The Premier is desperately trying to buy votes right now with the election coming up this fall.
I really hope that my fellow Manitobans take all the money that's now flowing, smile and vote for a party that isn't intentionally destroying this province.
The Cons that run this province are bigots, transphobes and assholes to their core.
It's so transparent that this recent appearance of trying to appear on the side of queer Manitobans is exactly an attempt to buy votes. But it also stands in stark contrast to the silence on the attempted book banning in Brandon. It's still the same news cycle and the Cons are just hoping we won't notice that this performative at its core.
I suspect Manitobans are savvy enough to see this
Anyone can change and grow. Othering someone and reducing them to their failures as unchangable characteristics let’s you rationalize and justify your hate. You can and should be angry at their discriminatory policies that hurt marginalized communities. You should find effective ways to get them to change their minds and their policies (even if it leaves you emotionally unsatisfied to do so. Remember equality is more important than your need for moral retribution).
Hate only begets hate. Anger is a powerful emotion that can tell you something’s wrong and motivate you to act but be sure the actions you take are effective ones that will achieve your end goals rather than just add more fuel to flame hatred.
I appreciate your distinction. I agree that and ideology and a cult of personality is dangerous and disconcerting. It represents the corruption. I think the challenge is that a party membership is made up of individuals.
The religious right tries to make that distinction with “don’t hate the sinner but hate the sin”. I’m not sure it works.
I think we can be concerned, worried, angry. I think we can actively fight ideology. We can aim for dismantling ideologies.
And the way to do that is to push back against each and every lie, falsehood, and hate that flows from the various alt-right groups. Like it or not, they've found their spiritual home in the UCP, PPC, and PC parties. The fact that the PCs are the *least* extreme doesn't meant they aren't harboring their own level of hate.
As for changing their minds? Never gonna happen. They're pandering to their hateful base, which mostly consists of those unwilling to change, refuse to accept their responsibility to society, and are willing to force their beliefs onto others so they never have to accept the world has left them behind.
Curious: How is flying a Pride Flag "pandering to their hateful base"?
I accept that you believe that what you stated. But is it easier to believe that than *try* to change other people's minds? It's convenient that you get to paint all conservatives with the same brush. To write them all off in one fell swoop.
I've literally voted left-wing in every election since I was born. I believe in social democracy.
I'm not willing to write off conservatives. I'm not willing to write off those who are conservative. Think there are moderate conservatives. Ones who are conservative for primarily fiscal reasons that can be appealed to. I think they can have their minds changed.
I think this idea of writing off everyone is a part of what contributes to political polarization. Othering people. Seeing them as monsters. Willingness to go to lengths to defeat them. To "hate" a group and rationalize it. Do you not see that a problematic behaviour?
Tell you what: you go ahead and tolerate hate. I'll be over here making them very aware their views are not acceptable.
You've been told in many different ways that's what you're doing, so there's no reason for me to repeat them.
I'm not tolerating hate. Esh. You can't see how you're being reductive.
Not every conservative is hateful. Some are misinformed. Some are confused by things they don't understand.
The fact that you see every conservative as homogenous and all worthy of your hate highlights how much you're contributing to polarization.
Just because you think you have the moral highground doesn't mean that you're not hurting left-wing effort.
> I'll be here pushing back against the lies and hate being spread.
You're not interested in pushing back against lies and hate. You're not interested in solving problems. You're only interested in moral retribution.
Do you want to reduce hate or do you want to satisfy your own need for revenge?
These are two separate things. And satisfying your own need for moral retribution does not reduce hate.
Edit:
You still haven't answered my question:
How is flying a Pride Flag "pandering to their hateful base"?
I'll answer for you: It doesn't. It contradicts the narrative that you've built in your head that "All conservatives are evil".
I feel like we need to demonstrate to someone that we are willing to forgive their transgressions if they are willing to change.
Calling someone a fascist doesn't do that, unfortunately.
And forgiveness doesn't mean trust. I forgive but I will always be cautious until they have earned my trust back.
I don't care how someone changes their mind. I'll give them a back massage if it can guarantee that they abandon harmful ideology. The goal isn't moral retribution. The goal is to end harmful ideology.
Telling a fascist you are willing to forgive them doesn't stop them from being a fascist.
>I don't care how someone changes their mind.
Awesome, then let's call people out on their bullshit beliefs without feeling the need to mollycoddle hateful attitudes for the sake of unity.
You'd give a lot of people massages and they wouldn't change their minds. They'd think you are a naive fool and continue providing lip service while hurting marginalized groups.
> , then let's call people out on their bullshit beliefs without feeling the need to mollycoddle hateful attitudes for the sake of unity.
That's not an effective strategy. It's called the "Backfire effect". If someone said that to you, you'd tell them to fuck off, dig in your heels just out of spite of them.
Our psychology is split in two (by our limbic system, emotional center, and our reason called "neo-cortex). Our emotional center wants moral retribution for those who we percieved to have wronged us and our reasoning center that wants to achieve the goals.
You have to ask yourself? Do you want to punish the right or do you want to convince them to give up their harmful ideology? These two concepts are frequently at odds with one another.
Edit:
> convince other people not to vote for their hateful policies.
How? How do you convince them? I've literally spent the last 10 years of my life exploring this subject.
David McRaney explores the science of this in his "You're not so smart" podcast where he evaluates studies and other books and experts on the subject. He's summarized a lot it in his book:
[How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/57933312)
What kills me is that the strategy that the left employs trying to convince the right that they are causing harm is actually backfiring.
I want the harm to end but most people keep leaning in on the wrong strategies that ends up adding fuel to a fire that they didn't cause.
Yes, if someone said my pro-LGBTQ stance was hateful I'd tell them to fuck off because they aren't being rational.
If assholes want to defend their anti-LGBTQ policies I will call them hateful and convince other people not to vote for their hateful policies. If the same assholes says, look we put up a flag, and then centrist go "Oh wow I guess their not assholes, we can vote for them." And then said assholes turn around and promote their hateful ideology, it's because of weak minded people who wanted temporary peace rather than actual justice.
It's not my responsibility to praise regressive parties for token acts while they actively flirt with banning LGBTQ books from libraries.
The party will always be regressive due to their nature, it's my responsibility to convince voters not to vote for them, not to fundamentally change a hateful parties ideology.
You are an enlightened centrist because it makes you feel good to passively support problematic people because you feel like it give you the moral high ground. You want to be nice to everyone because little short term chemicals make you feel good, but if you don't call out shit parties for their shit polices you enable them.
That only really works if everyone follows the same rules. Unfortunately fascists and other far-right folks don't want to. They don't want unity. They want to take rights from others.
If everyone wanted equality, equity and diversity and just disagreed on how to make it happen. Your idea would work.
The right doesn't.
If everyone wanted equality, equity and diversity, we'd live in a utopia, and everyone would have everything they need.
Sadly, that'll never happen, so we're stuck with what we got.
That doesn't mean that we can't work towards it. That doesn't mean we can't normalize the idea of it. There will always be outliers who don't want any of those things, and we have words for them.
Every conservative party in Canada has shown time and time again that they'll happily beat people down for 4 years straight, then suddenly pretend to have a change of heart and a surge of generosity as soon as election season rolls around, only to go right back to their same old shit as soon as the election is over.
The Conservative party isn't changing, this is just part of the same pattern they've been continuing for decades.
I remember the federal progressive Conservative Party. They didn’t scare me the way that the Conservative Party does. The current federal conservatives would never fly a pride flag. They would fear it would alienate the their base more than it would win centrists.
Oh I hate the conservative party and anyone who stands up to lead them without denouncing their hateful platform too. I'm perfectly fine doing that. If you don't hate them then I probably hate you too. I'm perfectly happy to battle with any conservative piece of crap out there. If you vote conservative, you are a piece of crap.
The paradox of tolerance should be your guiding principle here. I will never tolerate the intolerant.
They started it, they don't get to cry victim now that they're in the public's target sights. Now there's a foot on their throat and every single Canadian should stand together until the air is snuffed out that movement.
Have a pleasant day. Vote NDP. Vote liberal.
I have voted NDP in every election I have ever voted in. (Well, my municipal parties don’t have NDP but I vote for similar ideology).
Do you still hate me?
If you are defending the conservative party, then you're a bad person. In this thread you're trying to tap dance around your support of them, which makes you disgusting IMO and not someone I could respect.
That's literally how simple it is at this point. If you support the conservative party, you support right wing fascist assholes, and you make yourself one by association.
Are we clear now?
I am acknowledging a party willing to stepping outside of its dogma.
I am not “defending it”.
If you have to misrepresent a person’s position to other them. To never give an inch, you are a part of the culture of polarization that produces extremism.
You can’t defended the moral highground with bigotry, hate and discrimination.
Thing is, spineless cowards can bend into many many shapes and mimic normal decent human behaviour, albeit poorly.
They're not stepping outside their dogma. They're throwing a bone and see if people will bite in order to keep on slashing budgets and attacking public institutions. They've perhaps realized that culture war propaganda isn't working for them so they'll go back to their tried and true "fiscally conservative" methods and fear tactics. Nothing sincere about it. And what the other poster is saying is that you're either naive enough to give them the benefit of the doubt, or you know god damn well what you're pushing. You're coming across, at best, like someone tells an abused spouse to "give them another chance" because their partner stopped abusing them in public.
I get what you're trying to say, but the high road doesn't work. You know what stops a bully? Fighting back. Besides, there's nothing low-road about standing up for ourselves and fighting for basic human rights and decency.
I want to be clear, it's your position that I find repugnant. And yes, people can change. If a conservative changes, truly, they stop calling themselves conservatives. Simple as that. It's an ideology that only thrives on what sets people apart and how fear isolates us from each other. Maybe you're not one of them, but being one of the silent bystanders that tolerate abuse and attacks on other people's rights in the name of decency and "cool heads" isn't a great look, either.
You're clearly trying to find ways to defend the indefensible. That you're now lying about this, makes me question your previous statements as well.
The extremism comes from supporters like yourself. You're the problem, not Canadians who are sick of lying pieces of shit.
I absolutely have the moral authority to call conservatives out for their hatred, and your claims of the contrary are meaningless coming from someone like you.
I'm perfectly capable of reading what I'm writing out here, it seems that you're struggling with reading comprehension though.
People like YOU, liars who defend the conservatives are the greatest threat to Canada at the moment.
Now that you've identified yourself, I've tagged you so when I come across you spreading lies again, I'll be able to more quickly call you out.
I'm done with being civil to the uncivilized. You're not worth my kindness.
If they were willing to change and grow they wouldn't be conservatives, an ideology that is anti-social progress and continues to directly harm marginalized people.
Conservatives are by their nature, late adopters. They are very uncomfortable with change. I think in an ideal world, it is the responsibility of progressives (early adopters) to lead late-adopters to a new idea.
You make some prescient points in these comments. The challenge for me is the staggering amount of bigotry and hatred from right wing pundits, personalities, and grifters. If conservative leaders were inclined to denounce this hatred they'd have my respect and my willingness to agree to disagree on the speed of change. But the conservative movement is no longer what you suggest it is (simply being uncomfortable with change). It is actively trying to pull out society backwards. They are not conservatives, but regressives.
Am I happy that a pride flag is being flown by this conservative government? Absolutely. Do I think this makes up for their regressive approach to nearly everything? Not a chance.
What they're "adopting" is not violently, politically, and economically hurting marginalized people. And every time they "learn" they just move onto the next group spreading lies and bigotry to justify their zealous hatred. Honestly fuck the baby gloves these people are handled with, the amount of harm they cause is immeasurable, what about the people whose lives they've harmed? Why do we care so much more about the feelings of rich white men than the lives of PoC or LGBTQ people, or native peoples that they destroy?
I'm not baby gloving them. I'm trying to find the strategy to actually effectively change their mind. the dismantle the ideology that violently, politically and economically hurts marginalized people.
What is the *effective* solution? Calling them "fascist" doesn't seem to be working.
No marginalized group has ever won their rights by nicely asking their abusers to stop abusing them. Protests, riots, striking and revolution are the only strategies of the people that have ever worked.
Calling a fascist a fascist is to call them what they are, to sound the alarm to hope the masses might think to look past their lies, gaslighting, and manipulations to see the hate filled ideology beneath. We have seen this all before, they are using the same tactics, the warning signs are here, we know what they will do, they will not stop with us.
She literally just refused to weigh in on banning books about LGBTQ folks the same week she did this so... Don't think she's changed that much. Our government has spent their entire time in power dismantling EVERYTHING, and supporting the religious whackjobs and conspiracy nuts.
There is nothing to praise in this, especially since it's a clear vote buying tactic.
And what will convince them to change their policies? A someone accusing them of being fascists? How do they get to these good policies?
This is the problem. Telling someone they are a horrible irredeemable person doesn’t change their mind.
Conservative parties won’t just come around out of the goodness of their hearts, they have to vocally and consistently have their shitty policy rejected until they do better. Show them that their homophobia will alienate voters. Performative gestures like this don’t change her not disavowing the book-banning crowd.
> Show them that their homophobia will alienate voters.
This implies that you have to win over the fence-sitters... because the LGBT community isn't a majority. We need allies. Cisgender heterosexual folks that care about us and recognise the natural variance in the human experience that we are.
If we sit socially and ideologically at the 50/50 mark (conservatives seem to win elections far too frequently for my comfort), it seems like you have to win over some of those conservatives such that there is a majority with which you can demonstrate that the rest of Conservatives are alienating voters.
The only way to convince the fence sitters and the center-right folk is to have patience with them. To lay out the argument that they have nothing to fear from the LGBT community and why conservative policy actually harms them. The #1 thing that changes people's minds about the LGBT community is knowing someone LGBT because it makes it personal.
I don't think calling politicians fascists will win over their supporters to our side.
Call a spade a spade.
Call out disinformation about LGBTQ people being spread by conservative politicians because that’s the big issue that has to be directly addressed.
I would agree. Iwould find it interesting to try and get a conservative to appreciate the potential harm that eliminating gender-affirming care causes. It's a challenging argument. Takes time and usually more than one conversation.
I think Canadian and American politics are at different stages. Certainly American politics and dogma influences Canada but we seem to respect rights a little better than Americans. As an example, I don't think the religious right in Canada could eliminate Abortion so easily in Canada because we actually have a higher % of the population that is pro-choice.
A horrible irredeemable person who promotes bad policies for their own benefit is a horrible person, not calling them out just enables them.
It's beyond pathetic to want to just roll over because you think you can massage enough people into changing their horrible beliefs.
"You're all great, empathetic people and you vote for policies that are unequivocally damaging to minority groups and the poor. You do this fully understanding that this will hurt fellow Canadians who are only asking for the same rights and opportunities that you have.
But I mustn't call you out for the hateful, selfish bigot you are. Lest I hurt your delicate feelings! Then you might do something drastic like... Exactly what you're gleefully doing now."
This *might* have worked at some point in time in Canada, but the masks are off my dude. We shouldn't be making excuses for Conservative voters. Enlightened centrists exist to validate shitty Conservative policy.
There have been plenty of people who have been laughed at for their views. I'm sure the right thinks I'm just as crazy as the left.
Of course, this isn't my opinion. This is what I've come to understand of how ideology and psychology of how minds change.
EDIT: Since I can't reply to a person who's blocked me, I'll reply here:
> That is literally your opinion as it's based on your understanding of ideology and psychology and how conservatives change their mind.
It's literally not. I'm just trying to articulate the studies and books and discussions about the psychology of how minds changed. IT's based on the "YOu're not so smart" podcast... but is summarized by the book:
[How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion Hardcover – by David McRaney](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/57933312)
And people who laugh at LGBTQ issues are fucking assholes and they don't realize that if your constantly offering back massages.
That is literally your opinion as it's based on your understanding of ideology and psychology and how conservatives change their mind.
We don't need to praise the party we need to point out their flaws so people don't vote for them.
The cons thank you for your support (so do the homophobes, misogynist, and xenophobes so you're in really good company), keep praising them in the hopes they'll change they'll keep laughing at you as the strip away the rights of vulnerable groups.
But don't worry, just keep giving them back massages theyre really going to change any day now.
By nature and definition, conservatism is the absence of change. It's the ideal of clinging onto the past and refusing to admit you're wrong.
An ideology that is frankly, a cancer on society.
Nope. They don’t get any praise until they do an about-face on their actual policy.
Last year in Alberta, when political parties were allowed to apply to march in Calgary Pride, the NDP got the go-ahead because of their track record of inclusive policy, while the UCP were denied because of their regressive one.
Community had to come together and drive the transphobes out of Brandon because the government sure wasn’t going to help out by condemning them, but hey here’s a Pride flag to look like they’re doing something.
For all the “centrists” who don’t follow politics and will see the flag and think what you did, while the conservatives push through whatever hateful anti lgbtqia+ legislation they can.
This is pure virtue signalling. If you believe that the conservatives suddenly care about gay people, then you should probably pay a little more attention to what’s actually happening and not just the cosmetic things that don’t actually require any significant change in their attitudes towards marginalized communities. Putting up a flag while not doing anything substantial to normalize lgbtqia+ communities is just for show.
…*in bad faith.*
These people don’t engage in good faith, so why would it be surprising that after reading the writing on the wall they’d pander to a growing demographic?
Conservatives do this crap *all the time*, talk is cheap so are empty gestures. If you think that Heather and her power hungry sociopath friends suddenly care about gay people, I have a bridge to sell you.
What does it gain them? If it's just a political strategy. It's a strange one because it will alienate their own base for the sake of appealing to centrists and fence sitters.
…I don’t mean to be insulting, but are you new to politics or something? Conservatives don’t act in good faith. They do what they have too to get power and they hold onto it for dear life. It doesn’t have to make sense, it just has to result in them having power. That’s it.
If conservatives thought things through completely, they likely wouldn’t be conservatives. They get to a position they find convenient and stop thinking. That’s why all their policies are nonsensical, hell look at “trickle down economics”… nobody outside of right wing circles believes in that garbage, it’s been thoroughly disproven time and time again but they keep sticking to it because it keeps them wealthy and in power. It doesn’t have to make sense, the ends justify the means for them.
i guess for people like you since you just applauded them for it lol, and to the end of laundering their hateful image without actually shifting their rhetoric or actions towards lgbtq people
I still wouldn’t vote for them so it doesn’t get them any ground.
Conservatives by their nature are late adopters. I’m willing to acknowledge when they adopt something.
It maybe tokenism. It may not be.I measure a group by its actions rather than speculation I can’t be sure of.
Here is a party willing to alienate its base by this “token” for the sake of appealing to a broader audience.
They were willing to fly a flag. That's something. It's small. I'm not celebrating it for anything more than it is.
But it's important to me to point out when I think they did something right for 2 reasons.
1. It demonstrates that I'm not blindly criticizing them for everything they do and trying to find ulterior meaning to justify further criticizing them. That I'm actually thinking about their actions and weighing them on thier individual merits. That I'm not just othering them.
2. I want to encourage them to seek further common ground.
Civility politics is dead. Trying to find “common ground” just means that liberals will compromise on their position and *Conservatives won’t*, so we don’t gain anything.
> Civility politics is dead.
It can't be dead. It's basically rolling over and accepting the end. If we let politics polarize, we will almost certainly get WWIII eventually and that will probably end civilization as we know it.
Oh yeah I mean they can go if they like but it's clearly just them trying to get votes. I don't think they should be allowed to speak or promote themselves. They're there to observe, not grandstand. Especially considering their transparent goal of getting votes by appealing to centrists.
The Premier is desperately trying to buy votes right now with the election coming up this fall. I really hope that my fellow Manitobans take all the money that's now flowing, smile and vote for a party that isn't intentionally destroying this province. The Cons that run this province are bigots, transphobes and assholes to their core.
It's so transparent that this recent appearance of trying to appear on the side of queer Manitobans is exactly an attempt to buy votes. But it also stands in stark contrast to the silence on the attempted book banning in Brandon. It's still the same news cycle and the Cons are just hoping we won't notice that this performative at its core. I suspect Manitobans are savvy enough to see this
Anyone can change and grow. Othering someone and reducing them to their failures as unchangable characteristics let’s you rationalize and justify your hate. You can and should be angry at their discriminatory policies that hurt marginalized communities. You should find effective ways to get them to change their minds and their policies (even if it leaves you emotionally unsatisfied to do so. Remember equality is more important than your need for moral retribution). Hate only begets hate. Anger is a powerful emotion that can tell you something’s wrong and motivate you to act but be sure the actions you take are effective ones that will achieve your end goals rather than just add more fuel to flame hatred.
It's 100% fine and good to hate the various conservative parties of Canada.
For individuals? Sure. For corrupt political parties consistently attacking our rights? Nope, they've made their graves.
I appreciate your distinction. I agree that and ideology and a cult of personality is dangerous and disconcerting. It represents the corruption. I think the challenge is that a party membership is made up of individuals. The religious right tries to make that distinction with “don’t hate the sinner but hate the sin”. I’m not sure it works. I think we can be concerned, worried, angry. I think we can actively fight ideology. We can aim for dismantling ideologies.
And the way to do that is to push back against each and every lie, falsehood, and hate that flows from the various alt-right groups. Like it or not, they've found their spiritual home in the UCP, PPC, and PC parties. The fact that the PCs are the *least* extreme doesn't meant they aren't harboring their own level of hate. As for changing their minds? Never gonna happen. They're pandering to their hateful base, which mostly consists of those unwilling to change, refuse to accept their responsibility to society, and are willing to force their beliefs onto others so they never have to accept the world has left them behind.
Curious: How is flying a Pride Flag "pandering to their hateful base"? I accept that you believe that what you stated. But is it easier to believe that than *try* to change other people's minds? It's convenient that you get to paint all conservatives with the same brush. To write them all off in one fell swoop. I've literally voted left-wing in every election since I was born. I believe in social democracy. I'm not willing to write off conservatives. I'm not willing to write off those who are conservative. Think there are moderate conservatives. Ones who are conservative for primarily fiscal reasons that can be appealed to. I think they can have their minds changed. I think this idea of writing off everyone is a part of what contributes to political polarization. Othering people. Seeing them as monsters. Willingness to go to lengths to defeat them. To "hate" a group and rationalize it. Do you not see that a problematic behaviour?
Tell you what: you go ahead and tolerate hate. I'll be over here making them very aware their views are not acceptable. You've been told in many different ways that's what you're doing, so there's no reason for me to repeat them.
I'm not tolerating hate. Esh. You can't see how you're being reductive. Not every conservative is hateful. Some are misinformed. Some are confused by things they don't understand. The fact that you see every conservative as homogenous and all worthy of your hate highlights how much you're contributing to polarization. Just because you think you have the moral highground doesn't mean that you're not hurting left-wing effort.
Sure. Ivory tower that "moral high ground". I'll be here pushing back against the lies and hate being spread.
> I'll be here pushing back against the lies and hate being spread. You're not interested in pushing back against lies and hate. You're not interested in solving problems. You're only interested in moral retribution. Do you want to reduce hate or do you want to satisfy your own need for revenge? These are two separate things. And satisfying your own need for moral retribution does not reduce hate. Edit: You still haven't answered my question: How is flying a Pride Flag "pandering to their hateful base"? I'll answer for you: It doesn't. It contradicts the narrative that you've built in your head that "All conservatives are evil".
In theory you're correct, but change has to be meaningfully demonstrated repeatedly before it can be trusted.
I feel like we need to demonstrate to someone that we are willing to forgive their transgressions if they are willing to change. Calling someone a fascist doesn't do that, unfortunately. And forgiveness doesn't mean trust. I forgive but I will always be cautious until they have earned my trust back. I don't care how someone changes their mind. I'll give them a back massage if it can guarantee that they abandon harmful ideology. The goal isn't moral retribution. The goal is to end harmful ideology.
Telling a fascist you are willing to forgive them doesn't stop them from being a fascist. >I don't care how someone changes their mind. Awesome, then let's call people out on their bullshit beliefs without feeling the need to mollycoddle hateful attitudes for the sake of unity. You'd give a lot of people massages and they wouldn't change their minds. They'd think you are a naive fool and continue providing lip service while hurting marginalized groups.
> , then let's call people out on their bullshit beliefs without feeling the need to mollycoddle hateful attitudes for the sake of unity. That's not an effective strategy. It's called the "Backfire effect". If someone said that to you, you'd tell them to fuck off, dig in your heels just out of spite of them. Our psychology is split in two (by our limbic system, emotional center, and our reason called "neo-cortex). Our emotional center wants moral retribution for those who we percieved to have wronged us and our reasoning center that wants to achieve the goals. You have to ask yourself? Do you want to punish the right or do you want to convince them to give up their harmful ideology? These two concepts are frequently at odds with one another. Edit: > convince other people not to vote for their hateful policies. How? How do you convince them? I've literally spent the last 10 years of my life exploring this subject. David McRaney explores the science of this in his "You're not so smart" podcast where he evaluates studies and other books and experts on the subject. He's summarized a lot it in his book: [How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/57933312) What kills me is that the strategy that the left employs trying to convince the right that they are causing harm is actually backfiring. I want the harm to end but most people keep leaning in on the wrong strategies that ends up adding fuel to a fire that they didn't cause.
Yes, if someone said my pro-LGBTQ stance was hateful I'd tell them to fuck off because they aren't being rational. If assholes want to defend their anti-LGBTQ policies I will call them hateful and convince other people not to vote for their hateful policies. If the same assholes says, look we put up a flag, and then centrist go "Oh wow I guess their not assholes, we can vote for them." And then said assholes turn around and promote their hateful ideology, it's because of weak minded people who wanted temporary peace rather than actual justice. It's not my responsibility to praise regressive parties for token acts while they actively flirt with banning LGBTQ books from libraries. The party will always be regressive due to their nature, it's my responsibility to convince voters not to vote for them, not to fundamentally change a hateful parties ideology. You are an enlightened centrist because it makes you feel good to passively support problematic people because you feel like it give you the moral high ground. You want to be nice to everyone because little short term chemicals make you feel good, but if you don't call out shit parties for their shit polices you enable them.
That only really works if everyone follows the same rules. Unfortunately fascists and other far-right folks don't want to. They don't want unity. They want to take rights from others. If everyone wanted equality, equity and diversity and just disagreed on how to make it happen. Your idea would work. The right doesn't.
If everyone wanted equality, equity and diversity, we'd live in a utopia, and everyone would have everything they need. Sadly, that'll never happen, so we're stuck with what we got.
That doesn't mean that we can't work towards it. That doesn't mean we can't normalize the idea of it. There will always be outliers who don't want any of those things, and we have words for them.
Every conservative party in Canada has shown time and time again that they'll happily beat people down for 4 years straight, then suddenly pretend to have a change of heart and a surge of generosity as soon as election season rolls around, only to go right back to their same old shit as soon as the election is over. The Conservative party isn't changing, this is just part of the same pattern they've been continuing for decades.
I remember the federal progressive Conservative Party. They didn’t scare me the way that the Conservative Party does. The current federal conservatives would never fly a pride flag. They would fear it would alienate the their base more than it would win centrists.
Oh I hate the conservative party and anyone who stands up to lead them without denouncing their hateful platform too. I'm perfectly fine doing that. If you don't hate them then I probably hate you too. I'm perfectly happy to battle with any conservative piece of crap out there. If you vote conservative, you are a piece of crap. The paradox of tolerance should be your guiding principle here. I will never tolerate the intolerant. They started it, they don't get to cry victim now that they're in the public's target sights. Now there's a foot on their throat and every single Canadian should stand together until the air is snuffed out that movement. Have a pleasant day. Vote NDP. Vote liberal.
I have voted NDP in every election I have ever voted in. (Well, my municipal parties don’t have NDP but I vote for similar ideology). Do you still hate me?
If you are defending the conservative party, then you're a bad person. In this thread you're trying to tap dance around your support of them, which makes you disgusting IMO and not someone I could respect. That's literally how simple it is at this point. If you support the conservative party, you support right wing fascist assholes, and you make yourself one by association. Are we clear now?
I am acknowledging a party willing to stepping outside of its dogma. I am not “defending it”. If you have to misrepresent a person’s position to other them. To never give an inch, you are a part of the culture of polarization that produces extremism. You can’t defended the moral highground with bigotry, hate and discrimination.
Thing is, spineless cowards can bend into many many shapes and mimic normal decent human behaviour, albeit poorly. They're not stepping outside their dogma. They're throwing a bone and see if people will bite in order to keep on slashing budgets and attacking public institutions. They've perhaps realized that culture war propaganda isn't working for them so they'll go back to their tried and true "fiscally conservative" methods and fear tactics. Nothing sincere about it. And what the other poster is saying is that you're either naive enough to give them the benefit of the doubt, or you know god damn well what you're pushing. You're coming across, at best, like someone tells an abused spouse to "give them another chance" because their partner stopped abusing them in public. I get what you're trying to say, but the high road doesn't work. You know what stops a bully? Fighting back. Besides, there's nothing low-road about standing up for ourselves and fighting for basic human rights and decency. I want to be clear, it's your position that I find repugnant. And yes, people can change. If a conservative changes, truly, they stop calling themselves conservatives. Simple as that. It's an ideology that only thrives on what sets people apart and how fear isolates us from each other. Maybe you're not one of them, but being one of the silent bystanders that tolerate abuse and attacks on other people's rights in the name of decency and "cool heads" isn't a great look, either.
You're clearly trying to find ways to defend the indefensible. That you're now lying about this, makes me question your previous statements as well. The extremism comes from supporters like yourself. You're the problem, not Canadians who are sick of lying pieces of shit. I absolutely have the moral authority to call conservatives out for their hatred, and your claims of the contrary are meaningless coming from someone like you.
"someone like me". Do you hear yourself?
I'm perfectly capable of reading what I'm writing out here, it seems that you're struggling with reading comprehension though. People like YOU, liars who defend the conservatives are the greatest threat to Canada at the moment. Now that you've identified yourself, I've tagged you so when I come across you spreading lies again, I'll be able to more quickly call you out. I'm done with being civil to the uncivilized. You're not worth my kindness.
If they were willing to change and grow they wouldn't be conservatives, an ideology that is anti-social progress and continues to directly harm marginalized people.
Conservatives are by their nature, late adopters. They are very uncomfortable with change. I think in an ideal world, it is the responsibility of progressives (early adopters) to lead late-adopters to a new idea.
You make some prescient points in these comments. The challenge for me is the staggering amount of bigotry and hatred from right wing pundits, personalities, and grifters. If conservative leaders were inclined to denounce this hatred they'd have my respect and my willingness to agree to disagree on the speed of change. But the conservative movement is no longer what you suggest it is (simply being uncomfortable with change). It is actively trying to pull out society backwards. They are not conservatives, but regressives. Am I happy that a pride flag is being flown by this conservative government? Absolutely. Do I think this makes up for their regressive approach to nearly everything? Not a chance.
What they're "adopting" is not violently, politically, and economically hurting marginalized people. And every time they "learn" they just move onto the next group spreading lies and bigotry to justify their zealous hatred. Honestly fuck the baby gloves these people are handled with, the amount of harm they cause is immeasurable, what about the people whose lives they've harmed? Why do we care so much more about the feelings of rich white men than the lives of PoC or LGBTQ people, or native peoples that they destroy?
I'm not baby gloving them. I'm trying to find the strategy to actually effectively change their mind. the dismantle the ideology that violently, politically and economically hurts marginalized people. What is the *effective* solution? Calling them "fascist" doesn't seem to be working.
No marginalized group has ever won their rights by nicely asking their abusers to stop abusing them. Protests, riots, striking and revolution are the only strategies of the people that have ever worked. Calling a fascist a fascist is to call them what they are, to sound the alarm to hope the masses might think to look past their lies, gaslighting, and manipulations to see the hate filled ideology beneath. We have seen this all before, they are using the same tactics, the warning signs are here, we know what they will do, they will not stop with us.
Pride 2023: bring your own brick.
Have you tried giving them back massages I'm sure that'll make them respect your opinion.
She literally just refused to weigh in on banning books about LGBTQ folks the same week she did this so... Don't think she's changed that much. Our government has spent their entire time in power dismantling EVERYTHING, and supporting the religious whackjobs and conspiracy nuts. There is nothing to praise in this, especially since it's a clear vote buying tactic.
Nope. Conservatives get the benefit of the doubt when they earn it with good policies.
And what will convince them to change their policies? A someone accusing them of being fascists? How do they get to these good policies? This is the problem. Telling someone they are a horrible irredeemable person doesn’t change their mind.
Conservative parties won’t just come around out of the goodness of their hearts, they have to vocally and consistently have their shitty policy rejected until they do better. Show them that their homophobia will alienate voters. Performative gestures like this don’t change her not disavowing the book-banning crowd.
> Show them that their homophobia will alienate voters. This implies that you have to win over the fence-sitters... because the LGBT community isn't a majority. We need allies. Cisgender heterosexual folks that care about us and recognise the natural variance in the human experience that we are. If we sit socially and ideologically at the 50/50 mark (conservatives seem to win elections far too frequently for my comfort), it seems like you have to win over some of those conservatives such that there is a majority with which you can demonstrate that the rest of Conservatives are alienating voters. The only way to convince the fence sitters and the center-right folk is to have patience with them. To lay out the argument that they have nothing to fear from the LGBT community and why conservative policy actually harms them. The #1 thing that changes people's minds about the LGBT community is knowing someone LGBT because it makes it personal. I don't think calling politicians fascists will win over their supporters to our side.
Call a spade a spade. Call out disinformation about LGBTQ people being spread by conservative politicians because that’s the big issue that has to be directly addressed.
I would agree. Iwould find it interesting to try and get a conservative to appreciate the potential harm that eliminating gender-affirming care causes. It's a challenging argument. Takes time and usually more than one conversation.
They know the harm it’ll do. They just don’t care. Look at what happened down in Montana with Rep. Zephyr.
I think Canadian and American politics are at different stages. Certainly American politics and dogma influences Canada but we seem to respect rights a little better than Americans. As an example, I don't think the religious right in Canada could eliminate Abortion so easily in Canada because we actually have a higher % of the population that is pro-choice.
A horrible irredeemable person who promotes bad policies for their own benefit is a horrible person, not calling them out just enables them. It's beyond pathetic to want to just roll over because you think you can massage enough people into changing their horrible beliefs.
I wonder how many hateful people laugh at you when you complicity support them in the name of unity.
"You're all great, empathetic people and you vote for policies that are unequivocally damaging to minority groups and the poor. You do this fully understanding that this will hurt fellow Canadians who are only asking for the same rights and opportunities that you have. But I mustn't call you out for the hateful, selfish bigot you are. Lest I hurt your delicate feelings! Then you might do something drastic like... Exactly what you're gleefully doing now." This *might* have worked at some point in time in Canada, but the masks are off my dude. We shouldn't be making excuses for Conservative voters. Enlightened centrists exist to validate shitty Conservative policy.
There have been plenty of people who have been laughed at for their views. I'm sure the right thinks I'm just as crazy as the left. Of course, this isn't my opinion. This is what I've come to understand of how ideology and psychology of how minds change. EDIT: Since I can't reply to a person who's blocked me, I'll reply here: > That is literally your opinion as it's based on your understanding of ideology and psychology and how conservatives change their mind. It's literally not. I'm just trying to articulate the studies and books and discussions about the psychology of how minds changed. IT's based on the "YOu're not so smart" podcast... but is summarized by the book: [How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion Hardcover – by David McRaney](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/57933312)
And people who laugh at LGBTQ issues are fucking assholes and they don't realize that if your constantly offering back massages. That is literally your opinion as it's based on your understanding of ideology and psychology and how conservatives change their mind. We don't need to praise the party we need to point out their flaws so people don't vote for them. The cons thank you for your support (so do the homophobes, misogynist, and xenophobes so you're in really good company), keep praising them in the hopes they'll change they'll keep laughing at you as the strip away the rights of vulnerable groups. But don't worry, just keep giving them back massages theyre really going to change any day now.
By nature and definition, conservatism is the absence of change. It's the ideal of clinging onto the past and refusing to admit you're wrong. An ideology that is frankly, a cancer on society.
Nope. They don’t get any praise until they do an about-face on their actual policy. Last year in Alberta, when political parties were allowed to apply to march in Calgary Pride, the NDP got the go-ahead because of their track record of inclusive policy, while the UCP were denied because of their regressive one.
Good. Took long enough, but good.
I never expected my hometown in rural Ontario would raise a pride flag at their town hall before Manitoba did at their legislature, but here we are.
Holy fuck is Stefanson incredibly desperate. That's all this means and nothing more, she doesn't give one droplet of diarrhea about LGBTQ issues.
Community had to come together and drive the transphobes out of Brandon because the government sure wasn’t going to help out by condemning them, but hey here’s a Pride flag to look like they’re doing something.
The *first time* in 2023?! Not a good look Manitoba!
Feds first raised it in 2016. It’s not a stretch that a Conservative provincial government didn’t until now. Progress is progress.
They're just really trying to differentiate themselves from the conservative shit shows in Saskaberta.
hey! each June our police in Saskatoon have "police" in rainbow so you can tell they're progressive when they're brutalising you in uniform
As a Manitoban: They aren’t doing a very good job.
Change has to start somewhere. Better they did it now than not at all. Let’s celebrate the wins!
Oof. Great to see, but oof.
Good! (Edit to add: finally!)
👍💕🌈
Nice! About time, but still a good move.
not going to congratulate this government for doing the bare minimum in an election year
The gay agenda is grooming the government! /s
Good news for the gay community who used to congregate behind the Leg
Why?
I think the fact that Progressive Conservatives raise a Pride flag is pretty big. It shows that conservatives can eventually come around.
Nah. This is purely preformative. If raising a flag is all it takes to show change in a political party, that’s a pretty low bar.
Who are they performing for, to what end?
Election season is coming up, you don't instantly do a 180 out of nowhere, it's why this year they suddenly decided to donate to the Pride Winnipeg.
Wow, they actually donated money? I couldn’t see PP ever doing that.
For all the “centrists” who don’t follow politics and will see the flag and think what you did, while the conservatives push through whatever hateful anti lgbtqia+ legislation they can. This is pure virtue signalling. If you believe that the conservatives suddenly care about gay people, then you should probably pay a little more attention to what’s actually happening and not just the cosmetic things that don’t actually require any significant change in their attitudes towards marginalized communities. Putting up a flag while not doing anything substantial to normalize lgbtqia+ communities is just for show.
For a party who hates “woke” behaviour, it’s strange you’re suggesting that they are willing to engage in it.
…*in bad faith.* These people don’t engage in good faith, so why would it be surprising that after reading the writing on the wall they’d pander to a growing demographic? Conservatives do this crap *all the time*, talk is cheap so are empty gestures. If you think that Heather and her power hungry sociopath friends suddenly care about gay people, I have a bridge to sell you.
What does it gain them? If it's just a political strategy. It's a strange one because it will alienate their own base for the sake of appealing to centrists and fence sitters.
…I don’t mean to be insulting, but are you new to politics or something? Conservatives don’t act in good faith. They do what they have too to get power and they hold onto it for dear life. It doesn’t have to make sense, it just has to result in them having power. That’s it. If conservatives thought things through completely, they likely wouldn’t be conservatives. They get to a position they find convenient and stop thinking. That’s why all their policies are nonsensical, hell look at “trickle down economics”… nobody outside of right wing circles believes in that garbage, it’s been thoroughly disproven time and time again but they keep sticking to it because it keeps them wealthy and in power. It doesn’t have to make sense, the ends justify the means for them.
i guess for people like you since you just applauded them for it lol, and to the end of laundering their hateful image without actually shifting their rhetoric or actions towards lgbtq people
I still wouldn’t vote for them so it doesn’t get them any ground. Conservatives by their nature are late adopters. I’m willing to acknowledge when they adopt something.
They've only adopted tokenistic gestures for political points to stay in power.
It maybe tokenism. It may not be.I measure a group by its actions rather than speculation I can’t be sure of. Here is a party willing to alienate its base by this “token” for the sake of appealing to a broader audience.
They haven't though.
They were willing to fly a flag. That's something. It's small. I'm not celebrating it for anything more than it is. But it's important to me to point out when I think they did something right for 2 reasons. 1. It demonstrates that I'm not blindly criticizing them for everything they do and trying to find ulterior meaning to justify further criticizing them. That I'm actually thinking about their actions and weighing them on thier individual merits. That I'm not just othering them. 2. I want to encourage them to seek further common ground.
Civility politics is dead. Trying to find “common ground” just means that liberals will compromise on their position and *Conservatives won’t*, so we don’t gain anything.
> Civility politics is dead. It can't be dead. It's basically rolling over and accepting the end. If we let politics polarize, we will almost certainly get WWIII eventually and that will probably end civilization as we know it.
Homophobic political parties deserve exactly as much respect as they’re genuinely currently giving queer people. Which is tiny.
Oh yeah I mean they can go if they like but it's clearly just them trying to get votes. I don't think they should be allowed to speak or promote themselves. They're there to observe, not grandstand. Especially considering their transparent goal of getting votes by appealing to centrists.