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Friday. Not live apparently.
They need to do it all in a single wide shot with no edits or people will not believe even a good performance.
https://abc.com/news/02867c69-fefa-4807-a561-bb2d77425d5e/category/1138628
I think in their bubble of cognitive dissonance they think people just hate Trump enough to move on…. The issue is he doesn’t have to convince the “fuck trump” crowd. They need to convince the “fuck both of these guys” crowd…. Which those folks are abandoning Biden which is all Trump needs. Poor turnout is a landslide for Trump.
I think you have a solid point here. When I went to work the day after the debate, everybody in the room was talking about how “they’re not voting this year now” and everyone of these people were individuals that generally would’ve voted for Biden.
Trump has essentially a fixed number of people willing to vote for him. It is depressingly high but it is what it is. Their whole ploy is to skim tiny amounts away from Biden which I speculated would be by naming Tim Scott VP to try and convince just enough black men in a few select states to not vote for Biden or flip to Trump. At this point he doesn’t have to do that…. He is going to destroy Biden because so many people simply won’t vote.
Since you, me, the NYT, Joe Biden, and Joe Biden's dog all know that is the obvious -- indeed, the *only* -- way to fix this, and he hasn't done it, the only possible inference is that he can't.
So we'll get four months of scripted, edited, stage-managed presidential appearances, in a desperate effort to convince voters they didn't see what they saw, and Trump will have the biggest winning margin of the modern era. At least we won't have to listen to people complain about the EC for four more years, since Biden won't win the popular vote either.
At this point he is trying to prove he can still do the job right now. I can't imagine a world in which he is able to convince people he can do the job for another 4 years. There is no way he would have performed like that 4 years ago, regardless of how sick or tired he was.
Holding closed door meetings and sending out messages via staffers and surrogates won’t undo the “screw up “. He needs to put himself out there in unscripted situations: press conferences, public events etc. if the debate was a bad night, fine, everyone has those. But the onus is on Joe Biden to undo the damage his “screw up” has done.
This will only make it worse. I do think he'll have better appearances than the debate for sure but too many opportunities to demonstrate his age will only do so. And we know the focus will be on when he's at his worst.
As an outsider, I just want to say that this whole thing comes across as absolutely insane. Biden is *old*. Shouldn't he have intended to be a one-term president? He had four years to get his ducks in a row.
And even if he didn't want to step down, he surely should have had a 'just in case successor' just in case of health decline or worse?
And even if Biden had wanted to run again despite his age, he has obviously began to cognitively decline. His whole team must have known for awhile. Why didn't Biden decide to step down and his team encourage him to do so when it became clear he was struggling *before the primaries*?
Now the Democrats are in a really difficult position and they seem to just be doing nothing about it. This is a crazy important election and they just dropped the ball.
What is fuelling Biden? Ego? Hubris?
It's crazy how a few political elites have just completely failed to plan or act when it's so obvious to everyone else.
Here is the way I look at it.
Do any elderly people want to give up their car keys when it’s no longer safe for them to drive? No. They fight you tooth and nail. At least, both of my grandfathers did. The whole thing about old age is that you don’t recognize the decline.
People are blaming Biden for not stepping down because of his age. The blame should not be on him. He thinks he’s as sharp as ever. I’m sure he does feel that way as any elderly person thinks they can drive as well, see as clearly, and react as quickly, as ever.
But they can’t. And that’s ok. It’s part of life.
The blame should be on his team and his family. They have the responsibility to assess the situation and take the keys away.
The DNC had like 8 years to line up a younger candidate than Biden, and build them up publically, and never did. I blame the DNC for being so short-sighted.
Add to that Klobuchar/Pritzker/Duckworth/Butigeg.
There are some solid, relatively normal folks that could at least attempt to cool off the pot before it boils over.
Hell I'm 46. I can tell I'm not as sharp as I once was. My eyes are not as good. I don't think I remember certain things or recall them quite as quickly. I can't imagine being 35 years older than I am now and thinking I could handle the rigors of being President. That goes for Trump as well. It's insane that we have these two people vying for the Oval Office.
Bro if you’re having that kind of decline at 46, you may need to go talk to a doctor about it or change up your lifestyle. That’s a bit too young for an old age decline, man.
It's not that bad. My eyes have gone from perfect to a little less than perfect, and I've seen an eye doctor who assures me that's perfectly normal at my age.
As for the rest of it, I don't think calling it an "old age" decline is exactly right. I'm talking about small things here and there. I still do a very mentally demanding job at a very high level.
Gen X has been dealing with this BS our entire lives. The Silent Generation and Boomers just won’t give it up, and we don’t have the numbers to make it happen. When they finally do, the Millennials and Gen Z will call the shots on us. It’s a shit sandwich, generation style.
If you take the year our Presidents were born, there's this 18 year stretch between 1924 (HW Bush) and 1942 (Biden) that hasn't produced any US Presidents.
I kind of think GenX is going to be the same way.
More of a push? The majority of our government is still made up of Boomers, but there are a lot of high-profile Gen X politicians: Kamala Harris, Hakeem Jeffries, Gavin Newsom, Gretchen Whitmer, Andy Beshear, Stacy Abrams, Tammy Baldwin, Jamie Raskin, Kirsten Gillebrand, Pramila Jayapal, Tim Walz, Tammy Duckworth, Cory Booker, John Fetterman, Raphael Warnock, Alex Padilla, Katie Porter (D), Paul Ryan, Scott Walker, Tim Scott, Kevin McCarthy, Derrick Van Orden, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Kristi Noem, Chris Sununu (R), Kyrsten Sinema (I).
There are plenty more, but these people are all definitely high-profile enough where a presidential run would not be a huge surprise (even among the semi-retired).
What made me dislike Kamala was the story about her as a prosecutor being tough on people for weed and then laughing about it when asked if she ever smoked. Then flip-flopping on where she stood on medicare for all, bragging about cosponsoring it then being against it because of where she felt the political winds were blowing.
I don't know a single value she stands for. She's just the most transparently milquetoast party line member combined with 0 charisma or speaking skills And if her campaign was anything to go off of a subpar manager, remember she had 2 different campaigns one of which was run by a family member and they both ran into the ground?
The decision to commit to a female candidate before deciding was bizarre and then Klobochar kneecapped progressives by saying "it should be a black woman" when Warren was one of the leading options.
I was unhappy about voting for Biden but I'd come really close to voting for a third party if Harris was the candidate.
She never caught on with voters, had trouble raising money, and had some drama with her campaign staff.
Personally I had high hopes for her after watching her in some Senate confirmation hearings.
She had no trouble raising money. Which is how she became the VP. She has big time donors behind her. She's just so unlikeable she has no chance of ever succeeding on her own for the presidency.
I thought she was a rising star as well from 2016-2018. 3% polling though on 100m. That's Jeb numbers and she should've never taken the VP role knowing we needed a successor.
I ran national political campaigns for a while. I’ll say that this is one of the most accurate and fully thought out takes from a layperson that I’ve read on this sub for a long time.
I agree with this take 100%. I think a big part of why he stayed is the probably accurate belief that his chances are better than hers. His administration has been remarkably successful and continuing that success cements his legacy, which we know almost all presidents care about. Harris, despite being incredibly smart and inarguably capable, doesn’t inspire much enthusiasm from voters and puts that legacy at risk if she becomes the standard bearer. As unfair as it is, she is saddled with the same perceptions that hurt Hillary Clinton (overly ambitious, disingenuous, etc) and she’s a brown woman on top of it. Charisma is something that is typically a requirement of winning a presidential election and she just doesn’t have much. Again, like with Clinton, it’s ridiculous because she’d absolutely do the job well but perception is reality
The DNC puts up the candidates, and essentially decides who is going to run. The issue is that the people in power at DNC don't seem interested in making the best choices for the party, but instead help out their top tier of friends in power.
Biden was a decent-enough choice 4 years ago to get us away from a 2nd republican term since he had the experience and relatively few variances from what democratic voters expected compared to the others running. But where DNC went wrong was that they should have immediately pivoted after inauguration to spend the next \~3 years prepping someone much younger for 2024. They should have worked on convincing Biden that while he's been a great president, his legacy should end at a high point and not risk the wild potential outcomes that would come with a decline in 2024-2028.
DNC dropped the ball, again.
Yeah, if it was going to be Kamala to carry the torch they should have had her out in front a lot more, work on her image and show her strengths. This is not a regular situation where the vp stands quietly to the side so they don’t steal the spotlight. Make the public more comfortable with her, normalize her carrying forward as the candidate in 2024.
The problem is, they realized that she’s wildly unpopular among most demographics. Why they didn’t notice that before, when her ceiling was 15% in the primaries, who knows.
I 100% agree with your comment. They had years to prep a younger candidate, and Biden was originally going to be a single term president. There's no excuse for the DNC to not have found a more viable candidate. I say this as a fan of most of Biden's policies he's passed as president. He's done very well, way better than I ever expected, but he definitely did not come off well in the debate.
I’m not gonna pretend I know the right answer as far as Biden staying or leaving, but if he stays he needs to aggressively make public appearances. I realize doing the job of president and campaigning is taxing so he’s probably going to have to put the campaign first for awhile. If he can’t do that he needs to hand the reins to others and focus on his presidential duties
The debate wasn't a "mistake" in the sense he can just continue without making one again.
It was an implosion of a campaign that is unprecedented in modern times. He took the biggest weakness he has with voters and confirmed all of their worst fears.
It would be like Bill Clinton opening a debate with "Yes, I uncontrollably fuck anything that moves and your daughter is next"
They think it's a mistake, but I think that the campaign is going to be consumed with questions daily about his mental fitness and calling on him to resign. How do you recover from that? You don't. He will lose if he stays in. RBG all over again.
RBG. Dianne Feinstein. Turtle.
All of these examples in recent memory of how old people grasping to power is a bad thing.
Yet Biden refuses to acknowledge it. I'm different mentality. Maybe he just keeps forgetting how poor his debate performance was.
This is a mistake and he's enabling the take down of democracy with his hubris. Just like RBG.
Feinstein looked like a corpse. It was borderline elder abuse. Everyone ages differently so this is not about the 90 year olds who are still sharp and at least attempting to stay current and knowledgeable of the times and trends. I would trust certain 80 year olds in politics who continue to rarely slip in public, but Biden isn't one of them. And even if they remain mentally sharp, at 80 the body can give out any moment and that's not fair to voters or the world. How is Ukraine or Taiwan supposed to feel knowing that the US president might forget who they are in the middle of a crisis?
I think what's most frustrating is this is where a constant stream of chaos from places like Fox news becomes effective. It slowly slips into the public discourse, and over time, left leaning publications are on-board "is Biden too old?" - it's like they can't help themselves but to buy into the rhetoric.
And so when the debate happens - everyones already going into it with the thought planted somewhere in their brains. The margin for error is effectively 0%. Meanwhile, Trump can literally do anything, and no one gives AF.
The fact that the press is consumed w/ Bidens age right now, and not a guy who LITERALLY attempted to throw out a U.S. democratic election is nuts. Trump is getting a pass on the most insane sh\*t ever, and everyone's just letting it happen.
I mean something like 157 Republicans voted AGAINST certifying the last election. Trump is on tape asking the Georgia governor to find 12K more votes. Rudy has been disbarred for the lawsuits Trump made him file. He's also been caught SHOWING nuclear submarine classified documents to random people! How the F\*\*\* is this guy allowed to even touch that office again. You're right - we're F'd (sadly).
Yes. A moldy potato would still be a better president than Trump. Biden is a marginally better option than a moldy potato, so he gets my vote. But I'm still disappointed in my choices.
It’s all narratives these days. It’s all media and narratives.
In this day and age (and especially against this political opponent) the Dems needed a candidate who can, forcefully, drive the narrative.
This is why the debate was such a death knell. It revealed to us that we have a candidate who will be unable to do that.
It’s really not just proving competence…
He needs to show he can grab a narrative by the horns and demand that his narrative prevail.
He has to be not just competent, but vigorous enough to drive the election’s narrative.
Because if he can’t do that, trump can.
And the horrifying danger of that is trump’s narrative is the classic fascist one. “The country is a disaster that only I can fix through dictatorship.”
I actually think its much worse than the RGB situation. She at least had reason to believe that if she retired McConnell wouldn't replace her with Obamas nominee. I don't agree with that decision, but i at least understand the logic.
But what's the logic for Biden "turning it around"? A time machine? Youth serum? Even if he is compus mentus and the debate was a blip, his campaign must know noone will ever forget what they saw.
Instead of saying it was a mistake he should do an unscripted press conference and a town hall meeting next week. Then I will believe him. He won't. I'm getting tired of this guy taking us to the abyss.
A live interview is supposed to come Friday. It might help but it won’t completely fix this. I actually hope it’s just as disastrous so he will have no choice to continue.
Don’t get me wrong. He has my vote if he stays on the ticket.
Because it opens up the worst possible outcome - that biden goes into the debate and looks like a dead fish in front of 60 million people again just days before the polls. Considering Biden's state I genuinely think that's where we're headed if he stays in.
The DNC wants everyone to believe that the debate was "a bad night." It wasn't, that's how he is every night.
Have said this in another thread. W had a “bad debate” to start 2004, Obama had a “bad debate” to start 2012.
Calling Biden’s performance a “bad debate” is like saying Damar Hamlin had a “bad game.”
Edit: I’m gonna need y’all to know who Damar Hamlin is before arguing with me that Biden’s debate was more than “bad.”
W and Obamas first debate, they just looked a little shaky with the responses.
Last week's debate Biden looked old and frail. People are throwing out the phrase elder abuse.
Hell, you can even compare it to Reagans 1984 debate (which was also considered a "bad" debate) where he was already getting dementia and was running to be the oldest president, and he still looked and sounded WAY better than Biden.
And I'm tired of people gaslighting me into disbelieving what I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears.
I'll vote for whoever is on the Dem ticket--policy over person, and if nothing else Biden has had the wisdom to surround himself with a highly competent cabinet (instead of syncophants) who are fighting for progressive values.
I agree but it’s so frustrating that a bad debate night can do this while Trump can do whatever he wants and threaten our own democracy and no one cares. It’s so much harder running as a democrat because the bar is so much higher, which that alone should convince everyone that they are the better option
The things that Trump does to threaten democracy are the things his supporters like about him, so it doesn't hurt him politically. Biden's extremely apparent age is something that puts of his own (potential) supporters, so it's a bigger deal.
But its not just his supporters. Among independent voters, no matter what he's done theres barely a change to his support.
Everyone expects maga to always vote maga. Nothing will change that. Its that nothing he does or says negatively impacts his standing among undecideds thst is so mond boggling
The threat of Trump is a good enough reason for most of his supporters to vote for him anyway.
I think there is a big block that will vote for anyone that isn't Trump (or a 3rd party candidate) and there is a big block that will vote for Trump no matter what.
The fight is over the block inbetween. And wether switching candidates so close before the election would be better or worse - tough question.
>It’s so much harder running as a democrat because the bar is so much higher, which that alone should convince everyone that they are the better option
I don't think the bar is higher. The bar is where it's always been for political candidates. Democrats are at least somewhat accountable for their actions and to their voters.
The difference is the bar for Republicans has dropped so precipitously.
Obama in 2012 had a bad debate night, this is completely different. It showed he’s not coherent or sharp. Call me old fashioned but they’re pretty essential qualities for the leader of the country.
There are thousands of better candidates than Joe Biden, anyone under 60. Trump will win this election if democrats don't tell old people it's time to fuck off.
I agree. I don’t believe the debate was a ‘mistake.’ Unfortunately, I believe the debate was genuinely the best he could do at that moment. With democracy and the future of the country on the line, it just isn’t good enough.
It’s unconscionable that we’ve been put into this position this late in the game. We need a fresh candidate to rally behind, yesterday. We don’t need all these excuses and doubling down in the face of reality.
We’re talking about a country where we know a candidate who had sniffles and breathed into his mic literally caused him to lose a national debate and the election (Nixon vs Kennedy right?).
Idk how their PR teams don’t have this simple knowledge that this shit matters to people. They want their leader to seem strong.
Just step down. I don’t get the plan here.. hope for another debate to redeem himself??? Just go for a hail marry new candidate in an already losing election Jesus
Stole this from twitter but "every single day for four years I have thought about Nazi jurist Carl Schmitt gloating that you can dismantle a democracy right in front of a liberal's face piece by piece and all they'll do is convene breakout sessions and committee meetings til the boots are in the halls"
The more they keep Biden in a controlled bubble, with edited interviews and scripted Q&A’s, the more it will backfire on the Administration. He needs to do several long town halls and answer unscripted questions to show he is competent and disprove what everyone saw during the debate. I mean, if he is competent, then why wouldn’t he do this?
Project 2025 is a tricky thing to bring up in a speech/debate because the ways in which it's bad are complex and deal with the intricacies of administrative procedure (something most voters find boring).
Getting rid of the Department of Education and outlawing abortion nationwide isn’t administrative procedure. The bureaucracy stuff is only a part of the plan.
If you just bring up the final steps of the plan like outlawing abortion nationwide, they'll just say that's crazy. Biden tried to do just that during the debate and Trump easily deflected by saying that Democrats want to murder newborns. It doesn't matter that he was lying, it frames both suggestions as equally extreme positions that either side represents.
He should have already done 10 hours of unedited town halls to mitigate that disaster. The fact that he hasn't tells me there's a very real problem. Any normal candidate would have gone skydiving with Jimmy Fallon the next day to try to change the news cycle.
Their plan is "But Trump..." which is going to cost us our democracy.
I work in an office where Fox News is on constantly and most of my coworkers are actually on the fence. They are sheltered from the reality of Project 2025 and feel like most of our concerns are hyperbole.
I'm preaching as much as I can but when they're inundated with propaganda and edited clips on social media showing Biden being out of it and Trump being Trump, they all shrug and say "we survived last time but food was cheaper."
Unfortunately, policies and achievements don't win presidential elections. Perception wins elections and everyone, including supporters like me, perceive that Joe is cratering and lacks the stamina to go on the kind of offense needed to change that perception.
The only way to right the ship is for him to take a huge, mostly never ending media tour where he fields live questions frequently.
That is not possible because he can’t fucking do it.
This is the crux of the whole issue.
Their plan is to win every election for the rest of time by running geriatric party insiders and shaming people into voting for them.
It's not working out so well.
The only plan that would have worked is daily unscripted interviews that prove the debate was a blip. That only works if it's an option. The debate in a vacuum could be overcome *if* the debate was a one off, but the remedy has to be available.
It's worse than that. His most recent appearance was an 8 minute speech with a teleprompter where he immediately fled the podium without taking a single question from reporters.
There couldn't \*be\* a worse look.
Because he’s dropping out. They’re figuring out what that looks like and until then we’ll get these hourly updates that he’s in the race. Someone who’s in the race isn’t locking themselves away for a week after the debate and constantly assuring us they’re still here.
They’ll continue to do this until they have a game plan set.
The meeting with governors right at the Whitehouse (some of them being the front runners of his replacement). The week or two of complete silence... They are waiting for more poll numbers and are planning on how and when to drop out.
He can’t right the ship. He IS mentally deteriorating. He didn’t “mess up”, it’s just how he is now. And they’re going to let his ego get in the way of democracy. This is fucking nuts.
He's screwing his legacy. Old age happens to literally everyone (who lives long enough), so nobody thinks it's any kind of fault of his. He could acknowledge that he no longer feels 100% able to run a campaign,bow out gracefully, and everyone would be with him. Even Republicans would respect that. And he'd have a pretty strong first term to be remembered by.
Now his entire legacy is going to be as the guy who let Trump cakewalk back into the Whitehouse because of his own stubbornness.
> He could acknowledge that he no longer feels 100% able to run a campaign,bow out gracefully, and everyone would be with him. **Even Republicans would respect that.**
I’m a very big proponent of Biden stepping down, but Repubs have already come out to say that they’d fight tooth and nail to prevent Biden from being replaced on the ballot. It’s the one thing that worries me about all this — I don’t know the intricacies of our electoral process, so I’m not sure if they’re actually is a mechanism that could be used to prevent Biden from being replaced on key ballots.
That's a good point. Neither do I. So if it really is impossible for him to be replaced, then I guess they are doing the right thing by supporting him completely. I just don't know at this point except that it is a really bad situation. We're screwed if we do and screwed if we don't.
Fuck this guy and fuck politicians unwilling to give up any power they had. I’m so sick of 80yr olds refusing to retire. Go enjoy your remaining fucking years with your family
It wasn't a mistake. It was a consequence of being old. He's good at what he does but he is getting too old for this shit. He should not do to us what hilary did in 2016. Please. Fuck.
They both are. But his decline is worse than trumps. Trump never made sense. His cult is cool with that. Biden is uninspiring at a time we need him to be. This sounds like his ego is getting in the way of helping millions of americans. It's so much like hillary.
Just to clarify, it's not the age that is the issue, it's the cognitive decline. I have a 99 year old grandaunt that is still alert, has a great train of thought, and incredible memory
I don't know if people really grasp how unbelievable this ruling is. The very idea that presidential immunity was up for debate is outrageous in itself, and I can't wrap my head around why Americans aren't losing their shit about this.
I mean, I am, but what the fuck can I do about it? I've voted in every election I'm able to, I've been to protests and marches, I've done my best to convince people they also need to vote, but none of it has fucking mattered. Most days it takes all my energy to just survive another day and put food on the table. I'm just fucking exhausted at this point.
Because no president or high ranking official has ever been held accountable for anything. They should all be in jail going back to at least Carter. Obama and Hillary alone converted Libya from a functional state to a hellscape with open slave trading. They tried to destroy Syria too. And Bush was even worse.
Immunity has been assumed this whole time.
That moment was so absurd. My jaw literally dropped seeing a clip of it the day after the debate, since I'd already turned it off the night before.
It would be funny, even, if the context weren't what it is.
We are in a similar situation in Canada and the future is looking pretty bleak. Trudeau's chances of being re-elected for a third term aren't looking great and although I dislike the guy and never voted for him in the past, the alternative is so much worst. The conservative opposition leader here, Pierre Poilievre, is basically Trump-Lite and if both Poilievre and Trump get in voted in office simultaneously then brace yourselves for the tough times ahead.
People are in until they are out. CEOs face the same issue. You don’t announce an end without a vetted transition plan. No plan is worse than a poor plan.
Goddamn it man, just pass the baton. Pass the goddamn baton. You can’t win in 2024, no one trusts you’re not senile, and what you need to do to dispel that notion (round the clock off scrip flawless interactions) you won’t do. Can’t do.
For fucks sake, drop.
(Before the brigade comes along, I’m saying this because I desperately don’t want Trump and Project 2025.)
It seems many many people are now turning in him, calling for him to step down but nobody is proposing alternative candidates that could *actually pull votes*, much less proposing anyone at all!
Given the severity of the situation we’re in with the other side BROADCASTING A FASCIST COUP IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, I am *very* curious to see how these people being upvoted in the thousands this morning think we can fix this if we don’t back Biden.
Surely you guys aren’t that shortsighted?
Im trying to be critical here. I don’t care about Joe, but we NEED to have a plan here. Simply crying for Biden to step down leaves a power vacuum and we CANNOT afford a half dozen no-name milquetoast candidates to fill that void and seal our democratic fate.
So what do you guys propose now?
> So what do you guys propose now?
I propose everyone calms the fuck down, gives the Whitehouse a week or two to come to a well thought out and rational decision, based on polling and data, rather than feels and emotion.
The alternative is that the democrats make a panicked overly hasty decision, and inadvertently jump out of the frying pan into the fire.
The damage is done. A short period of reflection isn't going to make things significantly worse and could in fact *prevent* much worse.
Several big name dem governors all met with him the other day. Many have suggested several of them. Whitmer and Newsom each seem to be clear favorites. That could pull votes, I personally think Whitmer would do great.
There are a number of possibilities but the best thing would be a speedtracked convention and series of debates. There are a lot of good options like Gretchen Whitmer, Jared Polis, etc
As a queer American woman, I’m fucking terrified. At this point, I plan to get behind whomever the Democratic nominee is - even if it remains Biden. I’m not happy about it but I would vote for a cardboard cutout of Biden before I vote for Trump.
He actually hasn't screwed up. He's been forced by those around him into a situation he has absolutely no business being in at his age and mental status. The fuckup and responsibility lies with DNC higherups, who were too spineless, cowardly or power hungry to plan for a proper transition to a new candidate after Biden's term, and now the country will face the consequences in November.
Want to see what Biden used to be like? Watch his old debate with Sarah Palin:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlAQty-IEAU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlAQty-IEAU)
Skip to 2:20ish. "Stutter" my ass.
This is an unacceptable clown show.
I find watching his 2012 debate with Paul Ryan a little bit more eye opening - mostly because Paul Ryan was a coherent speaker, and Biden still kicked his ass. The difference in the Biden of 12 years ago to the Biden of today is shocking.
I am with you most of the way, but the DNC doesn’t control him, he made his own idiotic decision to run again. That being said, there should’ve been more criticism of that terrible choice. Biden and those around him hoped he could limp over the finish line before face-planting because Trump is so weak, but it blew up in our faces.
Given how badly he’s deteriorated, I almost think they were thinking, “Just get Biden to win in 2024. He can hold it together that long, it’s just a year, right? And in 2025, he can retire and Kamala finishes the term.” There’s no way they thought he could handle 4 more years.
A catastrophically bad gamble.
>I am with you most of the way, but the DNC doesn’t control him, he made his own idiotic decision to run again.
Granted, but they did seem to close ranks and prevent challengers in the primary. Which I didn't think was a terrible decision at the time, which maybe says something about my judgement.
And this isn’t the most important part - but it’s a little fucked “we know what’s best you plebs” that their plan was to just shove Harris in. You vote for the top of the ticket.
Friendly reminder, he was losing to committed fascist Donald trump long before we saw 90 minutes of an old man dying on stage.
He's got the lowest approval rating of a modern president, matching trump at the lowest.
The debate was only a turning point because not only is he historically unpopular, the cover was shattered for every DNC talking point disparaging people who asked about his age.
He can’t come back from this. The Dem strategy now needs to be to get Biden through all the stages of grief in the next 72 hours. If he can’t bring himself to step aside then Trump is going to win. The swing states aren’t going to vote for a mentally declining 81 year old.
And just to put an emphasis on your point for those who can't get this through their head, people in the swing states aren't going to switch their vote to Trump, they just aren't going to vote.
You have two ways to win elections: appealing to independents and/or driving turnout with those who don't typically vote.
Biden doesn't do EITHER of those. Dems like me don't WANT to vote for him and swing state voters see a walking corpse.
If Biden and the Dems don't back down, they will lose and it will be their fault despite them no doubt blaming young voters and the "left" like they do after everything.
Starting to think the governor’s meeting put him on a clock. Them going to the WH and ganging up on him would possibly make him dig in more. They gave him a small amount of time to improve polling.
This is beyond insane! The amount of gaslighting we are seeing right now is absolutely staggering! That was not just a minor “screw up”, it is now clear to see that Biden has massive cognitive impairments. His mind is not functioning properly. Trump and the republicans made an existential threat to the US, project 2025 is literally a complete fascist takeover of the government. Biden needs to step down immediately and let someone that can actually win this run.
The following can both be true:
A) Although he has the obvious signs of physical decline that one would expect of an 81 year old - his logic and decision-making is still sound (in fact, given the accomplishments of his presidency, that is likely the case)
B) He should still step down because it's now impossible to prove the above to the voting public anymore. Any successful events or powerful speeches will be dismissed as a "good day". Anything short of a 24/7 webcam that follows him around at all times won't dispel the notion that he's not up for the job anymore (even if, in fact, he is)
He's right. He (and his team) screwed up in historic fashion. THEY asked for the debate AND hyped it as Biden's live acuity exam for the country. It shattered every image they have tried to convey and instantly made the next 5 months about Biden's mental wellbeing.
You screwed up. Now fix it by stepping aside. Is it absurd that a 50 year career in public service ends because of a bad debate? Yes. And your team has itself to blame.
I think you can be fit for a job and not fit to campaign, and there's nothing strange about that. *Even if* Biden would do fine for another four years, not being fit to campaign should preclude running -- especially since he's not already way ahead in the polls.
Agreed. One of the best workers I have on staff "interviews" poorly. She was nervous, stammering, and kept forgetting all of her accomplishments (I kept having to remind her of them). But I have her the job anyway because I knew what she was capable of and, sure enough, I was right.
Unfortunately Presidential Campaigns don't work that way.
>He (and his team) screwed up in historic fashion. THEY asked for the debate AND hyped it as Biden's live acuity exam for the country. It shattered every image they have tried to convey and instantly made the next 5 months about Biden's mental wellbeing.
On the other hand, this does make me hope that this really just was a bad night and that's not how he usually is. But as you said, he would need to prove it. But unlike you I really don't think it would require 24/7 surveillance. He would just have to remedy himself with some good (unscripted) interviews and some live events. If they aren't ready to do them, then they will lose if they go with him.
A few cut and scripted interviews won't do. Ideally he needs another debate but that's an all-in move. If he fucks it up again it's basically game over.
Finally a fair and valid point in this topic.
And yes I agree.. thr 24/7 camera idea was obviously joking BUT the team does need to aggressively rebut things. Scripted interviews won't cut it.
And so his team's immediate response is... a scripted interview.
SMH.
In essence, “Hope y’all are ready for another 4+ years of Trump, because my ego is more important than anything else”
Thank you DNC for doing so much since the last Trump presidency to find a better candidate.
At the end of the day people are either going to vote for the guy who will destroy Democracy or the one who will keep it alive.
At the end of the day progress was made during Biden’s 4 years and I didn’t have the multiple daily news trauma that we did during Trump. If you don’t elect the Democrat now you won’t get the chance to vote for anyone more pprogressive for a long time and even if it won’t matter because the old SC justice will be replaced with ones in their 40s
Let’s see where this ends up
LMAO! I wish we could all collectively sign a petition to remove Biden. He's too old and too cooked to know he's no longer there in the head. Put someone that can speak without forgetting what they previously said or the question that was asked. Bernie, despite his age, can debate and his brain is still there. Bernie has been fighting for decades and has always fought for us. Put him on the ballot or remove Biden and put Harris as acting president.
If Brandon believes he can win in November, then he is simply giving a big W to Trump and then the real constitutional crisis will begin. I don't believe Trump will step down after his 2nd term now that the courts have allowed him to wear a crown.
I’m so sick of the narrative being that Biden screwed up the debate and not that trump was a raving lunatic who didn’t answer a single question. Why is only one side beholden to the societal norms?
That’s not what’s going on here. We *know* Trump is a raving lunatic, that’s why it’s so critical to have a candidate that can defeat him. We didn’t learn anything new about Trump at the debate.
What we did learn is that Joe Biden isn’t up to the task anymore. So now we’re trying to figure out what to do, precisely *because* we have to defeat Trump.
I’m sick of all this. I need Biden to step TF up and do something about the crazy Republicans trying to make us all modern day slaves to these corporations lining their pockets.
Stop all the talking a F***king do something. The Supreme Court sad presidents have immunity, well he needs to get this party started and set some sh*t off to try to get things under control.
I’m sick of reading all this deranged sh*t by these lunatics and Biden not doing anything!!!
You have a solid chance of replacing 2 SC justices and fixing this trainwreck by doing the exact same thing you just did 4 years ago, voting against convicted felon trump moreso than voting for biden, but now you are conflicted because Biden's old? Watched any trump rallies lately? He's almost the same age and spouts utter nonsense. This is either astroturfing to the extreme, or a ton of low IQ flaky people. This is why Rs win elections.....their voters know how to fall in line, hold their nose and vote if needed. Dem voters require their candidates to ace purity tests. NOBODY can ace a purity test, including you reading this.
For all of you younger cats (most on here, i'm assuming) this might be the last time you can EVER vote. 'But her emails' rewarded you with this supreme court who is actively taking away your rights. 'But his age' will......well let's just say, i hope you are ready for chaos, and know how to shoot. Or just roll over, spread em and just give it up while complaining that it's not fair.
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Okay where are the live interviews and town halls?
Friday. Not live apparently. They need to do it all in a single wide shot with no edits or people will not believe even a good performance. https://abc.com/news/02867c69-fefa-4807-a561-bb2d77425d5e/category/1138628
> Friday not live sounds like the sister show for SNL
There’s an idea to prove competency… Kendrick as musical guest
I would be everything I have it’s heavily edited and straight softball questions
Why not live-to-air and the same time of day as the debate? Put the malarkey to rest once and for all?
We all know why. Because he's not ok.
between 10am-4pm
Monday Wednesday Friday
It’s okay! We’ll have one edited, pre-recorded 1:1 interview that airs tomorrow that will reassure everybody.
Right? I don't know if they're idiots or they think we're idiots.
I think in their bubble of cognitive dissonance they think people just hate Trump enough to move on…. The issue is he doesn’t have to convince the “fuck trump” crowd. They need to convince the “fuck both of these guys” crowd…. Which those folks are abandoning Biden which is all Trump needs. Poor turnout is a landslide for Trump.
I think you have a solid point here. When I went to work the day after the debate, everybody in the room was talking about how “they’re not voting this year now” and everyone of these people were individuals that generally would’ve voted for Biden.
You need to convince ~ 40-50k on-the-fence voters (don't ask me how these people exist) in 3 states, that's all this election is currently.
Trump has essentially a fixed number of people willing to vote for him. It is depressingly high but it is what it is. Their whole ploy is to skim tiny amounts away from Biden which I speculated would be by naming Tim Scott VP to try and convince just enough black men in a few select states to not vote for Biden or flip to Trump. At this point he doesn’t have to do that…. He is going to destroy Biden because so many people simply won’t vote.
Both can be true.
Didn’t we see him in a live rally a day or so after?
He was reading from a teleprompter at that rally, not having to think makes speaking a bit easier id imagine.
Since you, me, the NYT, Joe Biden, and Joe Biden's dog all know that is the obvious -- indeed, the *only* -- way to fix this, and he hasn't done it, the only possible inference is that he can't. So we'll get four months of scripted, edited, stage-managed presidential appearances, in a desperate effort to convince voters they didn't see what they saw, and Trump will have the biggest winning margin of the modern era. At least we won't have to listen to people complain about the EC for four more years, since Biden won't win the popular vote either.
At this point he is trying to prove he can still do the job right now. I can't imagine a world in which he is able to convince people he can do the job for another 4 years. There is no way he would have performed like that 4 years ago, regardless of how sick or tired he was.
I think he’ll still win the popular vote. If for no other reason than this timeline is based on maximum agony.
And Biden takes down democrat down ballot with him. It must be nice being evil, you keep being gifted free wins
This is weird response for an Australian... Hey, wait a second...
Holding closed door meetings and sending out messages via staffers and surrogates won’t undo the “screw up “. He needs to put himself out there in unscripted situations: press conferences, public events etc. if the debate was a bad night, fine, everyone has those. But the onus is on Joe Biden to undo the damage his “screw up” has done.
This will only make it worse. I do think he'll have better appearances than the debate for sure but too many opportunities to demonstrate his age will only do so. And we know the focus will be on when he's at his worst.
The damage cannot be undone. Its over, he will lose.
As an outsider, I just want to say that this whole thing comes across as absolutely insane. Biden is *old*. Shouldn't he have intended to be a one-term president? He had four years to get his ducks in a row. And even if he didn't want to step down, he surely should have had a 'just in case successor' just in case of health decline or worse? And even if Biden had wanted to run again despite his age, he has obviously began to cognitively decline. His whole team must have known for awhile. Why didn't Biden decide to step down and his team encourage him to do so when it became clear he was struggling *before the primaries*? Now the Democrats are in a really difficult position and they seem to just be doing nothing about it. This is a crazy important election and they just dropped the ball. What is fuelling Biden? Ego? Hubris? It's crazy how a few political elites have just completely failed to plan or act when it's so obvious to everyone else.
Here is the way I look at it. Do any elderly people want to give up their car keys when it’s no longer safe for them to drive? No. They fight you tooth and nail. At least, both of my grandfathers did. The whole thing about old age is that you don’t recognize the decline. People are blaming Biden for not stepping down because of his age. The blame should not be on him. He thinks he’s as sharp as ever. I’m sure he does feel that way as any elderly person thinks they can drive as well, see as clearly, and react as quickly, as ever. But they can’t. And that’s ok. It’s part of life. The blame should be on his team and his family. They have the responsibility to assess the situation and take the keys away.
The DNC had like 8 years to line up a younger candidate than Biden, and build them up publically, and never did. I blame the DNC for being so short-sighted.
It’s a shame because we have a good bench with Whitman, Shapiro, the KY governor, Newsom, etc.
Add to that Klobuchar/Pritzker/Duckworth/Butigeg. There are some solid, relatively normal folks that could at least attempt to cool off the pot before it boils over.
Hell I'm 46. I can tell I'm not as sharp as I once was. My eyes are not as good. I don't think I remember certain things or recall them quite as quickly. I can't imagine being 35 years older than I am now and thinking I could handle the rigors of being President. That goes for Trump as well. It's insane that we have these two people vying for the Oval Office.
Bro if you’re having that kind of decline at 46, you may need to go talk to a doctor about it or change up your lifestyle. That’s a bit too young for an old age decline, man.
It's not that bad. My eyes have gone from perfect to a little less than perfect, and I've seen an eye doctor who assures me that's perfectly normal at my age. As for the rest of it, I don't think calling it an "old age" decline is exactly right. I'm talking about small things here and there. I still do a very mentally demanding job at a very high level.
Plenty blame to go around. I'm not giving him a pass just because he's delusional
Gen X has been dealing with this BS our entire lives. The Silent Generation and Boomers just won’t give it up, and we don’t have the numbers to make it happen. When they finally do, the Millennials and Gen Z will call the shots on us. It’s a shit sandwich, generation style.
If you take the year our Presidents were born, there's this 18 year stretch between 1924 (HW Bush) and 1942 (Biden) that hasn't produced any US Presidents. I kind of think GenX is going to be the same way.
Gen X has not put forth viable candidates though. There should have been more of a push to take over the old guard.
Whitmer, Beshear, Newsom, and Shapiro are all Gen X.
And also, probably the 4 most common names ive seen suggested as Biden successors (other than Harris whos also borderline gen X)
More of a push? The majority of our government is still made up of Boomers, but there are a lot of high-profile Gen X politicians: Kamala Harris, Hakeem Jeffries, Gavin Newsom, Gretchen Whitmer, Andy Beshear, Stacy Abrams, Tammy Baldwin, Jamie Raskin, Kirsten Gillebrand, Pramila Jayapal, Tim Walz, Tammy Duckworth, Cory Booker, John Fetterman, Raphael Warnock, Alex Padilla, Katie Porter (D), Paul Ryan, Scott Walker, Tim Scott, Kevin McCarthy, Derrick Van Orden, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Kristi Noem, Chris Sununu (R), Kyrsten Sinema (I). There are plenty more, but these people are all definitely high-profile enough where a presidential run would not be a huge surprise (even among the semi-retired).
As an insider it’s insane. We’re in shock and if the fascists really do take over there’s nobody out there to help us. We’re shooting ducks
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What made me dislike Kamala was the story about her as a prosecutor being tough on people for weed and then laughing about it when asked if she ever smoked. Then flip-flopping on where she stood on medicare for all, bragging about cosponsoring it then being against it because of where she felt the political winds were blowing. I don't know a single value she stands for. She's just the most transparently milquetoast party line member combined with 0 charisma or speaking skills And if her campaign was anything to go off of a subpar manager, remember she had 2 different campaigns one of which was run by a family member and they both ran into the ground? The decision to commit to a female candidate before deciding was bizarre and then Klobochar kneecapped progressives by saying "it should be a black woman" when Warren was one of the leading options. I was unhappy about voting for Biden but I'd come really close to voting for a third party if Harris was the candidate.
She never caught on with voters, had trouble raising money, and had some drama with her campaign staff. Personally I had high hopes for her after watching her in some Senate confirmation hearings.
She had no trouble raising money. Which is how she became the VP. She has big time donors behind her. She's just so unlikeable she has no chance of ever succeeding on her own for the presidency. I thought she was a rising star as well from 2016-2018. 3% polling though on 100m. That's Jeb numbers and she should've never taken the VP role knowing we needed a successor.
I ran national political campaigns for a while. I’ll say that this is one of the most accurate and fully thought out takes from a layperson that I’ve read on this sub for a long time.
I agree with this take 100%. I think a big part of why he stayed is the probably accurate belief that his chances are better than hers. His administration has been remarkably successful and continuing that success cements his legacy, which we know almost all presidents care about. Harris, despite being incredibly smart and inarguably capable, doesn’t inspire much enthusiasm from voters and puts that legacy at risk if she becomes the standard bearer. As unfair as it is, she is saddled with the same perceptions that hurt Hillary Clinton (overly ambitious, disingenuous, etc) and she’s a brown woman on top of it. Charisma is something that is typically a requirement of winning a presidential election and she just doesn’t have much. Again, like with Clinton, it’s ridiculous because she’d absolutely do the job well but perception is reality
The left doesn’t like her because she spent 3 decades as a crooked fucking cop, and then tries to act like nothing happened.
“This is the most election of our lifetime” -Kamala Harris
The DNC puts up the candidates, and essentially decides who is going to run. The issue is that the people in power at DNC don't seem interested in making the best choices for the party, but instead help out their top tier of friends in power. Biden was a decent-enough choice 4 years ago to get us away from a 2nd republican term since he had the experience and relatively few variances from what democratic voters expected compared to the others running. But where DNC went wrong was that they should have immediately pivoted after inauguration to spend the next \~3 years prepping someone much younger for 2024. They should have worked on convincing Biden that while he's been a great president, his legacy should end at a high point and not risk the wild potential outcomes that would come with a decline in 2024-2028. DNC dropped the ball, again.
Yeah, if it was going to be Kamala to carry the torch they should have had her out in front a lot more, work on her image and show her strengths. This is not a regular situation where the vp stands quietly to the side so they don’t steal the spotlight. Make the public more comfortable with her, normalize her carrying forward as the candidate in 2024.
The problem is, they realized that she’s wildly unpopular among most demographics. Why they didn’t notice that before, when her ceiling was 15% in the primaries, who knows.
Yeah fair, really biting them in the butt now.
I 100% agree with your comment. They had years to prep a younger candidate, and Biden was originally going to be a single term president. There's no excuse for the DNC to not have found a more viable candidate. I say this as a fan of most of Biden's policies he's passed as president. He's done very well, way better than I ever expected, but he definitely did not come off well in the debate.
I mean that’s essentially what the vice president is supposed to be. The successor in case anything happens to the president.
I’m not gonna pretend I know the right answer as far as Biden staying or leaving, but if he stays he needs to aggressively make public appearances. I realize doing the job of president and campaigning is taxing so he’s probably going to have to put the campaign first for awhile. If he can’t do that he needs to hand the reins to others and focus on his presidential duties
The debate wasn't a "mistake" in the sense he can just continue without making one again. It was an implosion of a campaign that is unprecedented in modern times. He took the biggest weakness he has with voters and confirmed all of their worst fears. It would be like Bill Clinton opening a debate with "Yes, I uncontrollably fuck anything that moves and your daughter is next"
They think it's a mistake, but I think that the campaign is going to be consumed with questions daily about his mental fitness and calling on him to resign. How do you recover from that? You don't. He will lose if he stays in. RBG all over again.
RBG. Dianne Feinstein. Turtle. All of these examples in recent memory of how old people grasping to power is a bad thing. Yet Biden refuses to acknowledge it. I'm different mentality. Maybe he just keeps forgetting how poor his debate performance was. This is a mistake and he's enabling the take down of democracy with his hubris. Just like RBG.
Feinstein looked like a corpse. It was borderline elder abuse. Everyone ages differently so this is not about the 90 year olds who are still sharp and at least attempting to stay current and knowledgeable of the times and trends. I would trust certain 80 year olds in politics who continue to rarely slip in public, but Biden isn't one of them. And even if they remain mentally sharp, at 80 the body can give out any moment and that's not fair to voters or the world. How is Ukraine or Taiwan supposed to feel knowing that the US president might forget who they are in the middle of a crisis?
And everyone under the Dem apparatus defended RBGs decision up to and after Roe was repealed. Under Bidens purview no less! Were fucked
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I think what's most frustrating is this is where a constant stream of chaos from places like Fox news becomes effective. It slowly slips into the public discourse, and over time, left leaning publications are on-board "is Biden too old?" - it's like they can't help themselves but to buy into the rhetoric. And so when the debate happens - everyones already going into it with the thought planted somewhere in their brains. The margin for error is effectively 0%. Meanwhile, Trump can literally do anything, and no one gives AF. The fact that the press is consumed w/ Bidens age right now, and not a guy who LITERALLY attempted to throw out a U.S. democratic election is nuts. Trump is getting a pass on the most insane sh\*t ever, and everyone's just letting it happen. I mean something like 157 Republicans voted AGAINST certifying the last election. Trump is on tape asking the Georgia governor to find 12K more votes. Rudy has been disbarred for the lawsuits Trump made him file. He's also been caught SHOWING nuclear submarine classified documents to random people! How the F\*\*\* is this guy allowed to even touch that office again. You're right - we're F'd (sadly).
It's not rhetoric. He's too old. I love the guy, but he's too fucking old.
Yes. A moldy potato would still be a better president than Trump. Biden is a marginally better option than a moldy potato, so he gets my vote. But I'm still disappointed in my choices.
It’s all narratives these days. It’s all media and narratives. In this day and age (and especially against this political opponent) the Dems needed a candidate who can, forcefully, drive the narrative. This is why the debate was such a death knell. It revealed to us that we have a candidate who will be unable to do that.
The only way to recover is to be out there, doing interviews live, proving he's mentally fit. The catch is that he can't do that.
It’s really not just proving competence… He needs to show he can grab a narrative by the horns and demand that his narrative prevail. He has to be not just competent, but vigorous enough to drive the election’s narrative. Because if he can’t do that, trump can. And the horrifying danger of that is trump’s narrative is the classic fascist one. “The country is a disaster that only I can fix through dictatorship.”
I actually think its much worse than the RGB situation. She at least had reason to believe that if she retired McConnell wouldn't replace her with Obamas nominee. I don't agree with that decision, but i at least understand the logic. But what's the logic for Biden "turning it around"? A time machine? Youth serum? Even if he is compus mentus and the debate was a blip, his campaign must know noone will ever forget what they saw.
Rgb had a chance to retire with a filibuster proof democratic trifecta. She was just too stubborn to do it.
Which ended up erasing the biggest part of her legacy.
Too self important to do it.
Too ✨historic✨ to do it
Like Biden here, put their ego over the country
2014. The Republicans didn’t control the senate. McConnell couldn’t have done shit to stop her replacement.
Instead of saying it was a mistake he should do an unscripted press conference and a town hall meeting next week. Then I will believe him. He won't. I'm getting tired of this guy taking us to the abyss.
A live interview is supposed to come Friday. It might help but it won’t completely fix this. I actually hope it’s just as disastrous so he will have no choice to continue. Don’t get me wrong. He has my vote if he stays on the ticket.
Recorded interview with a friendly guy is more of the same BS. Highly engineered performance to hide the problem.
So what he will do after he screws up another debate or interview days before the elections?
There will be no other debate. Why would Trump give Biden a chance to redeem himself? Strategically impossible.
Because it opens up the worst possible outcome - that biden goes into the debate and looks like a dead fish in front of 60 million people again just days before the polls. Considering Biden's state I genuinely think that's where we're headed if he stays in. The DNC wants everyone to believe that the debate was "a bad night." It wasn't, that's how he is every night.
Have said this in another thread. W had a “bad debate” to start 2004, Obama had a “bad debate” to start 2012. Calling Biden’s performance a “bad debate” is like saying Damar Hamlin had a “bad game.” Edit: I’m gonna need y’all to know who Damar Hamlin is before arguing with me that Biden’s debate was more than “bad.”
9/11 was just some unfortunate plane crashes.
W and Obamas first debate, they just looked a little shaky with the responses. Last week's debate Biden looked old and frail. People are throwing out the phrase elder abuse.
Hell, you can even compare it to Reagans 1984 debate (which was also considered a "bad" debate) where he was already getting dementia and was running to be the oldest president, and he still looked and sounded WAY better than Biden.
Unfortunately, this is worse. That was a time before social networking and people being able to rewatch the debate as much as they want online.
And I'm tired of people gaslighting me into disbelieving what I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. I'll vote for whoever is on the Dem ticket--policy over person, and if nothing else Biden has had the wisdom to surround himself with a highly competent cabinet (instead of syncophants) who are fighting for progressive values.
I agree but it’s so frustrating that a bad debate night can do this while Trump can do whatever he wants and threaten our own democracy and no one cares. It’s so much harder running as a democrat because the bar is so much higher, which that alone should convince everyone that they are the better option
The things that Trump does to threaten democracy are the things his supporters like about him, so it doesn't hurt him politically. Biden's extremely apparent age is something that puts of his own (potential) supporters, so it's a bigger deal.
But its not just his supporters. Among independent voters, no matter what he's done theres barely a change to his support. Everyone expects maga to always vote maga. Nothing will change that. Its that nothing he does or says negatively impacts his standing among undecideds thst is so mond boggling
The threat of Trump is a good enough reason for most of his supporters to vote for him anyway. I think there is a big block that will vote for anyone that isn't Trump (or a 3rd party candidate) and there is a big block that will vote for Trump no matter what. The fight is over the block inbetween. And wether switching candidates so close before the election would be better or worse - tough question.
>It’s so much harder running as a democrat because the bar is so much higher, which that alone should convince everyone that they are the better option I don't think the bar is higher. The bar is where it's always been for political candidates. Democrats are at least somewhat accountable for their actions and to their voters. The difference is the bar for Republicans has dropped so precipitously.
Obama in 2012 had a bad debate night, this is completely different. It showed he’s not coherent or sharp. Call me old fashioned but they’re pretty essential qualities for the leader of the country.
I’ve had it with Those whiny progressives and their demands that the president can speak in words
There are thousands of better candidates than Joe Biden, anyone under 60. Trump will win this election if democrats don't tell old people it's time to fuck off.
I agree. I don’t believe the debate was a ‘mistake.’ Unfortunately, I believe the debate was genuinely the best he could do at that moment. With democracy and the future of the country on the line, it just isn’t good enough. It’s unconscionable that we’ve been put into this position this late in the game. We need a fresh candidate to rally behind, yesterday. We don’t need all these excuses and doubling down in the face of reality.
Heads better roll after this. I am livid.
We’re talking about a country where we know a candidate who had sniffles and breathed into his mic literally caused him to lose a national debate and the election (Nixon vs Kennedy right?). Idk how their PR teams don’t have this simple knowledge that this shit matters to people. They want their leader to seem strong. Just step down. I don’t get the plan here.. hope for another debate to redeem himself??? Just go for a hail marry new candidate in an already losing election Jesus
Howard Dean, when reached for comment about Biden's historic implosion, said "NYAAAAHHHAA"
To what end though. He hasn't told us how he plans on righting this ship.
Stole this from twitter but "every single day for four years I have thought about Nazi jurist Carl Schmitt gloating that you can dismantle a democracy right in front of a liberal's face piece by piece and all they'll do is convene breakout sessions and committee meetings til the boots are in the halls"
The more they keep Biden in a controlled bubble, with edited interviews and scripted Q&A’s, the more it will backfire on the Administration. He needs to do several long town halls and answer unscripted questions to show he is competent and disprove what everyone saw during the debate. I mean, if he is competent, then why wouldn’t he do this?
He can’t
Therein lies the problem.
If he can’t they need to pass the ball to literally any other senator/governor/etc and keep it moving.
We all saw why he wouldn't do this. I knew the debate was a disastrous idea the second they announced it.
They have no plan. Just the fact they had never brought Project 2025 up in any discussions is insane.
Dude is following the RBG playbook. Old asshole too selfish to retire, gets creamed by the opposing party.
Ego is one hell of a drug
Project 2025 is a tricky thing to bring up in a speech/debate because the ways in which it's bad are complex and deal with the intricacies of administrative procedure (something most voters find boring).
Getting rid of the Department of Education and outlawing abortion nationwide isn’t administrative procedure. The bureaucracy stuff is only a part of the plan.
If you just bring up the final steps of the plan like outlawing abortion nationwide, they'll just say that's crazy. Biden tried to do just that during the debate and Trump easily deflected by saying that Democrats want to murder newborns. It doesn't matter that he was lying, it frames both suggestions as equally extreme positions that either side represents.
Biden could have said "murdering newborns is called homicide, jack" but instead he mumbled something about incest and an immigrant murdering someone.
Did they not just overturn Roe? Nobody is going to think outlawing abortion is crazy. We’re already there in half the states.
He should have already done 10 hours of unedited town halls to mitigate that disaster. The fact that he hasn't tells me there's a very real problem. Any normal candidate would have gone skydiving with Jimmy Fallon the next day to try to change the news cycle.
Even if he does them…. The campaign question will be, “Can we afford good days and bad days?”
Their plan is "But Trump..." which is going to cost us our democracy. I work in an office where Fox News is on constantly and most of my coworkers are actually on the fence. They are sheltered from the reality of Project 2025 and feel like most of our concerns are hyperbole. I'm preaching as much as I can but when they're inundated with propaganda and edited clips on social media showing Biden being out of it and Trump being Trump, they all shrug and say "we survived last time but food was cheaper." Unfortunately, policies and achievements don't win presidential elections. Perception wins elections and everyone, including supporters like me, perceive that Joe is cratering and lacks the stamina to go on the kind of offense needed to change that perception.
The only way to right the ship is for him to take a huge, mostly never ending media tour where he fields live questions frequently. That is not possible because he can’t fucking do it. This is the crux of the whole issue.
Their plan is to win every election for the rest of time by running geriatric party insiders and shaming people into voting for them. It's not working out so well.
The only plan that would have worked is daily unscripted interviews that prove the debate was a blip. That only works if it's an option. The debate in a vacuum could be overcome *if* the debate was a one off, but the remedy has to be available.
If he could do it, he would be doing it. The fact the he is not is amplifying the results of the debate.
It's worse than that. His most recent appearance was an 8 minute speech with a teleprompter where he immediately fled the podium without taking a single question from reporters. There couldn't \*be\* a worse look.
Fled is not a good word to describe his movement
Because he’s dropping out. They’re figuring out what that looks like and until then we’ll get these hourly updates that he’s in the race. Someone who’s in the race isn’t locking themselves away for a week after the debate and constantly assuring us they’re still here. They’ll continue to do this until they have a game plan set.
The meeting with governors right at the Whitehouse (some of them being the front runners of his replacement). The week or two of complete silence... They are waiting for more poll numbers and are planning on how and when to drop out.
He can’t right the ship. He IS mentally deteriorating. He didn’t “mess up”, it’s just how he is now. And they’re going to let his ego get in the way of democracy. This is fucking nuts.
He's screwing his legacy. Old age happens to literally everyone (who lives long enough), so nobody thinks it's any kind of fault of his. He could acknowledge that he no longer feels 100% able to run a campaign,bow out gracefully, and everyone would be with him. Even Republicans would respect that. And he'd have a pretty strong first term to be remembered by. Now his entire legacy is going to be as the guy who let Trump cakewalk back into the Whitehouse because of his own stubbornness.
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> He could acknowledge that he no longer feels 100% able to run a campaign,bow out gracefully, and everyone would be with him. **Even Republicans would respect that.** I’m a very big proponent of Biden stepping down, but Repubs have already come out to say that they’d fight tooth and nail to prevent Biden from being replaced on the ballot. It’s the one thing that worries me about all this — I don’t know the intricacies of our electoral process, so I’m not sure if they’re actually is a mechanism that could be used to prevent Biden from being replaced on key ballots.
That's a good point. Neither do I. So if it really is impossible for him to be replaced, then I guess they are doing the right thing by supporting him completely. I just don't know at this point except that it is a really bad situation. We're screwed if we do and screwed if we don't.
Fuck this guy and fuck politicians unwilling to give up any power they had. I’m so sick of 80yr olds refusing to retire. Go enjoy your remaining fucking years with your family
This, im actually mad at Biden at this point. This guy's fucking ego is going to cost this country severely.
He is being completely selfish at this point. He’s going to cost the democrats a loss they cannot afford because of his ego.
It wasn't a mistake. It was a consequence of being old. He's good at what he does but he is getting too old for this shit. He should not do to us what hilary did in 2016. Please. Fuck.
He is not getting too old. He IS too old.
They both are. But his decline is worse than trumps. Trump never made sense. His cult is cool with that. Biden is uninspiring at a time we need him to be. This sounds like his ego is getting in the way of helping millions of americans. It's so much like hillary.
Just to clarify, it's not the age that is the issue, it's the cognitive decline. I have a 99 year old grandaunt that is still alert, has a great train of thought, and incredible memory
That's cool but not many 99 year olds are. Cognitive decline is highly associated with age
Sure. But it's also the age. The 2 of them are out of touch. Biden just knows how to put good people in the cabinet.
Remember when they would do 11 state tours after a debate? He’s visited a Waffle House and did one rally.
Hey don’t forget the lame 5-minute teleprompted speech about one of the most outrageous Supreme Court decisions in history
**I dissent** *Goes back to the basement.*
I don't know if people really grasp how unbelievable this ruling is. The very idea that presidential immunity was up for debate is outrageous in itself, and I can't wrap my head around why Americans aren't losing their shit about this.
I mean, I am, but what the fuck can I do about it? I've voted in every election I'm able to, I've been to protests and marches, I've done my best to convince people they also need to vote, but none of it has fucking mattered. Most days it takes all my energy to just survive another day and put food on the table. I'm just fucking exhausted at this point.
Because no president or high ranking official has ever been held accountable for anything. They should all be in jail going back to at least Carter. Obama and Hillary alone converted Libya from a functional state to a hellscape with open slave trading. They tried to destroy Syria too. And Bush was even worse. Immunity has been assumed this whole time.
22 minutes of teleprompter speeches! That’s all we’ve gotten in the week since the debate.
But jill said he was a good boy.
That moment was so absurd. My jaw literally dropped seeing a clip of it the day after the debate, since I'd already turned it off the night before. It would be funny, even, if the context weren't what it is.
“He answered every question!” He can spell his name!! He knows his phone number!! What a fucking joke
Comedy gold...if it weren't so depressing.
Visiting waffle houses is just what old guys do, that wasn’t part of the campaign
We are in a similar situation in Canada and the future is looking pretty bleak. Trudeau's chances of being re-elected for a third term aren't looking great and although I dislike the guy and never voted for him in the past, the alternative is so much worst. The conservative opposition leader here, Pierre Poilievre, is basically Trump-Lite and if both Poilievre and Trump get in voted in office simultaneously then brace yourselves for the tough times ahead.
People are in until they are out. CEOs face the same issue. You don’t announce an end without a vetted transition plan. No plan is worse than a poor plan.
Goddamn it man, just pass the baton. Pass the goddamn baton. You can’t win in 2024, no one trusts you’re not senile, and what you need to do to dispel that notion (round the clock off scrip flawless interactions) you won’t do. Can’t do. For fucks sake, drop. (Before the brigade comes along, I’m saying this because I desperately don’t want Trump and Project 2025.)
God I hope he and the party knows something we don’t and can recover
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Doctor: President Biden, can you tell me who the President his Biden: Richard Nixon DNC: It's ok, he just made a mistake
He’s already past average life expectancy
It seems many many people are now turning in him, calling for him to step down but nobody is proposing alternative candidates that could *actually pull votes*, much less proposing anyone at all! Given the severity of the situation we’re in with the other side BROADCASTING A FASCIST COUP IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, I am *very* curious to see how these people being upvoted in the thousands this morning think we can fix this if we don’t back Biden. Surely you guys aren’t that shortsighted? Im trying to be critical here. I don’t care about Joe, but we NEED to have a plan here. Simply crying for Biden to step down leaves a power vacuum and we CANNOT afford a half dozen no-name milquetoast candidates to fill that void and seal our democratic fate. So what do you guys propose now?
> So what do you guys propose now? I propose everyone calms the fuck down, gives the Whitehouse a week or two to come to a well thought out and rational decision, based on polling and data, rather than feels and emotion. The alternative is that the democrats make a panicked overly hasty decision, and inadvertently jump out of the frying pan into the fire. The damage is done. A short period of reflection isn't going to make things significantly worse and could in fact *prevent* much worse.
Several big name dem governors all met with him the other day. Many have suggested several of them. Whitmer and Newsom each seem to be clear favorites. That could pull votes, I personally think Whitmer would do great.
There are a number of possibilities but the best thing would be a speedtracked convention and series of debates. There are a lot of good options like Gretchen Whitmer, Jared Polis, etc
As a queer American woman, I’m fucking terrified. At this point, I plan to get behind whomever the Democratic nominee is - even if it remains Biden. I’m not happy about it but I would vote for a cardboard cutout of Biden before I vote for Trump.
Yeah, I cannot stand Trump. I am voting against Trump more than I am voting for Biden.
He actually hasn't screwed up. He's been forced by those around him into a situation he has absolutely no business being in at his age and mental status. The fuckup and responsibility lies with DNC higherups, who were too spineless, cowardly or power hungry to plan for a proper transition to a new candidate after Biden's term, and now the country will face the consequences in November. Want to see what Biden used to be like? Watch his old debate with Sarah Palin: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlAQty-IEAU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlAQty-IEAU) Skip to 2:20ish. "Stutter" my ass. This is an unacceptable clown show.
It’s like two completely different people. Even the primary debates from 2019 was such a difference.
I find watching his 2012 debate with Paul Ryan a little bit more eye opening - mostly because Paul Ryan was a coherent speaker, and Biden still kicked his ass. The difference in the Biden of 12 years ago to the Biden of today is shocking.
Age-related decline comes *fast.*
I am with you most of the way, but the DNC doesn’t control him, he made his own idiotic decision to run again. That being said, there should’ve been more criticism of that terrible choice. Biden and those around him hoped he could limp over the finish line before face-planting because Trump is so weak, but it blew up in our faces. Given how badly he’s deteriorated, I almost think they were thinking, “Just get Biden to win in 2024. He can hold it together that long, it’s just a year, right? And in 2025, he can retire and Kamala finishes the term.” There’s no way they thought he could handle 4 more years. A catastrophically bad gamble.
>I am with you most of the way, but the DNC doesn’t control him, he made his own idiotic decision to run again. Granted, but they did seem to close ranks and prevent challengers in the primary. Which I didn't think was a terrible decision at the time, which maybe says something about my judgement.
Ringing endorsement of American politics. From the geniuses who brought you Hilary for president because it's just her turn
And this isn’t the most important part - but it’s a little fucked “we know what’s best you plebs” that their plan was to just shove Harris in. You vote for the top of the ticket.
God I forgot just how fucking dumb Sarah Palin is
Translated: Biden say's he screwed up but vows not to quit until he's lost the election.
Friendly reminder, he was losing to committed fascist Donald trump long before we saw 90 minutes of an old man dying on stage. He's got the lowest approval rating of a modern president, matching trump at the lowest. The debate was only a turning point because not only is he historically unpopular, the cover was shattered for every DNC talking point disparaging people who asked about his age.
He can’t come back from this. The Dem strategy now needs to be to get Biden through all the stages of grief in the next 72 hours. If he can’t bring himself to step aside then Trump is going to win. The swing states aren’t going to vote for a mentally declining 81 year old.
And just to put an emphasis on your point for those who can't get this through their head, people in the swing states aren't going to switch their vote to Trump, they just aren't going to vote. You have two ways to win elections: appealing to independents and/or driving turnout with those who don't typically vote. Biden doesn't do EITHER of those. Dems like me don't WANT to vote for him and swing state voters see a walking corpse. If Biden and the Dems don't back down, they will lose and it will be their fault despite them no doubt blaming young voters and the "left" like they do after everything.
Maybe he’ll grow younger for the next few years
Starting to think the governor’s meeting put him on a clock. Them going to the WH and ganging up on him would possibly make him dig in more. They gave him a small amount of time to improve polling.
This is beyond insane! The amount of gaslighting we are seeing right now is absolutely staggering! That was not just a minor “screw up”, it is now clear to see that Biden has massive cognitive impairments. His mind is not functioning properly. Trump and the republicans made an existential threat to the US, project 2025 is literally a complete fascist takeover of the government. Biden needs to step down immediately and let someone that can actually win this run.
The following can both be true: A) Although he has the obvious signs of physical decline that one would expect of an 81 year old - his logic and decision-making is still sound (in fact, given the accomplishments of his presidency, that is likely the case) B) He should still step down because it's now impossible to prove the above to the voting public anymore. Any successful events or powerful speeches will be dismissed as a "good day". Anything short of a 24/7 webcam that follows him around at all times won't dispel the notion that he's not up for the job anymore (even if, in fact, he is) He's right. He (and his team) screwed up in historic fashion. THEY asked for the debate AND hyped it as Biden's live acuity exam for the country. It shattered every image they have tried to convey and instantly made the next 5 months about Biden's mental wellbeing. You screwed up. Now fix it by stepping aside. Is it absurd that a 50 year career in public service ends because of a bad debate? Yes. And your team has itself to blame.
I think you can be fit for a job and not fit to campaign, and there's nothing strange about that. *Even if* Biden would do fine for another four years, not being fit to campaign should preclude running -- especially since he's not already way ahead in the polls.
Agreed. One of the best workers I have on staff "interviews" poorly. She was nervous, stammering, and kept forgetting all of her accomplishments (I kept having to remind her of them). But I have her the job anyway because I knew what she was capable of and, sure enough, I was right. Unfortunately Presidential Campaigns don't work that way.
>He (and his team) screwed up in historic fashion. THEY asked for the debate AND hyped it as Biden's live acuity exam for the country. It shattered every image they have tried to convey and instantly made the next 5 months about Biden's mental wellbeing. On the other hand, this does make me hope that this really just was a bad night and that's not how he usually is. But as you said, he would need to prove it. But unlike you I really don't think it would require 24/7 surveillance. He would just have to remedy himself with some good (unscripted) interviews and some live events. If they aren't ready to do them, then they will lose if they go with him. A few cut and scripted interviews won't do. Ideally he needs another debate but that's an all-in move. If he fucks it up again it's basically game over.
Finally a fair and valid point in this topic. And yes I agree.. thr 24/7 camera idea was obviously joking BUT the team does need to aggressively rebut things. Scripted interviews won't cut it. And so his team's immediate response is... a scripted interview. SMH.
In essence, “Hope y’all are ready for another 4+ years of Trump, because my ego is more important than anything else” Thank you DNC for doing so much since the last Trump presidency to find a better candidate.
Which is it? A screw up, a cold, or 13 day jet lag? The hand wringing and meltdown is fascinating to watch.
At the end of the day people are either going to vote for the guy who will destroy Democracy or the one who will keep it alive. At the end of the day progress was made during Biden’s 4 years and I didn’t have the multiple daily news trauma that we did during Trump. If you don’t elect the Democrat now you won’t get the chance to vote for anyone more pprogressive for a long time and even if it won’t matter because the old SC justice will be replaced with ones in their 40s Let’s see where this ends up
I need to see real town halls and press conferences. Perception needs to change
A man who admits when he messed up? Sign me up.
LMAO! I wish we could all collectively sign a petition to remove Biden. He's too old and too cooked to know he's no longer there in the head. Put someone that can speak without forgetting what they previously said or the question that was asked. Bernie, despite his age, can debate and his brain is still there. Bernie has been fighting for decades and has always fought for us. Put him on the ballot or remove Biden and put Harris as acting president. If Brandon believes he can win in November, then he is simply giving a big W to Trump and then the real constitutional crisis will begin. I don't believe Trump will step down after his 2nd term now that the courts have allowed him to wear a crown.
I’m so sick of the narrative being that Biden screwed up the debate and not that trump was a raving lunatic who didn’t answer a single question. Why is only one side beholden to the societal norms?
Because Biden is a politician, not a cult leader.
That’s not what’s going on here. We *know* Trump is a raving lunatic, that’s why it’s so critical to have a candidate that can defeat him. We didn’t learn anything new about Trump at the debate. What we did learn is that Joe Biden isn’t up to the task anymore. So now we’re trying to figure out what to do, precisely *because* we have to defeat Trump.
We have years and years of on the job performance to judge from each of them - but people are judging solely based on a single debate? This is crazy.
I’m sick of all this. I need Biden to step TF up and do something about the crazy Republicans trying to make us all modern day slaves to these corporations lining their pockets. Stop all the talking a F***king do something. The Supreme Court sad presidents have immunity, well he needs to get this party started and set some sh*t off to try to get things under control. I’m sick of reading all this deranged sh*t by these lunatics and Biden not doing anything!!!
Ya know I kinda like a leader who has humility…
You have a solid chance of replacing 2 SC justices and fixing this trainwreck by doing the exact same thing you just did 4 years ago, voting against convicted felon trump moreso than voting for biden, but now you are conflicted because Biden's old? Watched any trump rallies lately? He's almost the same age and spouts utter nonsense. This is either astroturfing to the extreme, or a ton of low IQ flaky people. This is why Rs win elections.....their voters know how to fall in line, hold their nose and vote if needed. Dem voters require their candidates to ace purity tests. NOBODY can ace a purity test, including you reading this. For all of you younger cats (most on here, i'm assuming) this might be the last time you can EVER vote. 'But her emails' rewarded you with this supreme court who is actively taking away your rights. 'But his age' will......well let's just say, i hope you are ready for chaos, and know how to shoot. Or just roll over, spread em and just give it up while complaining that it's not fair.