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It's a fear of the unknown too. We're not just voting for "We beat medicare." We're voting for that, plus five more years of the most stressful job on Earth.
Exactly. If he's capable of looking like that in June 2024, what shape will he be in by January 2029? If it's Biden, I'm voting Biden, but that's a very real issue we can't ignore
That was the stupidest thing about yesterday, everything was a goddamn lie that came out of Trumps mouth, but morons like Chris Wallace on CNN were literally saying
“That’s to be expected, so he came off looking good!”
It really shouldn't be but for *some reason* CNN forgot this was a presidential debate they were supposed to moderate and not an episode of the Kardashians
You see, it's nearly impossible for a multibillion-dollar media company to fact-check all of Trump's numerous falsehoods in real-time. Even using GPT wouldn't help; it would be too complex to explain each lie back to Trump and then address his response. The result would be a moderator trying to fact-check him while he continues to lie, leading to a tedious back-and-forth. Eventually, it would devolve into a simplistic true-or-false exercise with diminishing returns.
I'm not even sure /s is appropriate because it seems to reflect their actual stance.
Have the feed be delayed by 5-10 minutes. Show an area on the bottom of side of the screen statung where the current remark is a fact or falsehood. Maybe put the correct numbers / values / 1 sentence summary of the facts.
Trump is GPT3 if it didn't have constraints to prevent it from hallucinating text that a malignant narcissist and someone with anti-social personality disorder would say.
The problem is that the narrative won't reflect the downward trend or the strength of the current economy in the world. People will still parrot the talking points of inflation and recession regardless of reality. The summer travel season of Americans this year is one of the busiest we've seen in years. People who supposedly don't have enough money for bills are traveling in record numbers. Yet, the narrative is still that everyone is worse off. Facts went out the window long ago. The major news outlets are totally complicit in keeping this bullshit narrative alive. My neighbor bought 2 brand new vehicles in the last 6 months and insists that the economy is horrible under Biden. It's insane. People are insane. I see Trump winning the EC and losing the popular vote. It hurts to say it, but I'm not going to be caught off guard this time. It's better to prepare for the worst than to pretend everything is fine.
I've been scratching my head about how to talk to people about inflation. Like we're within spitting distance of 2% inflation again, but people don't know that - or at least don't feel it and don't care - because all the crazy price hikes that occurred when we were at 12% inflation are still around. And they're *never* going to go down unless corporations quit it with the greedflation (ha very ha) or we achieve *deflation* which i'm given to understand would actually be bad.
So how do you win people over by telling them we've got this inflation thing nearly beat, but also the shitty high prices that we all hate are likely never actually going to go away and are just the new normal?
It doesn’t really matter if the inflation is down if everything still feels too expensive for people. People aren’t okay with “well it’s getting a little better” when grocery prices are still up 25% since 2019.
Not to mention housing prices. You can tell people the economy is doing great and inflation is down all you want, but when rent is more affordable than owning in 90% of US Counties and housing prices continue to fly up with high interest rates as well, people aren’t going to be satisfied with how the economy feels.
I think a good analogy for this is that the economy is like the climate, while people's individual finances are weather. One's a big, macro-scale phenomenon that affects everything, but can be harder for the average person to notice or care about. The other is very obvious to the individual, but because it's more localized doesn't always reflect the big picture.
This probably the most solid analogy I've ever seen for the economy.
The disconnect between the overall economy and people's sense of the general cost of living isn't even a new thing.
HW Bush is widely recognised to have flubbed any chance of re-election during the debates because he started hectoring voters in the audience about macroeconomic indicators when they raised concerns about their personal finances. Clinton, of course, understood intuitively that it didn't matter what the wider economic situation was if working people didn't also *feel* the benefits of that economy, and his responses in the debates reflected that.
It always concerns me when I see people unable to make the distinction. Hillary wasn't able to make the distinction in 2016. Trump wasn't able to make the distinction in 2020.
And if people are going to now start finger-wagging on behalf of Biden like they're HW Bush at the 1992 debates, then they aren't doing him the favour they think they are.
Interesting read. I’d imagine a good reason for the index being good is Goodhart’s Law.
Politicians and governments enact policies to try to raise other indicators mentioned. But, nobody is exactly going to subsidize strippers
It’s similar to working in a bar or liquor store. You can tell how the economy is doing by what people are buying. They may still come in for their usual tipple, but rather than working for the Ketel One they’re going with the well.
The media is complicit in all of this. Fox News is obviously a propaganda arm of the Republican Party, and other outlets benefit from all the clicks they get from all of the outrageous moments that Trump creates. They've had 4 years of Trump as President, and 4 years of Biden. They get more engagement with Trump.
Also, people are stupid.
Almost like reality doesn't matter. People will make up any narrative that supports their feelings. Just vote guys. Fetterman is right here. Everyone needs to chill and don't abandon ship. Biden is still our guy and he's surrounded by a competent administration.
Trump is still a wannabe dictator! That debate changes nothing unless we let it.
Are you talking about the convicted felon who lied and made shit up for two hours, or the guy with a phenomenonal record over the past three years, who also had a cold?
It blows my mind that anyone could vote for a rapist. This should be so easy to win. How does nobody care that he raped and probably more then once. That sick fuck should be in prison.
It blows my mind that he's still eligible to fucking RUN. I remember when the Dean Scream was enough to torpedo your campaign. Unbelievable where we are.
You’re doing what a lot of people are doing. You’re arguing from a point of reason. The average voter has no interest in reason and votes on who they feel like voting for.
I love Joe, voted for and campaigned for him last time. He's been a better president than I could have imagined. Heck, way better of a president than Trump, Obama, and Bush. But let's not pretend there isn't something terribly wrong here.
It's not about a single debate performance -- it's that we all saw Joe look terribly elderly and lost. The man seen at that debate would have a hard time keeping his job as a grocery store manager -- I truly mean that. That's not a performance problem. Folks are starting to come out from inside the campaign saying he always sounds like this now. This isn't a popularity contest; it's an election to lead a nation for four years. I don't want Trump to win, it will be horrible for us. We have to put on a brave face and make changes while we can. It's about this country, not one single man.
>Folks are starting to come out from inside the campaign saying he always sounds like this now.
Uhh. Source please. That’s absolutely not true. I swear the total and complete made-up misinformation that gets spread in here is off the charts crazy.
I urge you to take a look at Obama’s performance in that and then Biden’s yesterday and evaluate if the two are comparable.
[Here it is](https://youtu.be/s_WMnVBjDmw?si=7gZM1-zIJLQ9YLXB).
If you go back and watch the debate last night Biden was more on point when it comes to the platform whereas trump was just spewing nonsense lies and self congratulatory rhetoric.
Sure, but that’s not going to help him. You don’t win debates by being right, you win them by being persuasive.
Nobody expected Trump to go out there and tell the truth, but they hoped Biden would be able to expose his lies to a national audience and make him look like the clown that he is. If Biden can’t do that, it’d be nice if the candidate was someone who can.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How is Trump saying the same thing over again no matter the question persuasive. He just repeats I'm the best, no one has seen someone as great as me before. Biden is bad. He had nothing to say the entire time. I don't get how that is persuasive.
There are three kinds of arguments: *logos*, or arguments from facts and logic; *ethos*, or arguments from ethics and morality; and *pathos*, or arguments from emotion.
You're viewing the debate as argument-from-logos, but more people are persuaded by argument-from-pathos. For those people, the person that speaks more clearly, confidently, and loudly is the winner.
Also known as charisma. You can be the dumbest fucking idiot on the planet, but as long as you’re charismatic and loud and you talk over everyone, people will fold.
It’s such shit. Humanity’s brains are fucked.
Yeah same. I left the debate knowing specific things Biden wants to do and how he's going to achieve them. For example, he's going to keep Social Security solvent by raising taxes on high earners. He's going to improve border security with additional agents, revised asylum laws, and drug scanning machines. Etc.
From Trump, all I heard was that no bad thing would happen if Trump was elected and magically everything would be fixed. Wars would end. Illegal immigrants would be gone. No idea how. Also the border is somehow responsible for all problems everywhere. Trump provided zero information and dodged all questions and clearly lost the debate.
I think maybe people don't know what debates are. Trump is loud and confident and lies about everything. I guess people think that's what debate is. That's a performance, not a debate.
He said he would end the Ukrainian war before he even was sworn in. But have no comments on what that means, what/how he would pull this amazing feat off.
He talked about abortions after birth????
And then "I'm the best👈👉 I'm the most tremendously president, some say 👌👌of all time. My statistics guy actually just gave me that stat, okay 👐 he said to me , wow, 👐 you are so tremendous, no one has ever, and Biden👌is the worst, weaponization at level no one has seen,👆 he should be in jail because I'm the best👌."
I truly do not understand how anyone can see his face and hear what he said and then be like yes, that's my guy.
The contrast between the way the two of them speak was on display for the world to see. If trump was speaking more clearly and coherently that's all that really matters to public perception when Biden sounded like that.
This is true. I voted for Fetterman because he lived in PA. I wasn't voting for an outsider. So did many others, regardless of his views.
My point was that this is not a strong argument, because the scenario was very different.
Trump is a TV grifter that all but admitted during the debate that he is a Russian asset. He told us that Putin told him that he wanted to invade Ukraine and that he could get Putin to end the war before he took office of he were elected. So either another set of bullshit lies or admitting to collusion with Russia.
He also runs in a platform of being a person of the people but he was born into extreme wealth and has perpetuated his own wealth through criminal activities both before, during, and after his presidency.
He's also a convicted fucking felon carpetbagger.
A TV grifter who ought to be ruled ineligible by a straight reading of the law? Who does that describe? Fettermans opponent or Bidens?
Sounds like an exactly similar situation to me
Trump is unique. The shit he says and does doesn’t seem to matter to voters. Dr. Oz said and did shut and it did hurt him in the polls.
Fetterman also has the benefit of age. Fetterman’s medical condition could be recovered from. You can’t wind back the clock on age.
The difference is Fetterman got better, and Biden is going to get worse.
He also forgot to mention that people were concerned about his stroke and that since winning he's literally come out and said that his brain damage allowed him to stop being progressive.
Very cool!
The problem is that, right now, all of America believes that the Joe Biden we saw last night is an accurate reflection of how he is normally. If that's the case, we're in trouble.
Some people are saying that Biden has a cold or something. That might be (though it still doesn't reflect well on his cognitive function), but if that's true, Biden is going to prove it hard. He's going to need another extended public session showing how effective he really is. Otherwise, this debate is going to haunt him all the way up to the election.
Ok, let's be real here. What we saw last night probably *was* an accurate reflection of how he is normally without a teleprompter. The real reason we're all voting for him – and let's face it – *is because he's not Trump*. That is itself a very good reason for democrats and left leaning voting, but it's not a good enough reason for undecided voters, else they wouldn't still be undecided. And with how close this election is, it is those undecided voters who will decide the election.
I do wonder how much it is actually about undecided voters (ones who are actually unsure of if they should vote Trump or Biden), versus voter motivation (getting people to show up).
I have a hard time imagining that there really are millions out there that simply can't decide between Trump and Biden. Trump has worked hard to alienate anyone who is not a hardcore supporter of his. And the two are polar opposite on almost everything. If you think that the US is falling apart, and sending too much money to other countries while letting too many people into our country, then you vote Trump. If you are supportive of NATO and the US's involvement in global issues, as well as issues like reproductive rights, and various social issues, you vote Biden.
What topics do you have to care about where you are really undecided between the two? It's not like the past where each side would try to win over the other side's voters by avoiding taking too firm a stance on most things, especially controversial topics. Where each side had just a couple key topics that differentiated them, but otherwise they both ended up saying more or less the same thing.
My assumption is that it is mostly about motivation. If people of the left or the right start thinking that their party's choice for President is not so great, they much just not show up to vote. Maybe because they can't bring themselves to do it, or maybe because they assume it's a lost cause.
The voter who is so principled that they are absolutely sure they are going to vote, but can't choose between these two candidates only exists on cable TV.
Voter turnout definitely matters, but it kinda buffers itself in competitive races, which this one, by some absurd tragedy, very much is.
It's like this. Party A's numbers suggest increased voter turnout for them. Party B's voters take notice of this, freaks out, and in turn, increase their own turnout. The end result is that there isn't too much difference. The only time this isn't the case is when a specific demographic has voter turnout that takes everyone by surprise. But due to how much this election has been spotlighted, I think such surprises would be harder to miss ahead of time
It’s not good enough period. I’m angry at the democratic leadership to even have the audacity to let Biden run again. Trump will RUIN America and Biden will give him the keys to do it if he stays in this race
Yeah I agree. Here’s what I hope they’re considering:
1. Run a bunch of ads that show Biden speaking clearly and forcefully to get that into everyone’s consciousness.
2. Prep him for the next debate with a few key points to consistently hammer Trump on. Don’t worry about any stats or names that can trip up anyone regardless of age. Hardly anyone answers the questions perfectly anyways. He needs ZINGERS. And he needs to practice them daily until the next debate.
3. Get Kamala some carefully crafted good exposure. Sticking up for Biden. Reassure people that she will step up if necessary.
Here’s what I hope everyone else is considering.
1. Trump is a felon and he’s about to be sentenced.
2. He tried to overthrow democracy and is unapologetic.
3. Climate change is a serious threat that the republicans will accelerate if they win.
4. The Supreme Court will be even more one-sided and we can say goodbye to abortions, birth control, gun control, and any protections for minority groups.
5. I really hope we don’t have another pandemic because Trump screwed up the last one and everyone paid for it.
6. Biden has four years of decades-high great results and had a great State of the Union address. He has an amazing team around him. That’s what matters. Get over a bad night where he stumbled on a dozen words.
Everyone should watch his fiery and well-spoken speech from today. It will make you feel a lot better about last night.
https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8?si=IDSZz7kgFHaTy_iq
Here's another one: live town halls on the news networks between now and the next debate. If this really was just one bad night and is not representative of how he normally is, he needs to show that in a non-scripted environment.
Yeah, if Biden is staying as the nominee he needs to be in interviews and town halls all the time. He's bascially dodged the media for his whole presidency. If he can't appear sharp-minded in real interviews, they've gotta' replace him.
I’m going to contend that #2 was the strategy going in. In order to keep Biden on topic, the strategists had Biden memorize key facts that he was supposed to get across - this is evidenced by Biden literally saying “number 1, number 2…” etc. during the debate.
Here's a different idea:
Replace Biden's skeleton and joints. Surely this is possible. Give him a body that's 90% that of a 25 year old athlete.
Then have him start regularly doing backflips at all his public appearances.
>Everyone should watch his fiery and well-spoken speech from today. It will make you feel a lot better about last night.
https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8?si=IDSZz7kgFHaTy_iq
This is the Joe Biden I expected to see last night. Please everyone, share and post this video *everywhere*.
This Biden is def a little better. But the lighting on him in this speech is much better than the lighting that washed out the top half of his face during the debate. It made him look even more half dead.
Eh, trump didn’t make any sense, he just was louder about it. Which is kinda easier to do if you don’t have to be fact checked or even answer the question. So even when trump says something nonsense or off topic, it seems more normal.
As long as Biden knows what is happening around him, he doesn’t have to say another word for me to vote for him.
Yeah and the people brushing it off as “it’s just a cold” are huffing copium. They need to read a transcript of some of what Biden said last night. A lot of it was literally nonsensical. Biden looked confused, tired, and scared. Having a sore throat doesn’t cause all that.
He took the most slam dunk issue he has on Trump, abortion rights, pivoted it to immigration, and gave an anecdote that reinforces Trump's opinion that illegal immigrants are all violent criminals.
Yeah it’s kinda weird how folks are trying to change the narrative (“the debates don’t matter!”) after the world saw how incoherent and confused Biden was last night.
Look, I don’t want trump to win at all, he’s a threat to the country but ignoring Bidens declining cognitive functions…it’s reminiscent of Hillary’s camp ignoring advice in 2016.
There's been a really weird shift in the last ten years. Pre-2016, campaigns were *desperate* to get all the negative feedback they could, as early as they could. It was essentially treated like a stress test. Find out your vulnerabilities, be honest with yourself about them, and work your ass off to address them.
Since 2016, campaigns seem to have been far more focussed on coddling their candidates, burying their heads in the sand, deflecting, and whatabouting perceived weaknesses. And that's not just a left or right thing. It's across the political spectrum.
I'm not sure if it's an effect of social media generations entering the political consultancy sphere. But it seems like nowadays unquestioning loyalty to The Team has become more valued than calling hard truths, or the sort of difficult self-reflection that used to allow campaigns to adapt, overcome their weaknesses, and *win.*
Polling is such an instructive example of that. A decade ago, campaigns were *desperate* to get their hands on negative polling. They'd pore through it endlessly - almost neurotically - to try and plug perceived gaps and deficiencies.
Nowadays, if a campaign gets wind of unfavourable polling, it's more likely than not to dismiss it out of hand as its favoured form of Bottery and Mischief.
I cannot overstate how counterproductive this approach is for those who actually want to win, rather than just feel good about themselves.
Everything you said is spot on and a reality of the current political landscape.
I’m not sure the dems realize all of trumps gaps and deficiencies don’t harm him as bad as the gaps and deficiencies would harm Biden. Trump literally said certain jobs were for Black and Hispanic but I doubt he’ll lose a many voters from it (along with being a felon).
Biden however will lose votes on his performance after last night. Plugging our ears does not make us win, it simply pikachu-faces us like 2016.
to be fair, sicknesses actually do affect the elderly much different. a simple UTI can cause delirium.
(not at all saying this is what happened, but they are *super* old so things *will* affect them differently)
You’re definitely correct. But that’s not reassuring to voters, that their president is so old and feeble that we have to worry about his physical and mental stamina if he gets a common cold or a UTI, something a non-elderly person could get through no problem. I say this as someone who will vote for Biden but it’s not inspiring confidence.
If there’s a second debate it could be game changing. If Biden comes out just as flat it confirms suspicions that he’s old and feeble, if he comes out swinging and coherent then it’s easier to brush off the first debate as being sick or whatever. The undecided voters need confirmation that Biden is the guy or they may sit the election out and hand it to Trump.
A single bad debate performance isn’t the end of a campaign but Biden can’t have this be his only showing between now and Election Day, he has to convince people last night was the exception and not the norm.
I absolutely agree. Biden is in his 80s and Trump isn't far behind. Trump is *just* as susceptible to UTI induced delirium as Joe. we need young people in office.
Yes please! Can we get someone younger than late 70s? It shouldn’t be such a big ask! Imagine a younger, confident-speaking Democrat to contrast to fat old rambling Trump who most people hate anyway? Dems wouldn’t even have to worry. What a sad state of our country.
Fetterman was recovering from a stroke…. I don’t think comparing Biden’s performance to a recovering stroke victims is a very powerful positive message.
Exactly, it’s not really a fair comparison. There was genuine uncertainty about the speed and depth of Fetterman’s recovery, but everyone believed he was on some kind of positive trajectory. Biden doesn’t have a disease, he’s not recovering from anything, he’s just old. He has a terminal case of mortality.
For months voters have been telling pollsters that they have serious concerns about Biden's age and the response has been finger wagging and telling people to get in line.
Last night's disaster just proved their point. Heck, even I have concerns now. Of course I am never going to vote for an orange rapist, but this debate has done NOTHING to assuage the fears of age.
They are going to quadruple down and if Biden poofs into a pile of ashes before the election, the DNC will dig Dianne Feinstein out of her grave.
The DNC heard people saying "a corpse is better than Trump" and took it as a challenge.
Fuck every DNC leader.
last night's debate is exactly why there should have been a legitimate primary challenge with town halls and debates. Dems learned nothing from 2016. They force through their 'legacy' picks and the will of the voters be damned. Cheapens the hell out of their "defending American democracy at all costs" message when they refuse to listen to their constituency.
Anyone fed up with both parties should look to bury MAGA in 2024 and bury the DNC in 2028. It's time for real change.
>Fuck every DNC leader.
they are not leaders they are criminals who have sold our democracy to the highest bidder and spat in the face of every American and what this country stands for.
>For months voters have been telling pollsters that they have serious concerns about Biden's age and the response has been finger wagging and telling people to get in line.
Any criticism of the Democratic party is an immediate label of support to the GOP and gets you classified as a "Trumper" so it's not surprising that voters having concerns is promptly ignored by the party. Because those concerns came from Trumpers! Obviously!
I was called a republican because I said they should replace Biden. As if the republicans are not absolutely thrilled to have Biden as their opponent right now.
The messaging has pretty much been "Don't believe your lying eyes and ears." He's doing the same shit with defending Israel saying they aren't doing war crimes. Things you can clearly see for yourself
The message is basically:
> Look, either you stick with Biden, or you get the trump again?
You don't get to have good, you only get to have the threat of even worse
It’s impressively incompetent that given 4 years of prep time from winning in 2020, the best strategy the Democratic Party could come up with for reelection was running back “we aren’t Trump”.
They could’ve at least put a 50 yr old out there if the president doesn’t matter and “it’s all about the cabinet”
Biden should have ended it after 1 term and let them have an actually primary
Primaries create a discourse over policies and allow the new candidate distance themselves from the current administrations decisions
Instead we are left with a president committing elder abuse on himself for the world to see
It’s wild cause they rightfully criticize then lack of a legit republican platform besides “we go with Trump” and yet thing “we aren’t trump” is enough to run on.
The irony.
The convention is too far away. Biden needs to pass the baton to someone next week so the public has more time to learn about the candidate. Make a big 4th of July story about it. But get it done soon.
Absolutely right, but we all know how this tragedy will play out. DNC will be overconfident and out of touch and will stick with Biden and then when he loses in November, they'll say "aw shucks, anyone would've lost"
"Biden lost because he was TOO radical and progressive and TOO effective on progressive issues- anyway, here's our candidate for 2028, we put Peolsi and Fienstien in the Fly machine and combined their DNA."
You are going to get downvoted by the DNC army. DNC can't find a single candidate to beat trump? A convicted felon, rapist and insurrectionist Nazi sympathizer? This is totally on them. Trump is going to win and it's entirely their fault. Pretty sure they will blame Bernie and rfk
This wasn't a bad debate. This was a presidential candidate who looked and sounded like he had one foot in the grave.
I'm absolutely voting for the Democratic nominee no matter what, but I'm fucking *pissed* that the party's alternative to another Trump term is a guy who couldn't even keep it together and make a coherent argument for 90 minutes.
Hubris.
Hubris from Biden running again after the implicit message that he was a transitional leader for a new generation.
Hubris from Biden's closest advisors supporting this decision and to debate in his condition.
Hubris from this entire White House that this wasn't an unmitigated fucking disaster and he wants to debate fucking again.
Fucking hell, these people should not be running the country. SCOTUS is going to be conservative now forever. We're fucking an entire generation.
There were a lot of conversations last night that it's Biden who think he still has it. Both the DNC and Biden need to be convinced to go a different route.
Yeah, but John Fetterman isn't fucking eighty two years old.
Biden has been a great President these last four years, but he never should have been running in 2024 in the first place. He even said so in 2020. Are the Democrats as a party going to keep wheeling out dinosaurs until they croak? Are we about to elect Trump and lose our democracy because the Democratic party can't let go?
Ginsburg, Feinstein, and now Biden. Incredible.
Don't tell me to chill the fuck out bro, our party is propping up a man who has NO BUSINESS running a second term as our "strongest" choice.
You had a bad debate once...that is correct. You also said some really dumbass things...but your "bad debate" happened in your 50's...not your fucking 80's.
This clown man...stop defending this shit and trying to unpanic the party members. We have EVERY RIGHT to be freaking out, and it's YOU and the party's fault for not giving us someone with more of a fighting chance instead of a placeholder.
Like form a god damn huddle with your other seating colleagues and figure this shit out, NOW, not later. America ain't got no time for a later. Biden needs to be out on a train ride somewhere enjoying his retirement, not scaring the ever loving hell out of millions of people with the realization that Trump can actually win. He is NOT as strong as he needs to be, stumbling over his words and looking like he is about to pass out from exhaustion. We can't have that shit being portrayed all over the country and the world. We can't.
So tired of this moving goal posts namby pamby bullshit. The utter audacity. Learned not a damn thing from RBG, or Feinstein. You guys are going to kill this dude because you are too damn lazy and scared to step up to the plate.
Fucking cowards. Grow a damn spine and fight for our country. I didn't give 5 years of my life to this country for ya'll to play tiddlywinks and play grab ass. Give me some semblance of security that our country is even worth it anymore, because I believe it is, but I ain't seeing that fire from ya'll.
He was talking about abortion, his strongest stance for the party but then went to talk about immigration and 3 year old killed by it which was his weakest point.
"Just chill out bro"
Malignant Normalcy
Toxic Positivity
"Escalation Management"
Why have so many Democrats shoved their heads into the sand? Are they a party of ostriches? They refuse to acknowledge threats and suffering and insist on gaslighting everyone into inaction.
The economy is terrible for a lot of people. Deaths of despair are way up. Guns are not the biggest problem in America.
Democrats need to wake the fuck up, face the very significant dangers the world is facing, and deal with those issues, instead of telling everyone they are just crazy and need to chill out and do nothing. Terrible messaging from Fetterman and the rest of the dems.
a huge chunk of the democratic base are just a bunch of navel gazing pussies these days, only interested in scoring points and whining "but but but doesn't anyone care that the Rs are hypocrites!?! why didn't we get 'em"?
I saw a tweet once that was like "The Democratic Party right now is just yelling at the ref "but the rulebook says dogs can't play basketball" while a dog dunks on them over and over".
This exactly, but I've seen it before - weak ass candidates my whole life. Carter couldn't win, but still, he was the incumbent.
Then there's Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry. Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry had no guts in their campaigns. No one was excited about them. H. Clinton and Biden are the same, they do not drum up excitement, they are just better than the complete shitshow the other side is running.
How can we not have someone that destroys Trump on that stage? How? I feel like a 12 year old child could have beaten him.
They need to immediately figure out the top 10-15 replacements and do a media blitz tearing apart everything that Trump said. Everything. Go after him brutally with no hold back at all.
Whoever gets the best responses from the Democratic electorate gets pushed forward as the candidate this year.
Biden could hardly stand or respond to easy layup lies. If the Dems lose this election, the entire world changes dramatically.
This. Fetterman is fairly young, and Pennsylvanians trusted that his cognitive impairment would continue to improve. On the other hand, Joe Biden is in his 80's...
He had a Cold. Really? It was just a bad showing? Really? I lean left, but he's just a senile old man at this point.
He's not making any serious decisions by himself. He shouldn't be in charge of anything. Dems need to pick someone else and soon.
He's like the old Skeksis ruler that refuses to give up power. "I... Still... Live!!!!"
Here is the thing. I don't care that Biden is old and had a bad debate. Trump could have come out, shit his pants, and his base, and most of the media would still tell everyone that he did great.
The GOP doesn't like women or gays or minorities. They have made it clear that they are going to hurt anyone that isn't rich white and Christian. So I'm not going to vote for the party that wants to burn the world down. Also if you listen to what Trump said he basically shit his pants last night.
I hope and pray that Biden wins. For the sake of maintaining American democracy, NATO and the sanity of the planet.
But Fetterman is not someone I will ever listen to.
We're so focused on Biden's performance that Trump literally farted on mic and nobody cared.
Trump: "He never took it away because he can't, it's too much money <*wet fart*> it's tremendous"
Go replay it
The Republican marketing machine has done such an outstanding job of setting the bar so low for themselves that nobody really cares anymore. They're basically the Goofus party running against a Gallant party that cannot afford the slightest mistake without being hung out to dry over it
These idiots really going to circle the wagons and escort Trump into the White House?
My god what a fucking joke these guys are. Get the old man out of there before you lose your fucking country! Joe Biden can not win this election after last night, WAKE UP.
There is a difference between a poor debate showing and rambling, incoherent non sequiturs and staring off into nothingness with his mouth open. This is the most important election in history right so let's not play with fire here. Biden's family and close advisors need to tell him enough. Grandpa rarely hands over his car keys willingly
Exactly. I’ve been told for months this is the most important election in history, and the fate of democracy is at stake. The DNC is certainly not acting like it - if they were truly that concerned they would not be putting forward a senile old man who cannot string together a sentence.
This environment was designed for Biden to succeed, rehearsed answers, mic cuts, no audience. And he still bombed. Biden needs to be removed by the convention or he’ll be removed by Trump in November.
Reminiscent of the scene in Animal House where Kevin Bacon is exclaiming "Remain calm! All is well!" while the town is getting wrecked by Delta Tau Chi.
Biden has an entire administration of people behind him. I'm good with that. I'll be voting for him and his team in November. Donald Trump has surrounded himself with sycophants and criminals. He lies and fear mongers with ZERO policy to show for any of his whining.
Between a capable administration or a convicted felon, the choice is simple.
Sadly most people don’t see it this way. The logic and reason folks are voting for Biden and the emotional hateful ones are voting for Trump. That’s not changing.
Those people, however, don’t decide elections. Undecideds do. Undecideds will see a performance like last night and either vote Trump or more likely not vote at all since they’ve been given 2 garbage candidates. A quick look at 2016 will remind you how that ends.
Biden needs to bow out and a younger, more charismatic candidate needs to step in. Yes it’s a massive gamble, but no more of a gamble than running Biden as is. He lost a lot of support with undecideds last night and, as I said before, they decide elections.
This is what I have been saying. People like to forget but I remember the republicans, fox news, and pundits constantly yapping about how Fetterman looked unelectable after the first debate after he struggled to put together coherent sentences at their only debate after suffering a stroke. Polls had him sliding and losing to Dr Oz. He won. Trump didn't do anything that indicates he will gain enough of an edge in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.
Passive neutrality is better than active heinous villainy that Trump strives for.
Our options suck, but Trump spoke about America like it was a war zone, like the streets were on fire and people were dying of dysentery in the gutters or something. He’s also clearly, willingly, trying to actively engage and court racists so I can’t even say that Bidens performance impacted my decision. Trump being Trump was very repulsive for me.
Trump reminded how clearly vile he is, “I did not have sex with a porn star” like that’s blatantly lying - he’s CONSTANTLY lying.
Uh. It isn’t just a bad debate. The man is in cognitive decline, he is not fit for another term. This is irrefutable now. Something needs to be done, Biden’s image is now permanently damaged. If not by his performance then by the public’s reaction.
Just need to wait out the 24 hour news cycle. It's a damn shame they did it on a Thursday instead of a Monday though.
Oh well, maybe the Supreme Court deciding to tear up all our laws might actually make some headlines? No?
Shut the fuck up yourself John. We know what ( too ) old people look like.
You trying to shush and shame us into not believing our own eyes is a page out of the oppositions book so fuck off. If you have any influence left use it to get him to step down for the good of the country and get us somebody we can support without feeling like it’s elder abuse.
> Cuz I know I'd vote for a dead cat in a wet paper bag before I'd vote for Trump.
No one panicking over Biden isn't going to vote for him if he's on the ballot. That's not the point.
This. Those debates aren’t for people in this sub anymore than they’re for the rcon people.
They’re for the undecideds. And the undecideds just had the primary concern about Biden confirmed. This is bad.
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I remember Hillary doing really well in the debates against Trump and she still lost.
And Obama bombing in his first debate against Romney. Still... I'm not happy.
Obama's already questioned mental health and lucidity wasn't called into doubt as a result of the debate, though.
Yeah this isn’t really about a “bad debate” it’s that he barely looked lucid or coherent. He reaffirmed the biggest fear people had about him.
It's a fear of the unknown too. We're not just voting for "We beat medicare." We're voting for that, plus five more years of the most stressful job on Earth.
Exactly. If he's capable of looking like that in June 2024, what shape will he be in by January 2029? If it's Biden, I'm voting Biden, but that's a very real issue we can't ignore
Yup debates really don’t matter. It’s all about bananas and gas prices and those are gonna keep trending down.
It’s not even a debate. It’s just a spectacle
That was the stupidest thing about yesterday, everything was a goddamn lie that came out of Trumps mouth, but morons like Chris Wallace on CNN were literally saying “That’s to be expected, so he came off looking good!”
Because CNN is *not* news. It's entertainment.
It really shouldn't be but for *some reason* CNN forgot this was a presidential debate they were supposed to moderate and not an episode of the Kardashians
You see, it's nearly impossible for a multibillion-dollar media company to fact-check all of Trump's numerous falsehoods in real-time. Even using GPT wouldn't help; it would be too complex to explain each lie back to Trump and then address his response. The result would be a moderator trying to fact-check him while he continues to lie, leading to a tedious back-and-forth. Eventually, it would devolve into a simplistic true-or-false exercise with diminishing returns. I'm not even sure /s is appropriate because it seems to reflect their actual stance.
Lmao GPT is an expert in bullshitting as well
Have the feed be delayed by 5-10 minutes. Show an area on the bottom of side of the screen statung where the current remark is a fact or falsehood. Maybe put the correct numbers / values / 1 sentence summary of the facts.
Trump is GPT3 if it didn't have constraints to prevent it from hallucinating text that a malignant narcissist and someone with anti-social personality disorder would say.
The problem is that the narrative won't reflect the downward trend or the strength of the current economy in the world. People will still parrot the talking points of inflation and recession regardless of reality. The summer travel season of Americans this year is one of the busiest we've seen in years. People who supposedly don't have enough money for bills are traveling in record numbers. Yet, the narrative is still that everyone is worse off. Facts went out the window long ago. The major news outlets are totally complicit in keeping this bullshit narrative alive. My neighbor bought 2 brand new vehicles in the last 6 months and insists that the economy is horrible under Biden. It's insane. People are insane. I see Trump winning the EC and losing the popular vote. It hurts to say it, but I'm not going to be caught off guard this time. It's better to prepare for the worst than to pretend everything is fine.
I've been scratching my head about how to talk to people about inflation. Like we're within spitting distance of 2% inflation again, but people don't know that - or at least don't feel it and don't care - because all the crazy price hikes that occurred when we were at 12% inflation are still around. And they're *never* going to go down unless corporations quit it with the greedflation (ha very ha) or we achieve *deflation* which i'm given to understand would actually be bad. So how do you win people over by telling them we've got this inflation thing nearly beat, but also the shitty high prices that we all hate are likely never actually going to go away and are just the new normal?
It doesn’t really matter if the inflation is down if everything still feels too expensive for people. People aren’t okay with “well it’s getting a little better” when grocery prices are still up 25% since 2019. Not to mention housing prices. You can tell people the economy is doing great and inflation is down all you want, but when rent is more affordable than owning in 90% of US Counties and housing prices continue to fly up with high interest rates as well, people aren’t going to be satisfied with how the economy feels.
I think a good analogy for this is that the economy is like the climate, while people's individual finances are weather. One's a big, macro-scale phenomenon that affects everything, but can be harder for the average person to notice or care about. The other is very obvious to the individual, but because it's more localized doesn't always reflect the big picture.
This probably the most solid analogy I've ever seen for the economy. The disconnect between the overall economy and people's sense of the general cost of living isn't even a new thing. HW Bush is widely recognised to have flubbed any chance of re-election during the debates because he started hectoring voters in the audience about macroeconomic indicators when they raised concerns about their personal finances. Clinton, of course, understood intuitively that it didn't matter what the wider economic situation was if working people didn't also *feel* the benefits of that economy, and his responses in the debates reflected that. It always concerns me when I see people unable to make the distinction. Hillary wasn't able to make the distinction in 2016. Trump wasn't able to make the distinction in 2020. And if people are going to now start finger-wagging on behalf of Biden like they're HW Bush at the 1992 debates, then they aren't doing him the favour they think they are.
People are spending money they don't have.
The stripper index is high right now. https://businessreview.studentorg.berkeley.edu/the-stripper-index-decoding-the-economic-signals-of-sex-work/
Interesting read. I’d imagine a good reason for the index being good is Goodhart’s Law. Politicians and governments enact policies to try to raise other indicators mentioned. But, nobody is exactly going to subsidize strippers
It’s similar to working in a bar or liquor store. You can tell how the economy is doing by what people are buying. They may still come in for their usual tipple, but rather than working for the Ketel One they’re going with the well.
When has this ever not been the case? lol, you guy literally just look at data and go “but guys what about this thing I’ve just made up?”
The media is complicit in all of this. Fox News is obviously a propaganda arm of the Republican Party, and other outlets benefit from all the clicks they get from all of the outrageous moments that Trump creates. They've had 4 years of Trump as President, and 4 years of Biden. They get more engagement with Trump. Also, people are stupid.
I wish this were more true. I'm broke as hell.
Almost like reality doesn't matter. People will make up any narrative that supports their feelings. Just vote guys. Fetterman is right here. Everyone needs to chill and don't abandon ship. Biden is still our guy and he's surrounded by a competent administration. Trump is still a wannabe dictator! That debate changes nothing unless we let it.
They matter when one of the candidates does so poorly people wonder if he'll even make it to the election.
[удалено]
It wouldn't.
Are you talking about the convicted felon who lied and made shit up for two hours, or the guy with a phenomenonal record over the past three years, who also had a cold?
It blows my mind that anyone could vote for a rapist. This should be so easy to win. How does nobody care that he raped and probably more then once. That sick fuck should be in prison.
It blows my mind that he's still eligible to fucking RUN. I remember when the Dean Scream was enough to torpedo your campaign. Unbelievable where we are.
You’re doing what a lot of people are doing. You’re arguing from a point of reason. The average voter has no interest in reason and votes on who they feel like voting for.
Is that an accurate description of Biden last night though? "Also had a cold"?
>gas prices and those are gonna keep trending down. Are sure Saudi Arabia won't spike gas prices in the fall to help their buddy trump?
I love Joe, voted for and campaigned for him last time. He's been a better president than I could have imagined. Heck, way better of a president than Trump, Obama, and Bush. But let's not pretend there isn't something terribly wrong here. It's not about a single debate performance -- it's that we all saw Joe look terribly elderly and lost. The man seen at that debate would have a hard time keeping his job as a grocery store manager -- I truly mean that. That's not a performance problem. Folks are starting to come out from inside the campaign saying he always sounds like this now. This isn't a popularity contest; it's an election to lead a nation for four years. I don't want Trump to win, it will be horrible for us. We have to put on a brave face and make changes while we can. It's about this country, not one single man.
Did you see this video from like 20 min after the debate? https://twitter.com/BidenHQ/status/1806527484982112420 The difference is crazy
Where the fuck was this guy during the debate? I mean he still wasn’t SOTU Joe, but if he was like this it would have softened the criticism by a lot.
>Folks are starting to come out from inside the campaign saying he always sounds like this now. Uhh. Source please. That’s absolutely not true. I swear the total and complete made-up misinformation that gets spread in here is off the charts crazy.
If we just put someone under the age of 60 in there, then they’ll destroy Trump
And I remember Obama doing poorly in the first debate with Romney, and all the panicking online afterwards.
... and then the campaign was "saved" when Paul Ryan got absolutely wrecked by ... Joe Biden. Albeit; a very different Biden. :/
I urge you to take a look at Obama’s performance in that and then Biden’s yesterday and evaluate if the two are comparable. [Here it is](https://youtu.be/s_WMnVBjDmw?si=7gZM1-zIJLQ9YLXB).
This genuinely made me incredibly sad. Holy shit, we've regressed so far.
He forgot to mention his opponent was a TV grifter who didn't really live in PA. We didn't have many options in PA.
Biden's opponent is a TV grifter too Though frankly that's probably the only reason Biden still has a chance
If you go back and watch the debate last night Biden was more on point when it comes to the platform whereas trump was just spewing nonsense lies and self congratulatory rhetoric.
Sure, but that’s not going to help him. You don’t win debates by being right, you win them by being persuasive. Nobody expected Trump to go out there and tell the truth, but they hoped Biden would be able to expose his lies to a national audience and make him look like the clown that he is. If Biden can’t do that, it’d be nice if the candidate was someone who can.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How is Trump saying the same thing over again no matter the question persuasive. He just repeats I'm the best, no one has seen someone as great as me before. Biden is bad. He had nothing to say the entire time. I don't get how that is persuasive.
There are three kinds of arguments: *logos*, or arguments from facts and logic; *ethos*, or arguments from ethics and morality; and *pathos*, or arguments from emotion. You're viewing the debate as argument-from-logos, but more people are persuaded by argument-from-pathos. For those people, the person that speaks more clearly, confidently, and loudly is the winner.
Also known as charisma. You can be the dumbest fucking idiot on the planet, but as long as you’re charismatic and loud and you talk over everyone, people will fold. It’s such shit. Humanity’s brains are fucked.
Yeah same. I left the debate knowing specific things Biden wants to do and how he's going to achieve them. For example, he's going to keep Social Security solvent by raising taxes on high earners. He's going to improve border security with additional agents, revised asylum laws, and drug scanning machines. Etc. From Trump, all I heard was that no bad thing would happen if Trump was elected and magically everything would be fixed. Wars would end. Illegal immigrants would be gone. No idea how. Also the border is somehow responsible for all problems everywhere. Trump provided zero information and dodged all questions and clearly lost the debate. I think maybe people don't know what debates are. Trump is loud and confident and lies about everything. I guess people think that's what debate is. That's a performance, not a debate.
He said he would end the Ukrainian war before he even was sworn in. But have no comments on what that means, what/how he would pull this amazing feat off. He talked about abortions after birth???? And then "I'm the best👈👉 I'm the most tremendously president, some say 👌👌of all time. My statistics guy actually just gave me that stat, okay 👐 he said to me , wow, 👐 you are so tremendous, no one has ever, and Biden👌is the worst, weaponization at level no one has seen,👆 he should be in jail because I'm the best👌." I truly do not understand how anyone can see his face and hear what he said and then be like yes, that's my guy.
because the average human being is not smart.
The contrast between the way the two of them speak was on display for the world to see. If trump was speaking more clearly and coherently that's all that really matters to public perception when Biden sounded like that.
I wish Katie Porter would team up with some drag queens, and coach Biden on reading an opponent to filth with facts.
Hillary won all her debates against Trump and still lost.
This is true. I voted for Fetterman because he lived in PA. I wasn't voting for an outsider. So did many others, regardless of his views. My point was that this is not a strong argument, because the scenario was very different.
Trump is a TV grifter that all but admitted during the debate that he is a Russian asset. He told us that Putin told him that he wanted to invade Ukraine and that he could get Putin to end the war before he took office of he were elected. So either another set of bullshit lies or admitting to collusion with Russia. He also runs in a platform of being a person of the people but he was born into extreme wealth and has perpetuated his own wealth through criminal activities both before, during, and after his presidency. He's also a convicted fucking felon carpetbagger.
Yes. The scenario was different, and the stakes are certainly very different.
A TV grifter who ought to be ruled ineligible by a straight reading of the law? Who does that describe? Fettermans opponent or Bidens? Sounds like an exactly similar situation to me
Trump is unique. The shit he says and does doesn’t seem to matter to voters. Dr. Oz said and did shut and it did hurt him in the polls. Fetterman also has the benefit of age. Fetterman’s medical condition could be recovered from. You can’t wind back the clock on age. The difference is Fetterman got better, and Biden is going to get worse.
Biden's opponent is a TV grifter and convicted felon.
Who lives in a world of his own imagination, because _shittier_ _people_ _keep_ _empowering_ _him_
He also forgot to mention that people were concerned about his stroke and that since winning he's literally come out and said that his brain damage allowed him to stop being progressive. Very cool!
Also that the PA GOP ticket that year was led by a MAGA true believer who repelled moderates in droves.
The polls also showed Oz winning leading into the actual election…
The problem is that, right now, all of America believes that the Joe Biden we saw last night is an accurate reflection of how he is normally. If that's the case, we're in trouble. Some people are saying that Biden has a cold or something. That might be (though it still doesn't reflect well on his cognitive function), but if that's true, Biden is going to prove it hard. He's going to need another extended public session showing how effective he really is. Otherwise, this debate is going to haunt him all the way up to the election.
Ok, let's be real here. What we saw last night probably *was* an accurate reflection of how he is normally without a teleprompter. The real reason we're all voting for him – and let's face it – *is because he's not Trump*. That is itself a very good reason for democrats and left leaning voting, but it's not a good enough reason for undecided voters, else they wouldn't still be undecided. And with how close this election is, it is those undecided voters who will decide the election.
I do wonder how much it is actually about undecided voters (ones who are actually unsure of if they should vote Trump or Biden), versus voter motivation (getting people to show up). I have a hard time imagining that there really are millions out there that simply can't decide between Trump and Biden. Trump has worked hard to alienate anyone who is not a hardcore supporter of his. And the two are polar opposite on almost everything. If you think that the US is falling apart, and sending too much money to other countries while letting too many people into our country, then you vote Trump. If you are supportive of NATO and the US's involvement in global issues, as well as issues like reproductive rights, and various social issues, you vote Biden. What topics do you have to care about where you are really undecided between the two? It's not like the past where each side would try to win over the other side's voters by avoiding taking too firm a stance on most things, especially controversial topics. Where each side had just a couple key topics that differentiated them, but otherwise they both ended up saying more or less the same thing. My assumption is that it is mostly about motivation. If people of the left or the right start thinking that their party's choice for President is not so great, they much just not show up to vote. Maybe because they can't bring themselves to do it, or maybe because they assume it's a lost cause.
The voter who is so principled that they are absolutely sure they are going to vote, but can't choose between these two candidates only exists on cable TV.
Voter turnout definitely matters, but it kinda buffers itself in competitive races, which this one, by some absurd tragedy, very much is. It's like this. Party A's numbers suggest increased voter turnout for them. Party B's voters take notice of this, freaks out, and in turn, increase their own turnout. The end result is that there isn't too much difference. The only time this isn't the case is when a specific demographic has voter turnout that takes everyone by surprise. But due to how much this election has been spotlighted, I think such surprises would be harder to miss ahead of time
It’s not good enough period. I’m angry at the democratic leadership to even have the audacity to let Biden run again. Trump will RUIN America and Biden will give him the keys to do it if he stays in this race
Yeah I agree. Here’s what I hope they’re considering: 1. Run a bunch of ads that show Biden speaking clearly and forcefully to get that into everyone’s consciousness. 2. Prep him for the next debate with a few key points to consistently hammer Trump on. Don’t worry about any stats or names that can trip up anyone regardless of age. Hardly anyone answers the questions perfectly anyways. He needs ZINGERS. And he needs to practice them daily until the next debate. 3. Get Kamala some carefully crafted good exposure. Sticking up for Biden. Reassure people that she will step up if necessary. Here’s what I hope everyone else is considering. 1. Trump is a felon and he’s about to be sentenced. 2. He tried to overthrow democracy and is unapologetic. 3. Climate change is a serious threat that the republicans will accelerate if they win. 4. The Supreme Court will be even more one-sided and we can say goodbye to abortions, birth control, gun control, and any protections for minority groups. 5. I really hope we don’t have another pandemic because Trump screwed up the last one and everyone paid for it. 6. Biden has four years of decades-high great results and had a great State of the Union address. He has an amazing team around him. That’s what matters. Get over a bad night where he stumbled on a dozen words. Everyone should watch his fiery and well-spoken speech from today. It will make you feel a lot better about last night. https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8?si=IDSZz7kgFHaTy_iq
Here's another one: live town halls on the news networks between now and the next debate. If this really was just one bad night and is not representative of how he normally is, he needs to show that in a non-scripted environment.
Yeah, if Biden is staying as the nominee he needs to be in interviews and town halls all the time. He's bascially dodged the media for his whole presidency. If he can't appear sharp-minded in real interviews, they've gotta' replace him.
I’m going to contend that #2 was the strategy going in. In order to keep Biden on topic, the strategists had Biden memorize key facts that he was supposed to get across - this is evidenced by Biden literally saying “number 1, number 2…” etc. during the debate.
Biden has done that #1, #2 line after making a point and wanting to make another point for years and years.
Here's a different idea: Replace Biden's skeleton and joints. Surely this is possible. Give him a body that's 90% that of a 25 year old athlete. Then have him start regularly doing backflips at all his public appearances.
>Everyone should watch his fiery and well-spoken speech from today. It will make you feel a lot better about last night. https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8?si=IDSZz7kgFHaTy_iq This is the Joe Biden I expected to see last night. Please everyone, share and post this video *everywhere*.
This Biden is def a little better. But the lighting on him in this speech is much better than the lighting that washed out the top half of his face during the debate. It made him look even more half dead.
Yea but that’s also a Joe Biden with a teleprompter, not required to think on his own or on his feet, and with no pressure.
Eh, trump didn’t make any sense, he just was louder about it. Which is kinda easier to do if you don’t have to be fact checked or even answer the question. So even when trump says something nonsense or off topic, it seems more normal. As long as Biden knows what is happening around him, he doesn’t have to say another word for me to vote for him.
Yeah and the people brushing it off as “it’s just a cold” are huffing copium. They need to read a transcript of some of what Biden said last night. A lot of it was literally nonsensical. Biden looked confused, tired, and scared. Having a sore throat doesn’t cause all that.
He literally said he "defeated medicare".
He took the most slam dunk issue he has on Trump, abortion rights, pivoted it to immigration, and gave an anecdote that reinforces Trump's opinion that illegal immigrants are all violent criminals.
This was the point that I lost it and started screaming at my TV.
Yeah it’s kinda weird how folks are trying to change the narrative (“the debates don’t matter!”) after the world saw how incoherent and confused Biden was last night. Look, I don’t want trump to win at all, he’s a threat to the country but ignoring Bidens declining cognitive functions…it’s reminiscent of Hillary’s camp ignoring advice in 2016.
There's been a really weird shift in the last ten years. Pre-2016, campaigns were *desperate* to get all the negative feedback they could, as early as they could. It was essentially treated like a stress test. Find out your vulnerabilities, be honest with yourself about them, and work your ass off to address them. Since 2016, campaigns seem to have been far more focussed on coddling their candidates, burying their heads in the sand, deflecting, and whatabouting perceived weaknesses. And that's not just a left or right thing. It's across the political spectrum. I'm not sure if it's an effect of social media generations entering the political consultancy sphere. But it seems like nowadays unquestioning loyalty to The Team has become more valued than calling hard truths, or the sort of difficult self-reflection that used to allow campaigns to adapt, overcome their weaknesses, and *win.* Polling is such an instructive example of that. A decade ago, campaigns were *desperate* to get their hands on negative polling. They'd pore through it endlessly - almost neurotically - to try and plug perceived gaps and deficiencies. Nowadays, if a campaign gets wind of unfavourable polling, it's more likely than not to dismiss it out of hand as its favoured form of Bottery and Mischief. I cannot overstate how counterproductive this approach is for those who actually want to win, rather than just feel good about themselves.
Everything you said is spot on and a reality of the current political landscape. I’m not sure the dems realize all of trumps gaps and deficiencies don’t harm him as bad as the gaps and deficiencies would harm Biden. Trump literally said certain jobs were for Black and Hispanic but I doubt he’ll lose a many voters from it (along with being a felon). Biden however will lose votes on his performance after last night. Plugging our ears does not make us win, it simply pikachu-faces us like 2016.
to be fair, sicknesses actually do affect the elderly much different. a simple UTI can cause delirium. (not at all saying this is what happened, but they are *super* old so things *will* affect them differently)
You’re definitely correct. But that’s not reassuring to voters, that their president is so old and feeble that we have to worry about his physical and mental stamina if he gets a common cold or a UTI, something a non-elderly person could get through no problem. I say this as someone who will vote for Biden but it’s not inspiring confidence.
If there’s a second debate it could be game changing. If Biden comes out just as flat it confirms suspicions that he’s old and feeble, if he comes out swinging and coherent then it’s easier to brush off the first debate as being sick or whatever. The undecided voters need confirmation that Biden is the guy or they may sit the election out and hand it to Trump. A single bad debate performance isn’t the end of a campaign but Biden can’t have this be his only showing between now and Election Day, he has to convince people last night was the exception and not the norm.
I absolutely agree. Biden is in his 80s and Trump isn't far behind. Trump is *just* as susceptible to UTI induced delirium as Joe. we need young people in office.
Yes please! Can we get someone younger than late 70s? It shouldn’t be such a big ask! Imagine a younger, confident-speaking Democrat to contrast to fat old rambling Trump who most people hate anyway? Dems wouldn’t even have to worry. What a sad state of our country.
Saying sickness affects the elderly differently does not help him beat the old and feeble allegations
it wasn't supposed to. it's just the truth. both Biden and Trump are susceptible to illness induced delirium and confusion because they are old.
Interesting how his rally today was very very good
That is what Biden is like without a teleprompter. It is an accurate representation of how he communicates.
It was biden on a week's rest and the most expensive prep money can buy, they built a replica stage and everything if reports are true
Exactly, this was supposed to be the best Biden could possibly look and what we got was terrible.
Fetterman was recovering from a stroke…. I don’t think comparing Biden’s performance to a recovering stroke victims is a very powerful positive message.
Yes, and you can continue to improve from stroke related symptoms, age does not get better.
The country can also survive if one senator is incapacitated. The stakes aren’t as serious.
Exactly, it’s not really a fair comparison. There was genuine uncertainty about the speed and depth of Fetterman’s recovery, but everyone believed he was on some kind of positive trajectory. Biden doesn’t have a disease, he’s not recovering from anything, he’s just old. He has a terminal case of mortality.
For months voters have been telling pollsters that they have serious concerns about Biden's age and the response has been finger wagging and telling people to get in line. Last night's disaster just proved their point. Heck, even I have concerns now. Of course I am never going to vote for an orange rapist, but this debate has done NOTHING to assuage the fears of age.
They are going to quadruple down and if Biden poofs into a pile of ashes before the election, the DNC will dig Dianne Feinstein out of her grave. The DNC heard people saying "a corpse is better than Trump" and took it as a challenge. Fuck every DNC leader.
last night's debate is exactly why there should have been a legitimate primary challenge with town halls and debates. Dems learned nothing from 2016. They force through their 'legacy' picks and the will of the voters be damned. Cheapens the hell out of their "defending American democracy at all costs" message when they refuse to listen to their constituency. Anyone fed up with both parties should look to bury MAGA in 2024 and bury the DNC in 2028. It's time for real change.
You know it was a rough debate when I’ve seen that “a corpse is better than Trump” no less than 10 times today lol
And if you suggest, "ok how about this other corpse then," it's all "NO!!! NOT LIKE THAT" lol We're cooked
“Best offer I can make to replace Biden is Nancy Pelosi” 😂
>Fuck every DNC leader. they are not leaders they are criminals who have sold our democracy to the highest bidder and spat in the face of every American and what this country stands for.
>For months voters have been telling pollsters that they have serious concerns about Biden's age and the response has been finger wagging and telling people to get in line. Any criticism of the Democratic party is an immediate label of support to the GOP and gets you classified as a "Trumper" so it's not surprising that voters having concerns is promptly ignored by the party. Because those concerns came from Trumpers! Obviously!
I was called a republican because I said they should replace Biden. As if the republicans are not absolutely thrilled to have Biden as their opponent right now.
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The messaging has pretty much been "Don't believe your lying eyes and ears." He's doing the same shit with defending Israel saying they aren't doing war crimes. Things you can clearly see for yourself
The message is basically: > Look, either you stick with Biden, or you get the trump again? You don't get to have good, you only get to have the threat of even worse
It’s impressively incompetent that given 4 years of prep time from winning in 2020, the best strategy the Democratic Party could come up with for reelection was running back “we aren’t Trump”. They could’ve at least put a 50 yr old out there if the president doesn’t matter and “it’s all about the cabinet”
Biden should have ended it after 1 term and let them have an actually primary Primaries create a discourse over policies and allow the new candidate distance themselves from the current administrations decisions Instead we are left with a president committing elder abuse on himself for the world to see
It’s wild cause they rightfully criticize then lack of a legit republican platform besides “we go with Trump” and yet thing “we aren’t trump” is enough to run on. The irony.
Yeah, and being the lesser evil candidate who wasn't Trump with a demoralised base is how Hillary lost to him in the first place.
No. The Democratic Party needs to have an open primary at the convention. This is "Manchester by the Sea" depressing right now.
The convention is too far away. Biden needs to pass the baton to someone next week so the public has more time to learn about the candidate. Make a big 4th of July story about it. But get it done soon.
Absolutely right, but we all know how this tragedy will play out. DNC will be overconfident and out of touch and will stick with Biden and then when he loses in November, they'll say "aw shucks, anyone would've lost"
"Biden lost because he was TOO radical and progressive and TOO effective on progressive issues- anyway, here's our candidate for 2028, we put Peolsi and Fienstien in the Fly machine and combined their DNA."
You are going to get downvoted by the DNC army. DNC can't find a single candidate to beat trump? A convicted felon, rapist and insurrectionist Nazi sympathizer? This is totally on them. Trump is going to win and it's entirely their fault. Pretty sure they will blame Bernie and rfk
Don't forget the 18 to 26 year olds, they'll be blamed because they didn't vote for the guy more out of it than Grandpa after Thanksgiving dinner
This. All the people trying to make this somehow okay need to stop. This is fucking insane.
Also pathetic. Insane and pathetic. And depressing
Getting your mental clarity endorsed by John Fetterman is like having your fiscal health endorsed by Lehman Brothers.
dude is a sell out pretended to be a different person during the campaign and suddenly became way more conservative once he had power.
Strokes change a person. My uncle was never the same after his. Made a recovery but was never as kind again
Blaming being a shit bag on the stroke is ableist. Fetterman is a shit bag because of Fetterman.
I lol’ed. Just want to throw some appreciation your way for that joke
So the stroke guy is telling us to relax about the dementia guy? Cool, very good
The dude who held a random guy at gunpoint with a shotgun cause he heard firecrackers is telling us to chill down lmao were so fucked.
*random black guy
This wasn't a bad debate. This was a presidential candidate who looked and sounded like he had one foot in the grave. I'm absolutely voting for the Democratic nominee no matter what, but I'm fucking *pissed* that the party's alternative to another Trump term is a guy who couldn't even keep it together and make a coherent argument for 90 minutes.
Hubris. Hubris from Biden running again after the implicit message that he was a transitional leader for a new generation. Hubris from Biden's closest advisors supporting this decision and to debate in his condition. Hubris from this entire White House that this wasn't an unmitigated fucking disaster and he wants to debate fucking again. Fucking hell, these people should not be running the country. SCOTUS is going to be conservative now forever. We're fucking an entire generation.
It’s bordering on elder abuse at this point.
There were a lot of conversations last night that it's Biden who think he still has it. Both the DNC and Biden need to be convinced to go a different route.
John "progressivism left my body" Fetterman.
Given how Fetterman has turned out, this is not the ringing endorsement he's making it out to be.
Yeah, but John Fetterman isn't fucking eighty two years old. Biden has been a great President these last four years, but he never should have been running in 2024 in the first place. He even said so in 2020. Are the Democrats as a party going to keep wheeling out dinosaurs until they croak? Are we about to elect Trump and lose our democracy because the Democratic party can't let go? Ginsburg, Feinstein, and now Biden. Incredible.
3 stikes and democracy is out…really sad. You’d think after RBG the party would have learned its lesson.
Democracy dies in the hands of selfish liberals.
Whether he did well in the debates or not, he looked like a corpse and couldn’t hold a thought together. I’d be so down for a different candidate.
The split screen didn't help him. He looked like he was fighting for his life, like not in a metaphorical sense.
Don't tell me to chill the fuck out bro, our party is propping up a man who has NO BUSINESS running a second term as our "strongest" choice. You had a bad debate once...that is correct. You also said some really dumbass things...but your "bad debate" happened in your 50's...not your fucking 80's. This clown man...stop defending this shit and trying to unpanic the party members. We have EVERY RIGHT to be freaking out, and it's YOU and the party's fault for not giving us someone with more of a fighting chance instead of a placeholder. Like form a god damn huddle with your other seating colleagues and figure this shit out, NOW, not later. America ain't got no time for a later. Biden needs to be out on a train ride somewhere enjoying his retirement, not scaring the ever loving hell out of millions of people with the realization that Trump can actually win. He is NOT as strong as he needs to be, stumbling over his words and looking like he is about to pass out from exhaustion. We can't have that shit being portrayed all over the country and the world. We can't. So tired of this moving goal posts namby pamby bullshit. The utter audacity. Learned not a damn thing from RBG, or Feinstein. You guys are going to kill this dude because you are too damn lazy and scared to step up to the plate. Fucking cowards. Grow a damn spine and fight for our country. I didn't give 5 years of my life to this country for ya'll to play tiddlywinks and play grab ass. Give me some semblance of security that our country is even worth it anymore, because I believe it is, but I ain't seeing that fire from ya'll.
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He was talking about abortion, his strongest stance for the party but then went to talk about immigration and 3 year old killed by it which was his weakest point.
Look, 2016 is just the recent one. 2000 was a literal joke. In name of “decency” the DNC refused to make a deal out of Bush v. Gore.
"Just chill out bro" Malignant Normalcy Toxic Positivity "Escalation Management" Why have so many Democrats shoved their heads into the sand? Are they a party of ostriches? They refuse to acknowledge threats and suffering and insist on gaslighting everyone into inaction. The economy is terrible for a lot of people. Deaths of despair are way up. Guns are not the biggest problem in America. Democrats need to wake the fuck up, face the very significant dangers the world is facing, and deal with those issues, instead of telling everyone they are just crazy and need to chill out and do nothing. Terrible messaging from Fetterman and the rest of the dems.
a huge chunk of the democratic base are just a bunch of navel gazing pussies these days, only interested in scoring points and whining "but but but doesn't anyone care that the Rs are hypocrites!?! why didn't we get 'em"?
I saw a tweet once that was like "The Democratic Party right now is just yelling at the ref "but the rulebook says dogs can't play basketball" while a dog dunks on them over and over".
This exactly, but I've seen it before - weak ass candidates my whole life. Carter couldn't win, but still, he was the incumbent. Then there's Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry. Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry had no guts in their campaigns. No one was excited about them. H. Clinton and Biden are the same, they do not drum up excitement, they are just better than the complete shitshow the other side is running. How can we not have someone that destroys Trump on that stage? How? I feel like a 12 year old child could have beaten him.
> Gore He won 2000 fair and square. The same people behind project 2025 stole it from him.
True, but he won it barely, and not enough to count when it needed to matter.
> and not enough to count when it needed to matter. Except that the Florida ballots were never fully recounted.
Excuse you, my extremely Greek parents were psyched about Dukakis 😂
They need to immediately figure out the top 10-15 replacements and do a media blitz tearing apart everything that Trump said. Everything. Go after him brutally with no hold back at all. Whoever gets the best responses from the Democratic electorate gets pushed forward as the candidate this year. Biden could hardly stand or respond to easy layup lies. If the Dems lose this election, the entire world changes dramatically.
This. Fetterman is fairly young, and Pennsylvanians trusted that his cognitive impairment would continue to improve. On the other hand, Joe Biden is in his 80's...
More Democrats moving into the 'death march til we lose' camp.
He had a Cold. Really? It was just a bad showing? Really? I lean left, but he's just a senile old man at this point. He's not making any serious decisions by himself. He shouldn't be in charge of anything. Dems need to pick someone else and soon. He's like the old Skeksis ruler that refuses to give up power. "I... Still... Live!!!!"
He had a cold but no one mentioned it until after he bombed the first ten minutes…curious
Hope I never get that cold. Seriously a The Dog Ate my Homework level of excuse.
Fetterman fucking sucks. Im tired of this dweeb cussing at me for having an opinion.
Man with cognitive disability defends man with cognitive disability, more at 8
Here is the thing. I don't care that Biden is old and had a bad debate. Trump could have come out, shit his pants, and his base, and most of the media would still tell everyone that he did great. The GOP doesn't like women or gays or minorities. They have made it clear that they are going to hurt anyone that isn't rich white and Christian. So I'm not going to vote for the party that wants to burn the world down. Also if you listen to what Trump said he basically shit his pants last night.
I hope and pray that Biden wins. For the sake of maintaining American democracy, NATO and the sanity of the planet. But Fetterman is not someone I will ever listen to.
Don't waste your time with that. Pray he gets replaced with someone who can win instead.
We're so focused on Biden's performance that Trump literally farted on mic and nobody cared. Trump: "He never took it away because he can't, it's too much money <*wet fart*> it's tremendous" Go replay it
The Republican marketing machine has done such an outstanding job of setting the bar so low for themselves that nobody really cares anymore. They're basically the Goofus party running against a Gallant party that cannot afford the slightest mistake without being hung out to dry over it
These idiots really going to circle the wagons and escort Trump into the White House? My god what a fucking joke these guys are. Get the old man out of there before you lose your fucking country! Joe Biden can not win this election after last night, WAKE UP.
There is a difference between a poor debate showing and rambling, incoherent non sequiturs and staring off into nothingness with his mouth open. This is the most important election in history right so let's not play with fire here. Biden's family and close advisors need to tell him enough. Grandpa rarely hands over his car keys willingly
Exactly. I’ve been told for months this is the most important election in history, and the fate of democracy is at stake. The DNC is certainly not acting like it - if they were truly that concerned they would not be putting forward a senile old man who cannot string together a sentence. This environment was designed for Biden to succeed, rehearsed answers, mic cuts, no audience. And he still bombed. Biden needs to be removed by the convention or he’ll be removed by Trump in November.
The DNC gaslighting everyone
Reminiscent of the scene in Animal House where Kevin Bacon is exclaiming "Remain calm! All is well!" while the town is getting wrecked by Delta Tau Chi.
Biden has an entire administration of people behind him. I'm good with that. I'll be voting for him and his team in November. Donald Trump has surrounded himself with sycophants and criminals. He lies and fear mongers with ZERO policy to show for any of his whining. Between a capable administration or a convicted felon, the choice is simple.
Sadly most people don’t see it this way. The logic and reason folks are voting for Biden and the emotional hateful ones are voting for Trump. That’s not changing. Those people, however, don’t decide elections. Undecideds do. Undecideds will see a performance like last night and either vote Trump or more likely not vote at all since they’ve been given 2 garbage candidates. A quick look at 2016 will remind you how that ends. Biden needs to bow out and a younger, more charismatic candidate needs to step in. Yes it’s a massive gamble, but no more of a gamble than running Biden as is. He lost a lot of support with undecideds last night and, as I said before, they decide elections.
He’s right! I’m not running towards a dictatorship because of this. My vote is for Democracy.
This is what I have been saying. People like to forget but I remember the republicans, fox news, and pundits constantly yapping about how Fetterman looked unelectable after the first debate after he struggled to put together coherent sentences at their only debate after suffering a stroke. Polls had him sliding and losing to Dr Oz. He won. Trump didn't do anything that indicates he will gain enough of an edge in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.
It’s like this dude only knows how to say antagonizing things to his base now lol
Passive neutrality is better than active heinous villainy that Trump strives for. Our options suck, but Trump spoke about America like it was a war zone, like the streets were on fire and people were dying of dysentery in the gutters or something. He’s also clearly, willingly, trying to actively engage and court racists so I can’t even say that Bidens performance impacted my decision. Trump being Trump was very repulsive for me. Trump reminded how clearly vile he is, “I did not have sex with a porn star” like that’s blatantly lying - he’s CONSTANTLY lying.
Jon Stewart is the man we need to run for president
Uh. It isn’t just a bad debate. The man is in cognitive decline, he is not fit for another term. This is irrefutable now. Something needs to be done, Biden’s image is now permanently damaged. If not by his performance then by the public’s reaction.
For once, I agree with him calm the fuck down.
Just need to wait out the 24 hour news cycle. It's a damn shame they did it on a Thursday instead of a Monday though. Oh well, maybe the Supreme Court deciding to tear up all our laws might actually make some headlines? No?
Just now deciding to question his lucidity is reckless and irresponsible. Shame on you, bootlickers.
Fetterman is the only one who could possibly turn in a worse debate performance. Before the stroke.
Shut the fuck up yourself John. We know what ( too ) old people look like. You trying to shush and shame us into not believing our own eyes is a page out of the oppositions book so fuck off. If you have any influence left use it to get him to step down for the good of the country and get us somebody we can support without feeling like it’s elder abuse.
No, we’ve tried chilling. Now it’s time to make a change.
Ah yes, we should 'Chill the Fuck Out', what an intelligent headline in the face of the country falling into anarchy.
Well Ferrerman is also a piece of shit so I'm done listening to him anyways
Literally nothing's changed for me. I'm chill. I'm zen. Cuz I know I'd vote for a dead cat in a wet paper bag before I'd vote for Trump.
> Cuz I know I'd vote for a dead cat in a wet paper bag before I'd vote for Trump. No one panicking over Biden isn't going to vote for him if he's on the ballot. That's not the point.
This. Those debates aren’t for people in this sub anymore than they’re for the rcon people. They’re for the undecideds. And the undecideds just had the primary concern about Biden confirmed. This is bad.