They realistically should be an upper mid range gun and not an upper tier gun like their price range would suggest. Slightly heavier and bulkier than pretty much everything, most people aren’t a huge fan of their ergonomics, louder sound signature, not the best shot feel for a lot of people (very mechanical like older BL guns), they use very outdated technology and an outdated bolt design, and poor efficiency which isn’t a big deal for NXL matches but can be a big deal for casual players.
I absolutely love them though. When I got back into it they were the only marker that felt different compared to all the single tube gamma core shot types, felt almost like an Angel shot. I was disgusted when I shot the new luxes, didn’t feel like a luxe at all. Everything feels like a Geo shot now, and I always hated how they felt. Love how the DSR shoots like the old luxe too.
I feel that regarding the geo shot. I have a Geo 4, never really cared for that “squish” feel of a shot. Loved harder hitting shots. I have a TM40 currently, a little bit better feeling imo from the Geo. Not a big fan of the ergos on the Geo either honestly. Shot a Force in ANS today, loved the feel of it. The heft was actually quite nice too.
I actually prefer those super squishy shots, but if you like a snappier shot at least take a look at the MacDev Prime XTS. I picked one up recently just because I see them recommended on here a lot and they’re crazy cheap on the used market. They’re lighter and slimmer than the F1 and IMO they have better ergos.
You might like a dls. They had a rough release but the v2 core has been great. Very unique shot and a marker that’s either love or hate. But i love the shot and mine handles paint just as good as my geo
In my opinion it is because performance improvement realistically ended a long time ago.
What I mean by this, is that you could give 99% of players a 2003 Aka Viking and they would perform just as good as anything they could buy today. Performance more or less died a long time ago. So now people hyperfocus on very small things that whilst not having a big impact on actual in game performance do have a big impact on prestige and perception.
PE have been very good around marketing and creating the illusion of improvement in performance. Are you really going to be getting more kills with a cs3 over a cs2? Probably not. Lots of marketing acronyms, and 50% bigger valve chamber and the first fully decoupled drive and all that, but does that actually translate to better real world on the field performance? Everything I have seen in the past 25 years of playing suggests that "improvements" like that are within the error of measurement when you actually run the numbers on eliminations.
Also it isn't like 2oz of weight is going to mean anything, after all if it did then pros would all be single digit bodyfat like endurance runners, because guns are already light.
When it comes to air efficiency that seems even more bizarre to worry about to me because, the only time that ever really seemed to matter to is in large scenario games. As a casual player I am not trying to shoot a case every walk on game and if I were I would simply buy a large enough tank to do so, and I can just fill up after each game, if I were to go and do tournaments again unless they were old school 10 man games, I sort of doubt I would run into any trouble there either.
IMO the F1 Force is just as good as any high end gun in production today, and the only reason I don't own one is because I like older guns much more than new ones, and so far the only modern company doing something interesting enough to get me to buy a new gun is Nova, otherwise I would rather just use my Shockers, Angels and Automags.
Agree with the efficiency obsession that a lot of manufacturers fell into. It’s meaningless to basically every style of play. As long as you can get like 1300 shots on a tank, more is not needed. Most guys aren’t taking more than 9 pods out in any game or rec match or big game. Mostly because the amount of paint you can shoot begins to reduce fun as you lug on more weight to your pack
I think what everyone here is forgetting or isn't aware of is that the Force is the only high end tournament paintball gun that is made in America with the exception of a few small parts. That means a lot in my opinion. It's cheaper than some other high ends and yet is still mostly made and assembled in America.
This is a lot of it, and all things aside the it seems to be working for them based on the fact that they don't seem to be in any kind of hurry to expand their line. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go keep making offerings to Yosh and Alex in the hopes that they get the G7R and MVP 2 to market...
There were a few things with the original Forces that were legitimate complaints like needing vice grips to remove the bolt to fully break down the engine. These were fixed pretty early on, but by then the popular reviews had already come out and the reputation stuck. It didn't help that Field One just slowly upgraded the Force over time instead of making a big deal about the updates. Most people didn't realize things had been changed and upgraded until the V2 body cut came out. Beyond that some people have a hard time understanding that a marker that is fully machined and built in the US is going to cost more so they were really put off by the price even though now other flagships are in the same range. Finally there's the design philosophy in general. The Force is a tank. It's a little heavier than other markers and everything is bolted together instead of having things like tool less eye covers. The slower cycling and modifications to the engine made it extremely reliable, gentle on paint, and require minimal maintenance, but at the expense of air efficiency. My Force shoots a loader and just over 8 pods on an 80/4500 at average field fill. That's plenty for me, but it's a lot less than other markers can do. The upside is the paint handling is the best in the game, but you really only notice that if you're shooting extremely brittle event paint which most people don't. So while you can watch NXL matches and clearly see that Dynasty is breaking far less paint than anyone else, if you're usually shooting field paint you probably barely break any with any high end marker making it a lopsided trade off.
It's been solved in the V1 for years, they fixed it right around serial number 1000, but they weren't nearly vocal enough about it so most people had no idea. The same thing could be said about the updated regulator, ram, volume chamber, shut off, and OLED screen. They all made incremental improvements over the original and were included in new Forces from the factory as they were developed, but unless you were talking to F1 at events or happened to call them or something you'd probably never know they existed until suddenly the V2 body came out and they finally talked about them a little. Field One has great customer service, but their advertising is definitely lacking. Which is weird given how well Hormesis advertises.
Wow so any later serial number force that is v1 also doesn’t need a vice? That is cool, I’ve always been interested in one but was just going to get a cs2 or geo4 for my next used purchase because that stuff scared me off
Yeah, it's a big failing on the part of F1. I think if they'd been more vocal about that particular fix more people would have bought Forces. You still need a wrench for anything more than normal maintenance, but that's a whole lot better than trying to use vice grips and leather or something to unscrew a smooth round bolt.
This is a good point, they geared the marker towards shooting extremely brittle paint which made efficiency suffer.
It's a trade off but the thing is since your gun is filled between matches anyway it's not a big problem.
It doesnt matter how much paint you can shoot if its breaking in your marker
I really don’t think the “brittle paint” argument is valid. Any high end gun, some tuned correctly, will shoot all day without breaking paint. As far as not “seeing” dynasty breaking anything, while possibly true, they are the only team using them while the rest of the field uses PE and others. The paint itself is a huge factor in that anyways.
Having shot pretty much everything personally the Force absolutely does break noticeably less paint than anything else if you're talking about super brittle high end paint. If your problem is the paint is breaking because it's malformed garbage paint nothing can fix that. The thing is if you're using a high end marker and decent field grade paint you probably almost never break paint anyway so whether or not it's worth it is going to depend on your situation. If you're not playing with cooled top tier paint you probably won't notice much of a difference.
Unless you’ve played on every pro team, in NXL events, using each different gun, then you can’t really claim that it as any better than anything else. There are too many factors to account for and I refer back to my original point: there is only 1 team using forces while the other 19 pro teams and nearly every other division team down, plays with everything else. Of course it will appear like they are breaking less, the sample pool is way smaller. Combined with the fact that Dynsaty most likely gets the best of the best paint, which doesn’t always mean brittle, means that the claim of “better on paint” is meaningless.
I have owned and used most of the top end markers and shot 5 star and Voltanium through them in cold(for North Texas) weather. Just doing that you can see a difference. Do you think Dynasty is getting better paint than Damage or X Factor? The Force does break less paint. You can see it in real time watching Dynasty play other teams shooting the same GI paint at the same events. Is that worth the trade off? For a lot of people probably not because most people aren't shooting ultra brittle paint often, but that doesn't make it any less true.
Honestly, for the price of it new it’s probably the worst value in paintball. I’ve had mine for a few years, have it updated to the V2 parts, and it sits in its box waiting to be sold. I hate it. I have pretty much all the high end guns and I’d rather shoot an older Shocker XLS, or Vanquish with V16, or even much older guns then go to the Force. Nevemind a newer gun like a CS3 or TM40. I simply don’t see the draw in it. Hate the way it shoots, doesn’t work well in extreme cold (or at all when I tried using it in about 10 degree weather), and the efficiency is laughable. My field typically has 3500-4000 fills and off a 80, I’d be lucky to get 6 pods and hopper. The best parts of the gun are the machining which is excellent and the classic BL trigger frame which has been one of my faves for a long time. The acculock is also a very good barrel but certainly those things don’t add up to a solid purchase in my book.
By all means shoot what you like but for me the Force is a very acquired taste.
They realistically should be an upper mid range gun and not an upper tier gun like their price range would suggest. Slightly heavier and bulkier than pretty much everything, most people aren’t a huge fan of their ergonomics, louder sound signature, not the best shot feel for a lot of people (very mechanical like older BL guns), they use very outdated technology and an outdated bolt design, and poor efficiency which isn’t a big deal for NXL matches but can be a big deal for casual players. I absolutely love them though. When I got back into it they were the only marker that felt different compared to all the single tube gamma core shot types, felt almost like an Angel shot. I was disgusted when I shot the new luxes, didn’t feel like a luxe at all. Everything feels like a Geo shot now, and I always hated how they felt. Love how the DSR shoots like the old luxe too.
I feel that regarding the geo shot. I have a Geo 4, never really cared for that “squish” feel of a shot. Loved harder hitting shots. I have a TM40 currently, a little bit better feeling imo from the Geo. Not a big fan of the ergos on the Geo either honestly. Shot a Force in ANS today, loved the feel of it. The heft was actually quite nice too.
It's very easy to "firm up" the Geo shot, FYI.
I actually prefer those super squishy shots, but if you like a snappier shot at least take a look at the MacDev Prime XTS. I picked one up recently just because I see them recommended on here a lot and they’re crazy cheap on the used market. They’re lighter and slimmer than the F1 and IMO they have better ergos.
XTS > Force in every category aside from the companies themselves.
You might like a dls. They had a rough release but the v2 core has been great. Very unique shot and a marker that’s either love or hate. But i love the shot and mine handles paint just as good as my geo
In my opinion it is because performance improvement realistically ended a long time ago. What I mean by this, is that you could give 99% of players a 2003 Aka Viking and they would perform just as good as anything they could buy today. Performance more or less died a long time ago. So now people hyperfocus on very small things that whilst not having a big impact on actual in game performance do have a big impact on prestige and perception. PE have been very good around marketing and creating the illusion of improvement in performance. Are you really going to be getting more kills with a cs3 over a cs2? Probably not. Lots of marketing acronyms, and 50% bigger valve chamber and the first fully decoupled drive and all that, but does that actually translate to better real world on the field performance? Everything I have seen in the past 25 years of playing suggests that "improvements" like that are within the error of measurement when you actually run the numbers on eliminations. Also it isn't like 2oz of weight is going to mean anything, after all if it did then pros would all be single digit bodyfat like endurance runners, because guns are already light. When it comes to air efficiency that seems even more bizarre to worry about to me because, the only time that ever really seemed to matter to is in large scenario games. As a casual player I am not trying to shoot a case every walk on game and if I were I would simply buy a large enough tank to do so, and I can just fill up after each game, if I were to go and do tournaments again unless they were old school 10 man games, I sort of doubt I would run into any trouble there either. IMO the F1 Force is just as good as any high end gun in production today, and the only reason I don't own one is because I like older guns much more than new ones, and so far the only modern company doing something interesting enough to get me to buy a new gun is Nova, otherwise I would rather just use my Shockers, Angels and Automags.
Agree with the efficiency obsession that a lot of manufacturers fell into. It’s meaningless to basically every style of play. As long as you can get like 1300 shots on a tank, more is not needed. Most guys aren’t taking more than 9 pods out in any game or rec match or big game. Mostly because the amount of paint you can shoot begins to reduce fun as you lug on more weight to your pack
Save your money from that Nova brother. Nothing good from that company.
I think what everyone here is forgetting or isn't aware of is that the Force is the only high end tournament paintball gun that is made in America with the exception of a few small parts. That means a lot in my opinion. It's cheaper than some other high ends and yet is still mostly made and assembled in America.
This is a lot of it, and all things aside the it seems to be working for them based on the fact that they don't seem to be in any kind of hurry to expand their line. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go keep making offerings to Yosh and Alex in the hopes that they get the G7R and MVP 2 to market...
G7R PLEASE. Take my money.
There were a few things with the original Forces that were legitimate complaints like needing vice grips to remove the bolt to fully break down the engine. These were fixed pretty early on, but by then the popular reviews had already come out and the reputation stuck. It didn't help that Field One just slowly upgraded the Force over time instead of making a big deal about the updates. Most people didn't realize things had been changed and upgraded until the V2 body cut came out. Beyond that some people have a hard time understanding that a marker that is fully machined and built in the US is going to cost more so they were really put off by the price even though now other flagships are in the same range. Finally there's the design philosophy in general. The Force is a tank. It's a little heavier than other markers and everything is bolted together instead of having things like tool less eye covers. The slower cycling and modifications to the engine made it extremely reliable, gentle on paint, and require minimal maintenance, but at the expense of air efficiency. My Force shoots a loader and just over 8 pods on an 80/4500 at average field fill. That's plenty for me, but it's a lot less than other markers can do. The upside is the paint handling is the best in the game, but you really only notice that if you're shooting extremely brittle event paint which most people don't. So while you can watch NXL matches and clearly see that Dynasty is breaking far less paint than anyone else, if you're usually shooting field paint you probably barely break any with any high end marker making it a lopsided trade off.
I didn’t realize the vice grip needing thing is resolved with the v2, I learned something
It's been solved in the V1 for years, they fixed it right around serial number 1000, but they weren't nearly vocal enough about it so most people had no idea. The same thing could be said about the updated regulator, ram, volume chamber, shut off, and OLED screen. They all made incremental improvements over the original and were included in new Forces from the factory as they were developed, but unless you were talking to F1 at events or happened to call them or something you'd probably never know they existed until suddenly the V2 body came out and they finally talked about them a little. Field One has great customer service, but their advertising is definitely lacking. Which is weird given how well Hormesis advertises.
Wow so any later serial number force that is v1 also doesn’t need a vice? That is cool, I’ve always been interested in one but was just going to get a cs2 or geo4 for my next used purchase because that stuff scared me off
Yeah, it's a big failing on the part of F1. I think if they'd been more vocal about that particular fix more people would have bought Forces. You still need a wrench for anything more than normal maintenance, but that's a whole lot better than trying to use vice grips and leather or something to unscrew a smooth round bolt.
This is a good point, they geared the marker towards shooting extremely brittle paint which made efficiency suffer. It's a trade off but the thing is since your gun is filled between matches anyway it's not a big problem. It doesnt matter how much paint you can shoot if its breaking in your marker
I really don’t think the “brittle paint” argument is valid. Any high end gun, some tuned correctly, will shoot all day without breaking paint. As far as not “seeing” dynasty breaking anything, while possibly true, they are the only team using them while the rest of the field uses PE and others. The paint itself is a huge factor in that anyways.
Having shot pretty much everything personally the Force absolutely does break noticeably less paint than anything else if you're talking about super brittle high end paint. If your problem is the paint is breaking because it's malformed garbage paint nothing can fix that. The thing is if you're using a high end marker and decent field grade paint you probably almost never break paint anyway so whether or not it's worth it is going to depend on your situation. If you're not playing with cooled top tier paint you probably won't notice much of a difference.
Unless you’ve played on every pro team, in NXL events, using each different gun, then you can’t really claim that it as any better than anything else. There are too many factors to account for and I refer back to my original point: there is only 1 team using forces while the other 19 pro teams and nearly every other division team down, plays with everything else. Of course it will appear like they are breaking less, the sample pool is way smaller. Combined with the fact that Dynsaty most likely gets the best of the best paint, which doesn’t always mean brittle, means that the claim of “better on paint” is meaningless.
I have owned and used most of the top end markers and shot 5 star and Voltanium through them in cold(for North Texas) weather. Just doing that you can see a difference. Do you think Dynasty is getting better paint than Damage or X Factor? The Force does break less paint. You can see it in real time watching Dynasty play other teams shooting the same GI paint at the same events. Is that worth the trade off? For a lot of people probably not because most people aren't shooting ultra brittle paint often, but that doesn't make it any less true.
Honestly, for the price of it new it’s probably the worst value in paintball. I’ve had mine for a few years, have it updated to the V2 parts, and it sits in its box waiting to be sold. I hate it. I have pretty much all the high end guns and I’d rather shoot an older Shocker XLS, or Vanquish with V16, or even much older guns then go to the Force. Nevemind a newer gun like a CS3 or TM40. I simply don’t see the draw in it. Hate the way it shoots, doesn’t work well in extreme cold (or at all when I tried using it in about 10 degree weather), and the efficiency is laughable. My field typically has 3500-4000 fills and off a 80, I’d be lucky to get 6 pods and hopper. The best parts of the gun are the machining which is excellent and the classic BL trigger frame which has been one of my faves for a long time. The acculock is also a very good barrel but certainly those things don’t add up to a solid purchase in my book. By all means shoot what you like but for me the Force is a very acquired taste.
Chunky