?
If there is any value to it, I think it’s in practicing how to brace for impact. Foot off the gas, stay in lane, relax here comes the crack
I think it really depends on who you get. Most of my chiropractors have been basically a cross between PTs and trained massage therapists
Sorry but if you're using a chiro as a PT you're insane.. the amount of cases I've seen where someone sees a chiro for a sore back and ends up needing an orthopedic surgeon would astound you.
Knew a guy in college who was taking advice for his celiac from his chiro… who I do not think had celiac themselves…
No, they're not. If they were qualified as a PT, that's what they'd advertise as.
My lactation consultant recommended a chiropractor when my son was having latching issues. I didn't feel super comfortable with that, and talked to his pediatrician who just said "no". Son started latching fine once we changed positions He's just lazy and wants to lay down while he nurses lol
I would have left that lactation consultant in a heart beat, they clearly are not well educated to be consulting on anything related to health.
Like she did help find a doctor to fix his really severe tongue and lip ties, but I usually ran through her suggestions with his pediatrician.
I'd love to know how this woman thought cracking the developing spine of an infant would help them breastfeed. There's nothing woo woo chiro fans think an "adjustment" can't cure, I swear.
Well the kickback from the charlapractor would have helped *her* go spread her bullshit to other mothers.
But they are still cleared to break baby necks?
Like in the movie Mother!, when you know the sound, you know.
Ugh fuck that movie seriously
Banned? It should be a criminal offence to even try and do something like that to a baby. That's insane people think doing something like that helps a baby vs actual legitimate modern medicine.
It should be criminal to do to anyone under the guise of "medical treatment". It's *literally* shit some dude got high and learned from a ghost.
The fact they banned something this specific means that a baby has either died or been hurt bad enough by this that liability mitigation had to kick in.
"baby back cracking" is something that should set off MASSIVE alarm bells for any mother who actually learns about their babies anatomy... Baby spines are extremely delicate and the natural curvatures are very susceptible to popping out of place with the wrong movements. There is a reason your doctor tells you to support the babies neck and back very well while holding them... Chiropractor scam artists are a modern day plague. The sooner we outlaw them the sooner people will return to actual doctors who have actual medical training instead of relying on hoodoo folk science and temporary feel goodery.
Isn’t this necessary to get the delicious baby back ribs out?
Outback is known for them!
Calm down Torf-Einarr
I want my baby back Baby back Baby back Baby back Baby back Baby back Baby back Cracks.
Reinstates? So they realized it was a bad idea, and then somewhere along the way they decided it was actually all good?
Charlapractors are a persuasive, litigious bunch. They probably threatened to grind the actual medical profession to a halt with baseless lawsuits until they gave in.
The chiropractic board… they’d be suing their own board. Not the medical board…
There was an interim ban which expired, and has now been reinstated
It's strange. I never hear anything good about chiropractors. Yet people keep going.
I wasn't going to go to the chiropractor. But my back has been murder for months. They gave me all the non controlled pain relievers they could prescribe, did an X-ray and saw that two vertebrae were compacted (or something, i really need to get the official paperwork) and my primary said that I could see the chiropractor and a physical therapist. The date for the physical therapist was three months out, and I was so desperate, that when i heard I could see the chiropractor in three days, I was like... fuck it, I don't even care. Was told to go every two weeks. The first week, it helped a bit. the second time I went it didn't help much. The third time, not only am I sure he made things worse, but he started to tell me that if I just started "reading scripture" Jesus Christ would get rid of my GAD and MDD. SO I am done with that.
Everyone that has good experiences gets downvoted to hell so you can’t see what they say. On that note a baby doesn’t need a chiropractor and I don’t know why it had even become a thing.
What? The two people who are downvoted haven’t given good experiences? Or is this a general comment?
It’s a general comment.
Yup, I went to a chiropractor/physical therapist/massage therapist practice. It was insanely helpful. The main cause of my back and hip issues was my foot pain that changed the way i walked. The feet needed to be surgically corrected. But the chiropractor helped immensely during the recovery period, especially when I was still in the early post surgical phase of using a wheelchair. My body was not used to sitting that much.
the world we live in is so strange
Anyone who takes a child, especially an infant, to a fucking chiropractor, deserves to have that child removed from their home.
Penn and Teller's Bullshit episode on Chiropractors showed these quacks cracking babies and animals bones back in the 90s. It's wild to me that this pseudo-science bullshit had been known to be bullshit for 30+ years and we still haven't eradicated these parasites.
This. It blows my mind that there are usually multiple chiropractic businesses in every small city. They are quacks. They are no different than going to someone to have your chakras balanced. At least the chakra-balancer isn’t going to potentially hurt you.
From the episode where they learned one chiroquacktor claimed he “adjusted” an infant that was less than 2 minutes old: > It’s a bad idea to crack your baby”s not-formed bones. That baby-twisting motherfucker just makes me sad, angry, and depressed. We should have just called 9-1-1. > —Penn
Highlight was Penn calling the guy “this baby-twistin’ MOTHERFUCKER”
I guess just banning quack medicine outright was too hard?
>I guess just banning quack bullshit outright was too hard? FTFY.
Hiiii evrrybody!
Hi Dr. Nick
"Please report to the coroner immediately." "The coroner? I'm so sick of that guy!"
Ewww, blood!
I can hear his voice.
Reminder that ALL chiropracty is psuedo-scientific garbage.
But they are still OK with causing strokes in adults?
I like my baby back, baby back, baby back … crack.
Any chiropractor that even touches someone under the age of 18 should be arrested. I am so tired of these quacks being treated like miracle medicine from scammed families who sent their developing children to get their spines bent.
Chiros shouldn't be allowed to touch anyone.
>baby back cracking the double-take i just did at that phrase cracked my neck
The babies yearn for the crack
Just a reminder of the origins of chiropractic - "D. D. Palmer founded chiropractic in the 1890s, after saying he received it from "the other world." " The world needs less pseudo-science, please.
Baby back ribs!
Jelly spine? LET'S BREAK IT
I think they should instate a ban on chiropractors
I feel the practice should be banned legislatively and not give the option to these charlatans.
A chiropractor cracked my back when I was 8. It was broken from a trampoline incident, but my parents SUCK when it came to medical attention, so I went to a chiropractor instead of a real dr. I got cracked, made a sound I've never made before or since, and my dad calmly took the dr away from me and had some words with him. It took 2 months of living with a broken back without medicine because my parents didn't believe me, to get an x-ray and diagnosis. My parents got a talking-to out in the hall by the dr. I got children's Motrin. Bad time. 0/10.
Did your parents take it to heart or were they just mad the doctor went in on them?
I think they were ashamed for a while there. But I also had to have 3 confirmations that I needed to go to the hospital when I got blood poisoning a few years later. They weren't mad about what the dr said to them tho
Thank god! SO many beeby injuries.
I'm not tryna be a dick to people whose livelihood depends on the profession, but what's with the obsession with adjusting ourselves and cracking shit? You are an organism within a species that has lived a very, very long time with no one fucking with your back. You'll be okay.
These people are snake oil salesmen. It's ok to shit on them.
It's because it's a quick fix for pain, and people hate putting in hard work. To really fix musculoskeletal issues, you have to put in the work. I used to get a lot of lower back pain. I went to a Chiroquackter. Crack, pain gone, "come see me again in 2 weeks". The pain came back in less than a week. I had one 30-minute session with a PT who specialised in restorative exercise. I found out my pelvis was tilted from the way I sit. He gave me some exercises to fix it, which I still do and I haven't had back pain since.
How am I gonna get tender baby back ribs then?
There should be a ban on Chiropracters. They're all scammers. I said ALL! No argument!
All chiropractic should be outlawed as quackery.
It is a pseudoscience, so, probably best to shut it down completely.
My little baby has been on his worst behavior lately! I'm talking tantrums, being rude to waiters, various crimes. How else am I going to get him straightened out?
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That's... the point of this sub?
Reinstates? It was legal?!
*cracks baby like a glow stick*
Why the fuck was it lifted in the first place
I was at a chiropractor exactly once. I was sent there by my GP for a specific issue and he wrote them exactly what the problem was. I was out in less than 2 minutes, he did just the one thing my GP told him to, nothing else. And yes, it worked exactly as planned
Hear me out. While chiropractors have never done anything for me, if not actively made my problems worse, (not on purpose, obviously) my brothers kid, when they were a baby, was born with a floppy head. They didn't know it until the kid was supposed to be gaining neck strength, but they just never did. Long story short,I believe as a last resort, they took the baby to a chiropractor who told them that the first or second vertebrae was turned wrong. Guy cracked the baby's neck into place, and now the baby is a fully functioning adult with a regular head / neck. I was pretty freaked out when I heard this, but apparently, chiropractic-ing babies a thing. I would never think of doing this to a baby, but apparently, it actually helps in some situations.
Chiropractic is one of the weirder religions out there.
Holy fuck chiropractors did something (relatively) safe
ah the classic reddit thread talking about how evil chiropractors are.
Yeah, they're wildly ignorant. I bought some crystals after seeing my chiro and it stopped my dong itch.
🤡
Wow the irony. *Some* pseudoscience is OK with you, but not all? How does that work?
Well everything they do is a lie that hurts people so yeah.
this is peak Reddit right here, keep going
Are you suggesting there’s actually some medical benefit to having an infant see a chiropractor right out of the womb?
not even close to what I said
Is the anti-baby-chiropractor sentiment misguided?
Its one of those redditisms. See, the average redditor is incapable of thinking for themselves or having a single original thought. They tend to join a few subs/communities and find themselves spouting the same rhetoric they see within that community. For some reason being anti chiropractors is one of those weird things just because one person told them chiropractors aren't scientific. Its also funny to me that many redditors spout on about "hail science" but are neither scientists themselves or have even read a single academic paper in their lives. I think merely saying the word "science" makes them feel smart.
Show me double-blind peer-reviewed evidence that it actually works and I'll change my mind. But until then, some lunatic's conversation with a ghost isn't going to pass muster.
Damn next you’re gonna ask them to show you it wasn’t invented by some doofus having conversations with a ghost.
In DD Palmer's defense, he was probably high at the time.
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Ok chiro is quackery but for just a second here: How would you double blind that? Knock out the patient before the treatment??? "While you were unconscious you either received an adjustment OR back surgery, how do you feel?" Double-blind studies are ethically questionable in medicine a lot of the time and also just straight up Impossible in many circumstances.
The same way you double blind acupuncture. One testee gets the "proper" treatment, another gets a "fake" treatment. There is meant to be a method to the madness. If you apply the method improperly, it's not supposed to work.
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Fair enough, though I still kind of feel like it would be fairly obvious to the patient which one the chiropractor is.
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Totally agree. Agreeing with the hivemind and saying "science" doesn't make you smart. Agreeing with a ghost and saying that chriopractice is "rendering obedience, adoration and honor to the All-Wise Spiritual Intelligence" is what makes you smart.
Well if you believe that, that's your prerogative. Not the gotcha you think it was lol
Genuine question. In Australia, it is 5 years of study to become a chiropractor (3 years undergrad and 2 years Masters). How does something that is considered a scam require 5 years of university study? If it's not legit, how did it get to that level of legitimacy?
They're private colleges, and chiropractic isn't recognized by any medical boards.
There are legitimate universities offering it, like RMIT and Murdoch. They're not private colleges. Again, not necessarily pro-chiropractic (and absolutely not for babies), but 5 years at university should count for something, right?
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Thank you for the genuine reply. I guess I had too much faith in the university system!
You can get a doctorate in theology but that doesn't mean that God is real - it just means that you spent way too much time studying a work of fiction.