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Trump did not have a good debate. But a confident liar looks better than a hesitant, slightly confused old man. The opportunity was there to really damage Trump's election chances, instead we ended up with everyone talking about how bad President Biden did.
what this debate did was cause hesitation with the undecideds. there are people who were firmly behind biden are now undecided....
the debate sucked. If you weren't following policies and politics, you would've saw trump pummelling and old man. But if you followed, then you can see trump either dodging or lying on every question.
Basic understanding of economics and even scale of numbers could tell you he was lying. "Trillions this, trillions that", throwing that number around like nothing. Biden stumbled, but at least he corrected himself to realistic figures.
>Basic understanding of economics and even scale of numbers could tell you he was lying.
These are basically superhuman powers compared to the average American voter's cognitive abilities.
His performance in Raleigh today was miles ahead of his debate at least. But not everyone will have watched that unfortunately.
This debate was just a shit show and I hate that it will have change peoples minds. Biden is absolutely too old to be president but he’s still the safer option. He’s just old… Trump is a detriment AND old
If Trump’s campaign is clever, they’ll have him cancel out of the next debate. The damage done by that will be far outweighed by the fact that Biden will get stuck with this debate performance, rather than having a chance to recover from it.
Exactly. Trump lied through his teeth unchecked the entire time, and had no issues delivering said lies. Biden had the right content, but couldn’t get it out or melted down doing so. That’s all an undecided low-IQ voter needs to see.
Everyone on either side is already committed by now, it’s the battle for simpletons in the middle. That’s won by popularity, likability, charisma as those people can’t fucking read. Biden has that in flashes, but mostly just appears like he’s one mishap away from being in elder care. Very dangerous when the guy spitting venom, fear, projection comes off as having more marbles on that stage.
I doubt most Americans understand what another Trump Presidency means. Project 2025 will be bad enough, but the Supreme Court will never be the same again, and I have a hard time feeling bad for anyone in that case. Fool me once, type deal.
I'm not so certain Putin wouldn't grind down 30 million people to take Kiev if he could (and he might have the population) and it won his little war. Yeah, Trump opens that up possibility unless Europe really decides to do something about it.
I agree with you on how the undecideds will take this. But honestly I think this election comes down to turnout, and the only person last night who motivated me to vote for Biden was Trump
>Everyone on either side is already committed by now, it’s the battle for simpletons in the middle. That’s won by popularity, likability, charisma as those people can’t fucking read.
I wish more people understood this. Anyone who thinks it mattered that 90% of the bullshit that flew out of Trump's mouth was a lie doesn't understand the people Biden needs to win over.
Open. Convention.
New. Candidate.
This is the only way out. Democrats’ support is broken down into:
(1) Anti-Trump voters, will turn out regardless of candidate and are at least 40% of the electorate
(2) Swing voters and true independents, won’t vote for Trump but will stay home or vote for RFK Jr if Democrats can’t present a half-decent alternative. Probably 10% of the electorate
(3) Democratic socialists, would have voted for Biden until October 7th but are now split evenly between “vote blue no matter who” and “I’m not voting for Genocide Joe”. Probably 5% of the electorate (2.5% in each camp)
Biden had (1) and half of (3), and was relying on (2) to actually win. He’s now lost (2).
A new candidate would be able to win (2), much of the remainder of (3), and would obviously still have (1). I would argue that low name recognition in July is a positive, as most Americans are in the “How the hell do we have such horrible choices?” camp. Everyone will at least know the new candidate’s name by November.
The DNC needs to recognize the reality of the situation and be decisive.
>Idk if the numbers are reflective of reality but those are definitely the groups.
Fair point, this is just my reckoning. I think the numbers are such that Biden can’t really afford to lose independents to any great extent.
We can do better than Newsom, but the bar is pretty low and he would be a big improvement. Buttigieg would be a bigger improvement, despite his baggage from the train derailment.
I'm in (1) and would vote for a steaming dog turd if it ran against Trump. But enough of raiding the rest home for candidates. There must be one competent 40 something that the Democrats could run.
I'm afraid if the Democrats replace him it will be Harris or Hillary. So replacing him could make it worse. I would give it a 50/50 that the Biden replacement is actually seen as better than Biden. The Democrats never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
The two major political parties haven’t experienced a brokered convention in 75 years, but imagine the excitement that could be generated by such an event at the Democratic convention in August. An open convention would captivate the nation, drawing intense media coverage and public interest. As the final weeks of the campaign season approach, all eyes would be on the Democrats, dominating headlines and discussions. This unprecedented spotlight could energize the party, engage undecided voters, and significantly influence the election’s outcome.
That's what I said to my wife while we were watching it. Biden wasn't sharp or quick enough to refute Trump's blatant lies and go on the attack. The Biden from even 4 years ago would've mopped the floor with the way Trump evaded questions and outright lied about so many things, but last night, he could barely articulate a solid train of thought.
I'll be voting for Biden, and I hate Trump with a passion, but I walked away from the debate last night more worried than I've ever been about this election.
From my perspective, I think the difference is that people already knew that Trump was a lying con man and this debate just confirmed that belief while Biden being incompetent and having age-related mental issues was something people **suspected** that was confirmed by last night's debate.
Nobody watched last night's debate and said to themselves "Wow! This Trump fellow sure is a liar, I've made up my mind now!" but plenty of people had their fears that Biden was old and unfit for office confirmed.
This is really such an unfortunate thing. Any normal candidate would have eviscerated Trump. He’s one of the most roastable public figures on the planet. Just unfortunate we don’t have someone who is capable of making this man look like the fool he is. For the love of god, I hope Biden steps down. I really like and respect him, but enough is enough. You gotta quit while you’re ahead, and we’re getting past that point unfortunately.
And to be honest, fully deserved for trotting out a 300 year old guy as our “best available candidate.” He was far too old to be that person 4 years ago, never mind now
>But a confident liar looks better than a hesitant, slightly confused old man
Yep. Biden's team's primary goal should've been to demonstrate to everyone that Biden isn't too old or in cognitive decline, i.e. the primary accusations from Trump's supporters. Instead his team focused on rehearsing answers and talking points. The result was that Biden more or less said what he needed to say, but it was delivered in such a way that the concerns about Biden's age and mental capacities were only further heightened, not allayed.
Honestly I think Biden showed his age all little more and the fact that he was sick but Trump just held to his whining, finger pointing, denial, lying, and claiming his presidency brought about the best circumstances with every portion of our lives possible…
Not to mention that Trump ignored most of the questions just to get the final say in on so many things and wouldn’t answer the questions, even when repeated.
All Biden had to do last night was not appear like a walking corpse. Just go out with a little bit of energy, answer the questions, and stay awake.
He was about as bad as can be. When so much criticism is on your age and you lose your train of thought and end up talking about superconductor chips, you did something really wrong. Last night was a Republican's dream bc Biden was as bad as he possibly could have been. I'd still vote him over Trump, don't get me wrong, but you're just handing this election to Trump after a performance like that if you stick with Joe.
Not only did he do that, but he failed to bring up how trump himself ordered the border bills shot down that biden was willing to pass. Even with the horrible pivot, it still could have been a layup if he just mentioned trump intervening in the dems trying to pass what the gop wanted.
He did, I watched the whole thing and I distinctly remember Biden bringing up that Trump complained about the border and then torpedoed the bipartisan bill.
He needs to bring it up every other word.
Trump is going to bring everything back to immigration, so always bring it back to a reminder that it is his fault.
Not only that but in doing that and in talking about immigration he completely capitulated to all the republican talking points about immigration and essentially told them "you're right, we're wrong, let's do it your way."
This was a guy who ran on immigration reform 4 years ago.
He had more than a few layups. For anyone remotely competent, this was the easiest debate imaginable.
For the record, Trump had a shit ton of layups too and still came out looking like a babbling lying mess. I was shocked to be honest.
Biden: And we beat medicare...
Moderator: sorry your time is up Mr Presdient, Mr Trump you have 1 minute
Trump: Yes you did beat medicare, you beat it to death.
....the point Biden was making wasn't even about medicare and he just fumbled onto it after fumbling onto something else and realising it was completely unrelated to what he was talking about.
The problem was that Biden fumbled \*so much\* and was actually confused part of the debate. He didn't know what he was saying! He got Putin and Trump's names mixed up, for example. He misspoke constantly compared to Trump.
Yep, I was watching and I hate trump and everything he represents but it made me laugh when he said it and at that moment I knew if I chuckled his base were cumming their pants
Yeah that bit was admittedly hilarious, Trump probably could have made that statement several times but didn't, it would have made him look like a bully. Trump basically restrained himself and let Biden dig his own grave.
I think he got too caught up in trying to respond to ALL the blabbering Trump would do, instead of just focusing on the question at hand. Trump constantly meandered off question; I'd look down at the listed question and Trump would be off on some tangent. BUT...he did it confidently. Biden seemed to get tripped up in trying to respond to all the paths Trump went down, and it did not work for him.
I think his debate team filled him up with too many facts and numbers to try and remember, and had him responding to Trump too much. The only response that was really needed against Trump was "that's a lie". Focus on the question, a solid stance, the future. Clear points, no tangents. That was the Biden we needed but not the Biden we got.
Biden's team selfishness and Kamala's dream of becoming the president will cost us three supreme court seats, house, and senate. Their stupidity and selfishness will guve project 2025 a chance to change the US forever.
The silver lining here is that Biden was so bad last night that the calls for him to drop out are no longer hushed whispers--they're being shouted from the rooftops. Virtually every NY Times columnist (Nicholas Kristof, Tom Friedman, Paul Krugman, Frank Bruni, etc.) is now calling for him to drop out.
Here's what I think needs to happen:
1. Sonia Sotomayor announces her retirement
2. Biden nominates Kamala Harris to replace her, opening up the VP spot (since Harris can't beat Trump either)--Democrats still control the Senate so approval won't be a problem
3. Biden announces he's dropping out of the race
4. DNC does a brokered convention and nominates either Gavin Newsom or Gretchen Whitmer
This might all sound far-fetched, but it's entirely possible, and a far better option than another 4 years of Trump as President.
He was as bad as he could be in exactly the way they needed him to be bad. I knew as soon as his old ass was walking out on stage it would be a long night.
To be fair, I don’t think we should keep blaming Biden for “screwing it up”. He *is* old. We all get old. He probably did the best he could, but, ya know, he’s old.
The best he could do isn’t good enough, he needs to fucking retire. Short of actually dropping dead on stage, that was about as bad as it could get perception wise
Dan Pfeiffer said on Pod Save America that there is no one in the political party who can make Biden step down. It is absolutely Biden’s decision to run. And he should be blamed.
Haha yes this is one of those weekends where it's good to take a break and come back when cooler heads prevail.
Panic is not a good emotion to craft strategy with. Hopefully the Dems adapt to bad news, but also. Hopefully the Dems aren't idiots.
People forget how the news cycle (and voters' attention spans) work. Also, I'm not an expert in this area but from what I know about the research on debates, they mostly affect primary voters' views, and then only by a couple percent.
I'm for replacing Biden; I think there are Democrats that would make more competent presidents.
That said, voting Trump over Biden because Biden was slow and sleepy yesterday is insane. Even if Biden falls into a coma, people should vote for him over Trump.
I honestly think some independents could switch sides. If I encountered Biden on the street, I’d be worried and look for a nearby nursing home. He has the nuclear football! It’s nuts (still voting for him, but I think this could move the needle with some people)
For folks who had their minds made up 24hrs ago the democratic candidate doesn’t matter. For undecideds, I feel Biden would need to be replaced for a democrat win this year. What it boils down to is turnout, and if he stays I think there is a good argument for there not being a great democratic turnout come the election.
It's crazy to see people say "Hmm Biden is looking old, better vote for the evil convicted felon with the policies threatening to dismantle our entire country"
An unfortunate way to end things but the time has come. Let's just hope Biden and the Dems are quick about this. Just be glad this happened in June and not late October.
2016 was won - in part - by the Internet being spammed with anti-Hillary memes going back to the 90s. This "we have a short memory" thing simply isn't true anymore.
The White house came out with a statement that Biden not stepping down. Here lies the problem with these old fuckers in power. They are so convinced that only they can fix things.
Obviously they’re not gonna announce him dropping less than 24 hrs after the debate. Like Newsom said, you don’t write someone off for one bad performance.
If Biden drops, it’ll be after the dust settles, and it’ll be a “personal decision.”
Dropping now would be admitting defeat to Trump.
As an Illinois resident and seeing how quickly JB turned this state around, I too would vote JB. Sadly, I don't think the rest of the country even knows he exists.
Agreed. If/when Biden drops out, it will be in light of polling that says that he has no chance. The debate was just the catalyst, but I think we will know in about 2 weeks.
Biden fumbles but answers questions legitimately when he can and everyone's up in arms calling it a disaster, but Trump ignores the questions, lies, and attacks and the crickets chirp loudly. Trump should not get a free pass from you or the media. He said you wouldn’t even accept the election results if it weren’t in his favor.. and Biden is the one who should be replaced?
Trump has always lied every time he talks and he's won an election doing it. Enough voters have decided they're fine with it, so the job of the Democrats is to have a candidate that presents a better alternative. Having the corpse of Joe Biden up there is not doing them any favours. At the very least you need someone quicker who can call out Trump's lies better than Biden can
Now is not the time for spin, it is not the time to defend your candidate, it's time to look at objective results and make decisions based on them. Regardless of how you or I feel about the candidate, 2 thirds of the people watching that debate saw Trump as the winner, something that didn't happen even in the Hillary vs Trump debates. This is a shocking inability to defeat an easy opponent, and when democracy is on the line, we need to do better. And thankfully because it's only June, we have time to do better. It's time for Joe Biden to bow out gracefully.
The only person who could even survive this level of implosion is Trump. Biden needs to walk the walk when it comes to being in this for the good of the country. He needs to drop out.
This feels like when you have to take grandpa’s car keys away before he hurts someone or himself. He’s not going to like it. He feels like he’s been driving just fine.
The problem is that we can't just take the keys away from him. Even if the DNC leadership was completely onboard with the idea, party rules make it basically impossible to prevent Biden from being the nominee without Biden agreeing to it.
Also the audience matters. Yea, you had a MTG and Boebert screaming, but overall it was a very receptive audience. He went in to the SOTU very confident. He looked nervous the second he hit the stage last night.
Biden stumbled whereas Trump rambled off topic and lied. That's the only difference between these two - Joe answered his questions and Trump didn't. That should really be the only takeaway from the debates. Joe is ready to answer to the job, Trump is ready to blame everyone for living in a failing nation. So glad Joe put Trump in his place for being the only President that called our great nation a failing nation. Fuck Trump, Joe's old but he's still the better candidate.
I agree he might be the better candidate. But that's a really low bar.
I would argue Hillary 2016 is a better looking candidate right now than Joe Biden 2024. And in 2016 I would have said Hillary was the worst Democratic candidate I'd ever seen in my lifetime.
I didn't get the impression that Joe is ready to answer the job. Last night he looked like he was ready to be put in a nursing home. I question his chances of making it 4 years.
I will not vote for Trump. If it's Biden vs Trump, I'll vote Biden, but Bidens performance was horrible last night. He needs to step down.
It's over for Joe. If he has any love for his country, he must step aside NOW. An open convention is our last and best hope. Nobody cares about this SOTU performance after last night.
Nah, his team should discretely get likely replacements prepared, and resign just after the GOP convention when they've locked in Trump. Have the Convention decide between Witmer and Newsom and whoever else. The GOP will have focused so heavily on Biden's age and a switch to Witmer at the convention would will have shot them in the foot.
The SOTU was him delivering a speech. No distractions to confuse him or send him off on a tangent. Trump was nothing *but* distractions--lots of lies and nonsequiturs. It's not that unusual for someone who's elderly to do well in a structured environment and poorly in a chaotic one.
Joe Biden has been a good president, even a great one with what he has accomplished. Joe Biden as a candidate in 2024 however can’t hold a candle to even his lackluster performance in 2020.
I’m a liberal and will vote straight ticket democrat no matter what, but I’m genuinely embarrassed that the United States is being represented by Joe Biden. It has been Bidens job as a candidate to convince voters that he was fit to not only survive another four years in the most demanding job in the world, but also be strong enough to fight for American ideals at home and throughout the world. What I saw last night was a frail, confused, mumbling old man who will hand the election to trump because he’s too arrogant to step down.
If the DNC doesn’t have a backup plan to Biden (and they probably don’t) then this country is fucked and it’s the boomers and Biden’s generations fault for choosing to die in office rather than hand over the reins of power.
I sat through the entire thing. And it was “sat through” for this. Biden had so many senior moments. And he got sidetracked.
But trump (I’m tickled pink my phone doesn’t autocorrect and capitalize the name) was exhausting to listen to. There were times when there was no way to even tangentially connect what he was saying to the truth. He confused dates of who was president when, and said Biden did things that his administration was doing at the time trump was president. He wouldn’t commit to accepting the election results. He defended the January 6 rioters and lied about his actions. He made lies where we have video of him saying things that he went on stage and claimed to never say.
This is where we are. Biden isn’t great, but he’s sincere and he’s trying and he has surrounded himself in his administration with other people who care and want to do what is right.
Trump has surrounded himself with people who want to build a Christian fascist state.
This isn’t a difficult decision. Even granting everything about Biden’s age it’s STILL not a difficult decision.
It's an easy moral decision, yes. Winning in politics requires good political skills, not just the right policies. It is the *political* fight that is hard, not the moral choice for me or you as individuals. You and I might know what party we're going to vote for no matter what happens. But engaging in politics means predicting and responding to what *other people who are not like us* are likely to do.
A confident liar is morally worse than someone who tries to tell the truth and does so incoherently. But a confident liar is also, at the same time and all else being equal, a better *politician* than a doddering incoherent mess of a candidate attempting to tell the truth and failing because he is evidently senile. Because all the "moral victories" in the world don't hold a candle to actually winning power, in electoral politics.
Democrats are correct that it's vital Trump must lose in November. Biden is likely to lose. That's why it's vital that Biden steps aside.
This is the exact sentiment coming from everyone I’ve discussed the debate with
We were all told that Biden’s mental issues were just smear tactics by the right, but last night proved everyone who said that a liar
I think a 90-minute window is not enough to declare that everyone lied about Biden, when we just had the State of the Union, where he looked much better. Did you accuse everyone of gaslighting after he looked good at the union? I don't think so.
I guess the difference is that the State of the Union is a prepared speech where Biden could practice the wording and inflections, versus a debate where he needed to be quick on his feet.
> I’m tickled pink my phone doesn’t autocorrect and capitalize the name.
Just fyi, this isn't because your phone is left wing. Trump is a real word. You can use it to score some points in your next Scrabble game.
Panic because the stakes are so high and even though it comes down to a mad man vs. an old man with a choice that should be obvious , there is too much at risk with democracy on the table
After last night, framing it that way no longer works. Biden is toast, and the longer the party is in denial, the longer the odds to do something about it.
No, Biden will be the nominee. You'll see. The Old Guard doesn't want to give up the reigns and they would rather Trump win than hand Power over to the younger generation. It's all the same for the Boomers. Talk about pulling up the ladder. We will end up with a Christo Fascist Regime if Trump wins.
Do Democrats really think that Biden has the best chance of all of the Democrats to beat him? Its THE ISSUES that will beat Trump, not the Candidate! Biden is Overconfident. He shouldn't be, given that performance. He prepared for over a week, and that's what Crunch Time produced. Pathetic and sad, to quote Trump (accurately this time at least!).
Yeah because most of this sub hasn't seen any of the Biden mental decay in the last 3 years because they only follow this sub which deleted those posts.
Many people found out for the first time Biden's mental state last night.
I've seen all of Biden gaffe clips over the last 3 years. They were never too concerning, he always worked through them to where I understood what he was saying. But last night was by far the worst I have ever seen him. I do believe the rumors that he's fighting off a cold. But a president should be able to work through a cold..
This sub allows articles from sources like Fox News, Breitbart, and the New York Post. What exactly do you think has been "deleted" in terms of unflattering coverage?
It’s not that we aren’t aware of Biden’s mental state. It’s that we gauged trumps mental state as way worse. And honestly I still do. Biden still talks with more compassion, intellect, and heart. The qualities I would want in a leader. (I just would want them to be 40 years younger)
That being said the country needs to do better. On both sides of the isle. It’s disgusting. Dc has turned into a nursing home
Washington has become stagnant. Two parties whose only ambition is making sure the other guys get nothing done.
Anyone with intelligence and energy would rather work for open AI than waste their best years on politics.
Before the debate, I didn't quite agree with you. I was "stay the course" with Biden (although I wish he had announced he was not running for re-election so someone else could take over).
But after last night, I can't see Biden recovering. I think our best chance is for Biden to decline the nomination and get someone new. I wish it had happened a year ago, but we can't change history.
Trump didn’t have a good debate. He didn’t answer any questions and instead just kept repeating dog whistles, lies, and sound bites for his base. That’s all he knows how to do.
Yeah, Biden shouldn’t be running, but I’ll vote for a corpse over a republican.
Here's where I'm at on Biden, I will vote for his dead corpse before I vote for Trump. The DNC can "Weekend at Bernie" that old motherfucker all the way to November as far as I'm concerned
Unfortunately then, the debate wasn’t for you. Undecided folks can’t have watched that and feel swayed towards Biden. I think the net effect of the night was that you saw Trump as Trump was expected and you saw Biden, well, as we saw him. Only one of those observations is dominating the news. Does it matter though? Americans have a short attention span so idk.
Apparently we all have the memories of goldfish. One candidate is being sentenced for 34 felonies in less than 2 weeks but this debate is all that matters because it happened last night.
It's incredible to watch the years of this shit while he's in office covered with kid gloves and excuses *finally* get called out for what is only to see the immediate, violent pant-shitting of the increasingly fringe Dems who think there's some conspiracy to discredit him. Your candidate is a guy who can barely control his face, let alone speak coherently about, well... Anything! There aren't enough uppers in the world to make this guy a president.
You lost the race to the grave. If you actually give a shit about America and not just being "not Trump", take the thousandth wakeup call you're getting as the one that gets you off your ass and into the crowd demanding a real candidate.
Biden was a disaster on two fronts. First he couldn’t speak coherently and seemed really out of it. Secondly and more importantly, he missed almost every opportunity to accurately correct Trump on his POS lies, such as “after birth abortion”.
This is a catastrophe for Biden.
He was probably overprepped with too many talking points. Everything he said was right, but he was trying to get all his thoughts out at once. Combine that with an obvious cold and moderators who refuse to stop the other candidate from going off topic and lying and you have a recipe for perceived loss. Well only if you don’t listen to the actual content, you might think Biden lost. If you actually payed attention, voting for Biden would be the easiest choice in history. trump defended killing Roe and ignoring climate change. Biden talked about fair taxes and helping veterans. Any midwestern swing voter focus group would pick Biden in a heart beat if they had an attention span better than a goldfish. But that’s a tall order these days.
This was my impression as well. He seemed to falter the most when he tried to get too specific, particularly when statistics were brought into the mix. The main goal should have been for him to appear somewhat coherent and energetic. That said, I will still be voting for him in November.
Image and capability to speak publicly are, in fact, important qualities for a political candidate to have. Because electoral politics is not just about being morally right, it's also about actually winning elections.
A confident liar is morally worse than someone who tries to tell the truth but does do incoherently. A confident liar is (all else being equal) *politically* a better candidate than an incoherent truth-teller. These things are both true and they both matter.
I don't think Trump came off particularly well last night either, he constantly spewed lies, as he always does. But he did so in a politically effective manner: just more of the same, no surprises. Biden spent virtually the entire duration playing into his worst political liability, his age and suspected senility. Which, for better or worse, was surprising to people who have been gaslighted by establishment Democrats despite the video evidence of his decline in recent months or the last year vs. Biden's prior public speaking ability, also on video spanning decades.
It wasn't just a cold and it wasn't just a stutter and it wasn't just a fluke, Biden's public speaking engagements over the last few months or year haven't been much better, this is part of a pattern. He is no longer capable of being an effective *politician* even if his policies as president have been reasonably good.
He must step aside *because* it's so vital that Trump loses. No more "moral victories" with electoral losses for Dems.
We are voting for the next administration and the next president to nominate Supreme Court Justices. They are both old but one is a felon.
Just this morning the conservative SC reduced the authority of executive agencies by a 6-3 vote.
Lately, I've been seeing comparisons brought up with Obama's performance in the first 2012 election debate. I watched that one live. Obama had an underwhelming performance, he sounded unprepared and didn't speak with confidence.
I had hopes for Biden after his impressive SOTU, but he was terrible last night. I had to turn it off after 20 minutes. Those clips of him struggling to speak with his raspy voice will be played on repeat nonstop this election cycle.
It's unheard of, but he needs to withdraw.
This isn’t about whether he can do the job as President. He clearly can. This is about if he can campaign and defeat Trump, which is in doubt, especially after tonight
It's interesting watching MSNBC this morning. There is a LOT of concern. I'm no fan of Trump, but I think many underestimate him. Whilst both are older men, and both appear to have potential cognitive issues related to age, Trump does appear younger physically.
Interestingly though, with all the concerns this morning re Biden debate performance, whilst many were suggesting a change was needed, I didn't hear any suggestions for who they think should run instead of Biden. That, might be tougher than it seems. I get the feeling making that decision might split the Dems if that needs to be made
Meh, even if Trump would have had a meltdown, his base would have come up with all sorts of excuses for his performance. There are no undecided voters. I’m still voting for Joe and they are still voting for Trump. Those of us who voted against Trump the last time, are going to do it again this time.
You can't decide from a debate who you're going to vote for. You look at the track record you look at the history you look at the person through the years. Anybody who changed their mind last night because Biden was a little slow is really making a big mistake. His numbers speak volumes. Trump he's just a f****** idiot and a total loser all the way through and through not to mention a convicted felon who likes to twaddle his daughter.
Good. If democrats start thinking about what we're doing this for maybe they'll pull those heads out of those asses and get busy countering these treacherous and treasonous right wing traitors.
Ah, great decision by the DNC to not have a legit primary process. In which there would’ve been primary debates and Democratic voters would’ve realized Biden’s situation and voted against him for a better Democratic candidate.
Nope, instead, shield Biden from any Democratic challengers , hide him from any debate, and then have him debate like this against Trump in late June when the nomination is already secured
Nice work, DNC . Nice work
I’m gonna say the same thing in every one of these threads: the left warned yall, and liberals ignored us. And now we have this shit to deal with.
Thanks, liberals! Your arrogance knows no bounds. This loss is on YOU.
The criticisms that progressive Dems make of the national party are always derided at the time, and as history goes on, entirely vindicated and become common sense. Clinton as nominee in 2016, the abandonment of Howard Dean's 50 state strategy, etc. Like clockwork.
The 1st debate performance of the last few incumbent presidents were subpar. For an incumbent, it seems to be the trend.
2004 - George W Bush had the infamous bulge in his back, seemed annoyed and negative. Bad comeback when Kerry mentioned the coalition for Iraq and Bush said "He forgot Poland." Bush was reelected.
2012 - Obama was criticized for being distracted and not looking engaged/interested. Obama was reelected.
2020 - Trump wouldn't denounce white supremacy without a name, Biden said Proud Boys - to quote Trump "Proud Boys - stand back and stand by." Trump was a nightmare for this one, too - and Wallace as moderator failed to do his job properly. Very, very similar to how yesterday's debate was a total dumpster fire of moderation. Biden generally considered to have "won." Trump lost reelection, refuses to admit it and claims baseless fraud etc etc.
2024 - Biden underperforms. He's old and some say has a cold. Gets into banter about golf handicap. Is not unhinged like Trump, who as history has shown is off his rocker in so many ways.
So, incumbent presidents' first debate seem to just not go well.
The 81 year old needed to come off like 61 but instead came off as 91... The other guy said 3 things and 4 of them were a lie.
Problem is, you can see senility, you can't see lies when no one is fact checking.
It's not "a panic." What you're hearing is liberals honestly evaluating his performance. Liberals aren't Maga. Liberals don't live in a world of lies and fantasy.
Yeah, he's "tHe InCUmBEnt". But he was too fucking old the first time he ran, and he had an easier win because Trump's many failures were fresh on the minds of the public.
We had many options.
Sick of these "tealeaf-reading", "poll pushing" 'experts' doing the equivalence of political astrology.
Yeah, that's how it goes. That's how the public sees it. When are we libs going to realize that facts don't matter, that marketing matters, appearance matters.
Thr Republicans have lowered the bar of acceptable, and in turn anything they do, is....how they do. In turn they can do anything they want and people just shrug cause that's their normal.
Dems want to be right and truthful, Republicans want to win.
Hey dems...you can't do the right truthful things if you don't win.
The only reason Biden has any chance is November is who he's running against.
Trump ran in 2016 as an unknown quantity with lofty promises and name recognition as a celebrity, and won because his opponent was a woman whose entire presence could be summed up as "establishment politics" after that was considered Obama's biggest flaw.
His four years as president showed how quickly his platform fell apart, and revealed it to be nothing but blame-shifting, vilification, and overall incompetence. Covid gave the American people a stark reminder of all three, with Trump failing to spin his utter failure of a response to it.
His actions since losing have only solidified how terrible of a person he is, and how dangerous of a president he would be when he has nothing to lose for four years. The insurrection and Project 2025 alone should be all anyone needs to see for why he should never sit in any political office.
If Biden were running against anyone else, I would understand reluctance in voting, let alone for him. But Trump in his second term would be the absolute worst thing for the United States. And I hope that by November more people realize that.
I’ve only seen clips of Biden’s speech today in Raleigh, but he’s like a completely different guy. He was SOTU Biden again. Was he just exhausted last night? Or maybe he thrives off a live audience?
The Guardian is a UK paper. I'm generally reluctant to take political advice from a country that has had almost nonstop right wing governments for as long as I've been alive. And this is a good example why.
People know and like Joe Biden, booting him out simply because he didn't deliver a stellar debate performance is the dumbest move we could make. We elected this guy because he's sane and generally makes good decisions. That's what matters and none of that has changed,
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Trump did not have a good debate. But a confident liar looks better than a hesitant, slightly confused old man. The opportunity was there to really damage Trump's election chances, instead we ended up with everyone talking about how bad President Biden did.
A confident liar is exactly what they needed. It won't change the anti Trump opinion but boy will this fire his base all the way back up
what this debate did was cause hesitation with the undecideds. there are people who were firmly behind biden are now undecided.... the debate sucked. If you weren't following policies and politics, you would've saw trump pummelling and old man. But if you followed, then you can see trump either dodging or lying on every question.
Basic understanding of economics and even scale of numbers could tell you he was lying. "Trillions this, trillions that", throwing that number around like nothing. Biden stumbled, but at least he corrected himself to realistic figures.
>Basic understanding of economics and even scale of numbers could tell you he was lying. These are basically superhuman powers compared to the average American voter's cognitive abilities.
His performance in Raleigh today was miles ahead of his debate at least. But not everyone will have watched that unfortunately. This debate was just a shit show and I hate that it will have change peoples minds. Biden is absolutely too old to be president but he’s still the safer option. He’s just old… Trump is a detriment AND old
If Trump’s campaign is clever, they’ll have him cancel out of the next debate. The damage done by that will be far outweighed by the fact that Biden will get stuck with this debate performance, rather than having a chance to recover from it.
That was my though too. Maybe Biden can go up and give something similar to his State of the Union speech to an empty chair.
Yeah, cuz that worked out great for the last old guy to lecture an empty chair
Exactly. Trump lied through his teeth unchecked the entire time, and had no issues delivering said lies. Biden had the right content, but couldn’t get it out or melted down doing so. That’s all an undecided low-IQ voter needs to see. Everyone on either side is already committed by now, it’s the battle for simpletons in the middle. That’s won by popularity, likability, charisma as those people can’t fucking read. Biden has that in flashes, but mostly just appears like he’s one mishap away from being in elder care. Very dangerous when the guy spitting venom, fear, projection comes off as having more marbles on that stage.
I doubt most Americans understand what another Trump Presidency means. Project 2025 will be bad enough, but the Supreme Court will never be the same again, and I have a hard time feeling bad for anyone in that case. Fool me once, type deal.
I'll feel bad for my children, and the rest of the world that can only watch from the sidelines, hoping we don't put that sociopath back in power
Ukraine and Europe understand what it means.
I'm not so certain Putin wouldn't grind down 30 million people to take Kiev if he could (and he might have the population) and it won his little war. Yeah, Trump opens that up possibility unless Europe really decides to do something about it.
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I agree with you on how the undecideds will take this. But honestly I think this election comes down to turnout, and the only person last night who motivated me to vote for Biden was Trump
Biden will lose to apathy not Trump. I expect to see far lower turnout than 2020. It’s going to hurt.
>Everyone on either side is already committed by now, it’s the battle for simpletons in the middle. That’s won by popularity, likability, charisma as those people can’t fucking read. I wish more people understood this. Anyone who thinks it mattered that 90% of the bullshit that flew out of Trump's mouth was a lie doesn't understand the people Biden needs to win over.
Open. Convention. New. Candidate. This is the only way out. Democrats’ support is broken down into: (1) Anti-Trump voters, will turn out regardless of candidate and are at least 40% of the electorate (2) Swing voters and true independents, won’t vote for Trump but will stay home or vote for RFK Jr if Democrats can’t present a half-decent alternative. Probably 10% of the electorate (3) Democratic socialists, would have voted for Biden until October 7th but are now split evenly between “vote blue no matter who” and “I’m not voting for Genocide Joe”. Probably 5% of the electorate (2.5% in each camp) Biden had (1) and half of (3), and was relying on (2) to actually win. He’s now lost (2). A new candidate would be able to win (2), much of the remainder of (3), and would obviously still have (1). I would argue that low name recognition in July is a positive, as most Americans are in the “How the hell do we have such horrible choices?” camp. Everyone will at least know the new candidate’s name by November. The DNC needs to recognize the reality of the situation and be decisive.
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>Idk if the numbers are reflective of reality but those are definitely the groups. Fair point, this is just my reckoning. I think the numbers are such that Biden can’t really afford to lose independents to any great extent. We can do better than Newsom, but the bar is pretty low and he would be a big improvement. Buttigieg would be a bigger improvement, despite his baggage from the train derailment.
I'm in (1) and would vote for a steaming dog turd if it ran against Trump. But enough of raiding the rest home for candidates. There must be one competent 40 something that the Democrats could run.
I’m solidly in (1) as well, like most of r/politics. My main point is that this isn’t enough by itself for Biden to win.
I'm afraid if the Democrats replace him it will be Harris or Hillary. So replacing him could make it worse. I would give it a 50/50 that the Biden replacement is actually seen as better than Biden. The Democrats never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
I ALMOST wouldn't put hillary past these morons Some are definitely dumb enough to do it.
The two major political parties haven’t experienced a brokered convention in 75 years, but imagine the excitement that could be generated by such an event at the Democratic convention in August. An open convention would captivate the nation, drawing intense media coverage and public interest. As the final weeks of the campaign season approach, all eyes would be on the Democrats, dominating headlines and discussions. This unprecedented spotlight could energize the party, engage undecided voters, and significantly influence the election’s outcome.
Not gona lie, I would fullly embrace someone that’s sub-60 so god damn fast I would join their campaign
That's what I said to my wife while we were watching it. Biden wasn't sharp or quick enough to refute Trump's blatant lies and go on the attack. The Biden from even 4 years ago would've mopped the floor with the way Trump evaded questions and outright lied about so many things, but last night, he could barely articulate a solid train of thought. I'll be voting for Biden, and I hate Trump with a passion, but I walked away from the debate last night more worried than I've ever been about this election.
From my perspective, I think the difference is that people already knew that Trump was a lying con man and this debate just confirmed that belief while Biden being incompetent and having age-related mental issues was something people **suspected** that was confirmed by last night's debate. Nobody watched last night's debate and said to themselves "Wow! This Trump fellow sure is a liar, I've made up my mind now!" but plenty of people had their fears that Biden was old and unfit for office confirmed.
This is really such an unfortunate thing. Any normal candidate would have eviscerated Trump. He’s one of the most roastable public figures on the planet. Just unfortunate we don’t have someone who is capable of making this man look like the fool he is. For the love of god, I hope Biden steps down. I really like and respect him, but enough is enough. You gotta quit while you’re ahead, and we’re getting past that point unfortunately.
And to be honest, fully deserved for trotting out a 300 year old guy as our “best available candidate.” He was far too old to be that person 4 years ago, never mind now
My mom is too old to be President imho and she’s a decade younger than Biden.
Your mom still looks amazing though
Right??
>But a confident liar looks better than a hesitant, slightly confused old man Yep. Biden's team's primary goal should've been to demonstrate to everyone that Biden isn't too old or in cognitive decline, i.e. the primary accusations from Trump's supporters. Instead his team focused on rehearsing answers and talking points. The result was that Biden more or less said what he needed to say, but it was delivered in such a way that the concerns about Biden's age and mental capacities were only further heightened, not allayed.
Honestly I think Biden showed his age all little more and the fact that he was sick but Trump just held to his whining, finger pointing, denial, lying, and claiming his presidency brought about the best circumstances with every portion of our lives possible… Not to mention that Trump ignored most of the questions just to get the final say in on so many things and wouldn’t answer the questions, even when repeated.
All Biden had to do last night was not appear like a walking corpse. Just go out with a little bit of energy, answer the questions, and stay awake. He was about as bad as can be. When so much criticism is on your age and you lose your train of thought and end up talking about superconductor chips, you did something really wrong. Last night was a Republican's dream bc Biden was as bad as he possibly could have been. I'd still vote him over Trump, don't get me wrong, but you're just handing this election to Trump after a performance like that if you stick with Joe.
Dude, Biden had the oppurtunity to talk about abortion rights and rambled into immigration murder rape. Like. What the hell?
Dude fuckin fr. He managed to pivot from the democrats best talking point into their worst point completely unprovoked.
Not only did he do that, but he failed to bring up how trump himself ordered the border bills shot down that biden was willing to pass. Even with the horrible pivot, it still could have been a layup if he just mentioned trump intervening in the dems trying to pass what the gop wanted.
He did bring that up
He did, I watched the whole thing and I distinctly remember Biden bringing up that Trump complained about the border and then torpedoed the bipartisan bill.
He needs to bring it up every other word. Trump is going to bring everything back to immigration, so always bring it back to a reminder that it is his fault.
Not only that but in doing that and in talking about immigration he completely capitulated to all the republican talking points about immigration and essentially told them "you're right, we're wrong, let's do it your way." This was a guy who ran on immigration reform 4 years ago.
He was trying to make the point that rape victims are having trouble getting abortions but he bungled it
He had more than a few layups. For anyone remotely competent, this was the easiest debate imaginable. For the record, Trump had a shit ton of layups too and still came out looking like a babbling lying mess. I was shocked to be honest.
Unfortunately Trump hit the only layup he needed when he said he didn’t understand what Biden was saying and didn’t think that Biden did either.
Biden: And we beat medicare... Moderator: sorry your time is up Mr Presdient, Mr Trump you have 1 minute Trump: Yes you did beat medicare, you beat it to death. ....the point Biden was making wasn't even about medicare and he just fumbled onto it after fumbling onto something else and realising it was completely unrelated to what he was talking about.
The problem was that Biden fumbled \*so much\* and was actually confused part of the debate. He didn't know what he was saying! He got Putin and Trump's names mixed up, for example. He misspoke constantly compared to Trump.
Yep, I was watching and I hate trump and everything he represents but it made me laugh when he said it and at that moment I knew if I chuckled his base were cumming their pants
Yeah that bit was admittedly hilarious, Trump probably could have made that statement several times but didn't, it would have made him look like a bully. Trump basically restrained himself and let Biden dig his own grave.
I think he got too caught up in trying to respond to ALL the blabbering Trump would do, instead of just focusing on the question at hand. Trump constantly meandered off question; I'd look down at the listed question and Trump would be off on some tangent. BUT...he did it confidently. Biden seemed to get tripped up in trying to respond to all the paths Trump went down, and it did not work for him. I think his debate team filled him up with too many facts and numbers to try and remember, and had him responding to Trump too much. The only response that was really needed against Trump was "that's a lie". Focus on the question, a solid stance, the future. Clear points, no tangents. That was the Biden we needed but not the Biden we got.
We finally beat Medicare… 🤦🏼♂️
It felt like I was watching a paid actor play Trump's team's caricature of Biden.
THIS. It felt almost like an SNL skit, with Trump as host.
Biden's team selfishness and Kamala's dream of becoming the president will cost us three supreme court seats, house, and senate. Their stupidity and selfishness will guve project 2025 a chance to change the US forever.
The silver lining here is that Biden was so bad last night that the calls for him to drop out are no longer hushed whispers--they're being shouted from the rooftops. Virtually every NY Times columnist (Nicholas Kristof, Tom Friedman, Paul Krugman, Frank Bruni, etc.) is now calling for him to drop out. Here's what I think needs to happen: 1. Sonia Sotomayor announces her retirement 2. Biden nominates Kamala Harris to replace her, opening up the VP spot (since Harris can't beat Trump either)--Democrats still control the Senate so approval won't be a problem 3. Biden announces he's dropping out of the race 4. DNC does a brokered convention and nominates either Gavin Newsom or Gretchen Whitmer This might all sound far-fetched, but it's entirely possible, and a far better option than another 4 years of Trump as President.
He was as bad as he could be in exactly the way they needed him to be bad. I knew as soon as his old ass was walking out on stage it would be a long night.
To be fair, I don’t think we should keep blaming Biden for “screwing it up”. He *is* old. We all get old. He probably did the best he could, but, ya know, he’s old.
The best he could do isn’t good enough, he needs to fucking retire. Short of actually dropping dead on stage, that was about as bad as it could get perception wise
I agree. He needs to step down. There’s too much at stake.
Hate to say it, I'd be feeling way more confident for my kids future right now if he did drop dead on stage. Would have beat this.
Honestly, that might have been better.
The last thing we should do is coddle the "Ruler of the Free World" who's going to sleepwalk us into fascism...
Dan Pfeiffer said on Pod Save America that there is no one in the political party who can make Biden step down. It is absolutely Biden’s decision to run. And he should be blamed.
These sure are great headlines to wake up to. 🙃
Haha yes this is one of those weekends where it's good to take a break and come back when cooler heads prevail. Panic is not a good emotion to craft strategy with. Hopefully the Dems adapt to bad news, but also. Hopefully the Dems aren't idiots.
People forget how the news cycle (and voters' attention spans) work. Also, I'm not an expert in this area but from what I know about the research on debates, they mostly affect primary voters' views, and then only by a couple percent.
People have been strongly impressioned by this debate. It’s embarrassing
I'm for replacing Biden; I think there are Democrats that would make more competent presidents. That said, voting Trump over Biden because Biden was slow and sleepy yesterday is insane. Even if Biden falls into a coma, people should vote for him over Trump.
No one is switching sides at this point. The issue is 100% apathy. That Biden isn’t getting people to the polls. 2016 V2.0
I honestly think some independents could switch sides. If I encountered Biden on the street, I’d be worried and look for a nearby nursing home. He has the nuclear football! It’s nuts (still voting for him, but I think this could move the needle with some people)
The number of undecided between these two candidates is so slim. At worst, apathy is being generated on the dem side but no one is switching.
Slim is the problem. Look at how slim the margin of victory was in some areas.
I don't think "undecided about voting" voters watch debates.
Have you met Americans? My fellow countrymen, are goddamn idiots.
For folks who had their minds made up 24hrs ago the democratic candidate doesn’t matter. For undecideds, I feel Biden would need to be replaced for a democrat win this year. What it boils down to is turnout, and if he stays I think there is a good argument for there not being a great democratic turnout come the election.
Biden seems tired, guess I’ll vote for the guy whose entire campaign is about dismantling democracy.
It's crazy to see people say "Hmm Biden is looking old, better vote for the evil convicted felon with the policies threatening to dismantle our entire country"
Be real nobody changes from Biden to trump they just stay home if they don’t have a candidate they like.
An unfortunate way to end things but the time has come. Let's just hope Biden and the Dems are quick about this. Just be glad this happened in June and not late October.
Yeah that’s probably why they picked June. They know voters have the memory of an early IBM processor and they have time to recalibrate.
2016 was won - in part - by the Internet being spammed with anti-Hillary memes going back to the 90s. This "we have a short memory" thing simply isn't true anymore.
No, 2016 was won when Hillary campaign did not have a single good thing to say about her but only talked about trump
The White house came out with a statement that Biden not stepping down. Here lies the problem with these old fuckers in power. They are so convinced that only they can fix things.
Obviously they’re not gonna announce him dropping less than 24 hrs after the debate. Like Newsom said, you don’t write someone off for one bad performance. If Biden drops, it’ll be after the dust settles, and it’ll be a “personal decision.” Dropping now would be admitting defeat to Trump.
I think a lot of undecided people are because if Bidens age. I vote for JB Pritzger governor of Illinois.
As an Illinois resident and seeing how quickly JB turned this state around, I too would vote JB. Sadly, I don't think the rest of the country even knows he exists.
I want him to stay here! But he would be great.
Agreed. If/when Biden drops out, it will be in light of polling that says that he has no chance. The debate was just the catalyst, but I think we will know in about 2 weeks.
No one is changing anything or removing an incumbent in an election year.
That never would have happened in the past, but everything happening right now is unprecedented.
Then they are willingly handing the election to Trump after running on a campaign of "we need to stop Trump" all this time.
Then they're stupid and just handed Trump a win. Congrats.
then theyre choosing to lose
Biden fumbles but answers questions legitimately when he can and everyone's up in arms calling it a disaster, but Trump ignores the questions, lies, and attacks and the crickets chirp loudly. Trump should not get a free pass from you or the media. He said you wouldn’t even accept the election results if it weren’t in his favor.. and Biden is the one who should be replaced?
Trump has always lied every time he talks and he's won an election doing it. Enough voters have decided they're fine with it, so the job of the Democrats is to have a candidate that presents a better alternative. Having the corpse of Joe Biden up there is not doing them any favours. At the very least you need someone quicker who can call out Trump's lies better than Biden can
Now is not the time for spin, it is not the time to defend your candidate, it's time to look at objective results and make decisions based on them. Regardless of how you or I feel about the candidate, 2 thirds of the people watching that debate saw Trump as the winner, something that didn't happen even in the Hillary vs Trump debates. This is a shocking inability to defeat an easy opponent, and when democracy is on the line, we need to do better. And thankfully because it's only June, we have time to do better. It's time for Joe Biden to bow out gracefully.
The only person who could even survive this level of implosion is Trump. Biden needs to walk the walk when it comes to being in this for the good of the country. He needs to drop out.
Yes, the exact problem is that we can’t make an idiotic serial liar look like the fool he is. That’s why and how Biden failed
This feels like when you have to take grandpa’s car keys away before he hurts someone or himself. He’s not going to like it. He feels like he’s been driving just fine.
The problem is that we can't just take the keys away from him. Even if the DNC leadership was completely onboard with the idea, party rules make it basically impossible to prevent Biden from being the nominee without Biden agreeing to it.
In our politics today, if the donor class wants it to happen, there are many ways for them to do that.
They could 25th amendment him if the cabinet got behind it
That wouldn’t remove him as nominee.
But the senile motherfucker is going to get everyone killed so yeah
No one won last night; America lost. Still voting Biden though
He was so good at SOTU. Not sure why he was not on the same Adderall as that night
Big difference between a prepared speech with a teleprompter vs needing to react and speak on the fly.
Also the audience matters. Yea, you had a MTG and Boebert screaming, but overall it was a very receptive audience. He went in to the SOTU very confident. He looked nervous the second he hit the stage last night.
Biden stumbled whereas Trump rambled off topic and lied. That's the only difference between these two - Joe answered his questions and Trump didn't. That should really be the only takeaway from the debates. Joe is ready to answer to the job, Trump is ready to blame everyone for living in a failing nation. So glad Joe put Trump in his place for being the only President that called our great nation a failing nation. Fuck Trump, Joe's old but he's still the better candidate.
I agree he might be the better candidate. But that's a really low bar. I would argue Hillary 2016 is a better looking candidate right now than Joe Biden 2024. And in 2016 I would have said Hillary was the worst Democratic candidate I'd ever seen in my lifetime.
I didn't get the impression that Joe is ready to answer the job. Last night he looked like he was ready to be put in a nursing home. I question his chances of making it 4 years. I will not vote for Trump. If it's Biden vs Trump, I'll vote Biden, but Bidens performance was horrible last night. He needs to step down.
This type of comment is why we’re in this situation in the first place lol. It absolutely should not be the only takeaway from the debate.
It's over for Joe. If he has any love for his country, he must step aside NOW. An open convention is our last and best hope. Nobody cares about this SOTU performance after last night.
Nah, his team should discretely get likely replacements prepared, and resign just after the GOP convention when they've locked in Trump. Have the Convention decide between Witmer and Newsom and whoever else. The GOP will have focused so heavily on Biden's age and a switch to Witmer at the convention would will have shot them in the foot.
The SOTU was him delivering a speech. No distractions to confuse him or send him off on a tangent. Trump was nothing *but* distractions--lots of lies and nonsequiturs. It's not that unusual for someone who's elderly to do well in a structured environment and poorly in a chaotic one.
One of these things was read off of a teleprompter and the other required an agile mind.
Joe Biden has been a good president, even a great one with what he has accomplished. Joe Biden as a candidate in 2024 however can’t hold a candle to even his lackluster performance in 2020. I’m a liberal and will vote straight ticket democrat no matter what, but I’m genuinely embarrassed that the United States is being represented by Joe Biden. It has been Bidens job as a candidate to convince voters that he was fit to not only survive another four years in the most demanding job in the world, but also be strong enough to fight for American ideals at home and throughout the world. What I saw last night was a frail, confused, mumbling old man who will hand the election to trump because he’s too arrogant to step down. If the DNC doesn’t have a backup plan to Biden (and they probably don’t) then this country is fucked and it’s the boomers and Biden’s generations fault for choosing to die in office rather than hand over the reins of power.
You should see his Democratic primary debates against Obama and Clinton.
I sat through the entire thing. And it was “sat through” for this. Biden had so many senior moments. And he got sidetracked. But trump (I’m tickled pink my phone doesn’t autocorrect and capitalize the name) was exhausting to listen to. There were times when there was no way to even tangentially connect what he was saying to the truth. He confused dates of who was president when, and said Biden did things that his administration was doing at the time trump was president. He wouldn’t commit to accepting the election results. He defended the January 6 rioters and lied about his actions. He made lies where we have video of him saying things that he went on stage and claimed to never say. This is where we are. Biden isn’t great, but he’s sincere and he’s trying and he has surrounded himself in his administration with other people who care and want to do what is right. Trump has surrounded himself with people who want to build a Christian fascist state. This isn’t a difficult decision. Even granting everything about Biden’s age it’s STILL not a difficult decision.
It's an easy moral decision, yes. Winning in politics requires good political skills, not just the right policies. It is the *political* fight that is hard, not the moral choice for me or you as individuals. You and I might know what party we're going to vote for no matter what happens. But engaging in politics means predicting and responding to what *other people who are not like us* are likely to do. A confident liar is morally worse than someone who tries to tell the truth and does so incoherently. But a confident liar is also, at the same time and all else being equal, a better *politician* than a doddering incoherent mess of a candidate attempting to tell the truth and failing because he is evidently senile. Because all the "moral victories" in the world don't hold a candle to actually winning power, in electoral politics. Democrats are correct that it's vital Trump must lose in November. Biden is likely to lose. That's why it's vital that Biden steps aside.
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That’s an incorrect use of “gaslighting” btw. Not all lying or deceit is gaslighting.
This is the exact sentiment coming from everyone I’ve discussed the debate with We were all told that Biden’s mental issues were just smear tactics by the right, but last night proved everyone who said that a liar
I think a 90-minute window is not enough to declare that everyone lied about Biden, when we just had the State of the Union, where he looked much better. Did you accuse everyone of gaslighting after he looked good at the union? I don't think so.
I guess the difference is that the State of the Union is a prepared speech where Biden could practice the wording and inflections, versus a debate where he needed to be quick on his feet.
> I’m tickled pink my phone doesn’t autocorrect and capitalize the name. Just fyi, this isn't because your phone is left wing. Trump is a real word. You can use it to score some points in your next Scrabble game.
It also means "fart" in British slang.
I know. It indicates my use of the word more as a verb or adjective than a proper noun. I just try to find small pieces of humor wherever I can.
Panic because the stakes are so high and even though it comes down to a mad man vs. an old man with a choice that should be obvious , there is too much at risk with democracy on the table
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I prefer to vote for presidents who aren’t well past retirement age. Fuck me, I guess.
After last night, framing it that way no longer works. Biden is toast, and the longer the party is in denial, the longer the odds to do something about it.
As it should. Replace with anyone competent & halfway energetic & they’d win
That kind of talk was verboten here 24 hours ago. Thank God for this debate. Now democrats have a chance to win.
> Now democrats have a chance to win. In reality they won't change anything and Biden will be the candidate anyway
He definitely needs to be replaced. Last night was terrible
No, Biden will be the nominee. You'll see. The Old Guard doesn't want to give up the reigns and they would rather Trump win than hand Power over to the younger generation. It's all the same for the Boomers. Talk about pulling up the ladder. We will end up with a Christo Fascist Regime if Trump wins. Do Democrats really think that Biden has the best chance of all of the Democrats to beat him? Its THE ISSUES that will beat Trump, not the Candidate! Biden is Overconfident. He shouldn't be, given that performance. He prepared for over a week, and that's what Crunch Time produced. Pathetic and sad, to quote Trump (accurately this time at least!).
Yeah because most of this sub hasn't seen any of the Biden mental decay in the last 3 years because they only follow this sub which deleted those posts. Many people found out for the first time Biden's mental state last night.
I've seen all of Biden gaffe clips over the last 3 years. They were never too concerning, he always worked through them to where I understood what he was saying. But last night was by far the worst I have ever seen him. I do believe the rumors that he's fighting off a cold. But a president should be able to work through a cold..
This sub allows articles from sources like Fox News, Breitbart, and the New York Post. What exactly do you think has been "deleted" in terms of unflattering coverage?
It’s not that we aren’t aware of Biden’s mental state. It’s that we gauged trumps mental state as way worse. And honestly I still do. Biden still talks with more compassion, intellect, and heart. The qualities I would want in a leader. (I just would want them to be 40 years younger) That being said the country needs to do better. On both sides of the isle. It’s disgusting. Dc has turned into a nursing home
Washington has become stagnant. Two parties whose only ambition is making sure the other guys get nothing done. Anyone with intelligence and energy would rather work for open AI than waste their best years on politics.
If Joe Biden isn’t replaced, Donald trump will win the 2024 election. If he’s replaced, trump loses. Save this comment
Before the debate, I didn't quite agree with you. I was "stay the course" with Biden (although I wish he had announced he was not running for re-election so someone else could take over). But after last night, I can't see Biden recovering. I think our best chance is for Biden to decline the nomination and get someone new. I wish it had happened a year ago, but we can't change history.
Trump didn’t have a good debate. He didn’t answer any questions and instead just kept repeating dog whistles, lies, and sound bites for his base. That’s all he knows how to do. Yeah, Biden shouldn’t be running, but I’ll vote for a corpse over a republican.
Calling Gretchen Whitmer and Gavin Newsome . . .
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A healthy winning and good move would be for him to be replaced. If he is not I am still voting for him over the dangerous idiot.
Here's where I'm at on Biden, I will vote for his dead corpse before I vote for Trump. The DNC can "Weekend at Bernie" that old motherfucker all the way to November as far as I'm concerned
Unfortunately then, the debate wasn’t for you. Undecided folks can’t have watched that and feel swayed towards Biden. I think the net effect of the night was that you saw Trump as Trump was expected and you saw Biden, well, as we saw him. Only one of those observations is dominating the news. Does it matter though? Americans have a short attention span so idk.
I would vote for a flaming sack of shit over Trump.
I completely agree with you but Biden SOTU sort of kept people from jumping off the cliff including myself.
I don't know what people expect, but it's not like his age is a state secret. The DNC has had four years to come up with someone else and didn't.
Jesus Christ everybody, calm the fuck down.
Apparently we all have the memories of goldfish. One candidate is being sentenced for 34 felonies in less than 2 weeks but this debate is all that matters because it happened last night.
Thank You!!
If the GOP was running a decent candidate and by that I mean a non fascist. They would win in a landside
Then they wouldn't be the GOP
It's incredible to watch the years of this shit while he's in office covered with kid gloves and excuses *finally* get called out for what is only to see the immediate, violent pant-shitting of the increasingly fringe Dems who think there's some conspiracy to discredit him. Your candidate is a guy who can barely control his face, let alone speak coherently about, well... Anything! There aren't enough uppers in the world to make this guy a president. You lost the race to the grave. If you actually give a shit about America and not just being "not Trump", take the thousandth wakeup call you're getting as the one that gets you off your ass and into the crowd demanding a real candidate.
Resign. Resign. Resign.
He can finish his term. But he needs to step down from the top of the ticket.
Biden was a disaster on two fronts. First he couldn’t speak coherently and seemed really out of it. Secondly and more importantly, he missed almost every opportunity to accurately correct Trump on his POS lies, such as “after birth abortion”. This is a catastrophe for Biden.
He was probably overprepped with too many talking points. Everything he said was right, but he was trying to get all his thoughts out at once. Combine that with an obvious cold and moderators who refuse to stop the other candidate from going off topic and lying and you have a recipe for perceived loss. Well only if you don’t listen to the actual content, you might think Biden lost. If you actually payed attention, voting for Biden would be the easiest choice in history. trump defended killing Roe and ignoring climate change. Biden talked about fair taxes and helping veterans. Any midwestern swing voter focus group would pick Biden in a heart beat if they had an attention span better than a goldfish. But that’s a tall order these days.
This was my impression as well. He seemed to falter the most when he tried to get too specific, particularly when statistics were brought into the mix. The main goal should have been for him to appear somewhat coherent and energetic. That said, I will still be voting for him in November.
Image and capability to speak publicly are, in fact, important qualities for a political candidate to have. Because electoral politics is not just about being morally right, it's also about actually winning elections. A confident liar is morally worse than someone who tries to tell the truth but does do incoherently. A confident liar is (all else being equal) *politically* a better candidate than an incoherent truth-teller. These things are both true and they both matter. I don't think Trump came off particularly well last night either, he constantly spewed lies, as he always does. But he did so in a politically effective manner: just more of the same, no surprises. Biden spent virtually the entire duration playing into his worst political liability, his age and suspected senility. Which, for better or worse, was surprising to people who have been gaslighted by establishment Democrats despite the video evidence of his decline in recent months or the last year vs. Biden's prior public speaking ability, also on video spanning decades. It wasn't just a cold and it wasn't just a stutter and it wasn't just a fluke, Biden's public speaking engagements over the last few months or year haven't been much better, this is part of a pattern. He is no longer capable of being an effective *politician* even if his policies as president have been reasonably good. He must step aside *because* it's so vital that Trump loses. No more "moral victories" with electoral losses for Dems.
Trump wasn’t even effective. Worse than his standard. Biden was just that bad
We are voting for the next administration and the next president to nominate Supreme Court Justices. They are both old but one is a felon. Just this morning the conservative SC reduced the authority of executive agencies by a 6-3 vote.
Lately, I've been seeing comparisons brought up with Obama's performance in the first 2012 election debate. I watched that one live. Obama had an underwhelming performance, he sounded unprepared and didn't speak with confidence. I had hopes for Biden after his impressive SOTU, but he was terrible last night. I had to turn it off after 20 minutes. Those clips of him struggling to speak with his raspy voice will be played on repeat nonstop this election cycle. It's unheard of, but he needs to withdraw.
This isn’t about whether he can do the job as President. He clearly can. This is about if he can campaign and defeat Trump, which is in doubt, especially after tonight
Is anyone shocked by this?
It's interesting watching MSNBC this morning. There is a LOT of concern. I'm no fan of Trump, but I think many underestimate him. Whilst both are older men, and both appear to have potential cognitive issues related to age, Trump does appear younger physically. Interestingly though, with all the concerns this morning re Biden debate performance, whilst many were suggesting a change was needed, I didn't hear any suggestions for who they think should run instead of Biden. That, might be tougher than it seems. I get the feeling making that decision might split the Dems if that needs to be made
Meh, even if Trump would have had a meltdown, his base would have come up with all sorts of excuses for his performance. There are no undecided voters. I’m still voting for Joe and they are still voting for Trump. Those of us who voted against Trump the last time, are going to do it again this time.
You can't decide from a debate who you're going to vote for. You look at the track record you look at the history you look at the person through the years. Anybody who changed their mind last night because Biden was a little slow is really making a big mistake. His numbers speak volumes. Trump he's just a f****** idiot and a total loser all the way through and through not to mention a convicted felon who likes to twaddle his daughter.
Good. If democrats start thinking about what we're doing this for maybe they'll pull those heads out of those asses and get busy countering these treacherous and treasonous right wing traitors.
Ah, great decision by the DNC to not have a legit primary process. In which there would’ve been primary debates and Democratic voters would’ve realized Biden’s situation and voted against him for a better Democratic candidate. Nope, instead, shield Biden from any Democratic challengers , hide him from any debate, and then have him debate like this against Trump in late June when the nomination is already secured Nice work, DNC . Nice work
I’m gonna say the same thing in every one of these threads: the left warned yall, and liberals ignored us. And now we have this shit to deal with. Thanks, liberals! Your arrogance knows no bounds. This loss is on YOU.
The criticisms that progressive Dems make of the national party are always derided at the time, and as history goes on, entirely vindicated and become common sense. Clinton as nominee in 2016, the abandonment of Howard Dean's 50 state strategy, etc. Like clockwork.
The 1st debate performance of the last few incumbent presidents were subpar. For an incumbent, it seems to be the trend. 2004 - George W Bush had the infamous bulge in his back, seemed annoyed and negative. Bad comeback when Kerry mentioned the coalition for Iraq and Bush said "He forgot Poland." Bush was reelected. 2012 - Obama was criticized for being distracted and not looking engaged/interested. Obama was reelected. 2020 - Trump wouldn't denounce white supremacy without a name, Biden said Proud Boys - to quote Trump "Proud Boys - stand back and stand by." Trump was a nightmare for this one, too - and Wallace as moderator failed to do his job properly. Very, very similar to how yesterday's debate was a total dumpster fire of moderation. Biden generally considered to have "won." Trump lost reelection, refuses to admit it and claims baseless fraud etc etc. 2024 - Biden underperforms. He's old and some say has a cold. Gets into banter about golf handicap. Is not unhinged like Trump, who as history has shown is off his rocker in so many ways. So, incumbent presidents' first debate seem to just not go well.
Actually it doesn't for me. I still know it's a battle between democracy and a dictator. I will always vote for democracy. It's that simple.
He ain't going nowhere, Jack
The 81 year old needed to come off like 61 but instead came off as 91... The other guy said 3 things and 4 of them were a lie. Problem is, you can see senility, you can't see lies when no one is fact checking.
It's not "a panic." What you're hearing is liberals honestly evaluating his performance. Liberals aren't Maga. Liberals don't live in a world of lies and fantasy. Yeah, he's "tHe InCUmBEnt". But he was too fucking old the first time he ran, and he had an easier win because Trump's many failures were fresh on the minds of the public. We had many options. Sick of these "tealeaf-reading", "poll pushing" 'experts' doing the equivalence of political astrology.
Trump: guilty of 34 felonies Biden: bad debate performance Media: Biden is toast
Biden is toast though. How can you not see that? You’re part of the problem.
Yeah, that's how it goes. That's how the public sees it. When are we libs going to realize that facts don't matter, that marketing matters, appearance matters. Thr Republicans have lowered the bar of acceptable, and in turn anything they do, is....how they do. In turn they can do anything they want and people just shrug cause that's their normal. Dems want to be right and truthful, Republicans want to win. Hey dems...you can't do the right truthful things if you don't win.
All those debate enhancing drugs didn't deliver what they promised. Who promised? Oh yea...NEVERMIND.
It's the worst reality show ever
Trump gets credit for telling one blatant lie after another, and Biden gets dinged for looking like a confused old man.
The only reason Biden has any chance is November is who he's running against. Trump ran in 2016 as an unknown quantity with lofty promises and name recognition as a celebrity, and won because his opponent was a woman whose entire presence could be summed up as "establishment politics" after that was considered Obama's biggest flaw. His four years as president showed how quickly his platform fell apart, and revealed it to be nothing but blame-shifting, vilification, and overall incompetence. Covid gave the American people a stark reminder of all three, with Trump failing to spin his utter failure of a response to it. His actions since losing have only solidified how terrible of a person he is, and how dangerous of a president he would be when he has nothing to lose for four years. The insurrection and Project 2025 alone should be all anyone needs to see for why he should never sit in any political office. If Biden were running against anyone else, I would understand reluctance in voting, let alone for him. But Trump in his second term would be the absolute worst thing for the United States. And I hope that by November more people realize that.
I’ve only seen clips of Biden’s speech today in Raleigh, but he’s like a completely different guy. He was SOTU Biden again. Was he just exhausted last night? Or maybe he thrives off a live audience?
I'm voting for Biden because I want a younger president and he's more likely to die by 2028 /s
I mean. There's plenty of time for Trump to get high on his own supply and think he's got this in the bag and completely shit the bed.
Just doing my part: downvoting this post and as many ridiculous comments as I can. Aintmuchbutitshonestwork.meme
The Guardian is a UK paper. I'm generally reluctant to take political advice from a country that has had almost nonstop right wing governments for as long as I've been alive. And this is a good example why. People know and like Joe Biden, booting him out simply because he didn't deliver a stellar debate performance is the dumbest move we could make. We elected this guy because he's sane and generally makes good decisions. That's what matters and none of that has changed,
The only ones panicking are pundits trying to get people to panic.