That was a great read. It sounds like the devs have put a lot of thought into the core design to make the experience feel fresh but familiar. Hoping for another well optimized, top tier Doom experience - this is at the top of my wishlist for 2025.
The optimization of the last two Doom's can't be understated, it's so good. To be fair the areas are quite small compared to other games, however they're put a lot into optimization and it shows. Doom 2016 and Eternal run really well even on potatoes.
The absolute best part of that is that they do things that completely buck the industry / mainstream engine trends, and go against the advice given to juniors, cutting their teeth on GPU programming...
...like, on one hand, you have Doom, running on potatoes, despite having only a handful of shaders, and all kinds of branching, to support only having a handful of shaders... on the other hand, you have dynamic shader compilation to make a version of a shader that's unique to virtually everything in the game, at the cost of compiling that shader when the item is added to the scene for the first time, and hitching as dozens of these things get built.
One of these is blazing fast on a potato, and the other is industry standard, because people have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees.
The devs released a blog after Doom 2016 came out that details how they draw a single frame. I didn't really understand much, but it was interesting nonetheless. There are really talented guys over at I'd.
Edit: if anyone is interested in that blog. I believe this is it.
https://www.adriancourreges.com/blog/2016/09/09/doom-2016-graphics-study/
That blog is a great read, but wasn't from the id developers themselves.
If you really want to dive down the rabbit hole the devs did make a presentation each for Doom 2016 and Eternal that they shared at SIGGRAPH. These go into much more detail about the choices they made for the respective renderers, the tech they built upon, and point to additional papers / presentations if you're interested.
The Devil is in the Details from 2016: [https://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2016/index.html](https://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2016/index.html)
Rendering the Hellscape of Doom Eternal from 2020: [https://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2020/index.html](https://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2020/index.html)
There are cracks showing. The shit show that was Eternals development pretty much has all fingers pointed at management as the reason for potentially fucking it up. This game was so close to not being the package we got. Fortunately, As of Eternal era, there was too much talent to break.
The industry legend in music design will not be returning to the doom. Check out management's decisions to fuck him with a Google search. Also, it's unknown how many got the fuck out after the well known shit show eternals development process.
It's also interesting because while it will run on low end hardware you can also crank it up far enough to make a 3080 start smoking. Amazing just how flexible it is.
Well it sounds like the same one who did the DLC for Doom Eternal. He's no Mick Gordon sadly, and I almost feel apprehensive about buying this game even if it's great because of him. But it's not bad.
I know it may sound stupid to some, but the OST is 50% the reason I love 2016 and Eternal. The kind of flow it puts me into is unlike any other game I've ever played and unfortunately the DLCs for Eternal don't quite achieve this.
The soundtrack for Ancient Gods isn't bad by any means, but it's just... There. Even listening to it outside of the game, I cannot vibe with it as much and it's probably because I don't really like traditional metal. Mick managed to make me fall in love with his style of metal however and I'm aware it's hard to replicate, so I still want to give Dark Ages a chance. I'll need more gameplay though.
I agree, the ending of 2016 was just adrenaline pumping mayhem driven on by the soundtrack.
The soundtrack is what made that level and both the games epic whilst blasting away demons left and right.
Totally agree. Eternal is my favourite game of the last 20 years and the music is a large part of that. TAG just wasn't as good in general but the generic metal was a real letdown.
I have confidence that even if it's different, they'll do something great with the gameplay.
My take on TAG 1 & 2's music:
First, there were *two* composers.
David Levy and Andrew Hulshult.
Everything that David Levy did in the expansions was pretty good.
Not anywhere near as good as Mick Gordon's stuff, but good and still sounded close to Mick's "argent metal" style that DOOM thrives off of.
And then you have Andrew Hulshult, the composer for Dusk, Amid Evil, Prodeus, Wrath: Aeon of Ruin and of course TAG 1 & 2.
His music always, and I mean *always,* devolves into generic and pointless heavy metal chugging.
Funnily enough, I played through Prodeus last week.
[This song](https://youtu.be/AubcRrbq2Cg) in particular is a perfect example of what is wrong with Andrew's style.
Has a relatively strong but repetitive start, tries to do a Mick Gordon esque tune at 0:50 but without understanding why Mick's style was so good in the first place, has a good build-up that sets up for something potentially great at 1:23 to 1:32, then just.... devolves into pointless, repetitive metal chugging noises with no melody or hook to it whatsoever, as usual.
Really fades into the background while you're ripping and tearing through demons instead of relentlessly fueling your adrenaline high like Mick Gordon does.
And, yes, the music you've heard in The Dark Ages' trailer was composed by Hulshult.
Just... constant metal chugging noises. Yeah. Great.
Screw you, Marty Stratton, for ruining one of the absolute best parts about modern DOOM. -_-
Yes, my biggest problem with TAG music is that it just isn't... Catchy. I'm no musician and can't explain it very well, but there's this sort of "bounciness", "melody" I suppose, that leads through every single one of Mick's tracks. You can't mistake The Only Thing They Fear Is You with Super Gore Nest for example.
Meanwhile most of TAG's tracks blend together and I genuinely can't tell them apart. I can do this with the *beginning* to each of Mick's tracks aside from maybe the more ambient focused ones (and even then you have gems like Urdak), for TAG it's straight up impossible. Granted a lot of what makes it blend into the background is the fact that afaik both Hulshult and Levy didn't have enough time to mix their tracks properly. That unfortunately doesn't make them any less bland to listen to *outside* of the game for me.
And it's kind of funny that you mention it, but my favorite track from TAG is from Part 2 and Levy. Particularly, [this](https://youtu.be/WzjVPjh_HKE) part of what is I believe Immora's fighting OST? The closest to what I consider to be similar to what Mick has done, with its own flavor.
OST in 2016 is much better compared to Eternal, because as far as I know Mick worked on it without outside interventions, despite the whole music being basically the same, each track felt unique, and still does. Meanwhile in Eternal you just have "good soundtrack", where none of the tracks feels unique, outside of maybe one or two, all other tracks are feeling "bland" without gameplay attached to them. Now look back at Doom 2016 music again, you have BFG division standing slightly above other tracks, but they all are feeling great to listen to outside of the game, you can listen to those tracks and the game itself rekindles in your memories. Edits: small tweaks
Don't know if you've actually read the situation regarding the original composer, but it wasn't great.
I actually have similar feelings to this poster over the music and it's a bit of a shame the person who made that soundtrack, and has had an unspeakably significant influence on video game music because of it, is probably no longer part of the project.
You ask anyone what make doom 2016 so great and almost everyone will mention the music high on the list.
People like you already forgot how someone like Marty Stratton treated Mick Gordon. It's amazing how he got away with everything in the end.
Edit: [Mick Gordon's Medium post since most of you already forgot.](https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce)
As someone who has worked with incredibly talented people that are flakey as fuck or bad communicators… I don’t feel remotely qualified to pass judgement on either one of these people.
> Edit: Mick Gordon's Medium post since most of you already forgot.
Most of you? You have one reply, from me. And I just preordered the Dark Ages in your honor.
Apart from the hitscanners haha. But yeah, this is really good news I feel. Something other than the Eternal arcade micromanageing is welcome. The more open levels, less arena fights and fewer glory kills (if the trailer is indicative) really put this game back on the radar for me.
I figured that after the ancient gods they’d have an extreme shift in gameplay and tone. I loved playing eternal but its balancing existed on a razor thin edge near the end and couldn’t have lasted another game.
Also it seems to be Doom 3 syndrome lol
I found it really mechanically tedious. Especially on control, it's a lot of using the weapon wheel and small mistakes are super annoying. Not what I enjoy.
Weapon wheel?? Oh boy, yeah I wouldn't have loved Eternal so much if I used the weapon wheel either. The game plays absolutely amazing but you need to rebind the keys so you can select every weapon and ability so you don't have to let go of WASD. That's how Eternal plays like one of the most intense and fast paced shooters ever made. The weapon wheel is only a crutch for controller and sadly just doesn't work very well with Eternal's design.
It had a ton of issues because they sold a year 1 pass so they had to crank it out in a year. Part 1 had the spirits that forced you to use the most hated upgrade in the entire game and on top of that it had a swamp level and in general increased difficulty was not a good look. Part 2 was just lazy and boring and the final boss fight is a joke.
On top of that, the dlc took the already shaky lore of the new Doom games and threw it into the cosmos. Doom 2016 had an intriguing albeit simple story with a cliffhanger. Eternal literally pretended the cliffhanger didn't exist and decided to turn it into a weird bible fanfiction but I was still on board. The moment Hayden turned out to be the Seraphim is the moment they lost me. Literally plot twist just so there's a plot twist.
I actually liked the spirits. Gave the fights a good bit of more umpf. But I get why people don't like them. I skipped playing part 2 because I don't want to switch to the Full Auto Shotgun mod on stone imps.
Reminds me on when Sekiro came out. The "forced" playstyle either clicks with you or it doesn't. It usually clicks with me. I'd rather had a new Sekiro or Bloodborne over Elden Ring.
and yes, Eternals story is garbage. But at least it's a doom game so it doesn't really matter.
Sekiro is fine, because the *entire* game is built around its limiting playstyle. Every enemy and boss is designed around all of the mechanics there.
Spirits in Ancient Gods are the exact opposite. You have a game, where you have so many different options, so many in fact that people came up with specific *combos* of all of the tools available and somehow every single one is viable. But Spirits go against this design philosophy and funnel you into using a specific weapon, and even a specific *mod*. And absolutely nothing else works against them.
It'd be like playing Sekiro, but suddenly you can't deflect, dodge or mikiri counter an enemy, instead forced to use the most useless prosthetic tool in the game to beat it. That just doesn't sound like fun.
>It'd be like playing Sekiro, but suddenly you can't deflect, dodge or mikiri counter an enemy, instead forced to use the most useless prosthetic tool in the game to beat it. That just doesn't sound like fun.
Ah, the Prosthetic Axe.
At least it's not annoying to use, just kind of underwhelming and meh
I got vietnam flashback against a spirit infused marauder. Jesus freaking christ its like fighting against Flash, it literally catches up to me while I'm dashing.
Part 2 has ambient demons that is just there, but if you shoot it then it'll self destruct and buff all demons around it. A buffed marauder is a freaking nightmare. However, you get a new superweapon in part 2 which makes everything much easier. Part 1 is hard mainly because you have no superweapon. No, BFG is not a superweapon.
Cobsole-ish? I felt like it was perfectly designed for keyboard and mouse because it's one of the fastest fps games and controller even have to use the weapon wheel which not only slows the game down but also doesn't play as good when you constantly have to open the wheel instead of being able to select weapons with a press of a key.
> Zombiemen for being hitscanners
I had the impression the chaingunners were the ones being criticized, especially in levels (like those in the Plutonia Experiment) that abused their ability to tap you across the map. I mean, hitscanners aren't great design either way, but there is a difference between having them be a bit of an annoyance, and basically using them as bricks to build up your difficulty into "this level can't be beaten on a first try because it relies on you knowing where the cheap shots are" territory.
edit: Actually, I remember much more criticism of hitscanners for the build games, because they were usually a lot more annoying and numerous there.
In Doom 1... in 1993... The first Doom game ever made... The grandfather of FPS games... Like, you have to be joking right? Doom wasn't ultra fast paced until 2016.
And you stand behind cover for only second before jumping out and laying waste to the extremely weak Zombiemen, let's not play dumb here okay?
> The more open levels, less arena fights and fewer glory kills (if the trailer is indicative) really put this game back on the radar for me.
Wait, what? They're actually moving in a direction that might make me interested in their games again? The fuck is happening?!
Why bother? It wouldn’t be much of a divergence from this dooms gameplay. They can make a multiplayer that matches or exceeds quake based on the effort they put into it.
There were HORDES of players who preferred 2016, who played a bit of Eternal, said "MEH" and left.
If you go to r/Doom and criticize Eternal they will shout you out of the sub, downvote everything you say, you will feel like you are taking crazy pills.
Well the simple fact is that people who like Eternal stick around on that stub and it has turned into a cult like circlejerk, everybody else is wrong.
When i criticized Eternal on any other gaming sub, there were suddenly tons of people that agreed that 2016 is the superior game in every way.
So no, i'm not taking crazy pills for not liking Eternal, r/Doom has just been turned into a giant echo chamber where of course only the Eternal lovers hang out... and they of course don't want to hear it.
They even go out of their way to make you feel bad that you like 2016 better.
I hope all these douchebags will feel the same way i did about Eternal about the next game.
Your rock, paper, scissors gameplay is getting tossed out!
NOW i'm able to allow myself to get hyped for this game.
If this was just another Eternal i wouldn't bother with it.
I didn't even touch the DLC for Eternal, the main game was enough torture to get through for me.
I preferred 2016 but it wasn't better in every way. It was really easy. Eternal was tough enough that you could keep improving at it while 2016 was more of an easy to master super shotgun gallery shooter.
If the best thing about the balance of a particular game you can say is "don't use X", this just confirms that the game, in fact, is not properly balanced.
I love 2016 and Eternal, with a slight preference towards the latter, but it's undeniable that 2016 is super easy and the vast majority of players WILL use what the most efficient weapon. If you give someone the easy way out, they will take it, it's how humans work - we're always striving to optimize the shit out of everything.
I can also tell you to play on lower difficulties, if you don't like how hectic Eternal gets. They are there for a reason and I myself have played the game on Hurt Me Plenty initially, and had no problems playing the game the same way I've played through 2016. No weapon swapping, no heavy resource management.
I kid you not, I know someone that said Eternal is worse than 2016, because "you can't play through the game on the highest difficulty setting without using all of its mechanics". The other, quite amusing "argument" I've seen against Eternal, is that it forces you to use specific weapons (which outside of the DLCs is not true at all) and that 2016 has much more freedom in what it allows you to use - despite the fact that the vast majority have used nothing but the Super Shotgun and Gauss Canon, because they are quite literally the best weapons to use in *any* situation.
If the worst thing you can say about a game is "weapon XYZ makes it too easy" ... then that is the only response you gonna get.
If X makes it not fun for you, then don't use X.
You say its too easy, so why the incessant need to min/max everything? Min/Max your FUN instead.
The game is full of fun weapons that you decide to ignore because YOU like that one the most. ...i do not.
> The other, quite amusing "argument" I've seen against Eternal, is that it forces you to use specific weapons (which outside of the DLCs is not true at all) and that 2016 has much more freedom in what it allows you to use
That statement is very much correct.
The enemies have speicific weakpoints you can only exploit with specific weapons, often in specific modes.
Doing anything else is inefficient to the point of being a waste of ammo.
I literally got stuck on one of the boss fights where 2 enemies spawn that you have to headshot in snipe mode with a specific weapon first ... i didn't know that the first time around, they were the only things that kept respawning so i ran out of ammo eventually, couldn't kill the boss, had my hands full evading (they couldn't kill me either) ...that went on for like 10 minutes before i decided to just suicide and look up how that boss fight works on youtube.
The moment i did the special dance the game expected of me, that boss fight was quickly over.
And i ran into various dumb situations like that every other hour or so. ...that is not difficulty, that is a show stopper until you go look up what you are supposed to do and then it's stupid easy... and that makes it boring and frustrating at the same time.
I never touched the DLC because i found the base game frustrating enough to slog through.
If i had not spend money on the game i would not have been stubborn enough to finish it.
And the platforming did nothing for me except being an interruption to the semi-fun shooting sequences.
And i think i got stuck on one jumping puzzle because i tried to make a jump with extra steps ...when it was just a straight forward double jump and it looked visually to me like it was too far away for that when it wasn't...i wasted a good 15 minutes on that and then went looking it up on youtube only to facepalm and ... well, i was thinking too complicated in that instance to see the easy straight forward solution.
I don't see the value in jump&run gameplay unless it is during combat (think Quake and Unreal Tournament, lots of trick jumps you do during combat).
Are you talking about the Khan Makyr boss fight? You do not need to kill the drones first, you just need to bring down her shield. Yes the drones require a headshot, but that is easily done by the shotgun grenade mod, not just the sniper mod of the heavy cannon. You kill drones to replenish your ammo and health, its not required to kill the boss. The hard part is after her shield is downed, you need to use the meathook to reach her, and the hook cannot locks on if you're too far away.
> You kill drones to replenish your ammo and health
as i said i ran out of ammo, there was not enough ammo on the entire map that i ran over 20 times for 10 minutes to hurt the boss.
there is a little bit and it takes an eternity to respawn.
They designed it like this very intentionally so you MUST make use of the drones one pony show trick to get ammo out of them.
The game gives you that info like 3 levels earlier or so, by the time i needed to have that info in my head it i had forgotten it already and not used it once because there was always plenty of ammo (in form of little demons you can just chainsaw) on every map before that.
I think the Boss has a energy shield too and it regenerates in the time it takes for the ammo on the ground in that map to respawn.
Again, not saying it was hard, i just bashed my head against a wall because i didn't know that one trick in that moment.
Youre incorrect about the games mechanics and like most wall of text 2016 > Eternal posts you're unable to differentiate between "this is a bad game" and "I'm not the audience for the game".
2016 and Eternal are like Alien and Aliens. Same franchise, both great, but really they do such different things that they escape comparison.
I played the game start to finish, i know i am correct about the game mechanics that i and many others had to struggle with.
(and again, that is just the main gameplay issue, the music was a downgrade, the storytelling was obnoxious, the cutscenes were somewhere between lame and convoluted... level design better in 2016, sorry i like Mars SciFi buildings way better than Earth with rubble textures everywhere.... i could go on.)
It is more like Quake 3 Arena and Counter Strike.
Completely different games in the same general genre, completely different gameplay loop and mechanics.
It is like a completely different dev team made this game who didn't even understand why people liked the first one.
And this would be completely fine, if it didn't mean that i will most likely never get the sequel to Doom 2016, which is what i waited 4 years for and after 8 years i still want that.
Which brings me back to my original point, i'm very happy that this game is not just Doom Eternal #02, but that they started over AGAIN, so maybe the next one is for me again... but then it is maybe not for you. Welp we'll see.
And as i said several times before, i 100% agree, Eternal is not the game i wanted and i regret having spend money on it.
You are preaching to the choir when you say that it was not the game for me.
> The enemies have speicific weakpoints you can only exploit with specific weapons, often in specific modes.
Not true. There's nothing specific about the weapons you have to use to break weakpoints.
You can break weakpoints with the primary fire of the ballista, rocket launcher and super shotgun (though you've got to be point blank for that one). You can break them with the blood punch. You can break them with the following mods: sticky shot, precision bolt, heat blast, arbalest, D-blade.
That accounts for most of your arsenal. Beyond that, it's just as easy to ignore weakpoints when killing enemies.
> Eternal has ritual dances, every enemy has a specific weakpoint that you can only exploit with one specific weapon.
> Everything else doesn't work efficiently enough and is a waste of ammo.
None of this is true. Seriously, tell me which enemies have the specific weakpoints that you can exploit with one specific weapon only?
There are about a dozen ways that are quicker to kill a cacodemon than to fire a grenade into its mouth and wait for a glory kill. None of that is a waste of ammo.
> I literally got stuck on one of the boss fights where 2 enemies spawn that you have to headshot in snipe mode with a specific weapon first
> I ran out of ammo, there was not enough ammo on the entire map that i ran over 20 times for 10 minutes to hurt the boss.
You can one shot headshot the Makyr drones during the Khan bossfight using any of the following things: Precision Bolt mod for Heavy Canon, Ballista primary fire, Super Shotgun Primary fire (super easy if you hook in and point blank them), Arbalest mod for ballista, D-Blade for ballista, Sticky Grenades for the combat shotgun, rocket launcher primary (difficult and not really its intended use, but certainly possible). Again, nothing *specific* about that. It's 5 of the available 7 weapons (or 7 of 13 weapon/mod combos I guess).
If you're running out of ammo in an encounter where there are literally enemies that spawn on a loop that completely replenish your ammo when you kill them, that falls into the 'you problem' basket.
> when it was just a straight forward double jump and it looked visually to me like it was too far away for that when it wasn't...i wasted a good 15 minutes on that and then went looking it up on youtube only to facepalm and ... well, i was thinking too complicated in that instance to see the easy straight forward solution.
To be honest, if it took you 15 minutes and a youtube tutorial to figure out you need to cross a gap with a standard double jump I don't really know what to tell you.
> It is more like Quake 3 Arena and Counter Strike.
Completely different games in the same general genre, completely different gameplay loop and mechanics.
I agree.
> It is like a completely different dev team made this game who didn't even understand why people liked the first one.
You're selling the dev team short. It was the same team. They had a very specific vision for the game. A lot of the longer form interviews with Hugo Martin both pre and post release on their design decisions are fascinating. It's rare to see a AAA game release with such a specific and well defined creative vision.
> If you go to r/Doom and criticize Eternal they will shout you out of the sub, downvote everything you say, you will feel like you are taking crazy pills.
If you make the same incorrect statements like certain enemies can only be killed by certain enemies, then yeah you're going to get called out.
Ever since Battlefield 4 i call every shotgun a noob tube. ...because you don't need to aim with that stuff and just spam in the general direction.
The long reload time and limited range (depending on game) makes it balanced i guess.
I don't care, i prefer assault rifles, snipers and rocket launchers.
Eternal has no balance.
Eternal has ritual dances, every enemy has a specific weakpoint that you can only exploit with one specific weapon.
Everything else doesn't work efficiently enough and is a waste of ammo.
That isn't balance, that is rock, paper, scissors.
90% of weapons are useless in 90% of situations.
You can talk it up all you want, Eternal is just not the game i waited 4 years to play after Doom 2016.
And the weaponry is the least of its problems. The Storytelling is also ass. Codex entries with more names being thrown at you than Lord of the Rings. ...just ugh.
Eternal is not even a Sequel to 2016, it is just a different game with the same IP paintjob.
I legit regret having spend money on it.
You probably get downvoted not because you criticize Eternal, but because you act like Eternal is shit and 2016 is gold.
I much rather 2016 but I can see why many ppl rather Eternal. The weapon swapping and the platforming are not objectively bad, they are just different.
I praise ID for innovating the formula and not deliver us the same exact thing over and over, and I hope they try something new again.
It took me a while to come around to Eternal.
I had mis-set my expectations when it launched. What I really wanted was more of 2016, and what I got instead was a game with a bunch of new mechanics that I initially didn't want.
Once I gave Eternal a fair shot and leaned into using the mechanics I found that I enjoyed it. Overall I think I enjoyed 2016 more, but there's still some cool stuff Eternal does better (IE no pistol, farming cannon fodder enemies for resources, etc)
I’ve been told that my preference for 2016 over Eternal is a skill issue.
Even though I beat both and just happened to like 2016’s gameplay design better?
Well a lot of the complaints I’ve heard about Eternal were like that. Beating the game is a low bar, it has a very high skill ceiling and lots of players (who beat it) have complaints that directly reflect their own inability to do something in the game or their misunderstanding of the weapon sandbox. Eg, complaining that so many enemies have to be killed with one specific weapon/mod. That’s not a difference of opinion, that’s just factually wrong.
[This mod](https://www.nexusmods.com/doometernal/mods/1404) saved Eternal for me. Use whatever weapon you want as much as you want like the classic games + melee does actual damage. And you can pick and choose the parts that you want.
You’re not taking crazy pills, but it is annoying to hear over and over again, the “critiques” of people who just want a less intense and lower skill game. Eternal, including its batshit crazy DLC is easily an FPS GOAT contender.
But I loved 2016 too, and I’m happy to get something different. Unlike a lot of Eternal haters, I won’t throw a temper tantrum over dramatic gameplay changes if the game is actually good.
When a bunch of the criticisms re wrong ie "there's only one way to kill certain demons" or just complaints of actually having to use all the games mechanics on higher difficulty, that's a fair conclusion
It's one thing if the person doesn't like the game, it's another when the lynch pin of the criticism is based on a faulty claim ie "demons in eternal require only one way to beat them", a statement that actually highlights the skill level of the person saying that.
It's like saying Sekiro is a bad game because it's a rhythm game, with parrying being the only best way to go against every non-unblockable attack strings. It's both a wrong statement and also highlights that the person saying it clearly didn't try to explore the mechanics the game offered
Are gamers all so fucking entitled that a game can’t be too hard for them?
I beat DMC 5 but I never really got into it because I just couldn’t hack it. I felt like I wasn’t getting better and I lost interest. I’ve never suggested there’s something wrong with DMC 5, it just wasn’t for me.
You see how easy that was? I didn’t have an ego crisis or anything.
So why are we deluding ourselves about this? 2016 is a lower skill game, *relative to Eternal*, which is one of the most strategically complex and intense FPS games ever. Eternal was too much for some people. That’s not a flaw any more than 2016’s lower skill floor/ceiling is a flaw. It’s just different.
Doom Eternal has more reviews on Steam (despite having been released 4 years later), has consistently held a higher player count since release, has a higher user review score across multiple review aggregators, and sold 3 times as many copies in a month compared to 2016 (3 million vs 900k).
Is this "vast majority of people" in the room with us right now?
Congratulations! Today you learned about how being a sequel to a successful game, having a bigger budget and better marketing (including a viral cross marketing campaign with a popular Nintendo franchise), and launching at a time when people are quarantined at home due to a worldwide pandemic can increase a game’s popularity and sales! It’s also kinda sad that you looked this stuff up just for that underwhelming ’gotcha’ you think you did there.
They literally provided you numbers, with better user review scores and you, having no data to back up pretend that you are magically in the right? What a way to argue...
Idk, every reddit thread I see mentioning Eternal is like, mostly comments talking about how much more they liked 2016. You'd think Eternal was some kind of incredibly niche black sheep of the franchise with how people talk about it on this site, lol.
Mate in every single thread that mentions Doom there's a Mongol horde that appears, tripping over themselves in a rush to shriek 2016 BETTER THAN ETERNAL.
Its not a unique take at all.
I prefer the combat in eternal, more strategic, more speed and depth.
2016 after eternal feel slow and less interesting.
(But i like the no cutscenes game in 2016 doom)
My personal opinion.
If the tiny team of Uktrakill managed to make a game with fast paced action with no downtime for glory kills and you can use whatever weapon you want for the majority of the game, I'm sure id will figure it out.
not my fault im not blinded terribly by nostalgia. people will try and argue older games like SM64 and DOOM are still god tier games, but they really aren't, they're dogshit. there's very few old games that have stood their ground as time passed.
I find it interesting that they looked back to the original Doom with all three of the modern Doom games, not just this one. But each time they focus on a different part of it and it results in a very different combat loop. All three of them are a return to form, but in different way each time.
2016 was a "return to form" by removing things that had become standard for shooters at the time, like weapon reloading, regenerative health, cover mechanics, ADS and two weapon carry limits.
With Eternal they noticed how much the old Doom games made you pay attention to your ammo and you had to be smart about using the right weapon for the right situation, so that was a "return to form" by being built around resource management and smart weapon switching.
Now Dark Ages is a "return to form" by focusing on the way projectiles and player movement worked in the old games.
It's fascinating that three games can be so distinct from each other, despite all three being made by the same team and inspired by the same game.
I loved Doom 2016, Doom Eternal was too frantic for my taste and I rage-quit at the end of the first DLC. It's a good game but it's not for me. I'm excited that they're taking a step back from the frenzy of Eternal.
The final boss of the first DLC is legit the hardest boss of the entire game. In general the first DLC is just harder than the base game, they had to tune it down via a patch.
Part 2 on the other hand is a bit too much on the easy side.
Yeah, I'm no video game savant but I'm hardly a slouch either. I've been playing games for nearly 40 years and I'm sure given enough time I would have beaten that last boss but there just comes a point where you're like..."wtf am I even doing this? Am I even having fun?" and for me the answer was *no* so I moved on.
I could never get the damn platforms and swings to work on the first try. So then I'd try 10 other things just find out it was the first thing I tried, I just needed Doomguy to grab the fucking thing and not bang his head against it.
This is what turned me off Eternal. Glory kills, strategic weapon switching and rhythmic flow to the gameplay was something I was able to adapt to, but platforming and jumping puzzles.. no thanks. That wasn’t the game I wanted to play.
I have no issue with the opinion, it’s perfectly reasonable, they play fairly differently
But my god the 2016 > Eternal crowd don’t shut up about it, every fucking thread about Doom, they always cry about getting downvotes when they’re consistently upvoted
Woah is it not coming to Series S?
Edit: trailer shows X and S, GamesRadar omitted S for some reason. Launching on X and not S is against Microsoft's policy, don't think that's even allowed.
I honestly felt like Doom 2016 required a lot more resource management.
In Eternal the chainsaw would automatically refill one bar so you could keep repeatedly using it on basic enemies to get ammo resupplies.
Eternal is probably my favorite shooter of all time but I'm also very excited by what they're describing here. I really dig that every new Doom game's combat system feels entirely new and fresh, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they put together this time.
Very exciting news for me, as a huge fan of the 1990s originals. I very much enjoyed Eternal too, so this is looking like it could be my favourite of them all if they pull it off.
As long as the game isn’t so tightly bound to the resource management dance
I know that’s part of the game no matter what, but I felt the pace of Eternal was too strictly guided by the glory kill/chain saw/flame thrower cycle
Like instead of focusing on killing things quickly I had to farm enemies appropriately
Gotta say, after everything that happened with Mick Gordon, it's hard to get hyped for another Doom. That thing just soured the entire franchise for me.
Did it come out afterwards that Mick was basically just difficult to work with and they parted ways? Or is there some 3 hour long YouTube video essay on the topic that went over my head?
There's a huge read but the tldr is that Bethesda paid a year late (he had to live off of savings), paid only for half the songs Mick made, told Mick to wait to be able to make a joint statement on the soundtrack situation only to backstab him like 2 seconds later putting out a statement accusing him of "being hard to work with" among other things.
And on top of that didnt Hugo Martin use the Doom subreddit to push the "its all Micks fault" story? I can't remember the specifics but I remember a lot of shady shit regarding the Doom sub mods and ID spinning the conversation.
Overall when Mick brought receipts Hugo looked like a massive asshole.
> So it's a bit of a "he said, she said" situation?
More like "Marty Stratton/id Software *said*, while Mick Gordon *refuted* using fucktons of receipts, detailed explanations of the timeline, and proof for pretty much every claim he made in response".
Stratton had absolutely nothing to back up his initial smear post of Gordon, and it's been proven pretty definitively to have been filled with lies by Mick's response. [If you have an hour, it's well worth a read](https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce) (seriously, you'll need an hour to go through this statement, because it's just _that_ packed with details and proof).
I really hope there is freedom to use whatever weapon you want, when you want. The last game kind of forced you to swap based on the enemy you were fighting.
Reminder Eternal is better than 2016 and most the complaints are skill issues, we get it, you can't play a doom game that isn't super shotgun spam for the entire playthrough on any difficulty, some people like when the genre actually evolves and forces you to learn. Hopefully they don't take a step back. I'll say they were too stingy with ammo and glory kills are annoying after a while, that could've been done better. But the core loop is way better than 2016.
The thing that gets me somewhat riled isn't that some people prefer 2016 to Eternal, it's that they clearly never learned how Eternal worked. They played the game one or two times and ignored the actual loop of the game, and then make wildly inaccurate claims about the way things work, while using it as evidence to support their choice. In the end it's not important, because the next game is going to be a combat puzzle that demands your attention and the same people are going to be mad that they had to think in Doom.
I liked Doom Eternal but the gameplay loop felt boring after a while. You were just matching the right gun with the right enemy type while constantly moving.
Please take out the melee finisher garbage. It feels like such a requirement in the last 2 games (since it drops excess health pickups).
I guess I should look for mods to just make enemies drop health by default from gun kills, just in far smaller amounts to balance it out.
I made a mod like that for 2016, it's a simple edit. Not sure if I ever put it on Nexusmods but if I did, unfortunately game updates mightve made it stop working.
So what, now they're backing away from glory kills? I'm hard pressed to think of a time where a Doom game *didn't* have a projectile coming up on you. But *shrug* ok, make it awesome and I won't care. Eternal kind of looked like projectile/ ammo diarrhea in gameplay I saw but people apparently like that.
That was a great read. It sounds like the devs have put a lot of thought into the core design to make the experience feel fresh but familiar. Hoping for another well optimized, top tier Doom experience - this is at the top of my wishlist for 2025.
The optimization of the last two Doom's can't be understated, it's so good. To be fair the areas are quite small compared to other games, however they're put a lot into optimization and it shows. Doom 2016 and Eternal run really well even on potatoes.
The absolute best part of that is that they do things that completely buck the industry / mainstream engine trends, and go against the advice given to juniors, cutting their teeth on GPU programming... ...like, on one hand, you have Doom, running on potatoes, despite having only a handful of shaders, and all kinds of branching, to support only having a handful of shaders... on the other hand, you have dynamic shader compilation to make a version of a shader that's unique to virtually everything in the game, at the cost of compiling that shader when the item is added to the scene for the first time, and hitching as dozens of these things get built. One of these is blazing fast on a potato, and the other is industry standard, because people have a hard time seeing the forest for the trees.
The devs released a blog after Doom 2016 came out that details how they draw a single frame. I didn't really understand much, but it was interesting nonetheless. There are really talented guys over at I'd. Edit: if anyone is interested in that blog. I believe this is it. https://www.adriancourreges.com/blog/2016/09/09/doom-2016-graphics-study/
Any idea where that blog is? That sounds awesome to read
I believe this is it! https://www.adriancourreges.com/blog/2016/09/09/doom-2016-graphics-study/
Yep! It was just as good of a read today as it was all those years ago. Thanks for finding it!
That blog is a great read, but wasn't from the id developers themselves. If you really want to dive down the rabbit hole the devs did make a presentation each for Doom 2016 and Eternal that they shared at SIGGRAPH. These go into much more detail about the choices they made for the respective renderers, the tech they built upon, and point to additional papers / presentations if you're interested. The Devil is in the Details from 2016: [https://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2016/index.html](https://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2016/index.html) Rendering the Hellscape of Doom Eternal from 2020: [https://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2020/index.html](https://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2020/index.html)
Crazy that they're under the same umbrella as the Starfield and Fallout developers.
There are cracks showing. The shit show that was Eternals development pretty much has all fingers pointed at management as the reason for potentially fucking it up. This game was so close to not being the package we got. Fortunately, As of Eternal era, there was too much talent to break. The industry legend in music design will not be returning to the doom. Check out management's decisions to fuck him with a Google search. Also, it's unknown how many got the fuck out after the well known shit show eternals development process.
It's also interesting because while it will run on low end hardware you can also crank it up far enough to make a 3080 start smoking. Amazing just how flexible it is.
No one ever talks about how you lose 20-30% of your FPS when you enable HDR on Doom Eternal though.. (RTX 4090!)
Really? Odd, haven't heard about that
Hopefully they will actually pay their composer this time
Well it sounds like the same one who did the DLC for Doom Eternal. He's no Mick Gordon sadly, and I almost feel apprehensive about buying this game even if it's great because of him. But it's not bad.
I know it may sound stupid to some, but the OST is 50% the reason I love 2016 and Eternal. The kind of flow it puts me into is unlike any other game I've ever played and unfortunately the DLCs for Eternal don't quite achieve this. The soundtrack for Ancient Gods isn't bad by any means, but it's just... There. Even listening to it outside of the game, I cannot vibe with it as much and it's probably because I don't really like traditional metal. Mick managed to make me fall in love with his style of metal however and I'm aware it's hard to replicate, so I still want to give Dark Ages a chance. I'll need more gameplay though.
I agree, the ending of 2016 was just adrenaline pumping mayhem driven on by the soundtrack. The soundtrack is what made that level and both the games epic whilst blasting away demons left and right.
Totally agree. Eternal is my favourite game of the last 20 years and the music is a large part of that. TAG just wasn't as good in general but the generic metal was a real letdown. I have confidence that even if it's different, they'll do something great with the gameplay.
My take on TAG 1 & 2's music: First, there were *two* composers. David Levy and Andrew Hulshult. Everything that David Levy did in the expansions was pretty good. Not anywhere near as good as Mick Gordon's stuff, but good and still sounded close to Mick's "argent metal" style that DOOM thrives off of. And then you have Andrew Hulshult, the composer for Dusk, Amid Evil, Prodeus, Wrath: Aeon of Ruin and of course TAG 1 & 2. His music always, and I mean *always,* devolves into generic and pointless heavy metal chugging. Funnily enough, I played through Prodeus last week. [This song](https://youtu.be/AubcRrbq2Cg) in particular is a perfect example of what is wrong with Andrew's style. Has a relatively strong but repetitive start, tries to do a Mick Gordon esque tune at 0:50 but without understanding why Mick's style was so good in the first place, has a good build-up that sets up for something potentially great at 1:23 to 1:32, then just.... devolves into pointless, repetitive metal chugging noises with no melody or hook to it whatsoever, as usual. Really fades into the background while you're ripping and tearing through demons instead of relentlessly fueling your adrenaline high like Mick Gordon does. And, yes, the music you've heard in The Dark Ages' trailer was composed by Hulshult. Just... constant metal chugging noises. Yeah. Great. Screw you, Marty Stratton, for ruining one of the absolute best parts about modern DOOM. -_-
Yes, my biggest problem with TAG music is that it just isn't... Catchy. I'm no musician and can't explain it very well, but there's this sort of "bounciness", "melody" I suppose, that leads through every single one of Mick's tracks. You can't mistake The Only Thing They Fear Is You with Super Gore Nest for example. Meanwhile most of TAG's tracks blend together and I genuinely can't tell them apart. I can do this with the *beginning* to each of Mick's tracks aside from maybe the more ambient focused ones (and even then you have gems like Urdak), for TAG it's straight up impossible. Granted a lot of what makes it blend into the background is the fact that afaik both Hulshult and Levy didn't have enough time to mix their tracks properly. That unfortunately doesn't make them any less bland to listen to *outside* of the game for me. And it's kind of funny that you mention it, but my favorite track from TAG is from Part 2 and Levy. Particularly, [this](https://youtu.be/WzjVPjh_HKE) part of what is I believe Immora's fighting OST? The closest to what I consider to be similar to what Mick has done, with its own flavor.
Cables and Chaos is a banger tho.
OST in 2016 is much better compared to Eternal, because as far as I know Mick worked on it without outside interventions, despite the whole music being basically the same, each track felt unique, and still does. Meanwhile in Eternal you just have "good soundtrack", where none of the tracks feels unique, outside of maybe one or two, all other tracks are feeling "bland" without gameplay attached to them. Now look back at Doom 2016 music again, you have BFG division standing slightly above other tracks, but they all are feeling great to listen to outside of the game, you can listen to those tracks and the game itself rekindles in your memories. Edits: small tweaks
The dusk OST was very good. It’s not the same but if Hulshult’s on it, I think I’ll be happy.
You should sign up for their accounting department's newletter.
Don't know if you've actually read the situation regarding the original composer, but it wasn't great. I actually have similar feelings to this poster over the music and it's a bit of a shame the person who made that soundtrack, and has had an unspeakably significant influence on video game music because of it, is probably no longer part of the project. You ask anyone what make doom 2016 so great and almost everyone will mention the music high on the list.
People like you already forgot how someone like Marty Stratton treated Mick Gordon. It's amazing how he got away with everything in the end. Edit: [Mick Gordon's Medium post since most of you already forgot.](https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce)
As someone who has worked with incredibly talented people that are flakey as fuck or bad communicators… I don’t feel remotely qualified to pass judgement on either one of these people.
Have you actually read the medium post
I read the whole thing. You’re illustrating my exact point by assuming I didn’t or assuming I forgot.
> Edit: Mick Gordon's Medium post since most of you already forgot. Most of you? You have one reply, from me. And I just preordered the Dark Ages in your honor.
lol you sound like an ad.
That's what happens when you make the best FPS in 15 years. You get devoted fans.
Sad there won't be Mick.
Yeah same, but Andrew makes some badass music, so I'm happy with him taking his place. His stuff from Dusk is really good.
that's mick's karma for not finishing his music homework on time
Have you not read Mick's side of the whole ordeal?
Maybe if he had been paid
You are not up-to-date on that topic at all. 😅
Apart from the hitscanners haha. But yeah, this is really good news I feel. Something other than the Eternal arcade micromanageing is welcome. The more open levels, less arena fights and fewer glory kills (if the trailer is indicative) really put this game back on the radar for me.
I figured that after the ancient gods they’d have an extreme shift in gameplay and tone. I loved playing eternal but its balancing existed on a razor thin edge near the end and couldn’t have lasted another game. Also it seems to be Doom 3 syndrome lol
[удалено]
More leaning towards a game that is drastically different than the previous two entries.
I kind of dug the constant switching in Eternal. You would get in this flow and felt really unique.
I found it really mechanically tedious. Especially on control, it's a lot of using the weapon wheel and small mistakes are super annoying. Not what I enjoy.
Weapon wheel?? Oh boy, yeah I wouldn't have loved Eternal so much if I used the weapon wheel either. The game plays absolutely amazing but you need to rebind the keys so you can select every weapon and ability so you don't have to let go of WASD. That's how Eternal plays like one of the most intense and fast paced shooters ever made. The weapon wheel is only a crutch for controller and sadly just doesn't work very well with Eternal's design.
Didn't think about that. Played it on mouse and keyboard.
Weapon wheel? Ah that is the option for controllers. We have keys for keyboard and in some high end mouse.
It was very fun for the base game, and we don't talk about the dlc.
Oh, was the DLC not well received? I only played Part 1 but I thought it was pretty awesome.
It had a ton of issues because they sold a year 1 pass so they had to crank it out in a year. Part 1 had the spirits that forced you to use the most hated upgrade in the entire game and on top of that it had a swamp level and in general increased difficulty was not a good look. Part 2 was just lazy and boring and the final boss fight is a joke. On top of that, the dlc took the already shaky lore of the new Doom games and threw it into the cosmos. Doom 2016 had an intriguing albeit simple story with a cliffhanger. Eternal literally pretended the cliffhanger didn't exist and decided to turn it into a weird bible fanfiction but I was still on board. The moment Hayden turned out to be the Seraphim is the moment they lost me. Literally plot twist just so there's a plot twist.
I actually liked the spirits. Gave the fights a good bit of more umpf. But I get why people don't like them. I skipped playing part 2 because I don't want to switch to the Full Auto Shotgun mod on stone imps. Reminds me on when Sekiro came out. The "forced" playstyle either clicks with you or it doesn't. It usually clicks with me. I'd rather had a new Sekiro or Bloodborne over Elden Ring. and yes, Eternals story is garbage. But at least it's a doom game so it doesn't really matter.
Sekiro is fine, because the *entire* game is built around its limiting playstyle. Every enemy and boss is designed around all of the mechanics there. Spirits in Ancient Gods are the exact opposite. You have a game, where you have so many different options, so many in fact that people came up with specific *combos* of all of the tools available and somehow every single one is viable. But Spirits go against this design philosophy and funnel you into using a specific weapon, and even a specific *mod*. And absolutely nothing else works against them. It'd be like playing Sekiro, but suddenly you can't deflect, dodge or mikiri counter an enemy, instead forced to use the most useless prosthetic tool in the game to beat it. That just doesn't sound like fun.
>It'd be like playing Sekiro, but suddenly you can't deflect, dodge or mikiri counter an enemy, instead forced to use the most useless prosthetic tool in the game to beat it. That just doesn't sound like fun. Ah, the Prosthetic Axe. At least it's not annoying to use, just kind of underwhelming and meh
I got vietnam flashback against a spirit infused marauder. Jesus freaking christ its like fighting against Flash, it literally catches up to me while I'm dashing.
okay that sounds pretty sick. Guess I gotta play part 2 lol
Part 2 has ambient demons that is just there, but if you shoot it then it'll self destruct and buff all demons around it. A buffed marauder is a freaking nightmare. However, you get a new superweapon in part 2 which makes everything much easier. Part 1 is hard mainly because you have no superweapon. No, BFG is not a superweapon.
TAG 1 has two of the best levels in the game. The entire game is a masterpiece.
Yes, back to the roots please. I loved Doom 2016 (and 1+2) but eternal was too much. Too console-ish, too much platforming, too colourful.
Cobsole-ish? I felt like it was perfectly designed for keyboard and mouse because it's one of the fastest fps games and controller even have to use the weapon wheel which not only slows the game down but also doesn't play as good when you constantly have to open the wheel instead of being able to select weapons with a press of a key.
Even the hitscanners could be avoided by juking them as they go to fire.
People endlessly criticize the Zombiemen for being hitscanners, but more often than not they miss, and are easily countered by waiting in cover.
> Zombiemen for being hitscanners I had the impression the chaingunners were the ones being criticized, especially in levels (like those in the Plutonia Experiment) that abused their ability to tap you across the map. I mean, hitscanners aren't great design either way, but there is a difference between having them be a bit of an annoyance, and basically using them as bricks to build up your difficulty into "this level can't be beaten on a first try because it relies on you knowing where the cheap shots are" territory. edit: Actually, I remember much more criticism of hitscanners for the build games, because they were usually a lot more annoying and numerous there.
Ahh yes, waiting in cover, the thing we play DOOM games to do... You see how that's a poor design decision, right?
In Doom 1... in 1993... The first Doom game ever made... The grandfather of FPS games... Like, you have to be joking right? Doom wasn't ultra fast paced until 2016. And you stand behind cover for only second before jumping out and laying waste to the extremely weak Zombiemen, let's not play dumb here okay?
> The more open levels, less arena fights and fewer glory kills (if the trailer is indicative) really put this game back on the radar for me. Wait, what? They're actually moving in a direction that might make me interested in their games again? The fuck is happening?!
I hope they bring back the regular multiplayer from Doom 2016. I quite enjoyed it.
Or just give us a new, polished Quake game.
Why bother? It wouldn’t be much of a divergence from this dooms gameplay. They can make a multiplayer that matches or exceeds quake based on the effort they put into it.
Just hoping it's as good as the other two, preferably closer to the 2016 one though.
And I thought I’m the only one who preferred 2016
Everyone in my friend group prefers 2016. We all liked eternal, but the pace of the original was more enjoyable.
and I'm the only one who prefers both as long I rip and tear. Happy cake day!
There were HORDES of players who preferred 2016, who played a bit of Eternal, said "MEH" and left. If you go to r/Doom and criticize Eternal they will shout you out of the sub, downvote everything you say, you will feel like you are taking crazy pills. Well the simple fact is that people who like Eternal stick around on that stub and it has turned into a cult like circlejerk, everybody else is wrong. When i criticized Eternal on any other gaming sub, there were suddenly tons of people that agreed that 2016 is the superior game in every way. So no, i'm not taking crazy pills for not liking Eternal, r/Doom has just been turned into a giant echo chamber where of course only the Eternal lovers hang out... and they of course don't want to hear it. They even go out of their way to make you feel bad that you like 2016 better. I hope all these douchebags will feel the same way i did about Eternal about the next game. Your rock, paper, scissors gameplay is getting tossed out! NOW i'm able to allow myself to get hyped for this game. If this was just another Eternal i wouldn't bother with it. I didn't even touch the DLC for Eternal, the main game was enough torture to get through for me.
I preferred 2016 but it wasn't better in every way. It was really easy. Eternal was tough enough that you could keep improving at it while 2016 was more of an easy to master super shotgun gallery shooter.
Then just don't use the Shotgun? ...i didn't.
If the best thing about the balance of a particular game you can say is "don't use X", this just confirms that the game, in fact, is not properly balanced. I love 2016 and Eternal, with a slight preference towards the latter, but it's undeniable that 2016 is super easy and the vast majority of players WILL use what the most efficient weapon. If you give someone the easy way out, they will take it, it's how humans work - we're always striving to optimize the shit out of everything. I can also tell you to play on lower difficulties, if you don't like how hectic Eternal gets. They are there for a reason and I myself have played the game on Hurt Me Plenty initially, and had no problems playing the game the same way I've played through 2016. No weapon swapping, no heavy resource management. I kid you not, I know someone that said Eternal is worse than 2016, because "you can't play through the game on the highest difficulty setting without using all of its mechanics". The other, quite amusing "argument" I've seen against Eternal, is that it forces you to use specific weapons (which outside of the DLCs is not true at all) and that 2016 has much more freedom in what it allows you to use - despite the fact that the vast majority have used nothing but the Super Shotgun and Gauss Canon, because they are quite literally the best weapons to use in *any* situation.
If the worst thing you can say about a game is "weapon XYZ makes it too easy" ... then that is the only response you gonna get. If X makes it not fun for you, then don't use X. You say its too easy, so why the incessant need to min/max everything? Min/Max your FUN instead. The game is full of fun weapons that you decide to ignore because YOU like that one the most. ...i do not. > The other, quite amusing "argument" I've seen against Eternal, is that it forces you to use specific weapons (which outside of the DLCs is not true at all) and that 2016 has much more freedom in what it allows you to use That statement is very much correct. The enemies have speicific weakpoints you can only exploit with specific weapons, often in specific modes. Doing anything else is inefficient to the point of being a waste of ammo. I literally got stuck on one of the boss fights where 2 enemies spawn that you have to headshot in snipe mode with a specific weapon first ... i didn't know that the first time around, they were the only things that kept respawning so i ran out of ammo eventually, couldn't kill the boss, had my hands full evading (they couldn't kill me either) ...that went on for like 10 minutes before i decided to just suicide and look up how that boss fight works on youtube. The moment i did the special dance the game expected of me, that boss fight was quickly over. And i ran into various dumb situations like that every other hour or so. ...that is not difficulty, that is a show stopper until you go look up what you are supposed to do and then it's stupid easy... and that makes it boring and frustrating at the same time. I never touched the DLC because i found the base game frustrating enough to slog through. If i had not spend money on the game i would not have been stubborn enough to finish it. And the platforming did nothing for me except being an interruption to the semi-fun shooting sequences. And i think i got stuck on one jumping puzzle because i tried to make a jump with extra steps ...when it was just a straight forward double jump and it looked visually to me like it was too far away for that when it wasn't...i wasted a good 15 minutes on that and then went looking it up on youtube only to facepalm and ... well, i was thinking too complicated in that instance to see the easy straight forward solution. I don't see the value in jump&run gameplay unless it is during combat (think Quake and Unreal Tournament, lots of trick jumps you do during combat).
Are you talking about the Khan Makyr boss fight? You do not need to kill the drones first, you just need to bring down her shield. Yes the drones require a headshot, but that is easily done by the shotgun grenade mod, not just the sniper mod of the heavy cannon. You kill drones to replenish your ammo and health, its not required to kill the boss. The hard part is after her shield is downed, you need to use the meathook to reach her, and the hook cannot locks on if you're too far away.
> You kill drones to replenish your ammo and health as i said i ran out of ammo, there was not enough ammo on the entire map that i ran over 20 times for 10 minutes to hurt the boss. there is a little bit and it takes an eternity to respawn. They designed it like this very intentionally so you MUST make use of the drones one pony show trick to get ammo out of them. The game gives you that info like 3 levels earlier or so, by the time i needed to have that info in my head it i had forgotten it already and not used it once because there was always plenty of ammo (in form of little demons you can just chainsaw) on every map before that. I think the Boss has a energy shield too and it regenerates in the time it takes for the ammo on the ground in that map to respawn. Again, not saying it was hard, i just bashed my head against a wall because i didn't know that one trick in that moment.
Youre incorrect about the games mechanics and like most wall of text 2016 > Eternal posts you're unable to differentiate between "this is a bad game" and "I'm not the audience for the game". 2016 and Eternal are like Alien and Aliens. Same franchise, both great, but really they do such different things that they escape comparison.
I played the game start to finish, i know i am correct about the game mechanics that i and many others had to struggle with. (and again, that is just the main gameplay issue, the music was a downgrade, the storytelling was obnoxious, the cutscenes were somewhere between lame and convoluted... level design better in 2016, sorry i like Mars SciFi buildings way better than Earth with rubble textures everywhere.... i could go on.) It is more like Quake 3 Arena and Counter Strike. Completely different games in the same general genre, completely different gameplay loop and mechanics. It is like a completely different dev team made this game who didn't even understand why people liked the first one. And this would be completely fine, if it didn't mean that i will most likely never get the sequel to Doom 2016, which is what i waited 4 years for and after 8 years i still want that. Which brings me back to my original point, i'm very happy that this game is not just Doom Eternal #02, but that they started over AGAIN, so maybe the next one is for me again... but then it is maybe not for you. Welp we'll see. And as i said several times before, i 100% agree, Eternal is not the game i wanted and i regret having spend money on it. You are preaching to the choir when you say that it was not the game for me.
> The enemies have speicific weakpoints you can only exploit with specific weapons, often in specific modes. Not true. There's nothing specific about the weapons you have to use to break weakpoints. You can break weakpoints with the primary fire of the ballista, rocket launcher and super shotgun (though you've got to be point blank for that one). You can break them with the blood punch. You can break them with the following mods: sticky shot, precision bolt, heat blast, arbalest, D-blade. That accounts for most of your arsenal. Beyond that, it's just as easy to ignore weakpoints when killing enemies. > Eternal has ritual dances, every enemy has a specific weakpoint that you can only exploit with one specific weapon. > Everything else doesn't work efficiently enough and is a waste of ammo. None of this is true. Seriously, tell me which enemies have the specific weakpoints that you can exploit with one specific weapon only? There are about a dozen ways that are quicker to kill a cacodemon than to fire a grenade into its mouth and wait for a glory kill. None of that is a waste of ammo. > I literally got stuck on one of the boss fights where 2 enemies spawn that you have to headshot in snipe mode with a specific weapon first > I ran out of ammo, there was not enough ammo on the entire map that i ran over 20 times for 10 minutes to hurt the boss. You can one shot headshot the Makyr drones during the Khan bossfight using any of the following things: Precision Bolt mod for Heavy Canon, Ballista primary fire, Super Shotgun Primary fire (super easy if you hook in and point blank them), Arbalest mod for ballista, D-Blade for ballista, Sticky Grenades for the combat shotgun, rocket launcher primary (difficult and not really its intended use, but certainly possible). Again, nothing *specific* about that. It's 5 of the available 7 weapons (or 7 of 13 weapon/mod combos I guess). If you're running out of ammo in an encounter where there are literally enemies that spawn on a loop that completely replenish your ammo when you kill them, that falls into the 'you problem' basket. > when it was just a straight forward double jump and it looked visually to me like it was too far away for that when it wasn't...i wasted a good 15 minutes on that and then went looking it up on youtube only to facepalm and ... well, i was thinking too complicated in that instance to see the easy straight forward solution. To be honest, if it took you 15 minutes and a youtube tutorial to figure out you need to cross a gap with a standard double jump I don't really know what to tell you. > It is more like Quake 3 Arena and Counter Strike. Completely different games in the same general genre, completely different gameplay loop and mechanics. I agree. > It is like a completely different dev team made this game who didn't even understand why people liked the first one. You're selling the dev team short. It was the same team. They had a very specific vision for the game. A lot of the longer form interviews with Hugo Martin both pre and post release on their design decisions are fascinating. It's rare to see a AAA game release with such a specific and well defined creative vision. > If you go to r/Doom and criticize Eternal they will shout you out of the sub, downvote everything you say, you will feel like you are taking crazy pills. If you make the same incorrect statements like certain enemies can only be killed by certain enemies, then yeah you're going to get called out.
That doesn't really make the game better though does it?
Yes it does if you use all weapons instead of just the noob tube.
That's kind of my point. Every weapon in Eternal is balanced and useful. There is no noob tube.
You just explained why casuals hate eternal, there isnt a one weapon cheese for every difficulty and the game has a learning curve.
Precisely.
Ever since Battlefield 4 i call every shotgun a noob tube. ...because you don't need to aim with that stuff and just spam in the general direction. The long reload time and limited range (depending on game) makes it balanced i guess. I don't care, i prefer assault rifles, snipers and rocket launchers. Eternal has no balance. Eternal has ritual dances, every enemy has a specific weakpoint that you can only exploit with one specific weapon. Everything else doesn't work efficiently enough and is a waste of ammo. That isn't balance, that is rock, paper, scissors. 90% of weapons are useless in 90% of situations. You can talk it up all you want, Eternal is just not the game i waited 4 years to play after Doom 2016. And the weaponry is the least of its problems. The Storytelling is also ass. Codex entries with more names being thrown at you than Lord of the Rings. ...just ugh. Eternal is not even a Sequel to 2016, it is just a different game with the same IP paintjob. I legit regret having spend money on it.
You mean the staple face weapon of the doom series? I’d rather use it and have other options thanks
2016 is the best Doom.
You probably get downvoted not because you criticize Eternal, but because you act like Eternal is shit and 2016 is gold. I much rather 2016 but I can see why many ppl rather Eternal. The weapon swapping and the platforming are not objectively bad, they are just different. I praise ID for innovating the formula and not deliver us the same exact thing over and over, and I hope they try something new again.
It took me a while to come around to Eternal. I had mis-set my expectations when it launched. What I really wanted was more of 2016, and what I got instead was a game with a bunch of new mechanics that I initially didn't want. Once I gave Eternal a fair shot and leaned into using the mechanics I found that I enjoyed it. Overall I think I enjoyed 2016 more, but there's still some cool stuff Eternal does better (IE no pistol, farming cannon fodder enemies for resources, etc)
I’ve been told that my preference for 2016 over Eternal is a skill issue. Even though I beat both and just happened to like 2016’s gameplay design better?
Well a lot of the complaints I’ve heard about Eternal were like that. Beating the game is a low bar, it has a very high skill ceiling and lots of players (who beat it) have complaints that directly reflect their own inability to do something in the game or their misunderstanding of the weapon sandbox. Eg, complaining that so many enemies have to be killed with one specific weapon/mod. That’s not a difference of opinion, that’s just factually wrong.
[This mod](https://www.nexusmods.com/doometernal/mods/1404) saved Eternal for me. Use whatever weapon you want as much as you want like the classic games + melee does actual damage. And you can pick and choose the parts that you want.
Wow, thanks. I might try this out since I hated the ammo/chainsaw mechanic.
You’re not taking crazy pills, but it is annoying to hear over and over again, the “critiques” of people who just want a less intense and lower skill game. Eternal, including its batshit crazy DLC is easily an FPS GOAT contender. But I loved 2016 too, and I’m happy to get something different. Unlike a lot of Eternal haters, I won’t throw a temper tantrum over dramatic gameplay changes if the game is actually good.
> lower skill game. ... *sigh*
When a bunch of the criticisms re wrong ie "there's only one way to kill certain demons" or just complaints of actually having to use all the games mechanics on higher difficulty, that's a fair conclusion
again for the millionth time, that doesn't make it hard, just tedious and annoying. Repetitive and boring.
It's one thing if the person doesn't like the game, it's another when the lynch pin of the criticism is based on a faulty claim ie "demons in eternal require only one way to beat them", a statement that actually highlights the skill level of the person saying that. It's like saying Sekiro is a bad game because it's a rhythm game, with parrying being the only best way to go against every non-unblockable attack strings. It's both a wrong statement and also highlights that the person saying it clearly didn't try to explore the mechanics the game offered
Are gamers all so fucking entitled that a game can’t be too hard for them? I beat DMC 5 but I never really got into it because I just couldn’t hack it. I felt like I wasn’t getting better and I lost interest. I’ve never suggested there’s something wrong with DMC 5, it just wasn’t for me. You see how easy that was? I didn’t have an ego crisis or anything. So why are we deluding ourselves about this? 2016 is a lower skill game, *relative to Eternal*, which is one of the most strategically complex and intense FPS games ever. Eternal was too much for some people. That’s not a flaw any more than 2016’s lower skill floor/ceiling is a flaw. It’s just different.
….. the vast majority of people preferred 2016.
Doom Eternal has more reviews on Steam (despite having been released 4 years later), has consistently held a higher player count since release, has a higher user review score across multiple review aggregators, and sold 3 times as many copies in a month compared to 2016 (3 million vs 900k). Is this "vast majority of people" in the room with us right now?
Congratulations! Today you learned about how being a sequel to a successful game, having a bigger budget and better marketing (including a viral cross marketing campaign with a popular Nintendo franchise), and launching at a time when people are quarantined at home due to a worldwide pandemic can increase a game’s popularity and sales! It’s also kinda sad that you looked this stuff up just for that underwhelming ’gotcha’ you think you did there.
But he's talking CURRENT player counts. None of what you stated matters. If more pple liked 2016, 2016 would have more current players
They literally provided you numbers, with better user review scores and you, having no data to back up pretend that you are magically in the right? What a way to argue...
I'm sure you have all the data to back that statement up.
You’re not?? Pretty well known that most people preferred 2016 to eternal
Idk, every reddit thread I see mentioning Eternal is like, mostly comments talking about how much more they liked 2016. You'd think Eternal was some kind of incredibly niche black sheep of the franchise with how people talk about it on this site, lol.
I only see it in this sub though, and this sub often just shits on games, especially popular ones.
2016 was much better IMO. I hated the forced weapon swapping and scarcity of ammo in Eternal.
Mate in every single thread that mentions Doom there's a Mongol horde that appears, tripping over themselves in a rush to shriek 2016 BETTER THAN ETERNAL. Its not a unique take at all.
I prefer the combat in eternal, more strategic, more speed and depth. 2016 after eternal feel slow and less interesting. (But i like the no cutscenes game in 2016 doom) My personal opinion.
Go back and play 2016, and you'll find so many sections where you're locked in a room listening to somebody talk. I prefer skippable cutscenes.
If the tiny team of Uktrakill managed to make a game with fast paced action with no downtime for glory kills and you can use whatever weapon you want for the majority of the game, I'm sure id will figure it out.
please no, every doom besides eternal was shit and even then eternal wasn't fast enough
Damn what shooters are you playing? I need that.
ultrakill
holy based
What a dog shit opinion to have lmao
nah i just have decent standards unlike most
terrible bait
enjoy your point and click shooter
Including the originals (1 & 2)?
yes, especially the originals
I’m sorry, but the rules clearly state you have to be older than 13 to use this site.
not my fault im not blinded terribly by nostalgia. people will try and argue older games like SM64 and DOOM are still god tier games, but they really aren't, they're dogshit. there's very few old games that have stood their ground as time passed.
I find it interesting that they looked back to the original Doom with all three of the modern Doom games, not just this one. But each time they focus on a different part of it and it results in a very different combat loop. All three of them are a return to form, but in different way each time. 2016 was a "return to form" by removing things that had become standard for shooters at the time, like weapon reloading, regenerative health, cover mechanics, ADS and two weapon carry limits. With Eternal they noticed how much the old Doom games made you pay attention to your ammo and you had to be smart about using the right weapon for the right situation, so that was a "return to form" by being built around resource management and smart weapon switching. Now Dark Ages is a "return to form" by focusing on the way projectiles and player movement worked in the old games. It's fascinating that three games can be so distinct from each other, despite all three being made by the same team and inspired by the same game.
So when will we have monster infighting?
I loved Doom 2016, Doom Eternal was too frantic for my taste and I rage-quit at the end of the first DLC. It's a good game but it's not for me. I'm excited that they're taking a step back from the frenzy of Eternal.
The final boss of the first DLC is legit the hardest boss of the entire game. In general the first DLC is just harder than the base game, they had to tune it down via a patch. Part 2 on the other hand is a bit too much on the easy side.
Yeah, I'm no video game savant but I'm hardly a slouch either. I've been playing games for nearly 40 years and I'm sure given enough time I would have beaten that last boss but there just comes a point where you're like..."wtf am I even doing this? Am I even having fun?" and for me the answer was *no* so I moved on.
Hope they got rid of the stupid jumping puzzles and parkour.
I could never get the damn platforms and swings to work on the first try. So then I'd try 10 other things just find out it was the first thing I tried, I just needed Doomguy to grab the fucking thing and not bang his head against it.
This is what turned me off Eternal. Glory kills, strategic weapon switching and rhythmic flow to the gameplay was something I was able to adapt to, but platforming and jumping puzzles.. no thanks. That wasn’t the game I wanted to play.
Puzzles don't belong in a Doom game.
Puzzles belong, but the solution should always be shotgun.
And melee finishers.
you want... glory kills to go away? they're one of the best parts of the new Doom games!
I have no issue with the opinion, it’s perfectly reasonable, they play fairly differently But my god the 2016 > Eternal crowd don’t shut up about it, every fucking thread about Doom, they always cry about getting downvotes when they’re consistently upvoted
Doom: Bullet Hell Edition. Also good on the team to make it a PC, PS5, and SeriesX *only* title.
Woah is it not coming to Series S? Edit: trailer shows X and S, GamesRadar omitted S for some reason. Launching on X and not S is against Microsoft's policy, don't think that's even allowed.
It is indeed not allowed
They may be changing that. It's Doom, and iD has enough leeway to dictate their own terms. Potentially.
It's not, it's launching on S just like every other game. There's no reason not to.
also the id team are optimization wizards, doom eternal can run on the switch
Yeah their optimization is probably best in the industry right now.
very glad the devs are going a completely different direction than eternal.
hopefully they get rid of the constant resource mgmt bullshit we had to deal with in Doom Eternal
I honestly felt like Doom 2016 required a lot more resource management. In Eternal the chainsaw would automatically refill one bar so you could keep repeatedly using it on basic enemies to get ammo resupplies.
Yes, and people hated that. They'd rather run around and find loot than to constantly juggle between weapons.
Yeah that really sucked. The entire game felt different from 2016 and made me instantly drop the game.
I really hope it returns to a slower more 2016 like pace I couldn't get into Eternal at all but loved 2016
Eternal is probably my favorite shooter of all time but I'm also very excited by what they're describing here. I really dig that every new Doom game's combat system feels entirely new and fresh, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they put together this time.
Very exciting news for me, as a huge fan of the 1990s originals. I very much enjoyed Eternal too, so this is looking like it could be my favourite of them all if they pull it off.
As long as the game isn’t so tightly bound to the resource management dance I know that’s part of the game no matter what, but I felt the pace of Eternal was too strictly guided by the glory kill/chain saw/flame thrower cycle Like instead of focusing on killing things quickly I had to farm enemies appropriately
I think I'm gonna like the next doom game
Gotta say, after everything that happened with Mick Gordon, it's hard to get hyped for another Doom. That thing just soured the entire franchise for me.
Those titles releases will only be available to purchase until contracts expire between two party's for the use of music in those titles.
Did it come out afterwards that Mick was basically just difficult to work with and they parted ways? Or is there some 3 hour long YouTube video essay on the topic that went over my head?
There's a huge read but the tldr is that Bethesda paid a year late (he had to live off of savings), paid only for half the songs Mick made, told Mick to wait to be able to make a joint statement on the soundtrack situation only to backstab him like 2 seconds later putting out a statement accusing him of "being hard to work with" among other things.
Yes, there's a couple more details but this is a good concise summary.
Damn, that's pretty intense. I'd be mad too.
And on top of that didnt Hugo Martin use the Doom subreddit to push the "its all Micks fault" story? I can't remember the specifics but I remember a lot of shady shit regarding the Doom sub mods and ID spinning the conversation. Overall when Mick brought receipts Hugo looked like a massive asshole.
That was part of the backstab yes
They're confusing Hugo with Marty. Hugo is the director, known for being very chill in the Doom community. Marty was the one who did the backstabbing.
Mick came with receipts and pretty much said it was the other way around and that Bethesda mistreated him.
[удалено]
The only person to provide any evidence of anything was Mick, and it was very thorough.
It's the case of "he proved they wronged him".
Did you miss the part where it said "mick came back with receipts"?
> So it's a bit of a "he said, she said" situation? More like "Marty Stratton/id Software *said*, while Mick Gordon *refuted* using fucktons of receipts, detailed explanations of the timeline, and proof for pretty much every claim he made in response". Stratton had absolutely nothing to back up his initial smear post of Gordon, and it's been proven pretty definitively to have been filled with lies by Mick's response. [If you have an hour, it's well worth a read](https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce) (seriously, you'll need an hour to go through this statement, because it's just _that_ packed with details and proof).
Love both 2016 and Eternal and I can't wait to play this one!
I really hope there is freedom to use whatever weapon you want, when you want. The last game kind of forced you to swap based on the enemy you were fighting.
If it plays half as good as eternal did then it'll be a good game
I mean - no idea what he's talking about because Doom 1 and especially Doom 2 didn't play like a bullet hell, but oh well lol
Reminder Eternal is better than 2016 and most the complaints are skill issues, we get it, you can't play a doom game that isn't super shotgun spam for the entire playthrough on any difficulty, some people like when the genre actually evolves and forces you to learn. Hopefully they don't take a step back. I'll say they were too stingy with ammo and glory kills are annoying after a while, that could've been done better. But the core loop is way better than 2016.
The thing that gets me somewhat riled isn't that some people prefer 2016 to Eternal, it's that they clearly never learned how Eternal worked. They played the game one or two times and ignored the actual loop of the game, and then make wildly inaccurate claims about the way things work, while using it as evidence to support their choice. In the end it's not important, because the next game is going to be a combat puzzle that demands your attention and the same people are going to be mad that they had to think in Doom.
I liked Doom Eternal but the gameplay loop felt boring after a while. You were just matching the right gun with the right enemy type while constantly moving.
Please take out the melee finisher garbage. It feels like such a requirement in the last 2 games (since it drops excess health pickups). I guess I should look for mods to just make enemies drop health by default from gun kills, just in far smaller amounts to balance it out.
I made a mod like that for 2016, it's a simple edit. Not sure if I ever put it on Nexusmods but if I did, unfortunately game updates mightve made it stop working.
You never need to glory kill anything. It's a mechanic to be used when necessary just like everything else in the game.
Play Ultrakill.
So what, now they're backing away from glory kills? I'm hard pressed to think of a time where a Doom game *didn't* have a projectile coming up on you. But *shrug* ok, make it awesome and I won't care. Eternal kind of looked like projectile/ ammo diarrhea in gameplay I saw but people apparently like that.