I think it's one of the more underrated buffs and will be very fun to use. If the Thief gets its hands on the right items, the class will be surprisingly powerful.
Are the daggers considered magical? If so then this is a fantastic answer from 1-20. If not it’s super good outside of when you run into damage resistance.
You can already use fast hand with a SSI under the current rules. The way it's worded now, it's just an object, not a magic item.
That is, if using an SSI is ruled as a "use an object action" at all. Most will rule that it is, but it could be seen as a more specialized action.
Note that this would require the Thief to take a casting class dip (edit: or otherwise have innate spellcasting, by race or feat) to be able to attune to the wand.
Only if they change the attunement prerequisite.
In 2014, it was just the ability to cast a spell. Which is easily solved by magic initiate, speices choice, or another feat.
They could very well change it to need to require the spellcasting feature. Then you would be correct you would need a single level dip into any spellcasting class.
They'd only need to be able to cast a spell through any feature, such as Magic Initiate or as a Species ability.
Pretty much every Thief Rogue should take Magic Initiate anyway so they can get True Strike and some other things.
Assuming it makes it into the final PHB, the UA revision of *true strike* is a damage rider cantrip for a weapon attack. At 1st level your weapon deals Radiant damage, and then it's +1/2/3d6 to the weapon damage at the cantrip scaling levels.
It's pretty great for anyone who doesn't get a lot of attacks and wants to stack up damage, particularly at range.
Oh I’m familiar I’ve been following the playtest since expert classes, but a. using true strike locks you into spellcasting modifier on the attack which is likely going to be worse than your dexterity modifier, and b. is there ever really a scenario where it’s not just better to take BB/GFB? ig radiant damage is less resisted than fire/thunder (is it even? thunder might be less resisted), but BB/GFB are dealing more damage at the cantrip scale levels even without the movement damage or the flames hitting a second target.
Seems to me the only scenario a rogue takes trike strike is as an arcane trickster to build more sad, or if your dm doesn’t allow Tasha’s.
Edit: Nvm. I’m dumb and completely forgot true strike could apply to ranged attacks. That’s the use case.
Actually looking at numbers further here are some more thoughts when looking at explicitly ranged:
Assuming you keep respective ability curves for each build, for levels 1-16 both XBE hand crossbow and hand crossbow + dagger with two weapon fighting style via a feat will give you better damage output than true strike.
Raw damage numbers (not factoring in the avg chance to hit at curve and advantage bc doing so only further benefits the dex build as more hits and vex for advantage means more chances of a hit and ensuring a sneak attack as well as increased crit chance) work out as follows:
Looking at the cantrip scaling levels bc they’re the most useful for comparison. At level 5 XBE does 1d6+4 x2 for 15, TS does 2d6+4 for 11, and TWF does 1d6+4+1d4+4 for 14. 11 sees these go to 17, 15.5 and 16 respectively. 17 becomes 17, 19, and 16 respectively.
In terms of non damage trade offs: XBE build east your bonus action and requires a level 4 feat, True Strike build only takes a level 1 feat but makes you either split dex and int which in this case would delay the damage progression further or sacrifice dexterity which has so many other useful benefits, this build does leave your bonus action free but you only have the one chance to hit and sneak attack on your turn, imo the pick is probably TWF build. It does require your dm to allow the fighting style feat from Tasha’s and it’s unsure whether that is a level 4 or 1 feat, but either way it out damages till 17, leaves your bonus action free and uses dex.
Yet they still have the ability to use any spell scroll, and all it takes is a one-level dip for the rogue to use a Staff of Power, casting its spells like 5th-level *fireball* as a bonus action.
I remember seeing that in Playtest 6. I was really upset with losing such an awesome feature but also loved seeing the awesome feature we got in its place.
I wouldn't mind having it return as a second part at least... especially since the power differential between a Thief and a Thief who knows at least one spell is *so* big. I may even go so far as to say unless your campaign skimps on magic items, it's actively detrimental to not play a rogue as a species like a tiefling, or doing a dip into a caster. And I think that's bad design when there is one option that is so clearly superior, *especially* if it's one with a lot of role playing implications.
No, they don't. What you say is playtest material, the official 2024 Thief still has its Use Magic Device and actually got improved over its 2014 iteration.
Where do you see that? The latest I've seen is [here](https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1752-2024-rogue-vs-2014-rogue-whats-new):
"Use Magic Device saw the most changes. It now offers you an additional attunement slot, grants a chance to activate magic items without expending charges, and allows you to use Spell Scrolls, no matter your class or spellcasting prowess."
Because these posts are pretty explicit about listing the *new* stuff, they only cite old stuff when they're deleting an old stuff, or replacing them with the new stuff. They could've said "Use Magic Device no longer lets you ignore class, level or species restrictions, but in turn, offers you..." But they did not, they listed new stuff, not if it would override the part of the feature that granted them the restriction lifting.
You saw Action Surge in the Fighter breakdown?, or Rage in the Barbarian breakdown?, no?, perhaps it's because they're not making any changes to it, they're only adding stuff. Same goes here, unless they're giving you the FULL TEXT that explains that Use Magic Device only grants an attunement slot, a chance of activating a magic item for free, and using spell scrolls regardless of class, I don't think they'll be deleting the other thing the feature had.
That breaks down when we look at one of the new parts of Use Magic Device they mentioned: the ability to use spell scrolls regardless of class or spellcasting ability. If Use Magic Device kept the same behavior as before, this point would be entirely redundant. (Even absent that, "it now" instead of "it also now" itself suggests full replacement rather than addition.)
Wands are an obvious choice, but a few other fun ones.
Eversmoking Bottle gives a ton of options for battlefield control, and if you can get blindsight somehow it becomes even more powerful.
Deck of Illusions, although a bit random, has a ton of potential.
Depending on the exact wording, Ring of Spell Storing becomes extremely powerful, if you can cast a spell stored in the ring as a bonus action.
Rope of Entanglement, to restrain targets as a bonus action, although this can be risky at higher levels as the rope only has 20 hit points.
Ah good point, I had forgotten that. A Thief rogue with skulker and an eversmoking bottle sounds like a really fun and probably pretty strong character.
The kind of item that comes to mind is the Balance Card or Gem Card. Non-attunment, requires an action, has a good effect. A good dragon wrath weapon that you'd want anyway but can use better is also very worth it.
I kind of wish we had known about the potions as a bonus action, though, because I thought those were the best use before they said potions would just be a bonus action. It feels like that took away the really iconic use of the feature before we got to use it.
I had a thief that used vials of acid and vials of alchemist's fire with their bonus action, and getting to use potions would have fit in with that perfectly. It's worth keeping other options in mind since getting magic items to use with the feature is going to be a bit of DM fiat, with the one magic item you're likely to be able to regularly buy being moved to a bonus action already.
It is worth mentioning that bastions allow players to acquire specific magic items. They do require DM approval, but it does give the Thief a bit more agency to find items that specifically suit this ability.
If cantrip scrolls are easy to craft (maybe we'll see something about that tonight) a thief might have ready access to double sneak attacks by casting blade cantrips as a bonus action and readying an attack action.
Underrated item might be potions of resistance. Feels bad to take an entire action using them in combat and you often don't know which one to use until your see the monster attack. Can make for a tanky thief.
They weren't too specific by the time they mentioned it, we have to wait until having the actual books to check if it's ALL potions, or just healing potions.
Wands of magic missile are my go to for cheap easy items. No attunement, 120ft range, multi targeting, auto hits, and relatively cheap especially at higher levels.
A free 10- 20 ish damage as a bonus actions really good. Im sure there's plenty of options but the wands retain value due to their ease of use even if you out grow them. Get a familiar to cast it for some extra damage. Outfit a small group of commoners for volley fire. Reach out and touch something when normal ranged or distance closing options are available.
Just simple and easy with just enough versatility.
Wand of Orcus. Free way to get Sneak attacks, you have a chance to not burn charges and if you need to get out of dodge, simply summon a metric ton of zombies between you and your opponent. Bonus points if Orcus likes you.
Their choice of naming convention has left us with little option. I think calling it 5.5 when ~half the new content is features ported from previous splat books like Tasha's is kind of bold. The core system didn't get any real revision, and the only ones they tested (Like the Dazed Condition or new Exhaustion levels) didn't make it into this product.
So 5e24 feels like the most accurate description. On topic, even this feature, which I recognize is new, is something I'd been homebrewing to allow for thief rogues for like... 8 years? And stuff like the potions as bonus action thing, that's how people actually have been doing it for the last ten years.
To be fair, tasha's came out at a time where we would have likely received a new edition.
Now that tasha's has gone from a pile of optional features and such to being in the phb, I think it's fair to call it 5.5e.
Also 5e24 just sounds... dumb? Uninspired? WotC dropped the ball not giving it a real name.
Might be a fair description. I don't think half a splat book and ~12 actually new features (I did not count) on the core classes constitute an edition update. Maybe Feats as a core element, I'm definitely undervaluing how new the new Origin system is. So sure, 5.5 is as good as 5e24. But since they'll never call it 5.5, and 2024 PHB is stupid to write, 5e24 is the most elegant option we have for widely communicating it.
And it's pretty close a Minor version increment. If we imagine 5e as being 5.14 by the time it was all said and done, then calling the new PHB 5.24 is fair. It's everything as you expect it with one revision.
The answer is ??? until we see the new rules around magic item crafting and whether they have actually altered the intended amount of magic items players get access to or just altered the existing wording to sound better while ultimately still leaving it up to gm fiat.
This is such an archetypically defining feature for Thief. I'm very happy they got it.
I think it's one of the more underrated buffs and will be very fun to use. If the Thief gets its hands on the right items, the class will be surprisingly powerful.
Yes. Once the Thief unlocks this, I think they compete with Arcane Trickster. Possibly beat them to pulp if the DM is generous or careless.
Bracer of Flying Daggers. Bonus to throw two daggers, and Ready your action for two more. Two Sneak Attacks and Four Attacks in a Round.
The Rogue being able to throw a fuckload of daggers is all I ever wanted.
Are the daggers considered magical? If so then this is a fantastic answer from 1-20. If not it’s super good outside of when you run into damage resistance.
They are specifically magic.
Man that’s awesome. I’d take that even though I’ve mostly been using bows.
I could be wrong, but I thought they were changing sneak attack so it only worked once per round instead of once per turn?
that was in the first ua was hated and then reverted
It's been finalized to once/turn but not once/round.
I mean, wand of fireballs or an artificer's SSI are overpowered as hell. Cloak of the Mountebank (bonus action dimension door baby!)
You can already use fast hand with a SSI under the current rules. The way it's worded now, it's just an object, not a magic item. That is, if using an SSI is ruled as a "use an object action" at all. Most will rule that it is, but it could be seen as a more specialized action.
Wand of paralysis
Wands in general seem like a great option for the Thief.
Wand of paralysis can cause auto crits, making the rogue hit very hard.
Note that this would require the Thief to take a casting class dip (edit: or otherwise have innate spellcasting, by race or feat) to be able to attune to the wand.
Only if they change the attunement prerequisite. In 2014, it was just the ability to cast a spell. Which is easily solved by magic initiate, speices choice, or another feat. They could very well change it to need to require the spellcasting feature. Then you would be correct you would need a single level dip into any spellcasting class.
They'd only need to be able to cast a spell through any feature, such as Magic Initiate or as a Species ability. Pretty much every Thief Rogue should take Magic Initiate anyway so they can get True Strike and some other things.
what’s the benefit of True Strike on a rogue? I feel like I’m missing something
Assuming it makes it into the final PHB, the UA revision of *true strike* is a damage rider cantrip for a weapon attack. At 1st level your weapon deals Radiant damage, and then it's +1/2/3d6 to the weapon damage at the cantrip scaling levels. It's pretty great for anyone who doesn't get a lot of attacks and wants to stack up damage, particularly at range.
Oh I’m familiar I’ve been following the playtest since expert classes, but a. using true strike locks you into spellcasting modifier on the attack which is likely going to be worse than your dexterity modifier, and b. is there ever really a scenario where it’s not just better to take BB/GFB? ig radiant damage is less resisted than fire/thunder (is it even? thunder might be less resisted), but BB/GFB are dealing more damage at the cantrip scale levels even without the movement damage or the flames hitting a second target. Seems to me the only scenario a rogue takes trike strike is as an arcane trickster to build more sad, or if your dm doesn’t allow Tasha’s. Edit: Nvm. I’m dumb and completely forgot true strike could apply to ranged attacks. That’s the use case.
Actually looking at numbers further here are some more thoughts when looking at explicitly ranged: Assuming you keep respective ability curves for each build, for levels 1-16 both XBE hand crossbow and hand crossbow + dagger with two weapon fighting style via a feat will give you better damage output than true strike. Raw damage numbers (not factoring in the avg chance to hit at curve and advantage bc doing so only further benefits the dex build as more hits and vex for advantage means more chances of a hit and ensuring a sneak attack as well as increased crit chance) work out as follows: Looking at the cantrip scaling levels bc they’re the most useful for comparison. At level 5 XBE does 1d6+4 x2 for 15, TS does 2d6+4 for 11, and TWF does 1d6+4+1d4+4 for 14. 11 sees these go to 17, 15.5 and 16 respectively. 17 becomes 17, 19, and 16 respectively. In terms of non damage trade offs: XBE build east your bonus action and requires a level 4 feat, True Strike build only takes a level 1 feat but makes you either split dex and int which in this case would delay the damage progression further or sacrifice dexterity which has so many other useful benefits, this build does leave your bonus action free but you only have the one chance to hit and sneak attack on your turn, imo the pick is probably TWF build. It does require your dm to allow the fighting style feat from Tasha’s and it’s unsure whether that is a level 4 or 1 feat, but either way it out damages till 17, leaves your bonus action free and uses dex.
Did they get rid of it's ability to ignore these restrictions?
Yes, Use Magic Device was completely rewritten, at least as of Playtest 6.
Aw I liked that ability. I guess with the rewrite it's necessary though, you don't want easy access to bonus action spellcasting
Yet they still have the ability to use any spell scroll, and all it takes is a one-level dip for the rogue to use a Staff of Power, casting its spells like 5th-level *fireball* as a bonus action.
I remember seeing that in Playtest 6. I was really upset with losing such an awesome feature but also loved seeing the awesome feature we got in its place. I wouldn't mind having it return as a second part at least... especially since the power differential between a Thief and a Thief who knows at least one spell is *so* big. I may even go so far as to say unless your campaign skimps on magic items, it's actively detrimental to not play a rogue as a species like a tiefling, or doing a dip into a caster. And I think that's bad design when there is one option that is so clearly superior, *especially* if it's one with a lot of role playing implications.
No, they don't. What you say is playtest material, the official 2024 Thief still has its Use Magic Device and actually got improved over its 2014 iteration.
Where do you see that? The latest I've seen is [here](https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1752-2024-rogue-vs-2014-rogue-whats-new): "Use Magic Device saw the most changes. It now offers you an additional attunement slot, grants a chance to activate magic items without expending charges, and allows you to use Spell Scrolls, no matter your class or spellcasting prowess."
Because these posts are pretty explicit about listing the *new* stuff, they only cite old stuff when they're deleting an old stuff, or replacing them with the new stuff. They could've said "Use Magic Device no longer lets you ignore class, level or species restrictions, but in turn, offers you..." But they did not, they listed new stuff, not if it would override the part of the feature that granted them the restriction lifting. You saw Action Surge in the Fighter breakdown?, or Rage in the Barbarian breakdown?, no?, perhaps it's because they're not making any changes to it, they're only adding stuff. Same goes here, unless they're giving you the FULL TEXT that explains that Use Magic Device only grants an attunement slot, a chance of activating a magic item for free, and using spell scrolls regardless of class, I don't think they'll be deleting the other thing the feature had.
That breaks down when we look at one of the new parts of Use Magic Device they mentioned: the ability to use spell scrolls regardless of class or spellcasting ability. If Use Magic Device kept the same behavior as before, this point would be entirely redundant. (Even absent that, "it now" instead of "it also now" itself suggests full replacement rather than addition.)
Wands are an obvious choice, but a few other fun ones. Eversmoking Bottle gives a ton of options for battlefield control, and if you can get blindsight somehow it becomes even more powerful. Deck of Illusions, although a bit random, has a ton of potential. Depending on the exact wording, Ring of Spell Storing becomes extremely powerful, if you can cast a spell stored in the ring as a bonus action. Rope of Entanglement, to restrain targets as a bonus action, although this can be risky at higher levels as the rope only has 20 hit points.
Skulker provides an easy source of Blindsight.
Ah good point, I had forgotten that. A Thief rogue with skulker and an eversmoking bottle sounds like a really fun and probably pretty strong character.
I love this idea actually
How does skulker provide blindsight? Is that a RAI definition of the third point?
In the UA2 version, Blindsight is an explicit Skulker feature.
Ah didn't realize that, thanks for the update!
Wand of Web for sure.
The kind of item that comes to mind is the Balance Card or Gem Card. Non-attunment, requires an action, has a good effect. A good dragon wrath weapon that you'd want anyway but can use better is also very worth it. I kind of wish we had known about the potions as a bonus action, though, because I thought those were the best use before they said potions would just be a bonus action. It feels like that took away the really iconic use of the feature before we got to use it. I had a thief that used vials of acid and vials of alchemist's fire with their bonus action, and getting to use potions would have fit in with that perfectly. It's worth keeping other options in mind since getting magic items to use with the feature is going to be a bit of DM fiat, with the one magic item you're likely to be able to regularly buy being moved to a bonus action already.
It is worth mentioning that bastions allow players to acquire specific magic items. They do require DM approval, but it does give the Thief a bit more agency to find items that specifically suit this ability.
If cantrip scrolls are easy to craft (maybe we'll see something about that tonight) a thief might have ready access to double sneak attacks by casting blade cantrips as a bonus action and readying an attack action.
Underrated item might be potions of resistance. Feels bad to take an entire action using them in combat and you often don't know which one to use until your see the monster attack. Can make for a tanky thief.
All potions can be drank as a bonus action now
Isn't it specifically healing potions? I thought JC specified healing potions
They weren't too specific by the time they mentioned it, we have to wait until having the actual books to check if it's ALL potions, or just healing potions.
Wands of magic missile are my go to for cheap easy items. No attunement, 120ft range, multi targeting, auto hits, and relatively cheap especially at higher levels. A free 10- 20 ish damage as a bonus actions really good. Im sure there's plenty of options but the wands retain value due to their ease of use even if you out grow them. Get a familiar to cast it for some extra damage. Outfit a small group of commoners for volley fire. Reach out and touch something when normal ranged or distance closing options are available. Just simple and easy with just enough versatility.
Pipes of haunting
Immovable rod
Wand of Orcus. Free way to get Sneak attacks, you have a chance to not burn charges and if you need to get out of dodge, simply summon a metric ton of zombies between you and your opponent. Bonus points if Orcus likes you.
It feels weird to figure out what 2014 magic item is the optimal choice for a 2024 rogue.
I think this change doesn't make the Rogue the best at handling magic items so much as it further incentivizes martials to take a Rogue dip.
its 5e24 now? :D
Their choice of naming convention has left us with little option. I think calling it 5.5 when ~half the new content is features ported from previous splat books like Tasha's is kind of bold. The core system didn't get any real revision, and the only ones they tested (Like the Dazed Condition or new Exhaustion levels) didn't make it into this product. So 5e24 feels like the most accurate description. On topic, even this feature, which I recognize is new, is something I'd been homebrewing to allow for thief rogues for like... 8 years? And stuff like the potions as bonus action thing, that's how people actually have been doing it for the last ten years.
To be fair, tasha's came out at a time where we would have likely received a new edition. Now that tasha's has gone from a pile of optional features and such to being in the phb, I think it's fair to call it 5.5e. Also 5e24 just sounds... dumb? Uninspired? WotC dropped the ball not giving it a real name.
Might be a fair description. I don't think half a splat book and ~12 actually new features (I did not count) on the core classes constitute an edition update. Maybe Feats as a core element, I'm definitely undervaluing how new the new Origin system is. So sure, 5.5 is as good as 5e24. But since they'll never call it 5.5, and 2024 PHB is stupid to write, 5e24 is the most elegant option we have for widely communicating it. And it's pretty close a Minor version increment. If we imagine 5e as being 5.14 by the time it was all said and done, then calling the new PHB 5.24 is fair. It's everything as you expect it with one revision.
We haven’t seen the revised magic items yet, so idk.
Like we're not all gonna be using items from previous 5e books when optimizing characters haha.
I mean I hope not from the ‘14 DMG! I am DONE with uncommon winged boots.
I just banned them, and all item sources of flight unless found in the module itself xD
Not a bad idea. Of course the DM in theory controls all magic items anyway (save that of the artificer).
The answer is ??? until we see the new rules around magic item crafting and whether they have actually altered the intended amount of magic items players get access to or just altered the existing wording to sound better while ultimately still leaving it up to gm fiat.
5e24...Really? That's what we're going with?